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Caste system among South Asian Christians article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
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![]() | On 10 February 2014, it was proposed that this article be moved from Caste system among Indian Christians to Caste system among Christians. The result of the discussion was not moved. |
![]() | On 18 May 2021, it was proposed that this article be moved from Caste system among Indian Christians to Caste system among South Asian Christians. The result of the discussion was moved. |
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The result of the move request was: moved. ( closed by non-admin page mover) Elli ( talk | contribs) 22:35, 6 June 2021 (UTC)
Caste system among Indian Christians →
Caste system among South Asian Christians – As the article notes, Christian castes are also found in Sri Lanka, Nepal and Pakistan,
[1] thus it would make more sense to provide coverage to those subjects in this article. Also see
Caste system among South Asian Muslims.
Shivkarandholiya12 (
talk)
10:21, 18 May 2021 (UTC)
Re-opening RM discussion as requested by several editors. (see below section) Egsan Bacon ( talk) 14:01, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
The Igbo osu caste system is a practice of traditional religion and culture. Caste system also exists in Egypt, among the Hebrews, in China, in Japan, among the Germans, and in Russia, Spain, and Portugal (Ndulor, 2014), clearly missing out India and its neighbouring countries. Reading through the sources at caste, we see it in the context of Hinduism. VV 17:57, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
I support the move/ name change to Caste System among South Asian Christians It's more diverse and inclusive and comes with wider applicability. It will prevent tedious duplication of the same materials for each of the countries in South Asia. It's suggests a more collaborative, the move will prompt more readers to come together from other South Asian countries, to share their inputs and throw light on the modern Christianised caste system, and Indology/ Hindu culture/ Hindu civilisation. Nolicmahr ( talk) 14:16, 5 June 2021 (UTC)
@ Andrewa, Mukt, Shivkarandholiya12, Shakespeare143, and Egsan Bacon: this decision seems to have been made on the basis of one source. Shakespeare143 you wrote that the source "mentions how some Christians in Africa have a caste also."
The only relevant statement I can see in the source seems to claim is that Christian missionaries/converts came into conflict with the pre-existing osu/ohu caste system among the Igbo people, not that the "some Christians in Africa have a caste also".
"The Igbo osu caste system is a practice of traditional religion and culture. ... When Christianity came, the missionaries condemned human sacrifice and outcast system. Both Osu and Ohu and other converts started to worship God together in the same church, for in the sight of God, all men are equal. The traditionalists frowned at it but the new Christian converts did not mind having Christian fellowship with the outcasts."
What have I missed? Doug Weller talk 18:33, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
User:RegentsPark, I hardly think that the mention can be called "trivial"; note this article, titled Caste away: The ongoing struggle of Punjabi Christians, published by Dawn, by Asif Aqeel and Sama Faruqi, which states:
In 1947, there were two types of Christians in what was then known as West Pakistan: landless, unskilled, poor labourers and peasants living in villages across central Punjab, and educated Christian professionals, mostly Anglo-Indians and Goans, who lived in big cities such as Karachi and Lahore. The former are generally converts to Christianity from low-caste Hindus and the latter from upper-caste Hindus as well as Muslims.
The Christians did not own the land. It belonged to the government – recorded as shamlaat-e-deh, the extension of the village land earmarked for collective usage.
Anglo-Indians and Goans immediately faced discrimination in jobs and business opportunities in the newly created Pakistan. Their rather privileged social status under the Raj – that prized their English language skills and British cultural mannerisms – started waning. Punjabi Christians, on the other hand, were always treated with contempt due to their caste and their dark skin.
Clearly, the caste of the Christian affects how they are treated by society at large in Pakistan. Additionally, there is a phenomenon in Nepal, in which Christians enter into mixed marriages with others of their same caste, rather than their co-religionists. Both of these things make this article within the scope of South Asia and not just India. I hope this helps. With regards, Anupam Talk 22:39, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
User:Anupam has now attempted a TR, but they do not seem to have attempted to revert the move themselves, as suggested by both myself and the instructions there, and the request is malformed. So we have still more delays.
Would anyone object to me requesting a TR Caste system among South Asian Christians → Caste system among Christians myself? It now seems the best way forward to me. Then we can proceed with requesting a reopen of the RM, or going to MR if they reject that request. But we need to clear the air here first IMO. Andrewa ( talk) 22:21, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
It is suggested above that the one source cited is not adequate for broadening the scope of this article.
I do not agree for two reasons.
Firstly, this appears to be a reliable secondary source. The material can therefore be included in the article, particularly but not only if it is rescoped.
Secondly, if there are other sources that dispute this claim, then they should also be included. We cover all properly sourced views where there is controversy. But no such sources have been suggested that I can see. Andrewa ( talk) 21:31, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
The above is an incomprehensible mess, which is confusing both my bot and myself. Researching the page history:
– Whoa boys. I'm going to need some time to digest this. – wbm1058 ( talk) 19:26, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
When this page is moved, care should be taken to move subpages as well, such as Talk:Caste system among Indian Christians/Archive 1 so the archive box doesn't red-link. – wbm1058 ( talk) 19:49, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
The article says
The Saint Thomas Syrian Christians claim to derive status within the caste system from the tradition that they were descendants of Assyrians, Jews and that they were Upper castes
Since this is contested, please provide the quote from a source that says so. Lembit Staan ( talk) 17:53, 20 June 2021 (UTC)
User:Lembit Staan, Hello I had shared the most reliable sources available, those are very elaborated essays on the Saint Thomas Syrian Christian community. This souces presented here could be helpful.
Here in this news publication it is said that:-
"The most popular claim is that their story begins around 52 AD when Saint Thomas, the disciple of Jesus Christ landed at Maliankara near Cranganore and spread Christianity. It is believed that he converted a good number of the local inhabitants in present-day Kerala, mostly the upper caste Nambudiri Brahmins and also established seven churches in Kerala (Brown 1956)."( Micahhadar ( talk) 02:42, 22 June 2021 (UTC))
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Caste system among South Asian Christians article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1 |
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | On 10 February 2014, it was proposed that this article be moved from Caste system among Indian Christians to Caste system among Christians. The result of the discussion was not moved. |
![]() | On 18 May 2021, it was proposed that this article be moved from Caste system among Indian Christians to Caste system among South Asian Christians. The result of the discussion was moved. |
|
|
The result of the move request was: moved. ( closed by non-admin page mover) Elli ( talk | contribs) 22:35, 6 June 2021 (UTC)
Caste system among Indian Christians →
Caste system among South Asian Christians – As the article notes, Christian castes are also found in Sri Lanka, Nepal and Pakistan,
[1] thus it would make more sense to provide coverage to those subjects in this article. Also see
Caste system among South Asian Muslims.
Shivkarandholiya12 (
talk)
10:21, 18 May 2021 (UTC)
Re-opening RM discussion as requested by several editors. (see below section) Egsan Bacon ( talk) 14:01, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
The Igbo osu caste system is a practice of traditional religion and culture. Caste system also exists in Egypt, among the Hebrews, in China, in Japan, among the Germans, and in Russia, Spain, and Portugal (Ndulor, 2014), clearly missing out India and its neighbouring countries. Reading through the sources at caste, we see it in the context of Hinduism. VV 17:57, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
I support the move/ name change to Caste System among South Asian Christians It's more diverse and inclusive and comes with wider applicability. It will prevent tedious duplication of the same materials for each of the countries in South Asia. It's suggests a more collaborative, the move will prompt more readers to come together from other South Asian countries, to share their inputs and throw light on the modern Christianised caste system, and Indology/ Hindu culture/ Hindu civilisation. Nolicmahr ( talk) 14:16, 5 June 2021 (UTC)
@ Andrewa, Mukt, Shivkarandholiya12, Shakespeare143, and Egsan Bacon: this decision seems to have been made on the basis of one source. Shakespeare143 you wrote that the source "mentions how some Christians in Africa have a caste also."
The only relevant statement I can see in the source seems to claim is that Christian missionaries/converts came into conflict with the pre-existing osu/ohu caste system among the Igbo people, not that the "some Christians in Africa have a caste also".
"The Igbo osu caste system is a practice of traditional religion and culture. ... When Christianity came, the missionaries condemned human sacrifice and outcast system. Both Osu and Ohu and other converts started to worship God together in the same church, for in the sight of God, all men are equal. The traditionalists frowned at it but the new Christian converts did not mind having Christian fellowship with the outcasts."
What have I missed? Doug Weller talk 18:33, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
User:RegentsPark, I hardly think that the mention can be called "trivial"; note this article, titled Caste away: The ongoing struggle of Punjabi Christians, published by Dawn, by Asif Aqeel and Sama Faruqi, which states:
In 1947, there were two types of Christians in what was then known as West Pakistan: landless, unskilled, poor labourers and peasants living in villages across central Punjab, and educated Christian professionals, mostly Anglo-Indians and Goans, who lived in big cities such as Karachi and Lahore. The former are generally converts to Christianity from low-caste Hindus and the latter from upper-caste Hindus as well as Muslims.
The Christians did not own the land. It belonged to the government – recorded as shamlaat-e-deh, the extension of the village land earmarked for collective usage.
Anglo-Indians and Goans immediately faced discrimination in jobs and business opportunities in the newly created Pakistan. Their rather privileged social status under the Raj – that prized their English language skills and British cultural mannerisms – started waning. Punjabi Christians, on the other hand, were always treated with contempt due to their caste and their dark skin.
Clearly, the caste of the Christian affects how they are treated by society at large in Pakistan. Additionally, there is a phenomenon in Nepal, in which Christians enter into mixed marriages with others of their same caste, rather than their co-religionists. Both of these things make this article within the scope of South Asia and not just India. I hope this helps. With regards, Anupam Talk 22:39, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
User:Anupam has now attempted a TR, but they do not seem to have attempted to revert the move themselves, as suggested by both myself and the instructions there, and the request is malformed. So we have still more delays.
Would anyone object to me requesting a TR Caste system among South Asian Christians → Caste system among Christians myself? It now seems the best way forward to me. Then we can proceed with requesting a reopen of the RM, or going to MR if they reject that request. But we need to clear the air here first IMO. Andrewa ( talk) 22:21, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
It is suggested above that the one source cited is not adequate for broadening the scope of this article.
I do not agree for two reasons.
Firstly, this appears to be a reliable secondary source. The material can therefore be included in the article, particularly but not only if it is rescoped.
Secondly, if there are other sources that dispute this claim, then they should also be included. We cover all properly sourced views where there is controversy. But no such sources have been suggested that I can see. Andrewa ( talk) 21:31, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
The above is an incomprehensible mess, which is confusing both my bot and myself. Researching the page history:
– Whoa boys. I'm going to need some time to digest this. – wbm1058 ( talk) 19:26, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
When this page is moved, care should be taken to move subpages as well, such as Talk:Caste system among Indian Christians/Archive 1 so the archive box doesn't red-link. – wbm1058 ( talk) 19:49, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
The article says
The Saint Thomas Syrian Christians claim to derive status within the caste system from the tradition that they were descendants of Assyrians, Jews and that they were Upper castes
Since this is contested, please provide the quote from a source that says so. Lembit Staan ( talk) 17:53, 20 June 2021 (UTC)
User:Lembit Staan, Hello I had shared the most reliable sources available, those are very elaborated essays on the Saint Thomas Syrian Christian community. This souces presented here could be helpful.
Here in this news publication it is said that:-
"The most popular claim is that their story begins around 52 AD when Saint Thomas, the disciple of Jesus Christ landed at Maliankara near Cranganore and spread Christianity. It is believed that he converted a good number of the local inhabitants in present-day Kerala, mostly the upper caste Nambudiri Brahmins and also established seven churches in Kerala (Brown 1956)."( Micahhadar ( talk) 02:42, 22 June 2021 (UTC))