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Someone who knows more about this shoudl help clarify some of these facts. The website source linked here contains a very brief description in broken English.
Croatia was part of Yugoslavia at the time and didn't participate in the battle as a separate combatant. -- DIREKTOR ( TALK) 06:29, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
Churchill and Roosevelt didn't recognize them until November (personally, I see this as deliberate nitpicking o your part), but other Allied powers such as the USSR did. It is generally accepted that world war 2 had two, not three sides. If one was not the Axis, and was actually fighting against them, he logically belonged to the other side. -- DIREKTOR ( TALK) 21:20, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
Of course. -- DIREKTOR ( TALK) 22:54, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
! This is, naturally, not my opinion: the Chetniks were indeed fighting openly for the Axis by the Fifth Offensive. This is the main reason they lost international support weeks later. For sources I suggest you refer to the Chetniks article and the OKW reports. -- DIREKTOR ( TALK) 09:39, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
I dont why is flag of Bosnia and Herzegovina on axis side... Bosnia and Herzegovina formed as statehood only in november 25. 1943, after Sutjeska Battle... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.238.195.242 ( talk) 21:10, 26 December 2010 (UTC)
30000 axis casualties and 6000 allied ^^ i guess all writers of these funny arcticels are from this area , arent they ? "the skilled yugoslavien soldiers" ... can u stop writing such bullshit figures ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by HROThomas ( talk • contribs) 22:46, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
if someone overseeing the article could plese correct this one, as they were not ss but regular wermacht volunteers http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/369th_%28Croat%29_Infantry_Division Kolpo. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.178.197.47 ( talk) 19:21, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
As there were no objections since I posted the comment I removed the SS marking myself, they were not Waffen SS but foreign Wermacht "volunteers"... -- Kolpo-san ( talk) 17:18, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
Following agreement here ( Talk:Battle_of_Kozara), I am moving this article to 'Case Black' per the German name. Please read the discussion for reasoning. The scope of the article will not change. Peacemaker67 ( talk) 03:04, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
Jozo Tomasevich says in his work "The Chetniks" (page 251 and 255, note 164):
This work of Jozo Tomasevich is already used in this article and many other related articles so I guess it meets the requests of WP:RS for this topic. Any thoughts?-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 22:27, 23 August 2012 (UTC)
I found German report about this operation ( link to Serbian language translation). It says that this operation to destroy Chetniks and Partisans (za uništenje četnika (srpsko-crnogorskih nacionalista) i komunista) was conducted since 1 May 1943. In period between 1st and 12th May Germans prepared and concentrated their forces (Pripreme i koncentracija snaga od 1 — 12. 5. 43.) and then captured Šahovići and Kolašin and broke trough into mountain Sinjajevina in period 13-19 May. (Zauzimanje Šahovića i Kolašina. Prodor u planinu Sinjajevinu od 13. do 19. 5). At the end of this report Chetniks are presented as captured in this operation. Chetniks are not mentioned in the text of this article. -- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 15:15, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
The Germans planned Operation Schwarz with the Chetniks as the primary object, in full secrecy, so that even the ...-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 07:17, 24 September 2019 (UTC)
The Germans planned Operation Schwarz with the Chetniks as the primary object, in full secrecy, so that even the Italians were not informed about it until the last moment, in mid-May when the formidable military machine organized by Generals Alexander Lerh and Rudolf Luters had already began moving.-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 08:11, 24 September 2019 (UTC)
However, the Germans almost immediately initiated "Operation Schwartz", which inter alia aimed at destroying the JVUO.
Операција "Шварц" није изведена само због ликвидације комуниста, већ, рекло би се, у првом реду због ликвидације четника Драже Михаиловића, јер су комунисти, у случају искрцавања савезника на Јадранску обалу, били спремни да се туку против њих на страни Немаца.-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 08:21, 24 September 2019 (UTC)
M. J. Milazzo offers the following assessment of Tito's position in the spring of 1943: "With practically all of his forces outside of the German operation zone and the Italians obviously unenthusiastic about fighting anybody, Tito saw his chance and seized it. ...In this same period the "chief goal" of the German Brandenburg Regiment was the capture of Mihailovich and the destruction of his staff. Deakin also concedes that "during the next critical six weeks, Tito's forces concentrated with impunity, on carrying out the same task as the Germans themselves had outlined in Operation 'Schwarz'- the liquidation of the Mihailovic movement, and for the same reasons - to control the hinterland of Hercegovina and Montenegro in anticipation of Allied landing.
Large concentrations of Chetniks, including those supported by Italians, formed a constant threat to German forces in the event of an Allied landing, and the Commander-in-Chief, South-east, directed that Operation SCHWARZ, under the Commander of Troops in Croatia, be undertaken in May and June to destroy the Chetniks in Hercegovina and Montenegro.-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 10:57, 24 September 2019 (UTC)
-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 09:09, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
There is a major fact neglected by this article but very important for placing the subject in context:
Of course, since the Chetniks were known as pro-Western and thus in the case of a Western Allied landing on the Adriatic coast of Yugoslavia would surely have turned their arms against the Germans and Italians, it was necessary for the Axis powers to have this possibility in mind and keep a certain number of Italian and German troops in readiness for it. However, the Italians and the Germans never saw eye to eye on policy toward the Chetniks. From the German- Italian discussions of this problem one can draw the conclusion that the Italians wanted to use the Chetniks as much as possible to dispose of the Partisans, after which they planned to dispose of the Chetniks. The Germans, on the other hand, until the Italian collapse and apart from the "live and let live" agreements in eastern and northwestern Bosnia, chose not to collaborate with the Chetniks and instead followed a policy of disarming them. In the event of a Western Allied landing in Yugoslavia they wanted to have the Chetniks out of the way beforehand. Thus, for example, on May 14-16, 1943, the Germans disarmed about 2,000 Montenegrin Chetniks of Pavle Djurišič.
-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 07:42, 17 September 2012 (UTC)
It would be good if someone would edit File:Map Operation Schwarz.JPG and remove the text "Bosniac-Croat Federation" and "Republika Srpska" because they're anachronistic. A note should also be added to explain that the borders are of the Socialist Republics established soon after (but probably not as early as 1943). -- Joy [shallot] ( talk) 14:00, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
9.1.2014 When discussing a war, please provide some lead up or reason. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Katyids ( talk • contribs) 17:30, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
This comment has been largely copied from my talk page, as the editor involved has continued to revert my removal of it from this article, and has not engaged in discussion on this talk page or responded on my talk page.
Vojska.net is basically a gaming site, not "a reliable, third-party, published source with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy", per WP:RS. It does have some "military history" information on it, but of the many pages on vojska.net regarding Yugoslav/NDH/German etc orders of battle, only a very small percentage even contain information about where the information on that page is drawn from (ie the sources it uses). There is no footnoting at all. The author of vojska.net does not claim any academic qualifications (so far as I am aware). The lack of sources, footnoting, academic qualifications of the author, or any indication that it has a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy, or is reliable are all reasons why it does not meet WP:RS. This cannot be dismissed as "my POV", it is an assertion based on the observable facts regarding the website, and if an editor thinks it is reliable, then a contrary view would need to show that the site was in fact reliable and had a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. No such assertion has been made, merely a suggestion that we should "compromise". The reason that "fanboi" websites are not considered reliable is because...they don't meet WP standards for sources. In that respect vojska.net is no different to axishistory and other similar websites, which really fall into the "fanboi" category. It would be far more suitable to use a primary source like German records, than a "fanboi" website. At least those primary records are part of a national archival collection. In the case of casualty figures, which vary wildly between the German records and the Partisan ones, in-line attribution is appropriate. Regards, Peacemaker67 ( send... over) 04:02, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
Contrary to your assertion, I DID respond at your talk page but you continued to be of an opposing opinion so we remained at an impasse. EkoGraf ( talk) 10:07, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
It says casualties were 2/3 killed and wounded, but then says up to 7543 killed. Then in the bulk text, it states "In total there were 7,543 partisan casualties, more than a third of the initial force."
1) So were there 7543 killed, no wounded or 7543 casualties?
2) And if it was 7543 casualties, this means there were 1/3 killed wounded rather than 2/3 killed and wounded.
I have no source information available, so I don't want to change this without really understanding what the truth is.
But as it is written now, doesn't really gel together.
I propose someone who has access to the source info to please clarify and update.
Fscb06 (
talk)
11:04, 30 March 2020 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Case Black article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Someone who knows more about this shoudl help clarify some of these facts. The website source linked here contains a very brief description in broken English.
Croatia was part of Yugoslavia at the time and didn't participate in the battle as a separate combatant. -- DIREKTOR ( TALK) 06:29, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
Churchill and Roosevelt didn't recognize them until November (personally, I see this as deliberate nitpicking o your part), but other Allied powers such as the USSR did. It is generally accepted that world war 2 had two, not three sides. If one was not the Axis, and was actually fighting against them, he logically belonged to the other side. -- DIREKTOR ( TALK) 21:20, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
Of course. -- DIREKTOR ( TALK) 22:54, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
! This is, naturally, not my opinion: the Chetniks were indeed fighting openly for the Axis by the Fifth Offensive. This is the main reason they lost international support weeks later. For sources I suggest you refer to the Chetniks article and the OKW reports. -- DIREKTOR ( TALK) 09:39, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
I dont why is flag of Bosnia and Herzegovina on axis side... Bosnia and Herzegovina formed as statehood only in november 25. 1943, after Sutjeska Battle... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.238.195.242 ( talk) 21:10, 26 December 2010 (UTC)
30000 axis casualties and 6000 allied ^^ i guess all writers of these funny arcticels are from this area , arent they ? "the skilled yugoslavien soldiers" ... can u stop writing such bullshit figures ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by HROThomas ( talk • contribs) 22:46, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
if someone overseeing the article could plese correct this one, as they were not ss but regular wermacht volunteers http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/369th_%28Croat%29_Infantry_Division Kolpo. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.178.197.47 ( talk) 19:21, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
As there were no objections since I posted the comment I removed the SS marking myself, they were not Waffen SS but foreign Wermacht "volunteers"... -- Kolpo-san ( talk) 17:18, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
Following agreement here ( Talk:Battle_of_Kozara), I am moving this article to 'Case Black' per the German name. Please read the discussion for reasoning. The scope of the article will not change. Peacemaker67 ( talk) 03:04, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
Jozo Tomasevich says in his work "The Chetniks" (page 251 and 255, note 164):
This work of Jozo Tomasevich is already used in this article and many other related articles so I guess it meets the requests of WP:RS for this topic. Any thoughts?-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 22:27, 23 August 2012 (UTC)
I found German report about this operation ( link to Serbian language translation). It says that this operation to destroy Chetniks and Partisans (za uništenje četnika (srpsko-crnogorskih nacionalista) i komunista) was conducted since 1 May 1943. In period between 1st and 12th May Germans prepared and concentrated their forces (Pripreme i koncentracija snaga od 1 — 12. 5. 43.) and then captured Šahovići and Kolašin and broke trough into mountain Sinjajevina in period 13-19 May. (Zauzimanje Šahovića i Kolašina. Prodor u planinu Sinjajevinu od 13. do 19. 5). At the end of this report Chetniks are presented as captured in this operation. Chetniks are not mentioned in the text of this article. -- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 15:15, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
The Germans planned Operation Schwarz with the Chetniks as the primary object, in full secrecy, so that even the ...-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 07:17, 24 September 2019 (UTC)
The Germans planned Operation Schwarz with the Chetniks as the primary object, in full secrecy, so that even the Italians were not informed about it until the last moment, in mid-May when the formidable military machine organized by Generals Alexander Lerh and Rudolf Luters had already began moving.-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 08:11, 24 September 2019 (UTC)
However, the Germans almost immediately initiated "Operation Schwartz", which inter alia aimed at destroying the JVUO.
Операција "Шварц" није изведена само због ликвидације комуниста, већ, рекло би се, у првом реду због ликвидације четника Драже Михаиловића, јер су комунисти, у случају искрцавања савезника на Јадранску обалу, били спремни да се туку против њих на страни Немаца.-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 08:21, 24 September 2019 (UTC)
M. J. Milazzo offers the following assessment of Tito's position in the spring of 1943: "With practically all of his forces outside of the German operation zone and the Italians obviously unenthusiastic about fighting anybody, Tito saw his chance and seized it. ...In this same period the "chief goal" of the German Brandenburg Regiment was the capture of Mihailovich and the destruction of his staff. Deakin also concedes that "during the next critical six weeks, Tito's forces concentrated with impunity, on carrying out the same task as the Germans themselves had outlined in Operation 'Schwarz'- the liquidation of the Mihailovic movement, and for the same reasons - to control the hinterland of Hercegovina and Montenegro in anticipation of Allied landing.
Large concentrations of Chetniks, including those supported by Italians, formed a constant threat to German forces in the event of an Allied landing, and the Commander-in-Chief, South-east, directed that Operation SCHWARZ, under the Commander of Troops in Croatia, be undertaken in May and June to destroy the Chetniks in Hercegovina and Montenegro.-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 10:57, 24 September 2019 (UTC)
-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 09:09, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
There is a major fact neglected by this article but very important for placing the subject in context:
Of course, since the Chetniks were known as pro-Western and thus in the case of a Western Allied landing on the Adriatic coast of Yugoslavia would surely have turned their arms against the Germans and Italians, it was necessary for the Axis powers to have this possibility in mind and keep a certain number of Italian and German troops in readiness for it. However, the Italians and the Germans never saw eye to eye on policy toward the Chetniks. From the German- Italian discussions of this problem one can draw the conclusion that the Italians wanted to use the Chetniks as much as possible to dispose of the Partisans, after which they planned to dispose of the Chetniks. The Germans, on the other hand, until the Italian collapse and apart from the "live and let live" agreements in eastern and northwestern Bosnia, chose not to collaborate with the Chetniks and instead followed a policy of disarming them. In the event of a Western Allied landing in Yugoslavia they wanted to have the Chetniks out of the way beforehand. Thus, for example, on May 14-16, 1943, the Germans disarmed about 2,000 Montenegrin Chetniks of Pavle Djurišič.
-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 07:42, 17 September 2012 (UTC)
It would be good if someone would edit File:Map Operation Schwarz.JPG and remove the text "Bosniac-Croat Federation" and "Republika Srpska" because they're anachronistic. A note should also be added to explain that the borders are of the Socialist Republics established soon after (but probably not as early as 1943). -- Joy [shallot] ( talk) 14:00, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
9.1.2014 When discussing a war, please provide some lead up or reason. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Katyids ( talk • contribs) 17:30, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
This comment has been largely copied from my talk page, as the editor involved has continued to revert my removal of it from this article, and has not engaged in discussion on this talk page or responded on my talk page.
Vojska.net is basically a gaming site, not "a reliable, third-party, published source with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy", per WP:RS. It does have some "military history" information on it, but of the many pages on vojska.net regarding Yugoslav/NDH/German etc orders of battle, only a very small percentage even contain information about where the information on that page is drawn from (ie the sources it uses). There is no footnoting at all. The author of vojska.net does not claim any academic qualifications (so far as I am aware). The lack of sources, footnoting, academic qualifications of the author, or any indication that it has a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy, or is reliable are all reasons why it does not meet WP:RS. This cannot be dismissed as "my POV", it is an assertion based on the observable facts regarding the website, and if an editor thinks it is reliable, then a contrary view would need to show that the site was in fact reliable and had a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. No such assertion has been made, merely a suggestion that we should "compromise". The reason that "fanboi" websites are not considered reliable is because...they don't meet WP standards for sources. In that respect vojska.net is no different to axishistory and other similar websites, which really fall into the "fanboi" category. It would be far more suitable to use a primary source like German records, than a "fanboi" website. At least those primary records are part of a national archival collection. In the case of casualty figures, which vary wildly between the German records and the Partisan ones, in-line attribution is appropriate. Regards, Peacemaker67 ( send... over) 04:02, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
Contrary to your assertion, I DID respond at your talk page but you continued to be of an opposing opinion so we remained at an impasse. EkoGraf ( talk) 10:07, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
It says casualties were 2/3 killed and wounded, but then says up to 7543 killed. Then in the bulk text, it states "In total there were 7,543 partisan casualties, more than a third of the initial force."
1) So were there 7543 killed, no wounded or 7543 casualties?
2) And if it was 7543 casualties, this means there were 1/3 killed wounded rather than 2/3 killed and wounded.
I have no source information available, so I don't want to change this without really understanding what the truth is.
But as it is written now, doesn't really gel together.
I propose someone who has access to the source info to please clarify and update.
Fscb06 (
talk)
11:04, 30 March 2020 (UTC)