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Archive 1 |
After Porgy and Bess I believe this should be the next opera FA. After all, it is the most performed opera in the world, so why not? I have started adding the structure, and will be continually adding to it.
-- Alexs letterbox 07:42, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
The first man of genius to recognize Bizet at his true value was undoubtedly Tchaikovsky. A pupil of his, Vladimir Shilovsky, had been present at the first performance of Carmen and immediately sent him the score. In the late autumn of 1875 Tchaikovsky came to Paris with his brother Modeste, Carmen was dragging out a miserable existence at the Opera-Comique and was just on the point of disappearing from the repertory for no fewer than eight years. Modeste Tchaikovsky declares that his brother was in a state of intense nervous excitement after the performance of Carmen. "Peter Ilich has never been so completely carried away by any piece of modern music as by Carmen", he writes. He adds that the news of Bizet's death tended to increase his brother's almost unhealthy passion for the opera. Tchaikovsky's admiration for Bizet steadily grew. Five years later he wrote that Carmen was "a masterpiece in the most complete sense of the word; one of those rare works which will some day most vividly reflect the aspirations of a whole generation. What a wonderful subject!" he adds. "I am convinced that ten years hence Carmen will be the most popular opera in the world." Tchaikovsky's enthusiasm never waned. He never tired of a music that is "so fascinating in its simplicity, so full of vitality, so sincere" that he remembered every note of it. He regarded Bizet as head and shoulders above his French contemporaries. The next man of genius to realize the true significance of Bizet's work was Wagner himself. He was present at a performance of Carmen in Vienna in November 1875. He is credited with the remark, made at the end of the performance : "Thank God, here at last is somebody who has imagination." Hans von Bulow writes : "Wagner and Brahms vied with each other in extolling Bizet's masterpiece". No contemporary opera produced so deep an impression on the ageing composer as Carmen. He regarded it as the starting-point of a renaissance of French dramatic music, revitalized by popular song. It is interesting to note that his favourite piece was the Micaela-Don Josh duet-which is generally regarded as the most conventional number in the whole opera. He delighted in "the fresh naivety" of which he considered perfectly entrancing, and which the pianist Joseph Rubinstein frequently played to him at his request. Even more enthusiastic than Wagner was Brahms. His intense admiration for Carmen was a matter of common knowledge, even before Andrew de Ternant revealed the details of Debussy's visit to the German master. According to Debussy, Brahms regarded Carmen as "undoubtedly the greatest opera produced in Europe since the Franco-Prussian war". He bitterly regretted that he had never met Bizet and declared that "he would have gone to the end of the earth to embrace the composer of Carmen". He rightly deplored the regrettable spirit (redolent of the music-hall) in which Carmen is generally produced and performed. The whole work was inexcusably degraded to the level of a tragical operetta by the habit-so prevalent in every country--of representing Carmen as "the low-bred follower of Spanish soldiers", instead of as "a bewitching, cultured woman of Bizet's own nationality". Brahms subsequently insisted on taking Debussy to a performance of Carmen, and during the intervals delivered "quite a commentary-lecture on the principal numbers". He informed Debussy that he had witnessed no fewer than twenty-one performances, and that his admiration was shared by the Iron Chancellor Bismarck, who had attended no fewer than twenty-seven! These particulars must have been gratifying to the young French musician, whose fervent admiration for Bizet never wavered, despite the depreciatory remarks of the Debussyists. Wayne Leigh 16:06, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
There's at least one filmed ballet version that should be mentioned. -- Hugh7 23:44, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
Is Escamillo a bass? I thought he was a baritone... --Edit--I'm pretty sure he is. Updating page to reflect...
Evanbro 16:30, Apr 10, 2005 (UTC)
The first version of the opera I saw was the Deutsche Grammophon/Metropolitan Opera DVD (dialogue version) conducted by James Levine with the Metropolitan Opera Orchestra and Agnes Baltsa, José Carreras, Leona Mitchell and Samuel Ramey as Carmen, Don José, Micaëla and Escamillo respectively. It's a 1988 version that should be added to the list. If you need more info, just ask.
Now the question. In this version, Frasquita is a soprano ( Myra Merritt) and Mercedes is a mezzo ( Diane Kesling) and they arranged the score so as to give Merritt all the higher parts and Kesling all the lower parts, so some, if not most of the time Frasquita is singing Mercedes's part and vice-versa. Is that done traditionally or is it just an exception?
-- Orpheo 09:32, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
It seems there ae two vwersions: here http://opera.stanford.edu/Bizet/Carmen/acte3.html, for example, Frasquita sings "Fortune" and Mercedes sings "Amour" (Just before Carmen tries her luck with the cards), but here http://www.aria-database.com/translations/carmen.txt the opposite is true.
The article said that Le Dancaïre is a tenor and Le Remendado is a baritone. In the Deutsche Grammophone/Metropolitan Opera version, El Dancaïro is a baritone and El Remendado is a tenor, but in the score they both have a G clef. Tenor or Baritone? -- Orpheo 10:20, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
I have removed the following: Pendragon Press has published a guide to Carmen which includes the complete text translated into English, International Phonetic Alphabet, as well as a translation of the novel by Prosper Mérimée and other literary sources for the libretto. This is Carmen: A Performance Guide by Mary Dibbern with an Introduction by Bizet scholar Lesley A. Wright. ISBN 1-57647-032-6.
There are thousands of guides to operas, and this one does not seem particularly noteworthy. It does not offer a previously lost section of the libretto, discarded music, etc., and therefore does not belong in revisions.
I have removed the following:
Gene Deitch directed Carmen Get It, a Tom and Jerry cartoon, for release in 1962.
The 1976 movie The Bad News Bears, a movie about little league baseball in Southern California, uses Carmen incidental music throughout, primarily the Toréadors song.
In Dance Dance Revolution: Mario Mix, the song "Garden Boogie" is a remix of Carmen.
In the 1988 Winter Olympic Games ladies' figure skating competition, both [[]] and Debi Thomas employed portions of Carmen in their finales, winning gold and bronze medals respectively.
The late-90's-early 2000's Nickelodeon cartoon Hey Arnold! had an episode ("What's Opera, Arnold?") that was based almost entirely on Carmen.
The toreador song was once used as an advertising jingle for STP.
In Clerks: The Animated Series, the fifth episode, in which Dante Hicks coaches little league, has music from Carmen playing in the background during their games and practices.
In the 2006 movie The Benchwarmers, most if not all of the background music is from Carmen.
In Paul Thomas Anderson's 1999 film Magnolia, contestants on a ficional game show are asked to identify the opera based on a line in English. Habanera then plays in the background for several minutes.
If anybody can justify their inclusion in this article (as opposed to in the Clerks: The Animated Series, The Benchwarmers etc. articles), then by all means put them back in. -- Alexs letterbox 09:07, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
The Opera Project now has a policy on trivia sections, which is on the Project page item 10.9. We hope that contributors to this page will respect that policy, which applies to all opera articles. We of course welcome comments and ideas for developing our guidelines. Thank you. - Kleinzach 08:28, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
There is this episode in Tom and Jerry where they go to an opera house and Carmen is being played, does any-one think this information should be added to the article? Atomic45 05:13, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
I have added this, but apologies as I haven't managed to see the whole thing and so am leaning on the IMDB page and movies.mov.cv a bit. The characters are correct and I think I have followed the right conventions (ie the full listing of pinyin and traditional characters would is usually on the page devoted to the topic) User:Conflatuman 13:30 24 February 2007 (UTC)
The Prelude plays after all Formula One podiums, should be mentioned -- 201.9.109.152 22:21, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
I intend to make a brief reference, with an entry either in in the "Films" or "Others" section, to a movie that is entirely based on the opera "Carmen" albeit with a comedy point of view. This film is an argentinian one from 1943, also called "Carmen"
[1], and the main actress is the argentinian actress and comedian Nini Marshall
[2].
In my opinion, and after reviewing the "trivia policy" related to operas, the reference is relevant and would add to the article. To prevent anybody to feel offended by a perceived inappropriate edit, I'm asking the opera experts/fans their opinion before making the edit. If there is no formal or widespread opposition I'll include this reference keeping in line with the style of the article.
Having said that, a future article about this movie and would be included in the "Carmen (disambiguation)" page after I translate the one in the spanish WikiPedia into english.
Thanks & regards,
DPdH (
talk)
04:59, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
And what about the London's Royal Opera (see www.roh.org.uk/movies) production of Carmen directed by Francesca Zambello, conducted by Antonio Pappano High Definition and Digital Surround Sound version? How should this be categorized: as a movie or as a recording? TomyDuby ( talk) 11:17, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
In 1978 by Elena Obraztsova Carmen does not die. The article does not mention it. Where did the alternate script, lyrics and music come? I am pretty sure, I saw it. Don José and Carmen embrace at the end and everybody is happy! Someone should put that missing information... Davichito ( talk) 20:17, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
Note: Oratorio is a musical composition for voices and orchestra based on a religious text, it is not same as Prelude Music that precedes a fugue or introduces an act in an opera, it could or could not be used as an intro into religious scenes! Of course there are preludes for piano, same idea but different themes! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mirandamir ( talk • contribs) 22:38, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
I've just removed a statement in Conchita Supervía's article that in 1930 she was the first Spanish singer to sing Carmen. It wasn't sourced and it already had a fact tag. Does anyone know of a Spaniard who sang Carmen prior to 1930? The closest I've come is Lucrezia Bori, who sang Micaela in 1911. -- JackofOz ( talk) 05:11, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
A Torero, perhaps?, Bizet made one of the most famous errors in arts and yet no one seems to ever say anything.-- 142.68.45.96 ( talk) 02:49, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
Mina Curtiss gives a lot of detail about who attended the premiere in chapter XXVII. D'Indy (and Camille Benoit) won the two tickets given by Bizet to Franck's composition class to attend the premiere. According to Curtiss, shortly after the opening night when Bizet returned to Franck's organ class d'Indy volunteered to help keep Lhérie in tune, and played in the wings for "thirty performances". Cg2p0B0u8m ( talk) 20:42, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
The article says "It is two months later." In the libretto (e.g. on http://opera.stanford.edu/Bizet/Carmen/acte2.html) Zuniga twice speaks of "un mois". Both times he refers to the same time span that has passed since the events that happen at the end of Act I: one month has passed since he had Carmen arrested, and Jose has since then spent that month in jail for letting her escape. I don't see the libretto mentioning a time span of two months? 217.235.149.237 ( talk) 21:37, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
I have changed the text to one month. Cg2p0B0u8m ( talk) 22:01, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
I would fix this, but I don't know how... The Prelude MP3 in Act I isn't working —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.140.27.12 ( talk) 21:41, 22 January 2010 (UTC)
This page move seems pointless. We now have the REDIRECT Carmen pointing to Carmen (opera). Clearly, the disambiguator is not needed. Was this discussed anywhere or was it just a bold decision? If the latter, I feel the second step of WP:BRD coming on. -- Michael Bednarek ( talk) 12:42, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
I reviewed the score downloaded from IMSLP. The score shows that the key of the "Fate Motive"/"Fate Theme", which is the third thematic section in the Prelude, turns out to be C minor instead of D minor.
But I noticed here, under Musical Elements section, it reads,
"The Prelude is in three sections: in A major the flamboyant Act IV 'Spanish' music of the bull-fight, then the 'Toreador Song', and finally a plunge into D minor and the motive marked by the augmented second, linked both to Carmen, and to Don José's fatal attraction to her, finishing on a diminished 7th chord."
Can someone confirm this for me? Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dvd627 ( talk • contribs) 16:02, 8 December 2010 (UTC)
I've just looked at one of the scores on IMSLP, also the Eulenberg edition (1992/2003) I have; at the end of the reprise of the first subject, the Andante Moderato in bar 121 has violins playing D and A and violas playing F natural. I am not sure where you get the C minor from? Cg2p0B0u8m ( talk) 17:13, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
Is there a need for an amendment, or at least a note about the date. The libretto gives the date of the action as 1820:
but my edition of Grove gives 1830... Cg2p0B0u8m ( talk) 21:24, 1 January 2011 (UTC)
If no one disagrees, I'm going to change all instances of "gypsy" to "Gypsy", as it's a proper noun. EDIT: Except for the one instance of "gypsy life" in which it clearly refers to the perceived lifestyle of the Romani people. Sailorknightwing ( talk) 22:33, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
Shouldn't Escamillo be described as a Torero, rather than as a Toreador? Wikipedia claims that people fighting bulls in the arena are Toreros, Toreador is not recognised. "Asterix in Spain" has a specific note from the author saying that Torero is the real word, not Toreador. ;) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Djingis Khan ( talk • contribs) 18:42, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
Carmen is one of the most popular of all operas, and its WP article ought to do it justice. At the moment it falls a long way short of being an example of WP's best work. Among the most obvious shortcomings are:-
I am prepared to do a significant amount of the work necessary to raise the standards of this article but before beginning I would like to establish a broad consensus for the approach indicated above. Brianboulton ( talk) 21:53, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
I have begun adding and reorganising material. The article will look distinctly odd for a while, so I have placed an "under construction" banner to alert people. Some images have been removed, pending reconsideration of their best positioning and, in some cases, whether they are necessary. I would prefe it if editors did not add back material, at least until the mai redrafting process is complete, though of course any queries/problems can be raised on this talkpage. Brianboulton ( talk) 21:38, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
Note: Good wishes to a conscientious IP, but there is no point at the moment in making editorial changes to the lead, as this will need to be completely rewritten when the main text redrafting is complete. Brianboulton ( talk) 11:39, 4 March 2012 (UTC)
I must apologise for not noting this before in previous comments, I had not read through the link. The source cited:
is Guiraud’s arrangement. I realise it may be difficult to simply change to the 1875 vocal score (linked on IMSLP) if the Schirmer is already referenced (although the 1875 should be added), but at the minimum the source should be marked as what it is. Cg2p0B0u8m ( talk) 20:46, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
The theatre where Carmen was first performed, the Salle Favart, has been removed from the article as redundant, but the theatre is not mentioned anywhere in the article. The Salle Favart, as the theatre of the opera's premiere, is specified in on pp. 92 and 178 in the 2005 book by Nicole Wild and David Charlton, Théâtre de l'Opéra-Comique Paris: répertoire 1762-1972 (Editions Mardaga, ISBN 978-2-87009-898-1). The company known as the Opéra-Comique has performed in a number of different theatres since its founding. If one looks at the table of notable premieres in the article on the company, it will be more clear why the terms Opéra-Comique and Salle Favart are not synonymous (except perhaps in the minds of contemporary opera goers whose memories or knowledge of the company do not go back to these earlier periods). In fact, from 1887 to 1898, after the premiere of Carmen, the company used a different theatre (at that time known as the Théâtre Lyrique, but now known as the Théâtre de la Ville). Moreover, the Salle Favart, which first opened in 1783, has not been used exclusively by the Opéra-Comiqe. For example, it was used by the Théâtre Italien on several occasions: from 1802 to 1804, 1815 to 1818, and 1825 to 1838 (see Grove Opera, vol. 3, p. 867). Thus, to specify the theatre that was used for the first performance of Carmen is not actually redundant. The Salle Favart is not mentioned anywhere in this article. but it only adds four words to add it. Is it really so detrimental to include it? -- Robert.Allen ( talk) 09:01, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
"Among those who attended one of these later performance was Tchaikovsky" -> "performances"? almost- instinct 09:42, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
With the edit summary "Collapse navlist, the default state for this template", the long-standing navigation box {{ Bizet operas}} has recently been changed in this Featured Article to display Bizet's stage works in a collapsed state after being here for some considerable time uncollapsed. That uncollapsed state was introduced on 19 December 2011 by User:Kaldari with the edit summary: "setting to expanded=Operas since the content is short and there is no possibility of it interfering with other images or content on the page". As far as I know, that edit has never been questioned, much less reverted. The documentation at {{ Composer navbox}}, the basis of most Operas by composer templates, does indeed express a preference for collapsed display, but only because an uncollapsed display might interfere with other page elements. This concern has been adequately considered by Kaldari in the decision to use the template uncollapsed. I agree with that decision and suggest to restore the template to the uncollapsed state. -- Michael Bednarek ( talk) 07:59, 10 August 2013 (UTC)
This is well written and very helpful (I just read it because I'm about to attend a performance). Thanks to whoever did the main work here. Opus33 ( talk) 00:45, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
The first two of the (very nicely selected) musical fragments need attribution. It isn't fair to the artists to include their work without at least indicating who is singing and where the performance was recorded! 67.241.72.139 ( talk) 14:16, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
There are two editors who wish to remove mention of either the Habanera or the Toreador Song as among the best-known arias of this opera. Why? They both are and that is a well-known fact! Kostaki mou ( talk) 01:39, 12 July 2014 (UTC)
... to have a pic from the opera on top of the page, not the composer. It is pretty boring to see Mr. Verdi in 40 opera featured as the first one. If someone googles for Carmen, he or she wants to see Carmen. Therefore I propose to put a picture of an actual opera production on top.-- Meister und Margarita ( talk) 00:03, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
Carmen | |
---|---|
opera in 4 acts by George Bizet | |
![]()
Célestine Galli-Marié, the protagonist of the premiere in 1875 | |
Librettist | |
Language | French |
Based on | Carmen, novella by Prosper Mérimée |
Premiere | 3 March 1875
Opéra-Comique, Paris |
Project opera developed {{ infobox opera}}, an infobox for operas. Please help discuss, -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 20:58, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
While the picture is suitable (though the medium is not explained), this is another example of a badly considered infobox. The genre is wrong (as baldly stated) and it doesn't include information that the first-time reader might reasonably want to know. These infoboxes will continue to be badly implemented until the box protagonists start asking themselves what the boxes are actually supposed to accomplish. Klein zach 07:47, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
I added this classic poster for Carmen to the Infobox opera that is in the collection of the Library of Congress. Yes, it is brash and colorful with dancing, quite in keeping with the title role of Carmen, and the bold blue and red evoke her hot and cold character. I find the new pic to be awfully dull by comparison. But perhaps the poster is more to American tastes. -- Robert.Allen ( talk) 08:02, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
|influenced by=
and |influenced=
in other infoboxes, now removed, are similar). Thanks for correcting my faulty mention of the other librettist. --
Michael Bednarek (
talk)
10:14, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
I too would very much like to hear from Brianboulton, who brought this article to FA status. On the whole, it's preferable to use a contemporary image. The WPA poster is anachronistic and the large print at the top is is visually distracting. On the other hand, the current one is dull as dishwater. How about File:Carmen - illustration by Luc for Journal Amusant 1875.jpg, which I just uploaded? Also, I see nothing wrong with "Opera by Georges Bizet" at the top. That wording makes no visible reference to a specific sub-genre. It simply states what Carmen is—an opera. The opening sentence of the article says it's an opera. Just about anyone in the English-speaking world would call it an opera. The Royal Opera House calls it an opera. Even the old navbox listed it under the heading... er... operas. Opéra comique is simply a sub-genre of the over-arching genre of opera and is quite rightly discussed in the body of article. I think the current "opera-less" version looks silly and is potentially confusing. For the completely uninitiated reader: Is it book? A film? A play? Voceditenore ( talk) 17:28, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
I will be in a minority of one by saying I don't think the picture should be featured at the top in this way. When you look at the original page in Gallica, http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b85274932/f36.item you can see it is from a satirical / comic magazine (the rest of that entry is colourized postcards).
I was also suspicious of the graphic style - it surely could not be from the 1870s, more Belle Epoque - in fact if you scan to the last page of this Journal Amusant edition from 1911 http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k5501597j/f1.image.r=carmen.langEN you can find the picture, with its caption ("Avec toutes leurs musiques viennoises, napolitaines et moscovites, il n'y aura, caramba! bientôt que moi de française.") – at a guess it is making fun of all the foreign music in Paris (Ballet Russes etc) by saying that the only french music left in Paris is Carmen. So I would prefer a more representative image of the opera! Cg2p0B0u8m ( talk) 22:15, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
I personally find the current picture in the infobox to be too sexualised for a neutral encyclopedic article. I'd suggest the previous picture instead. Thoughts? –– ♫ Mara/Freya ♫ 18:51, 11 June 2015 (UTC)
I have removed the recently added "Trivia" section with its sole contents:
Apart from violating WP:TRIVIA and WP:UNDUE, this utterly trivial factoid belongs (if anywhere) in West Australian Opera. It adds nothing to the reader's understanding of Bizet's opera and is particularly inappropriate in a Featured Article. Voceditenore ( talk) 14:16, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
I'm not entirely happy with an image from a parody newspaper as the lead image - that's kind of like using the cartoons from MAD magazine or Viz to illustrate the subject they're parodying. I'd like to swap it for http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8415848g/f1.zoom.r=carmen%20bizet.langEN - any objections? Adam Cuerden ( talk) 18:02, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
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The article consistently uses the term "Gypsy". I understand that "some people consider [this word] pejorative due to its connotations of illegality and irregularity" and some Romani have even called it a slur. I feel it would be better to replace it with the less offensive, more neutral endonym "Romani". Venicedoge ( talk) 16:50, 23 September 2016 (UTC)
As far as I can make out, it's considered perfectly acceptable to subdivide this section into acts: [4]. It's also practical (for reasons that should be obvious?) and conforms with at least many other opera articles. 151.177.62.193 ( talk) 18:22, 11 February 2018 (UTC)
Since I was pinged... I really don't care one way or another. When 151.177.62.193| reverted me I just let it be. Per Nikkimaria, it causes some issues with the TOC (my problem). The counterargument is that section breaks make for easier editing of the synopsis. But this is a Fearured Article and the synopsis is unlikely to require any editing. Anyhow, you pays yer money and you takes yer chance. :-) Voceditenore ( talk) 07:35, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
(Apologies - I can't figure out accents on my laptop.) It would be so nice to have a section detailing specific differences between the original opera-comique version (with extensive dialogue) and the version with the composed recitatives (the one customarily performed). -- kosboot ( talk) 18:07, 15 July 2014 (UTC)
Wagner praise? The following is citation from David Foil text for Carmen Black Dog Opera Library: "Wagner in fact abhorred Carmen. So intense was his dislike that it widened a longstanding breach between him and the philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche that would never heal"
Wagner name should be replaced by Tchaikovsky "who was an early fan of Carmen". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aditt ( talk • contribs) 18:07, 28 March 2020 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Today's featured article/requests/Carmen 2 -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 16:43, 26 January 2021 (UTC)
Having just had an edit adding an adaptation reverted, it seems the local convention on this page (or opera section?) is for inline citation. Ok, I can imagine reasons for that, especially on a page considered to be of high quality. Posting this note to check if there’s some particular aspect of the citation that’s expected, since the previous edit linked to two established WP articles with onward imdb etc links. Conflatuman ( talk) 12:09, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
I understand that this is primarily an article dealing with the opera itself, but I'm a little surprised that the article reached FA-status without including any consideration of the wider context and inspirations for the themes within it (eg. the female workers at the Royal Tobacco Factory in Seville and the sexualised "gypsy" image of Spanish women in 19th-century European popular culture). Paul Preston addresses this in detail in A People Betrayed (2020) and I am sure he is not alone in doing so. — Brigade Piron ( talk) 10:42, 4 March 2021 (UTC)
The 'snare drum' part reprinted by Kalmus and hosted at IMSLP is labeled Tambours, and seems to be making some distinction between tambour de Basque ( tambourine) and tambourin ( Tabor (instrument)#Usage?). I don't yet quite understand if the Eulenberg score given as a reference for "side drum" uses English, and whether the redirects side drum and field drum need attention. Sparafucil ( talk) 00:57, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
I don't doubt Blades at all about tambourin provençal being Bizet's drum, and reliable sourcing of that might be a problem for the Tabor (instrument) page. What Carmen needs to decide now is whether 'side drum' or tambourin [de Provence? provençal?] should link to tabor, and whether Didion's edition clarifies Bizet's exact term. Sparafucil ( talk) 03:09, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
An IP changed "bass-baritone" to "baritone" in the Roles section. As there was no citation for the change I have reverted it, but I'm not sure it was wrong. The 1905 Peters full score at IMSLP has Escamillo as "Bariton". Any views, please, colleagues? Tim riley talk 21:36, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
Is Don José 'naïve'? Cg2p0B0u8m ( talk) 17:21, 4 March 2021 (UTC)
Hello! This is to let editors know that the featured picture File:Prudent-Louis Leray - Poster for the première of Georges Bizet's Carmen.jpg, which is used in this article, has been selected as the English Wikipedia's picture of the day (POTD) for July 28, 2021. A preview of the POTD is displayed below and can be edited at Template:POTD/2021-07-28. For the greater benefit of readers, any potential improvements or maintenance that could benefit the quality of this article should be done before its scheduled appearance on the Main Page. If you have any concerns, please place a message at Wikipedia talk:Picture of the day. Thank you! Cwmhiraeth ( talk) 12:31, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
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Carmen is an opera in four acts by the French composer Georges Bizet, with a libretto written by Henri Meilhac and Ludovic Halévy based on a novella by Prosper Mérimée. This lithographic poster, illustrated by Prudent-Louis Leray, advertised the opera's premiere, which took place in Paris on 3 March 1875. It was not initially a success; the audience at the Opéra-Comique was shocked by the drastic realism of the action and by the low standing and immorality of most of the characters. However, later that year, after Bizet's unexpected death, an adaptation by Ernest Guiraud performed by the Vienna Court Opera became a great success with the public, and Guiraud's version went on to achieve worldwide fame. Poster credit: Prudent-Louis Leray; restored by Adam Cuerden |
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The Beer Song is a parody using the melody from the prelude to Act I. It sounds like Weird Al, but it would be his only song about alcohol or drugs, so might be someone else. All versions that I've seen on the internet attribute the artist to others, but they are inconsistent. Vinzklorthos ( talk) 00:14, 13 October 2023 (UTC)
In the "Musical numbers" section, it looks strange to see the three entr'actes placed at the end of the previous act. Shouldn't those be listed at the beginning of each act as they are curtain raisers? Does this have something to do with the numbering? 2600:1700:243D:20E0:6DCD:AF80:C5BF:7950 ( talk) 04:12, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
After Porgy and Bess I believe this should be the next opera FA. After all, it is the most performed opera in the world, so why not? I have started adding the structure, and will be continually adding to it.
-- Alexs letterbox 07:42, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
The first man of genius to recognize Bizet at his true value was undoubtedly Tchaikovsky. A pupil of his, Vladimir Shilovsky, had been present at the first performance of Carmen and immediately sent him the score. In the late autumn of 1875 Tchaikovsky came to Paris with his brother Modeste, Carmen was dragging out a miserable existence at the Opera-Comique and was just on the point of disappearing from the repertory for no fewer than eight years. Modeste Tchaikovsky declares that his brother was in a state of intense nervous excitement after the performance of Carmen. "Peter Ilich has never been so completely carried away by any piece of modern music as by Carmen", he writes. He adds that the news of Bizet's death tended to increase his brother's almost unhealthy passion for the opera. Tchaikovsky's admiration for Bizet steadily grew. Five years later he wrote that Carmen was "a masterpiece in the most complete sense of the word; one of those rare works which will some day most vividly reflect the aspirations of a whole generation. What a wonderful subject!" he adds. "I am convinced that ten years hence Carmen will be the most popular opera in the world." Tchaikovsky's enthusiasm never waned. He never tired of a music that is "so fascinating in its simplicity, so full of vitality, so sincere" that he remembered every note of it. He regarded Bizet as head and shoulders above his French contemporaries. The next man of genius to realize the true significance of Bizet's work was Wagner himself. He was present at a performance of Carmen in Vienna in November 1875. He is credited with the remark, made at the end of the performance : "Thank God, here at last is somebody who has imagination." Hans von Bulow writes : "Wagner and Brahms vied with each other in extolling Bizet's masterpiece". No contemporary opera produced so deep an impression on the ageing composer as Carmen. He regarded it as the starting-point of a renaissance of French dramatic music, revitalized by popular song. It is interesting to note that his favourite piece was the Micaela-Don Josh duet-which is generally regarded as the most conventional number in the whole opera. He delighted in "the fresh naivety" of which he considered perfectly entrancing, and which the pianist Joseph Rubinstein frequently played to him at his request. Even more enthusiastic than Wagner was Brahms. His intense admiration for Carmen was a matter of common knowledge, even before Andrew de Ternant revealed the details of Debussy's visit to the German master. According to Debussy, Brahms regarded Carmen as "undoubtedly the greatest opera produced in Europe since the Franco-Prussian war". He bitterly regretted that he had never met Bizet and declared that "he would have gone to the end of the earth to embrace the composer of Carmen". He rightly deplored the regrettable spirit (redolent of the music-hall) in which Carmen is generally produced and performed. The whole work was inexcusably degraded to the level of a tragical operetta by the habit-so prevalent in every country--of representing Carmen as "the low-bred follower of Spanish soldiers", instead of as "a bewitching, cultured woman of Bizet's own nationality". Brahms subsequently insisted on taking Debussy to a performance of Carmen, and during the intervals delivered "quite a commentary-lecture on the principal numbers". He informed Debussy that he had witnessed no fewer than twenty-one performances, and that his admiration was shared by the Iron Chancellor Bismarck, who had attended no fewer than twenty-seven! These particulars must have been gratifying to the young French musician, whose fervent admiration for Bizet never wavered, despite the depreciatory remarks of the Debussyists. Wayne Leigh 16:06, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
There's at least one filmed ballet version that should be mentioned. -- Hugh7 23:44, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
Is Escamillo a bass? I thought he was a baritone... --Edit--I'm pretty sure he is. Updating page to reflect...
Evanbro 16:30, Apr 10, 2005 (UTC)
The first version of the opera I saw was the Deutsche Grammophon/Metropolitan Opera DVD (dialogue version) conducted by James Levine with the Metropolitan Opera Orchestra and Agnes Baltsa, José Carreras, Leona Mitchell and Samuel Ramey as Carmen, Don José, Micaëla and Escamillo respectively. It's a 1988 version that should be added to the list. If you need more info, just ask.
Now the question. In this version, Frasquita is a soprano ( Myra Merritt) and Mercedes is a mezzo ( Diane Kesling) and they arranged the score so as to give Merritt all the higher parts and Kesling all the lower parts, so some, if not most of the time Frasquita is singing Mercedes's part and vice-versa. Is that done traditionally or is it just an exception?
-- Orpheo 09:32, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
It seems there ae two vwersions: here http://opera.stanford.edu/Bizet/Carmen/acte3.html, for example, Frasquita sings "Fortune" and Mercedes sings "Amour" (Just before Carmen tries her luck with the cards), but here http://www.aria-database.com/translations/carmen.txt the opposite is true.
The article said that Le Dancaïre is a tenor and Le Remendado is a baritone. In the Deutsche Grammophone/Metropolitan Opera version, El Dancaïro is a baritone and El Remendado is a tenor, but in the score they both have a G clef. Tenor or Baritone? -- Orpheo 10:20, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
I have removed the following: Pendragon Press has published a guide to Carmen which includes the complete text translated into English, International Phonetic Alphabet, as well as a translation of the novel by Prosper Mérimée and other literary sources for the libretto. This is Carmen: A Performance Guide by Mary Dibbern with an Introduction by Bizet scholar Lesley A. Wright. ISBN 1-57647-032-6.
There are thousands of guides to operas, and this one does not seem particularly noteworthy. It does not offer a previously lost section of the libretto, discarded music, etc., and therefore does not belong in revisions.
I have removed the following:
Gene Deitch directed Carmen Get It, a Tom and Jerry cartoon, for release in 1962.
The 1976 movie The Bad News Bears, a movie about little league baseball in Southern California, uses Carmen incidental music throughout, primarily the Toréadors song.
In Dance Dance Revolution: Mario Mix, the song "Garden Boogie" is a remix of Carmen.
In the 1988 Winter Olympic Games ladies' figure skating competition, both [[]] and Debi Thomas employed portions of Carmen in their finales, winning gold and bronze medals respectively.
The late-90's-early 2000's Nickelodeon cartoon Hey Arnold! had an episode ("What's Opera, Arnold?") that was based almost entirely on Carmen.
The toreador song was once used as an advertising jingle for STP.
In Clerks: The Animated Series, the fifth episode, in which Dante Hicks coaches little league, has music from Carmen playing in the background during their games and practices.
In the 2006 movie The Benchwarmers, most if not all of the background music is from Carmen.
In Paul Thomas Anderson's 1999 film Magnolia, contestants on a ficional game show are asked to identify the opera based on a line in English. Habanera then plays in the background for several minutes.
If anybody can justify their inclusion in this article (as opposed to in the Clerks: The Animated Series, The Benchwarmers etc. articles), then by all means put them back in. -- Alexs letterbox 09:07, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
The Opera Project now has a policy on trivia sections, which is on the Project page item 10.9. We hope that contributors to this page will respect that policy, which applies to all opera articles. We of course welcome comments and ideas for developing our guidelines. Thank you. - Kleinzach 08:28, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
There is this episode in Tom and Jerry where they go to an opera house and Carmen is being played, does any-one think this information should be added to the article? Atomic45 05:13, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
I have added this, but apologies as I haven't managed to see the whole thing and so am leaning on the IMDB page and movies.mov.cv a bit. The characters are correct and I think I have followed the right conventions (ie the full listing of pinyin and traditional characters would is usually on the page devoted to the topic) User:Conflatuman 13:30 24 February 2007 (UTC)
The Prelude plays after all Formula One podiums, should be mentioned -- 201.9.109.152 22:21, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
I intend to make a brief reference, with an entry either in in the "Films" or "Others" section, to a movie that is entirely based on the opera "Carmen" albeit with a comedy point of view. This film is an argentinian one from 1943, also called "Carmen"
[1], and the main actress is the argentinian actress and comedian Nini Marshall
[2].
In my opinion, and after reviewing the "trivia policy" related to operas, the reference is relevant and would add to the article. To prevent anybody to feel offended by a perceived inappropriate edit, I'm asking the opera experts/fans their opinion before making the edit. If there is no formal or widespread opposition I'll include this reference keeping in line with the style of the article.
Having said that, a future article about this movie and would be included in the "Carmen (disambiguation)" page after I translate the one in the spanish WikiPedia into english.
Thanks & regards,
DPdH (
talk)
04:59, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
And what about the London's Royal Opera (see www.roh.org.uk/movies) production of Carmen directed by Francesca Zambello, conducted by Antonio Pappano High Definition and Digital Surround Sound version? How should this be categorized: as a movie or as a recording? TomyDuby ( talk) 11:17, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
In 1978 by Elena Obraztsova Carmen does not die. The article does not mention it. Where did the alternate script, lyrics and music come? I am pretty sure, I saw it. Don José and Carmen embrace at the end and everybody is happy! Someone should put that missing information... Davichito ( talk) 20:17, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
Note: Oratorio is a musical composition for voices and orchestra based on a religious text, it is not same as Prelude Music that precedes a fugue or introduces an act in an opera, it could or could not be used as an intro into religious scenes! Of course there are preludes for piano, same idea but different themes! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mirandamir ( talk • contribs) 22:38, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
I've just removed a statement in Conchita Supervía's article that in 1930 she was the first Spanish singer to sing Carmen. It wasn't sourced and it already had a fact tag. Does anyone know of a Spaniard who sang Carmen prior to 1930? The closest I've come is Lucrezia Bori, who sang Micaela in 1911. -- JackofOz ( talk) 05:11, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
A Torero, perhaps?, Bizet made one of the most famous errors in arts and yet no one seems to ever say anything.-- 142.68.45.96 ( talk) 02:49, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
Mina Curtiss gives a lot of detail about who attended the premiere in chapter XXVII. D'Indy (and Camille Benoit) won the two tickets given by Bizet to Franck's composition class to attend the premiere. According to Curtiss, shortly after the opening night when Bizet returned to Franck's organ class d'Indy volunteered to help keep Lhérie in tune, and played in the wings for "thirty performances". Cg2p0B0u8m ( talk) 20:42, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
The article says "It is two months later." In the libretto (e.g. on http://opera.stanford.edu/Bizet/Carmen/acte2.html) Zuniga twice speaks of "un mois". Both times he refers to the same time span that has passed since the events that happen at the end of Act I: one month has passed since he had Carmen arrested, and Jose has since then spent that month in jail for letting her escape. I don't see the libretto mentioning a time span of two months? 217.235.149.237 ( talk) 21:37, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
I have changed the text to one month. Cg2p0B0u8m ( talk) 22:01, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
I would fix this, but I don't know how... The Prelude MP3 in Act I isn't working —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.140.27.12 ( talk) 21:41, 22 January 2010 (UTC)
This page move seems pointless. We now have the REDIRECT Carmen pointing to Carmen (opera). Clearly, the disambiguator is not needed. Was this discussed anywhere or was it just a bold decision? If the latter, I feel the second step of WP:BRD coming on. -- Michael Bednarek ( talk) 12:42, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
I reviewed the score downloaded from IMSLP. The score shows that the key of the "Fate Motive"/"Fate Theme", which is the third thematic section in the Prelude, turns out to be C minor instead of D minor.
But I noticed here, under Musical Elements section, it reads,
"The Prelude is in three sections: in A major the flamboyant Act IV 'Spanish' music of the bull-fight, then the 'Toreador Song', and finally a plunge into D minor and the motive marked by the augmented second, linked both to Carmen, and to Don José's fatal attraction to her, finishing on a diminished 7th chord."
Can someone confirm this for me? Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dvd627 ( talk • contribs) 16:02, 8 December 2010 (UTC)
I've just looked at one of the scores on IMSLP, also the Eulenberg edition (1992/2003) I have; at the end of the reprise of the first subject, the Andante Moderato in bar 121 has violins playing D and A and violas playing F natural. I am not sure where you get the C minor from? Cg2p0B0u8m ( talk) 17:13, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
Is there a need for an amendment, or at least a note about the date. The libretto gives the date of the action as 1820:
but my edition of Grove gives 1830... Cg2p0B0u8m ( talk) 21:24, 1 January 2011 (UTC)
If no one disagrees, I'm going to change all instances of "gypsy" to "Gypsy", as it's a proper noun. EDIT: Except for the one instance of "gypsy life" in which it clearly refers to the perceived lifestyle of the Romani people. Sailorknightwing ( talk) 22:33, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
Shouldn't Escamillo be described as a Torero, rather than as a Toreador? Wikipedia claims that people fighting bulls in the arena are Toreros, Toreador is not recognised. "Asterix in Spain" has a specific note from the author saying that Torero is the real word, not Toreador. ;) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Djingis Khan ( talk • contribs) 18:42, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
Carmen is one of the most popular of all operas, and its WP article ought to do it justice. At the moment it falls a long way short of being an example of WP's best work. Among the most obvious shortcomings are:-
I am prepared to do a significant amount of the work necessary to raise the standards of this article but before beginning I would like to establish a broad consensus for the approach indicated above. Brianboulton ( talk) 21:53, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
I have begun adding and reorganising material. The article will look distinctly odd for a while, so I have placed an "under construction" banner to alert people. Some images have been removed, pending reconsideration of their best positioning and, in some cases, whether they are necessary. I would prefe it if editors did not add back material, at least until the mai redrafting process is complete, though of course any queries/problems can be raised on this talkpage. Brianboulton ( talk) 21:38, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
Note: Good wishes to a conscientious IP, but there is no point at the moment in making editorial changes to the lead, as this will need to be completely rewritten when the main text redrafting is complete. Brianboulton ( talk) 11:39, 4 March 2012 (UTC)
I must apologise for not noting this before in previous comments, I had not read through the link. The source cited:
is Guiraud’s arrangement. I realise it may be difficult to simply change to the 1875 vocal score (linked on IMSLP) if the Schirmer is already referenced (although the 1875 should be added), but at the minimum the source should be marked as what it is. Cg2p0B0u8m ( talk) 20:46, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
The theatre where Carmen was first performed, the Salle Favart, has been removed from the article as redundant, but the theatre is not mentioned anywhere in the article. The Salle Favart, as the theatre of the opera's premiere, is specified in on pp. 92 and 178 in the 2005 book by Nicole Wild and David Charlton, Théâtre de l'Opéra-Comique Paris: répertoire 1762-1972 (Editions Mardaga, ISBN 978-2-87009-898-1). The company known as the Opéra-Comique has performed in a number of different theatres since its founding. If one looks at the table of notable premieres in the article on the company, it will be more clear why the terms Opéra-Comique and Salle Favart are not synonymous (except perhaps in the minds of contemporary opera goers whose memories or knowledge of the company do not go back to these earlier periods). In fact, from 1887 to 1898, after the premiere of Carmen, the company used a different theatre (at that time known as the Théâtre Lyrique, but now known as the Théâtre de la Ville). Moreover, the Salle Favart, which first opened in 1783, has not been used exclusively by the Opéra-Comiqe. For example, it was used by the Théâtre Italien on several occasions: from 1802 to 1804, 1815 to 1818, and 1825 to 1838 (see Grove Opera, vol. 3, p. 867). Thus, to specify the theatre that was used for the first performance of Carmen is not actually redundant. The Salle Favart is not mentioned anywhere in this article. but it only adds four words to add it. Is it really so detrimental to include it? -- Robert.Allen ( talk) 09:01, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
"Among those who attended one of these later performance was Tchaikovsky" -> "performances"? almost- instinct 09:42, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
With the edit summary "Collapse navlist, the default state for this template", the long-standing navigation box {{ Bizet operas}} has recently been changed in this Featured Article to display Bizet's stage works in a collapsed state after being here for some considerable time uncollapsed. That uncollapsed state was introduced on 19 December 2011 by User:Kaldari with the edit summary: "setting to expanded=Operas since the content is short and there is no possibility of it interfering with other images or content on the page". As far as I know, that edit has never been questioned, much less reverted. The documentation at {{ Composer navbox}}, the basis of most Operas by composer templates, does indeed express a preference for collapsed display, but only because an uncollapsed display might interfere with other page elements. This concern has been adequately considered by Kaldari in the decision to use the template uncollapsed. I agree with that decision and suggest to restore the template to the uncollapsed state. -- Michael Bednarek ( talk) 07:59, 10 August 2013 (UTC)
This is well written and very helpful (I just read it because I'm about to attend a performance). Thanks to whoever did the main work here. Opus33 ( talk) 00:45, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
The first two of the (very nicely selected) musical fragments need attribution. It isn't fair to the artists to include their work without at least indicating who is singing and where the performance was recorded! 67.241.72.139 ( talk) 14:16, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
There are two editors who wish to remove mention of either the Habanera or the Toreador Song as among the best-known arias of this opera. Why? They both are and that is a well-known fact! Kostaki mou ( talk) 01:39, 12 July 2014 (UTC)
... to have a pic from the opera on top of the page, not the composer. It is pretty boring to see Mr. Verdi in 40 opera featured as the first one. If someone googles for Carmen, he or she wants to see Carmen. Therefore I propose to put a picture of an actual opera production on top.-- Meister und Margarita ( talk) 00:03, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
Carmen | |
---|---|
opera in 4 acts by George Bizet | |
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Célestine Galli-Marié, the protagonist of the premiere in 1875 | |
Librettist | |
Language | French |
Based on | Carmen, novella by Prosper Mérimée |
Premiere | 3 March 1875
Opéra-Comique, Paris |
Project opera developed {{ infobox opera}}, an infobox for operas. Please help discuss, -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 20:58, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
While the picture is suitable (though the medium is not explained), this is another example of a badly considered infobox. The genre is wrong (as baldly stated) and it doesn't include information that the first-time reader might reasonably want to know. These infoboxes will continue to be badly implemented until the box protagonists start asking themselves what the boxes are actually supposed to accomplish. Klein zach 07:47, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
I added this classic poster for Carmen to the Infobox opera that is in the collection of the Library of Congress. Yes, it is brash and colorful with dancing, quite in keeping with the title role of Carmen, and the bold blue and red evoke her hot and cold character. I find the new pic to be awfully dull by comparison. But perhaps the poster is more to American tastes. -- Robert.Allen ( talk) 08:02, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
|influenced by=
and |influenced=
in other infoboxes, now removed, are similar). Thanks for correcting my faulty mention of the other librettist. --
Michael Bednarek (
talk)
10:14, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
I too would very much like to hear from Brianboulton, who brought this article to FA status. On the whole, it's preferable to use a contemporary image. The WPA poster is anachronistic and the large print at the top is is visually distracting. On the other hand, the current one is dull as dishwater. How about File:Carmen - illustration by Luc for Journal Amusant 1875.jpg, which I just uploaded? Also, I see nothing wrong with "Opera by Georges Bizet" at the top. That wording makes no visible reference to a specific sub-genre. It simply states what Carmen is—an opera. The opening sentence of the article says it's an opera. Just about anyone in the English-speaking world would call it an opera. The Royal Opera House calls it an opera. Even the old navbox listed it under the heading... er... operas. Opéra comique is simply a sub-genre of the over-arching genre of opera and is quite rightly discussed in the body of article. I think the current "opera-less" version looks silly and is potentially confusing. For the completely uninitiated reader: Is it book? A film? A play? Voceditenore ( talk) 17:28, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
I will be in a minority of one by saying I don't think the picture should be featured at the top in this way. When you look at the original page in Gallica, http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b85274932/f36.item you can see it is from a satirical / comic magazine (the rest of that entry is colourized postcards).
I was also suspicious of the graphic style - it surely could not be from the 1870s, more Belle Epoque - in fact if you scan to the last page of this Journal Amusant edition from 1911 http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k5501597j/f1.image.r=carmen.langEN you can find the picture, with its caption ("Avec toutes leurs musiques viennoises, napolitaines et moscovites, il n'y aura, caramba! bientôt que moi de française.") – at a guess it is making fun of all the foreign music in Paris (Ballet Russes etc) by saying that the only french music left in Paris is Carmen. So I would prefer a more representative image of the opera! Cg2p0B0u8m ( talk) 22:15, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
I personally find the current picture in the infobox to be too sexualised for a neutral encyclopedic article. I'd suggest the previous picture instead. Thoughts? –– ♫ Mara/Freya ♫ 18:51, 11 June 2015 (UTC)
I have removed the recently added "Trivia" section with its sole contents:
Apart from violating WP:TRIVIA and WP:UNDUE, this utterly trivial factoid belongs (if anywhere) in West Australian Opera. It adds nothing to the reader's understanding of Bizet's opera and is particularly inappropriate in a Featured Article. Voceditenore ( talk) 14:16, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
I'm not entirely happy with an image from a parody newspaper as the lead image - that's kind of like using the cartoons from MAD magazine or Viz to illustrate the subject they're parodying. I'd like to swap it for http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8415848g/f1.zoom.r=carmen%20bizet.langEN - any objections? Adam Cuerden ( talk) 18:02, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
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The article consistently uses the term "Gypsy". I understand that "some people consider [this word] pejorative due to its connotations of illegality and irregularity" and some Romani have even called it a slur. I feel it would be better to replace it with the less offensive, more neutral endonym "Romani". Venicedoge ( talk) 16:50, 23 September 2016 (UTC)
As far as I can make out, it's considered perfectly acceptable to subdivide this section into acts: [4]. It's also practical (for reasons that should be obvious?) and conforms with at least many other opera articles. 151.177.62.193 ( talk) 18:22, 11 February 2018 (UTC)
Since I was pinged... I really don't care one way or another. When 151.177.62.193| reverted me I just let it be. Per Nikkimaria, it causes some issues with the TOC (my problem). The counterargument is that section breaks make for easier editing of the synopsis. But this is a Fearured Article and the synopsis is unlikely to require any editing. Anyhow, you pays yer money and you takes yer chance. :-) Voceditenore ( talk) 07:35, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
(Apologies - I can't figure out accents on my laptop.) It would be so nice to have a section detailing specific differences between the original opera-comique version (with extensive dialogue) and the version with the composed recitatives (the one customarily performed). -- kosboot ( talk) 18:07, 15 July 2014 (UTC)
Wagner praise? The following is citation from David Foil text for Carmen Black Dog Opera Library: "Wagner in fact abhorred Carmen. So intense was his dislike that it widened a longstanding breach between him and the philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche that would never heal"
Wagner name should be replaced by Tchaikovsky "who was an early fan of Carmen". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aditt ( talk • contribs) 18:07, 28 March 2020 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Today's featured article/requests/Carmen 2 -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 16:43, 26 January 2021 (UTC)
Having just had an edit adding an adaptation reverted, it seems the local convention on this page (or opera section?) is for inline citation. Ok, I can imagine reasons for that, especially on a page considered to be of high quality. Posting this note to check if there’s some particular aspect of the citation that’s expected, since the previous edit linked to two established WP articles with onward imdb etc links. Conflatuman ( talk) 12:09, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
I understand that this is primarily an article dealing with the opera itself, but I'm a little surprised that the article reached FA-status without including any consideration of the wider context and inspirations for the themes within it (eg. the female workers at the Royal Tobacco Factory in Seville and the sexualised "gypsy" image of Spanish women in 19th-century European popular culture). Paul Preston addresses this in detail in A People Betrayed (2020) and I am sure he is not alone in doing so. — Brigade Piron ( talk) 10:42, 4 March 2021 (UTC)
The 'snare drum' part reprinted by Kalmus and hosted at IMSLP is labeled Tambours, and seems to be making some distinction between tambour de Basque ( tambourine) and tambourin ( Tabor (instrument)#Usage?). I don't yet quite understand if the Eulenberg score given as a reference for "side drum" uses English, and whether the redirects side drum and field drum need attention. Sparafucil ( talk) 00:57, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
I don't doubt Blades at all about tambourin provençal being Bizet's drum, and reliable sourcing of that might be a problem for the Tabor (instrument) page. What Carmen needs to decide now is whether 'side drum' or tambourin [de Provence? provençal?] should link to tabor, and whether Didion's edition clarifies Bizet's exact term. Sparafucil ( talk) 03:09, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
An IP changed "bass-baritone" to "baritone" in the Roles section. As there was no citation for the change I have reverted it, but I'm not sure it was wrong. The 1905 Peters full score at IMSLP has Escamillo as "Bariton". Any views, please, colleagues? Tim riley talk 21:36, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
Is Don José 'naïve'? Cg2p0B0u8m ( talk) 17:21, 4 March 2021 (UTC)
Hello! This is to let editors know that the featured picture File:Prudent-Louis Leray - Poster for the première of Georges Bizet's Carmen.jpg, which is used in this article, has been selected as the English Wikipedia's picture of the day (POTD) for July 28, 2021. A preview of the POTD is displayed below and can be edited at Template:POTD/2021-07-28. For the greater benefit of readers, any potential improvements or maintenance that could benefit the quality of this article should be done before its scheduled appearance on the Main Page. If you have any concerns, please place a message at Wikipedia talk:Picture of the day. Thank you! Cwmhiraeth ( talk) 12:31, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
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Carmen is an opera in four acts by the French composer Georges Bizet, with a libretto written by Henri Meilhac and Ludovic Halévy based on a novella by Prosper Mérimée. This lithographic poster, illustrated by Prudent-Louis Leray, advertised the opera's premiere, which took place in Paris on 3 March 1875. It was not initially a success; the audience at the Opéra-Comique was shocked by the drastic realism of the action and by the low standing and immorality of most of the characters. However, later that year, after Bizet's unexpected death, an adaptation by Ernest Guiraud performed by the Vienna Court Opera became a great success with the public, and Guiraud's version went on to achieve worldwide fame. Poster credit: Prudent-Louis Leray; restored by Adam Cuerden |
The following Wikimedia Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 17:52, 4 February 2022 (UTC)
The Beer Song is a parody using the melody from the prelude to Act I. It sounds like Weird Al, but it would be his only song about alcohol or drugs, so might be someone else. All versions that I've seen on the internet attribute the artist to others, but they are inconsistent. Vinzklorthos ( talk) 00:14, 13 October 2023 (UTC)
In the "Musical numbers" section, it looks strange to see the three entr'actes placed at the end of the previous act. Shouldn't those be listed at the beginning of each act as they are curtain raisers? Does this have something to do with the numbering? 2600:1700:243D:20E0:6DCD:AF80:C5BF:7950 ( talk) 04:12, 3 November 2023 (UTC)