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(Removed material per WP:BLP.)
Some of this article needs to be re-written from a neural point of view. -- Cmoxon 08:32, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
(Removed material per WP:BLP.)—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.83.113.202 ( talk • contribs) 23:28, 14 May 2006.
Regardless of her conduct and performance, a neutral tone should be maintained. This is to prevent potential bias issues from occuring. Wikipedia is meant to be fact-based, not opinionated. Torinir
I tagged this article, because it continues to be tremendously biased. Attempts to correct a former heavy bias against Fiorina have not helped the matter, on the contrary. This article represents some of the worst of Wikipedia: It appears that some of the authors have a very personal ax to grind, others try to correct the bias with material that seems to want to prove that she's a good person after all, and finally someone adds personal trivia, none of which belongs in an encyclopdia. The achievement of Carly Fiorina continues to be inadequately represented. This article should be rewritten from scratch. I am still looking around for an adequate model (articles on Lou Gerstner, Jack Welch, etc.), but neither of the articles I checked is of any quality -- the biography group at Wikipedia is in urgent need of people with business knowledge who represent the achievement of these business leaders objectively and with insight. Jinmex 00:42, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
Just wanted to point out that the picture looks like it's being censored by a white square with digitalfreedom.gov written on it. Even in the full size picture, it's hard to tell that it's her podium and not editing. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.74.192.85 ( talk • contribs) 22:52, 29 April 2006.
It is odd. Why not use the official HP photo of her? http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/execteam/bios/fiorina.html 06:02, 18 July 2006 User999999
(Removed material per WP:BLP.)
Someone was fast in updating the info on her getting fired.
It's hard to believe anyone is disputing the fact that she was fired, or trying to sugarcoat it by saying she resigned after she was asked to do so. It was a clear-cut boardroom ousting. Also, I read up on several articles analyzing the post-Fiorina prospects, and found no mention of Compaq devolving once again into an independent company. If you wish to include this reference, please cite it.-- A. S. A. 11:42, Feb 10, 2005 (UTC)
I followed the link given as source for the numbers about her parting benefits, but here the total amount is given as $21 million, not $42 million. Did I overlook something? regards, High on a tree 04:08, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)
What she a receptionist somewhere? -- Toytoy 01:56, Apr 25, 2005 (UTC)
Can some be removed? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Snafuu ( talk • contribs) 15:03, 30 July 2005.
I'd never heard of this woman before today. This 'encyclopaedia' article about her is crude and uninformative, and I suspect, highly biased. 55% out of 100. It would be 40%, but it's 'free' after all. Unsigned
If you have never heard of her before, you probably don't work in the computer business. Her mismanagement of HP is now legendary.
It is a bit crude, yes. But it is not as bad as you think. If it is be about the truth, it has to be fairly brutal since the HP story is not a pretty story.
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.129.124.44 ( talk • contribs) 18:03, 28 April 2006.
Regardless of whether Carly drove the company into the ground or made it the #1 company in the world, the article needs to be written in neutral tones. The language used in the current article appears very negative and needs a rewrite. Torinir
Carly did not drive the company into the ground; quite the opposite. In the wake of the bursting of the dot-com bubble, a lot of tech companies were hurting, Hewlett-Packard not least among them. Compaq was headed towards bankruptcy despite Capellas' staving it off as much as possible, and HP wasn't far behind.
The merger was purely a business move - and a shrewd one. The combined PC market share put Hewlett Packard into the #1 spot, and "efficiencies" - layoffs of people in duplicated functions across the two companies - made that part of the company marginally profitable, as opposed to break even at HP and money losing at Compaq. More importantly, combining the service operations kept the bottom line from continuing to evaporate. HP continued to lose market share for a few months after the merger, as predicted in the merger plans, but that market share actually stabilized above where it was expected to stabilize.
The merger itself was executed much more smoothly than expected, thanks largely to Capellas' operational skill. HP would perhaps have been better off with Capellas continuing as COO, but it's pretty clear that Carly planned for him to leave after the job of merging operations was done, whether he knew that or not.
The dislike for Carly stems from two sources. The first is engineers who had been treated well under the old HP and ended up laid off under the merger. The fact is, though, that the post-burst tech world wasn't the world of the 1950s HP any more, and that model would not have survived. The second is Wall street stock pickers who feel threatened by woman CEOs for some reason. In their mind, Carly was the reason HP stock tanked in the wake of the dot-com bubble, while none of the male CEOs whose tech companies followed the same stock price curve got blamed.
And yes, I owned HP stock at the time, I voted for the merger, and I made money from it. Making money for the stockholders is the bottom line for any CEO. Warren Dew ( talk) 06:33, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
(Removed section per WP:BLP.)
While it may be that she made a lot of mistakes at HP, are there still no positive comments to be made? I wouldn't go so far as to call this article 'biased', but it does seem to be lacking some balanced dialogue. I'd love to see some more history about her early career, as well as a better, more in depth discussion as to why her decisions were viewed as so harmful to the company by so many people. We should also consider an explanation/discussion regarding her book, now that it is on shelves. Perditor 21:06, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
This article seems more like a personal smear campaign against this woman, who lead the merger between the Hewlett and Packard families. She was clearly no saint, but she didn't "run the company into the ground"--unlike the CEO's of Enron, American Airlines, Adelphia etc. And the claim that she was "held on far longer than she should have purely based on her gender" is completely ridiculous. I mean, are we seriously suggesting that the American business world is being pussy-whipped by affirmative action feminists into retaining female CEO's? Scared, victimized, billionaire males on the board of directors at one of the most profitable companies in the United States? Please! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Erin1983 ( talk • contribs) .
MONGO has rolled this article back [2] to this version ... A very large portion of the edits made in the interim, now rolled back, were by socks of permanently banned user Amorrow, or tags added in response to things added by those socks. Users include RidinHood25 and 75.36.230.91, who did the bulk, as well as others. Please review the history for anything lost that is key. Please also keep WP:BLP in mind, don't just blindly add things back because they have a cite. This article was shifting in the direction of a smear job and Amorrow's recent edits were pushing it along. This sort of corrosive and damaging editing behaviour, possibly to be used as part of a real life stalking campaign, is why Amorrow is "ban on sight, revert on site" here. Please be on the lookout for suspicious edits and bring them to the attention of concerned editors. ++ Lar: t/ c 20:59, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
2003:
http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/67/carly.html
How Carly arrived at HP
2005:
http://it.slashdot.org/comments.pl?threshold=5&mode=nested&commentsort=0&op=Change&sid=141506
An Engineer's View of Carly Fiorina's Leadership
2005:
http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/2005/02/07/8250437/index.htm
Why Carly's Big Bet is Failing
2005:
http://it.slashdot.org/comments.pl?threshold=5&mode=nested&commentsort=0&op=Change&sid=138854
HP CEO Carly Fiorina to Step Down
2006:
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?threshold=5&mode=nested&commentsort=0&op=Change&sid=190623
Forbes Now Thinks Carly Saved HP
http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2007/fortune/0709/gallery.MPW_100_years.fortune/14.html
summary
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.116.132.217 ( talk) 18:04, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
This reads like a fan page. It makes her departure from HP sould like she was somehow a victim, which could not be farther from the truth There is also nothing listed about the fact that under her leadership, hundreds of HP employees had their personal records compromised. The entire artical is far too suger coated —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.160.5.25 ( talk) 15:13, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
"The company has become the world's largest personal computer and printer-maker and its share price has doubled since she left -- the fruits, say defenders and even some critics, of foundations she laid. Today, it's difficult to find a former adversary in Silicon Valley who will criticize her." [Emphasis added.] -- Iterator12n Talk 04:16, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
Weasel words aren't sources. The article doesn't cite any. 12.195.103.2 ( talk) 18:28, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
The problem is that we have anonymous unknown "some critics" being cited in a fashion that's almost impossible to argue against. If I cite several examples of critics who don't credit her with HP's success, the weasel wording in this article will still be used as evidence to the contrary. Outsourcing the weasel wording to poorly written journalism doesn't make the point any more accurate. 12.195.103.2 ( talk) 19:26, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
Why is it necessary to include details like 'When Fiorina was asked by the Board of Directors to step down in 2005, the company stated that Fiorina had put in place “a plan that has given HP the capabilities to compete and win" and that HP "look[ed] forward to accelerating execution of the company's strategy".' Shouldn't it be limited to something like "She served as CEO of Hewlett-Packard between 1999 and 2005"? Accolades, controversies, etc. should be relegated to the appropriate sections. Pxlt ( talk) 04:16, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
I removed the following: CNN reported that the McCain campaign announced that Fiorina would no longer act as a surrogate for the campaign, stating "Carly will now disappear. Senator McCain was furious. Maybe rewrite without political slant and agenda? -- Tom 13:00, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
The MSNBC story referenced the Huffington Post story which referenced the CNN article now cited. CNN is a valid base source and is the one that should be cited (as it is in my edit, now restored). This incident happened, the story was reported as documented. I hold no real agenda here but clearly you can't just delete all mention of it. I left out the specific quotes because they unnamed and anyway are just too much detail for a general biographical article. Jgm ( talk) 03:25, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
There seems to be some confusion between a "blog" and a self-published source. Something isn't prohibited simply because the word "blog" is used. "Blogs" of organizations that already qualify as a reliable published source also are considered reliable. / Blaxthos ( t / c ) 00:27, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
The "reliable sources" section of WP:BLP states:
Some newspapers host interactive columns that they call blogs, and these may be acceptable as sources so long as the writers are professionals and the blog is subject to the newspaper's full editorial control.
I contend this is precisely the case with the CNN Political Ticker cited -- the writers are professionals whose stories appear throughout the publication, and are clearly writing under normal journalistic control and editorial oversight, not to express personal opinion. Therefore it is not necessary to muddy the reference with any weasel words beyond "CNN reported". Jgm ( talk) 02:04, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
(←) I dug up the history of that statement at wp:v yesterday. First of all, the policy specifically refers to "interactive columns" from "newspapers" that happen to call themselves blogs. Political Ticker is not an "interactive column," and I believe it's a stretch to say every post goes through the same controls as a newspaper story. In any event, the critical thing, as I see it, is that if this alleged excommunicating was fact and was sourceable, it would be covered by the mainstream media other than at a CNN Blog. So far, a few newspapers have opined on Fiorina's comments on their editorial pages, but I've yet to find a single report on what the CNN Blog alleged. That says a lot in my mind; if you believe the CNN Blog is a reliable source, fine. I think you're wrong. :) But the bigger issue here, in my opinion, is we're placing much undue weight on a report from a blog that has yet to see any widespread reporting. It isn't biographical, yet (unless she indeed never returns to the campaign trail, but we're not fortune tellers, even if CNN is). user:j (aka justen) 16:35, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
Dude, the term "blog" implies self-published, which is clearly not the case. Stop trying to equate the two -- continuing to do so is in bad faith. There is absolutely no justification for attempting to poison the well by using the misleading "blogged" in the article. // Blaxthos ( t / c ) 22:26, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
(←) Blaxthos, you seem to be assuming a lot, quite a bit of it incorrectly. Do I "draw a line" between what CNN "blogs" about and what it broadcasts? Absolutely. If they're not willing to give it airtime or put it on cnn.com proper, there's a reason. Do I think CNN's blog is the same thing as the Huffington Post? No; the former is endorsed by what purports to be an objective news outlet, the latter admittedly has its own political opinions (which I often happen to agree with, for what it's worth). Nevertheless, CNN chose to call "Political Ticker" a blog, and (indeed) that's what it is. In any event, I (and others now) are still waiting for some reliable sourcing (aside from a CNN blog); the only other source I see in the article history is the Huff Post. Can you please be more explicit in what sources you're referring to? user:j (aka justen) 00:42, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
MSNBC is unquestionably a reliable source, and Countdown with Keith Olbermann is generally accepted and frequently used as a reliable source all over Wikipedia. Not satisfied? How about Jimmy Orr with the Christian Science Monitor ( Is Fiorina finished? Two big mistakes get Carly in trouble) (which specifically uses the phrase "CNN is reporting", not "blogging")? AOL News reports the quote from its own source, independent of CNN entirely ( Will Carly Fiorina 'Disappear' Like Gramm?). CNN, MSNBC, CSM, and AOL News have all published the quote, which means multiple, independent sourcing. There is no question of verifiability that the statement was made, there is no denial of it by anyone. It really seems like you're more concerned about how the statement makes Fiorina look than you are with whether it actually occurred. // Blaxthos ( t / c ) 02:30, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
Editors have incrementally gone from arguing nits over how sources are referenced to removing well-referenced facts, to now deleting nearly a whole section with the comment "un-encyclopedic"; this is silly, transparently POV, and should stop. A public person becomes even more public upon entering politics, their documented public actions and the documented reactions to those actions are eminently encyclopedic and should clearly be included here. Jgm ( talk) 16:12, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
(←) I completely disagree with the inclusion of the Saturday Night Live nonsense, but so long as it stays, we should strive for accuracy and neutrality (the skit Fiorina was discussing did involve two politicians). I'm going to be away for most of the rest of today, but it looks like you were able to find a reliable source for the "massive end of the world unimaginably huge" scandal, which alleviates the immediate wp:blp concern there. user:j (aka justen) 17:11, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
In an attempt to render a third opinion here, I find myself unable to adequately verify that 1) there are only two editors involved in a content dispute, and 2) what exactly that dispute may be. Involved parties, please provide a one sentence summary of the issue as you see it. Jclemens ( talk) 03:49, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
Jclemens: Getting back to your questions of WP:NOT#NEWS and WP:NOTNEWS... there is no question that there has been a dramatic shift in Carly's role in the McCain campaign. Since she is and adviser to McCain, and since she was a surrogate of the campaign until recently, it's fundamental that the reason for and context surrounding her changed role is explained. Since we have a subsection dedicated to her political activities, and since her recent missteps and campaign response have gotten fair amounts of press (multiple reliable sources), quoting the source directly is the most prudent way to represent the situation. Any sort of analysis, or attempts to re-color the statement in the stories (which were the subject of the stories), adds undue editorial influence. Ignoring the statement entirely, treating them as a simple news flash, largely whitewashes the significance of the entire issue. Hope this helps. // Blaxthos ( t / c ) 03:20, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
Associated Press ( http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5i1kDc35TIy2-ITakDUW0fjjciQlQD96MP2UG0) says that she lives in Los Altos Hills, not Palo Alto. -- haha169 ( talk) 06:08, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
Copying from wp:blp/n:
The article was just semi-protected by Tom harrison. Unfortunately, User:Jgm decided to reinsert the material anyway, with an edit summary that included: "add link to article on source so readers can gauge import." The simple fact we're including it adds credence to the "import" of the source. I think wp:blp is clear: stick to the facts (and, perhaps, include notable opinion when it can be impeccably sourced and clearly named). It's about as clear a poorly-sourced, controversial statement as you can get, and adding a link to it doesn't make it any better sourced or less controversial. user:J aka justen ( talk) 14:41, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
Jgm ( talk) 14:56, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
Please discuss the edits, not the people making them. Tom Harrison Talk 17:07, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
(Removed material per WP:BLP.)
Some of this article needs to be re-written from a neural point of view. -- Cmoxon 08:32, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
(Removed material per WP:BLP.)—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.83.113.202 ( talk • contribs) 23:28, 14 May 2006.
Regardless of her conduct and performance, a neutral tone should be maintained. This is to prevent potential bias issues from occuring. Wikipedia is meant to be fact-based, not opinionated. Torinir
I tagged this article, because it continues to be tremendously biased. Attempts to correct a former heavy bias against Fiorina have not helped the matter, on the contrary. This article represents some of the worst of Wikipedia: It appears that some of the authors have a very personal ax to grind, others try to correct the bias with material that seems to want to prove that she's a good person after all, and finally someone adds personal trivia, none of which belongs in an encyclopdia. The achievement of Carly Fiorina continues to be inadequately represented. This article should be rewritten from scratch. I am still looking around for an adequate model (articles on Lou Gerstner, Jack Welch, etc.), but neither of the articles I checked is of any quality -- the biography group at Wikipedia is in urgent need of people with business knowledge who represent the achievement of these business leaders objectively and with insight. Jinmex 00:42, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
Just wanted to point out that the picture looks like it's being censored by a white square with digitalfreedom.gov written on it. Even in the full size picture, it's hard to tell that it's her podium and not editing. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.74.192.85 ( talk • contribs) 22:52, 29 April 2006.
It is odd. Why not use the official HP photo of her? http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/execteam/bios/fiorina.html 06:02, 18 July 2006 User999999
(Removed material per WP:BLP.)
Someone was fast in updating the info on her getting fired.
It's hard to believe anyone is disputing the fact that she was fired, or trying to sugarcoat it by saying she resigned after she was asked to do so. It was a clear-cut boardroom ousting. Also, I read up on several articles analyzing the post-Fiorina prospects, and found no mention of Compaq devolving once again into an independent company. If you wish to include this reference, please cite it.-- A. S. A. 11:42, Feb 10, 2005 (UTC)
I followed the link given as source for the numbers about her parting benefits, but here the total amount is given as $21 million, not $42 million. Did I overlook something? regards, High on a tree 04:08, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)
What she a receptionist somewhere? -- Toytoy 01:56, Apr 25, 2005 (UTC)
Can some be removed? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Snafuu ( talk • contribs) 15:03, 30 July 2005.
I'd never heard of this woman before today. This 'encyclopaedia' article about her is crude and uninformative, and I suspect, highly biased. 55% out of 100. It would be 40%, but it's 'free' after all. Unsigned
If you have never heard of her before, you probably don't work in the computer business. Her mismanagement of HP is now legendary.
It is a bit crude, yes. But it is not as bad as you think. If it is be about the truth, it has to be fairly brutal since the HP story is not a pretty story.
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.129.124.44 ( talk • contribs) 18:03, 28 April 2006.
Regardless of whether Carly drove the company into the ground or made it the #1 company in the world, the article needs to be written in neutral tones. The language used in the current article appears very negative and needs a rewrite. Torinir
Carly did not drive the company into the ground; quite the opposite. In the wake of the bursting of the dot-com bubble, a lot of tech companies were hurting, Hewlett-Packard not least among them. Compaq was headed towards bankruptcy despite Capellas' staving it off as much as possible, and HP wasn't far behind.
The merger was purely a business move - and a shrewd one. The combined PC market share put Hewlett Packard into the #1 spot, and "efficiencies" - layoffs of people in duplicated functions across the two companies - made that part of the company marginally profitable, as opposed to break even at HP and money losing at Compaq. More importantly, combining the service operations kept the bottom line from continuing to evaporate. HP continued to lose market share for a few months after the merger, as predicted in the merger plans, but that market share actually stabilized above where it was expected to stabilize.
The merger itself was executed much more smoothly than expected, thanks largely to Capellas' operational skill. HP would perhaps have been better off with Capellas continuing as COO, but it's pretty clear that Carly planned for him to leave after the job of merging operations was done, whether he knew that or not.
The dislike for Carly stems from two sources. The first is engineers who had been treated well under the old HP and ended up laid off under the merger. The fact is, though, that the post-burst tech world wasn't the world of the 1950s HP any more, and that model would not have survived. The second is Wall street stock pickers who feel threatened by woman CEOs for some reason. In their mind, Carly was the reason HP stock tanked in the wake of the dot-com bubble, while none of the male CEOs whose tech companies followed the same stock price curve got blamed.
And yes, I owned HP stock at the time, I voted for the merger, and I made money from it. Making money for the stockholders is the bottom line for any CEO. Warren Dew ( talk) 06:33, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
(Removed section per WP:BLP.)
While it may be that she made a lot of mistakes at HP, are there still no positive comments to be made? I wouldn't go so far as to call this article 'biased', but it does seem to be lacking some balanced dialogue. I'd love to see some more history about her early career, as well as a better, more in depth discussion as to why her decisions were viewed as so harmful to the company by so many people. We should also consider an explanation/discussion regarding her book, now that it is on shelves. Perditor 21:06, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
This article seems more like a personal smear campaign against this woman, who lead the merger between the Hewlett and Packard families. She was clearly no saint, but she didn't "run the company into the ground"--unlike the CEO's of Enron, American Airlines, Adelphia etc. And the claim that she was "held on far longer than she should have purely based on her gender" is completely ridiculous. I mean, are we seriously suggesting that the American business world is being pussy-whipped by affirmative action feminists into retaining female CEO's? Scared, victimized, billionaire males on the board of directors at one of the most profitable companies in the United States? Please! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Erin1983 ( talk • contribs) .
MONGO has rolled this article back [2] to this version ... A very large portion of the edits made in the interim, now rolled back, were by socks of permanently banned user Amorrow, or tags added in response to things added by those socks. Users include RidinHood25 and 75.36.230.91, who did the bulk, as well as others. Please review the history for anything lost that is key. Please also keep WP:BLP in mind, don't just blindly add things back because they have a cite. This article was shifting in the direction of a smear job and Amorrow's recent edits were pushing it along. This sort of corrosive and damaging editing behaviour, possibly to be used as part of a real life stalking campaign, is why Amorrow is "ban on sight, revert on site" here. Please be on the lookout for suspicious edits and bring them to the attention of concerned editors. ++ Lar: t/ c 20:59, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
2003:
http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/67/carly.html
How Carly arrived at HP
2005:
http://it.slashdot.org/comments.pl?threshold=5&mode=nested&commentsort=0&op=Change&sid=141506
An Engineer's View of Carly Fiorina's Leadership
2005:
http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/2005/02/07/8250437/index.htm
Why Carly's Big Bet is Failing
2005:
http://it.slashdot.org/comments.pl?threshold=5&mode=nested&commentsort=0&op=Change&sid=138854
HP CEO Carly Fiorina to Step Down
2006:
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?threshold=5&mode=nested&commentsort=0&op=Change&sid=190623
Forbes Now Thinks Carly Saved HP
http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2007/fortune/0709/gallery.MPW_100_years.fortune/14.html
summary
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.116.132.217 ( talk) 18:04, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
This reads like a fan page. It makes her departure from HP sould like she was somehow a victim, which could not be farther from the truth There is also nothing listed about the fact that under her leadership, hundreds of HP employees had their personal records compromised. The entire artical is far too suger coated —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.160.5.25 ( talk) 15:13, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
"The company has become the world's largest personal computer and printer-maker and its share price has doubled since she left -- the fruits, say defenders and even some critics, of foundations she laid. Today, it's difficult to find a former adversary in Silicon Valley who will criticize her." [Emphasis added.] -- Iterator12n Talk 04:16, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
Weasel words aren't sources. The article doesn't cite any. 12.195.103.2 ( talk) 18:28, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
The problem is that we have anonymous unknown "some critics" being cited in a fashion that's almost impossible to argue against. If I cite several examples of critics who don't credit her with HP's success, the weasel wording in this article will still be used as evidence to the contrary. Outsourcing the weasel wording to poorly written journalism doesn't make the point any more accurate. 12.195.103.2 ( talk) 19:26, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
Why is it necessary to include details like 'When Fiorina was asked by the Board of Directors to step down in 2005, the company stated that Fiorina had put in place “a plan that has given HP the capabilities to compete and win" and that HP "look[ed] forward to accelerating execution of the company's strategy".' Shouldn't it be limited to something like "She served as CEO of Hewlett-Packard between 1999 and 2005"? Accolades, controversies, etc. should be relegated to the appropriate sections. Pxlt ( talk) 04:16, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
I removed the following: CNN reported that the McCain campaign announced that Fiorina would no longer act as a surrogate for the campaign, stating "Carly will now disappear. Senator McCain was furious. Maybe rewrite without political slant and agenda? -- Tom 13:00, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
The MSNBC story referenced the Huffington Post story which referenced the CNN article now cited. CNN is a valid base source and is the one that should be cited (as it is in my edit, now restored). This incident happened, the story was reported as documented. I hold no real agenda here but clearly you can't just delete all mention of it. I left out the specific quotes because they unnamed and anyway are just too much detail for a general biographical article. Jgm ( talk) 03:25, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
There seems to be some confusion between a "blog" and a self-published source. Something isn't prohibited simply because the word "blog" is used. "Blogs" of organizations that already qualify as a reliable published source also are considered reliable. / Blaxthos ( t / c ) 00:27, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
The "reliable sources" section of WP:BLP states:
Some newspapers host interactive columns that they call blogs, and these may be acceptable as sources so long as the writers are professionals and the blog is subject to the newspaper's full editorial control.
I contend this is precisely the case with the CNN Political Ticker cited -- the writers are professionals whose stories appear throughout the publication, and are clearly writing under normal journalistic control and editorial oversight, not to express personal opinion. Therefore it is not necessary to muddy the reference with any weasel words beyond "CNN reported". Jgm ( talk) 02:04, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
(←) I dug up the history of that statement at wp:v yesterday. First of all, the policy specifically refers to "interactive columns" from "newspapers" that happen to call themselves blogs. Political Ticker is not an "interactive column," and I believe it's a stretch to say every post goes through the same controls as a newspaper story. In any event, the critical thing, as I see it, is that if this alleged excommunicating was fact and was sourceable, it would be covered by the mainstream media other than at a CNN Blog. So far, a few newspapers have opined on Fiorina's comments on their editorial pages, but I've yet to find a single report on what the CNN Blog alleged. That says a lot in my mind; if you believe the CNN Blog is a reliable source, fine. I think you're wrong. :) But the bigger issue here, in my opinion, is we're placing much undue weight on a report from a blog that has yet to see any widespread reporting. It isn't biographical, yet (unless she indeed never returns to the campaign trail, but we're not fortune tellers, even if CNN is). user:j (aka justen) 16:35, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
Dude, the term "blog" implies self-published, which is clearly not the case. Stop trying to equate the two -- continuing to do so is in bad faith. There is absolutely no justification for attempting to poison the well by using the misleading "blogged" in the article. // Blaxthos ( t / c ) 22:26, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
(←) Blaxthos, you seem to be assuming a lot, quite a bit of it incorrectly. Do I "draw a line" between what CNN "blogs" about and what it broadcasts? Absolutely. If they're not willing to give it airtime or put it on cnn.com proper, there's a reason. Do I think CNN's blog is the same thing as the Huffington Post? No; the former is endorsed by what purports to be an objective news outlet, the latter admittedly has its own political opinions (which I often happen to agree with, for what it's worth). Nevertheless, CNN chose to call "Political Ticker" a blog, and (indeed) that's what it is. In any event, I (and others now) are still waiting for some reliable sourcing (aside from a CNN blog); the only other source I see in the article history is the Huff Post. Can you please be more explicit in what sources you're referring to? user:j (aka justen) 00:42, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
MSNBC is unquestionably a reliable source, and Countdown with Keith Olbermann is generally accepted and frequently used as a reliable source all over Wikipedia. Not satisfied? How about Jimmy Orr with the Christian Science Monitor ( Is Fiorina finished? Two big mistakes get Carly in trouble) (which specifically uses the phrase "CNN is reporting", not "blogging")? AOL News reports the quote from its own source, independent of CNN entirely ( Will Carly Fiorina 'Disappear' Like Gramm?). CNN, MSNBC, CSM, and AOL News have all published the quote, which means multiple, independent sourcing. There is no question of verifiability that the statement was made, there is no denial of it by anyone. It really seems like you're more concerned about how the statement makes Fiorina look than you are with whether it actually occurred. // Blaxthos ( t / c ) 02:30, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
Editors have incrementally gone from arguing nits over how sources are referenced to removing well-referenced facts, to now deleting nearly a whole section with the comment "un-encyclopedic"; this is silly, transparently POV, and should stop. A public person becomes even more public upon entering politics, their documented public actions and the documented reactions to those actions are eminently encyclopedic and should clearly be included here. Jgm ( talk) 16:12, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
(←) I completely disagree with the inclusion of the Saturday Night Live nonsense, but so long as it stays, we should strive for accuracy and neutrality (the skit Fiorina was discussing did involve two politicians). I'm going to be away for most of the rest of today, but it looks like you were able to find a reliable source for the "massive end of the world unimaginably huge" scandal, which alleviates the immediate wp:blp concern there. user:j (aka justen) 17:11, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
In an attempt to render a third opinion here, I find myself unable to adequately verify that 1) there are only two editors involved in a content dispute, and 2) what exactly that dispute may be. Involved parties, please provide a one sentence summary of the issue as you see it. Jclemens ( talk) 03:49, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
Jclemens: Getting back to your questions of WP:NOT#NEWS and WP:NOTNEWS... there is no question that there has been a dramatic shift in Carly's role in the McCain campaign. Since she is and adviser to McCain, and since she was a surrogate of the campaign until recently, it's fundamental that the reason for and context surrounding her changed role is explained. Since we have a subsection dedicated to her political activities, and since her recent missteps and campaign response have gotten fair amounts of press (multiple reliable sources), quoting the source directly is the most prudent way to represent the situation. Any sort of analysis, or attempts to re-color the statement in the stories (which were the subject of the stories), adds undue editorial influence. Ignoring the statement entirely, treating them as a simple news flash, largely whitewashes the significance of the entire issue. Hope this helps. // Blaxthos ( t / c ) 03:20, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
Associated Press ( http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5i1kDc35TIy2-ITakDUW0fjjciQlQD96MP2UG0) says that she lives in Los Altos Hills, not Palo Alto. -- haha169 ( talk) 06:08, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
Copying from wp:blp/n:
The article was just semi-protected by Tom harrison. Unfortunately, User:Jgm decided to reinsert the material anyway, with an edit summary that included: "add link to article on source so readers can gauge import." The simple fact we're including it adds credence to the "import" of the source. I think wp:blp is clear: stick to the facts (and, perhaps, include notable opinion when it can be impeccably sourced and clearly named). It's about as clear a poorly-sourced, controversial statement as you can get, and adding a link to it doesn't make it any better sourced or less controversial. user:J aka justen ( talk) 14:41, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
Jgm ( talk) 14:56, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
Please discuss the edits, not the people making them. Tom Harrison Talk 17:07, 8 June 2009 (UTC)