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Just noticed the page move to Caribbean Netherlands. In principle I have no problem with this and I think only in 1-2 years a stable common usage will have established that we can use stably. However, I had never heard of it until here (what was the national office that used it; and how does it translate in Dutch?), but had heard the acronym BES islands quite a lot; (also in names of laws: WOLBES etc). Could someone evaluate what the usage is of caribbean netherlands so we can see what fits best under WP:common name? L.tak ( talk) 17:14, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
I moved the page to remain consistant with the Dutch language wikipedia page "Caribisch Nederland" ( http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caribisch_Nederland) which also uses the name BES-eilanden in the text.
The Dutch Government body that administers the islands is known as "Rijksdienst Caribisch Nederland" ( http://www.rijksdienstcn.com/) which Google toolbar translated as "National Government of the Dutch caribbean" and is listed as the "Dutch National Office for the Caribbean Netherlands" in the external links section.
If this new name does not meet WP:common name requirements, then I could move it back to "BES islands" or to "Bonaire, Sint Eustatius and Saba" until a common name can be established. Dn9ahx ( talk) 19:06, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
Perhaps I did jump-the-gun a little here, I will move it back until to "BES islands" until a common name can be established. Dn9ahx ( talk) 19:19, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
The Central Bureau of Statistics now calls the BES islands Caribbean Netherlands as well, see here and here. Fentener van Vlissingen ( talk) 15:04, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
The name "Caribisch Nederland" is used on new postage stamps issued on the islands - http://www.postzegelblog.nl/2010/10/05/de-nieuwe-zegels-van-curacao-caribisch-nederland-en-sint-maarten/ - http://www.postzegelblog.nl/2010/10/01/het-leven-na-de-antillen/ - the new stamps depict maps of all 3 islands, the coat of arms of the netherlands and an image of the queen. Dn9ahx ( talk) 13:08, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
Given that we don't appear to have any real objections, and since 'Caribbean Netherlands' is used on postage stamps and is much clearer in meaning to the naive reader and therefore IMO an objectively better title aside from CommonName, I'll move back to 'Caribbean Netherlands', but won't object if s.o. reverts the move as premature. — kwami ( talk) 23:31, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
How come this article is deemed to have low importance for the Wikiproject Caribbean? That seems odd, as countries within the Kingdom are given top priority (cf. Talk:Aruba). I wouldn't say this article should have top priority, but somewhere in between low and top would be better I guess. Fentener van Vlissingen ( talk) 20:11, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
I have now nominated the category:BES islands for rename to category:Caribbean Netherlands. The vote takes place at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2010 October 18. L.tak ( talk) 12:45, 18 October 2010 (UTC)
I see that the administration of the 3 islands is being handled by the "The National Office for the Caribbean Netherlands". Was there ever any discussion about the 3 islands collectively becoming a province of the Netherlands, equal to the other provinces? It might be interenswting to add such info if it can be cited from reliable sources. Thanks. - BilCat ( talk) 16:51, 18 October 2010 (UTC)
To avoid a revert war, a discussion what the islands are in a governmenal perspective... As far as I can see, the dutch administrative divisions are arranged in the Grondwet. The grondwet has a chapter "provincies, gemeenten, waterschappen en andere openbare lichamen". After defining the first three, it defines a "openbaar lichaam". The law constituting Bonaire, Saba and Statia (IBES) defines them as "openbare lichaam" within that context. They are thus not a municipality. However, many tasks normal residing with a municipality are performed. Therefore they are often (but NOT in legal terms) referred to as "special municipalities" (e.g. ministry of foreign affairs. That part seems (to me at least) not very ambiguous. The point is the translation. A "openbaar lichaam" was translated as public body, but according to BHL not correct. The Dutch Bank however translates to public bodies. So the relevant questions for this wiki are: what should the translation be? and why is public body not correct? Do we have anywhere formal translations? L.tak ( talk) 08:59, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
public realm —Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.96.210.233 ( talk) 14:29, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
I've been a bit reverty on this one, so I feel the need to explain myself.
In ISO 3166-1, "Bonaire, Saint Eustatius and Saba" is defined as this territory's preferred name. This is a fairly influential place to be defined, and we can be certain now that whenever the jurisdiction that this article refers to crops up in a UN almanac or any number of hundreds of other locations that take their lead from ISO, it will be under that name rather than "Carribbean Netherlands" or any of the other namespaces that this article has hopped around since its creation.
Now, Wikipedia naming rules are not magically subservient to ISO dictat and there are handful of places where we do have differences... For instance, there's the eternal East Timor/ Timor-Leste and Ivory Coast/ Côte d'Ivoire kerfuffles and the case of that country run by rather unsavoury folks between Thailand and India. Wikipedia's MoS gallantly defends São Tomé and Príncipe's ISO-amputated diacritics, for one example I'm perfectly supportive of.
"Caribbean Netherlands" is indeed in official use in some corners, and potentially entering popular use. But ISO's names do emerge from governmental consultation, too, and there evidently was some reason offered by someone at some level that led to the assigning of this article's subject matter under "Bonaire, Saint Eustatius and Saba" rather than "Caribbean Netherlands".
In the case of this article, I think a move to Bonaire, Saint Eustatius and Saba would be premature at this point. But surely it merits billing in the lead as an alternate officialish name, no? The Tom ( talk) 02:48, 10 January 2011 (UTC)
I think the infbox makes confusion here, because the infobox "country" is used. This is not correct, because Caribean Netherlands is not a country, province or colony of the Netherlands. Caribean Netherlands is just a collective term for three Dutch municipalities in the Caribean area. Like "Northern Netherlands" is the collective term for the three Dutch provinces Groningen, Fryslân and Drenthe. The term is only used so make a difference between European Netherlands and Caribean Netherlands. For example: the CBS (Statistics Netherlands) uses this terms to show the differences between the European and Caribean part of the Netherlands. The term "Caribean Netherlands" is not used in the Dutch law, therefore is BES-islands used, because the three islands were (while the laws were passing the Dutch parliament) still part of the Dutch Antilles (this was an independence of "the Netherlands" (Nederland), but a part of the Kingdom. The Dutch parliament couldn't talk about "Caribean Netherlands", because of the reason they did not exist at those times.
But, back to the relationship of Infobox and name, the Caribean Netherlands is not an official area. It's only used as a fifth wind direction (windstreek): the Netherlands has five "regions": Nothern-, Eastern-, Southern-, Western- and Caribean Netherlands, but they have no offical status. For these regions there are only (sometimes) some support of the gouvernment: like the Langmangelden (money of Langman) for the Northern Netherlands and the Rijksdienst Caribisch Nederland (National Office for the Caribbean Netherlands) to support the three municipalities in the intergrating proces in the Netherlands.
So, the infobox has to be deleted., I think. Sorry for my bad English... :) -- I90Christian ( talk) 14:16, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
The article Dutch Caribbean currently redirects to this article, which (following the 10/10/10 constitutional changes) discusses the three "BES islands." However, in general and based on my understanding and review of sources, the term "Dutch Caribbean" refers to all the Caribbean islands within the Kingdom of the Netherlands—that is, it includes Aruba, Curacao, and Sint Martin in addition to Bonaire, Saba, and Sint Eustatius. Can editors with greater subject-matter expertise opine on whether this redirect should be reconsidered? Thanks, Newyorkbrad ( talk) 02:42, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
I'm placing a Template:Citation needed to the part where it says that the BES-islands are not part of the EU. The inhabitants of the BES-islands were allowed to vote for the European parliament during the EU elections of 2014 and with a bit of Googling around, I do see several websites stating that the BES-islands have the status of "overseas territories" but not that this means that the BES-islands are not part of the European Union. In fact, the BBC specifically states that in fact they are part of the EU. I do know they are not part of Schengen, but I'm confused about their actual status and would like to see some clarification. PPP ( talk) 20:50, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
69.201.166.50 ( talk) 17:35, 13 May 2016 (UTC)
A suggestion to place in brackets the main BES island associated with an Islet - and this is an easy one. E.g Kleine Bonaire (Bonaire) There appear to be many islets iin the BES islands it would be good to know to which of the 3 islands they pertain. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Browzman ( talk • contribs) 12:43, 2 October 2016 (UTC)
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Caribbean Netherlands article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
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Just noticed the page move to Caribbean Netherlands. In principle I have no problem with this and I think only in 1-2 years a stable common usage will have established that we can use stably. However, I had never heard of it until here (what was the national office that used it; and how does it translate in Dutch?), but had heard the acronym BES islands quite a lot; (also in names of laws: WOLBES etc). Could someone evaluate what the usage is of caribbean netherlands so we can see what fits best under WP:common name? L.tak ( talk) 17:14, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
I moved the page to remain consistant with the Dutch language wikipedia page "Caribisch Nederland" ( http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caribisch_Nederland) which also uses the name BES-eilanden in the text.
The Dutch Government body that administers the islands is known as "Rijksdienst Caribisch Nederland" ( http://www.rijksdienstcn.com/) which Google toolbar translated as "National Government of the Dutch caribbean" and is listed as the "Dutch National Office for the Caribbean Netherlands" in the external links section.
If this new name does not meet WP:common name requirements, then I could move it back to "BES islands" or to "Bonaire, Sint Eustatius and Saba" until a common name can be established. Dn9ahx ( talk) 19:06, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
Perhaps I did jump-the-gun a little here, I will move it back until to "BES islands" until a common name can be established. Dn9ahx ( talk) 19:19, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
The Central Bureau of Statistics now calls the BES islands Caribbean Netherlands as well, see here and here. Fentener van Vlissingen ( talk) 15:04, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
The name "Caribisch Nederland" is used on new postage stamps issued on the islands - http://www.postzegelblog.nl/2010/10/05/de-nieuwe-zegels-van-curacao-caribisch-nederland-en-sint-maarten/ - http://www.postzegelblog.nl/2010/10/01/het-leven-na-de-antillen/ - the new stamps depict maps of all 3 islands, the coat of arms of the netherlands and an image of the queen. Dn9ahx ( talk) 13:08, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
Given that we don't appear to have any real objections, and since 'Caribbean Netherlands' is used on postage stamps and is much clearer in meaning to the naive reader and therefore IMO an objectively better title aside from CommonName, I'll move back to 'Caribbean Netherlands', but won't object if s.o. reverts the move as premature. — kwami ( talk) 23:31, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
How come this article is deemed to have low importance for the Wikiproject Caribbean? That seems odd, as countries within the Kingdom are given top priority (cf. Talk:Aruba). I wouldn't say this article should have top priority, but somewhere in between low and top would be better I guess. Fentener van Vlissingen ( talk) 20:11, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
I have now nominated the category:BES islands for rename to category:Caribbean Netherlands. The vote takes place at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2010 October 18. L.tak ( talk) 12:45, 18 October 2010 (UTC)
I see that the administration of the 3 islands is being handled by the "The National Office for the Caribbean Netherlands". Was there ever any discussion about the 3 islands collectively becoming a province of the Netherlands, equal to the other provinces? It might be interenswting to add such info if it can be cited from reliable sources. Thanks. - BilCat ( talk) 16:51, 18 October 2010 (UTC)
To avoid a revert war, a discussion what the islands are in a governmenal perspective... As far as I can see, the dutch administrative divisions are arranged in the Grondwet. The grondwet has a chapter "provincies, gemeenten, waterschappen en andere openbare lichamen". After defining the first three, it defines a "openbaar lichaam". The law constituting Bonaire, Saba and Statia (IBES) defines them as "openbare lichaam" within that context. They are thus not a municipality. However, many tasks normal residing with a municipality are performed. Therefore they are often (but NOT in legal terms) referred to as "special municipalities" (e.g. ministry of foreign affairs. That part seems (to me at least) not very ambiguous. The point is the translation. A "openbaar lichaam" was translated as public body, but according to BHL not correct. The Dutch Bank however translates to public bodies. So the relevant questions for this wiki are: what should the translation be? and why is public body not correct? Do we have anywhere formal translations? L.tak ( talk) 08:59, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
public realm —Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.96.210.233 ( talk) 14:29, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
I've been a bit reverty on this one, so I feel the need to explain myself.
In ISO 3166-1, "Bonaire, Saint Eustatius and Saba" is defined as this territory's preferred name. This is a fairly influential place to be defined, and we can be certain now that whenever the jurisdiction that this article refers to crops up in a UN almanac or any number of hundreds of other locations that take their lead from ISO, it will be under that name rather than "Carribbean Netherlands" or any of the other namespaces that this article has hopped around since its creation.
Now, Wikipedia naming rules are not magically subservient to ISO dictat and there are handful of places where we do have differences... For instance, there's the eternal East Timor/ Timor-Leste and Ivory Coast/ Côte d'Ivoire kerfuffles and the case of that country run by rather unsavoury folks between Thailand and India. Wikipedia's MoS gallantly defends São Tomé and Príncipe's ISO-amputated diacritics, for one example I'm perfectly supportive of.
"Caribbean Netherlands" is indeed in official use in some corners, and potentially entering popular use. But ISO's names do emerge from governmental consultation, too, and there evidently was some reason offered by someone at some level that led to the assigning of this article's subject matter under "Bonaire, Saint Eustatius and Saba" rather than "Caribbean Netherlands".
In the case of this article, I think a move to Bonaire, Saint Eustatius and Saba would be premature at this point. But surely it merits billing in the lead as an alternate officialish name, no? The Tom ( talk) 02:48, 10 January 2011 (UTC)
I think the infbox makes confusion here, because the infobox "country" is used. This is not correct, because Caribean Netherlands is not a country, province or colony of the Netherlands. Caribean Netherlands is just a collective term for three Dutch municipalities in the Caribean area. Like "Northern Netherlands" is the collective term for the three Dutch provinces Groningen, Fryslân and Drenthe. The term is only used so make a difference between European Netherlands and Caribean Netherlands. For example: the CBS (Statistics Netherlands) uses this terms to show the differences between the European and Caribean part of the Netherlands. The term "Caribean Netherlands" is not used in the Dutch law, therefore is BES-islands used, because the three islands were (while the laws were passing the Dutch parliament) still part of the Dutch Antilles (this was an independence of "the Netherlands" (Nederland), but a part of the Kingdom. The Dutch parliament couldn't talk about "Caribean Netherlands", because of the reason they did not exist at those times.
But, back to the relationship of Infobox and name, the Caribean Netherlands is not an official area. It's only used as a fifth wind direction (windstreek): the Netherlands has five "regions": Nothern-, Eastern-, Southern-, Western- and Caribean Netherlands, but they have no offical status. For these regions there are only (sometimes) some support of the gouvernment: like the Langmangelden (money of Langman) for the Northern Netherlands and the Rijksdienst Caribisch Nederland (National Office for the Caribbean Netherlands) to support the three municipalities in the intergrating proces in the Netherlands.
So, the infobox has to be deleted., I think. Sorry for my bad English... :) -- I90Christian ( talk) 14:16, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
The article Dutch Caribbean currently redirects to this article, which (following the 10/10/10 constitutional changes) discusses the three "BES islands." However, in general and based on my understanding and review of sources, the term "Dutch Caribbean" refers to all the Caribbean islands within the Kingdom of the Netherlands—that is, it includes Aruba, Curacao, and Sint Martin in addition to Bonaire, Saba, and Sint Eustatius. Can editors with greater subject-matter expertise opine on whether this redirect should be reconsidered? Thanks, Newyorkbrad ( talk) 02:42, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
I'm placing a Template:Citation needed to the part where it says that the BES-islands are not part of the EU. The inhabitants of the BES-islands were allowed to vote for the European parliament during the EU elections of 2014 and with a bit of Googling around, I do see several websites stating that the BES-islands have the status of "overseas territories" but not that this means that the BES-islands are not part of the European Union. In fact, the BBC specifically states that in fact they are part of the EU. I do know they are not part of Schengen, but I'm confused about their actual status and would like to see some clarification. PPP ( talk) 20:50, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
69.201.166.50 ( talk) 17:35, 13 May 2016 (UTC)
A suggestion to place in brackets the main BES island associated with an Islet - and this is an easy one. E.g Kleine Bonaire (Bonaire) There appear to be many islets iin the BES islands it would be good to know to which of the 3 islands they pertain. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Browzman ( talk • contribs) 12:43, 2 October 2016 (UTC)
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 05:13, 15 November 2016 (UTC)
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