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Shall we try and stay neutral on this issue?
Text biased in favour of one particular view will just be changed by someonelse with an equally biased view. Then it all starts to become a bit childish. Lets just stick to facts. There's already a section on the page which discusses the identity issue. Best to keep that stuff there or it just clutters up the page. Theres no need to change all references to "Cardiff Blues" to just "Cardiff" or "Blues". No need to clutter the history section with stuff about the circumstances behind switiching from 9 clubs or the status of the Premiership side. It isn't directly relevant to the topic and there are other sections on wikipedia for that material.
The Blues were formed in 2003, not 1876 as some people keep changing it to. Cardiff RFC were formed in 1876. In 2003, due to the regionalisation of welsh rugby, Cardiff RFC spawned a new team, the Cardiff Blues, which would compete at the top level of club rugby, including the Heineken Cup, and would therefore carry on the history of Cardiff RFC in that respect. The Cardiff RFC club however remained and competed in the Welsh premiership. Before 2003 the Cardiff Blues did not exist, and therefore they were formed in 2003. The Cardiff Blues were not "rebranded" in 2003. They came into existence in 2003. If you really want to use the word rebranded, it would apply only to Cardiff RFC, however this would not make much sense as the RFC side still exist. Besides any of this, the infobox cannot display a formed in and rebranded in year, so to avoid confusion, just leave it as 2003. The history of the club is in the article anyway. Nouse4aname 07:34, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
Yes, they existed prior to 2003, playing in the same competitions and owned by the same company under a different branding. You can certainly argue that the branding is more significant than the reality, but once more, that would be to confuse your opinion with fact. Steve1978 ( talk) 00:49, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
They were operating two teams prior to 2003. Both under different brandings to the ones used post 2003. I'm not sure where "one of the teams must be new - quite obviously it is the blues" comes from - unless once again you feel justified in placing unsubtantiated opinion ahead of fact. You've assumed that they operated one team. You've assumed that it is "obvious" that Blues are a new team - why is it obvious? Steve1978 ( talk) 00:54, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
⬅ Cardiff and Llanelli both won franchises, in the other two cases new companies were formed. in 2003 we therefore get a common history for two entities not a new entity. One of those was rebranded, but this history is there. The franchise has responsibility for a region but not control, and (I don;t think) Ponty do not have the same relationship to Cardiff as exists between Swansea and Neath for example. Newport got very messy as I remember it so I not sure there. If you go back Cardiff were allowed to form a region by themselves and later expanded their territory with the demise of the Warriors. -- Snowded TALK 09:55, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
Why does a new branding equal a new team? Is that your opinion again? Steve1978 ( talk) 00:56, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
(ec) How many times do I have to say this. Cardiff RFC won the franchise, the Blues thus have a common history with the divisional side, neither can claim to exclude the other from that history and neither do. Llanelli is the same. Ospreys and Dragons, a new company is formed. This has got to stop -- Snowded TALK 00:59, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
I do not have an issue with the 2003 date being used next to "founded" as it reflects the foundation of the brand and there is information in the article pointing the reader in the direction of pre 2003 history. I have an issue with the message that follows the 2003 date in the info box: describing Cardiff Blues as an entirely new entity is simply incorrect, furthermore it contradicts what you have written in this discussion area. It is also unneccesarily aggressive and dictatorial in tone. This is why I change it. Steve1978 ( talk) 01:04, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
It seems clear that we will never agree on to what extent the Blues are new or old or a mixture thereof, and I really can't be bothered going around in circles, so I don't see the point in my continued involvement in this debate. Nouse4aname ( talk) 09:16, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
story repeated elsewhere:
The Blues were formed in 2003, not 1876 as some people keep changing it to. Cardiff RFC were formed in 1876. In 2003, due to the regionalisation of welsh rugby, Cardiff RFC spawned a new team, the Cardiff Blues, which would compete at the top level of club rugby, including the Heineken Cup, and would therefore carry on the history of Cardiff RFC in that respect. The Cardiff RFC club however remained and competed in the Welsh premiership. Before 2003 the Cardiff Blues did not exist, and therefore they were formed in 2003. The Cardiff Blues were not "rebranded" in 2003. They came into existence in 2003. If you really want to use the word rebranded, it would apply only to Cardiff RFC, however this would not make much sense as the RFC side still exist. Besides any of this, the infobox cannot display a formed in and rebranded in year, so to avoid confusion, just leave it as 2003. The history of the club is in the article anyway. Nouse4aname 07:34, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
Yes, they existed prior to 2003, playing in the same competitions and owned by the same company under a different branding. You can certainly argue that the branding is more significant than the reality, but once more, that would be to confuse your opinion with fact. Steve1978 ( talk) 00:49, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
They were operating two teams prior to 2003. Both under different brandings to the ones used post 2003. I'm not sure where "one of the teams must be new - quite obviously it is the blues" comes from - unless once again you feel justified in placing unsubtantiated opinion ahead of fact. You've assumed that they operated one team. You've assumed that it is "obvious" that Blues are a new team - why is it obvious? Steve1978 ( talk) 00:54, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
⬅ Cardiff and Llanelli both won franchises, in the other two cases new companies were formed. in 2003 we therefore get a common history for two entities not a new entity. One of those was rebranded, but this history is there. The franchise has responsibility for a region but not control, and (I don;t think) Ponty do not have the same relationship to Cardiff as exists between Swansea and Neath for example. Newport got very messy as I remember it so I not sure there. If you go back Cardiff were allowed to form a region by themselves and later expanded their territory with the demise of the Warriors. -- Snowded TALK 09:55, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
Why does a new branding equal a new team? Is that your opinion again? Steve1978 ( talk) 00:56, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
(ec) How many times do I have to say this. Cardiff RFC won the franchise, the Blues thus have a common history with the divisional side, neither can claim to exclude the other from that history and neither do. Llanelli is the same. Ospreys and Dragons, a new company is formed. This has got to stop -- Snowded TALK 00:59, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
I do not have an issue with the 2003 date being used next to "founded" as it reflects the foundation of the brand and there is information in the article pointing the reader in the direction of pre 2003 history. I have an issue with the message that follows the 2003 date in the info box: describing Cardiff Blues as an entirely new entity is simply incorrect, furthermore it contradicts what you have written in this discussion area. It is also unneccesarily aggressive and dictatorial in tone. This is why I change it. Steve1978 ( talk) 01:04, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
It seems clear that we will never agree on to what extent the Blues are new or old or a mixture thereof, and I really can't be bothered going around in circles, so I don't see the point in my continued involvement in this debate. Nouse4aname ( talk) 09:16, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
story repeated elsewhere:
Perhaps even more telling are statements from the Clubs own page "About the Blues":
Even the Blues do not count appearances for the RFC side before 2003 in a player's appearance record; see Martyn Williams, who played for the RFC side, then the Blues, yet his stats only go back as far as 2003/04. [1] Nouse4aname ( talk) 11:20, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
All the above citations are fine Nouse4aname, there is no question that the region was established in 2003 you are again, as you consistently have, ignored the question of the franchise allocation. Its not even clear if you disagree with it, or simply don't understand it. My edit (which you have reversed) was a sensible compromise. It stated 2003 but but the original foundation date in brackets with a note (which could easily have a citation).
I therefore propose that this solution 2003 (1876) with a citation noting the franchise issue is the best way forward. -- Snowded TALK 11:08, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
Is this section not going to have to be re-opened for debate?
As recently as today the club have tweeted that them and Cardiff RFC are one in the same.
https://twitter.com/Cardiff_Rugby/status/1390593555484356609
The club can be asked to provide a statement to state that they were formed pre 2003 if needs be. Will likely need to be a project to merge the two wikipedia articles for Cardiff RFC and this one.
Apologies not all that experienced with Wikipedia, only ever done small things like updating player appearances and minor stuff. Appreciate the reply, thank you. CardiffRugbyFan ( talk) 19:42, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
I recently changed the "Importance" parameter in Template:WikiProject Rugby union for this artical from High to Mid per my reading of the importance scale. I note that User:Snowded has changed it back. Not a problem, but I want to get clarity on what the Importance should be. I have asked a question at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Rugby union#Importance of Clubs and would welcome all input. Hamish59 ( talk) 11:43, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
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I feel like this section offers very little value. 20 international caps isn't a high bar, it also doesn't include players who are renound for playing for the club such as Paul Tito, Xavier Rush, Taufaʻao Filise. — Preceding unsigned comment added by CardiffRugbyFan ( talk • contribs) 18:26, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
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![]() | Cardiff Rugby received a peer review by Wikipedia editors, which is now archived. It may contain ideas you can use to improve this article. |
Shall we try and stay neutral on this issue?
Text biased in favour of one particular view will just be changed by someonelse with an equally biased view. Then it all starts to become a bit childish. Lets just stick to facts. There's already a section on the page which discusses the identity issue. Best to keep that stuff there or it just clutters up the page. Theres no need to change all references to "Cardiff Blues" to just "Cardiff" or "Blues". No need to clutter the history section with stuff about the circumstances behind switiching from 9 clubs or the status of the Premiership side. It isn't directly relevant to the topic and there are other sections on wikipedia for that material.
The Blues were formed in 2003, not 1876 as some people keep changing it to. Cardiff RFC were formed in 1876. In 2003, due to the regionalisation of welsh rugby, Cardiff RFC spawned a new team, the Cardiff Blues, which would compete at the top level of club rugby, including the Heineken Cup, and would therefore carry on the history of Cardiff RFC in that respect. The Cardiff RFC club however remained and competed in the Welsh premiership. Before 2003 the Cardiff Blues did not exist, and therefore they were formed in 2003. The Cardiff Blues were not "rebranded" in 2003. They came into existence in 2003. If you really want to use the word rebranded, it would apply only to Cardiff RFC, however this would not make much sense as the RFC side still exist. Besides any of this, the infobox cannot display a formed in and rebranded in year, so to avoid confusion, just leave it as 2003. The history of the club is in the article anyway. Nouse4aname 07:34, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
Yes, they existed prior to 2003, playing in the same competitions and owned by the same company under a different branding. You can certainly argue that the branding is more significant than the reality, but once more, that would be to confuse your opinion with fact. Steve1978 ( talk) 00:49, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
They were operating two teams prior to 2003. Both under different brandings to the ones used post 2003. I'm not sure where "one of the teams must be new - quite obviously it is the blues" comes from - unless once again you feel justified in placing unsubtantiated opinion ahead of fact. You've assumed that they operated one team. You've assumed that it is "obvious" that Blues are a new team - why is it obvious? Steve1978 ( talk) 00:54, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
⬅ Cardiff and Llanelli both won franchises, in the other two cases new companies were formed. in 2003 we therefore get a common history for two entities not a new entity. One of those was rebranded, but this history is there. The franchise has responsibility for a region but not control, and (I don;t think) Ponty do not have the same relationship to Cardiff as exists between Swansea and Neath for example. Newport got very messy as I remember it so I not sure there. If you go back Cardiff were allowed to form a region by themselves and later expanded their territory with the demise of the Warriors. -- Snowded TALK 09:55, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
Why does a new branding equal a new team? Is that your opinion again? Steve1978 ( talk) 00:56, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
(ec) How many times do I have to say this. Cardiff RFC won the franchise, the Blues thus have a common history with the divisional side, neither can claim to exclude the other from that history and neither do. Llanelli is the same. Ospreys and Dragons, a new company is formed. This has got to stop -- Snowded TALK 00:59, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
I do not have an issue with the 2003 date being used next to "founded" as it reflects the foundation of the brand and there is information in the article pointing the reader in the direction of pre 2003 history. I have an issue with the message that follows the 2003 date in the info box: describing Cardiff Blues as an entirely new entity is simply incorrect, furthermore it contradicts what you have written in this discussion area. It is also unneccesarily aggressive and dictatorial in tone. This is why I change it. Steve1978 ( talk) 01:04, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
It seems clear that we will never agree on to what extent the Blues are new or old or a mixture thereof, and I really can't be bothered going around in circles, so I don't see the point in my continued involvement in this debate. Nouse4aname ( talk) 09:16, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
story repeated elsewhere:
The Blues were formed in 2003, not 1876 as some people keep changing it to. Cardiff RFC were formed in 1876. In 2003, due to the regionalisation of welsh rugby, Cardiff RFC spawned a new team, the Cardiff Blues, which would compete at the top level of club rugby, including the Heineken Cup, and would therefore carry on the history of Cardiff RFC in that respect. The Cardiff RFC club however remained and competed in the Welsh premiership. Before 2003 the Cardiff Blues did not exist, and therefore they were formed in 2003. The Cardiff Blues were not "rebranded" in 2003. They came into existence in 2003. If you really want to use the word rebranded, it would apply only to Cardiff RFC, however this would not make much sense as the RFC side still exist. Besides any of this, the infobox cannot display a formed in and rebranded in year, so to avoid confusion, just leave it as 2003. The history of the club is in the article anyway. Nouse4aname 07:34, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
Yes, they existed prior to 2003, playing in the same competitions and owned by the same company under a different branding. You can certainly argue that the branding is more significant than the reality, but once more, that would be to confuse your opinion with fact. Steve1978 ( talk) 00:49, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
They were operating two teams prior to 2003. Both under different brandings to the ones used post 2003. I'm not sure where "one of the teams must be new - quite obviously it is the blues" comes from - unless once again you feel justified in placing unsubtantiated opinion ahead of fact. You've assumed that they operated one team. You've assumed that it is "obvious" that Blues are a new team - why is it obvious? Steve1978 ( talk) 00:54, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
⬅ Cardiff and Llanelli both won franchises, in the other two cases new companies were formed. in 2003 we therefore get a common history for two entities not a new entity. One of those was rebranded, but this history is there. The franchise has responsibility for a region but not control, and (I don;t think) Ponty do not have the same relationship to Cardiff as exists between Swansea and Neath for example. Newport got very messy as I remember it so I not sure there. If you go back Cardiff were allowed to form a region by themselves and later expanded their territory with the demise of the Warriors. -- Snowded TALK 09:55, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
Why does a new branding equal a new team? Is that your opinion again? Steve1978 ( talk) 00:56, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
(ec) How many times do I have to say this. Cardiff RFC won the franchise, the Blues thus have a common history with the divisional side, neither can claim to exclude the other from that history and neither do. Llanelli is the same. Ospreys and Dragons, a new company is formed. This has got to stop -- Snowded TALK 00:59, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
I do not have an issue with the 2003 date being used next to "founded" as it reflects the foundation of the brand and there is information in the article pointing the reader in the direction of pre 2003 history. I have an issue with the message that follows the 2003 date in the info box: describing Cardiff Blues as an entirely new entity is simply incorrect, furthermore it contradicts what you have written in this discussion area. It is also unneccesarily aggressive and dictatorial in tone. This is why I change it. Steve1978 ( talk) 01:04, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
It seems clear that we will never agree on to what extent the Blues are new or old or a mixture thereof, and I really can't be bothered going around in circles, so I don't see the point in my continued involvement in this debate. Nouse4aname ( talk) 09:16, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
story repeated elsewhere:
Perhaps even more telling are statements from the Clubs own page "About the Blues":
Even the Blues do not count appearances for the RFC side before 2003 in a player's appearance record; see Martyn Williams, who played for the RFC side, then the Blues, yet his stats only go back as far as 2003/04. [1] Nouse4aname ( talk) 11:20, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
All the above citations are fine Nouse4aname, there is no question that the region was established in 2003 you are again, as you consistently have, ignored the question of the franchise allocation. Its not even clear if you disagree with it, or simply don't understand it. My edit (which you have reversed) was a sensible compromise. It stated 2003 but but the original foundation date in brackets with a note (which could easily have a citation).
I therefore propose that this solution 2003 (1876) with a citation noting the franchise issue is the best way forward. -- Snowded TALK 11:08, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
Is this section not going to have to be re-opened for debate?
As recently as today the club have tweeted that them and Cardiff RFC are one in the same.
https://twitter.com/Cardiff_Rugby/status/1390593555484356609
The club can be asked to provide a statement to state that they were formed pre 2003 if needs be. Will likely need to be a project to merge the two wikipedia articles for Cardiff RFC and this one.
Apologies not all that experienced with Wikipedia, only ever done small things like updating player appearances and minor stuff. Appreciate the reply, thank you. CardiffRugbyFan ( talk) 19:42, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
I recently changed the "Importance" parameter in Template:WikiProject Rugby union for this artical from High to Mid per my reading of the importance scale. I note that User:Snowded has changed it back. Not a problem, but I want to get clarity on what the Importance should be. I have asked a question at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Rugby union#Importance of Clubs and would welcome all input. Hamish59 ( talk) 11:43, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
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I feel like this section offers very little value. 20 international caps isn't a high bar, it also doesn't include players who are renound for playing for the club such as Paul Tito, Xavier Rush, Taufaʻao Filise. — Preceding unsigned comment added by CardiffRugbyFan ( talk • contribs) 18:26, 7 May 2021 (UTC)