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I think I can settle this cream or no cream problem with regard to Spaghetti alla Carbonara. The Accademia Italiana della Cucina is the MOST respected authority on authentic Italian cuisine. Its recipe book never mentions the use of cream for this dish. Therefore: NO CREAM.
Feel free to verify this by visiting the Academy's website at accademiaitalianacucina.it (which I have included in the external links section of the article). You should know, however, the recipes are all written in Italian. Fortunately, my knowledge of Spanish, coupled with an Italian/English dictionary, allows me to accurately translate the recipes.
However, for the benefit of the lazy, I have pasted below the recipe as it appears in the recipe book in the original Italian with a translation afterwards:
Ingredienti
Preparazione
Cuocere gli spaghetti in abbondante acqua salata. Intanto tagliare il guanciale a listarelle, metterlo in una grande padella con poco olio e l’aglio schiacciato; soffriggere finché il guanciale sarà ben rosato. Togliere l’aglio. A parte sbattere le uova con un pizzico di sale e un poco di pecorino. Quando la pasta sarà cotta, scolarla e passarla nella padella col guanciale, abbassare al minimo il fuoco ed unire le uova sbattute. Mescolare per un minuto, poi togliere dal fuoco, condire con il rimanente pecorino, mescolare ancora e servire caldo.TRANSLATION
Ingredients:
Preparation
Cook the spaghetti in a large amount of salt water. Meanwhile, dice the guanciale and put it in a large skillet with a little oil and the crushed garlic. Fry the guanciale until it's red. Remove the garlic. On the side, beat the eggs with a pinch of salt and a little pecorino. When the pasta is cooked, drain it and put it in the skillet with the guanciale. Lower the flame to minimum and add the beaten eggs. Mix for one minute, take the skillet off the heat and add the remaining pecorino, continue mixing and serve hot.I think I've made my point.
LuisGomez111 21:10, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
Italic text==Recipe of the Academy of Italian cuisine== recipe from accademy of italian cousine is available online: http://www.accademiaitalianacucina.it/it/content/spaghetti-alla-carbonara-alluso-di-roma
no bacon but only guanciale
no parmigiano but only pecorino
here is the recipe in italian:
Ingredienti: 350 g di spaghetti, 120 g di guanciale, 1 spicchio d’aglio, 3 uova, 50 g di formaggio pecorino grattugiato, 1 cucchiaio di olio di oliva, pepe nero, sale
Preparazione: Tagliare il guanciale a listarelle alte ½ centimetro. Mettere il guanciale in una padella con l’olio di oliva, l’aglio schiacciato e farlo rosolare al punto giusto. Togliere l’aglio e la padella dal fuoco. In una terrina battere le uova con un pizzico di sale e il formaggio pecorino grattugiato. Portare a bollore abbondante acqua salata in una pentola capace, calare gli spaghetti e cuocerli al dente. Scolarli e versarli nella padella dove c’è il guanciale. Unire il composto di uova battute e formaggio pecorino grattugiato, mescolando bene gli ingredienti. Spolverare con il pepe nero macinato di fresco e servire. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.38.72.98 ( talk) 01:02, 26 June 2016 (UTC)
In the original Carbonara recipe there is no cream. Cream here is clearly a later addition. Carbonara originates from Latium (Rome and its region). In Rome, as in the whole central and southern Italy, the usage of cream in the pasta dishes is unknown. alex2006 05:46, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
Look Michael, here we talk about an italian dish (the beginning of the article says "Carbonara is a traditional Italian pasta sauce"), not an american one. Since we are talking about a traditional sauce, I would start with the traditional recipe. Then I would suggest that you revert your edit and write a paragraph or a sentence about "Carbonara in the English speaking world". What do you think about it? And, talking about standard books, if you need to know something about italian cooking, please read the work of Anna Gossetti Della Salda, which is THE book on the subject.
By the way, it is already the fourth time here on the english wikipedia that someone who is not italian is trying to explain to me - roman, with roman parents and grandparents - how the roman cooking should be... ;-) Ciao, alex2006 15:48, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
Maybe in rome they dont use cream but i use panna in carbonara. i have seen ITALIANS (me and my family) as well as all my ITALIAN flatmates in Bologna. i know people who do not use panna when they make carbonara... ma fa cagare. -Daniele —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.248.119.33 ( talk) 16:31, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
I find it quite disgusting that in this article ingredients that are completely extraneous to the original recipe such as garlic are mentioned on par with a building block of this sauce, namely pepper. (black, by the way!) Can we first describe the original recipe and then spend some time explaining any other bastardised variants? Thanks. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.67.217.254 ( talk) 00:10, 9 February 2007 (UTC).
Alex, is black pepper a standard ingredient according to Le Ricette regionali Italiane, or an optional one? — MJBurrage • TALK • 08:56, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Alex, please stop reverting. 83.67.217.254 19:16, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
We must have a neutral point of view, and the language in which this Wikipedia is written has absolutely nothing to do with it. Your reasoning is often cause of systemic bias in Wikipedia. 83.67.217.254 18:06, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
The modern cookbooks I have refer to the addition of cream as a no-no and very retro. Regardless of language, "English Carbonara" is like saying "Greek Champagne" :). Segat1 18:02, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
im italian and sorry for you but in 30 year of my live i never eat carbonara with cream here in italy non of the many restaurant that i visited do carbonara with cream non of the chef put cream or smoked bacon in it! so if in english or if all the restaurant in inglad cook carbonara with cream or bacon they shoul go back to college and lern how to cook! thanks : an italian food eater
(January 9/09) I agree that the original Italian recipe should go first. However, I just changed the heading for the variations to "International Variations of Carbonara." Before I changed it, it said "Westernized Carbonara recipes (Fusion Cuisine variations on carbonara)" which didn't make much sense. Italy is a western nation, so even the original is a "western" recipe. And "fusion" doesn't really apply either. It's not like adding cream or a bit of broccoli makes it "fuse" with some other well established tradition. Those are just variations that originated elsewhere. That's not the same as "fusion." —Preceding unsigned comment added by Blork-mtl ( talk • contribs) 16:12, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
Sometime late last century, Maestra Signora Costa, my High School Italian teacher, told us ("i miei studentimbini moltissim' carei") that the ingredients of "pasta carbonara" were what i carbonari could scrounge up to cook on their camp-fires in il Risorgimento, and hence the title... -- Shirt58 14:13, 25 February 2007 (UTC) (mmm: 'allievo/a/i/e'? Meh. Not in our manuale italiano.)
Whether or not this is the English language version of Wikipedia seems immaterial to me when describing a traditional Italian recipe. As Alex has properly reported the recipe includes no cream, nor has it ever. There is an English language version now available of 'The Silver Spoon' - the Italian cookery bible - and even though it's written in English the recipe for carbonara is still without cream. Perhaps all that is needed to clarify this issue is a distinction between the traditional recipe and the later (and foreign) evolutions of it.
Paolo Tullio
That's funny, because my Italian girlfriend always cooks carbonara with cream, because "the real recipe say no but I think a little cream is not bad". Ergo; there are people in Italy who use cream in the recipe. What exactly constitutes the "correct" recipe is entirely subjective and as long as there are people using cream in carbonara, it should remain on Wikipedia. 86.161.201.248 ( talk) 19:25, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
There are a few recipes which can safely be said to have "original" versions. These are mostly the ones that were invented at a precise time and place by a precise person or in a precise restaurant. Oh, yes, and where there is accurate contemporary documentation (no secret ingredients or techniques). There are not many recipes like this outside of haute cuisine. Caesar salad might qualify except that the recipe was only recorded years after it was created, so it is possible it had changed by then.
Most recipes are like folktales, which have many variants, some of which have become canonical because they were collected and published (e.g. by the Grimm brothers). But even there, there may be more than one "canonical" version (in, say, French and English or for that matter in two different editions of Grimm). And funnily enough, some folktales' "original" version turns out not to have been a folktale at all, but a literary creation which later become popular in a popular form.
Most recipes change over time, and change depending on the region, the cook, the cook's whims, the cook's budget, the eater's tastes, and what is available in the market. Some change radically. The oldest known version of profiterole, for example, seems to have been some sort of baked dumpling served in soup. The economics and technology of food changes over time, too. Vegetable oil as we know it (corn oil, rapeseed (canola) oil, etc. -- olive oil is in a different category...) has replaced animal fat (lard, sheep fat, and cooking butter) and sesame oil in many areas around the Mediterranean only in the past century, partly because technology has made it much cheaper, partly because more recently the animal fats have become considered unhealthy. Recipes change along with the economics. And with taste -- American recipes became far far sweeter between 1880 and 1960.
In most cases, the history of foods is poorly documented. Until one knows the detailed history, it is unsafe to make inferences like "cream is not a typical Roman ingredient, therefore carbonara cannot/should not/does not contain cream". Perhaps it was invented in some aristocratic household which loved French cuisine and always had cream on hand. Perhaps it actually originally comes from a region where cream is typical, but it has been forgotten in that region and become popular in Rome. There are also sorts of nice stories one can invent from 'common sense' about foods (e.g. that pesto alla genovese was invented to preserve basil for sea voyages) but for which there is no good evidence (ships' manifests are actually quite detailed about the foods they bring on board, and pesto isn't mentioned).
It is also unsafe to assume that just because something is well-known in a given region, and considered by the inhabitants of that region and promoted by the local tourist board as a traditional regional specialty, that it comes from a tradition lost in the mists of time. "Everyone knows" that baguettes are "traditionally Parisian", but they were invented in the late 19th century. In the case of carbonara, actually, all the sources seem to agree that it is not a "traditional" recipe, but a rather recent one, so why is anyone talking about "tradition" at all?
And the recipes passed down by our parents and grandparents are not necessarily any more "authentic" or "traditional" than any others. (Not to mention that they are original research and have no standing as reliable sources.) A few years ago, a Francophone Belgian radio station asked its readers to submit their favorite regional recipes from their family traditions, which were to be collected into a cookbook of authentic regional tradition. But many of the recipes turned out to be identical: copied verbatim from some long-ago magazine article or cookbook. (In the US, they may have been copied from the back of the cornflakes box, but let's not get into that....)
True, there are food academies and food writers who codify particular recipes, and chefs who make one version or another of a dish famous, but that does not make the codified versions more "authentic", more "original", or more "traditional".
Instead of trying to establish what the most "authentic", most "original", or most "traditional" version of various recipes is, let's try to follow Wikipedia's wise neutral point of view policy, which asks us to report on all reputable positions. If the Academy of Roman Gastronomy forbids the use of cream in carbonara, report it. If the oldest known recipe uses garlic (whether it is common nowadays or not), report it. If 5 out of 15 Italian cookbooks with good reputations use cream, report that cream is used by some Italian cooks, and shunned by others (especially if you can find the suitable horrified language). If most American versions use Wisconsin cheddar (I say "yuck!", but that is a Talk page comment...), report on it. And so on.
So let's just avoid the words "authentic", "original", "traditional", etc. and stick to reporting things that we can actually determine from good sources. -- Macrakis ( talk) 05:15, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
Yes, they are a major producer, and the quality of their pasta is good. However, I don't think their recipes are particularly interesting. After all, the recipe you cited involves a prepared "BARILLA Garden Vegetable Sauce". In the spirit of reporting reality as it is and not as we would like it to be, we could certainly mention packaged sauces (Knorr Carbonara, anyone?) as their own category if they are in wide use (the fact that Barilla is trying to flog their BARILLA Garden Vegetable Sauce doesn't prove that they are succeeding...). -- Macrakis ( talk) 14:49, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
References
Please let's revert the lead to 11th February 2008. From this edit, things went downhill. No Italian would ever use onion for this recipe, and I strongly doubt even garlic. I liked the earlier lead much better: original recipe first, then all the various bastardisations. 83.67.217.254 ( talk) 23:24, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
Sorry mate, you can't prove a negative. Rather, where's the evidence for onion? 170.148.198.156 ( talk) 13:05, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
I would argue that removing unreferenced ingredients does not affect the "validity" of other (referenced) ingredients.
As for garlic, I would also like to point out that there is an enormous difference between using a clove of garlic in oil for the meat and then remove it and chopping garlic finely and putting it in the "sauce" - mind you I agree with whoever said that it is fundamentally wrong to call carbonara a sauce. 170.148.198.156 ( talk) 17:28, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
What does this mean? Can we please qualify further or move it away from the opening paragraph, or both? Thanks. 210.131.167.98 ( talk) 08:26, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
User:Buspar has re-added a "related articles" section (normally called "see also") which lists Bolognese sauce; he justifies this re-addition with the comment "Bolognese is the other major type of spaghetti sauce, as mentioned in the spaghetti article, so it's relevant". Similarly, he has added Carbonara to the Bolognese article. There are innumerable recipes involving spaghetti, and linking from each of them to all the others isn't helpful. -- Macrakis ( talk) 19:09, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
FWIW, I agree with Macrakis. Link to pasta dishes only. Fettuccine alfredo is not even an Italian dish and linking it would be systemic bias. 222.148.6.28 ( talk) 12:43, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
İ agree too 100% with Macrakis. Anyway, Fettuccine Alfredo IS an italian (roman) dish, invented by Alfredo (Restaurant Alfredo alla Scrofa in Rome (see Carnacina-Buonassisi 'Roma in Cucina', sub Vocem) Alex2006 ( talk) 19:17, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
I like the "Category:Pasta dish" idea. However, I don't understand the main objection. The spaghetti article clearly states that there are two major types of sauce for it, so why shouldn't they at least mention each other? It's in keeping with the overall style of good Wiki articles. Buspar ( talk) 04:31, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
this dish was mentioned by the star gate in Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.161.58.200 ( talk) 13:53, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
I have reverted an anon's edit, which I don't understand - there seemed to be nothing broken about the link referred to. seglea ( talk) 00:05, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
To user:MJBurrage:
This recipe is known throughout Italy as spaghetti alla carbonara, not carbonara. Also, Italians don't use this sauce for other recipes. I verified this by looking at the website for La Accademia della Cucina Italiana listed in citations for this article. The fact that some people substitute other types of pasta doesn't change this fact. That would be the same as insisting that there shouldn't be a separate Wikipedia article for Hamburger simply because there are now cheeseburgers, chicken burgers and turkey burgers. Also, the Italian word carbonara alone means either "female charcoal maker" or "charcoal maker's wife" depending on the context of the sentence. This is an obviously nonsensical name for a recipe.
I tried to rename the article by moving it to Spaghetti alla Carbonara but you moved it back. This now makes it impossible to move the article back to that name because a reference for it already exists. I must now ask an administrator to delete the reference.
Why was it so important for you to keep the article named Carbonara? Moby-Dick3000 ( talk) 00:02, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
Hi all, as I wrote in the Italian talk, the Carbonara is simple another name for the receipt "Cacio (or cas) e ova", tipical for Rome, the southern Lazio and the northern Campania. Cacio e ova means cheese (pecorino), eggs, guanciale/pancetta/lardo/pieces of sausages. In other words: carbonara. Instead of speaking about Carbonari, soldiers, aliens, reptilians etc. why just not say that: "The Carbonara, also known as Cacio/cas e ova, it is a traditional receipt of Rome, southern Lazio and northern Campania". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.22.212.86 ( talk) 20:02, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
Why is there a citation needed? I just at this tonight here in St Petersburg and I'm sick as a dog, but there was cream. 81.222.254.114 ( talk) 19:05, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
Hallo, the name of the restaurant "La Carbonara" in Campo dei Fiori originates from the nickname of the first (female) owner, whose father was a charcoal worker. Please see "La cucina romana e del Lazio" by Livio Jannattoni, sub voce, as reference. Cheers, Alex2006 ( talk) 13:16, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
Hallo Enok,
I reverted again your edit about Carbonara. As I wrote in my previous revert, there is no original recept by Carbonara (as by 99% of all the other dishes), since this is not a recipe invented by some chef, where we can trace it back to the origin. We can register only different recipes cited by different sources. I am Roman, and would personally NEVER use cream in Carbonara, but among my sources, Luigi Carnacina, who was one of the most famous Roman chefs of the 20th century, uses it. Generally speaking, this means using WP:V and WP:RS, which are two pillars of Wikipedia. Bye Alex2006 ( talk) 07:36, 22 April 2012 (UTC) P.S. Please use English, since this is Wikipedia in English.
It is written erroniously in this article that spaghetti alla carbonara was created in mid-20th century, but it's wrong. The tradition to cook "guanciale" (roman bacon) is very old in Rome and uniting it with eggs, which were very used by the very flourishing jewish community in that city, was kind of natural choice since eggs and bacon were largely available throughout the middle-ages in Rome with shepherds often coming down in winter from Sabina, considering that Rome has direct contact with shepherd tradition rather than with seaborn product, it was not uncommon to see sheeps grazing in the very centre of Rome till 19th century( you won't find ONE traditional roman dish made with seafood) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.57.96.195 ( talk) 00:41, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
@ Pyrope: @ Amin:. Frankly i do not think that this image should be included as it simply does not show the original ingredients. It is not bacon cubes from the supermarket put in the sauce and also not Parmesan cheese (usually-rarely it can). The native Roman Italians (by whom this dish originates from) would claim it is basically only Guanciale and Pecorino Romano. So either one makes an image with these ingredients or nothing. Also Black pepper as here [1] is a main ingredient. Unless the original ingredients are not taken, and also portrayed in a somewhat nicely arranged manner in the photo (as here [2]) I would take this image which is in this article right now out. It is no gain but makes this article less good.-- Joobo ( talk) 09:12, 28 June 2017 (UTC)
Hallo, I removed the assertion that cacio e uova can be the ancient name of Carbonara. The two recipes are quite different: in cacio e uova there is no pork, cheese and eggs are mixed together at the beginning of the preparation and - above all - the mixture is cooked several minutes. Maybe carbonara represents an evolution of cacio e uova, but for sure is not the same dish. Against this thesis there is also the fact that cacio e uova is a dish originating from Abruzzo and Campania, and was never attested in Rome, while Carbonara is for sure a dish from Lazio. Finally, he assertion that "old romans" named carbonara cacio e uova is more that suspect: I never read it on any italian source (and never heard it from any old roman, included (OR) my grandma, "classe" 1900, who preparing the carbonara (with bacon!) in the early sixties told me "questa ce l'hanno portata l'americani" :-)): cacio e uova is definitely not a dish belonging to the roman tradition. Bye, Alex2006 ( talk) 06:24, 19 April 2019 (UTC)
P.S. I just read the whole article used as source: it is quite funny because the author - among tons of web sites and Betty Bossi (!) - cites as source wiki:it, but he confesses that he wasn't yet able to read the books written by Livio Jannattoni (among them: "Osterie e feste romane"; "La cucina romana e del lazio"), the most important historian of roman cooking of the last 60 years. I strongly doubt that this paper could withstand a peer review... Alex2006 ( talk) 15:16, 19 April 2019 (UTC)
Variations aren't admitted. It's changing completely the dish. Carbonara with mushrooms or peas isn't carbonara anymore. If in America, they think that cooking a carbonara with peas or mushrooms or whatever it is, is cooking a carbonara, they're wrong. Variations of a carbonara are: adding only yolks or entire eggs, choosing between pecorino romano and parmigiano reggiano, not adding mushrooms or peas. GiuRos03 ( talk) 10:43, 26 February 2020 (UTC)
Da un rapporto dell'Accademia italiana della cucina, la ricetta originale della pasta alla carbonara risulta la più "falsificata" tra tutte le ricette italiane all'estero[14]. Nelle principali varianti, soprattutto di cucina internazionale, si usa sostituire il pecorino con il Parmigiano, o anche utilizzarli entrambi.[2] In alcune varianti si usa la panna[1]. Il composto risulta più denso, e di conseguenza anche più pesante. Frequente anche l'aggiunta di cipolla, anche se la ricetta tradizionale non la comprende.[15]
This is a paragraph from the page Pasta alla Carbonara on Wikipedia in Italian. Translate it. Just because millions of people call in a wrong way a dish, it doesn't mean that they're right. Eg. If there are many people, who, since they haven't studied, are ignorant, make a grammatical mistake, that mistake becomes correct? GiuRos03 ( talk) 13:33, 26 February 2020 (UTC)
I appreciate removal from infobox, but I'd like to tell you all something: imagine you have a pizza Margherita (tomato sauce, mozzarella, basil): if you add mushrooms, it becomes a Capricciosa; if you remove mozzarella and you add oregano it becomes a Marinara. You can do whatever you want with a dish, but if you change it radically, it isn't that same dish anymore. Then, about the "Italian taste": we don't speak of taste, we speak of TRADITION. Italian cuisine is tradition and it can't be limited to a cookbook. And this means that we can rely on the grandmas of all Italian people, because they carry on tradition. And it doesn't matter if Jamie Oliver writes on his book that Carbonara is made with mushrooms, onions or peas, he's wrong because he's British and he does not know what a Carbonara is. I'm Italian and I'm from Rome, I know what a Carbonara is, like 60 millions of Italians do. I'm proud that our cuisine is appreciated all over the world and I don't discuss with you that you can't cook whatever you want, adding all the ingredients you want and changing the recipes in all the ways you desire, but a Carbonara with peas is not Carbonara, tradition says it. You CAN cook it, I'm not saying absolutely that you can't, but don't call it carbonara because where it is born, in Italy, there are rules that we follow to cook it. No Italian person needs a cookbook to know how a Carbonara is made, we know it thanks to tradition :-). Thank you all for the interesting discussion! Cheers! GiuRos03 ( talk) 21:34, 26 February 2020 (UTC)
This article makes me cringe – as do the discussions here. There is one recipe for carbonara: Guanciale (no pancetta, no bacon, no ham), egg yolk (no whole eggs ever), Pecorino Romano (no parmesan or any other cheese), black pepper and pasta (preferably Spaghetti or big tubes like rigatoni). Anything else is not carbonara. So: no cream, no garlic, nothing else. Since this is the English Wikipedia, it should not reference to what some people in the US believe a carbonara is. The English Wikipedia is the only true international version of Wikipedia and thus should be free from national bias, culture or opinion. So for the sake of truth and respect, start with the original recipe and then add a section with international interpretations of the dish. Zitaneco ( talk) 02:37, 11 April 2020 (UTC)
Oh Carbonara, don't care of people all over the world who have cooked twice in their life and they kill you with these words. Poor you, poor Carbonara... Non ti curare di loro ma guarda e passa. (Divina Commedia, XXVI canto, Dante Alighieri). GiuRos03 ( talk) 13:41, 24 April 2020 (UTC)
Carbonara's creation has nothing to do with the american soil. I understand that one of the hypothesis is that americans contributed to its creation but even then it was in Italy. So please show respect and don't mention the US in Place of origin. Spaghetti with meatballs is american because it was invented in the US, let pasta alla carbonara to Italy because it was invented in Italy please. 148.66.102.101 ( talk) 02:34, 17 June 2023 (UTC)
It means that not only had carbonara already landed in the United States, but by 1952 it was already being served to customers in at least one restaurant in Chicago. How it got there is impossible to know, perhaps an American returned home after a stay in our country (presumably as a result of the military operations of World War II) or an Italian transplanted to the United States.
how do u say it 174.88.15.129 ( talk) 22:22, 8 September 2023 (UTC)
There is a description in the article which in effect says "Simple, just use some other meat instead of pork".
But cheese is one of the essential ingredients in carbonara. Isn't meat (any kind) a problem when there is cheese? TooManyFingers ( talk) 22:03, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
Regarding this (in my opinion gravely biased, and therefore 100% unreliable) newspaper article (I'm referring to the article, the newspaper is authoritative), I quote here a user's reply within this post:
https://www.linkedin.com/posts/financial-times_everything-i-an-italian-thought-i-knew-activity-7045303339403608064-HB23; "The professor is just a sensationalist who made up a catchy title for his podcast just to publish on an international paper. He’s vastly (and rightfully) ignored in Italy.
Of course the modern versions of Italian traditional food are “only” 70 years old, but the basis of the recipes date centuries ago and the evolution is a direct consequence of 1) progress 2) wealth and aboundance 3) growing affordability of sophisticated food by the masses.
Let me give you an example: green olives from Ascoli Piceno are famous from the Roman times (as we can tell from mentions from Cato, Marziale and many other classic Roman writers). Around 1600 people started stuffing them with herbs (onions, carrots, leek…cheap stuffing). Around 1800 the stuffing started including mixed meat (pork, beef, veal and some cheese and nutmeg): the leftovers from rich families’ banquets.
In 1875 the production bacame industrial (Mariano Mazzocchi production, who also started the first marketing of the product).
Around the late 1950s, with the progressive growth in wealth of Italy, the recipe started making its way into households and morphed even further, including parmisan.
Nowadays you can find them fish stuffed or even a full vegan version."
JacktheBrown (
talk)
23:20, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
I think the subsection on Halal or kosher versions is irrelevant and unnecessary to the the main article. Frankserafini87 ( talk) 21:40, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
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I think I can settle this cream or no cream problem with regard to Spaghetti alla Carbonara. The Accademia Italiana della Cucina is the MOST respected authority on authentic Italian cuisine. Its recipe book never mentions the use of cream for this dish. Therefore: NO CREAM.
Feel free to verify this by visiting the Academy's website at accademiaitalianacucina.it (which I have included in the external links section of the article). You should know, however, the recipes are all written in Italian. Fortunately, my knowledge of Spanish, coupled with an Italian/English dictionary, allows me to accurately translate the recipes.
However, for the benefit of the lazy, I have pasted below the recipe as it appears in the recipe book in the original Italian with a translation afterwards:
Ingredienti
Preparazione
Cuocere gli spaghetti in abbondante acqua salata. Intanto tagliare il guanciale a listarelle, metterlo in una grande padella con poco olio e l’aglio schiacciato; soffriggere finché il guanciale sarà ben rosato. Togliere l’aglio. A parte sbattere le uova con un pizzico di sale e un poco di pecorino. Quando la pasta sarà cotta, scolarla e passarla nella padella col guanciale, abbassare al minimo il fuoco ed unire le uova sbattute. Mescolare per un minuto, poi togliere dal fuoco, condire con il rimanente pecorino, mescolare ancora e servire caldo.TRANSLATION
Ingredients:
Preparation
Cook the spaghetti in a large amount of salt water. Meanwhile, dice the guanciale and put it in a large skillet with a little oil and the crushed garlic. Fry the guanciale until it's red. Remove the garlic. On the side, beat the eggs with a pinch of salt and a little pecorino. When the pasta is cooked, drain it and put it in the skillet with the guanciale. Lower the flame to minimum and add the beaten eggs. Mix for one minute, take the skillet off the heat and add the remaining pecorino, continue mixing and serve hot.I think I've made my point.
LuisGomez111 21:10, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
Italic text==Recipe of the Academy of Italian cuisine== recipe from accademy of italian cousine is available online: http://www.accademiaitalianacucina.it/it/content/spaghetti-alla-carbonara-alluso-di-roma
no bacon but only guanciale
no parmigiano but only pecorino
here is the recipe in italian:
Ingredienti: 350 g di spaghetti, 120 g di guanciale, 1 spicchio d’aglio, 3 uova, 50 g di formaggio pecorino grattugiato, 1 cucchiaio di olio di oliva, pepe nero, sale
Preparazione: Tagliare il guanciale a listarelle alte ½ centimetro. Mettere il guanciale in una padella con l’olio di oliva, l’aglio schiacciato e farlo rosolare al punto giusto. Togliere l’aglio e la padella dal fuoco. In una terrina battere le uova con un pizzico di sale e il formaggio pecorino grattugiato. Portare a bollore abbondante acqua salata in una pentola capace, calare gli spaghetti e cuocerli al dente. Scolarli e versarli nella padella dove c’è il guanciale. Unire il composto di uova battute e formaggio pecorino grattugiato, mescolando bene gli ingredienti. Spolverare con il pepe nero macinato di fresco e servire. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.38.72.98 ( talk) 01:02, 26 June 2016 (UTC)
In the original Carbonara recipe there is no cream. Cream here is clearly a later addition. Carbonara originates from Latium (Rome and its region). In Rome, as in the whole central and southern Italy, the usage of cream in the pasta dishes is unknown. alex2006 05:46, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
Look Michael, here we talk about an italian dish (the beginning of the article says "Carbonara is a traditional Italian pasta sauce"), not an american one. Since we are talking about a traditional sauce, I would start with the traditional recipe. Then I would suggest that you revert your edit and write a paragraph or a sentence about "Carbonara in the English speaking world". What do you think about it? And, talking about standard books, if you need to know something about italian cooking, please read the work of Anna Gossetti Della Salda, which is THE book on the subject.
By the way, it is already the fourth time here on the english wikipedia that someone who is not italian is trying to explain to me - roman, with roman parents and grandparents - how the roman cooking should be... ;-) Ciao, alex2006 15:48, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
Maybe in rome they dont use cream but i use panna in carbonara. i have seen ITALIANS (me and my family) as well as all my ITALIAN flatmates in Bologna. i know people who do not use panna when they make carbonara... ma fa cagare. -Daniele —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.248.119.33 ( talk) 16:31, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
I find it quite disgusting that in this article ingredients that are completely extraneous to the original recipe such as garlic are mentioned on par with a building block of this sauce, namely pepper. (black, by the way!) Can we first describe the original recipe and then spend some time explaining any other bastardised variants? Thanks. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.67.217.254 ( talk) 00:10, 9 February 2007 (UTC).
Alex, is black pepper a standard ingredient according to Le Ricette regionali Italiane, or an optional one? — MJBurrage • TALK • 08:56, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Alex, please stop reverting. 83.67.217.254 19:16, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
We must have a neutral point of view, and the language in which this Wikipedia is written has absolutely nothing to do with it. Your reasoning is often cause of systemic bias in Wikipedia. 83.67.217.254 18:06, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
The modern cookbooks I have refer to the addition of cream as a no-no and very retro. Regardless of language, "English Carbonara" is like saying "Greek Champagne" :). Segat1 18:02, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
im italian and sorry for you but in 30 year of my live i never eat carbonara with cream here in italy non of the many restaurant that i visited do carbonara with cream non of the chef put cream or smoked bacon in it! so if in english or if all the restaurant in inglad cook carbonara with cream or bacon they shoul go back to college and lern how to cook! thanks : an italian food eater
(January 9/09) I agree that the original Italian recipe should go first. However, I just changed the heading for the variations to "International Variations of Carbonara." Before I changed it, it said "Westernized Carbonara recipes (Fusion Cuisine variations on carbonara)" which didn't make much sense. Italy is a western nation, so even the original is a "western" recipe. And "fusion" doesn't really apply either. It's not like adding cream or a bit of broccoli makes it "fuse" with some other well established tradition. Those are just variations that originated elsewhere. That's not the same as "fusion." —Preceding unsigned comment added by Blork-mtl ( talk • contribs) 16:12, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
Sometime late last century, Maestra Signora Costa, my High School Italian teacher, told us ("i miei studentimbini moltissim' carei") that the ingredients of "pasta carbonara" were what i carbonari could scrounge up to cook on their camp-fires in il Risorgimento, and hence the title... -- Shirt58 14:13, 25 February 2007 (UTC) (mmm: 'allievo/a/i/e'? Meh. Not in our manuale italiano.)
Whether or not this is the English language version of Wikipedia seems immaterial to me when describing a traditional Italian recipe. As Alex has properly reported the recipe includes no cream, nor has it ever. There is an English language version now available of 'The Silver Spoon' - the Italian cookery bible - and even though it's written in English the recipe for carbonara is still without cream. Perhaps all that is needed to clarify this issue is a distinction between the traditional recipe and the later (and foreign) evolutions of it.
Paolo Tullio
That's funny, because my Italian girlfriend always cooks carbonara with cream, because "the real recipe say no but I think a little cream is not bad". Ergo; there are people in Italy who use cream in the recipe. What exactly constitutes the "correct" recipe is entirely subjective and as long as there are people using cream in carbonara, it should remain on Wikipedia. 86.161.201.248 ( talk) 19:25, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
There are a few recipes which can safely be said to have "original" versions. These are mostly the ones that were invented at a precise time and place by a precise person or in a precise restaurant. Oh, yes, and where there is accurate contemporary documentation (no secret ingredients or techniques). There are not many recipes like this outside of haute cuisine. Caesar salad might qualify except that the recipe was only recorded years after it was created, so it is possible it had changed by then.
Most recipes are like folktales, which have many variants, some of which have become canonical because they were collected and published (e.g. by the Grimm brothers). But even there, there may be more than one "canonical" version (in, say, French and English or for that matter in two different editions of Grimm). And funnily enough, some folktales' "original" version turns out not to have been a folktale at all, but a literary creation which later become popular in a popular form.
Most recipes change over time, and change depending on the region, the cook, the cook's whims, the cook's budget, the eater's tastes, and what is available in the market. Some change radically. The oldest known version of profiterole, for example, seems to have been some sort of baked dumpling served in soup. The economics and technology of food changes over time, too. Vegetable oil as we know it (corn oil, rapeseed (canola) oil, etc. -- olive oil is in a different category...) has replaced animal fat (lard, sheep fat, and cooking butter) and sesame oil in many areas around the Mediterranean only in the past century, partly because technology has made it much cheaper, partly because more recently the animal fats have become considered unhealthy. Recipes change along with the economics. And with taste -- American recipes became far far sweeter between 1880 and 1960.
In most cases, the history of foods is poorly documented. Until one knows the detailed history, it is unsafe to make inferences like "cream is not a typical Roman ingredient, therefore carbonara cannot/should not/does not contain cream". Perhaps it was invented in some aristocratic household which loved French cuisine and always had cream on hand. Perhaps it actually originally comes from a region where cream is typical, but it has been forgotten in that region and become popular in Rome. There are also sorts of nice stories one can invent from 'common sense' about foods (e.g. that pesto alla genovese was invented to preserve basil for sea voyages) but for which there is no good evidence (ships' manifests are actually quite detailed about the foods they bring on board, and pesto isn't mentioned).
It is also unsafe to assume that just because something is well-known in a given region, and considered by the inhabitants of that region and promoted by the local tourist board as a traditional regional specialty, that it comes from a tradition lost in the mists of time. "Everyone knows" that baguettes are "traditionally Parisian", but they were invented in the late 19th century. In the case of carbonara, actually, all the sources seem to agree that it is not a "traditional" recipe, but a rather recent one, so why is anyone talking about "tradition" at all?
And the recipes passed down by our parents and grandparents are not necessarily any more "authentic" or "traditional" than any others. (Not to mention that they are original research and have no standing as reliable sources.) A few years ago, a Francophone Belgian radio station asked its readers to submit their favorite regional recipes from their family traditions, which were to be collected into a cookbook of authentic regional tradition. But many of the recipes turned out to be identical: copied verbatim from some long-ago magazine article or cookbook. (In the US, they may have been copied from the back of the cornflakes box, but let's not get into that....)
True, there are food academies and food writers who codify particular recipes, and chefs who make one version or another of a dish famous, but that does not make the codified versions more "authentic", more "original", or more "traditional".
Instead of trying to establish what the most "authentic", most "original", or most "traditional" version of various recipes is, let's try to follow Wikipedia's wise neutral point of view policy, which asks us to report on all reputable positions. If the Academy of Roman Gastronomy forbids the use of cream in carbonara, report it. If the oldest known recipe uses garlic (whether it is common nowadays or not), report it. If 5 out of 15 Italian cookbooks with good reputations use cream, report that cream is used by some Italian cooks, and shunned by others (especially if you can find the suitable horrified language). If most American versions use Wisconsin cheddar (I say "yuck!", but that is a Talk page comment...), report on it. And so on.
So let's just avoid the words "authentic", "original", "traditional", etc. and stick to reporting things that we can actually determine from good sources. -- Macrakis ( talk) 05:15, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
Yes, they are a major producer, and the quality of their pasta is good. However, I don't think their recipes are particularly interesting. After all, the recipe you cited involves a prepared "BARILLA Garden Vegetable Sauce". In the spirit of reporting reality as it is and not as we would like it to be, we could certainly mention packaged sauces (Knorr Carbonara, anyone?) as their own category if they are in wide use (the fact that Barilla is trying to flog their BARILLA Garden Vegetable Sauce doesn't prove that they are succeeding...). -- Macrakis ( talk) 14:49, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
References
Please let's revert the lead to 11th February 2008. From this edit, things went downhill. No Italian would ever use onion for this recipe, and I strongly doubt even garlic. I liked the earlier lead much better: original recipe first, then all the various bastardisations. 83.67.217.254 ( talk) 23:24, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
Sorry mate, you can't prove a negative. Rather, where's the evidence for onion? 170.148.198.156 ( talk) 13:05, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
I would argue that removing unreferenced ingredients does not affect the "validity" of other (referenced) ingredients.
As for garlic, I would also like to point out that there is an enormous difference between using a clove of garlic in oil for the meat and then remove it and chopping garlic finely and putting it in the "sauce" - mind you I agree with whoever said that it is fundamentally wrong to call carbonara a sauce. 170.148.198.156 ( talk) 17:28, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
What does this mean? Can we please qualify further or move it away from the opening paragraph, or both? Thanks. 210.131.167.98 ( talk) 08:26, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
User:Buspar has re-added a "related articles" section (normally called "see also") which lists Bolognese sauce; he justifies this re-addition with the comment "Bolognese is the other major type of spaghetti sauce, as mentioned in the spaghetti article, so it's relevant". Similarly, he has added Carbonara to the Bolognese article. There are innumerable recipes involving spaghetti, and linking from each of them to all the others isn't helpful. -- Macrakis ( talk) 19:09, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
FWIW, I agree with Macrakis. Link to pasta dishes only. Fettuccine alfredo is not even an Italian dish and linking it would be systemic bias. 222.148.6.28 ( talk) 12:43, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
İ agree too 100% with Macrakis. Anyway, Fettuccine Alfredo IS an italian (roman) dish, invented by Alfredo (Restaurant Alfredo alla Scrofa in Rome (see Carnacina-Buonassisi 'Roma in Cucina', sub Vocem) Alex2006 ( talk) 19:17, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
I like the "Category:Pasta dish" idea. However, I don't understand the main objection. The spaghetti article clearly states that there are two major types of sauce for it, so why shouldn't they at least mention each other? It's in keeping with the overall style of good Wiki articles. Buspar ( talk) 04:31, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
this dish was mentioned by the star gate in Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.161.58.200 ( talk) 13:53, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
I have reverted an anon's edit, which I don't understand - there seemed to be nothing broken about the link referred to. seglea ( talk) 00:05, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
To user:MJBurrage:
This recipe is known throughout Italy as spaghetti alla carbonara, not carbonara. Also, Italians don't use this sauce for other recipes. I verified this by looking at the website for La Accademia della Cucina Italiana listed in citations for this article. The fact that some people substitute other types of pasta doesn't change this fact. That would be the same as insisting that there shouldn't be a separate Wikipedia article for Hamburger simply because there are now cheeseburgers, chicken burgers and turkey burgers. Also, the Italian word carbonara alone means either "female charcoal maker" or "charcoal maker's wife" depending on the context of the sentence. This is an obviously nonsensical name for a recipe.
I tried to rename the article by moving it to Spaghetti alla Carbonara but you moved it back. This now makes it impossible to move the article back to that name because a reference for it already exists. I must now ask an administrator to delete the reference.
Why was it so important for you to keep the article named Carbonara? Moby-Dick3000 ( talk) 00:02, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
Hi all, as I wrote in the Italian talk, the Carbonara is simple another name for the receipt "Cacio (or cas) e ova", tipical for Rome, the southern Lazio and the northern Campania. Cacio e ova means cheese (pecorino), eggs, guanciale/pancetta/lardo/pieces of sausages. In other words: carbonara. Instead of speaking about Carbonari, soldiers, aliens, reptilians etc. why just not say that: "The Carbonara, also known as Cacio/cas e ova, it is a traditional receipt of Rome, southern Lazio and northern Campania". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.22.212.86 ( talk) 20:02, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
Why is there a citation needed? I just at this tonight here in St Petersburg and I'm sick as a dog, but there was cream. 81.222.254.114 ( talk) 19:05, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
Hallo, the name of the restaurant "La Carbonara" in Campo dei Fiori originates from the nickname of the first (female) owner, whose father was a charcoal worker. Please see "La cucina romana e del Lazio" by Livio Jannattoni, sub voce, as reference. Cheers, Alex2006 ( talk) 13:16, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
Hallo Enok,
I reverted again your edit about Carbonara. As I wrote in my previous revert, there is no original recept by Carbonara (as by 99% of all the other dishes), since this is not a recipe invented by some chef, where we can trace it back to the origin. We can register only different recipes cited by different sources. I am Roman, and would personally NEVER use cream in Carbonara, but among my sources, Luigi Carnacina, who was one of the most famous Roman chefs of the 20th century, uses it. Generally speaking, this means using WP:V and WP:RS, which are two pillars of Wikipedia. Bye Alex2006 ( talk) 07:36, 22 April 2012 (UTC) P.S. Please use English, since this is Wikipedia in English.
It is written erroniously in this article that spaghetti alla carbonara was created in mid-20th century, but it's wrong. The tradition to cook "guanciale" (roman bacon) is very old in Rome and uniting it with eggs, which were very used by the very flourishing jewish community in that city, was kind of natural choice since eggs and bacon were largely available throughout the middle-ages in Rome with shepherds often coming down in winter from Sabina, considering that Rome has direct contact with shepherd tradition rather than with seaborn product, it was not uncommon to see sheeps grazing in the very centre of Rome till 19th century( you won't find ONE traditional roman dish made with seafood) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.57.96.195 ( talk) 00:41, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
@ Pyrope: @ Amin:. Frankly i do not think that this image should be included as it simply does not show the original ingredients. It is not bacon cubes from the supermarket put in the sauce and also not Parmesan cheese (usually-rarely it can). The native Roman Italians (by whom this dish originates from) would claim it is basically only Guanciale and Pecorino Romano. So either one makes an image with these ingredients or nothing. Also Black pepper as here [1] is a main ingredient. Unless the original ingredients are not taken, and also portrayed in a somewhat nicely arranged manner in the photo (as here [2]) I would take this image which is in this article right now out. It is no gain but makes this article less good.-- Joobo ( talk) 09:12, 28 June 2017 (UTC)
Hallo, I removed the assertion that cacio e uova can be the ancient name of Carbonara. The two recipes are quite different: in cacio e uova there is no pork, cheese and eggs are mixed together at the beginning of the preparation and - above all - the mixture is cooked several minutes. Maybe carbonara represents an evolution of cacio e uova, but for sure is not the same dish. Against this thesis there is also the fact that cacio e uova is a dish originating from Abruzzo and Campania, and was never attested in Rome, while Carbonara is for sure a dish from Lazio. Finally, he assertion that "old romans" named carbonara cacio e uova is more that suspect: I never read it on any italian source (and never heard it from any old roman, included (OR) my grandma, "classe" 1900, who preparing the carbonara (with bacon!) in the early sixties told me "questa ce l'hanno portata l'americani" :-)): cacio e uova is definitely not a dish belonging to the roman tradition. Bye, Alex2006 ( talk) 06:24, 19 April 2019 (UTC)
P.S. I just read the whole article used as source: it is quite funny because the author - among tons of web sites and Betty Bossi (!) - cites as source wiki:it, but he confesses that he wasn't yet able to read the books written by Livio Jannattoni (among them: "Osterie e feste romane"; "La cucina romana e del lazio"), the most important historian of roman cooking of the last 60 years. I strongly doubt that this paper could withstand a peer review... Alex2006 ( talk) 15:16, 19 April 2019 (UTC)
Variations aren't admitted. It's changing completely the dish. Carbonara with mushrooms or peas isn't carbonara anymore. If in America, they think that cooking a carbonara with peas or mushrooms or whatever it is, is cooking a carbonara, they're wrong. Variations of a carbonara are: adding only yolks or entire eggs, choosing between pecorino romano and parmigiano reggiano, not adding mushrooms or peas. GiuRos03 ( talk) 10:43, 26 February 2020 (UTC)
Da un rapporto dell'Accademia italiana della cucina, la ricetta originale della pasta alla carbonara risulta la più "falsificata" tra tutte le ricette italiane all'estero[14]. Nelle principali varianti, soprattutto di cucina internazionale, si usa sostituire il pecorino con il Parmigiano, o anche utilizzarli entrambi.[2] In alcune varianti si usa la panna[1]. Il composto risulta più denso, e di conseguenza anche più pesante. Frequente anche l'aggiunta di cipolla, anche se la ricetta tradizionale non la comprende.[15]
This is a paragraph from the page Pasta alla Carbonara on Wikipedia in Italian. Translate it. Just because millions of people call in a wrong way a dish, it doesn't mean that they're right. Eg. If there are many people, who, since they haven't studied, are ignorant, make a grammatical mistake, that mistake becomes correct? GiuRos03 ( talk) 13:33, 26 February 2020 (UTC)
I appreciate removal from infobox, but I'd like to tell you all something: imagine you have a pizza Margherita (tomato sauce, mozzarella, basil): if you add mushrooms, it becomes a Capricciosa; if you remove mozzarella and you add oregano it becomes a Marinara. You can do whatever you want with a dish, but if you change it radically, it isn't that same dish anymore. Then, about the "Italian taste": we don't speak of taste, we speak of TRADITION. Italian cuisine is tradition and it can't be limited to a cookbook. And this means that we can rely on the grandmas of all Italian people, because they carry on tradition. And it doesn't matter if Jamie Oliver writes on his book that Carbonara is made with mushrooms, onions or peas, he's wrong because he's British and he does not know what a Carbonara is. I'm Italian and I'm from Rome, I know what a Carbonara is, like 60 millions of Italians do. I'm proud that our cuisine is appreciated all over the world and I don't discuss with you that you can't cook whatever you want, adding all the ingredients you want and changing the recipes in all the ways you desire, but a Carbonara with peas is not Carbonara, tradition says it. You CAN cook it, I'm not saying absolutely that you can't, but don't call it carbonara because where it is born, in Italy, there are rules that we follow to cook it. No Italian person needs a cookbook to know how a Carbonara is made, we know it thanks to tradition :-). Thank you all for the interesting discussion! Cheers! GiuRos03 ( talk) 21:34, 26 February 2020 (UTC)
This article makes me cringe – as do the discussions here. There is one recipe for carbonara: Guanciale (no pancetta, no bacon, no ham), egg yolk (no whole eggs ever), Pecorino Romano (no parmesan or any other cheese), black pepper and pasta (preferably Spaghetti or big tubes like rigatoni). Anything else is not carbonara. So: no cream, no garlic, nothing else. Since this is the English Wikipedia, it should not reference to what some people in the US believe a carbonara is. The English Wikipedia is the only true international version of Wikipedia and thus should be free from national bias, culture or opinion. So for the sake of truth and respect, start with the original recipe and then add a section with international interpretations of the dish. Zitaneco ( talk) 02:37, 11 April 2020 (UTC)
Oh Carbonara, don't care of people all over the world who have cooked twice in their life and they kill you with these words. Poor you, poor Carbonara... Non ti curare di loro ma guarda e passa. (Divina Commedia, XXVI canto, Dante Alighieri). GiuRos03 ( talk) 13:41, 24 April 2020 (UTC)
Carbonara's creation has nothing to do with the american soil. I understand that one of the hypothesis is that americans contributed to its creation but even then it was in Italy. So please show respect and don't mention the US in Place of origin. Spaghetti with meatballs is american because it was invented in the US, let pasta alla carbonara to Italy because it was invented in Italy please. 148.66.102.101 ( talk) 02:34, 17 June 2023 (UTC)
It means that not only had carbonara already landed in the United States, but by 1952 it was already being served to customers in at least one restaurant in Chicago. How it got there is impossible to know, perhaps an American returned home after a stay in our country (presumably as a result of the military operations of World War II) or an Italian transplanted to the United States.
how do u say it 174.88.15.129 ( talk) 22:22, 8 September 2023 (UTC)
There is a description in the article which in effect says "Simple, just use some other meat instead of pork".
But cheese is one of the essential ingredients in carbonara. Isn't meat (any kind) a problem when there is cheese? TooManyFingers ( talk) 22:03, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
Regarding this (in my opinion gravely biased, and therefore 100% unreliable) newspaper article (I'm referring to the article, the newspaper is authoritative), I quote here a user's reply within this post:
https://www.linkedin.com/posts/financial-times_everything-i-an-italian-thought-i-knew-activity-7045303339403608064-HB23; "The professor is just a sensationalist who made up a catchy title for his podcast just to publish on an international paper. He’s vastly (and rightfully) ignored in Italy.
Of course the modern versions of Italian traditional food are “only” 70 years old, but the basis of the recipes date centuries ago and the evolution is a direct consequence of 1) progress 2) wealth and aboundance 3) growing affordability of sophisticated food by the masses.
Let me give you an example: green olives from Ascoli Piceno are famous from the Roman times (as we can tell from mentions from Cato, Marziale and many other classic Roman writers). Around 1600 people started stuffing them with herbs (onions, carrots, leek…cheap stuffing). Around 1800 the stuffing started including mixed meat (pork, beef, veal and some cheese and nutmeg): the leftovers from rich families’ banquets.
In 1875 the production bacame industrial (Mariano Mazzocchi production, who also started the first marketing of the product).
Around the late 1950s, with the progressive growth in wealth of Italy, the recipe started making its way into households and morphed even further, including parmisan.
Nowadays you can find them fish stuffed or even a full vegan version."
JacktheBrown (
talk)
23:20, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
I think the subsection on Halal or kosher versions is irrelevant and unnecessary to the the main article. Frankserafini87 ( talk) 21:40, 14 July 2024 (UTC)