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Is it possible to take the data from Wei (state) and put it here??
Quibus 11:25, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Wei (state) is from the Warring States Period, that's different from Three Kingdoms. Hanfresco 10:19, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
As I review over the Wei state so many times, I see the one thing that I believe that could've have made it the more than just the strongest among the other kingdom. Cao Cao made the kingdom of Wei into a state of overwhelming man power, having more generals than Wu (maybe not), yet it seem that he would, to me, try to use chaos to his advantage or try to use surprising troops from the least place to expect. Overall, the kingdom of Wei had the man power, the perfect number of generals to command the troops yet at some points, they did not have the strategy to combat the likes of Zhuge Liang (till Sima Yi came to Wei's need) or of Lu Xun (Lu Meng's successor). I do though have much respect for Cao Cao and the use of chaos to his advantage; he displays this talent when he fought against Yuan Shao at the Battle of Guan Du.(Indeed, chaos can be a powerful ally.)
Nevertheless, Wei had all the resources needed, but it did not have the strategy to combat the best of Shu or Wu. -- Zhang Liao 16:03, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
Zhang He, Yue Jin, Zhang Liao, Xu Huang, and Yu Jin. Out of all the generals that were in Wei, only these five men showed more skill(Maybe not) and more feats when war was upon them.
1.) Zhang Liao repel the Wu army at Hefei with only 800 troops and aid from only two officers.(Li Dian and Yue Jin)
2.) Zhang He assist Sima Yi in the assault from the South led by Zhuge Liang and scored a tremendous win at Jieting.
3.) Xu Haung displays his skill not only by maintaining order within Cao Cao's army but also by remaining on state duty weather he was in battle or not.
4.) Yue Jin was noteable for his amazing service to Wei from the time of Yuan Shao and after Cao Cao suffers the defeat at Chi Bi.(Known as the Red Cliffs)
5.) Yu Jin gains his own way into the high ranking from his efforts in the Yellow Turban battle. Upon the rise of Cao Cao, Yu Jin assist the Duke of Wei in his battle at Guandu and soon was promote.
If Anyone has any more interesting intel about the Top 5 Wei generals then, please add on.-- Zhang Liao 22:10, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
personally i think Xuahou Dun was the strongest general, but whatever...Also Xiahou Yuan and Li Dian were very good aswell.-- Teniii (UTC)
There is much debate about Xiahou Dun's ability. I'm on the supporting side of Xiahou Dun having skill. He was a renowned Vangaurd general along with Xu Huang. Both were on about the same level, except by coincidence, the books seems to allow Xiahou Dun to get ambushed more often. Zhang He was considered a discraced officer for a large majority of the time. He regains some honor in the latter end with his victories with Sima Yi, but he remains a supporting general and little more. Li Dian was a flank general, or a supporter. He did little more than that. He hardly his the 'famed' level. -Patricoo
I agree that xiahoa dun should be in the top 5, I also think that dian wei, cao cao, cao pi and guan yu [who was a genral] should be in the top 5. I think this because dian wei defended cao cao during a invation, cao cao lead the wei army for a long time, cao pi defended guandu well and guan yu ashured victery agenst yuan shou by killing two of his best genrals.-marknjp —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.23.231.23 ( talk) 23:21, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
I think that Dian wei is one of the top genrals saving cao cao's life many times. Second genral is Guan Yu. I know he only assisted Cao Cao for his Yuan Shao campain but because of him Cao Cao didn't have to deal with Yan Liang or Wen Cho. Third genral is zhang Lio who helped at He Fei. Forth is Xhaho Dun because he faught a long way with his cousin from the begining he assisted Cao Cao in many battles. Finaly is sima yi who used many stratigys to take out the army of Shu at the Wu zhang plans. -Marknjp —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.202.100.208 ( talk) 19:43, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
The Kingdom of Wei is not chiefly known as Cao Wei. That's Chinese nomenclature. Although I'm fluent in Chinese and believe in adding Chinese nomenclature parenthetically whereever it helps clarify, this should only be done in accordance with established Wiki style. This is the English Wiki, not the Chinese Wiki. Established English names go first, followed by the Chinese and Pinyin in parentheses at the beginning of main pages. The page title of Cao Wei is therefore inappropriate. I am renaming it 'Wei Kingdom'. Dragonbones 03:28, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
Is protection of this page really necessary? About time to request an un-protect? Hanfresco 10:30, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
How many "important" people do you think should be listed for a state that lasted 45 years? -- Nlu ( talk) 05:15, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
I don't think you're having a grasp of true importance. You removed regents and empresses and replaced them with people who had very little impact on Cao Wei's history. Further, if somehow you think Wen Qin was more important to Eastern Wu than to Cao Wei, you havve a rather strange definition of importance. -- Nlu ( talk) 19:24, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
I don't mind, afterall you have been here a lot longer than I have. I was just trying to help out, and I didn't even realize i added Wen Qin to Wu, must have been a mistake, so sorry for the hassel and I suppose i will leave the pages the way the are now, however I'm surprised you feel Yue Jin was not important. Also I personally think most empresses aren't important since they usually had no diplomatic, military, or political power, they just gave birth to some important people. Hardworker111 19:34, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
Oh, i looked back and understand what your saying, I didn't add Wen Qin to Wu I added Jiang Qin to Wu. Jiang Qin, if u don't know, was Zhou Tai's pirate partner who joined Wu the same time, etc. I think you may have gotten confused, not sure. Hardworker111 19:41, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
RfC has been filed. Here are some of my views on what the criteria of inclusion should be, for all three articles ( Cao Wei, Eastern Wu, and Shu Han):
The reason is that these are encyclopedia articles, and people who may be signifiant in the public consciousness due to Romance of the Three Kingdoms and related works but are in actually non-important, or vice versa, are/can be more than adequately dealt with in their respective articles, rather than letting their inclusion continue to obfuscate on true importance. Based on the Romance of Three Kingdoms, you would not thiink that Sun Jun was important; in reality, he had already become important late in Sun Quan's reign, and later on became all-powerful after he overthrew Zhuge Ke. This is an encyclopedia, not a work of literary analysis. If there is a list of "important individuals aboard the RMS Titanic, including Sun Shangxiang in the list of important individuals for Eastern Wu is the equivalent of including Rose Bukater in that list. -- Nlu ( talk) 19:45, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
The reasons why I also think that empresses should be included, ontrary to Hardworker111's view above that they're not sufficiently important, is that they actually wielded substantial powers -- at least when their husbands had substantial powers and were not purely puppets. Their power inside the palaces over imperial servants, both male and female -- of which there are substantial numbers -- are near absolute, and they had fairly high powers over even the emperors' concubines. Further, many of them had substantial influence over the politics. Empress Guo (Ming), for example, was titular regent over three emperors' reign and made several (futile) to restore the power of the Cao Wei emperors. Empress Pan (Da) was indicated by histories to be highly influential late in Sun Quan's reign. Empress Zhu (Jing) was part of the decision process that led to the disasterous seletion of Sun Hao as emperor. Their importance isn't diminished simply because they're not individuals coming to the forefront of public consciousness when thinking of the Three Kingdoms. Including Zhang Bao (Shu Han), for example, while excluding his sisters Empress Zhang (Liu Shan, former) and Empress Zhang (Liu Shan, later), in particular, makes no sense in my opinion. Zhang Bao's authorities and impact on Shu Han's governance were minimal, while his sisters, while not much is recorded about them, had actual powers. (It may be the case that all three should be excluded; but if one has to go, Zhang Bao should go since he did not even have actual authority to exercise, whereas they did.) -- Nlu ( talk) 19:45, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
I like this! Everybody who made some important impact to the Cao Wei kingdom is here. Cool listing to the Han Era Crew and the Three Kingdoms Crew. I also noticed the other two (Eastern Wu & Shu Han) Also done like that or similiar. Well there is no more reason for me to add on to the three kingdoms chars or places. Nice work!-- Zhang Liao 05:53, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
I do not understand why the Chinese would be so hell bent on trying to prove Korea was dominated by China. Especially when it was not quite this in the ancient times, Wei had its eastern coastal provinces taken by foreigners who ruled the Downriver HwangHe for 400 years, so says a Chinese official today! Also, Kogureyeo is smack bang in the area in the northern korean peninsula where Wei has its territory drawn into it. If that was the case, why does the Great wall end near Beijing and not into the Korean Peninsula? The Great wall is made to prevent Northerners from invading.
I even witnessed old Chinese men saying the Wei territories were not drawn like this in Chinese historical textbooks only 20 years ago.
How is Wei part of todays Vietnam? I would add Mongolia, but certainly not Vietnam. I guess somebody confused it with Wu here. ( EnTerbury ( talk) 21:59, 8 January 2014 (UTC))
An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Former Wei. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. signed, Rosguill talk 19:37, 14 March 2020 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Cao Wei article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Is it possible to take the data from Wei (state) and put it here??
Quibus 11:25, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Wei (state) is from the Warring States Period, that's different from Three Kingdoms. Hanfresco 10:19, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
As I review over the Wei state so many times, I see the one thing that I believe that could've have made it the more than just the strongest among the other kingdom. Cao Cao made the kingdom of Wei into a state of overwhelming man power, having more generals than Wu (maybe not), yet it seem that he would, to me, try to use chaos to his advantage or try to use surprising troops from the least place to expect. Overall, the kingdom of Wei had the man power, the perfect number of generals to command the troops yet at some points, they did not have the strategy to combat the likes of Zhuge Liang (till Sima Yi came to Wei's need) or of Lu Xun (Lu Meng's successor). I do though have much respect for Cao Cao and the use of chaos to his advantage; he displays this talent when he fought against Yuan Shao at the Battle of Guan Du.(Indeed, chaos can be a powerful ally.)
Nevertheless, Wei had all the resources needed, but it did not have the strategy to combat the best of Shu or Wu. -- Zhang Liao 16:03, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
Zhang He, Yue Jin, Zhang Liao, Xu Huang, and Yu Jin. Out of all the generals that were in Wei, only these five men showed more skill(Maybe not) and more feats when war was upon them.
1.) Zhang Liao repel the Wu army at Hefei with only 800 troops and aid from only two officers.(Li Dian and Yue Jin)
2.) Zhang He assist Sima Yi in the assault from the South led by Zhuge Liang and scored a tremendous win at Jieting.
3.) Xu Haung displays his skill not only by maintaining order within Cao Cao's army but also by remaining on state duty weather he was in battle or not.
4.) Yue Jin was noteable for his amazing service to Wei from the time of Yuan Shao and after Cao Cao suffers the defeat at Chi Bi.(Known as the Red Cliffs)
5.) Yu Jin gains his own way into the high ranking from his efforts in the Yellow Turban battle. Upon the rise of Cao Cao, Yu Jin assist the Duke of Wei in his battle at Guandu and soon was promote.
If Anyone has any more interesting intel about the Top 5 Wei generals then, please add on.-- Zhang Liao 22:10, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
personally i think Xuahou Dun was the strongest general, but whatever...Also Xiahou Yuan and Li Dian were very good aswell.-- Teniii (UTC)
There is much debate about Xiahou Dun's ability. I'm on the supporting side of Xiahou Dun having skill. He was a renowned Vangaurd general along with Xu Huang. Both were on about the same level, except by coincidence, the books seems to allow Xiahou Dun to get ambushed more often. Zhang He was considered a discraced officer for a large majority of the time. He regains some honor in the latter end with his victories with Sima Yi, but he remains a supporting general and little more. Li Dian was a flank general, or a supporter. He did little more than that. He hardly his the 'famed' level. -Patricoo
I agree that xiahoa dun should be in the top 5, I also think that dian wei, cao cao, cao pi and guan yu [who was a genral] should be in the top 5. I think this because dian wei defended cao cao during a invation, cao cao lead the wei army for a long time, cao pi defended guandu well and guan yu ashured victery agenst yuan shou by killing two of his best genrals.-marknjp —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.23.231.23 ( talk) 23:21, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
I think that Dian wei is one of the top genrals saving cao cao's life many times. Second genral is Guan Yu. I know he only assisted Cao Cao for his Yuan Shao campain but because of him Cao Cao didn't have to deal with Yan Liang or Wen Cho. Third genral is zhang Lio who helped at He Fei. Forth is Xhaho Dun because he faught a long way with his cousin from the begining he assisted Cao Cao in many battles. Finaly is sima yi who used many stratigys to take out the army of Shu at the Wu zhang plans. -Marknjp —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.202.100.208 ( talk) 19:43, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
The Kingdom of Wei is not chiefly known as Cao Wei. That's Chinese nomenclature. Although I'm fluent in Chinese and believe in adding Chinese nomenclature parenthetically whereever it helps clarify, this should only be done in accordance with established Wiki style. This is the English Wiki, not the Chinese Wiki. Established English names go first, followed by the Chinese and Pinyin in parentheses at the beginning of main pages. The page title of Cao Wei is therefore inappropriate. I am renaming it 'Wei Kingdom'. Dragonbones 03:28, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
Is protection of this page really necessary? About time to request an un-protect? Hanfresco 10:30, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
How many "important" people do you think should be listed for a state that lasted 45 years? -- Nlu ( talk) 05:15, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
I don't think you're having a grasp of true importance. You removed regents and empresses and replaced them with people who had very little impact on Cao Wei's history. Further, if somehow you think Wen Qin was more important to Eastern Wu than to Cao Wei, you havve a rather strange definition of importance. -- Nlu ( talk) 19:24, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
I don't mind, afterall you have been here a lot longer than I have. I was just trying to help out, and I didn't even realize i added Wen Qin to Wu, must have been a mistake, so sorry for the hassel and I suppose i will leave the pages the way the are now, however I'm surprised you feel Yue Jin was not important. Also I personally think most empresses aren't important since they usually had no diplomatic, military, or political power, they just gave birth to some important people. Hardworker111 19:34, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
Oh, i looked back and understand what your saying, I didn't add Wen Qin to Wu I added Jiang Qin to Wu. Jiang Qin, if u don't know, was Zhou Tai's pirate partner who joined Wu the same time, etc. I think you may have gotten confused, not sure. Hardworker111 19:41, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
RfC has been filed. Here are some of my views on what the criteria of inclusion should be, for all three articles ( Cao Wei, Eastern Wu, and Shu Han):
The reason is that these are encyclopedia articles, and people who may be signifiant in the public consciousness due to Romance of the Three Kingdoms and related works but are in actually non-important, or vice versa, are/can be more than adequately dealt with in their respective articles, rather than letting their inclusion continue to obfuscate on true importance. Based on the Romance of Three Kingdoms, you would not thiink that Sun Jun was important; in reality, he had already become important late in Sun Quan's reign, and later on became all-powerful after he overthrew Zhuge Ke. This is an encyclopedia, not a work of literary analysis. If there is a list of "important individuals aboard the RMS Titanic, including Sun Shangxiang in the list of important individuals for Eastern Wu is the equivalent of including Rose Bukater in that list. -- Nlu ( talk) 19:45, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
The reasons why I also think that empresses should be included, ontrary to Hardworker111's view above that they're not sufficiently important, is that they actually wielded substantial powers -- at least when their husbands had substantial powers and were not purely puppets. Their power inside the palaces over imperial servants, both male and female -- of which there are substantial numbers -- are near absolute, and they had fairly high powers over even the emperors' concubines. Further, many of them had substantial influence over the politics. Empress Guo (Ming), for example, was titular regent over three emperors' reign and made several (futile) to restore the power of the Cao Wei emperors. Empress Pan (Da) was indicated by histories to be highly influential late in Sun Quan's reign. Empress Zhu (Jing) was part of the decision process that led to the disasterous seletion of Sun Hao as emperor. Their importance isn't diminished simply because they're not individuals coming to the forefront of public consciousness when thinking of the Three Kingdoms. Including Zhang Bao (Shu Han), for example, while excluding his sisters Empress Zhang (Liu Shan, former) and Empress Zhang (Liu Shan, later), in particular, makes no sense in my opinion. Zhang Bao's authorities and impact on Shu Han's governance were minimal, while his sisters, while not much is recorded about them, had actual powers. (It may be the case that all three should be excluded; but if one has to go, Zhang Bao should go since he did not even have actual authority to exercise, whereas they did.) -- Nlu ( talk) 19:45, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
I like this! Everybody who made some important impact to the Cao Wei kingdom is here. Cool listing to the Han Era Crew and the Three Kingdoms Crew. I also noticed the other two (Eastern Wu & Shu Han) Also done like that or similiar. Well there is no more reason for me to add on to the three kingdoms chars or places. Nice work!-- Zhang Liao 05:53, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
I do not understand why the Chinese would be so hell bent on trying to prove Korea was dominated by China. Especially when it was not quite this in the ancient times, Wei had its eastern coastal provinces taken by foreigners who ruled the Downriver HwangHe for 400 years, so says a Chinese official today! Also, Kogureyeo is smack bang in the area in the northern korean peninsula where Wei has its territory drawn into it. If that was the case, why does the Great wall end near Beijing and not into the Korean Peninsula? The Great wall is made to prevent Northerners from invading.
I even witnessed old Chinese men saying the Wei territories were not drawn like this in Chinese historical textbooks only 20 years ago.
How is Wei part of todays Vietnam? I would add Mongolia, but certainly not Vietnam. I guess somebody confused it with Wu here. ( EnTerbury ( talk) 21:59, 8 January 2014 (UTC))
An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Former Wei. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. signed, Rosguill talk 19:37, 14 March 2020 (UTC)