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I think an incident outside Surinam in the book should be added. I've already tried twice but it was rejected as "unconstruc-tive", whatever that means. Basically, Candide and Cacamba are walking along when they find a slave by the side of the road who's lost a hand and leg, apparently in labor. He's been left there to die, it seems, and complains the Church teaches that everyone descends from Adam, and "you must admit no one could treat their relative more horribly." They held him to Surinam before splitting up. This is a very important part of the book, as it shows a view on slavery and racism practically unheard of at the time. Does someone want to add this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by M carteron ( talk • contribs) 07:54, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
The introduction (i.e. the first three paragraphs of the article) is a bit long. This section should be a very short and basic synopsis. Most of the material here can be moved into the body. I can do it myself unless someone else wants to. Ekwos ( talk) 08:00, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
The lead should be able to stand alone as a concise overview of the article. It should establish context, explain why the subject is interesting or notable, and summarize the most important points...
I have two points of contention with the article.
1)At the end of the "Style" section, the following sentence: "Some view the portrayal of the Jewish merchant in Lisbon as anti-semitic; however, in Constantinople at the end, Jewish bankers alone will deal honestly with the foreign characters," does not appear to be supported by the text. In a translation of Candide by Lowell Bair, there is no reference whatsoever to Candide having been dealt honestly with by Jews, and in fact, the following passage appears on page 117 out of 120, in explanation of why Candide cannot live well despite his once great wealth: "But he had been so cheated by the Jews that he had nothing left but his little farm." If anything, Candide may not be considered antisemitic because Voltaire does not pick on Jews any more than any other ethnicity or nationality or creed throughout the book. If he must be considered antisemitic, it is only fair to consider him anti-everything else that he lampoons. But the text does not specifically support the statement given in this section.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.80.122.94 ( talk • contribs)
2) In the Conclusion, and echoed in the Introduction, is the notion that the garden statement at the end of the book is enigmatic. It wasn't enigmatic to me or to Voltaire scholar Andre Maurois when he implies that the statement, "We must cultivate our garden" is a direct analogy to looking after those things in our life that are in our domain. What are the other views on this statement? The article isn't clear, except to source the fact that some scholars consider it a contentious conclusion, which would could simply be inferred if instead the alternative interpretations were given.-- 68.80.122.94 ( talk) 22:23, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
While there is no doubt the incident was inspired by the execution of Admiral Byng, does Voltaire actually use the name? And I don't believe Byng was actually shot in the skull-- Voltaire takes some license here. Kablammo ( talk) 01:13, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
I am so astounded. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.164.152.10 ( talk) 03:37, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
One question, one suggestion.
Although it's been a long time since I studied Voltaire, I'm wondering whether in French literary history the work of Rabelais shouldn't be considered a precursor. As I said, long time since I studied it. But both Candide and Gargantua and Pantagruel are long episodic prose narratives written in a satiric vein within the same language tradition.
Also, it seems a major omission in the elucidation of the Garden not to at least mention Epicureanism. The meaning of the Garden in Epicurean philosophy is one of the main reasons the sentence is so wonderfully irreducible and produces so many points to ponder when you try to unpack it. The Enlightenment saw a major revival of the Epicurean philosophical tradition (Thomas Jefferson famously took an interest). Just a few examples from a superficial Google Books search: "Voltaire … thought of himself as an Epicurean" (Peter Gay, The Enlightenment); "Voltaire was probably drawn to the word jardin because it would remind readers of both the Garden of Eden and the garden of the ancient philosopher Epicurus" (David Wootton, Candide and Related Texts). It's pretty much a commonplace to view the ending of Candide in light of Epicureanism, as here; Martha Nussbaum also takes it as a given here; John Gray says that Voltaire ultimately failed to be an Epicurean, with the implication that his attempt is necessary to constructing what he ultimately meant to say with the jardin; Simone de Beauvoir alludes to the Epicureanism of Candide's garden in her essay Pyrrhus and Cineas. Cynwolfe ( talk) 16:58, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
Yeah, sorry. I mentioned this article in a discussion of plot summary length, and he now thinks that, even though the plot summary has extensive discussion of everything, he can carry out his campaign against articles on fiction discussing that fiction here. There's no policy or guideline whatsoever behind his tag, and it may and should be removed on sight. Shoemaker's Holiday Over 210 FCs served 01:57, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
To be honest, the plot summary in this article seems excessive. To nitpick just one point, why mention the dervish at all? It seems very important to the article that the entirety of the plot be described. This seems excessive. Should not the article only touch on plot points of relevence to the story, and as such, only include plot points necessary to the broad story arc or that are discussed further in the article? Hipocrite ( talk) 17:31, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
It may be details can safely be trimmed, but to remove Cunegonde's death followed by her being descovered to have survived (possibly one of the most quoted bits of the book, in my experience), to remove Pangloss' creation of optimistic interpretations, such as the one at Jacques' death, and so on serve to make the plot summary misleading. It's probably possible to do a more concise plot summary, but removing the key scenes that set up Voltaire's themes of suffering and the foolishness of optimism in an unjust, cruel world isn't the way. If anything, I'd add a tiny bit: (translation: [3]
"is it you? Is it Miss Cunegund I behold, and alive? Do I find you again in Portugal? then you have not been ravished? they did not rip open your body, as the philosopher Pangloss informed me?"
"Indeed but they did," replied Miss Cunegund; "but these two accidents do not always prove mortal."
Likewise, Hipocrite's suggestion that the dervish is not mentioned is patently ridiculous to anyone who's read the book - this is the key turning point of the novel.
Many of the instances that could be cut are made uncuttable through discussion of Voltaire's references. For instance, the paragraph
“ | This companion, Martin, discusses Pangloss's philosophy with Candide and reveals that he himself is a Manichean scholar from Amsterdam. The character of Martin is based on the real-life pessimist Pierre Bayle, who is a chief opponent of Leibniz.[54] For the remainder of the voyage, Martin and Candide argue about philosophy, Candide still being an optimist at heart since it is all he knows. Approaching an English port they witness the execution of a British naval officer on the charge of not killing enough of the enemy (Admiral John Byng was shot on such a charge). Horrified, Candide refuses to even set foot on British soil. | ” |
Could be cut - if it weren't for the fact that it contains two examples of the fairly constant references made throughout the book. Perhaps it should be anyway, but it shouldn't be without discussion.
In the end, Candide is as much an essay on philosophy as a novel. Cutting out all the philosophy, as is being proposed here, just does not provide an effective summary of the work.
That said, there are several points where the setup for later scenes is created, but the payoff ever arrives. We shouldn't, for example, bother mentioning the red sheep if the parody of doctors and vets - (roughly: The scientists can't decide how the sheep could have red wool, there's debates, and then, finally, the professors arbitrarily declare that the red colour of their wool could only come from blood staining it, and thus the sheep clearly had scabies, and by all rights should be very sick) - if you're not going to mention that, why bring up the sheep at all? Shoemaker's Holiday Over 210 FCs served 18:23, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
Shoemaker's Holiday Over 210 FCs served 18:17, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
I'm monumentally busy but I wanted to say "thanks, great job," with the edits to the plot so far. I think there may be more to do, but I'm certain we can get it worked out. I'm glad this didn't devolve into nastyness. Hipocrite ( talk) 21:25, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
I'm going to cut some of the French - do we need to know the French descriptions for the brutish sailor who permanently disappears in the next scene, for instance? Does the fact that the old woman is described in the book by the French word for old woman add anything? And so on. I'll put it into ref tags for now, feel free to delete it outright. Shoemaker's Holiday Over 210 FCs served 22:08, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
I've removed the origins of Candide and Pangloss' names.
I just don't see any good place to put them that doesn't cause them to appear little more than trivia. Shoemaker's Holiday Over 210 FCs served 22:22, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
Right. Oh, I also removed Cacambo's derivation from Caca. Probably should include that too. Shoemaker's Holiday Over 210 FCs served 23:57, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
Should there be a list of a few references to Candide in popular culture, as for example in the TV programme "Sharpe's sword"?
Even beyond "references," I can't believe there's nothing about "Forrest Gump" in the Derivative Works section. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.67.131.215 ( talk) 17:24, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
Hi,
I have re-activated the link to the Tailored Texts edition of 'Candide' in the original French. The edition contains over 2000+ human-made annotations made specifically for English speakers reading the original (many of whom will be using this Wikipedia page).
It is a unique resource in that it allows interactive annotations (i.e. any registered users can annotate the text and discuss them, not just the webmaster) and that the interface has been specifically designed for people reading foreign-language literature.
I have talked to EdBever about this.
86.160.39.159 ( talk) 14:41, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
"A number of historical events inspired Voltaire to write Candide, most notably the publication of Leibniz's "Monadology", a long logical treatise that concludes "Therefore this is the best of all possible worlds", the Seven Years' War, and the 1755 Lisbon earthquake. Both of the latter catastrophes are frequently referred to in Candide and are cited by scholars as reasons for its composition.[10] The 1755 Lisbon earthquake, tsunami, and resulting fires of All Saints' Day, had a strong influence on theologians of the day and on Voltaire, who was himself disillusioned by them. The earthquake had an especially large effect on the contemporary doctrine of optimism, a philosophical system which implies that such events should not occur. Optimism is founded on the theodicy of Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz that says all is for the best because God is a benevolent deity."
The Monadology is actually very brief, only 90 paragraphs. Many modern editions are long because about 90% of the text is commentary added by others. Also, it is a stretch to say that Leibniz thought God was a "benevolent deity." His God is perfect, so His creations are perfect. Thus, the idea that this is the best of all worlds follows logically, but it has nothing to do with God's kindness or warm feelings for humanity. The old Noslin ( talk) 15:39, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
At least I was reminded of Candide when I saw it. Am I alone in perceiving some parallels? knoodelhed ( talk) 17:30, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
In the opening paragraph it is stated that Candide lives in an "Edenic paradise". I thought the irony was that, given Candide's shelteredness, what Voltaire considered a dismal part of Germany was considered the "best castle in the best province in the best of all possible worlds". BigGoyForYou ( talk) 07:04, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
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Is it a novel or a novella? Both terms are being used inconsistently throughout the article. -- Pemilligan ( talk) 01:38, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
This is taken from chapter 23 of the French wikisource: "mais dans ce pays-ci il est bon de tuer de temps en temps un amiral pour encourager les autres." PatGallacher ( talk) 22:28, 22 May 2021 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 01:23, 27 September 2021 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Candide article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1, 2 |
![]() | Candide is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
![]() | This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on August 23, 2009. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() Updated 2011-05-09
|
I think an incident outside Surinam in the book should be added. I've already tried twice but it was rejected as "unconstruc-tive", whatever that means. Basically, Candide and Cacamba are walking along when they find a slave by the side of the road who's lost a hand and leg, apparently in labor. He's been left there to die, it seems, and complains the Church teaches that everyone descends from Adam, and "you must admit no one could treat their relative more horribly." They held him to Surinam before splitting up. This is a very important part of the book, as it shows a view on slavery and racism practically unheard of at the time. Does someone want to add this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by M carteron ( talk • contribs) 07:54, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
The introduction (i.e. the first three paragraphs of the article) is a bit long. This section should be a very short and basic synopsis. Most of the material here can be moved into the body. I can do it myself unless someone else wants to. Ekwos ( talk) 08:00, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
The lead should be able to stand alone as a concise overview of the article. It should establish context, explain why the subject is interesting or notable, and summarize the most important points...
I have two points of contention with the article.
1)At the end of the "Style" section, the following sentence: "Some view the portrayal of the Jewish merchant in Lisbon as anti-semitic; however, in Constantinople at the end, Jewish bankers alone will deal honestly with the foreign characters," does not appear to be supported by the text. In a translation of Candide by Lowell Bair, there is no reference whatsoever to Candide having been dealt honestly with by Jews, and in fact, the following passage appears on page 117 out of 120, in explanation of why Candide cannot live well despite his once great wealth: "But he had been so cheated by the Jews that he had nothing left but his little farm." If anything, Candide may not be considered antisemitic because Voltaire does not pick on Jews any more than any other ethnicity or nationality or creed throughout the book. If he must be considered antisemitic, it is only fair to consider him anti-everything else that he lampoons. But the text does not specifically support the statement given in this section.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.80.122.94 ( talk • contribs)
2) In the Conclusion, and echoed in the Introduction, is the notion that the garden statement at the end of the book is enigmatic. It wasn't enigmatic to me or to Voltaire scholar Andre Maurois when he implies that the statement, "We must cultivate our garden" is a direct analogy to looking after those things in our life that are in our domain. What are the other views on this statement? The article isn't clear, except to source the fact that some scholars consider it a contentious conclusion, which would could simply be inferred if instead the alternative interpretations were given.-- 68.80.122.94 ( talk) 22:23, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
While there is no doubt the incident was inspired by the execution of Admiral Byng, does Voltaire actually use the name? And I don't believe Byng was actually shot in the skull-- Voltaire takes some license here. Kablammo ( talk) 01:13, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
I am so astounded. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.164.152.10 ( talk) 03:37, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
One question, one suggestion.
Although it's been a long time since I studied Voltaire, I'm wondering whether in French literary history the work of Rabelais shouldn't be considered a precursor. As I said, long time since I studied it. But both Candide and Gargantua and Pantagruel are long episodic prose narratives written in a satiric vein within the same language tradition.
Also, it seems a major omission in the elucidation of the Garden not to at least mention Epicureanism. The meaning of the Garden in Epicurean philosophy is one of the main reasons the sentence is so wonderfully irreducible and produces so many points to ponder when you try to unpack it. The Enlightenment saw a major revival of the Epicurean philosophical tradition (Thomas Jefferson famously took an interest). Just a few examples from a superficial Google Books search: "Voltaire … thought of himself as an Epicurean" (Peter Gay, The Enlightenment); "Voltaire was probably drawn to the word jardin because it would remind readers of both the Garden of Eden and the garden of the ancient philosopher Epicurus" (David Wootton, Candide and Related Texts). It's pretty much a commonplace to view the ending of Candide in light of Epicureanism, as here; Martha Nussbaum also takes it as a given here; John Gray says that Voltaire ultimately failed to be an Epicurean, with the implication that his attempt is necessary to constructing what he ultimately meant to say with the jardin; Simone de Beauvoir alludes to the Epicureanism of Candide's garden in her essay Pyrrhus and Cineas. Cynwolfe ( talk) 16:58, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
Yeah, sorry. I mentioned this article in a discussion of plot summary length, and he now thinks that, even though the plot summary has extensive discussion of everything, he can carry out his campaign against articles on fiction discussing that fiction here. There's no policy or guideline whatsoever behind his tag, and it may and should be removed on sight. Shoemaker's Holiday Over 210 FCs served 01:57, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
To be honest, the plot summary in this article seems excessive. To nitpick just one point, why mention the dervish at all? It seems very important to the article that the entirety of the plot be described. This seems excessive. Should not the article only touch on plot points of relevence to the story, and as such, only include plot points necessary to the broad story arc or that are discussed further in the article? Hipocrite ( talk) 17:31, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
It may be details can safely be trimmed, but to remove Cunegonde's death followed by her being descovered to have survived (possibly one of the most quoted bits of the book, in my experience), to remove Pangloss' creation of optimistic interpretations, such as the one at Jacques' death, and so on serve to make the plot summary misleading. It's probably possible to do a more concise plot summary, but removing the key scenes that set up Voltaire's themes of suffering and the foolishness of optimism in an unjust, cruel world isn't the way. If anything, I'd add a tiny bit: (translation: [3]
"is it you? Is it Miss Cunegund I behold, and alive? Do I find you again in Portugal? then you have not been ravished? they did not rip open your body, as the philosopher Pangloss informed me?"
"Indeed but they did," replied Miss Cunegund; "but these two accidents do not always prove mortal."
Likewise, Hipocrite's suggestion that the dervish is not mentioned is patently ridiculous to anyone who's read the book - this is the key turning point of the novel.
Many of the instances that could be cut are made uncuttable through discussion of Voltaire's references. For instance, the paragraph
“ | This companion, Martin, discusses Pangloss's philosophy with Candide and reveals that he himself is a Manichean scholar from Amsterdam. The character of Martin is based on the real-life pessimist Pierre Bayle, who is a chief opponent of Leibniz.[54] For the remainder of the voyage, Martin and Candide argue about philosophy, Candide still being an optimist at heart since it is all he knows. Approaching an English port they witness the execution of a British naval officer on the charge of not killing enough of the enemy (Admiral John Byng was shot on such a charge). Horrified, Candide refuses to even set foot on British soil. | ” |
Could be cut - if it weren't for the fact that it contains two examples of the fairly constant references made throughout the book. Perhaps it should be anyway, but it shouldn't be without discussion.
In the end, Candide is as much an essay on philosophy as a novel. Cutting out all the philosophy, as is being proposed here, just does not provide an effective summary of the work.
That said, there are several points where the setup for later scenes is created, but the payoff ever arrives. We shouldn't, for example, bother mentioning the red sheep if the parody of doctors and vets - (roughly: The scientists can't decide how the sheep could have red wool, there's debates, and then, finally, the professors arbitrarily declare that the red colour of their wool could only come from blood staining it, and thus the sheep clearly had scabies, and by all rights should be very sick) - if you're not going to mention that, why bring up the sheep at all? Shoemaker's Holiday Over 210 FCs served 18:23, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
Shoemaker's Holiday Over 210 FCs served 18:17, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
I'm monumentally busy but I wanted to say "thanks, great job," with the edits to the plot so far. I think there may be more to do, but I'm certain we can get it worked out. I'm glad this didn't devolve into nastyness. Hipocrite ( talk) 21:25, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
I'm going to cut some of the French - do we need to know the French descriptions for the brutish sailor who permanently disappears in the next scene, for instance? Does the fact that the old woman is described in the book by the French word for old woman add anything? And so on. I'll put it into ref tags for now, feel free to delete it outright. Shoemaker's Holiday Over 210 FCs served 22:08, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
I've removed the origins of Candide and Pangloss' names.
I just don't see any good place to put them that doesn't cause them to appear little more than trivia. Shoemaker's Holiday Over 210 FCs served 22:22, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
Right. Oh, I also removed Cacambo's derivation from Caca. Probably should include that too. Shoemaker's Holiday Over 210 FCs served 23:57, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
Should there be a list of a few references to Candide in popular culture, as for example in the TV programme "Sharpe's sword"?
Even beyond "references," I can't believe there's nothing about "Forrest Gump" in the Derivative Works section. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.67.131.215 ( talk) 17:24, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
Hi,
I have re-activated the link to the Tailored Texts edition of 'Candide' in the original French. The edition contains over 2000+ human-made annotations made specifically for English speakers reading the original (many of whom will be using this Wikipedia page).
It is a unique resource in that it allows interactive annotations (i.e. any registered users can annotate the text and discuss them, not just the webmaster) and that the interface has been specifically designed for people reading foreign-language literature.
I have talked to EdBever about this.
86.160.39.159 ( talk) 14:41, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
"A number of historical events inspired Voltaire to write Candide, most notably the publication of Leibniz's "Monadology", a long logical treatise that concludes "Therefore this is the best of all possible worlds", the Seven Years' War, and the 1755 Lisbon earthquake. Both of the latter catastrophes are frequently referred to in Candide and are cited by scholars as reasons for its composition.[10] The 1755 Lisbon earthquake, tsunami, and resulting fires of All Saints' Day, had a strong influence on theologians of the day and on Voltaire, who was himself disillusioned by them. The earthquake had an especially large effect on the contemporary doctrine of optimism, a philosophical system which implies that such events should not occur. Optimism is founded on the theodicy of Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz that says all is for the best because God is a benevolent deity."
The Monadology is actually very brief, only 90 paragraphs. Many modern editions are long because about 90% of the text is commentary added by others. Also, it is a stretch to say that Leibniz thought God was a "benevolent deity." His God is perfect, so His creations are perfect. Thus, the idea that this is the best of all worlds follows logically, but it has nothing to do with God's kindness or warm feelings for humanity. The old Noslin ( talk) 15:39, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
At least I was reminded of Candide when I saw it. Am I alone in perceiving some parallels? knoodelhed ( talk) 17:30, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
In the opening paragraph it is stated that Candide lives in an "Edenic paradise". I thought the irony was that, given Candide's shelteredness, what Voltaire considered a dismal part of Germany was considered the "best castle in the best province in the best of all possible worlds". BigGoyForYou ( talk) 07:04, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
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Is it a novel or a novella? Both terms are being used inconsistently throughout the article. -- Pemilligan ( talk) 01:38, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
This is taken from chapter 23 of the French wikisource: "mais dans ce pays-ci il est bon de tuer de temps en temps un amiral pour encourager les autres." PatGallacher ( talk) 22:28, 22 May 2021 (UTC)
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