Candace newmaker
Story is linkd to a mysterious game called pertscope it is a game were you have to solve problems to get pet's you can also find a little girl called care you can get version A of care which is happy you can also get version B is average sad nor happy or you can get version C very sad and covers her face
p.s. you can not play this game because I searched every app store and I could not find it
.
Miss Newmaker claimed to have seen Candace adult other children and to set fires in the house but the nabers said that she was a good little girl. So was miss Newmarket lying to you and maby the nabers were lying to you
The two therapists who killed Candace Newmaker were both legally allowed to practice in Colorado. Connell Watkins had been an unlicensed psychotherapist registered with the State of Colorado, which allowed her to practice, which she had done for over fifteen years in Colorado. Julie Ponder was a marriage and family therapist in California, and under reciprocity agreements was allowed to y practice in Colorado. These are facts which came out in trial.
It was part of the scandal of this case that the little girl was (a) killed during what was claimed to be psychotherapy and (b) killed by persons legally allowed to practice. Additionally, part of the importance of the case was that these convictions were the first time that practicing therapists were criminally convicted for maltreatment during a therapy session, where the criminality did not involve sexual misconduct.
Thus, it is both inaccurate and misses the point to describe these therapists as "unlicensed". While some mental-health practitioners would like to place Newmaker's killers as outside the legal framework mental-health practice (licensing), that is only their point of view and is not supported by the facts of the matter.
I have accordingly improved the article to remove the words "unlicensed" as being wrong, POV and misleading to Wiki readers.
Larry Sarner 14:35, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
Thank you for the opportunity to establish this. The licensure facts as I've stated them are verifiable in Attachment Therapy on Trial (ISBN 027597675), pp. 44-45, which information was gleaned from trial transcripts. Their licensure status addressed the "reckless" component of the criminal charges. By convicting, the jury settled any question about their culpability deriving from their legal status and professional background. Larry Sarner 21:34, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
"... April 2000, Jeane Newmaker and Candace were on their way to a small clinic, Connell Watkins Associates, run by the unlicensed therapist Connell Watkins in her home in Evergreen, Colorado, not far from Denver. Under Colorado law, Watkins, a social worker,
"... it of her. Colorado law did not ask for Watkins to be licensed as a therapist, and even registration of unlicensed therapists with the state was not needed until 1988, when registration with the state Mental Health Grievance Board became a ..."
"... present at her death by suffocation (luring that therapy. This text examines the beliefs of the girl's mother and the unlicensed therapists, showing that the (heath, though Unintentional, ryas a logical outcome of this form of treatment. (continual on buck flap) ..."
JPotter 23:08, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
First, the dust cover is not a part of the source (it wasn't written by the authors) and is irrelevant and not usable as a reliable source. A case could be made that the reference made above was to the entire group of adults, and two of the five were unlicensed (the "therapeutic" foster parents), but they are not the subject of the present controversy.
Second, Ponder was licensed, and the fact of her licensure has been verified by the book. Continuing to refer to her as unlicensed is false and should stop. Ditto with Jeane Newmaker who was also licensed (as a nurse) and was being used during treatment as a "co-therapist".
Third, both on page 28 and 44 of the source, the meaning of Watkins's unlicensed status was discussed and placed into the proper context I described before. To take the term out of context and describe Watkins simply as unlicensed is to deliberately mislead and misinform the reader; her legal culpability and professional status was much more nuanced than that. I grant that extensive discussion of the meaning of being "registered" to practice psychotherapy in Colorado would be awkward in an encyclopedia, but if the term is used, then such a discussion should or must take place to properly inform the reader. It is avoided, however, by not mentioning it out of context, which is what I've been doing by removing the references (which are wrong in the case of Ponder in any case).
Fourth, mentioning the licensure twice (and indisputably erroneously in the case of Ponder) is gilding the lily, especially when I came up with a reasonable solution for the second mention (i.e., using the defendants' surnames) instead of characterizing them.
Fifth, the way is "unlicensed" is used in this article is unjustifiably POV. No justification for inclusion of this characterization has ever been tendered.
Larry Sarner 08:32, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
They were unlicensed and as a verifiable fact it is relevant. SamDavidson 17:50, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
DPeterson 23:48, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
An editor should be careful and specific about which edits are thought to be not NPOV before reverting another editor's hard work wholesale. For example, what is not NPOV about stating that Candace was killed at a home in Evergreen and not in Golden? Because it happens to be the geographical location of a lot of leading attachment therapists?
The therapists (plural) were not clearly unlicensed, as a reliable source has stated otherwise. It is POV to insist upon mistaken and misleading information be included, especially when the inclusion serves no good purpose.
It is a settled question that a reliable source about a topic can be listed in a reading section. Besides, I didn't list it in the first place.
The reversion is to a version which is, in my opinion, hopelessly inaccurate, biased and POV. Reversions to that version should stop.
Larry Sarner 08:53, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
Mr. Sarner, please stop your reverts. If you disagree, state that here and then follow the citations and consensus. Removing items from the Also see section, and other reverts you have made do not represent a NPOV. Please stop.
The references clearly state they were unlicensed, inlcuding the book you and your colleagues at Advocates for Children in Therapy wrote as cited by another editor in the previous section. DPeterson 12:10, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
David, much improved. JohnsonRon 17:59, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
Yes, I agree DPeterson 02:21, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
does somebody mind editing the text? somebody was obviously very bitter about the event when it was written.-- Nicole M. 00:19, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for editing it to NPOV! I didn't know how to word it properly so I just took what other articles on child abuse victims said and what the Rocky Mountain News editorials said about it. It wasn't my opinion. In reality, I'm neutral about this subject. The main reason I started this article was because there wasn't one yet, not because I knew about it. I wanted to find out more about it, and Wikipedia didn't have an article on it. Elle Bee 15:31, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
The changes made to the article are justified as follows:
1. Candace Newmaker was not accidentally suffocated, but was found by a jury to have been killed by two practitioners of attachment therapy.
2. While contemporarily popularized by the press as a "rebirthing", the session wherein Candace was killed does in fact bear no relation to the New Age "rebirthing" of William Emerson, et al., and it would be a service to Wikipedia readers not to continue that misconception. The "rebirthing" scenario was actually just the script for one day's treatment during a two-week attachment-therapy intensive.
3. Ponder was a licensed marriage and family therapist at the time she killed Candace, and she lost her license as a result. Watkins was indeed unlicensed as a psychotherapist, but that was not a salient fact leading to the jury's guilty verdict on the principal charges. Thus, it is inaccurate and/or misleading to identify them as unlicensed.
4. The "therapeutic foster parents" (St Clair and McDaniel) were not "ad hoc"; their role was an integral part of the overall intensive. It was completely irrelevant that they were "unlicensed", as licenses were not then required for "therapeutic foster parents", or even for anyone to "assist" in therapy.
5. Jeanne Newmaker was more than just in "attendance" at her daughter's death, she was an active participant as evidenced by her pleading guilty to abuse/neglect charges.
6. The 11 hours of videotapes of Candace's treatment were made over 5 days, mostly in the preceding week, not 10 days.
7. The mention of ACT assisting the prosecution is gratuitous, and has nothing to do with the events or surrounding the death. Moreover, it doesn't enlighten Wiki readers about anything; it doesn't even say what ACT did to assist.
8. The facts about Jeanne Newmaker's plea bargain, and about most other flagged statements, are reported in the first external link (and its webography). They are also reported in Attachment Therapy on Trial.
9. Candace's Law in Colorado is widely reported. North Carolina's version copies Colorado's and is found at http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/enactedlegislation/statutes/html/bysection/chapter_14/gs_14-401.21.html.
10. The "death video" has never been publicly shown outside the trial of Watkins and Ponder. The judge "sealed" them to prevent it.
11. Mention of ACT in the "See Also" section is unnecessary as a relevant link appears in "External Links".
12. The external links needed repair.
13. I discovered Candace's birth year was given incorrectly.
Larry Sarner 09:28, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
Source states unlicensed therapists. No source that "Therapeutic" foster parents were licensed by state...souce needed to assert that. DPeterson talk 13:12, 12 October 2006 (UTC) link to rebirthing is not relevant, given article there...agreed. ACT claims credit for helping in prosecution and in interesting and relevant link. DPeterson talk 13:20, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
"killed" seems to be a bit of a loaded term, implying intent. what does the jury finding actually say? StokerAce 13:22, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
"kill" is a neutral term that means, according to the American Heritage Dictionary ( http://www.bartleby.com/61/86/K0058600.html), "1a. To put to death. b. To deprive of life: The Black Death was a disease that killed millions. Notice that there is nothing saying that The Black Death intended to kill millions, just that it was the agent for depriving millions of their lives. "Kill" is a succinct, unambiguous term communicating exactly what happened to Candace. The only thing left to determine in using it here is how she was deprived of life.
The jury was instructed by the judge to make a determination, beyond a reasonable doubt, whether "the defendant, in the State of Colorado, at or about the date and place charged, recklessly, caused an injury to a child's life or health, or permitted a child to be unreasonably placed in a situation that posed a threat of injury to the child's life or health, or engaged in a continued pattern of conduct that resulted in lack of proper medical care, cruel punishment, mistreatment or an accumulation of injuries, which resulted in the death" of Candace Newmaker. They, of course, made this determination in the affirmative. In other words, "Candace was killed, during an Attachment Therapy session, by Connell Watkins and Julie Ponder at the former's home."
Given all this, what possible reasons could there be not to use the word killed in this context, except as an attempt either to obfuscate the facts or try to spin the matter in the defendants' favor?
By the way, the death certificate said the cause of death was "brainstem herniation/cerebral edema due to or as a consequence of cerebral anoxia due to or as a consequence of mechanical asphyxiation". In other words, suffocation.
I am restoring my wording in both cases.
Larry Sarner 16:56, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
"kill" is definately the wrong word here. despite official definitions, it imply the two suffocated candance with the intention to murder her. "died" is also not a sufficant word. the death was accidental and should be labeld as such-- Nicole M. 19:37, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
In this instance, consensus can be achieved, even if there is one who disagrees. Since you and your spouce are leaders of ACT and have a vested interest in this material, if it turns out you are the only one disagreeing, then I'd say consensus has been reached. SamDavidson 17:46, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
Aye-- Nicole M. 20:00, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
Nope. The paragraph immediately following the one in question makes the point about conviction already. The paragraph in question is trying to state the facts of the matter, i.e., what happened to Candace (she was killed) and who did it to her (Watkins and Ponder). What you want is a synonym for "killed", and I have an open mind on that, though I'm skeptical that you can come up with another word as accurate as the original. (Gosh, you got your poll, not that it makes any difference about the truth.) Larry Sarner 22:06, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
Heres some free common sense. Someone who has a heart attack and "Loses their life" dies. They were killed by a heart attack. Did the heart intend to kill the person its in? If someone is hit by a car, and loses their life, they are killed by the car. Did the car intend to kill the person it hit? (Im not interested in debating what the driver intended, its beside the point). Whether the driver intended to kill someone goes to the murder statement, but the car still took the life, i.e. killed the person. Dont change the word kill, its just absolute stupidity to debate over basic english. Kill means to take a life, whether its accidental or not. Murder means to kill someone intentionally. Premeditated means you thought about it, therefore its intentional. Kill means to take life away. Whether or not reckless means intention or not is also beside the point, the girl was still killed by someone else (Someone took her life, unless you have sources that say she died of natural causes). I learned that at about age 5. Squad'nLeedah 15:07, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Again, the mention of ACT is gratuitous and gives the Wiki reader nothing relevant to the case. Granted that there's a reliable source for the information (except for the contributor's spelling), but the source isn't a reason for including the information in the article? Without a good reason, it appears like advertising for ACT (which they didn't ask for) or is just there to drive readers to the Wiki article on ACT (the neutrality of which is in dispute). That certainly is not Wiki policy and a disservice to Wiki readers.
I am editing out the (long) mention of ACT until there is some relevance behind including it, and there is consensus about the relevance.
Larry Sarner 18:09, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
The relevance is that this advocacy group claims credit for this and the material is directly related to the subject of the article and is verifiable. How the conviction occurred, what went on, who was involved, are all relevant here. So, I will add back that section, which was in the article before you began your recent edits. However, if you feel strongly about it...let's begin a poll to see if your suggestion should replace what is in the article now. RalphLender talk 18:19, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
The only thing that is verifiable is that ACT makes a claim to have contributed to the prosecution. Other than that, the information content in this section is close to zero, and what little is there is unimportant with relation to the subject of this article. Of what possible enlightenment does this information have for a Wiki reader? The reasons given above underscore how unimportant the information is. Relevance isn't the only standard for inclusion; importance is another. Larry Sarner 07:29, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
why are you objecting to your groups's mention in this article? You don't object to citing your own book as a soucrce of credible information, so your group's statement that it was instrumental in securing the conviction...or at least helped, is clearly relevant. It shows the broad impact of the case and the broad range of interested parties. Given that you and your wife are leaders of this group, your comments on this asepct of the article are suspect. SamDavidson 17:49, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
The "See Also" section had only two references in it, and they were confusingly run together on the same line.
"Attachment Therapy" has an in-line link and so is unnecessary in the See Also section.
"Advocates for Children in Therapy" is not really relevant to the article as it stands, and there is no obvious reason in this article why any reader of it would be directed to the ACT article. Moreover, the ACT article's neutrality is in dispute and until that's resolved, the reference is questionable. Larry Sarner
It is a principle that helping make information easily accessible to the reader is encouraged. Many article list links from the article in the Also see section as this makes it very easy for the reader to find the related article. ACT played an important role in this case, by their admission, so a link to their site is very relevant. RalphLender talk 18:26, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
You cite your own book, which is an ACT publication. Furthermore, the group's involvement in the case is relevant, therefore a link to the article about your group is also relevant. SamDavidson 17:51, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
It will improve the article to provide citations for the staements I've tagged. verifiability is always helpful for the reader wishing to pursue more details. This is consistent with Wikipedia policy and practice. However, I am quite willing to setup a poll here if there is strong disagreement, since building consensus before changing an article is another important principle here. RalphLender talk 18:25, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
Citations need to be in the article not on talk pages.
The link goes to an article identifying the therapist as unlicensed; seems reasonable to me.
will edit accordingly RalphLender talk 19:28, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
The verifiable, reliable source is Attachment Therapy on Trial (pp. 60-61). St Clair and McDaniel were some of the staffers of Watkins and Associates with the task of being "therapeutic foster parents" for children going through Watkins's intensive. It was not an ad hoc thing, but a regular assignment. Larry Sarner 23:26, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
They were not licensed by the state as "therapeutic foster parents." However, if you can provide a source stating differently, please do so. SamDavidson 17:52, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
It is most salient whether or not they were state certified and trained foster parents. However, putting the term in quotes "self-described therapeutic foster parents" with the wording addition I have put, seems like a reasonable compromise. Yes? SamDavidson 17:13, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
I agree that self-described, without the quotes, would be best. If they were not certified or trained by the state or county, then they were "self-described," unless someone can provide a reference that is verifiable that they were, in fact, state trained foster parents. JohnsonRon 22:22, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
Regardless of what anyone calls them, if they not trained by the state they are not foster parents and and the proper term is "self-described." However if you have a verifiable source showing that they were so trained, please show that. Otherwise, stop bullying everyone and deleting material and make a constructive suggestion to see if it flys. JohnsonRon 11:47, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
There is no evidence cited that the "therapeutic foster parents" were licensed. Either provide a citation or that term should be deleted and change to "two other adults." The references to ACT are clearly relevant and should stay; especially since Sarner is citing his own material as a verifiable source and he, along with his spouce, are the two leaders of ACT. SamDavidson 17:42, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
Training is necesary to be a foster parent or a therapeutic foster parent. Cite a source that they were certified, otherwise, let's stick with the other term.
As a leader of ACT, as others have pointed out, you are not in a position to objectively comment on this. I see the reference and material as very relevant and interesting. DPeterson talk 01:08, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
You assisted in the prosecution, the article is about her death...the link is apparently clear to everyone here except you...and since you are clearly linked directly to the subject, that does raise a question about your objectivity. In this instance, I think the opinion of editors is clear. SamDavidson 17:18, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
'see below' SamDavidson 17:17, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
ACT's citation of its involvement in the case and it's Director, Sarner's use of his and ACT's book as a reference, support the inclusion of material about them and then a link to an article in Wikipedia about them for those who want more details. So, I "vote" for the material to stay. JohnsonRon 22:26, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
Maybe Sarner does not want his organization linked to this case? Regardless, he has a vested interest and a conflict of interest here, so other editors should decide. However, if he disagrees, maybe he should bring the issue to mediation. JohnsonRon 22:26, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
You are distorting and misconstruing what I wrote. All I am saying is that a consensus is present and your standing is questionable given your conflict of interest and vested interests. For this reason you should discuss changes here and either ask for a poll or mediation You are alone in your position. JohnsonRon 21:26, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
All you need to do is provide a verifiable and reliable source for your statements. Please stop being bully by deleting material. Try to follow Wikkipedia policy regarding resolving disputes by considering: taking a poll, engaging in mediation, arbitration, etc. Merely starting an edit and revert war, as you did on the Bowlby page, which cause you to be sanctioned, is not constructive. JohnsonRon 11:50, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Your own website states that you were actively involved. The link in the article leads to: 'It’s finally here! A book entirely devoted to critically examining the bizarre world of Attachment (Holding) Therapy, the most pernicious pseudoscience and dangerous quackery thriving in the United States today. Attachment Therapy on Trial: The Torture and Death of Candace Newmaker by Jean Mercer, Larry Sarner and Linda Rosa (Praeger; May 30, 2003). This book sells at a whopping $44.95, reflecting the wealth of insights provided by psychology professor Jean Mercer on nature of Attachment Therapy and AT parenting methods. All three authors assisted the prosecution in the “rebirthing” trial that resulted in historic 16-year sentences for therapists Connell Watkins and Julie Ponder.' SamDavidson 17:17, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
I think the Advocates for Children in Therapy reference and material is very relevant and informative. However, your involvement as a leader of ACT, author of the book, etc. mean you have vested interests here and a conflict of interest. As I said above, if you disagree, perhaps you should request mediation. I notice that you had some difficulties with Administrators regarding your edits to the Bowlby page. In the meantime, your comments here are suspect and it should be up to other editors to discuss this and build consensus. JohnsonRon 22:29, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
Except for you, there is a consensus here for keeping the material on ACT. Your role as a leader of ACT suggests a vested interest and conflict of interest regarding making changes about this group. The mediation effort on the Bowlby page worked just fine. A consensus occured and you were banned from continuing to make destructive changes...at least that's how I read the talk page there and the related Admin pages. The material is on this page, so it is up to you to explain why it should be deleted and to see if you can convince others to agree with you (building consensus it is called); not bully other editors by contining to unilaterally make changes that are unsupported. JohnsonRon 21:29, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
There you go again avoiding the salient issue that 'you are a leader of ACT and that this creates a vested interest' and conflict of interest. You are continuing to be disruptive by not seeking consensus and by being a bully here. I strongly urge you to follow Wikipedia policy and practice regarding resolving disputes: consider a poll, consider trying to build consensus and not bully other editors, consider mediation. JohnsonRon 11:44, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
All anyone needs to do to build real consensus about the inclusion of the ACT reference is satisfactorily explain what is the value of the information contained. So far, no one has made any attempt to do that. The failure to even make the attempt is telling. Per Wiki policy, the ACT reference should not be in the article; it could be restored if and when a satisfactory justification is made for inclusion. Larry Sarner 06:56, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
If you read the previous sections you will find lots off details on the materials reference. The following from above are examples:
The relevance is that this advocacy group claims credit for this and the material is directly related to the subject of the article and is verifiable. How the conviction occurred, what went on, who was involved, are all relevant here. So, I will add back that section, which was in the article before you began your recent edits. However, if you feel strongly about it...let's begin a poll to see if your suggestion should replace what is in the article now. RalphLendertalk 18:19, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
As a leader of ACT, I don't see why Sarner is objecting the the linkage here? He is one of the individual's taking credit for the result, according the the ACT website. SamDavidson 20:42, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
why are you objecting to your groups's mention in this article? You don't object to citing your own book as a soucrce of credible information, so your group's statement that it was instrumental in securing the conviction...or at least helped, is clearly relevant. It shows the broad impact of the case and the broad range of interested parties. Given that you and your wife are leaders of this group, your comments on this asepct of the article are suspect. SamDavidson 17:49, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
why are you objecting to your groups's mention in this article? You don't object to citing your own book as a soucrce of credible information, so your group's statement that it was instrumental in securing the conviction...or at least helped, is clearly relevant. It shows the broad impact of the case and the broad range of interested parties. Given that you and your wife are leaders of this group, your comments on this asepct of the article are suspect. SamDavidson 17:49, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
RalphLender talk 21:54, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Read addtional details above. A consensus exists that the material is relevant. Your objections do not have a sound basis and reflect your status as a leader of ACT, with a vested interest/conflict of interest in this regard.
RalphLender
talk 21:56, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
The relevant issue is that you are a leader of ACT and that this creates a vested interest and conflict of interest. Therefore your edits are suspect. Furthermore you continue to avoid the consensus that has been built here. You are continuing to be disruptive by not seeking consensus and by being a bully here. I strongly urge you to follow Wikipedia policy and practice regarding resolving disputes: consider a poll, consider trying to build consensus and not bully other editors, consider mediation. This has been suggested before you you continue to ignore that. This is one reason you were sanctioned from editing the Bowlby page. DPeterson talk 12:53, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Another controversy here is the application of the word "unlicensed" in reference to Watkins and Ponder. I have cited above reliable and verifiable (primary) sources that Ponder was licensed at all times relevant to this case. Per Wiki policy, this term should be removed as being false, and I have done so. Larry Sarner 22:44, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Still another controversy is the qualification of the term "'therapeutic foster parents'", and whether "self-described" is appropriate. I have shown above that it is not. However, I am willing to see the word "unlicensed" used as a qualifier instead, and have edited accordingly. Larry Sarner 22:44, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Finally, there are continual reverts of my editing as to whether this case has caused enduring controversy over "Attachment Therapy" or "rebirthing". There is no controversy over rebirthing (a New Age practice uninvolved with this case) and was conflated by the contemporary press and others. Evidence of this is in Wiki itself, where there is no rebirthing article, but there is one on Rebirthing-Breathwork. However, there is plenty of enduring controversy about Attachment Therapy -- and a Wiki article on the topic. Inserting "rebirthing" for "Attachment Therapy" is a great disservice to Wiki readers. Larry Sarner 22:44, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
I have made the changes suggested by Sarner...I hope that I have not overstepped here. If other editors disagree, please say so here and feel free to revert the article back to the version in place before my edits so we can have further discussion here and build a consensus. It did seem to me that Mr. Sarner's suggestions were consistent with the comments and opinions, as I read them, of other editors. What I did:
Again, if I've overstepped, please accept my apologies...I would like to see a consensus develop here. DPeterson talk 23:06, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
There has been a clear consensus on this page regarding language and materials to include. If you disagree, the appropriate action is to follow Wikipedia dispute resolution processes and not bully others by continually reverting pages. You might consider a poll...or presenting options here and seeking consensus....or mediation, as just a few appropriate steps. I know other's have suggested this and you have ignorerd it...but it would be good to consider following these steps...not following them is what got you banned on the Bolwlby article. RalphLender talk 13:42, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
You began a while ago making changes that did not represent consensus and several editors have raised this concern with you here and on other talk pages. All people are asking is that you start to follow Wikipedia dispute resolution proceese and procedures. RalphLender talk 21:27, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
You have not been slandered... the truth is:
'You have been blocked for 48 hours for personal attacks [3] and disruption, including the AfD which in my opinion is disrupting Wikipedia to prove a point. When you come back, you are to disengage with DPeterson; he has complained to me that he feels harassed and I don't blame him. I have looked through his contributions and I don't see any incivility coming from him. You may contest this block by placing {{unblock|(reason you should be unblocked)}} on your user talk page, which you can still edit. Mango juice talk 01:19, 23 July 2006 (UTC)'
From your talk page regarding your conduct on the Bowlby article. RalphLender talk 21:29, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
Well, you were blocked and that is relevant because, as I read the talk pages of both articles, I see that the same behavior that led to your being 'blocked' on the Bowlby article is occuring on this article. Several other editors have encouraged you to engage in constructive discussions and not just continue to revert to your unique POV. They have suggested you follow dispute resolution procedures, and I support that. MarkWood 13:33, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
I suggest the editors here open a request for comment to bring in fresh opinions. Also I'd like to suggest this essay. Respectfully, Durova 05:38, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
Rather than continuing to revert or make unacceptable edits, I suggest that you propose suggested changes here. Then other editors can comment, make further suggestions and we can achieve a consensus. JonesRD talk 21:05, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
That's one approach, but it sounds an awful lot like having to clear changes ahead of time, or "de facto" protection by non-administrator(s). Wiki is supposed to be an open encyclopedia. No one person or group has ownership of an article. I've seen it said on Wiki, "If you don't want what you write mercilessly edited, don't post it here". How about this approach, instead: If anyone disputes something that has been added by another editor, put next to it an inline dubious tag, or for larger material, a section warning,
This article's factual accuracy is
disputed. (March 2008) |
Then open up a section on this talk page and discuss it. The tag or warning stays up until a genuine consensus (or other dispute resolution) is reached. I think the templates for such things were created just for situations like this. Larry Sarner 23:17, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
See, there you go again being confrontational and not seeking common ground. 'The page represented a consensus developed in the past, after you were blocked for a while'. To build another consensus, you should participate in a colloaborative effort to build consensus and not continue to be uncivil and rever other's changes and ignore the consensus on this page. Your edits have been "mercilessly edited" because no one agrees with you. However, I am willing to engage with you in a reasoned dialogue focused on building agreement. Changes not accepted are reverted because you are pushing a very limited and unaccepted view. But, I think we can find agreement if you will follow Wikipedia practices regarding dispute resolution. DPeterson talk 23:55, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
As recommended by several other editors, you have been asked to stop reverting from the consensus version to your own. Since you've rejected taking a poll and various other Wikipedia dispute resolution procedures; let me suggest another option. Instead of merely reverting to your version and deleting material that others find acceptable, how about if you just 'ADD' what you think would improve the article first, get a consensus on that and then begin discussions about what you think should be chnaged or delted and build consensus for that? RalphLender talk 13:57, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
I don't see where you put your suggestions here for community review, as many editors have suggested in the spirit of adhering to Wikipedia dispute resolution policies. DPeterson talk 12:57, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
It would be better for Shotwell and Sarner together to just add material to the article and no delete material that many other editors on this page have found valuable and relevant. However, if you both feel material should be deleted or changed, why don't you just follow the suggestions, made 'MANY' times here that you put that into a separate section for comment by others and see if a consensus emerges. SamDavidson 15:04, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
No, actually it is a procedure for developing consensus in accord with Wikipedia policies. Engaging in a revert-war, as you are, is not in accord with Wikipedia policies. DPeterson talk 12:33, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to reiterate that this is a very well-documented case that had some enormous implications in the world of attachment-based therapy. We can all agree on that point. I think that the large majority of editors here can come to an agreement about most of the information regarding this case. Perhaps we could find some common ground if we focused on adding factual and npov information, copy-editing, standardizing reference format (footnotes or Harvard?), and so forth. I can standardize the references when I have some spare-time tonight.
If we started focusing on this sort of editing activity, we could really build a nice article with multiple points of view. The fact that some of the editors have very differing opinions on AT could really be a positive thing. Can we all agree to not revert each other's edits if the edits are for the purpose of adding credible information? If there is some issue with phrasing, then just rephrase it. This is, after all, a wiki!
Since I have questions that others could answer quite easily, I'll list them here. I'd like to see this information added to the article. I encourage anyone with additional questions to add them below mine in the same format. In this fashion we can start building up a list of missing information.
Shotwell's questions
shotwell 13:29, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Good Questions
RalphLender talk 14:06, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Mr. Sarner/Stoker Ace, Some of this is very old and may be irrelevant and may reflect your POV as a leader of ACT...or at least should be put into context with current information to provide balance and a NPOV. Good start, though. RalphLender talk 17:09, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Maybe. The investigation is ongoing regarding your status as a sockpuppet. After the results that investigation, we will know the facts. RalphLender talk 23:16, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Here's a thumbnail sketch about Watkins. She was clinical director at the Attachment Center at Evergreen (ACE), before going into private practice in Attachment Therapy, run out of her home in Evergreen (literally a few hundred feet away from ACE). She is an MSW, and was registered for many years as a psychotherapist in Colorado (that state has not required psychotherapists to be licensed since 1988). While CD at ACE, she and others founded ATTACh (the leading person in the founding was her boss at ACE, Foster Cline), and remained an active member for many years in the nineties. At the time of Candace's "treatment", Watkins had let her psychotherapist registration lapse (she claimed at trial that she had paid the required fee, but presented no documentary evidence), and also let her ATTACh membership lapse. The latter lapse has allowed ATTACh to claim that she was not one of them. On her disclosure forms to patients (include Newmaker), Watkins claimed that she was "working under" the LCSW license of Neil Feinberg, one of her associates. (Earlier, at ACE, she claimed to be "working under" the MD license of Cline.) Her departure from ACE allowed that center to claim that they had nothing to do with her; in truth, there were close ties. Watkins was widely known and praised in the AT community -- she either co-invented or popularized the "two-week intensive" which was, and is, a ubiquitous AT approach.
Bill Goble referred Jeanne Newmaker to Watkins. Goble was not a social worker, but licensed as a psychologist in North Carolina. At the 1999 ATTACh Conference (seven months before Candace's death), he gave Jeanne a RADQ (an unvalidated instrument developed at ACE and still owned by them) and scored it after she faxed it to him after the conference. He thus "diagnosed" Candace as a "severe" case of reactive attachment disorder and referred Jeanne specifically to Connell Watkins for treatment.
I've been gradually working up this story for the article.
Labeling Watkins as "unlicensed" is an AT red herring to distance themselves from the bad publicity surrounding the Newmaker case. In sum, Watkins was an experienced attachment therapist and a highly respected leader of the AT community. She was a Clinical Director at the leading AT facility in the world (ACE). Her private practice was successful, and she got referrals from licensed people who are also ATers. A licensed MFT assisted her with the Newmaker case. The leading ATer promoting AT "parenting", Nancy Thomas, who also was an associate with "Watkins & Associates", is also "unlicensed", and no one in AT makes a point of that! Indeed, here is a link where a leading ATer recommends Becker-Weidman's and Nancy Thomas's writings together.
Larry Sarner 18:51, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
The fact remains, she was unlicensed and this meets the Wikipedia standard for verifiability. Your last paragraph is irrelevant. What relevance does Nancy Thomas work have to this specific article...What relevance is it what a "leading ATer recommends" to this article? Please try to keep your comments focused, on point, and relevant to this article. In fact much of what you state here, while interesting, is not relevant and may not even be factual...This is the same material your alleged sockpuppet StokerAce referred to, I think, above. RalphLender talk 19:34, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
The fact remains that she was unlicensed and the last paragraph above is irrelevant, as I said before. Regarding the sockpuppet issue, as soon as that is finally resolved, we will know whether or not StokerAce and Sarner are one and the same. RalphLender talk 23:19, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
The information about her therapy leading up to her eventual death is also interesting:
So is the (highly disturbing) information describing her eventual death:
I feel that incorporating much of the above information into the article would give her "therapy" further some context. shotwell 13:12, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
In an effort to stop the revert war and start building a comprehensive article, I merged the two versions of the article that are being argued about. I also standardized the reference format and did some wikification. I'm in a rush (teach soon) and probably left redundant information or some other problem. Please check accordingly.
The edit history shows that the reasoning behind the constant reverting was something along the lines of "lacks important information". Since that information is now included, I see no reason to continue reverting. As for the mention of ACT, I think it is quite irrelevant, but I'm willing to ignore it while we build a better article. Maybe after a comprehensive article is written, the importance of this information will become more clear.
If someone doesn't like something in this article, then rephrase it, possibly request a citation, put a template on it, etc. All of those templates exist for a reason. shotwell 14:20, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
Some of the citations are from material prepared by Sarner, his wife Rosa, and their colleague Mercer, the three leaders of ACT. Whether their material is factual can be a question, given the fact that this advocacy group has a vested interest in the case and issues. So, their material may not be verifiable. What would be more NPOV would be a citation to either a part of the court transcript or a newspaper article. DPeterson talk 15:20, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
I understand the placement of citation requests on web materials, but I do not understand why they are placed on something that is already cited by a fairly reliable source. Is it that you don't trust the book? Is that you'd like more cross-referencing? It isn't that large of an issue because 1.)I like multiple sources 2.)I'm sure one readily exists. The main reason I ask is because if you don't trust the book as a reliable source, then we need to address the fact. I would point out, however, that it is published under a very respected publisher. shotwell 20:26, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
Perceived NPOV issues cannot be corrected unless an explanation is given. shotwell 20:26, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
The reason I'm making these edits in small steps is so that its very easy for everyone to see what is happening to the article. I personally hate a cluttered edit history. I will gladly stop editing like this if everyone agrees that it is unnecessary.
Also, I'd like to see more information regarding her two week intensive. It seems that she was being given meds and other treatments. What other treatments? Who was the prescribing doctor for these medicines? shotwell 22:21, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm glad to see some relenting on the revert war. I have left the ACT reference for the time being. It still reads like an advertisement and there is no justification made for the importance of this information to be included in an encyclopedic article. But I am willing to forego further deletions of that material to see if that importance is eventually demonstrated, in the same spirit as expressed by Shotwell.
I have many more edits to make, but I've made one already. In the "Effects" section, the enduring controversy deriving from this case does not surround "rebirthing". Except for the initial press coverage, the legislation in CO and NC, and the non-binding resolutions in Congress, no one is concerned with "rebirthing". All the attention of people concerned has focused in the last five years on Attachment Therapy. Note that the definitive book on the case is entitled, Attachment Therapy on Trial. So I have changed the reference in the article accordingly.
I've also eliminated the useless list of newspapers about the national and international coverage of this case. The papers cited were not representative of the extent of the coverage, and I don't think a truly representative list would be useful to Wiki readers. TMI.
Larry Sarner 22:41, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
First, he has a vested interest here as a leader, with his wife Rosa, of ACT, and as author of the book. Second, and more importantly, the book is flawed with factual errors and so cannot be relied upon as a source. the Candace Newmaker article need to be sourced by something other than the book written by the ACT leaders, Sarner, Mercer, and Rosa...There are many inaccuracies in that book:
Was it going to put "attachment therapy on trial?" Jensen's answer was simple and straight-forward. "No!"
He intended on pursuing a very narrow prosecution to prove that Watkins and Ponder were responsible under the terms of the state's child abuse / homicide statute for the death of Candace Newmaker. Child abuse/homicide is the most serious felony in the Colorado state criminal code.
Thus, with the title, the authors are fraudulenty trying to assert something which simply is not true. The only part of the Newmaker trial that was concerned with the value of Attachment Therapy was the defense. And, unfortunately, that was because of the existence of a videotape which showed Watkins and Ponder "in the act." The defense had no other alternative than to assert that it was simply a mistake of the therapy. Certainly, if the videotape did not exist, the defense would have probably have opted for a different defensive strategy.
And, unfortunately, the book does have several factual errors ... such as the notation by Mr. Patterson. A check with the local Midvale, Utah police department shows Krystal's date of birth as December 7, 1991, and her date of death as July 7, 1995, making her three years, eight months old at her death.
However, Mr. Patterson was incorrect in his statement about the spelling of Newmaker's name. It is correctly spelled J-E-A-N-E.
It was also ironic that when I had lunch with Linda Rosa one day during the trial, that when I asked her about her thoughts on the Jeannie Warren case in Texas with "rage-reduction therapy," she said that she had never heard of it!
Yet, Larry Sarner and his wife / co-author Linda Rosa would leave the courtroom early every day to be ready to give sound bites to the Denver TV news media - about something that they both knew little, if anything about, at that time.
This book seems to reflect the same type of continuing mentality.
Another quote: While the authors arrogantly look down upon "the journalistic practice that has been called pseudosymmetry" (page 6), they have effectively also ignored another journalistic practice: accuracy. It is totally amazing that they contradict themselves on very basic information: page 5: "...Krystal Tibbets, a 4-year-old Utah child..." page 243: "...Krystal Tibbets, who died at the age of 3 in 1996."
What is totally mind-boggling is the arrogant presumption to change or deliberately misspell the name of one of the major historical figures: adoptive mother Jeanne Newmaker.
Apparently the authors did not like the spelling of her name, so they changed it to "Jeane" in the book.
If you can't get even the most minor of facts correct, then most certainly one should not place any credibility in the authors for anything else.
Ignore ... avoid this book, which is riddled with arrogant, ignorant errors and not to be depended upon for any type of credible statement. If in a library, please remove it!
BOTH FROM: http://www.amazon.ca/Attachment-Therapy-Trial-Torture-Newmaker/dp/0275976750/ref=sr_11_1/702-4433484-4142426 serveral others there too
So, using this book as a source of reliable information on the just does not meet the Wikipedia verifiable standard, I think
Regarding the Neutrality tag....Please let that stay. Since so much of this article is written by Sarner and ACT and since they have this vested interest in the case (selling their book for example), I have serious questions about how the facts are being presented. I see a clear POV here.
JohnsonRon 23:00, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
Actually the reviews are quite relevant as one or more of the reviewers was a reporter who followed the story quite closely and published on it. The article shows bias in its inclusion of irrelvant information...what is the point of detailing the affiliations of Gobel, or example? There are so many other POV statements... The status of the book's publisher's status is a matter of opinion,but I see your view is the same as Sarner's on this point. Your statemnt regarding, "some attachment therapists" on amazon further delineates your stance vis-a-vis this article, POV, and Sarner. JohnsonRon 00:39, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
For the items that are poorly sourced, it would be appropriate to remove them, if there is agreement. So, we should have a poll regarding the deleting of statements without credible sources. JohnsonRon 00:41, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
Delete such Material
Do not delete such material
This is a very unfortunate development. I was under the impression that you were not going to engage in such behaviors. I really encourage you to add citation requests where you'd like further citations. I can provide loads of references considering that I have full access to tools such as LexisNexis and EBSCOhost. I'm also sure that Sarner could provide further references given that he literally wrote the book on this subject. shotwell 00:54, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
Should be left in but balanced with opposing views. StokerAce 02:20, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
The policy:
The Sarner/ACT book is not a reliable source DPeterson talk 05:11, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
See above...it's all explained there. RalphLender talk 20:09, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
The following quote is from a reliable newsreporter and meets the verifiable standard: Furhtermore Sarner and ACT have a financial stake in the issue and so given these two fact: factual errors in the book and conflict of interest, the book is not reliable.
Ever since I first read the title of this book I was somewhat concerned. As part of the Newmaker trial coverage for a national news service bureau in Denver, one day during the trial while coming out for lunch I cornered lead prosecutor Steve Jensen and asked him what his prosecution was based on.
Was it going to put "attachment therapy on trial?" Jensen's answer was simple and straight-forward. "No!"
He intended on pursuing a very narrow prosecution to prove that Watkins and Ponder were responsible under the terms of the state's child abuse / homicide statute for the death of Candace Newmaker. Child abuse/homicide is the most serious felony in the Colorado state criminal code.
Thus, with the title, the authors are fraudulenty trying to assert something which simply is not true. The only part of the Newmaker trial that was concerned with the value of Attachment Therapy was the defense. And, unfortunately, that was because of the existence of a videotape which showed Watkins and Ponder "in the act." The defense had no other alternative than to assert that it was simply a mistake of the therapy. Certainly, if the videotape did not exist, the defense would have probably have opted for a different defensive strategy.
And, unfortunately, the book does have several factual errors ... such as the notation by Mr. Patterson. A check with the local Midvale, Utah police department shows Krystal's date of birth as December 7, 1991, and her date of death as July 7, 1995, making her three years, eight months old at her death.
However, Mr. Patterson was incorrect in his statement about the spelling of Newmaker's name. It is correctly spelled J-E-A-N-E.
It was also ironic that when I had lunch with Linda Rosa one day during the trial, that when I asked her about her thoughts on the Jeannie Warren case in Texas with "rage-reduction therapy," she said that she had never heard of it!
Yet, Larry Sarner and his wife / co-author Linda Rosa would leave the courtroom early every day to be ready to give sound bites to the Denver TV news media - about something that they both knew little, if anything about, at that time.
This book seems to reflect the same type of continuing mentality.
DPeterson talk 22:01, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
There are many other inaccuracies and misstatements in the book, so, no, these re not trivial...these are major flaws in a text. DPeterson talk 22:06, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
You are acting as if the following are not substantial errors:
I don't know if the publisher is reputable or not...but, clearly, at a minimum, their fact checking department is deficient. For more details and other problmes with the book, see the previous section. It is clear the book has factual errors...maybe others not yet detected, therefore the reliability of the text is in question. Therefore, lets use reliable and non-disputed material that is neutral and without clear conflicts of interest for sources on this article. DPeterson talk 22:31, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
Still no citations provided. I think it is time to remove the unsourced/unsupported sections. RalphLender talk 14:40, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
The book contains 'significant factual errors' and there is the issue of the blatent conflict of interest here. Sarner, Mercer, Rosa, and their group ACT, have a financial stake in the matter on several fronts. If more reliable sources can be found, then that is the solution. RalphLender talk 23:45, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
Please don't misrepresent the errors in the book:
Ever since I first read the title of this book I was somewhat concerned. As part of the Newmaker trial coverage for a national news service bureau in Denver, one day during the trial while coming out for lunch I cornered lead prosecutor Steve Jensen and asked him what his prosecution was based on.
Was it going to put "attachment therapy on trial?" Jensen's answer was simple and straight-forward. "No!"
He intended on pursuing a very narrow prosecution to prove that Watkins and Ponder were responsible under the terms of the state's child abuse / homicide statute for the death of Candace Newmaker. Child abuse/homicide is the most serious felony in the Colorado state criminal code.
Thus, with the title, the authors are fraudulenty trying to assert something which simply is not true. This, and other, errors and misrepresentations are serious flaws here. Therefore we cannot rely on the book for reliable facts. The statement made about financial interests is clear to me and to anyone who reads it. They make money from the sale of their book, their organization seeks donations and dues and contributions and makes money from the book. DPeterson talk 01:09, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
The writer is a reporter who has extensively reported on the events. This raises concerns about the writer's bias. Furthermore, since the book was written by the leaders of an advocacy group with a vested interest in the outcome of the case...that was the basis for their book and they take credit for the outcome on their website, and they try to garner financial support for their group, it just taints this as a reliable source. If there are not other sources for the statements other than their statements, then I believe the article's statements should be removed as not reliable or verifiable and as only representing the polemics of an advocacy group. So, the simple solution here is just put other references that are reliable and verifiable and, so, in accord with Wikipedia policy, practice, and standards. DPeterson talk 03:03, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
The quote is above and it is written by a legit news reporter. The writer is a reporter who has extensively reported on the events. This raises concerns about the writer's bias. Furthermore, since the book was written by the leaders of an advocacy group with a vested interest in the outcome of the case...that was the basis for their book and they take credit for the outcome on their website, and they try to garner financial support for their group, it just taints this as a reliable source. If there are not other sources for the statements other than their statements, then I believe the article's statements should be removed as not reliable or verifiable and as only representing the polemics of an advocacy group. So, the simple solution here is just put other references that are reliable and verifiable and, so, in accord with Wikipedia policy, practice, and standards. DPeterson talk 11:20, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
Just to set the record straight, all this is humbug. While there are lots of little errors in Attachment Therapy on Trial, mostly typographical in nature, there is only one of the above that can be conceded: we did mistakenly call Krystal Tibbets a 4-year-old in the introduction (but correctly identified her age later in the book). We did not misspell Jeane Newmaker's name. We did not say that the prosecution was putting AT on trial, but it was the point of our book that AT was nevertheless under scrutiny (metaphorically "on trial") because of this case. One of the co-authors was in the courtroom for every minute of the 3-week trial, from jury selection to verdict, and later the sentencing. (The author of the review was frequently absent, and not even there for the verdict, and didn't return for the sentencing.) Linda may not have heard of the Jeannie Warren case at the time of the trial, but so what, she (and I) discovered it soon enough afterwards (though it had no real bearing on this trial, anyway). So where are the articles of impeachment against the book? The writer of the review, on the other hand, is not "a reporter who has extensively reported on the events"; just try to find anything he has written about this case or anything else. Whether he can correctly be called a "legit news reporter" is a matter of opinion. Finally, we have never, ever, taken credit for the outcome of the actual trial, on our website or anywhere else, though we have met all or nearly all of the people -- dozens of them -- who can be given credit for it, and we were honored to be of at least some assistance to them along the way. There is certainly nothing mentioned here that should give anyone pause in relying upon the contents of Attachment Therapy on Trial. Larry Sarner 07:12, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
The first article clearly states within the first few paragraphs that both therapists were unlicensed. JohnsonRon 23:24, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
Someone with the username Billgoble has made a few edits to the article. We need to carefully examine the claims made about people not immediately related to this case, possibly remove their names, and if that is not possible, provide a load of references on such claims. We can convey the essential meaning of the paragraphs about Goble and Thomas (Watkin's was a recommended by the AT community) without naming people. This is a matter of WP:BLP. We need to err strongly on the side of caution when it comes to such things. I'm going to remove some names for now. shotwell 21:49, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
I concur. thanks for bringing that up shotwell.-- Nicole M. 21:59, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
I have a suggestion for how to deal with the issue of mentioning ACT's role. It does look odd to have ACT there all by itself, but how about including a larger section on the prosecution (i.e. the Colorado state attorneys, etc.), and in that section mention ACT's role. StokerAce 01:23, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
I think it fits nicely in the current section. DPeterson talk 05:09, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
The poll above seems to lead to the conclusion that it maybe time for the unsourced material to be deleted. No appropriate citations have been provided. In the interests of keeping it all clear, I'd suggest deleting the material and putting it in a separate section, so that if some one can produce verifiable and reliable soucrces, it will be easy to replace the deleted paragraph(s). RalphLender talk 12:58, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
I've deleted the following material from the article....if reliable and factually accurate references can be provided, then I support replacing the material at that time. SamDavidson 14:40, 3 November 2006 (UTC) The policy:
'REMOVED FROM ARTICLE'
By October, Jeane Newmaker was saying that there was no discernible improvement in Candace's behavior. At the suggestion of the attachment therapists in Guilford, Jeanne Newmaker attended the annual conference of the Association for Treatment and Training of Attachment in Children (ATTACh), that year being held in Alexandria, Virginia. She approached two prominent figures in the attachment therapy community, one being a therapeutic foster parent from Colorado who is a frequent speaker at ATTACh conferences and elsewhere. citation needed
Ms. Newmaker was given a copy of the Randolph Attachment Disorder Questionnaire (RADQ) by one of the therapists she approached, along with instructions to facsimile her responses after the conference. The RADQ is a parental checklist about a child's behavior used in the attachment community, but it is an unvalidated diagnostic tool. citation needed
Through 1999, Jeane Newmaker was attending workshops, conferences, and support groups associated with Attachment Therapy. She was told that Candace had a childhood disorder called Reactive Attachment Disorder (RAD) and took Candace to a center fifty miles away in Guilford, North Carolina for weekly treatments by a practitioner of Attachment Therapy. citation needed
After discussions with Jeane and review of the the RADQ, this therapist recommended Connell Watkins & Associates to Jeane. Connell Watkins was a founding member of ATTACh, but no longer maintained a membership in the organization and was not licensed at the time, although she had been in the past. This recommendation echoed one made by another member of the attachment-therapy community who was an associate of Ms. Watkins
citation needed
Watkins later explained the adults' refusal to release Candace on two grounds. First, they believed the girl could breathe through the sheet and saw her speech and yells as evidence of her breathing. Second, they saw all of Candace's protestations as not genuine, as attempts to manipulate the adults into releasing her. The first of these two was not only refuted by her death, but did not take into account the pillows used to contain her. Also, if the adults had medical training, they would have realized that a person can speak and yell while unable to get oxygen. As to the second matter about viewing Candace's claims as attempts to deceive the adults into letting her go, this is entirely consistent with Attachment Therapy philosophy and practice -- children in treatment are regarded as liars and manipulators, and they must be disregarded or the therapy will fail. Thus, with the adults prepared and determined to disbelieve her distress, nothing Candace could have said would have secured her escape from confinement in a suffocating sheet. The session went on for over an hour, while previous sessions with other children using the same "rebirthing" script, had lasted less than five minutes. citation needed
It appears the the disputes regarding this page have again been settled by mediation and the section without sources will remain deleted unless/untill reliable and verifiable citations are found. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Mediation_Cabal/Cases/2006-10-07_Advocates_for_Children_in_Therapy JohnsonRon 20:43, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
It appears that the dispute has been resolved and the mediation case can be closed with the result being the article as is. That is a fine resolution that appears to represent consensus. JonesRD talk 21:21, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
There was a typo in the above title (Watkins -> Watkins'). I also removed the "in Evergreen, Colorado" because it is just mentioned below. I think I'm the one who added the Evergreen part, so I don't anticipate any problems here. Please correct me if I'm wrong. shotwell 18:04, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
I removed the following material:
An episode of Law & Order: Special Victims Unit titled Cage was based on the Candace Newmaker case.
because it is inaccurate. The episode is "based" on the incident in Ohio regarding a foster family that kept children in cages. DPeterson talk 13:15, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
As an objective outsider, I'm confused. Did the therapists tell Jeane and Candace that they were going to be using pillows, hands, etc. to stop Candace getting out? As in, is that part of the usual rebirthing therapy, or were they lying, or did they not say anything at all? (the rebirthing article says nothing about this) Perhaps it would improve the article if you specified that. Eilicea 17:04, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
I am a professional Rebirthing therapist (a process which many are now calling Rebirthing-Breathwork, practitioner trainer and author, of international standing and some 12 years' experience. At no time during my own training, or in any of the training courses I have led, has any use of force against a client's will, or with any risk to a client's safety, been condoned. This position is echoed throughout the global rebirthing community and its published literature.
The therapists involved in Candace Newmaker's tragic death misappropriated the term Rebirthing in promoting their therapy, which in truth had no more resemblance to rebirthing than the conduct of Jack Kevorkian had to mainstream medicine, and should more accurately have been termed Attachment Therapy.
In recent years, many practitioners of rebirthing have switched to the term Rebirthing-Breathwork in order to escape adverse associations with the Candace Newmaker incident. However, what these practitioners practise is identical to Rebirthing as originally discovered by Leonard Orr et al.
It seems pretty clear that the therapists thought that what they were doing was 'rebirthing' even if it was not done 'correctly'. Did they themselves describe what they did as rebirthing? Fainites 22:13, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
The newspaper accounts of the incident use that term, as do the therapists and the group ACT. What is confusing is that rebirthing has two different meanings. SamDavidson 22:32, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
Could somebody explain the 'unlicensed foster parents' please? Do you have a national or state based system for licensing foster parents in the USA? Are foster parents required to have licenses? Fainites barley 07:41, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
We have a mixed system, not only by state but by payer and activity. Basically, if you are to be paid for giving "foster" (overnight, non-custodial) care, and the payer is the state, then you need a license, having had a background check, formal "training", and spotty regulation. But a parent can place a child overnight with whomever they want for however long they want. If they pay, it can sometimes run afoul of licensing requirements for "day care", but generally this is when there is more than a certain number of children in the home who are unrelated to the owner. Sometimes a business license is required, and zoning laws must be observed, but that is usually independent of the intended meaning of "licensing".
With attachment-therapy/parenting, the usual thing is to place a child in a "therapeutic foster home" while the child is attending therapy, both as a supplement to and a component of the therapy. Invariably, these "foster homes" are not licensed as such, but so what? Attachment therapy pointing out that their "foster home" where dreadful incidents happen to occur were "unlicensed" is like the kid who kills his parents and pleads for mercy on the basis that he is an orphan.
In the case of Candace, her death did not occur in or even near the foster home, so the fact that her "foster parents", who helped kill her, were unlicensed as caregivers, or as nurses, or as doctors, or as electricians had no bearing on their culpability. So why make a point of it?
Larry Sarner 14:27, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
OK. Got that. Over here you have local authority foster carers (most of them), Agency foster carers that Local Authority's use when they run out of their own and 'private foster carers' where things are a little more unregulated and controversial! Also, fairly uncommon. Never heard of therapists employing them though. Agree with you that it seems irrelevent here unless you are not allowed to be a foster parent in the USA without a license. We need to be carteful to take into account non USA readers who may have a different understanding of the terms. (The FP's were at the therapy session though weren't they?) Fainites barley 19:38, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
Candace newmaker
Story is linkd to a mysterious game called pertscope it is a game were you have to solve problems to get pet's you can also find a little girl called care you can get version A of care which is happy you can also get version B is average sad nor happy or you can get version C very sad and covers her face
p.s. you can not play this game because I searched every app store and I could not find it
.
Miss Newmaker claimed to have seen Candace adult other children and to set fires in the house but the nabers said that she was a good little girl. So was miss Newmarket lying to you and maby the nabers were lying to you
The two therapists who killed Candace Newmaker were both legally allowed to practice in Colorado. Connell Watkins had been an unlicensed psychotherapist registered with the State of Colorado, which allowed her to practice, which she had done for over fifteen years in Colorado. Julie Ponder was a marriage and family therapist in California, and under reciprocity agreements was allowed to y practice in Colorado. These are facts which came out in trial.
It was part of the scandal of this case that the little girl was (a) killed during what was claimed to be psychotherapy and (b) killed by persons legally allowed to practice. Additionally, part of the importance of the case was that these convictions were the first time that practicing therapists were criminally convicted for maltreatment during a therapy session, where the criminality did not involve sexual misconduct.
Thus, it is both inaccurate and misses the point to describe these therapists as "unlicensed". While some mental-health practitioners would like to place Newmaker's killers as outside the legal framework mental-health practice (licensing), that is only their point of view and is not supported by the facts of the matter.
I have accordingly improved the article to remove the words "unlicensed" as being wrong, POV and misleading to Wiki readers.
Larry Sarner 14:35, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
Thank you for the opportunity to establish this. The licensure facts as I've stated them are verifiable in Attachment Therapy on Trial (ISBN 027597675), pp. 44-45, which information was gleaned from trial transcripts. Their licensure status addressed the "reckless" component of the criminal charges. By convicting, the jury settled any question about their culpability deriving from their legal status and professional background. Larry Sarner 21:34, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
"... April 2000, Jeane Newmaker and Candace were on their way to a small clinic, Connell Watkins Associates, run by the unlicensed therapist Connell Watkins in her home in Evergreen, Colorado, not far from Denver. Under Colorado law, Watkins, a social worker,
"... it of her. Colorado law did not ask for Watkins to be licensed as a therapist, and even registration of unlicensed therapists with the state was not needed until 1988, when registration with the state Mental Health Grievance Board became a ..."
"... present at her death by suffocation (luring that therapy. This text examines the beliefs of the girl's mother and the unlicensed therapists, showing that the (heath, though Unintentional, ryas a logical outcome of this form of treatment. (continual on buck flap) ..."
JPotter 23:08, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
First, the dust cover is not a part of the source (it wasn't written by the authors) and is irrelevant and not usable as a reliable source. A case could be made that the reference made above was to the entire group of adults, and two of the five were unlicensed (the "therapeutic" foster parents), but they are not the subject of the present controversy.
Second, Ponder was licensed, and the fact of her licensure has been verified by the book. Continuing to refer to her as unlicensed is false and should stop. Ditto with Jeane Newmaker who was also licensed (as a nurse) and was being used during treatment as a "co-therapist".
Third, both on page 28 and 44 of the source, the meaning of Watkins's unlicensed status was discussed and placed into the proper context I described before. To take the term out of context and describe Watkins simply as unlicensed is to deliberately mislead and misinform the reader; her legal culpability and professional status was much more nuanced than that. I grant that extensive discussion of the meaning of being "registered" to practice psychotherapy in Colorado would be awkward in an encyclopedia, but if the term is used, then such a discussion should or must take place to properly inform the reader. It is avoided, however, by not mentioning it out of context, which is what I've been doing by removing the references (which are wrong in the case of Ponder in any case).
Fourth, mentioning the licensure twice (and indisputably erroneously in the case of Ponder) is gilding the lily, especially when I came up with a reasonable solution for the second mention (i.e., using the defendants' surnames) instead of characterizing them.
Fifth, the way is "unlicensed" is used in this article is unjustifiably POV. No justification for inclusion of this characterization has ever been tendered.
Larry Sarner 08:32, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
They were unlicensed and as a verifiable fact it is relevant. SamDavidson 17:50, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
DPeterson 23:48, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
An editor should be careful and specific about which edits are thought to be not NPOV before reverting another editor's hard work wholesale. For example, what is not NPOV about stating that Candace was killed at a home in Evergreen and not in Golden? Because it happens to be the geographical location of a lot of leading attachment therapists?
The therapists (plural) were not clearly unlicensed, as a reliable source has stated otherwise. It is POV to insist upon mistaken and misleading information be included, especially when the inclusion serves no good purpose.
It is a settled question that a reliable source about a topic can be listed in a reading section. Besides, I didn't list it in the first place.
The reversion is to a version which is, in my opinion, hopelessly inaccurate, biased and POV. Reversions to that version should stop.
Larry Sarner 08:53, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
Mr. Sarner, please stop your reverts. If you disagree, state that here and then follow the citations and consensus. Removing items from the Also see section, and other reverts you have made do not represent a NPOV. Please stop.
The references clearly state they were unlicensed, inlcuding the book you and your colleagues at Advocates for Children in Therapy wrote as cited by another editor in the previous section. DPeterson 12:10, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
David, much improved. JohnsonRon 17:59, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
Yes, I agree DPeterson 02:21, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
does somebody mind editing the text? somebody was obviously very bitter about the event when it was written.-- Nicole M. 00:19, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for editing it to NPOV! I didn't know how to word it properly so I just took what other articles on child abuse victims said and what the Rocky Mountain News editorials said about it. It wasn't my opinion. In reality, I'm neutral about this subject. The main reason I started this article was because there wasn't one yet, not because I knew about it. I wanted to find out more about it, and Wikipedia didn't have an article on it. Elle Bee 15:31, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
The changes made to the article are justified as follows:
1. Candace Newmaker was not accidentally suffocated, but was found by a jury to have been killed by two practitioners of attachment therapy.
2. While contemporarily popularized by the press as a "rebirthing", the session wherein Candace was killed does in fact bear no relation to the New Age "rebirthing" of William Emerson, et al., and it would be a service to Wikipedia readers not to continue that misconception. The "rebirthing" scenario was actually just the script for one day's treatment during a two-week attachment-therapy intensive.
3. Ponder was a licensed marriage and family therapist at the time she killed Candace, and she lost her license as a result. Watkins was indeed unlicensed as a psychotherapist, but that was not a salient fact leading to the jury's guilty verdict on the principal charges. Thus, it is inaccurate and/or misleading to identify them as unlicensed.
4. The "therapeutic foster parents" (St Clair and McDaniel) were not "ad hoc"; their role was an integral part of the overall intensive. It was completely irrelevant that they were "unlicensed", as licenses were not then required for "therapeutic foster parents", or even for anyone to "assist" in therapy.
5. Jeanne Newmaker was more than just in "attendance" at her daughter's death, she was an active participant as evidenced by her pleading guilty to abuse/neglect charges.
6. The 11 hours of videotapes of Candace's treatment were made over 5 days, mostly in the preceding week, not 10 days.
7. The mention of ACT assisting the prosecution is gratuitous, and has nothing to do with the events or surrounding the death. Moreover, it doesn't enlighten Wiki readers about anything; it doesn't even say what ACT did to assist.
8. The facts about Jeanne Newmaker's plea bargain, and about most other flagged statements, are reported in the first external link (and its webography). They are also reported in Attachment Therapy on Trial.
9. Candace's Law in Colorado is widely reported. North Carolina's version copies Colorado's and is found at http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/enactedlegislation/statutes/html/bysection/chapter_14/gs_14-401.21.html.
10. The "death video" has never been publicly shown outside the trial of Watkins and Ponder. The judge "sealed" them to prevent it.
11. Mention of ACT in the "See Also" section is unnecessary as a relevant link appears in "External Links".
12. The external links needed repair.
13. I discovered Candace's birth year was given incorrectly.
Larry Sarner 09:28, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
Source states unlicensed therapists. No source that "Therapeutic" foster parents were licensed by state...souce needed to assert that. DPeterson talk 13:12, 12 October 2006 (UTC) link to rebirthing is not relevant, given article there...agreed. ACT claims credit for helping in prosecution and in interesting and relevant link. DPeterson talk 13:20, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
"killed" seems to be a bit of a loaded term, implying intent. what does the jury finding actually say? StokerAce 13:22, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
"kill" is a neutral term that means, according to the American Heritage Dictionary ( http://www.bartleby.com/61/86/K0058600.html), "1a. To put to death. b. To deprive of life: The Black Death was a disease that killed millions. Notice that there is nothing saying that The Black Death intended to kill millions, just that it was the agent for depriving millions of their lives. "Kill" is a succinct, unambiguous term communicating exactly what happened to Candace. The only thing left to determine in using it here is how she was deprived of life.
The jury was instructed by the judge to make a determination, beyond a reasonable doubt, whether "the defendant, in the State of Colorado, at or about the date and place charged, recklessly, caused an injury to a child's life or health, or permitted a child to be unreasonably placed in a situation that posed a threat of injury to the child's life or health, or engaged in a continued pattern of conduct that resulted in lack of proper medical care, cruel punishment, mistreatment or an accumulation of injuries, which resulted in the death" of Candace Newmaker. They, of course, made this determination in the affirmative. In other words, "Candace was killed, during an Attachment Therapy session, by Connell Watkins and Julie Ponder at the former's home."
Given all this, what possible reasons could there be not to use the word killed in this context, except as an attempt either to obfuscate the facts or try to spin the matter in the defendants' favor?
By the way, the death certificate said the cause of death was "brainstem herniation/cerebral edema due to or as a consequence of cerebral anoxia due to or as a consequence of mechanical asphyxiation". In other words, suffocation.
I am restoring my wording in both cases.
Larry Sarner 16:56, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
"kill" is definately the wrong word here. despite official definitions, it imply the two suffocated candance with the intention to murder her. "died" is also not a sufficant word. the death was accidental and should be labeld as such-- Nicole M. 19:37, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
In this instance, consensus can be achieved, even if there is one who disagrees. Since you and your spouce are leaders of ACT and have a vested interest in this material, if it turns out you are the only one disagreeing, then I'd say consensus has been reached. SamDavidson 17:46, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
Aye-- Nicole M. 20:00, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
Nope. The paragraph immediately following the one in question makes the point about conviction already. The paragraph in question is trying to state the facts of the matter, i.e., what happened to Candace (she was killed) and who did it to her (Watkins and Ponder). What you want is a synonym for "killed", and I have an open mind on that, though I'm skeptical that you can come up with another word as accurate as the original. (Gosh, you got your poll, not that it makes any difference about the truth.) Larry Sarner 22:06, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
Heres some free common sense. Someone who has a heart attack and "Loses their life" dies. They were killed by a heart attack. Did the heart intend to kill the person its in? If someone is hit by a car, and loses their life, they are killed by the car. Did the car intend to kill the person it hit? (Im not interested in debating what the driver intended, its beside the point). Whether the driver intended to kill someone goes to the murder statement, but the car still took the life, i.e. killed the person. Dont change the word kill, its just absolute stupidity to debate over basic english. Kill means to take a life, whether its accidental or not. Murder means to kill someone intentionally. Premeditated means you thought about it, therefore its intentional. Kill means to take life away. Whether or not reckless means intention or not is also beside the point, the girl was still killed by someone else (Someone took her life, unless you have sources that say she died of natural causes). I learned that at about age 5. Squad'nLeedah 15:07, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Again, the mention of ACT is gratuitous and gives the Wiki reader nothing relevant to the case. Granted that there's a reliable source for the information (except for the contributor's spelling), but the source isn't a reason for including the information in the article? Without a good reason, it appears like advertising for ACT (which they didn't ask for) or is just there to drive readers to the Wiki article on ACT (the neutrality of which is in dispute). That certainly is not Wiki policy and a disservice to Wiki readers.
I am editing out the (long) mention of ACT until there is some relevance behind including it, and there is consensus about the relevance.
Larry Sarner 18:09, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
The relevance is that this advocacy group claims credit for this and the material is directly related to the subject of the article and is verifiable. How the conviction occurred, what went on, who was involved, are all relevant here. So, I will add back that section, which was in the article before you began your recent edits. However, if you feel strongly about it...let's begin a poll to see if your suggestion should replace what is in the article now. RalphLender talk 18:19, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
The only thing that is verifiable is that ACT makes a claim to have contributed to the prosecution. Other than that, the information content in this section is close to zero, and what little is there is unimportant with relation to the subject of this article. Of what possible enlightenment does this information have for a Wiki reader? The reasons given above underscore how unimportant the information is. Relevance isn't the only standard for inclusion; importance is another. Larry Sarner 07:29, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
why are you objecting to your groups's mention in this article? You don't object to citing your own book as a soucrce of credible information, so your group's statement that it was instrumental in securing the conviction...or at least helped, is clearly relevant. It shows the broad impact of the case and the broad range of interested parties. Given that you and your wife are leaders of this group, your comments on this asepct of the article are suspect. SamDavidson 17:49, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
The "See Also" section had only two references in it, and they were confusingly run together on the same line.
"Attachment Therapy" has an in-line link and so is unnecessary in the See Also section.
"Advocates for Children in Therapy" is not really relevant to the article as it stands, and there is no obvious reason in this article why any reader of it would be directed to the ACT article. Moreover, the ACT article's neutrality is in dispute and until that's resolved, the reference is questionable. Larry Sarner
It is a principle that helping make information easily accessible to the reader is encouraged. Many article list links from the article in the Also see section as this makes it very easy for the reader to find the related article. ACT played an important role in this case, by their admission, so a link to their site is very relevant. RalphLender talk 18:26, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
You cite your own book, which is an ACT publication. Furthermore, the group's involvement in the case is relevant, therefore a link to the article about your group is also relevant. SamDavidson 17:51, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
It will improve the article to provide citations for the staements I've tagged. verifiability is always helpful for the reader wishing to pursue more details. This is consistent with Wikipedia policy and practice. However, I am quite willing to setup a poll here if there is strong disagreement, since building consensus before changing an article is another important principle here. RalphLender talk 18:25, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
Citations need to be in the article not on talk pages.
The link goes to an article identifying the therapist as unlicensed; seems reasonable to me.
will edit accordingly RalphLender talk 19:28, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
The verifiable, reliable source is Attachment Therapy on Trial (pp. 60-61). St Clair and McDaniel were some of the staffers of Watkins and Associates with the task of being "therapeutic foster parents" for children going through Watkins's intensive. It was not an ad hoc thing, but a regular assignment. Larry Sarner 23:26, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
They were not licensed by the state as "therapeutic foster parents." However, if you can provide a source stating differently, please do so. SamDavidson 17:52, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
It is most salient whether or not they were state certified and trained foster parents. However, putting the term in quotes "self-described therapeutic foster parents" with the wording addition I have put, seems like a reasonable compromise. Yes? SamDavidson 17:13, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
I agree that self-described, without the quotes, would be best. If they were not certified or trained by the state or county, then they were "self-described," unless someone can provide a reference that is verifiable that they were, in fact, state trained foster parents. JohnsonRon 22:22, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
Regardless of what anyone calls them, if they not trained by the state they are not foster parents and and the proper term is "self-described." However if you have a verifiable source showing that they were so trained, please show that. Otherwise, stop bullying everyone and deleting material and make a constructive suggestion to see if it flys. JohnsonRon 11:47, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
There is no evidence cited that the "therapeutic foster parents" were licensed. Either provide a citation or that term should be deleted and change to "two other adults." The references to ACT are clearly relevant and should stay; especially since Sarner is citing his own material as a verifiable source and he, along with his spouce, are the two leaders of ACT. SamDavidson 17:42, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
Training is necesary to be a foster parent or a therapeutic foster parent. Cite a source that they were certified, otherwise, let's stick with the other term.
As a leader of ACT, as others have pointed out, you are not in a position to objectively comment on this. I see the reference and material as very relevant and interesting. DPeterson talk 01:08, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
You assisted in the prosecution, the article is about her death...the link is apparently clear to everyone here except you...and since you are clearly linked directly to the subject, that does raise a question about your objectivity. In this instance, I think the opinion of editors is clear. SamDavidson 17:18, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
'see below' SamDavidson 17:17, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
ACT's citation of its involvement in the case and it's Director, Sarner's use of his and ACT's book as a reference, support the inclusion of material about them and then a link to an article in Wikipedia about them for those who want more details. So, I "vote" for the material to stay. JohnsonRon 22:26, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
Maybe Sarner does not want his organization linked to this case? Regardless, he has a vested interest and a conflict of interest here, so other editors should decide. However, if he disagrees, maybe he should bring the issue to mediation. JohnsonRon 22:26, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
You are distorting and misconstruing what I wrote. All I am saying is that a consensus is present and your standing is questionable given your conflict of interest and vested interests. For this reason you should discuss changes here and either ask for a poll or mediation You are alone in your position. JohnsonRon 21:26, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
All you need to do is provide a verifiable and reliable source for your statements. Please stop being bully by deleting material. Try to follow Wikkipedia policy regarding resolving disputes by considering: taking a poll, engaging in mediation, arbitration, etc. Merely starting an edit and revert war, as you did on the Bowlby page, which cause you to be sanctioned, is not constructive. JohnsonRon 11:50, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Your own website states that you were actively involved. The link in the article leads to: 'It’s finally here! A book entirely devoted to critically examining the bizarre world of Attachment (Holding) Therapy, the most pernicious pseudoscience and dangerous quackery thriving in the United States today. Attachment Therapy on Trial: The Torture and Death of Candace Newmaker by Jean Mercer, Larry Sarner and Linda Rosa (Praeger; May 30, 2003). This book sells at a whopping $44.95, reflecting the wealth of insights provided by psychology professor Jean Mercer on nature of Attachment Therapy and AT parenting methods. All three authors assisted the prosecution in the “rebirthing” trial that resulted in historic 16-year sentences for therapists Connell Watkins and Julie Ponder.' SamDavidson 17:17, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
I think the Advocates for Children in Therapy reference and material is very relevant and informative. However, your involvement as a leader of ACT, author of the book, etc. mean you have vested interests here and a conflict of interest. As I said above, if you disagree, perhaps you should request mediation. I notice that you had some difficulties with Administrators regarding your edits to the Bowlby page. In the meantime, your comments here are suspect and it should be up to other editors to discuss this and build consensus. JohnsonRon 22:29, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
Except for you, there is a consensus here for keeping the material on ACT. Your role as a leader of ACT suggests a vested interest and conflict of interest regarding making changes about this group. The mediation effort on the Bowlby page worked just fine. A consensus occured and you were banned from continuing to make destructive changes...at least that's how I read the talk page there and the related Admin pages. The material is on this page, so it is up to you to explain why it should be deleted and to see if you can convince others to agree with you (building consensus it is called); not bully other editors by contining to unilaterally make changes that are unsupported. JohnsonRon 21:29, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
There you go again avoiding the salient issue that 'you are a leader of ACT and that this creates a vested interest' and conflict of interest. You are continuing to be disruptive by not seeking consensus and by being a bully here. I strongly urge you to follow Wikipedia policy and practice regarding resolving disputes: consider a poll, consider trying to build consensus and not bully other editors, consider mediation. JohnsonRon 11:44, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
All anyone needs to do to build real consensus about the inclusion of the ACT reference is satisfactorily explain what is the value of the information contained. So far, no one has made any attempt to do that. The failure to even make the attempt is telling. Per Wiki policy, the ACT reference should not be in the article; it could be restored if and when a satisfactory justification is made for inclusion. Larry Sarner 06:56, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
If you read the previous sections you will find lots off details on the materials reference. The following from above are examples:
The relevance is that this advocacy group claims credit for this and the material is directly related to the subject of the article and is verifiable. How the conviction occurred, what went on, who was involved, are all relevant here. So, I will add back that section, which was in the article before you began your recent edits. However, if you feel strongly about it...let's begin a poll to see if your suggestion should replace what is in the article now. RalphLendertalk 18:19, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
As a leader of ACT, I don't see why Sarner is objecting the the linkage here? He is one of the individual's taking credit for the result, according the the ACT website. SamDavidson 20:42, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
why are you objecting to your groups's mention in this article? You don't object to citing your own book as a soucrce of credible information, so your group's statement that it was instrumental in securing the conviction...or at least helped, is clearly relevant. It shows the broad impact of the case and the broad range of interested parties. Given that you and your wife are leaders of this group, your comments on this asepct of the article are suspect. SamDavidson 17:49, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
why are you objecting to your groups's mention in this article? You don't object to citing your own book as a soucrce of credible information, so your group's statement that it was instrumental in securing the conviction...or at least helped, is clearly relevant. It shows the broad impact of the case and the broad range of interested parties. Given that you and your wife are leaders of this group, your comments on this asepct of the article are suspect. SamDavidson 17:49, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
RalphLender talk 21:54, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Read addtional details above. A consensus exists that the material is relevant. Your objections do not have a sound basis and reflect your status as a leader of ACT, with a vested interest/conflict of interest in this regard.
RalphLender
talk 21:56, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
The relevant issue is that you are a leader of ACT and that this creates a vested interest and conflict of interest. Therefore your edits are suspect. Furthermore you continue to avoid the consensus that has been built here. You are continuing to be disruptive by not seeking consensus and by being a bully here. I strongly urge you to follow Wikipedia policy and practice regarding resolving disputes: consider a poll, consider trying to build consensus and not bully other editors, consider mediation. This has been suggested before you you continue to ignore that. This is one reason you were sanctioned from editing the Bowlby page. DPeterson talk 12:53, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Another controversy here is the application of the word "unlicensed" in reference to Watkins and Ponder. I have cited above reliable and verifiable (primary) sources that Ponder was licensed at all times relevant to this case. Per Wiki policy, this term should be removed as being false, and I have done so. Larry Sarner 22:44, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Still another controversy is the qualification of the term "'therapeutic foster parents'", and whether "self-described" is appropriate. I have shown above that it is not. However, I am willing to see the word "unlicensed" used as a qualifier instead, and have edited accordingly. Larry Sarner 22:44, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Finally, there are continual reverts of my editing as to whether this case has caused enduring controversy over "Attachment Therapy" or "rebirthing". There is no controversy over rebirthing (a New Age practice uninvolved with this case) and was conflated by the contemporary press and others. Evidence of this is in Wiki itself, where there is no rebirthing article, but there is one on Rebirthing-Breathwork. However, there is plenty of enduring controversy about Attachment Therapy -- and a Wiki article on the topic. Inserting "rebirthing" for "Attachment Therapy" is a great disservice to Wiki readers. Larry Sarner 22:44, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
I have made the changes suggested by Sarner...I hope that I have not overstepped here. If other editors disagree, please say so here and feel free to revert the article back to the version in place before my edits so we can have further discussion here and build a consensus. It did seem to me that Mr. Sarner's suggestions were consistent with the comments and opinions, as I read them, of other editors. What I did:
Again, if I've overstepped, please accept my apologies...I would like to see a consensus develop here. DPeterson talk 23:06, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
There has been a clear consensus on this page regarding language and materials to include. If you disagree, the appropriate action is to follow Wikipedia dispute resolution processes and not bully others by continually reverting pages. You might consider a poll...or presenting options here and seeking consensus....or mediation, as just a few appropriate steps. I know other's have suggested this and you have ignorerd it...but it would be good to consider following these steps...not following them is what got you banned on the Bolwlby article. RalphLender talk 13:42, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
You began a while ago making changes that did not represent consensus and several editors have raised this concern with you here and on other talk pages. All people are asking is that you start to follow Wikipedia dispute resolution proceese and procedures. RalphLender talk 21:27, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
You have not been slandered... the truth is:
'You have been blocked for 48 hours for personal attacks [3] and disruption, including the AfD which in my opinion is disrupting Wikipedia to prove a point. When you come back, you are to disengage with DPeterson; he has complained to me that he feels harassed and I don't blame him. I have looked through his contributions and I don't see any incivility coming from him. You may contest this block by placing {{unblock|(reason you should be unblocked)}} on your user talk page, which you can still edit. Mango juice talk 01:19, 23 July 2006 (UTC)'
From your talk page regarding your conduct on the Bowlby article. RalphLender talk 21:29, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
Well, you were blocked and that is relevant because, as I read the talk pages of both articles, I see that the same behavior that led to your being 'blocked' on the Bowlby article is occuring on this article. Several other editors have encouraged you to engage in constructive discussions and not just continue to revert to your unique POV. They have suggested you follow dispute resolution procedures, and I support that. MarkWood 13:33, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
I suggest the editors here open a request for comment to bring in fresh opinions. Also I'd like to suggest this essay. Respectfully, Durova 05:38, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
Rather than continuing to revert or make unacceptable edits, I suggest that you propose suggested changes here. Then other editors can comment, make further suggestions and we can achieve a consensus. JonesRD talk 21:05, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
That's one approach, but it sounds an awful lot like having to clear changes ahead of time, or "de facto" protection by non-administrator(s). Wiki is supposed to be an open encyclopedia. No one person or group has ownership of an article. I've seen it said on Wiki, "If you don't want what you write mercilessly edited, don't post it here". How about this approach, instead: If anyone disputes something that has been added by another editor, put next to it an inline dubious tag, or for larger material, a section warning,
This article's factual accuracy is
disputed. (March 2008) |
Then open up a section on this talk page and discuss it. The tag or warning stays up until a genuine consensus (or other dispute resolution) is reached. I think the templates for such things were created just for situations like this. Larry Sarner 23:17, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
See, there you go again being confrontational and not seeking common ground. 'The page represented a consensus developed in the past, after you were blocked for a while'. To build another consensus, you should participate in a colloaborative effort to build consensus and not continue to be uncivil and rever other's changes and ignore the consensus on this page. Your edits have been "mercilessly edited" because no one agrees with you. However, I am willing to engage with you in a reasoned dialogue focused on building agreement. Changes not accepted are reverted because you are pushing a very limited and unaccepted view. But, I think we can find agreement if you will follow Wikipedia practices regarding dispute resolution. DPeterson talk 23:55, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
As recommended by several other editors, you have been asked to stop reverting from the consensus version to your own. Since you've rejected taking a poll and various other Wikipedia dispute resolution procedures; let me suggest another option. Instead of merely reverting to your version and deleting material that others find acceptable, how about if you just 'ADD' what you think would improve the article first, get a consensus on that and then begin discussions about what you think should be chnaged or delted and build consensus for that? RalphLender talk 13:57, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
I don't see where you put your suggestions here for community review, as many editors have suggested in the spirit of adhering to Wikipedia dispute resolution policies. DPeterson talk 12:57, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
It would be better for Shotwell and Sarner together to just add material to the article and no delete material that many other editors on this page have found valuable and relevant. However, if you both feel material should be deleted or changed, why don't you just follow the suggestions, made 'MANY' times here that you put that into a separate section for comment by others and see if a consensus emerges. SamDavidson 15:04, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
No, actually it is a procedure for developing consensus in accord with Wikipedia policies. Engaging in a revert-war, as you are, is not in accord with Wikipedia policies. DPeterson talk 12:33, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to reiterate that this is a very well-documented case that had some enormous implications in the world of attachment-based therapy. We can all agree on that point. I think that the large majority of editors here can come to an agreement about most of the information regarding this case. Perhaps we could find some common ground if we focused on adding factual and npov information, copy-editing, standardizing reference format (footnotes or Harvard?), and so forth. I can standardize the references when I have some spare-time tonight.
If we started focusing on this sort of editing activity, we could really build a nice article with multiple points of view. The fact that some of the editors have very differing opinions on AT could really be a positive thing. Can we all agree to not revert each other's edits if the edits are for the purpose of adding credible information? If there is some issue with phrasing, then just rephrase it. This is, after all, a wiki!
Since I have questions that others could answer quite easily, I'll list them here. I'd like to see this information added to the article. I encourage anyone with additional questions to add them below mine in the same format. In this fashion we can start building up a list of missing information.
Shotwell's questions
shotwell 13:29, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Good Questions
RalphLender talk 14:06, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Mr. Sarner/Stoker Ace, Some of this is very old and may be irrelevant and may reflect your POV as a leader of ACT...or at least should be put into context with current information to provide balance and a NPOV. Good start, though. RalphLender talk 17:09, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Maybe. The investigation is ongoing regarding your status as a sockpuppet. After the results that investigation, we will know the facts. RalphLender talk 23:16, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Here's a thumbnail sketch about Watkins. She was clinical director at the Attachment Center at Evergreen (ACE), before going into private practice in Attachment Therapy, run out of her home in Evergreen (literally a few hundred feet away from ACE). She is an MSW, and was registered for many years as a psychotherapist in Colorado (that state has not required psychotherapists to be licensed since 1988). While CD at ACE, she and others founded ATTACh (the leading person in the founding was her boss at ACE, Foster Cline), and remained an active member for many years in the nineties. At the time of Candace's "treatment", Watkins had let her psychotherapist registration lapse (she claimed at trial that she had paid the required fee, but presented no documentary evidence), and also let her ATTACh membership lapse. The latter lapse has allowed ATTACh to claim that she was not one of them. On her disclosure forms to patients (include Newmaker), Watkins claimed that she was "working under" the LCSW license of Neil Feinberg, one of her associates. (Earlier, at ACE, she claimed to be "working under" the MD license of Cline.) Her departure from ACE allowed that center to claim that they had nothing to do with her; in truth, there were close ties. Watkins was widely known and praised in the AT community -- she either co-invented or popularized the "two-week intensive" which was, and is, a ubiquitous AT approach.
Bill Goble referred Jeanne Newmaker to Watkins. Goble was not a social worker, but licensed as a psychologist in North Carolina. At the 1999 ATTACh Conference (seven months before Candace's death), he gave Jeanne a RADQ (an unvalidated instrument developed at ACE and still owned by them) and scored it after she faxed it to him after the conference. He thus "diagnosed" Candace as a "severe" case of reactive attachment disorder and referred Jeanne specifically to Connell Watkins for treatment.
I've been gradually working up this story for the article.
Labeling Watkins as "unlicensed" is an AT red herring to distance themselves from the bad publicity surrounding the Newmaker case. In sum, Watkins was an experienced attachment therapist and a highly respected leader of the AT community. She was a Clinical Director at the leading AT facility in the world (ACE). Her private practice was successful, and she got referrals from licensed people who are also ATers. A licensed MFT assisted her with the Newmaker case. The leading ATer promoting AT "parenting", Nancy Thomas, who also was an associate with "Watkins & Associates", is also "unlicensed", and no one in AT makes a point of that! Indeed, here is a link where a leading ATer recommends Becker-Weidman's and Nancy Thomas's writings together.
Larry Sarner 18:51, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
The fact remains, she was unlicensed and this meets the Wikipedia standard for verifiability. Your last paragraph is irrelevant. What relevance does Nancy Thomas work have to this specific article...What relevance is it what a "leading ATer recommends" to this article? Please try to keep your comments focused, on point, and relevant to this article. In fact much of what you state here, while interesting, is not relevant and may not even be factual...This is the same material your alleged sockpuppet StokerAce referred to, I think, above. RalphLender talk 19:34, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
The fact remains that she was unlicensed and the last paragraph above is irrelevant, as I said before. Regarding the sockpuppet issue, as soon as that is finally resolved, we will know whether or not StokerAce and Sarner are one and the same. RalphLender talk 23:19, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
The information about her therapy leading up to her eventual death is also interesting:
So is the (highly disturbing) information describing her eventual death:
I feel that incorporating much of the above information into the article would give her "therapy" further some context. shotwell 13:12, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
In an effort to stop the revert war and start building a comprehensive article, I merged the two versions of the article that are being argued about. I also standardized the reference format and did some wikification. I'm in a rush (teach soon) and probably left redundant information or some other problem. Please check accordingly.
The edit history shows that the reasoning behind the constant reverting was something along the lines of "lacks important information". Since that information is now included, I see no reason to continue reverting. As for the mention of ACT, I think it is quite irrelevant, but I'm willing to ignore it while we build a better article. Maybe after a comprehensive article is written, the importance of this information will become more clear.
If someone doesn't like something in this article, then rephrase it, possibly request a citation, put a template on it, etc. All of those templates exist for a reason. shotwell 14:20, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
Some of the citations are from material prepared by Sarner, his wife Rosa, and their colleague Mercer, the three leaders of ACT. Whether their material is factual can be a question, given the fact that this advocacy group has a vested interest in the case and issues. So, their material may not be verifiable. What would be more NPOV would be a citation to either a part of the court transcript or a newspaper article. DPeterson talk 15:20, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
I understand the placement of citation requests on web materials, but I do not understand why they are placed on something that is already cited by a fairly reliable source. Is it that you don't trust the book? Is that you'd like more cross-referencing? It isn't that large of an issue because 1.)I like multiple sources 2.)I'm sure one readily exists. The main reason I ask is because if you don't trust the book as a reliable source, then we need to address the fact. I would point out, however, that it is published under a very respected publisher. shotwell 20:26, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
Perceived NPOV issues cannot be corrected unless an explanation is given. shotwell 20:26, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
The reason I'm making these edits in small steps is so that its very easy for everyone to see what is happening to the article. I personally hate a cluttered edit history. I will gladly stop editing like this if everyone agrees that it is unnecessary.
Also, I'd like to see more information regarding her two week intensive. It seems that she was being given meds and other treatments. What other treatments? Who was the prescribing doctor for these medicines? shotwell 22:21, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm glad to see some relenting on the revert war. I have left the ACT reference for the time being. It still reads like an advertisement and there is no justification made for the importance of this information to be included in an encyclopedic article. But I am willing to forego further deletions of that material to see if that importance is eventually demonstrated, in the same spirit as expressed by Shotwell.
I have many more edits to make, but I've made one already. In the "Effects" section, the enduring controversy deriving from this case does not surround "rebirthing". Except for the initial press coverage, the legislation in CO and NC, and the non-binding resolutions in Congress, no one is concerned with "rebirthing". All the attention of people concerned has focused in the last five years on Attachment Therapy. Note that the definitive book on the case is entitled, Attachment Therapy on Trial. So I have changed the reference in the article accordingly.
I've also eliminated the useless list of newspapers about the national and international coverage of this case. The papers cited were not representative of the extent of the coverage, and I don't think a truly representative list would be useful to Wiki readers. TMI.
Larry Sarner 22:41, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
First, he has a vested interest here as a leader, with his wife Rosa, of ACT, and as author of the book. Second, and more importantly, the book is flawed with factual errors and so cannot be relied upon as a source. the Candace Newmaker article need to be sourced by something other than the book written by the ACT leaders, Sarner, Mercer, and Rosa...There are many inaccuracies in that book:
Was it going to put "attachment therapy on trial?" Jensen's answer was simple and straight-forward. "No!"
He intended on pursuing a very narrow prosecution to prove that Watkins and Ponder were responsible under the terms of the state's child abuse / homicide statute for the death of Candace Newmaker. Child abuse/homicide is the most serious felony in the Colorado state criminal code.
Thus, with the title, the authors are fraudulenty trying to assert something which simply is not true. The only part of the Newmaker trial that was concerned with the value of Attachment Therapy was the defense. And, unfortunately, that was because of the existence of a videotape which showed Watkins and Ponder "in the act." The defense had no other alternative than to assert that it was simply a mistake of the therapy. Certainly, if the videotape did not exist, the defense would have probably have opted for a different defensive strategy.
And, unfortunately, the book does have several factual errors ... such as the notation by Mr. Patterson. A check with the local Midvale, Utah police department shows Krystal's date of birth as December 7, 1991, and her date of death as July 7, 1995, making her three years, eight months old at her death.
However, Mr. Patterson was incorrect in his statement about the spelling of Newmaker's name. It is correctly spelled J-E-A-N-E.
It was also ironic that when I had lunch with Linda Rosa one day during the trial, that when I asked her about her thoughts on the Jeannie Warren case in Texas with "rage-reduction therapy," she said that she had never heard of it!
Yet, Larry Sarner and his wife / co-author Linda Rosa would leave the courtroom early every day to be ready to give sound bites to the Denver TV news media - about something that they both knew little, if anything about, at that time.
This book seems to reflect the same type of continuing mentality.
Another quote: While the authors arrogantly look down upon "the journalistic practice that has been called pseudosymmetry" (page 6), they have effectively also ignored another journalistic practice: accuracy. It is totally amazing that they contradict themselves on very basic information: page 5: "...Krystal Tibbets, a 4-year-old Utah child..." page 243: "...Krystal Tibbets, who died at the age of 3 in 1996."
What is totally mind-boggling is the arrogant presumption to change or deliberately misspell the name of one of the major historical figures: adoptive mother Jeanne Newmaker.
Apparently the authors did not like the spelling of her name, so they changed it to "Jeane" in the book.
If you can't get even the most minor of facts correct, then most certainly one should not place any credibility in the authors for anything else.
Ignore ... avoid this book, which is riddled with arrogant, ignorant errors and not to be depended upon for any type of credible statement. If in a library, please remove it!
BOTH FROM: http://www.amazon.ca/Attachment-Therapy-Trial-Torture-Newmaker/dp/0275976750/ref=sr_11_1/702-4433484-4142426 serveral others there too
So, using this book as a source of reliable information on the just does not meet the Wikipedia verifiable standard, I think
Regarding the Neutrality tag....Please let that stay. Since so much of this article is written by Sarner and ACT and since they have this vested interest in the case (selling their book for example), I have serious questions about how the facts are being presented. I see a clear POV here.
JohnsonRon 23:00, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
Actually the reviews are quite relevant as one or more of the reviewers was a reporter who followed the story quite closely and published on it. The article shows bias in its inclusion of irrelvant information...what is the point of detailing the affiliations of Gobel, or example? There are so many other POV statements... The status of the book's publisher's status is a matter of opinion,but I see your view is the same as Sarner's on this point. Your statemnt regarding, "some attachment therapists" on amazon further delineates your stance vis-a-vis this article, POV, and Sarner. JohnsonRon 00:39, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
For the items that are poorly sourced, it would be appropriate to remove them, if there is agreement. So, we should have a poll regarding the deleting of statements without credible sources. JohnsonRon 00:41, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
Delete such Material
Do not delete such material
This is a very unfortunate development. I was under the impression that you were not going to engage in such behaviors. I really encourage you to add citation requests where you'd like further citations. I can provide loads of references considering that I have full access to tools such as LexisNexis and EBSCOhost. I'm also sure that Sarner could provide further references given that he literally wrote the book on this subject. shotwell 00:54, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
Should be left in but balanced with opposing views. StokerAce 02:20, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
The policy:
The Sarner/ACT book is not a reliable source DPeterson talk 05:11, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
See above...it's all explained there. RalphLender talk 20:09, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
The following quote is from a reliable newsreporter and meets the verifiable standard: Furhtermore Sarner and ACT have a financial stake in the issue and so given these two fact: factual errors in the book and conflict of interest, the book is not reliable.
Ever since I first read the title of this book I was somewhat concerned. As part of the Newmaker trial coverage for a national news service bureau in Denver, one day during the trial while coming out for lunch I cornered lead prosecutor Steve Jensen and asked him what his prosecution was based on.
Was it going to put "attachment therapy on trial?" Jensen's answer was simple and straight-forward. "No!"
He intended on pursuing a very narrow prosecution to prove that Watkins and Ponder were responsible under the terms of the state's child abuse / homicide statute for the death of Candace Newmaker. Child abuse/homicide is the most serious felony in the Colorado state criminal code.
Thus, with the title, the authors are fraudulenty trying to assert something which simply is not true. The only part of the Newmaker trial that was concerned with the value of Attachment Therapy was the defense. And, unfortunately, that was because of the existence of a videotape which showed Watkins and Ponder "in the act." The defense had no other alternative than to assert that it was simply a mistake of the therapy. Certainly, if the videotape did not exist, the defense would have probably have opted for a different defensive strategy.
And, unfortunately, the book does have several factual errors ... such as the notation by Mr. Patterson. A check with the local Midvale, Utah police department shows Krystal's date of birth as December 7, 1991, and her date of death as July 7, 1995, making her three years, eight months old at her death.
However, Mr. Patterson was incorrect in his statement about the spelling of Newmaker's name. It is correctly spelled J-E-A-N-E.
It was also ironic that when I had lunch with Linda Rosa one day during the trial, that when I asked her about her thoughts on the Jeannie Warren case in Texas with "rage-reduction therapy," she said that she had never heard of it!
Yet, Larry Sarner and his wife / co-author Linda Rosa would leave the courtroom early every day to be ready to give sound bites to the Denver TV news media - about something that they both knew little, if anything about, at that time.
This book seems to reflect the same type of continuing mentality.
DPeterson talk 22:01, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
There are many other inaccuracies and misstatements in the book, so, no, these re not trivial...these are major flaws in a text. DPeterson talk 22:06, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
You are acting as if the following are not substantial errors:
I don't know if the publisher is reputable or not...but, clearly, at a minimum, their fact checking department is deficient. For more details and other problmes with the book, see the previous section. It is clear the book has factual errors...maybe others not yet detected, therefore the reliability of the text is in question. Therefore, lets use reliable and non-disputed material that is neutral and without clear conflicts of interest for sources on this article. DPeterson talk 22:31, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
Still no citations provided. I think it is time to remove the unsourced/unsupported sections. RalphLender talk 14:40, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
The book contains 'significant factual errors' and there is the issue of the blatent conflict of interest here. Sarner, Mercer, Rosa, and their group ACT, have a financial stake in the matter on several fronts. If more reliable sources can be found, then that is the solution. RalphLender talk 23:45, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
Please don't misrepresent the errors in the book:
Ever since I first read the title of this book I was somewhat concerned. As part of the Newmaker trial coverage for a national news service bureau in Denver, one day during the trial while coming out for lunch I cornered lead prosecutor Steve Jensen and asked him what his prosecution was based on.
Was it going to put "attachment therapy on trial?" Jensen's answer was simple and straight-forward. "No!"
He intended on pursuing a very narrow prosecution to prove that Watkins and Ponder were responsible under the terms of the state's child abuse / homicide statute for the death of Candace Newmaker. Child abuse/homicide is the most serious felony in the Colorado state criminal code.
Thus, with the title, the authors are fraudulenty trying to assert something which simply is not true. This, and other, errors and misrepresentations are serious flaws here. Therefore we cannot rely on the book for reliable facts. The statement made about financial interests is clear to me and to anyone who reads it. They make money from the sale of their book, their organization seeks donations and dues and contributions and makes money from the book. DPeterson talk 01:09, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
The writer is a reporter who has extensively reported on the events. This raises concerns about the writer's bias. Furthermore, since the book was written by the leaders of an advocacy group with a vested interest in the outcome of the case...that was the basis for their book and they take credit for the outcome on their website, and they try to garner financial support for their group, it just taints this as a reliable source. If there are not other sources for the statements other than their statements, then I believe the article's statements should be removed as not reliable or verifiable and as only representing the polemics of an advocacy group. So, the simple solution here is just put other references that are reliable and verifiable and, so, in accord with Wikipedia policy, practice, and standards. DPeterson talk 03:03, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
The quote is above and it is written by a legit news reporter. The writer is a reporter who has extensively reported on the events. This raises concerns about the writer's bias. Furthermore, since the book was written by the leaders of an advocacy group with a vested interest in the outcome of the case...that was the basis for their book and they take credit for the outcome on their website, and they try to garner financial support for their group, it just taints this as a reliable source. If there are not other sources for the statements other than their statements, then I believe the article's statements should be removed as not reliable or verifiable and as only representing the polemics of an advocacy group. So, the simple solution here is just put other references that are reliable and verifiable and, so, in accord with Wikipedia policy, practice, and standards. DPeterson talk 11:20, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
Just to set the record straight, all this is humbug. While there are lots of little errors in Attachment Therapy on Trial, mostly typographical in nature, there is only one of the above that can be conceded: we did mistakenly call Krystal Tibbets a 4-year-old in the introduction (but correctly identified her age later in the book). We did not misspell Jeane Newmaker's name. We did not say that the prosecution was putting AT on trial, but it was the point of our book that AT was nevertheless under scrutiny (metaphorically "on trial") because of this case. One of the co-authors was in the courtroom for every minute of the 3-week trial, from jury selection to verdict, and later the sentencing. (The author of the review was frequently absent, and not even there for the verdict, and didn't return for the sentencing.) Linda may not have heard of the Jeannie Warren case at the time of the trial, but so what, she (and I) discovered it soon enough afterwards (though it had no real bearing on this trial, anyway). So where are the articles of impeachment against the book? The writer of the review, on the other hand, is not "a reporter who has extensively reported on the events"; just try to find anything he has written about this case or anything else. Whether he can correctly be called a "legit news reporter" is a matter of opinion. Finally, we have never, ever, taken credit for the outcome of the actual trial, on our website or anywhere else, though we have met all or nearly all of the people -- dozens of them -- who can be given credit for it, and we were honored to be of at least some assistance to them along the way. There is certainly nothing mentioned here that should give anyone pause in relying upon the contents of Attachment Therapy on Trial. Larry Sarner 07:12, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
The first article clearly states within the first few paragraphs that both therapists were unlicensed. JohnsonRon 23:24, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
Someone with the username Billgoble has made a few edits to the article. We need to carefully examine the claims made about people not immediately related to this case, possibly remove their names, and if that is not possible, provide a load of references on such claims. We can convey the essential meaning of the paragraphs about Goble and Thomas (Watkin's was a recommended by the AT community) without naming people. This is a matter of WP:BLP. We need to err strongly on the side of caution when it comes to such things. I'm going to remove some names for now. shotwell 21:49, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
I concur. thanks for bringing that up shotwell.-- Nicole M. 21:59, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
I have a suggestion for how to deal with the issue of mentioning ACT's role. It does look odd to have ACT there all by itself, but how about including a larger section on the prosecution (i.e. the Colorado state attorneys, etc.), and in that section mention ACT's role. StokerAce 01:23, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
I think it fits nicely in the current section. DPeterson talk 05:09, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
The poll above seems to lead to the conclusion that it maybe time for the unsourced material to be deleted. No appropriate citations have been provided. In the interests of keeping it all clear, I'd suggest deleting the material and putting it in a separate section, so that if some one can produce verifiable and reliable soucrces, it will be easy to replace the deleted paragraph(s). RalphLender talk 12:58, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
I've deleted the following material from the article....if reliable and factually accurate references can be provided, then I support replacing the material at that time. SamDavidson 14:40, 3 November 2006 (UTC) The policy:
'REMOVED FROM ARTICLE'
By October, Jeane Newmaker was saying that there was no discernible improvement in Candace's behavior. At the suggestion of the attachment therapists in Guilford, Jeanne Newmaker attended the annual conference of the Association for Treatment and Training of Attachment in Children (ATTACh), that year being held in Alexandria, Virginia. She approached two prominent figures in the attachment therapy community, one being a therapeutic foster parent from Colorado who is a frequent speaker at ATTACh conferences and elsewhere. citation needed
Ms. Newmaker was given a copy of the Randolph Attachment Disorder Questionnaire (RADQ) by one of the therapists she approached, along with instructions to facsimile her responses after the conference. The RADQ is a parental checklist about a child's behavior used in the attachment community, but it is an unvalidated diagnostic tool. citation needed
Through 1999, Jeane Newmaker was attending workshops, conferences, and support groups associated with Attachment Therapy. She was told that Candace had a childhood disorder called Reactive Attachment Disorder (RAD) and took Candace to a center fifty miles away in Guilford, North Carolina for weekly treatments by a practitioner of Attachment Therapy. citation needed
After discussions with Jeane and review of the the RADQ, this therapist recommended Connell Watkins & Associates to Jeane. Connell Watkins was a founding member of ATTACh, but no longer maintained a membership in the organization and was not licensed at the time, although she had been in the past. This recommendation echoed one made by another member of the attachment-therapy community who was an associate of Ms. Watkins
citation needed
Watkins later explained the adults' refusal to release Candace on two grounds. First, they believed the girl could breathe through the sheet and saw her speech and yells as evidence of her breathing. Second, they saw all of Candace's protestations as not genuine, as attempts to manipulate the adults into releasing her. The first of these two was not only refuted by her death, but did not take into account the pillows used to contain her. Also, if the adults had medical training, they would have realized that a person can speak and yell while unable to get oxygen. As to the second matter about viewing Candace's claims as attempts to deceive the adults into letting her go, this is entirely consistent with Attachment Therapy philosophy and practice -- children in treatment are regarded as liars and manipulators, and they must be disregarded or the therapy will fail. Thus, with the adults prepared and determined to disbelieve her distress, nothing Candace could have said would have secured her escape from confinement in a suffocating sheet. The session went on for over an hour, while previous sessions with other children using the same "rebirthing" script, had lasted less than five minutes. citation needed
It appears the the disputes regarding this page have again been settled by mediation and the section without sources will remain deleted unless/untill reliable and verifiable citations are found. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Mediation_Cabal/Cases/2006-10-07_Advocates_for_Children_in_Therapy JohnsonRon 20:43, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
It appears that the dispute has been resolved and the mediation case can be closed with the result being the article as is. That is a fine resolution that appears to represent consensus. JonesRD talk 21:21, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
There was a typo in the above title (Watkins -> Watkins'). I also removed the "in Evergreen, Colorado" because it is just mentioned below. I think I'm the one who added the Evergreen part, so I don't anticipate any problems here. Please correct me if I'm wrong. shotwell 18:04, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
I removed the following material:
An episode of Law & Order: Special Victims Unit titled Cage was based on the Candace Newmaker case.
because it is inaccurate. The episode is "based" on the incident in Ohio regarding a foster family that kept children in cages. DPeterson talk 13:15, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
As an objective outsider, I'm confused. Did the therapists tell Jeane and Candace that they were going to be using pillows, hands, etc. to stop Candace getting out? As in, is that part of the usual rebirthing therapy, or were they lying, or did they not say anything at all? (the rebirthing article says nothing about this) Perhaps it would improve the article if you specified that. Eilicea 17:04, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
I am a professional Rebirthing therapist (a process which many are now calling Rebirthing-Breathwork, practitioner trainer and author, of international standing and some 12 years' experience. At no time during my own training, or in any of the training courses I have led, has any use of force against a client's will, or with any risk to a client's safety, been condoned. This position is echoed throughout the global rebirthing community and its published literature.
The therapists involved in Candace Newmaker's tragic death misappropriated the term Rebirthing in promoting their therapy, which in truth had no more resemblance to rebirthing than the conduct of Jack Kevorkian had to mainstream medicine, and should more accurately have been termed Attachment Therapy.
In recent years, many practitioners of rebirthing have switched to the term Rebirthing-Breathwork in order to escape adverse associations with the Candace Newmaker incident. However, what these practitioners practise is identical to Rebirthing as originally discovered by Leonard Orr et al.
It seems pretty clear that the therapists thought that what they were doing was 'rebirthing' even if it was not done 'correctly'. Did they themselves describe what they did as rebirthing? Fainites 22:13, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
The newspaper accounts of the incident use that term, as do the therapists and the group ACT. What is confusing is that rebirthing has two different meanings. SamDavidson 22:32, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
Could somebody explain the 'unlicensed foster parents' please? Do you have a national or state based system for licensing foster parents in the USA? Are foster parents required to have licenses? Fainites barley 07:41, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
We have a mixed system, not only by state but by payer and activity. Basically, if you are to be paid for giving "foster" (overnight, non-custodial) care, and the payer is the state, then you need a license, having had a background check, formal "training", and spotty regulation. But a parent can place a child overnight with whomever they want for however long they want. If they pay, it can sometimes run afoul of licensing requirements for "day care", but generally this is when there is more than a certain number of children in the home who are unrelated to the owner. Sometimes a business license is required, and zoning laws must be observed, but that is usually independent of the intended meaning of "licensing".
With attachment-therapy/parenting, the usual thing is to place a child in a "therapeutic foster home" while the child is attending therapy, both as a supplement to and a component of the therapy. Invariably, these "foster homes" are not licensed as such, but so what? Attachment therapy pointing out that their "foster home" where dreadful incidents happen to occur were "unlicensed" is like the kid who kills his parents and pleads for mercy on the basis that he is an orphan.
In the case of Candace, her death did not occur in or even near the foster home, so the fact that her "foster parents", who helped kill her, were unlicensed as caregivers, or as nurses, or as doctors, or as electricians had no bearing on their culpability. So why make a point of it?
Larry Sarner 14:27, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
OK. Got that. Over here you have local authority foster carers (most of them), Agency foster carers that Local Authority's use when they run out of their own and 'private foster carers' where things are a little more unregulated and controversial! Also, fairly uncommon. Never heard of therapists employing them though. Agree with you that it seems irrelevent here unless you are not allowed to be a foster parent in the USA without a license. We need to be carteful to take into account non USA readers who may have a different understanding of the terms. (The FP's were at the therapy session though weren't they?) Fainites barley 19:38, 6 September 2007 (UTC)