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Avilyn, let's avoid an edit war. You removed my entry that provided some background for the Israeli attack on the villages. Without this information the reader is led to mistakenly believe that Israel arbitrary decided to attack those villages just for the heck of it, when any serious student of the region recent history knows this is just not true. Besides, the section on international law is hardly suitable for an article on a park.
I will restore the entry you deleted and I am respectfully asking you to remove the international law entry and replace it by a suitable external reference. Again, this is an article on a park, not a propaganda piece.
Danielcohn 07:01, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Daniel I would be more than happy to avoid an edit war with you. Perhaps we can come to an agreement. I removed the section on 1967 because the sentences were incomplete and grammatically problemtic. Now that you have reinserted them in a way that is more comprehensible I have no problems with leaving the section as is. I must however insist that "occupation" remains "occupation" as opposed to "administration", which is factually incorrect (see International Law, United Nations resolutions, as well as statements by current and previous Israeli governments) as well as terribly misleading to the reader. The section on international law must also remain given its relevance to the topic as the site of a war crime. I am confident that readers would be interested in this.
I'm sorry but I fail to see how an international law section is relevant to a site on a **PARK**. A detailed and balanced coveragae of the events of the 1967 war, including refugee and legal issues, belongs in an article about the war or about the refugee crisis, not in a site about a park! Can we agree on that? Danielcohn 09:34, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
Nothing about the 1967 war has anything to do with an article on a park. I agree that it's ok to have a brief summary of the destruction of the three villages in this article, but it should not contain in-depth info about the villages because the article isn't about them, it's about the Canada Park. I will remove most of the article's current 'content' if no good reason is raised for why it should be in the article. -- Ynhockey ( Talk) 17:10, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
The article is about the park not about the villages please read carefully Wikipedia policies and don't restore POV version of the article again|The article is about the park not about the villages please read carefully Wikipedia policies and don't restore POV version of the article again|Thank you.}}-- Shrike 15:50, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
(unindent)The discussion never involved mass-removal of everything controversial. And whether or not the sources are reliable, there should be some mention of the controversy on the page, not a complete absolution. -- VegitaU 20:46, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
I agree, but what you did was delete everything having to do with that issue. If you felt that a "mention" of it should be in the article, why did you erase everything? -- VegitaU 20:57, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
I don't see any sources at all for the park. -- VegitaU 21:06, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
It takes about fifteen seconds of research to discover that, yes, Canada Park is built on the remains of razed Palestinian villages, and yes, that's a highly salient fact if not the most salient fact about the entire park. I'm disgusted with those editors who blithely proclaim, "oh, it's only a park, stop trying to push Palestinian claims into the article". Shall we bulldoze Pittsburgh, rename it "Indonesia Park", and then declare that it's "only a park", therefore the history doesn't matter? Shame. Eleland 20:35, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
How should this article discuss the former inhabitants of the area?
just watch this to get a real opinion about this warcrime. http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.com/2007/12/how-israels-apartheid-works-example-of.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.228.69.84 ( talk) 22:42, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
I have split off the controversial item about prior Palestinian use and Israeli capture of the land into its own section. In my opinion, this material belongs in a separate section and not in the lead. It may appear that I'm trying to introduce a pro-Israel bias, but really I'm just trying to put the material in its proper place, not to remove any of it from view. I hope that's okay. Yechiel ( Shalom) 22:01, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
The article should describe where the park is: Israel-pre-1967, West-Bank, or East-Jerusalem. - DePiep ( talk) 20:05, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
not about what was there before. This artcle is about 75% about that right now, and i think that there should be more mention of access, activities and the uses of the park as opposed to whatever villages might have been there before. There is no question that the neutrality of this article was compromised when it starts talking about the villages. If you think that this article can accurately describe the park while talking about this, then you're mistaken. Make up an article about the displaced villages if you like, but take this info out.
Maximum927 ( talk) 14:35, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
It can't be both 7,000 dunams and 1,275 dunams. One of the sources given for 1,275 even says "32,000 hectares" which is 320,000 dunams! Zero talk 12:56, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
The green area on the map, which comes from a national park map I found on the internet, measures 8,800 dunams as near as I can measure it. Zero talk 13:28, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
The majority of this Talk page's "complaints/New Topics opened" are from people who, like me, saw with a "dry reading" of Canada Park that a certain political faction is attempting to politicize this article with a one-sided argument and telling "half-truths," making the lede & First Section focus too much on recent events rather than the archaeology contained within the park. (WP already has other articles for those "recent events" and I don't mind if Canada Park links to those, as my past edits show, so long as those articles and/or Canada Park balance and show the "background" (to quote another complaint in this Talk page) for why IDF counter-attacked & razed these villages, etc, as I linked to even a United Nations report showing Latrun (Canada Park's hilltop) was being used to shell UN convoys, and to shell Israeli civilians in the valley, for the purpose of blockading (starving Jews out of) Jerusalem... telling half-truths as people on this page have pointed out it makes it seem Israel "arbitrarily" depopulated these villages: the full history...full truths [balance], not half-truths [POV-pushing].)
Additionally, as an archaeologist, I think the ancient History of what makes this Archaeology Park important should be told in this article, if we keep the "History" section. Before I even saw this Talk page (and hadn't seen that there's a 1RR protection on it, as can be seen by my last edit in "History" page), I didn't know that so many others (on this Talk page) had noticed the same bias that I noticed. Three options:
1. The page as I found it and as most of this Talk page's New Topics complained about: diff
2. Fuller history (because this IS an Archaeology' Park, ancient history is the most relevant -- although I don't object to the modern history so long as it's balanced, in a way that addresses the majority of complaints on this webpage, e.g. 1 edit that I tried is as follows: diff or even better (toning myself down) diff and was deleted within hours by username zero0000 who has a long history of POV'ed edits & disputes [1], appears to no longer have privileges he once enjoyed {though I haven't investigated the next one fully, so pls forgive me if this is no longer the case; I just don't see any 'badges' etc on his userpage: [2]}, etc).
3. We could delete the whole history section & rely instead upon the "See also" links near the end of the article, which do contain the region's full history, both ancient & modern, as these "See also" articles contain the info and much better-written & less POV that this ( Canada Park's) "History section, such as (chronologically): --See also--
...and do note that I was willing to include "Yalo" (and/or a "History" section that does include anti-Israel sources; if we include a "History" section [despite that it's redundant since other WP articles cover the topic: Ayalon/ Latrun/ Yalo articles cover it all, and in a less POV way than this article's one-sided "History"] which shows that I'm not trying to hide the history of the Palestinian ruins on this site (the way that SEVERAL ppl besides me noticed that one or more ppl are revrting, over years as this Talk page shows, any attempts to show that the IDF didn't depopulate the village "arbitrarily" (to quote 1 person's complaint on this Talk page), but it's just not appropriate to politicise an Archaeological Park: this region has a long (millennia-old) history of being a point of strategic high-ground which defends the (Mediterranean) seaborne path up to Jerusalem...which is the main reason why Canada Park contains ruins of old forts (a main reason why it is even a Park today!), and its long-term strategic value is indeed still relevant (noteworthy in a WP article) even in a "Modern history" section discussing the recent (1948 & 67) history. 72.183.52.92 ( talk) 18:32, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
I was amazed by this number that semms very high to me. So I quickly checked the population of each village and I found that Yalo is claimed to have 16,000 unhabitants in 1961. Does someone know the source of this ? This still seems extremely high for me. I don't see 16,000 people leaving there... It is a city, not a village... The article about Yalo also talks about 593 hours that was destroyed. That would make more than 25 people per house as an average. Pluto2012 ( talk) 07:38, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
72.183.52.92 ( talk) 16:17, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
72.183.52.92 ( talk) 03:48, 21 April 2014 (UTC)
References
Regarding your to Canada Park:
Pluto2012 stated "there are several interesting edits" in 72.183.52.92's edits, and cited one line, "territory is claimed by Israel", as the reason to revert the entire set of edits. Following WP:Don't throw out the baby with the bath water, I restored the reverted edits, since it sounded like the edit was mostly good, but had one problem. I was in the process of trying to find and remove the line that Pluto2012 complained about when you made your edit, reverting my revert of Pluto2012's edit within six minutes.
If you feel that 72.183.52.92's edits were more than 50% junk, then you made the right call in reverting my reversion. However, if you feel that more than half of his edit was worthwhile, I think it would be better to just remove the sections which you find disagreeable, and leave any sections that you feel are valuable or worthwhile contributions to the article.
I'm not familiar with this subject at all, but the constant edit warring on that page is sending me messages every time the page is relinked to a page I created. Since you seem to have a stronger opinion about the subject, I'll trust that you know more than I do about the subject and have better judgement about what is accurate, impartial, and reliable information, etc. However, I would appreciate it if you and the rest of the people involved in the edit war could please talk things out and try to find some kind of compromise, rather than feverishly making and unmaking edits. Thank you. - NorsemanII ( talk) 19:57, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
There were indeed 6 assaults on Latrun :
Anita Shapira talks about 6 operation, I don't know which one Benny Morris, who talks about 5 operations, forgot. Anyway it doesn't matter at all.
Pluto2012 ( talk) 11:29, 20 April 2014 (UTC)
Please restrict this section to the annexation issue and write about other issues in other sections.
Two sentences in the article claim that Israel either annexed the Latrun salient (which includes a fraction of Canada Park) or "claimed to have annexed" it. As far as I can tell, no source at all has been provided for "Israel claims to have annexed" but only a Jerusalem Post journalist making that claim [4]. Said journalist also quotes some unnamed official claiming that "All peace plans have always put Latrun inside Israel", which is false: every Israeli offer has included Israeli annexation of the salient but this has always been opposed by the Palestinians (see any account of the Camp David meetings in 2000, for example). In contradiction to that source's claim that "Israel annexed the Latrun salient ... soon after the Six Day War", a historical article in Haaretz said "The enclave has yet to be annexed" [5]. Faced with two newspaper articles making opposite claims, we certainly can't insert one claim and ignore the other. We have to mention either or both. Better would be to find a stronger source, such as an academic article, that establishes the facts with citation of original documents. I have found a few books that make each claim but none give any details or cite evidence. I also looked in several book-length accounts of the occupation starting in 1967, including the negotiations and discussions over the following decades, and did not find any mention of the Latrun salient being annexed, though plenty of proposals for that, eg. in the Allon Plan. Zero talk 11:42, 20 April 2014 (UTC)
and you're only considering the 1st half of that: whilst I already shared your view that citing Pressman shows the fact Arafat didn't accept that there has already been an annexation of Latrun which is legal (however, we don't need to prove or disprove Arafat's or even the UN's approval to meet the definition of an "annexation"; see below sub-section), but what I was pointing out on 21 April 04:23 (when I quoted the 2nd half of the last blockquote) is that page 16-18 of Pressman ADDS support to what Norseman and I both had written in the lede (which I sourced from jpost...but now Pressman also ADDS support, in addition to jpost, to the following); here is what I wrote into the lede, which the above blockquote (from Pressman) SUPPORTS:"Israel, however, omits No Man's Land (50 sq km near Latrun ... The Palestinian figure included Israeli annexation of...parts of the Latrun salient"
i.e. you only showed that Arafat disagreed whether Latrun should be counted toward the "percentage" (and to that, I've already agreed: see "percentage" in what I wrote yesterday) but what I wanted you to notice yesterday is that what Arafat & Israel DID AGREE on is that Latrun's Final Status = part of Israel [i.e. "ANNEXED" as Norseman & I claimed in the lede], instead of Latrun being within the new Palestinian state.)"Israeli and Palestinian negotiators have agreed ...during all stages of the Peace Process, [that Latrun] would become [NOTE: future tense here...whereas you were talking about citing Pressman to show that Arafat in the 1990's wasn't accepting that Israel had "already"--past tense--annexed Latrun...see the word "already" in boldtext, a few lines above this] incorporated into Israel"
I was saying that in THIS regard, your own source (Pressman) agrees with jpost and me (that Abbas is "reversing" what he agreed to earlier, in the 1990's part of the Peace Process which Pressman's paper covers); Pressman doesn't fully confirm what Norseman and I added to the lede [but jpost does FULLY support what Norseman or I added]; Pressman only shows that the jpost's portrayal is true, at least for the particular round of negotiations that Pressman was discussing on pp. 16-18 RE: who will get to keep Latrun indefinitely. Now, on to the other issue of whether Arafat & his team needed to accept that the "annexation" is 'legal' in order for it to be defined as an "annexation." I thought you'd have known the definition of "annexation" before lecturing me about its application to the Latrun situation and/or that definition's application to what Pressman did (or didn't) say, and it seems our differing definitions of "annexed" are what caused you to think that I was claiming Pressman said Arafat approved of the annexation (I don't care whether Arafat approved of it or not, because his approval isn't needed for it to be defined as "annexed," as I'll use Britannica to show below [thus "annexed" still is the proper word] 72.183.52.92 ( talk) 14:04, 21 April 2014 (UTC)"[Abbas's team] stated their desire to reverse planned agreements for the land to be incorporated into Israel".
I found two things in articles of Shaul Arieli that tell a third story. I'm not yet addressing the issue of whether these are citable.
That is the most knowledgeable description I have found so far. If Arieli is right, Israel's claim is not based on annexation but on legal argument. Zero talk 12:53, 20 April 2014 (UTC)
In Nov 1969, the Jewish National Fund (JNF) director I. Levy denied that JNF funds were being used to support settlements in the occupied territories. "The only exception, Dr. Levy says, is the area around Latrun which was accorded to Israel at the time of partition in 1947, but was won by the Arabs during the 1948 war." (The Times, Nov 15, 1969; p. 7) Dr. Levy was lying, both about JNF activities and about the partition plan. Zero talk 23:32, 20 April 2014 (UTC)
Jewish Telegraphic Agency reports:
No official act of annexation is mentioned. That's because there wasn't one. Zero talk 00:00, 21 April 2014 (UTC)
This definition is already cited in other WP articles, e.g. regarding Russia's recent "annexation" of Crimea, which Ukraine (and the UN) does NOT accept: "a unilateral act made effective by actual possession, and legitimized by general recognition." So, what we have is that if Israel says it's already annexed (even if they say this "unilaterally"), it is... However, you could say it's an "illegal" annexation if you find the UN General Assembly denouncing Israel's annexation (as the UN's GA recently denounced Russia's annexation of UE) ...or I don't mind if you call it "an unrecognised annexation" whether or not you find any sort of denunciations from the UN.
But even an "unrecognised or illegal annexation" is not equivalent to "no annexation," per the above; such annexations are "effective" to quote Britannica's definition, or we'd usually replace the term "effective" with the Latin term, de facto. But as I said yesterday: feel free to write that Israel only "may have annexed [Latrun]" instead of what's currently written in the lede, that's not a big deal. But to go further than that will mislead WP readers, given the info and sources that we do have: de facto it is indeed annexed, and de jure we have inconclusive & conflicting info, so far. The de facto status of anything is the REALITY anyway; you can theorize all that you'd like about legality, but to add the de jure status you'd need a different source (besides the jpost link that I gave). jpost already states its de facto status, and now the Brittanica definition showing that even if it's only "unilaterally" (de facto) annexed, it's still "annexed" (to quote jpost).
The Ukraine also doesn't accept that Russia annexed the Ukraine, but they comprehend that "annexed" is the proper term...it's being called an "annexation" by both sides (and of course now that the UN General Assembly reacted & called Russia's action illegal, ofc Ukraine and their supporters call it an "illegal annexation"...but still "annexation"). Likewise, the State of Palestine has accused that the Separation Barrier is "The Annexation Wall" :-) ...and whilst I don't intend to insert the following paragraph's information into any articles (it'd be highly WP:OR), and you don't need to read it, I hope it deepens others' comprehension:
Palestine's supporters such as Alhaque.org (as I think this article already quotes alhaque.org?) also call it the "Annexation Wall"; and whilst that alone wouldn't be enough to say "annexed" in the article, jpost, a WP:RS source, is. Let's stop beating around the bush: the reality is that Palestine & their supporters comprehend that it's an "Annexation Wall" (whether or not PNA/State of Palestine ACCEPTS the righteousness of it...contrast "accept" with the above word "comprehend"), and that they're in no position to fight for it, nor to dictate terms of the land-for-peace deal and change Latrun's status unless Israel voluntarily gives it to em out of the goodness of their heart and out of TRUSTING the Arabs not to use this high-ground to attack Israel again... A party of Arabs, "Fatah," that was: 1. founded by Arafat, whose mentor, the Mufti of Jerusalem, was HITLER'S ally and a Muslim convicted at Nuremberg for his own racist mass-murders and coined the concept of the "Palestinian" identity (mirroring his German allies/trainers who coined an "Aryan" identity), 2. as Fatah soldiers still throw "Seig Heil" salutes even today. LMAO, as the jpost's Israeli official showed, the state of Israel's reps are not insanely naive enough to give LATRUN's high ground to THEM! ...as the jpost's Israeli official confirmed using strong words that this remains their position as of 2013. So, "adding up" the many facts-on-the-ground that we do know, do you think there's even a 1% chance that Israel will treat this hilltop that protrudes westward toward Israel's main cities as "occupied" like the rest of the West Bank and give it away, or that Abbas can win it in a war?! Israel acknowledges they WANT to give Fatah most of the West Bank, but their maps during the peace process (and the jpost's Israeli official...) show that Israel recognises Latrun as one of if not THE most valuable piece of land that they'd keep, per Arafat ageeing in the 90's that they can keep some hilltops... Whilst I can't put my personal opinion into WP articles, the jpost article which cites both governments' sources can be used in WP articles -- but I'd agree to it being marked better source needed or the like -- and I do recognise that THIS PARAGRAPH is "only my opinion"...but a well-supported opinion, showing that both sides know that Palestine would need a miracle to get Latrun back in the foreseeable (indefinite) future; that is the realpolitik. :-) Fatah has no chance of re-taking it militarily and Israel won't volunteer it; these villagers might get money [or Abbas might put it into his Swiss Bank Account instead ;-) ], but whilst money is an option, I can see why the Israeli official in the jpost article said they're going to return Latrun to Fatah (to paraphrase) "when hell freezes over." (an occupation, in contrast, is temporary: and Israel DOES acknowledge that they INTEND not to annex most of the West Bank, but Israel has said during negotiations [as Pressman, and minutes of Oslo, etc exhibit] that they WILL demand to keep parts of the West Bank, and based on jpost, the Israeli official is saying Latrun, as of 2013, is a place they still see as too valuable to give away: whether or not Abbas accepts that Latrun was already de facto annexed or not is irrelevant, because, per the above definition and other definitions cited in Russia-related WP articles, unilateral annexation still is called "annexation" and the jpost article uses the Israeli official to confirm the official disposition toward whether they will keep Latrun, and that is NOT a new disposition, not any sort of surprise that should require massive sources to confirm (as Pressman confirms it was Israel's position even way back in the 90's...how is this even "news," let alone a shocking piece of news??). I'm shocked that you'd have wasted your time looking for a disproof of it being an "annexation" (especially if you had researched the fact that "annexed" includes unilateral/de facto situations, meaning that the BEST you can look for is material to call it an "illegal annexation" (I feel like I might be about to help you achieve your goal since so many people enjoy bandying about the word "illegal" as in "illegal annexation," but as I said, I don't take sides, so there ya go, a little help as to what you could research to make Israel look bad ;-) ), and I say 'big whoop' even if you can find sources to prove it's an "illegal" annexation: nobody like Israel or Russia--nuclear powers--pays attention to the UN. :-) How many times has the peanut-gallery of 2-bit despots, i.e. the UN's General Assembly, "deplored" Israel? Israel never has cared if the UN disapproves, honey... And you think that Israel would BEGIN to care about world opinion, on this issue -- Latrun's refugees taking back the hilltop, which would force Israel to risk tonnes of their civilians' lives if Fatah uses a powerful place like Latrun to shell MOST of Israel's LARGEST cities from it?! That's just not going to happen, and that's WHY I'm not sure why you or Huldra waste time dreaming of it NOT being taken permanently (annexed) or editing this article as though, by putting such words on paper, you can help any Palestinians, nor help WP readers to realise the desperation of one side [inability to take it] and desperation of the other side [inability to risk giving it away, when they have opportunities to give away much less valuable & less risky lowlands to the Palestina].) 72.183.52.92 ( talk) 14:04, 21 April 2014 (UTC)
The article says "The 4 Arab villages there were razed on the orders of Israeli general Yitzhak Rabin". Three citations are given, but the only one that indicates Rabin as responsible is this al-Haq legal brief, which quotes Rabin from a 1991 Canadian TV documentary saying "I gave the order". However, the book "The Bride and the Dowry" by Avi Raz (pp. 112–113) mentions two other claimants. Uzi Narkiss, commanding general of the Central Command, claimed at least five times between 1994 and 1997 that he alone gave the order. According to Narkiss, Rabin was unaware of it until afterwards and threatened Narkiss with a commission of enquiry. Raz cites archival documents in support of Narkiss' claims. Moshe Dayan also at one time claimed to have given the order himself, though Raz doesn't believe it. Zero talk 13:35, 20 April 2014 (UTC)
I had added Canada Park is in the Occupied Palestinian territories. We could also state it is in West Bank. But currently it is stated it is located North of a Highway, which sounds strange. Any comment ? Pluto2012 ( talk) 11:32, 21 April 2014 (UTC)
This annexation takes place in the 1970s; the article for West Bank only notes the UN barring/delegitimising "whatever agreements have been made between Israel and Palestinian authorities since 1993," and thus these 1970's annexations may also be de jure (legal) annexations, but I wouldn't add anything to the article stating that we've confirmed it's part of the West Bank (legally) OR not part of the West Bank (legally), without an actual source explicitly saying that the court rulings have confirmed one or the other."Near Latrun, the planting of Canada Park stretched from the 'no man's' zone over the boundary into the West Bank. [The next sentence notes "the major highway" also goes thru the No Man's Land; I'll note that Rte 1 even goes into (the traditional limits of) The West Bank, as does Canada Park, not only into the No Man's Land.] This amendment of the boundary was in effect a de facto annexation which was not accompanied by any formal government decision".
The park is located on the lands of three Palestinian West Bank villages,[5] partly on land that Israel claims to have annexed.The park is located on land that Israel de facto annexed. then citations to Newman pg. 16 AND to jpost
72.183.52.92 ( talk) 16:29, 21 April 2014 (UTC)
Meanwhile, our anon has turned Latrun in a long rambling mess like his comments here, full of personal analysis and wild claims. Zero talk 01:58, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
Before this removal, it was stated historical remains included "the ruins of Palestinian villages". Does anyone got the book and can check if that was indeed mentioned? As this was typical editing and no explanation was given, it could actually be reverted straight away. -- IRISZOOM ( talk) 00:57, 18 February 2015 (UTC)
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That text follows the source, but it should be noted that it assumes the minimal Israeli interpretation of the green line. The Palestinian interpretation of it is at the outer boundary of the no-mans-land, consistent with physical control during 1948-1967. In the Palestinian interpretation of the borders, none of Canada Park is in Israel. This should be mentioned and sourced. Zero talk 13:46, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
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Avilyn, let's avoid an edit war. You removed my entry that provided some background for the Israeli attack on the villages. Without this information the reader is led to mistakenly believe that Israel arbitrary decided to attack those villages just for the heck of it, when any serious student of the region recent history knows this is just not true. Besides, the section on international law is hardly suitable for an article on a park.
I will restore the entry you deleted and I am respectfully asking you to remove the international law entry and replace it by a suitable external reference. Again, this is an article on a park, not a propaganda piece.
Danielcohn 07:01, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Daniel I would be more than happy to avoid an edit war with you. Perhaps we can come to an agreement. I removed the section on 1967 because the sentences were incomplete and grammatically problemtic. Now that you have reinserted them in a way that is more comprehensible I have no problems with leaving the section as is. I must however insist that "occupation" remains "occupation" as opposed to "administration", which is factually incorrect (see International Law, United Nations resolutions, as well as statements by current and previous Israeli governments) as well as terribly misleading to the reader. The section on international law must also remain given its relevance to the topic as the site of a war crime. I am confident that readers would be interested in this.
I'm sorry but I fail to see how an international law section is relevant to a site on a **PARK**. A detailed and balanced coveragae of the events of the 1967 war, including refugee and legal issues, belongs in an article about the war or about the refugee crisis, not in a site about a park! Can we agree on that? Danielcohn 09:34, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
Nothing about the 1967 war has anything to do with an article on a park. I agree that it's ok to have a brief summary of the destruction of the three villages in this article, but it should not contain in-depth info about the villages because the article isn't about them, it's about the Canada Park. I will remove most of the article's current 'content' if no good reason is raised for why it should be in the article. -- Ynhockey ( Talk) 17:10, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
The article is about the park not about the villages please read carefully Wikipedia policies and don't restore POV version of the article again|The article is about the park not about the villages please read carefully Wikipedia policies and don't restore POV version of the article again|Thank you.}}-- Shrike 15:50, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
(unindent)The discussion never involved mass-removal of everything controversial. And whether or not the sources are reliable, there should be some mention of the controversy on the page, not a complete absolution. -- VegitaU 20:46, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
I agree, but what you did was delete everything having to do with that issue. If you felt that a "mention" of it should be in the article, why did you erase everything? -- VegitaU 20:57, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
I don't see any sources at all for the park. -- VegitaU 21:06, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
It takes about fifteen seconds of research to discover that, yes, Canada Park is built on the remains of razed Palestinian villages, and yes, that's a highly salient fact if not the most salient fact about the entire park. I'm disgusted with those editors who blithely proclaim, "oh, it's only a park, stop trying to push Palestinian claims into the article". Shall we bulldoze Pittsburgh, rename it "Indonesia Park", and then declare that it's "only a park", therefore the history doesn't matter? Shame. Eleland 20:35, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
How should this article discuss the former inhabitants of the area?
just watch this to get a real opinion about this warcrime. http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.com/2007/12/how-israels-apartheid-works-example-of.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.228.69.84 ( talk) 22:42, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
I have split off the controversial item about prior Palestinian use and Israeli capture of the land into its own section. In my opinion, this material belongs in a separate section and not in the lead. It may appear that I'm trying to introduce a pro-Israel bias, but really I'm just trying to put the material in its proper place, not to remove any of it from view. I hope that's okay. Yechiel ( Shalom) 22:01, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
The article should describe where the park is: Israel-pre-1967, West-Bank, or East-Jerusalem. - DePiep ( talk) 20:05, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
not about what was there before. This artcle is about 75% about that right now, and i think that there should be more mention of access, activities and the uses of the park as opposed to whatever villages might have been there before. There is no question that the neutrality of this article was compromised when it starts talking about the villages. If you think that this article can accurately describe the park while talking about this, then you're mistaken. Make up an article about the displaced villages if you like, but take this info out.
Maximum927 ( talk) 14:35, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
It can't be both 7,000 dunams and 1,275 dunams. One of the sources given for 1,275 even says "32,000 hectares" which is 320,000 dunams! Zero talk 12:56, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
The green area on the map, which comes from a national park map I found on the internet, measures 8,800 dunams as near as I can measure it. Zero talk 13:28, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
The majority of this Talk page's "complaints/New Topics opened" are from people who, like me, saw with a "dry reading" of Canada Park that a certain political faction is attempting to politicize this article with a one-sided argument and telling "half-truths," making the lede & First Section focus too much on recent events rather than the archaeology contained within the park. (WP already has other articles for those "recent events" and I don't mind if Canada Park links to those, as my past edits show, so long as those articles and/or Canada Park balance and show the "background" (to quote another complaint in this Talk page) for why IDF counter-attacked & razed these villages, etc, as I linked to even a United Nations report showing Latrun (Canada Park's hilltop) was being used to shell UN convoys, and to shell Israeli civilians in the valley, for the purpose of blockading (starving Jews out of) Jerusalem... telling half-truths as people on this page have pointed out it makes it seem Israel "arbitrarily" depopulated these villages: the full history...full truths [balance], not half-truths [POV-pushing].)
Additionally, as an archaeologist, I think the ancient History of what makes this Archaeology Park important should be told in this article, if we keep the "History" section. Before I even saw this Talk page (and hadn't seen that there's a 1RR protection on it, as can be seen by my last edit in "History" page), I didn't know that so many others (on this Talk page) had noticed the same bias that I noticed. Three options:
1. The page as I found it and as most of this Talk page's New Topics complained about: diff
2. Fuller history (because this IS an Archaeology' Park, ancient history is the most relevant -- although I don't object to the modern history so long as it's balanced, in a way that addresses the majority of complaints on this webpage, e.g. 1 edit that I tried is as follows: diff or even better (toning myself down) diff and was deleted within hours by username zero0000 who has a long history of POV'ed edits & disputes [1], appears to no longer have privileges he once enjoyed {though I haven't investigated the next one fully, so pls forgive me if this is no longer the case; I just don't see any 'badges' etc on his userpage: [2]}, etc).
3. We could delete the whole history section & rely instead upon the "See also" links near the end of the article, which do contain the region's full history, both ancient & modern, as these "See also" articles contain the info and much better-written & less POV that this ( Canada Park's) "History section, such as (chronologically): --See also--
...and do note that I was willing to include "Yalo" (and/or a "History" section that does include anti-Israel sources; if we include a "History" section [despite that it's redundant since other WP articles cover the topic: Ayalon/ Latrun/ Yalo articles cover it all, and in a less POV way than this article's one-sided "History"] which shows that I'm not trying to hide the history of the Palestinian ruins on this site (the way that SEVERAL ppl besides me noticed that one or more ppl are revrting, over years as this Talk page shows, any attempts to show that the IDF didn't depopulate the village "arbitrarily" (to quote 1 person's complaint on this Talk page), but it's just not appropriate to politicise an Archaeological Park: this region has a long (millennia-old) history of being a point of strategic high-ground which defends the (Mediterranean) seaborne path up to Jerusalem...which is the main reason why Canada Park contains ruins of old forts (a main reason why it is even a Park today!), and its long-term strategic value is indeed still relevant (noteworthy in a WP article) even in a "Modern history" section discussing the recent (1948 & 67) history. 72.183.52.92 ( talk) 18:32, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
I was amazed by this number that semms very high to me. So I quickly checked the population of each village and I found that Yalo is claimed to have 16,000 unhabitants in 1961. Does someone know the source of this ? This still seems extremely high for me. I don't see 16,000 people leaving there... It is a city, not a village... The article about Yalo also talks about 593 hours that was destroyed. That would make more than 25 people per house as an average. Pluto2012 ( talk) 07:38, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
72.183.52.92 ( talk) 16:17, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
72.183.52.92 ( talk) 03:48, 21 April 2014 (UTC)
References
Regarding your to Canada Park:
Pluto2012 stated "there are several interesting edits" in 72.183.52.92's edits, and cited one line, "territory is claimed by Israel", as the reason to revert the entire set of edits. Following WP:Don't throw out the baby with the bath water, I restored the reverted edits, since it sounded like the edit was mostly good, but had one problem. I was in the process of trying to find and remove the line that Pluto2012 complained about when you made your edit, reverting my revert of Pluto2012's edit within six minutes.
If you feel that 72.183.52.92's edits were more than 50% junk, then you made the right call in reverting my reversion. However, if you feel that more than half of his edit was worthwhile, I think it would be better to just remove the sections which you find disagreeable, and leave any sections that you feel are valuable or worthwhile contributions to the article.
I'm not familiar with this subject at all, but the constant edit warring on that page is sending me messages every time the page is relinked to a page I created. Since you seem to have a stronger opinion about the subject, I'll trust that you know more than I do about the subject and have better judgement about what is accurate, impartial, and reliable information, etc. However, I would appreciate it if you and the rest of the people involved in the edit war could please talk things out and try to find some kind of compromise, rather than feverishly making and unmaking edits. Thank you. - NorsemanII ( talk) 19:57, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
There were indeed 6 assaults on Latrun :
Anita Shapira talks about 6 operation, I don't know which one Benny Morris, who talks about 5 operations, forgot. Anyway it doesn't matter at all.
Pluto2012 ( talk) 11:29, 20 April 2014 (UTC)
Please restrict this section to the annexation issue and write about other issues in other sections.
Two sentences in the article claim that Israel either annexed the Latrun salient (which includes a fraction of Canada Park) or "claimed to have annexed" it. As far as I can tell, no source at all has been provided for "Israel claims to have annexed" but only a Jerusalem Post journalist making that claim [4]. Said journalist also quotes some unnamed official claiming that "All peace plans have always put Latrun inside Israel", which is false: every Israeli offer has included Israeli annexation of the salient but this has always been opposed by the Palestinians (see any account of the Camp David meetings in 2000, for example). In contradiction to that source's claim that "Israel annexed the Latrun salient ... soon after the Six Day War", a historical article in Haaretz said "The enclave has yet to be annexed" [5]. Faced with two newspaper articles making opposite claims, we certainly can't insert one claim and ignore the other. We have to mention either or both. Better would be to find a stronger source, such as an academic article, that establishes the facts with citation of original documents. I have found a few books that make each claim but none give any details or cite evidence. I also looked in several book-length accounts of the occupation starting in 1967, including the negotiations and discussions over the following decades, and did not find any mention of the Latrun salient being annexed, though plenty of proposals for that, eg. in the Allon Plan. Zero talk 11:42, 20 April 2014 (UTC)
and you're only considering the 1st half of that: whilst I already shared your view that citing Pressman shows the fact Arafat didn't accept that there has already been an annexation of Latrun which is legal (however, we don't need to prove or disprove Arafat's or even the UN's approval to meet the definition of an "annexation"; see below sub-section), but what I was pointing out on 21 April 04:23 (when I quoted the 2nd half of the last blockquote) is that page 16-18 of Pressman ADDS support to what Norseman and I both had written in the lede (which I sourced from jpost...but now Pressman also ADDS support, in addition to jpost, to the following); here is what I wrote into the lede, which the above blockquote (from Pressman) SUPPORTS:"Israel, however, omits No Man's Land (50 sq km near Latrun ... The Palestinian figure included Israeli annexation of...parts of the Latrun salient"
i.e. you only showed that Arafat disagreed whether Latrun should be counted toward the "percentage" (and to that, I've already agreed: see "percentage" in what I wrote yesterday) but what I wanted you to notice yesterday is that what Arafat & Israel DID AGREE on is that Latrun's Final Status = part of Israel [i.e. "ANNEXED" as Norseman & I claimed in the lede], instead of Latrun being within the new Palestinian state.)"Israeli and Palestinian negotiators have agreed ...during all stages of the Peace Process, [that Latrun] would become [NOTE: future tense here...whereas you were talking about citing Pressman to show that Arafat in the 1990's wasn't accepting that Israel had "already"--past tense--annexed Latrun...see the word "already" in boldtext, a few lines above this] incorporated into Israel"
I was saying that in THIS regard, your own source (Pressman) agrees with jpost and me (that Abbas is "reversing" what he agreed to earlier, in the 1990's part of the Peace Process which Pressman's paper covers); Pressman doesn't fully confirm what Norseman and I added to the lede [but jpost does FULLY support what Norseman or I added]; Pressman only shows that the jpost's portrayal is true, at least for the particular round of negotiations that Pressman was discussing on pp. 16-18 RE: who will get to keep Latrun indefinitely. Now, on to the other issue of whether Arafat & his team needed to accept that the "annexation" is 'legal' in order for it to be defined as an "annexation." I thought you'd have known the definition of "annexation" before lecturing me about its application to the Latrun situation and/or that definition's application to what Pressman did (or didn't) say, and it seems our differing definitions of "annexed" are what caused you to think that I was claiming Pressman said Arafat approved of the annexation (I don't care whether Arafat approved of it or not, because his approval isn't needed for it to be defined as "annexed," as I'll use Britannica to show below [thus "annexed" still is the proper word] 72.183.52.92 ( talk) 14:04, 21 April 2014 (UTC)"[Abbas's team] stated their desire to reverse planned agreements for the land to be incorporated into Israel".
I found two things in articles of Shaul Arieli that tell a third story. I'm not yet addressing the issue of whether these are citable.
That is the most knowledgeable description I have found so far. If Arieli is right, Israel's claim is not based on annexation but on legal argument. Zero talk 12:53, 20 April 2014 (UTC)
In Nov 1969, the Jewish National Fund (JNF) director I. Levy denied that JNF funds were being used to support settlements in the occupied territories. "The only exception, Dr. Levy says, is the area around Latrun which was accorded to Israel at the time of partition in 1947, but was won by the Arabs during the 1948 war." (The Times, Nov 15, 1969; p. 7) Dr. Levy was lying, both about JNF activities and about the partition plan. Zero talk 23:32, 20 April 2014 (UTC)
Jewish Telegraphic Agency reports:
No official act of annexation is mentioned. That's because there wasn't one. Zero talk 00:00, 21 April 2014 (UTC)
This definition is already cited in other WP articles, e.g. regarding Russia's recent "annexation" of Crimea, which Ukraine (and the UN) does NOT accept: "a unilateral act made effective by actual possession, and legitimized by general recognition." So, what we have is that if Israel says it's already annexed (even if they say this "unilaterally"), it is... However, you could say it's an "illegal" annexation if you find the UN General Assembly denouncing Israel's annexation (as the UN's GA recently denounced Russia's annexation of UE) ...or I don't mind if you call it "an unrecognised annexation" whether or not you find any sort of denunciations from the UN.
But even an "unrecognised or illegal annexation" is not equivalent to "no annexation," per the above; such annexations are "effective" to quote Britannica's definition, or we'd usually replace the term "effective" with the Latin term, de facto. But as I said yesterday: feel free to write that Israel only "may have annexed [Latrun]" instead of what's currently written in the lede, that's not a big deal. But to go further than that will mislead WP readers, given the info and sources that we do have: de facto it is indeed annexed, and de jure we have inconclusive & conflicting info, so far. The de facto status of anything is the REALITY anyway; you can theorize all that you'd like about legality, but to add the de jure status you'd need a different source (besides the jpost link that I gave). jpost already states its de facto status, and now the Brittanica definition showing that even if it's only "unilaterally" (de facto) annexed, it's still "annexed" (to quote jpost).
The Ukraine also doesn't accept that Russia annexed the Ukraine, but they comprehend that "annexed" is the proper term...it's being called an "annexation" by both sides (and of course now that the UN General Assembly reacted & called Russia's action illegal, ofc Ukraine and their supporters call it an "illegal annexation"...but still "annexation"). Likewise, the State of Palestine has accused that the Separation Barrier is "The Annexation Wall" :-) ...and whilst I don't intend to insert the following paragraph's information into any articles (it'd be highly WP:OR), and you don't need to read it, I hope it deepens others' comprehension:
Palestine's supporters such as Alhaque.org (as I think this article already quotes alhaque.org?) also call it the "Annexation Wall"; and whilst that alone wouldn't be enough to say "annexed" in the article, jpost, a WP:RS source, is. Let's stop beating around the bush: the reality is that Palestine & their supporters comprehend that it's an "Annexation Wall" (whether or not PNA/State of Palestine ACCEPTS the righteousness of it...contrast "accept" with the above word "comprehend"), and that they're in no position to fight for it, nor to dictate terms of the land-for-peace deal and change Latrun's status unless Israel voluntarily gives it to em out of the goodness of their heart and out of TRUSTING the Arabs not to use this high-ground to attack Israel again... A party of Arabs, "Fatah," that was: 1. founded by Arafat, whose mentor, the Mufti of Jerusalem, was HITLER'S ally and a Muslim convicted at Nuremberg for his own racist mass-murders and coined the concept of the "Palestinian" identity (mirroring his German allies/trainers who coined an "Aryan" identity), 2. as Fatah soldiers still throw "Seig Heil" salutes even today. LMAO, as the jpost's Israeli official showed, the state of Israel's reps are not insanely naive enough to give LATRUN's high ground to THEM! ...as the jpost's Israeli official confirmed using strong words that this remains their position as of 2013. So, "adding up" the many facts-on-the-ground that we do know, do you think there's even a 1% chance that Israel will treat this hilltop that protrudes westward toward Israel's main cities as "occupied" like the rest of the West Bank and give it away, or that Abbas can win it in a war?! Israel acknowledges they WANT to give Fatah most of the West Bank, but their maps during the peace process (and the jpost's Israeli official...) show that Israel recognises Latrun as one of if not THE most valuable piece of land that they'd keep, per Arafat ageeing in the 90's that they can keep some hilltops... Whilst I can't put my personal opinion into WP articles, the jpost article which cites both governments' sources can be used in WP articles -- but I'd agree to it being marked better source needed or the like -- and I do recognise that THIS PARAGRAPH is "only my opinion"...but a well-supported opinion, showing that both sides know that Palestine would need a miracle to get Latrun back in the foreseeable (indefinite) future; that is the realpolitik. :-) Fatah has no chance of re-taking it militarily and Israel won't volunteer it; these villagers might get money [or Abbas might put it into his Swiss Bank Account instead ;-) ], but whilst money is an option, I can see why the Israeli official in the jpost article said they're going to return Latrun to Fatah (to paraphrase) "when hell freezes over." (an occupation, in contrast, is temporary: and Israel DOES acknowledge that they INTEND not to annex most of the West Bank, but Israel has said during negotiations [as Pressman, and minutes of Oslo, etc exhibit] that they WILL demand to keep parts of the West Bank, and based on jpost, the Israeli official is saying Latrun, as of 2013, is a place they still see as too valuable to give away: whether or not Abbas accepts that Latrun was already de facto annexed or not is irrelevant, because, per the above definition and other definitions cited in Russia-related WP articles, unilateral annexation still is called "annexation" and the jpost article uses the Israeli official to confirm the official disposition toward whether they will keep Latrun, and that is NOT a new disposition, not any sort of surprise that should require massive sources to confirm (as Pressman confirms it was Israel's position even way back in the 90's...how is this even "news," let alone a shocking piece of news??). I'm shocked that you'd have wasted your time looking for a disproof of it being an "annexation" (especially if you had researched the fact that "annexed" includes unilateral/de facto situations, meaning that the BEST you can look for is material to call it an "illegal annexation" (I feel like I might be about to help you achieve your goal since so many people enjoy bandying about the word "illegal" as in "illegal annexation," but as I said, I don't take sides, so there ya go, a little help as to what you could research to make Israel look bad ;-) ), and I say 'big whoop' even if you can find sources to prove it's an "illegal" annexation: nobody like Israel or Russia--nuclear powers--pays attention to the UN. :-) How many times has the peanut-gallery of 2-bit despots, i.e. the UN's General Assembly, "deplored" Israel? Israel never has cared if the UN disapproves, honey... And you think that Israel would BEGIN to care about world opinion, on this issue -- Latrun's refugees taking back the hilltop, which would force Israel to risk tonnes of their civilians' lives if Fatah uses a powerful place like Latrun to shell MOST of Israel's LARGEST cities from it?! That's just not going to happen, and that's WHY I'm not sure why you or Huldra waste time dreaming of it NOT being taken permanently (annexed) or editing this article as though, by putting such words on paper, you can help any Palestinians, nor help WP readers to realise the desperation of one side [inability to take it] and desperation of the other side [inability to risk giving it away, when they have opportunities to give away much less valuable & less risky lowlands to the Palestina].) 72.183.52.92 ( talk) 14:04, 21 April 2014 (UTC)
The article says "The 4 Arab villages there were razed on the orders of Israeli general Yitzhak Rabin". Three citations are given, but the only one that indicates Rabin as responsible is this al-Haq legal brief, which quotes Rabin from a 1991 Canadian TV documentary saying "I gave the order". However, the book "The Bride and the Dowry" by Avi Raz (pp. 112–113) mentions two other claimants. Uzi Narkiss, commanding general of the Central Command, claimed at least five times between 1994 and 1997 that he alone gave the order. According to Narkiss, Rabin was unaware of it until afterwards and threatened Narkiss with a commission of enquiry. Raz cites archival documents in support of Narkiss' claims. Moshe Dayan also at one time claimed to have given the order himself, though Raz doesn't believe it. Zero talk 13:35, 20 April 2014 (UTC)
I had added Canada Park is in the Occupied Palestinian territories. We could also state it is in West Bank. But currently it is stated it is located North of a Highway, which sounds strange. Any comment ? Pluto2012 ( talk) 11:32, 21 April 2014 (UTC)
This annexation takes place in the 1970s; the article for West Bank only notes the UN barring/delegitimising "whatever agreements have been made between Israel and Palestinian authorities since 1993," and thus these 1970's annexations may also be de jure (legal) annexations, but I wouldn't add anything to the article stating that we've confirmed it's part of the West Bank (legally) OR not part of the West Bank (legally), without an actual source explicitly saying that the court rulings have confirmed one or the other."Near Latrun, the planting of Canada Park stretched from the 'no man's' zone over the boundary into the West Bank. [The next sentence notes "the major highway" also goes thru the No Man's Land; I'll note that Rte 1 even goes into (the traditional limits of) The West Bank, as does Canada Park, not only into the No Man's Land.] This amendment of the boundary was in effect a de facto annexation which was not accompanied by any formal government decision".
The park is located on the lands of three Palestinian West Bank villages,[5] partly on land that Israel claims to have annexed.The park is located on land that Israel de facto annexed. then citations to Newman pg. 16 AND to jpost
72.183.52.92 ( talk) 16:29, 21 April 2014 (UTC)
Meanwhile, our anon has turned Latrun in a long rambling mess like his comments here, full of personal analysis and wild claims. Zero talk 01:58, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
Before this removal, it was stated historical remains included "the ruins of Palestinian villages". Does anyone got the book and can check if that was indeed mentioned? As this was typical editing and no explanation was given, it could actually be reverted straight away. -- IRISZOOM ( talk) 00:57, 18 February 2015 (UTC)
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That text follows the source, but it should be noted that it assumes the minimal Israeli interpretation of the green line. The Palestinian interpretation of it is at the outer boundary of the no-mans-land, consistent with physical control during 1948-1967. In the Palestinian interpretation of the borders, none of Canada Park is in Israel. This should be mentioned and sourced. Zero talk 13:46, 10 April 2016 (UTC)