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Discussion of Canada's official name Future TFA paragraph |
There is no clear rule in WP:MOS and there is a clear Canadian style in this manner. Just as Canadian english is used in this article, Canadian style should be used in the article. Commas are a cause of confusion in Canada because they can also mean periods, especially for english-speaking people living in Quebec. The space involves no confusion, and is not specifically against the Manual of Style (the manual of style says "may"). I will be changing it back. -- Jeff3000 02:38, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
I'm glad you recognize that even you make some mistakes. But back to the point, the number was being corrected to that which is cited by the IMF (the old number before the switch to the CIA number was not sourced, and not verifiable, and couldn't be included.) The CIA number is valid, but given that Canada was listed at number 11, that would go with the IMF numbers. Even MJCDetroit confirms that above. And as I mentioned above (please read my statement) I said that while I was changing the number to the verifiable number I noticed the difference in style and changed it. Could you assume a little good faith? -- Jeff3000 21:07, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
I think it's about time to revamp all the stat's. Some are listed at 2003, when there's already 2005 info. The GDP is cleary not of 2006 etc.....-- 24.80.25.37 21:32, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
Without wishing to be too nitpicking 'all countries were 'originally inhabited exclusively by aboriginal peoples'. That's what aboriginal means. DJ Clayworth 14:07, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
If we were to capitalize Aboriginal or use the legal status term 'Indian' or find some other way on indicating that we are refering to a certain race of people, that might solve this little problem. Jaderaid 00:06, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
Firsly, there was already a discussion of the commonwealth template (among others) here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Canada/Archive3#Templates
Since the Commonwealth Realms template is featured on Monarchy in Canada and since the Commonwealth is featured here already on Template:Canada ties, I think it should be removed. -- TheMightyQuill 15:58, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Ditto for the G8 Template. I'm going to be bold and remove them both. -- TheMightyQuill 16:02, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
I have made efforts to consolidate the history section in my sandbox area User:Maclean25/sandbox#History. The changes include removing unnecessary sub-headings, improving the conciseness of the writing, covering broad topics w/o going into details (that should be in the sub-article), and using strategic wikilinking (to avoid going into further detail). As this is supposed to be a summary style account I limited the structure to one paragraph for each of the following:
I considered everything after 2000 to be recent (ie. not history) and so should be placed in the appropriate section elsewhere in the article. There are several wikilinks that I could not figure out how to get in there. If there is any interest in working these ideas into the main article please contact me. -- maclean25 03:22, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
When did french become an official language? Talous 15:25, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
411junkie ( talk • contribs) added the Canadian celebrities section. At best, I think this belongs in Portal:Canada, since this appears to be an attempt at using Canada as the "main page" for the subject of Canada and this is the entire purpose of wikipedia:Portals. Also note that the first article in the list, List of Famous Canadian Actors, is authored by the same user and so inserting the link into a prominent place here is a species of vanity. I haven't looked too hard at that article, but the miscapitalisation and redness of the user's name indicate that they're simply inexperienced in these things. — Saxifrage ✎ 07:08, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Is there a reason why the Harper picture is so big? -- Jeff3000 20:18, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
Which version of the plural of referendum should we use in this article? (I started this discussion previously, but it is now archived.)
I recognize that both versions are acceptable in English. My preference is for referendums, because, as the referendum article states, the OED considers referendums to be preferable. I realize that this is not a big deal for this article, but I would like to settle this through discussion and consensus. Replies like "both versions are acceptable, so we must use 'referenda'" are unsatisfactory.
It is possible there are overlooked and uncorrected spelling errors in the above paragraph. Please do not dismiss my entire point if you find any. -- thirty-seven 06:16, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
This really isn't worth discussing. If you want to change it, thirty-seven, then change it. I for one don't care which you choose. I do care that people are wasting time discussing it though, because it won't make the article one whit better or worse whichever form is eventually chosen. -- Derek Ross | Talk 17:26, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
I vote for referenda. President Lethe 18:07, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
I solicited for opinions, and I got them. One for referenda and two I don't cares. I'm content to leave it as referenda in this article. -- thirty-seven 23:32, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
The Royal Anthem was replaced by the Canadian National Anthem. Probably it was still used in some schools intitially afterwards, but today there is virtually no one who sings the Royal Anthem, so a star or note should be put underneath saying that it is not practicised in public institutions. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.95.162.140 ( talk • contribs) .
The images of the canadarm and montreal biosphere seem out of place.. should they be removed? this article has quite a few pictures as it is. Mlm42 14:49, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
I was just thinking that the other day. Unless someone wants to write a subsection called "Canada's Space Program" I don't see why the article should have a photo of the Canadarm. -- TheMightyQuill 16:50, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
I agree that the biosphere picture seems out-of-place. I would prefer it replaced with a more "standard" photo of the city of Montreal. However, I think the Canadarm photo should remain, although it could be moved to a section talking about science, technology, or industry. -- thirty-seven 17:46, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
I think that this article should be featured. The League of Crazy M en 11:30, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
This subsection should be renamed and simplified. Since our goal is a very brief overview of the most important aspects of Canadian history, I think the focus on direct Canadian involvement should be removed. Although this is an interesting and important aspect of Canadian history that was previously unknown to me, I don't think it belongs in this article. Rather, this section should be pared down to focus on the most important effects of the American Revolution on Canada: namely the United Empire Loyalists and their impact on Canada. I have made these changes to the article. -- thirty-seven 22:41, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
The misconception that Canada was build by a victory over the French deserve to be explain.
The Defeat of the British is not unimportant to understand why pro-queen live in Canada and not in the US, only 2000 english came in Québec from 1759 to 1783, as oppose to 50 000 that came suddently because French had defeated the English at Yorktown...You cannot for ever hide a tsunami like this. In 150 years their was 60 000 quebecker in 1759. Suddently the Defeat of the British over the French at Yorktown (they were more numerous then the american) resulted in the same number of people comming suddently in Canada...how can you hide this fact ? Would you not talk about the hollocaust because you don't like it ?
Before their defeat the British didn't care about canada that much. After it they cared a lot. Simcoe was defeated at Yorktown that's why he made Toronto in 1783. That is also Yorktown that created Ontario ! You cannot hide this.
Yorktown 1781 is the foundation and arrival of the British defeated in Canada, it's call reality and you cannot change reality because you don't like it. How do you hide this fact that suddently 50 000 people suddently move and you don't tell why ?
I understand that this is news for you but it none the less the thruth. And people deserve to know this.
The so-call american revolution amputated all former new france territory south of the great lake area ! This is not un-important to know that it's the British defeat that lost New France Territory in the US, not Quebec 1759.
And a full regiment of Quebecker were at Yorktown it's not what can be described as neutral And a son of a quebecker was in the Navy battle in front of Yorktown. Louis-Philippe de Vaudreuil you can check all this in google.com if you dont beleive me. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 209.217.115.66 ( talk • contribs) .
i suggest to put this picture :
Moraine Lake by Lake Louise Alberta Canada.jpg
thank you....took from the deuth version of canada —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.156.166.50 ( talk • contribs) .
I think we are almost there. What I think we still need to do:
What does anyone think about how to deal with the subsections in the politics section, and does anyone have references for the language and military sections? -- Jeff3000 13:20, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
So I've moved the National Symbols section to National symbols of Canada and merged a considerably shortened Sports section into the Culture section. Suggestions still on the table:
Hah, my own comment just demonstrated it was only a typo, not an major mistake. I'll fix it. -- TheMightyQuill 19:44, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
Isn't this redundant?
On the Canada page how come the use of "The Right Honourable" is used for John A Macdonald but not for the Prime minister? Also Her Majesty and Her Excellency have been taken off. I think the proper titles should be used therefore I’m going to add them back on. Matthew Samuel Spurrell 14:44, 8 May 2006 {UTC}
I compared the length of certain sections with that of Austrlia, and this is what I got (++ means much longer, + means slightly longer, +/- about the same, - slightly shorter, -- much shorter):
This kind of tells us where we have to work on. Culture could be expanded, the Origin of the Name can be expanded (it kind of seems like a stub right now), and poltics could be shortened. -- Jeff3000 23:34, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
Thoughts? Thanks! E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 10:36, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
Would anyone be against me reverting this edit in the history section. I think that info doesn't need to be there. -- Jeff3000 12:32, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
I think for the most part E Pluribus Anthony's comments about what we are missing before we try to become featured are covered except for the length of the Politics section, and the inline references. I was thinking that I could go through and put the citation needed tag whereever I thought we need an inline citation and hopefully together we could get rid of most of them. The problem with this scheme is that for a week or so the page will look sloppy due to the many citation needed tags throughout. But I think this is simplier than listing all the places were we need inline statements in the talk page. Thoughts? -- Jeff3000 05:20, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
Rjensen has added some military references to Canada/References which I'm greatful for, but I believe for the content on this page there are too many references. In the past there was too many references on Sports and it was cut down. They are not supposed to be all-encompassing. I've also reverted the addition of those references as Further reading in this article. A further reading section is amalgamated with references when there is a Notes section, as discussed already in Talk:Canada/Archive8#More reference talk and WP:CITE. Also given the short section on the Military in this page, the amount of Further reading he added was much too long. They should go in the appropriate main article. -- Jeff3000 13:33, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
This article seems to put the govener general above the prime minster. The govener general is just a formalade in Canada and holds no real power. She gets paid to go out wave her hand to a few people, and goes on living in her mansion.Just wanted to clear that up —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.137.126.72 ( talk • contribs) .
I've been trying to find a reference that states that Canada has participated in the most peackeeping missions, and I haven't found one yet. There are some references that state that Canada has provided the most number of personnel in peacekeeping missions (see [4])
There also a statement in the Military History of Canada article stating "Canada participated in every UN peacekeeping effort from when they began until 1989, and has since then continued to play a major role." and attributes that to Desmond Morton's, A Military History of Canada. I can't make the leap from that statement to the fact that Canada has participated in the most peacekeeping missions (especially that recently, we haven't been participating that much at all).
Does anyone have a reference or have Morton's book to check it out for a more direct statement?. Thanks -- Jeff3000 04:01, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
This is currently listed as Federal parliamentary democracy and constitutional monarchy. I think this might be too much information for the infobox. Based on a small sampling, it seems like a significant majority of the articles on other Commonwealth Realms simply say "Constitutional Monarchy". This is also true for most other European monarchies that I looked at, and Japan. Likewise, most articles for democratic republics say "Federal Republic" (USA, Germany, India), "Unitary Republic" (France), or just "Republic" (Italy). Portugal does say "Parliamentary Democracy".
I am in favour of shortening the description in the infobox to Federal constitutional monarchy.
I have deleted an awkward clause in the Government section that says that the COnservative Party "has formed governments in the past, as did its predecessor paries...." The modern Conservative Party is a new political party that was formed after the Canadian Alliance and the Progressive Conservative Party dissolved themselves. It is not the legal contiuation of either party. The PC Party wentr through several name changes during its long history, including Liberal-Conservative Party, Conservative Party, Unionist Party, and so on. But that party was dissolved in 2003. The sentence could have been re-worked to make reference to the modern COnservative Party's predecessors, but is it needed here? The section is about the current government, not about the history of Canada's government. I think the article is better off without this. Ground Zero | t 14:01, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
A single-term 'Unionist' Party of Robert Borden was formed as a union of Conservatives and conscription-supporting Liberals during World War I.
While this is interesting, is it really relevant to the main Canada page, rather than Politics of Canada or History of Canada? -- TheMightyQuill 14:07, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
Sorry I deleted a perfectly good copyedit... That was simply an editing conflict. iggy talk 01:50, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
I think we need more images: One in the Foreign Relations & Military section, and one in the Economy section. I haven't yet been able to find anything that is suitable, and also bright and clear (to match with the other good photos in this article). -- thirty-seven 03:07, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Instead of Juno Beach how about the Battle of the Somme? The Great War was the most devestating war for Canada and one of the country's greatest accomplishments so I figure a photo should be of it. Matthew Samuel Spurrell 17 May 2006 12:44 (UTC)
Other possibilities
I've created a sandbox of the Foreign Relations and Military section that includes the Peacekeeping monument image. Please take a look to see if this looks appropriate for this article. -- thirty-seven 05:54, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
. "I think that since World War II is more recent, (the picture is at the end of the History section), and that Canada entered the war on it's own, it makes more sense to have a WWII picture." The Great War was far more important for this country’s history than the Second World War. It was the first war of it's kind and the greatest war Canada fought. A lot more Canadians died in the Great War than the second and it was the first time that Canadians fought together with Canadians. Canada did far more in that war than the second and I think was more valuable. The Canadians were gassed, machine gunned, starved, and had to live in trenches throughout the year caked in mud and lice with rats eating their friends below their feet. WW2 had massive tanks and planes and other armoured vehicles. They didn't live in trenches and their objectives were clearer and the soldiers were far more prepared. Also it was during the Great Depression if there was no depression I doubt as many Canadians would have enlisted. Matthew Samuel Spurrell 18 May 2006 10:24 (UTC)
I know that this article should stay relatively brief, but if at all possible I would like to see the Military history expanded a little. Canadian participation in the Great War was a monumental event in Canadian history. We should mention that and link to some of the very famous battles like, Battle of the Somme, Second Battle of Ypres, Paschendale. Also, In Flander's Fields, Remembrance Day, etc. At the same time we shouldn't discount WW2. The fact that they had clear objectives is no kind of detriment. It was the first war in which they actively commanded operations. See Operation Totalise. Dieppe Raid, Italian Campaign (World War II), Attacks on Canadian mainland - think this might have had something to do with the amount of volunteers? Juno Beach (should be mentioned, the Canadians made great gains on the "day of days"), along with Battle of the Scheldt... I like Image:Reconciliation-ottawa.jpg and Image:Peacekeeping monument.jpg but I also propose Image:Canadian landings at Juno Beach.jpg and Image:Acrossthescheldt.jpg. Battle of Kapyong was a notable battle in Korea in which Canadian units distinguished themselves and was one of the last large scale battles Canadian forces had a large commitment in. heqs 19:48, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
I think that this section is now more than a little crowded with images. Jkelly 17:36, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
It's definitely crowded for such a small section. I think the peacekeeping monument is the weakest of the three images, but leaving only two military images doesn't give a very full picture of Canadian Foreign Relations. -- TheMightyQuill 17:43, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Is there anyone other than Jeff that opposes including both Image:Canadian_tank_and_soldiers_Vimy_1917.jpg and Image:Canadian landings at Juno Beach.jpg in the history section like I did here? I do not think that this overburdens the article with images. Thanks, heqs 14:46, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
Just so you know: A the 0th is a sockpuppet of E Pluribus Anthony as established by CheckUser Both have been active on this talk page. Andeggs 11:23, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
There are three inline references left to be found. These are in topics that either I don't know of online resources, or I don't have the required books to find. Can someone look into it, especially the one about amalgating the French (a good history book should have it). -- Jeff3000 14:02, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
Doesn't "Canada is the world's second-largest country in total area, after Russia." need a citation? Same with "Toronto, Ontario is one of the world's most multicultural cities." Not sure, so I thought I'd ask rather than putting a citation needed tag. -- TheMightyQuill 18:07, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
I think this article is now ready to be a Feature Article Candidate. Before I go ahead and list it, does anyone have any more problems with the page? -- Jeff3000 02:16, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps I'm missing something, but it seems like the history section kind of finishes up around the end of WWII - except for some mention of Quebec's wranglings with independence. What about Expo '67, the adoption of the Maple Leaf flag, the '82 patriation of the Constitution, etc.? We don't need detailed explanation of these events, but they're kind of important moments in Canadian history, no? -- gbambino 15:58, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
How bout a mention of the 2010 olympics. heqs 16:06, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Oh, I see. Well, what can summarise the social changes in Canada after the end of the second World War? Commonly it seems to be:
This could, of course, be summed up in a paragraph or two, I think. -- gbambino 19:12, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
One possible edit is to shorten the list of things that helped increase support for Quebec independence (I think the list is too long and detailed for a summary article), and add one or two concise sentences on increased immigration, the growth of nationalism, and the shift of power (which is debatable, given the recent election results). -- Jeff3000 19:37, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Congratulations to all involved. Jkelly 23:16, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm not sure how important it is for achieving Featured Article status, but doesn't it seem as though the article is getting clogged with pictures? It seems especially bad in the Foreign relations and miltary, Language, and culture sections. -- gbambino 17:37, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm not sure what the problem with my edit was. How did it affect the following section? As far as I could see the Geography and climate section remained identical after my condensing of Provinces and territories. Frankly, its reverted form looks terrible. -- gbambino 18:44, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
What about getting rid of the table, it already exists in the Provinces and territories of Canada page. -- Jeff3000 19:12, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
There is a big problem with the new table, anyone with a resolution width of less that 1030 (I measured using Firefox) will get a horizontal scrollbar. This is not only bad Wikipedia practice, it's bad web design. We need to make the table fit in at least 800px. --
Jeff3000
22:43, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
The new, simplified table of provinces and territories looks good, but it is too wide. I don't think we can get it to fit properly simply by shrinking the text. Also, if possible, the geopolitical map should be returned to a larger size. -- thirty-seven 22:45, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
At the very least, this section should list and link all the provinces and territories, as the US and Australia articles do. If we are not also listing their geographical and political regions, perhaps they could be listed by official precedence. -- thirty-seven 00:07, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
From the Provinces and Territories section: The federal government can initiate national policies that the provinces opt out of, but this rarely happens in practice. I think this statement if ambiguous. What rarely happens in practice: that the federal government initiates such programs that the provinces can opt out of, or that provinces do opt out of such programs? -- thirty-seven 19:03, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
The economy boomed during the war, as Canada grew closer to the United States and even began subsidizing the British Treasury.
What the heck is the British Treasury? heqs 19:10, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
What about giving a quick rundown of the Category:terrestrial biomes in Canada? e.g. everything from tundra to Temperate rain forest. This seems to be missing from the daughter article, but it seems like the natural basic info to include. heqs 19:48, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
From the article: "Due to its colonial past, Canadian culture has historically been heavily influenced by English, French, Irish, Scottish, and First Nations cultures and traditions." Due to its colonial past, Canadian culture has historically been heavily influenced by... First Nations cultures? No. Clearly that doesn't make sense. So I've put a "better" revision in there, but I expect it to be "edited mercilessly". AshleyMorton 04:20, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
Please discuss changes before changing the format of the references. There has already been discussion, and the manual of style is a guideline, not a policy. -- Jeff3000 14:38, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
Given the discussion on the AFD page, it seems like the Canada/References page will be deleted, and so I'll stick with that and have the references on this page, but regarding the deletion of the locations of publication, why delete information that makes the reference more correct. The correct citation style is to include the location, when it is known. -- Jeff3000 22:56, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
There are too many and some can be put under others such as "provinces" under "geography", "foreign relations" under "government" and "holidays" can be put under "culture" if it even needs to have a place. Skinnyweed 20:04, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
In the featured article nomination page, Peta states that most recently featured countires don't have the holiday section, do people think this adds much to an article? If this is true, I think we should remove the Holiday section. I had thought that this section was a requirement imposed on the Canada article by some template/standard that needed to be met in order to achieve featured article status. Generally, Canadian holidays are not especially noteworthy or different compared to other Western, historically-Christian, nations. Canada Day/ Dominion Day is already mentioned in the article. Remembrance Day could be mentioned in the Military section, if contributors think that would be worthwhile. -- thirty-seven 03:22, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Since Canada is a completely separate kingdom from the United Kingdom is it correct to call Queen Elizabeth of Canada Elizabeth II as this article on Canada does? Because Canada never had a monarch called Elizabeth before her, so she is not really Elizabeth II in Canada. There have been similiar situations like this in personal unions, when two completely separate kingdoms share the same monarch. When King James VI of Scotland became King of England and King of Ireland in 1603 he was still called James VI in Scotland but he was just called James in England and in Ireland because those two kingdoms were still completely separate from Scotland and they had never had a king called James before. And when King Henry VIII of England became King of Ireland in 1541 he was still called Henry VIII in England but he was technically just Henry in Ireland because the two kingdoms were still technically completely separate from each other and Ireland had never had a king called Henry before. FDR 11:11 PM May 22 2006 (UTC)
Maybe she does call herself that, but if she does that is not correct. Because King James VI of Scotland when he became King of England and King of Ireland in 1603 called himself James in those two kingdoms instead of James VI and when King Henry VIII of England became King of Ireland in 1541 he called himself Henry in that kingdom instead of Henry VIII. FDR | Talk 12:19 AM, May 23 2006 (UTC)
And incidentally her title is not Queen of England, which came out of use in 1707 because of the Act of Union, but Queen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. And your mentioning Scotland was not relevant to what we are arguing about because that is part of the United Kingdom. FDR 12:22 AM, May 23 2006 (UTC)
Oh, so their monarchies are still British, huh? That would mean that they are still British colonies, which they obviously are not. Why can you not understand a personal union, its a simple concept. When two completely separately and independent kingdoms share the same monarch. Read Wikipedia's article about it. It is possible for two completely separate kingdoms to have the same monarch and still be separate. FDR 10:26 PM May 24 2006 (UTC)
The only examnple that can be cited for describing it as a kingdom is a 19th century document that was rejected. In what way is Canada a kingdom? After all, it has no independent monarchy of its own. TharkunColl 23:54, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
Presumably you mean couldn't care less - what you actually wrote makes no sense. Those books you cite are not legal or constitutional documents, and judging by the context are clearly using the term metaphorically (the British state has, I believe, been called "the best disguised republic in the world" - that doesn't mean it actually is a republic). As for the Brits feeling that the Americans would care what term was used in the 1860s - I find this difficult to believe and unless someone can provide historical sources for this assertion I shall remove the whole paragraph. The fact remains, that for whatever reason, the proposal to call Canada a kingdom was rejected. You may wish to argue that this was in deference to U.S. opinion - maybe it was, maybe it wasn't - but the proposal was still rejected, and Canada never received the title of "kingdom". Your argument, Gbambino, is that any country with a king or queen is a kingdom - I understand your argument, but it is simply not true. Ancient Sparta, Carthage, and Rome each continued to have kings even after they became republics. Conversely, both Spain and Greece in the 20th century spent periods when they were legally and constitutionally kingdoms, but had no monarch. Basically, the status of "kingdom" can only be determined by reference to statute - something that you are fond of quoting when it comes to the legal position of the crown in Canada - which means that a "kingdom" is a state which so descrbes itself constitutionally. Canada does not. Therefore, it isn't. TharkunColl 08:08, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
Definition of kingdom on dictionary.com "A political or territorial unit ruled by a sovereign." Definition of kingdom on Merriam-Webster.com "a politically organized community or major territorial unit having a monarchical form of government headed by a king or queen". Canada is a political unit. Canada is ruled by a sovereign. Canada has a monarchical form of government head by a king or queen. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it is a duck. -- Jeff3000 17:29, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
I would like to step up in 'opposition' to the use of "kingdom" as well. Here's how my thought process works: First, do a thought experiment - picture yourself asking 10 people on the street whether Canada is a "kingdom". I believe that most would say no, at least right off the bat. Now, that doesn't prove anything. However, what it does is establish on which side of this argument the burden of proof lies. The question "how is Canada not a kingdom?", used in the argument above, is therefore out the window. I do not need to prove to anyone that the moon 'does' orbit the earth - that's, currently, accepted knowledge. If there were honest debate on thtat topic, it would be the other side who had to prove their point.
...and the only tools we are allowed to use here are those of reference - a good logical flow based on definitions (such as "Realm = dominion = kingdom") is irrelevant - that's original research, at best. It might be able to establish that it "should" be called a kingdom, or even that whoever did not call it a kingdom in the first place was an idiot. What it cannot do is force Canada to be a kingdom.
In addition, to tag on another counterexample, even India, when under direct colonial rule, was not a kingdom. Victoria was the Queen of the United Kingdom, but the Empress of India - because India was part of the Empire, not the Kingdom. AshleyMorton 17:54, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
AshleyMorton 18:44, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
However, to be completely honest, I don't think this is really a necesary fight. Even those of us who oppose are not suggesting that the article say "Canada is not a kingdom." Edit history bears this out.
Beside, in an encyclopedic sense, is there any need to include this specific word? I'd like to propose "monarchy" or some other possibility to replace, because I think it's clear that that sentence is really about the country becoming sovereign, not about it becoming a kingdom. Can there be some sort of compromise that will fit within your beliefs? AshleyMorton 18:44, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
Another fallacy in your argument, AshleyMorton, is that you compared India under Victoria to the current Canadian monarchy. India was merely a British colonial possession. Canada is a completely independent country. It is not a valid comparison. FDR 2:14 PM May 25, 2006 (UTC)
Well, yes I can. The person who discharges all the powers and duties of head of state in Canada is an appointed politician. His office is neither for life, and nor is it hereditary. He is chosen by the elected government. That doesn't sound much like a monarchical form of government to me. Why on earth is anybody trying to squeeze Canada into medieval European models? Why can't it be something new and different? Neither a republic or a kingdom, but something else? TharkunColl 18:48, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
Canada has no links to the UK any longer, despite the fact that the two independent, sovereign kingdoms share the same monarch. Can you not appreciate that you have contradicted yourself in the same sentence? Is it pure coincidence that out of all the billions of people on earth, the Canadians should have picked for their titular head of state the one person who also just happens to be queen of the UK - Canada's historical colonial power? Of course not! Canada is not a kingdom because it has no monarch of its own, and is still totally dependent on the British to supply them (it could, of course, change this at any time). TharkunColl 20:37, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
There you go with that "they happen" thing again, as if it's little more than an accident that the Canadians have chosen the British monarch as their titular head of state. Let me ask you a question: what nationality is the queen? As for Pennsylvania not being called a state - you're wrong. It's called a state by the U.S. government, which is the sovereign entity in this particular case. Canada is a sovereign entity, and does not call itself a kingdom. For Wikipedia to describe it thus is therefore incorrect. TharkunColl 20:50, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
Are we talking about "thereby making it a sovereign kingdom..."? This is plainly just misleading - as though it MADE it into a kingdom. Using the term here, even if it were technically correct, serves no good purpose for readers & is just confusing -- JimWae 21:03, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
While I have to admit that I don't immediately grasp many of the arguments that User:TharkunColl is making above, I nevertheless suggest that we may be giving a kind of "undue emphasis" when we use the word "kingdom" in the article. I'm not really interested in researching the "truth of the matter"; it is just that the word is used relatively infrequently in summaries of Canada that it can read as if we're making some sort of point by including it. Jkelly 21:22, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
Oman, Japan, and Kuwait have monarchs that are called sultans, emperors (at least in English), and emirs respectively. I'm not sure of your point here - are you trying to suggest that all these titles from non-Western cultures should actually be translated as "king"? Not all monarches are kings, even in Europe. Monaco has princes, and Lichtenstein has grand dukes. In the past there have also been emperors. But your assertions about the monarchy are just wrong, anyway. Does the British monarch have no influence outside the UK? You are constantly reminding us that she also has a constitutional role in Canada. You appear to be treating her as if she were two different people, whereas in fact she is one person with many different titles. I hesitate to even call them jobs, because she only has one full time job - being quuen of the UK. You have asserted that I have not proved my case, but the fact is that I have. It is you who haven't, and the burden of proof must be on you who wants to include such a contentious word. Please provide an official government source that describes Canada as a kingdom. That is all we need to keep the word in. TharkunColl 22:04, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
That's just a quotation from somebody's book. I have no issues with anyone calling Canada, or indeed anywhere else, a kingdom metaphorically. What I'm objecting to is the use of the word in what is supposed to be a factual encyclopedia. And, if the "Queen of Canada" is a completely separate position from that of the Queen of the UK, then why do they always have to be the same person? If you think that two positions that must always be held by the same individual are "completely separate", then you have a pretty weird definition of the word "separate". As I have pointed out already, for all practical purposes Canada does not have a monarchical form of government, because it does not have its own resident monarch. TharkunColl 22:32, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
First of all, even though it apparently supports my case, the issue of whether the monarch is female is a red herring. There is no such word as "queendom" in English and - sexist though it undoubtedly is - the word kingdom is always used instead.
Canada is undoubtedly a constitutional monarchy - its constitution specifies that its head of state is a monarch. It is also a dominion, because that was the term chosen in the 1860s to describe it when it became an independent state. Yes, there was a proposal to call it a kingdom, and this proposal was made in good faith by serious politicians and constitutional thinkers. For whatever reason (and the reason doesn't matter), this proposal was rejected. The terms "dominion" and "kingdom" are not synonymous in English, because even a moment's thought will show that "dominion" has a far wider and consequently less specific application than "kingdom". One could say "Victoria's kingdom included Great Britain and Ireland" or "Victoria's dominion included a quarter of the world". Or, in a slightly different way, "Henry VIII's kingdom was called England" or "Hitler's dominion was called the Third Reich". In both of these double examples, one could substitute dominion for kingdom and still retain accuracy, but not the other way round.
The people who organised the constitutional arrangements for Canada in the 1860s were legislative pioneers. Never before had a British colony, or in this case a federation of a group of British colonies, been granted such a measure of self rule as to constitute effective independence (the case of the USA obviously doesn't count because that was contested). They could, very easily, have gone down the route of calling Canada a kingdom, in which case we wouldn't be having this debate. But they didn't. They chose instead to use a far less specific word, namely, dominion. This was the first time that the term "dominion" had ever been used as part of the name of a country, but it set a precedent. No former British colony, or federation of former British colonies, has ever been called a kingdom - those that retain the king/queen as head of state have always, instead, been called dominions. (NB - I am, of course, aware that a few former British colonies, such as Tahiti, are indeed called kingdoms. But these are the ones with their own native monarchs. These exceptions prove the rule.)
I am also fully aware that under law, the Crown of Canada is separate from the Crown of the UK, etc. But despite this legal separation, the fact remains that the Canadians have chosen the same person as the British monarch to be their own monarch. Notice that the previous sentence was rather convoluted, and it would have been far better English to simply say "the Canadians have chosen the British monarch to be their own monarch" - were it not for the fact that certain pedants might point out that the this was somehow wrong. What such pedants seem to be overlooking, is that whereas the crowns and offices might indeed be legally separate, the person isn't. There are not two (or more) different queens, but one single person who holds a number of different titles and offices. And furthermore, the only office that she actually exercises in her own person is that of Queen of the UK, where she lives and where she receives her income from. Her legal functions in Canada are exercised by somebody else, who is chosen by the Canadians themselves. And furthermore, at no time could the queen ever take these powers back and exercise them herself - the Canadian constitution would simply not allow it.
In short, to some up:
Canada is not a kingdom. Kingdoms are something different. Canada has no need to follow medieval European naming conventions. It is new and unique. TharkunColl 09:21, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
Jumping back into the debate...
How about "constitutional monarchy"? TharkunColl 11:30, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
As the subject says, let's settle this on the talk page. Putting it back into the article when no consensus has emerged is probably against policy (I don't really know - I haven't been around Wikipedia this long), but I know for certain that it's not acting in good faith. Gbambino added it again, I have removed it again, and I have no interest in wasting time doing so again. AshleyMorton 16:03, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
Canada has never had its own monarchy, it never was a kingdom. It's head of state is that of the United Kingdom. BlueKangaroo 20:08, 26 May 2006 (UTC).
gbambino seems intent on a revert war to refer to Canada as a kingdom - that was never the official title of Canada, was actually rejected by the crown, has never been used by the gov't, and sounds strange to the vast majority of Canadians. He keeps inserting the term as flat-out description of Canada. Even were the titles synonymous, that is NOT the title of Canada. The correct title is dominion. This seems to be approaching WP:Point -- JimWae 16:15, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
Having a source is essential, but sources can be found for nearly anything. It is still a POV and cannot be presented as fact. There are significant differences between the monarchy's relationship with the country that does call itself a kingdom (UK) and the one she has with any of the dominions. Calling it a kingdom is an attempt to make a polemic point, not part of what belongs in an encyclopedia - except perhaps as a separate article outlining the arguments on both sides. -- JimWae 16:24, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
"I would consider that a completely valid formulation" - *sigh*, 'I agree' would have done. BlueKangaroo 20:13, 26 May 2006 (UTC).
Did Macdonald call it a kingdom after the BNA Act, or before, or both? Another formulation would be something like "Macdonald and other Canadians requested the new act refer to Canada as a kingdom, but this was rejected by the crown and instead the term dominion was used." -- JimWae 17:03, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
I think the discussion is relevant here as well, because Canada was the very first "commonwealth realm" to gain independence from the UK, and its constitutional arrangements set a precedent for all the others. Sir John Macdonald may well have wanted Canada to be a kingdom, but after his proposal was rejected such a term became unthinkable for his later counterparts in Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, Newfoundland, etc. TharkunColl 17:58, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
This country is a Kingdom as by definition. Dominion is used in name and is what Canada is and a Dominion is just another word for Kingdom. I have always called this country a Dominion maybe because I'm older and was a common thing to call our country and also it is the official name the Dominion of Canada. Whether people believe it is or not I think people just don't want it to be. You can cite up as many documents and books as you want or the constitutional act of 1982. It does not state we are a dominion or kingdom therefore we are some how not. These are all tricks by the liberals to try and take away one more element of Canada's past. I know Wikipedia is not supposed to be biased but it has to be you either support our Queen and our ties with the United Kingdom and its people or you wish to become completely separate and forget about our Queen and our motherland. The United Kingdom is Canada and Canada is the United Kingdom we are one in the same maybe one day some of you will realise this and can be proud again of our British ties.
It is quite clear our forefathers wished us to be loyal British subjects unless you are stupid and blind you may not understand this. I don't think it was anyone's intention to cut off our ties to the land which they came from or the land their parents came from and the people which built the new land they were in. There are two ways to look at this country either its history began in 1867 or it has continued from a few thousand years ago in Britannia, the choice is yours. Also Yes the monarch has referred to its kingdom. King George VI even called Canada his kingdom and that he was the King of Canada that is where we got the Queen of Canada title from. Matthew Samuel Spurrell 26 May 2006 11:51 {UTC}
Again, I'm perfectly willing to accept that Canada is a kingdom, and it's indisputable that MacDonald wanted it to be called a Kindom, but I'm not sure that's so important to go on the main page. It's already there under Canada's name. Why does it matter what MacDonald wanted but didn't get? It's interesting trivia, but not really important.
People on the street might not regularly refer to canada as a constitutional monarchy, but if you have them a choice between, kingdom and constitutional monarchy, they would undoubtedly choose the latter.
Were not talking about a close race here. -- TheMightyQuill 19:16, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
Calling Canada a kingdom is contested - with some support. It has not been established as "a fact", which in this case would require agreement by scholars with hardly any exception. It is also much more "abnormal" than calling it a constitutional monarchy - which most Canadians would at least recognize as correct. It is of little relevance what Macdonald wanted to call it, or even what a king or two might have said in passing - official documents do NOT call Canada a kingdom. Calling Canada a kingdom (even if technically correct, which has not been agreed upon), would require explanation & support within the article - in which case both sides would need to be represented. It is sufficient to describe Canada to call it a constitutional monarchy, & to point out the title "dominion" applies. Dealing with "kingdom" is really more appropriate material for the several subarticles that deal with the monarchy in Canada & Canada's name -- JimWae 19:27, 26 May 2006 (UTC) It could be relevant to state that Macdonald wanted it to be called a kingdom, but then it would be relevant to point out that the term was rejected -- JimWae 19:31, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
I think that this discussion should be moved to the talk page on the Commonwealth Realms article Talk:Commonwealth Realm. Because this argument applies not only to Canada but to all of the Commonwealth realms. Since if Canada is a kingdom, so are all the other realms, but if it is not a kingdom, then they are not either. My view is that Canada is a kingdom. FDR 15:45, May 26, 2006 (UTC)
I can't believe we are having this argument again. It is perfectly correct to say "Canada is a constitutional monarchy" and "Canada is a kingdom" (though the letter reads a bit strange when it has a queen, and is less accurate than the former). But "Kingdom of Canada" is not the official title of the country; nor is "Dominion of Canada". DJ Clayworth 19:47, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
Once again, I do not think that this is the correct place to have this discussion. Because this issue applies to all of the Commonwealth Realms, not just Canada, and the users on this page are getting arguments about things that have nothing to do with Canada. We should come to a mutual agreement to delete this segment of this talk page and then repost it on the Commonwealth Realms article's talk page. FDR FDR:MyTalk 15:50, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
That would be fine, to. But I think that we need in the future to discuss this issue on that talk page, rather than this one. FDR MyTalk 16:05 May 26 2006
This is a very stupid discussion to be having. Canada is a sovereign state with a queen. Any nation like that is by definition a kingdom. That official Canadian documents do not call it that does not matter. They do not call it a dominion, a term which has not been used in Canada for decades, or a constitutional monarchy either. That is really the end of the argument. And you cannot say that Canada is not its own kingdom because of it sharing the same monarch as the United Kingdom because even when Scotland and Ireland shared the same monarch as England they were still considered their own kingdoms. This discussion needs to end. The article needs to state that Canada is a kingdom. End of discussion. FDR | MyTalk 19:57 May 26, 2006 (UTC)
uh.. the official documents most certainly have called Canada a dominion -- JimWae 01:47, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
I have no source for King George VI remarks but I am certain he said it on his Royal tour here in 1939. It wasn't just a passing remark either I think he really meant it. That he just didn't want to be seen as some foreign power but a leader of Canada and all other subjects abroad. The "Kingdom of Canada" I don't think is our official name but saying Canada is a Kingdom is quite correct. That should be obvious look it up in a dictionary and that is what we are. A constitutional monarchy is still a Kingdom it just applies to the powers of the King itself but doesn't mean the Kingdom is gone. I still say Dominion of Canada is our name I'm not going to change it on here but I believe that is what the people wanted to call themselves and that was chosen. That is what I was taught anyway Canada was just a shortened version but we all knew we were the Dominion of Canada but I guess now people have forgot our title.
Yes this does have to do with "Britishness" if people were not so fussy about being British subjects why do we have these problems on here and in this country? Surely those who are loyalists don't mind being a Kingdom or using the word Dominion. Why did this country have to change its flag and anthem if people didn't mind being British subjects? I think that is what it comes down too because there is no evidence to say we are not a kingdom or that the Dominion of Canada is not our proper name. Does Canada just define itself now against what the United States is or our sense of nationalism is beer advertisements? How times have changed. Matthew Samuel Spurrell 26 May 2006 18:51 {UTC}
AshleyMorton, you said that Canada is not a kingdom and then cited the comparison of India when it was a British colony having Victoria as its Empress to prove your point. Earlier in this discussion I replied that since India was a mere colony whereas Canada is an independent country it was not a valid comparison. What is your response to my point? FDR | FDR:MyTalk 26 May 2006 15:48
Okay, so I have a document produced by the government of Canada that states Canada became "a kingdom in her own right from Confederation onward." [12] This confirms that not only was Canada a kingdom at Confederation, but the use of the word "onward" means that it continued to be a kingdom after Confederation. Can this therefore be introduced into the history section: "The British North America Act created Canada as "a kingdom in her own right," referred to as "one dominion under the name of Canada", with four provinces..."
I should have remembered this material; it was distributed to schools across the country for the Queen's 2002 Golden Jubilee visit, and I have printed versions of it (in French and English) at home. -- gbambino 21:37, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
Once again, I can totally accept that Canada is a kingdom. What I don't accept is that the term needs to be used here.
My reasons:
1. It is confusing. The very fact that this discussion continues is evidence enough of that. Usage of the term does need explanation (moreso than constitutional monarchy, which is a much more widespread term).
2. No one has yet stated any reason why the more abnormal term needs to be used here.
Proposed Solutions:
1. The term should definitely be used (and explained) on
History of Canada and on
Monarchy in Canada but on this page it is confusing and unecessary.
3. Discussion over whether or not Canada is currently a kingdom (Personally, I think gbambino's evidence is pretty indisputable here) should be moved to
Talk:Monarchy in Canada. If anyone denies that Canada is a constitutional monarchy, we have a real problem.
--
TheMightyQuill
10:30, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
What? Why should we avoid stating something that is true because some people don't get it? The purpose of an encycopedia is to explain confusing things, not to avoid talking about them. Myself I don't see what is so confusing. Canada has a Queen, and (in the absence of the word queendom) is therefore a kingdom. Now is has to be said that constitutional monarchy is a much better term, since it distinguishes Canada from absolute monarchies. DJ Clayworth 20:52, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
Why should we avoid stating something that is true because some people don't get it? I'm not suggesting leaving it out of the encyclopedia. If someone is really interested if Canada can be considered a kingdom or not, whether MacDonald intended it to be called a kingdom, and many other related questions, they are quite able to look up Canadian Confederation, History of Canada, Monarchy in Canada and many other things. My point is that it isn't necessary to use the word kingdom on the main Canada page. Yes it's confusing, yes it should be explained (that's what encyclopedias are for) but I don't see why it needs to be explained here, and if a full explanation doesn't belong on this page, why mention it at all? The fact that Canada is a constitutional monarchy, and was officially called a Dominion is important for this page. Whether "kingdom" is a suitable synonym for "constitutional monarchy" and whether MacDonald prefered the term "kingdom" (even though both, imho, are true) is not important for this page. -- TheMightyQuill 10:07, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
We seem to be moving towards a consensus, that constitutional monarchy is a better description than kingdom, and we should prefer to use it, but that we can use kingdom if there is a reason. DJ Clayworth 14:38, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm all for further explanation in other articles, but the reasoning behind this point still eludes me: Yes it's confusing, yes it should be explained... What, exactly, is confusing about the word "kingdom"? What, exactly, is confusing about the point that Canada became a kingdom in its own right after the passing of the BNA act? If its understandable enough to be used in a government-produced education pamphlet sent to school kids, why is it suddenly akin to quantum physics here? -- gbambino 19:53, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
Gbambino, how can you suggest it's not confusing? There are a number of users on this page that know a fair amount about Canada who are confused by the term, whereas everyone here would be happy with "constitutional monarchy." Don't you think that indicates some element of confusion? The term is not regularly used to describe Canada. I don't care if you can cite 10 or 20 examples of it being used it books, that doesn't change the fact that it's not commonly used to describe Canada' even though it could be legitimately. So give it a rest okay? You still haven't given any reason why it's important to use the term kingdom. -- TheMightyQuill 07:26, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm just going to preview the next 4-6 posts, hopefully to save time, because this series has happened at least three times before:
SO I would like to actually propose a Support/Oppose vote for "kingdom" - to be replaced with the words "constitutional monarchy" wherever it's reasonable, and some other construction as we supposedly-intelligent people can produce for anywhere that the language makes CM an awkward term. I would exempt from this exclusion direct quotations, such as the Sir John A one.
I'm not going to start the voting, because I don't know if there's a process that I should be following for this, or even if my proposal to have a vote is a good idea. What do you folks think? AshleyMorton 11:56, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
This strikes as phenominally silly. Canada is, of course, a kingdom, the same way that a monarchy with an emperor is an empire, a monarchy with a prince is a principality, etc. Canada has been a kingdom since 1931 (not 1867). It is not, however, commonly called the Kingdom of Canada either officially or traditionally. I hate to use a comparison with the US, but compare the sound of the United States of America is a federation versus Federation of the United States of America. Peter Grey 23:15, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
Is the queen head of state of each of the provinces as well, in a role unconnected with her role as queen of Canada? Surely this must be the case, as the provinces have a legal, sovereign existence in their own right, which cannot be altered by the federal government. In which case, if she can be rightly called Queen of Newfoundland (etc.), then why is not Newfoundland a kingdom? TharkunColl 15:21, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
Not that this is necessarily part of the discussion above, but I'd like to start a list of sources here which point to Canada being a kingdom. This information may prove useful here, or on other Canada related pages.
Hey guys - congrats on passing FAC! I have a question about one of the references that's listed, for "National Holidays." I see that the section on Holidays has been removed; does this reference still apply to anything, or can it be removed? Thanks! User: The Disco King (not signed in) 204.40.1.129 15:45, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
Well, you got it through the FAC process, but the first sentence I looked at is:
"Non-official languages are important in Canada, with 5,202,245 people listing a non-official language as a first language. Among the most important non-official first language ..."
"Non-official" occurs three times; "language(s) occurs four times. Would someone like to make it "compelling, even brilliant"? Sorry to gripe, but I thought it had been thoroughly fixed up.
heqs keeps putting up the military. There are far too many military pictures in this article (four of them), and too many images in the first place. I really don't think it needs to be there. If we are going to add extra pictures, they should be of something else that represents Canada since the military is already well represented. And unless someone else comments here in the next day or so, I will be removing the extra military picture once again. -- Jeff3000 14:03, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
This is just a very minor point, and I'm not seriously advocating changing the date, but I couldn't help noticing that her accession as Queen of Canada is given as 6 Feb 1952. The exact time of death of George VI is unknown, as he died during the night, but it would almost certainly have been before 5 a.m., and probably quite a long time before. In other words, while it was 6 Feb in the UK, it was - almost beyond question - still 5 Feb in Canada. TharkunColl 10:16, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Okay, 70.81.117.175 made two adjustments to "Demographics", both of which I've removed. The first was to lump together "Norwegian", "Swedish" and "Danish" (I think) to create a listing of "Scandinavian" on the list of Canada's common ancestries. There could, theoretically be support for this, but the fact that we don't lump any other categories together other than ones that the reference has already done. The reference is appropriately cited, and should be adhered to, because without sticking to it (or some better one, I suppose), we will get into a ridiculous discussion. HOWEVER, my greater concern was that the same IP user added a list called "Racial Makeup of Canada" to the end of the section. In it, he/she boiled down what is a very complex table (the one he/she cited: [13] to eight "Racial" categories (even though the reference refers to the statistics as concerning "ethnic origin"), and then listed them. This smells of an attempt to prove something, although I will reserve judgement because I have no interest in accusing someone of something. Still, if it seems POV then it should, at best, be modified, I believe. AshleyMorton 17:56, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Canada's GDP per capita(according to the GDP per capita list of each provinces) is C$42,000 meaning US$38,000. Is this the result of someone not changing the value due to the higher dollar value, or is Canada's GDP per capita currently $38,000. If so, should it be changed, and does this mean Canada's GDP is actually around 1.2 trillion US User:Sic_one
There are couple users who keep adding the "by area" qualifier to the second largest statement. It is unnecessary for that to be there. Given the definition of larger, that relates to size, what other thing can it be than area. Can it be volume? countries don't have volume. If someone was referring to population, then they would write Canada is the second-most populous country and not Canada is the second-largest country by population. I will be removing the statement again. -- Jeff3000 21:06, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
I cut the following new addition as being uncited, somewhat informal, and overly-detailed for the summary.
Perhaps it needs trimming, or placement into another article? Jkelly 23:11, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
I think it is fine as-is. Len W 07:12, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
24.42.193.126 has changed the unemployment stats. I asked him on his talk page to provide a verifiable source for the stats (which are probably right), but the given reference does not show that. I can't revert since I've reverted other vandalism three times today, but unless a verifiable source comes up, I will revert the value tomorrow. -- Jeff3000 22:03, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
Canada will appear on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on June 23, 2006 and Americans will respond with a resounding "Blame Canada" reference as their only knowledge of the country. This hour has 22 minutes and this dollar is 91 cents and rising. amen- Rainman71 05:15, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
An anon IP has just changed the sentence in Demographics regarding non-Christian religions from "The largest protestant denomination is the United Church of Canada; about 17% of Canadians declared no religious affiliation, and the remaining 6.3% were affiliated with religions other than Christianity, of which the largest is Islam (1.9%)." to add "... followed by Judaism (1.1%)." I am concerned about this, but I'm definitely willing to be outvoted (or at least outvoiced), so I thought I'd discuss it here first. First, here are the actual numbers from the 2001 Census (the anon's numbers are not wrong, but that's not the issue):
All others put together do not equal 100,000. As you can see, there is a massive drop from Christianity to the others. However, there is also a significant (almost half) from Islam to the "next tier". Then, we have Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism and Sikhism all very close by numbers - 300,000 +/- 30,000. I believe that including *only* Islam and Judaism is not appropriate, as it sets the cut-off at a very difficult-to-defend level. Thus, I see three options.
a) Nothing other than Christianity and some sort of "all others accound for 6.3%" statement. b) Mention Islam, but no others (basically a revert of the edit I'm discussing). c) Mention all of these ones above, perhaps with a table.
I personally support b), because I think it gives valuable information without clutter, and I think that a population larger than the population of my own home province (NL) deserves mention, yet it leaves details to other sub-articles. However, I would be also be satisfied with c). Anyone else? AshleyMorton 15:14, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
Jeff's already done it. Guess this is a) useless now and b) proof that I'm too wordy. AshleyMorton 15:21, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
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Discussion of Canada's official name Future TFA paragraph |
There is no clear rule in WP:MOS and there is a clear Canadian style in this manner. Just as Canadian english is used in this article, Canadian style should be used in the article. Commas are a cause of confusion in Canada because they can also mean periods, especially for english-speaking people living in Quebec. The space involves no confusion, and is not specifically against the Manual of Style (the manual of style says "may"). I will be changing it back. -- Jeff3000 02:38, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
I'm glad you recognize that even you make some mistakes. But back to the point, the number was being corrected to that which is cited by the IMF (the old number before the switch to the CIA number was not sourced, and not verifiable, and couldn't be included.) The CIA number is valid, but given that Canada was listed at number 11, that would go with the IMF numbers. Even MJCDetroit confirms that above. And as I mentioned above (please read my statement) I said that while I was changing the number to the verifiable number I noticed the difference in style and changed it. Could you assume a little good faith? -- Jeff3000 21:07, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
I think it's about time to revamp all the stat's. Some are listed at 2003, when there's already 2005 info. The GDP is cleary not of 2006 etc.....-- 24.80.25.37 21:32, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
Without wishing to be too nitpicking 'all countries were 'originally inhabited exclusively by aboriginal peoples'. That's what aboriginal means. DJ Clayworth 14:07, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
If we were to capitalize Aboriginal or use the legal status term 'Indian' or find some other way on indicating that we are refering to a certain race of people, that might solve this little problem. Jaderaid 00:06, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
Firsly, there was already a discussion of the commonwealth template (among others) here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Canada/Archive3#Templates
Since the Commonwealth Realms template is featured on Monarchy in Canada and since the Commonwealth is featured here already on Template:Canada ties, I think it should be removed. -- TheMightyQuill 15:58, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Ditto for the G8 Template. I'm going to be bold and remove them both. -- TheMightyQuill 16:02, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
I have made efforts to consolidate the history section in my sandbox area User:Maclean25/sandbox#History. The changes include removing unnecessary sub-headings, improving the conciseness of the writing, covering broad topics w/o going into details (that should be in the sub-article), and using strategic wikilinking (to avoid going into further detail). As this is supposed to be a summary style account I limited the structure to one paragraph for each of the following:
I considered everything after 2000 to be recent (ie. not history) and so should be placed in the appropriate section elsewhere in the article. There are several wikilinks that I could not figure out how to get in there. If there is any interest in working these ideas into the main article please contact me. -- maclean25 03:22, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
When did french become an official language? Talous 15:25, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
411junkie ( talk • contribs) added the Canadian celebrities section. At best, I think this belongs in Portal:Canada, since this appears to be an attempt at using Canada as the "main page" for the subject of Canada and this is the entire purpose of wikipedia:Portals. Also note that the first article in the list, List of Famous Canadian Actors, is authored by the same user and so inserting the link into a prominent place here is a species of vanity. I haven't looked too hard at that article, but the miscapitalisation and redness of the user's name indicate that they're simply inexperienced in these things. — Saxifrage ✎ 07:08, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Is there a reason why the Harper picture is so big? -- Jeff3000 20:18, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
Which version of the plural of referendum should we use in this article? (I started this discussion previously, but it is now archived.)
I recognize that both versions are acceptable in English. My preference is for referendums, because, as the referendum article states, the OED considers referendums to be preferable. I realize that this is not a big deal for this article, but I would like to settle this through discussion and consensus. Replies like "both versions are acceptable, so we must use 'referenda'" are unsatisfactory.
It is possible there are overlooked and uncorrected spelling errors in the above paragraph. Please do not dismiss my entire point if you find any. -- thirty-seven 06:16, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
This really isn't worth discussing. If you want to change it, thirty-seven, then change it. I for one don't care which you choose. I do care that people are wasting time discussing it though, because it won't make the article one whit better or worse whichever form is eventually chosen. -- Derek Ross | Talk 17:26, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
I vote for referenda. President Lethe 18:07, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
I solicited for opinions, and I got them. One for referenda and two I don't cares. I'm content to leave it as referenda in this article. -- thirty-seven 23:32, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
The Royal Anthem was replaced by the Canadian National Anthem. Probably it was still used in some schools intitially afterwards, but today there is virtually no one who sings the Royal Anthem, so a star or note should be put underneath saying that it is not practicised in public institutions. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.95.162.140 ( talk • contribs) .
The images of the canadarm and montreal biosphere seem out of place.. should they be removed? this article has quite a few pictures as it is. Mlm42 14:49, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
I was just thinking that the other day. Unless someone wants to write a subsection called "Canada's Space Program" I don't see why the article should have a photo of the Canadarm. -- TheMightyQuill 16:50, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
I agree that the biosphere picture seems out-of-place. I would prefer it replaced with a more "standard" photo of the city of Montreal. However, I think the Canadarm photo should remain, although it could be moved to a section talking about science, technology, or industry. -- thirty-seven 17:46, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
I think that this article should be featured. The League of Crazy M en 11:30, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
This subsection should be renamed and simplified. Since our goal is a very brief overview of the most important aspects of Canadian history, I think the focus on direct Canadian involvement should be removed. Although this is an interesting and important aspect of Canadian history that was previously unknown to me, I don't think it belongs in this article. Rather, this section should be pared down to focus on the most important effects of the American Revolution on Canada: namely the United Empire Loyalists and their impact on Canada. I have made these changes to the article. -- thirty-seven 22:41, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
The misconception that Canada was build by a victory over the French deserve to be explain.
The Defeat of the British is not unimportant to understand why pro-queen live in Canada and not in the US, only 2000 english came in Québec from 1759 to 1783, as oppose to 50 000 that came suddently because French had defeated the English at Yorktown...You cannot for ever hide a tsunami like this. In 150 years their was 60 000 quebecker in 1759. Suddently the Defeat of the British over the French at Yorktown (they were more numerous then the american) resulted in the same number of people comming suddently in Canada...how can you hide this fact ? Would you not talk about the hollocaust because you don't like it ?
Before their defeat the British didn't care about canada that much. After it they cared a lot. Simcoe was defeated at Yorktown that's why he made Toronto in 1783. That is also Yorktown that created Ontario ! You cannot hide this.
Yorktown 1781 is the foundation and arrival of the British defeated in Canada, it's call reality and you cannot change reality because you don't like it. How do you hide this fact that suddently 50 000 people suddently move and you don't tell why ?
I understand that this is news for you but it none the less the thruth. And people deserve to know this.
The so-call american revolution amputated all former new france territory south of the great lake area ! This is not un-important to know that it's the British defeat that lost New France Territory in the US, not Quebec 1759.
And a full regiment of Quebecker were at Yorktown it's not what can be described as neutral And a son of a quebecker was in the Navy battle in front of Yorktown. Louis-Philippe de Vaudreuil you can check all this in google.com if you dont beleive me. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 209.217.115.66 ( talk • contribs) .
i suggest to put this picture :
Moraine Lake by Lake Louise Alberta Canada.jpg
thank you....took from the deuth version of canada —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.156.166.50 ( talk • contribs) .
I think we are almost there. What I think we still need to do:
What does anyone think about how to deal with the subsections in the politics section, and does anyone have references for the language and military sections? -- Jeff3000 13:20, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
So I've moved the National Symbols section to National symbols of Canada and merged a considerably shortened Sports section into the Culture section. Suggestions still on the table:
Hah, my own comment just demonstrated it was only a typo, not an major mistake. I'll fix it. -- TheMightyQuill 19:44, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
Isn't this redundant?
On the Canada page how come the use of "The Right Honourable" is used for John A Macdonald but not for the Prime minister? Also Her Majesty and Her Excellency have been taken off. I think the proper titles should be used therefore I’m going to add them back on. Matthew Samuel Spurrell 14:44, 8 May 2006 {UTC}
I compared the length of certain sections with that of Austrlia, and this is what I got (++ means much longer, + means slightly longer, +/- about the same, - slightly shorter, -- much shorter):
This kind of tells us where we have to work on. Culture could be expanded, the Origin of the Name can be expanded (it kind of seems like a stub right now), and poltics could be shortened. -- Jeff3000 23:34, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
Thoughts? Thanks! E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 10:36, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
Would anyone be against me reverting this edit in the history section. I think that info doesn't need to be there. -- Jeff3000 12:32, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
I think for the most part E Pluribus Anthony's comments about what we are missing before we try to become featured are covered except for the length of the Politics section, and the inline references. I was thinking that I could go through and put the citation needed tag whereever I thought we need an inline citation and hopefully together we could get rid of most of them. The problem with this scheme is that for a week or so the page will look sloppy due to the many citation needed tags throughout. But I think this is simplier than listing all the places were we need inline statements in the talk page. Thoughts? -- Jeff3000 05:20, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
Rjensen has added some military references to Canada/References which I'm greatful for, but I believe for the content on this page there are too many references. In the past there was too many references on Sports and it was cut down. They are not supposed to be all-encompassing. I've also reverted the addition of those references as Further reading in this article. A further reading section is amalgamated with references when there is a Notes section, as discussed already in Talk:Canada/Archive8#More reference talk and WP:CITE. Also given the short section on the Military in this page, the amount of Further reading he added was much too long. They should go in the appropriate main article. -- Jeff3000 13:33, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
This article seems to put the govener general above the prime minster. The govener general is just a formalade in Canada and holds no real power. She gets paid to go out wave her hand to a few people, and goes on living in her mansion.Just wanted to clear that up —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.137.126.72 ( talk • contribs) .
I've been trying to find a reference that states that Canada has participated in the most peackeeping missions, and I haven't found one yet. There are some references that state that Canada has provided the most number of personnel in peacekeeping missions (see [4])
There also a statement in the Military History of Canada article stating "Canada participated in every UN peacekeeping effort from when they began until 1989, and has since then continued to play a major role." and attributes that to Desmond Morton's, A Military History of Canada. I can't make the leap from that statement to the fact that Canada has participated in the most peacekeeping missions (especially that recently, we haven't been participating that much at all).
Does anyone have a reference or have Morton's book to check it out for a more direct statement?. Thanks -- Jeff3000 04:01, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
This is currently listed as Federal parliamentary democracy and constitutional monarchy. I think this might be too much information for the infobox. Based on a small sampling, it seems like a significant majority of the articles on other Commonwealth Realms simply say "Constitutional Monarchy". This is also true for most other European monarchies that I looked at, and Japan. Likewise, most articles for democratic republics say "Federal Republic" (USA, Germany, India), "Unitary Republic" (France), or just "Republic" (Italy). Portugal does say "Parliamentary Democracy".
I am in favour of shortening the description in the infobox to Federal constitutional monarchy.
I have deleted an awkward clause in the Government section that says that the COnservative Party "has formed governments in the past, as did its predecessor paries...." The modern Conservative Party is a new political party that was formed after the Canadian Alliance and the Progressive Conservative Party dissolved themselves. It is not the legal contiuation of either party. The PC Party wentr through several name changes during its long history, including Liberal-Conservative Party, Conservative Party, Unionist Party, and so on. But that party was dissolved in 2003. The sentence could have been re-worked to make reference to the modern COnservative Party's predecessors, but is it needed here? The section is about the current government, not about the history of Canada's government. I think the article is better off without this. Ground Zero | t 14:01, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
A single-term 'Unionist' Party of Robert Borden was formed as a union of Conservatives and conscription-supporting Liberals during World War I.
While this is interesting, is it really relevant to the main Canada page, rather than Politics of Canada or History of Canada? -- TheMightyQuill 14:07, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
Sorry I deleted a perfectly good copyedit... That was simply an editing conflict. iggy talk 01:50, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
I think we need more images: One in the Foreign Relations & Military section, and one in the Economy section. I haven't yet been able to find anything that is suitable, and also bright and clear (to match with the other good photos in this article). -- thirty-seven 03:07, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Instead of Juno Beach how about the Battle of the Somme? The Great War was the most devestating war for Canada and one of the country's greatest accomplishments so I figure a photo should be of it. Matthew Samuel Spurrell 17 May 2006 12:44 (UTC)
Other possibilities
I've created a sandbox of the Foreign Relations and Military section that includes the Peacekeeping monument image. Please take a look to see if this looks appropriate for this article. -- thirty-seven 05:54, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
. "I think that since World War II is more recent, (the picture is at the end of the History section), and that Canada entered the war on it's own, it makes more sense to have a WWII picture." The Great War was far more important for this country’s history than the Second World War. It was the first war of it's kind and the greatest war Canada fought. A lot more Canadians died in the Great War than the second and it was the first time that Canadians fought together with Canadians. Canada did far more in that war than the second and I think was more valuable. The Canadians were gassed, machine gunned, starved, and had to live in trenches throughout the year caked in mud and lice with rats eating their friends below their feet. WW2 had massive tanks and planes and other armoured vehicles. They didn't live in trenches and their objectives were clearer and the soldiers were far more prepared. Also it was during the Great Depression if there was no depression I doubt as many Canadians would have enlisted. Matthew Samuel Spurrell 18 May 2006 10:24 (UTC)
I know that this article should stay relatively brief, but if at all possible I would like to see the Military history expanded a little. Canadian participation in the Great War was a monumental event in Canadian history. We should mention that and link to some of the very famous battles like, Battle of the Somme, Second Battle of Ypres, Paschendale. Also, In Flander's Fields, Remembrance Day, etc. At the same time we shouldn't discount WW2. The fact that they had clear objectives is no kind of detriment. It was the first war in which they actively commanded operations. See Operation Totalise. Dieppe Raid, Italian Campaign (World War II), Attacks on Canadian mainland - think this might have had something to do with the amount of volunteers? Juno Beach (should be mentioned, the Canadians made great gains on the "day of days"), along with Battle of the Scheldt... I like Image:Reconciliation-ottawa.jpg and Image:Peacekeeping monument.jpg but I also propose Image:Canadian landings at Juno Beach.jpg and Image:Acrossthescheldt.jpg. Battle of Kapyong was a notable battle in Korea in which Canadian units distinguished themselves and was one of the last large scale battles Canadian forces had a large commitment in. heqs 19:48, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
I think that this section is now more than a little crowded with images. Jkelly 17:36, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
It's definitely crowded for such a small section. I think the peacekeeping monument is the weakest of the three images, but leaving only two military images doesn't give a very full picture of Canadian Foreign Relations. -- TheMightyQuill 17:43, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Is there anyone other than Jeff that opposes including both Image:Canadian_tank_and_soldiers_Vimy_1917.jpg and Image:Canadian landings at Juno Beach.jpg in the history section like I did here? I do not think that this overburdens the article with images. Thanks, heqs 14:46, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
Just so you know: A the 0th is a sockpuppet of E Pluribus Anthony as established by CheckUser Both have been active on this talk page. Andeggs 11:23, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
There are three inline references left to be found. These are in topics that either I don't know of online resources, or I don't have the required books to find. Can someone look into it, especially the one about amalgating the French (a good history book should have it). -- Jeff3000 14:02, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
Doesn't "Canada is the world's second-largest country in total area, after Russia." need a citation? Same with "Toronto, Ontario is one of the world's most multicultural cities." Not sure, so I thought I'd ask rather than putting a citation needed tag. -- TheMightyQuill 18:07, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
I think this article is now ready to be a Feature Article Candidate. Before I go ahead and list it, does anyone have any more problems with the page? -- Jeff3000 02:16, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps I'm missing something, but it seems like the history section kind of finishes up around the end of WWII - except for some mention of Quebec's wranglings with independence. What about Expo '67, the adoption of the Maple Leaf flag, the '82 patriation of the Constitution, etc.? We don't need detailed explanation of these events, but they're kind of important moments in Canadian history, no? -- gbambino 15:58, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
How bout a mention of the 2010 olympics. heqs 16:06, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Oh, I see. Well, what can summarise the social changes in Canada after the end of the second World War? Commonly it seems to be:
This could, of course, be summed up in a paragraph or two, I think. -- gbambino 19:12, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
One possible edit is to shorten the list of things that helped increase support for Quebec independence (I think the list is too long and detailed for a summary article), and add one or two concise sentences on increased immigration, the growth of nationalism, and the shift of power (which is debatable, given the recent election results). -- Jeff3000 19:37, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Congratulations to all involved. Jkelly 23:16, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm not sure how important it is for achieving Featured Article status, but doesn't it seem as though the article is getting clogged with pictures? It seems especially bad in the Foreign relations and miltary, Language, and culture sections. -- gbambino 17:37, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm not sure what the problem with my edit was. How did it affect the following section? As far as I could see the Geography and climate section remained identical after my condensing of Provinces and territories. Frankly, its reverted form looks terrible. -- gbambino 18:44, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
What about getting rid of the table, it already exists in the Provinces and territories of Canada page. -- Jeff3000 19:12, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
There is a big problem with the new table, anyone with a resolution width of less that 1030 (I measured using Firefox) will get a horizontal scrollbar. This is not only bad Wikipedia practice, it's bad web design. We need to make the table fit in at least 800px. --
Jeff3000
22:43, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
The new, simplified table of provinces and territories looks good, but it is too wide. I don't think we can get it to fit properly simply by shrinking the text. Also, if possible, the geopolitical map should be returned to a larger size. -- thirty-seven 22:45, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
At the very least, this section should list and link all the provinces and territories, as the US and Australia articles do. If we are not also listing their geographical and political regions, perhaps they could be listed by official precedence. -- thirty-seven 00:07, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
From the Provinces and Territories section: The federal government can initiate national policies that the provinces opt out of, but this rarely happens in practice. I think this statement if ambiguous. What rarely happens in practice: that the federal government initiates such programs that the provinces can opt out of, or that provinces do opt out of such programs? -- thirty-seven 19:03, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
The economy boomed during the war, as Canada grew closer to the United States and even began subsidizing the British Treasury.
What the heck is the British Treasury? heqs 19:10, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
What about giving a quick rundown of the Category:terrestrial biomes in Canada? e.g. everything from tundra to Temperate rain forest. This seems to be missing from the daughter article, but it seems like the natural basic info to include. heqs 19:48, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
From the article: "Due to its colonial past, Canadian culture has historically been heavily influenced by English, French, Irish, Scottish, and First Nations cultures and traditions." Due to its colonial past, Canadian culture has historically been heavily influenced by... First Nations cultures? No. Clearly that doesn't make sense. So I've put a "better" revision in there, but I expect it to be "edited mercilessly". AshleyMorton 04:20, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
Please discuss changes before changing the format of the references. There has already been discussion, and the manual of style is a guideline, not a policy. -- Jeff3000 14:38, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
Given the discussion on the AFD page, it seems like the Canada/References page will be deleted, and so I'll stick with that and have the references on this page, but regarding the deletion of the locations of publication, why delete information that makes the reference more correct. The correct citation style is to include the location, when it is known. -- Jeff3000 22:56, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
There are too many and some can be put under others such as "provinces" under "geography", "foreign relations" under "government" and "holidays" can be put under "culture" if it even needs to have a place. Skinnyweed 20:04, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
In the featured article nomination page, Peta states that most recently featured countires don't have the holiday section, do people think this adds much to an article? If this is true, I think we should remove the Holiday section. I had thought that this section was a requirement imposed on the Canada article by some template/standard that needed to be met in order to achieve featured article status. Generally, Canadian holidays are not especially noteworthy or different compared to other Western, historically-Christian, nations. Canada Day/ Dominion Day is already mentioned in the article. Remembrance Day could be mentioned in the Military section, if contributors think that would be worthwhile. -- thirty-seven 03:22, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Since Canada is a completely separate kingdom from the United Kingdom is it correct to call Queen Elizabeth of Canada Elizabeth II as this article on Canada does? Because Canada never had a monarch called Elizabeth before her, so she is not really Elizabeth II in Canada. There have been similiar situations like this in personal unions, when two completely separate kingdoms share the same monarch. When King James VI of Scotland became King of England and King of Ireland in 1603 he was still called James VI in Scotland but he was just called James in England and in Ireland because those two kingdoms were still completely separate from Scotland and they had never had a king called James before. And when King Henry VIII of England became King of Ireland in 1541 he was still called Henry VIII in England but he was technically just Henry in Ireland because the two kingdoms were still technically completely separate from each other and Ireland had never had a king called Henry before. FDR 11:11 PM May 22 2006 (UTC)
Maybe she does call herself that, but if she does that is not correct. Because King James VI of Scotland when he became King of England and King of Ireland in 1603 called himself James in those two kingdoms instead of James VI and when King Henry VIII of England became King of Ireland in 1541 he called himself Henry in that kingdom instead of Henry VIII. FDR | Talk 12:19 AM, May 23 2006 (UTC)
And incidentally her title is not Queen of England, which came out of use in 1707 because of the Act of Union, but Queen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. And your mentioning Scotland was not relevant to what we are arguing about because that is part of the United Kingdom. FDR 12:22 AM, May 23 2006 (UTC)
Oh, so their monarchies are still British, huh? That would mean that they are still British colonies, which they obviously are not. Why can you not understand a personal union, its a simple concept. When two completely separately and independent kingdoms share the same monarch. Read Wikipedia's article about it. It is possible for two completely separate kingdoms to have the same monarch and still be separate. FDR 10:26 PM May 24 2006 (UTC)
The only examnple that can be cited for describing it as a kingdom is a 19th century document that was rejected. In what way is Canada a kingdom? After all, it has no independent monarchy of its own. TharkunColl 23:54, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
Presumably you mean couldn't care less - what you actually wrote makes no sense. Those books you cite are not legal or constitutional documents, and judging by the context are clearly using the term metaphorically (the British state has, I believe, been called "the best disguised republic in the world" - that doesn't mean it actually is a republic). As for the Brits feeling that the Americans would care what term was used in the 1860s - I find this difficult to believe and unless someone can provide historical sources for this assertion I shall remove the whole paragraph. The fact remains, that for whatever reason, the proposal to call Canada a kingdom was rejected. You may wish to argue that this was in deference to U.S. opinion - maybe it was, maybe it wasn't - but the proposal was still rejected, and Canada never received the title of "kingdom". Your argument, Gbambino, is that any country with a king or queen is a kingdom - I understand your argument, but it is simply not true. Ancient Sparta, Carthage, and Rome each continued to have kings even after they became republics. Conversely, both Spain and Greece in the 20th century spent periods when they were legally and constitutionally kingdoms, but had no monarch. Basically, the status of "kingdom" can only be determined by reference to statute - something that you are fond of quoting when it comes to the legal position of the crown in Canada - which means that a "kingdom" is a state which so descrbes itself constitutionally. Canada does not. Therefore, it isn't. TharkunColl 08:08, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
Definition of kingdom on dictionary.com "A political or territorial unit ruled by a sovereign." Definition of kingdom on Merriam-Webster.com "a politically organized community or major territorial unit having a monarchical form of government headed by a king or queen". Canada is a political unit. Canada is ruled by a sovereign. Canada has a monarchical form of government head by a king or queen. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it is a duck. -- Jeff3000 17:29, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
I would like to step up in 'opposition' to the use of "kingdom" as well. Here's how my thought process works: First, do a thought experiment - picture yourself asking 10 people on the street whether Canada is a "kingdom". I believe that most would say no, at least right off the bat. Now, that doesn't prove anything. However, what it does is establish on which side of this argument the burden of proof lies. The question "how is Canada not a kingdom?", used in the argument above, is therefore out the window. I do not need to prove to anyone that the moon 'does' orbit the earth - that's, currently, accepted knowledge. If there were honest debate on thtat topic, it would be the other side who had to prove their point.
...and the only tools we are allowed to use here are those of reference - a good logical flow based on definitions (such as "Realm = dominion = kingdom") is irrelevant - that's original research, at best. It might be able to establish that it "should" be called a kingdom, or even that whoever did not call it a kingdom in the first place was an idiot. What it cannot do is force Canada to be a kingdom.
In addition, to tag on another counterexample, even India, when under direct colonial rule, was not a kingdom. Victoria was the Queen of the United Kingdom, but the Empress of India - because India was part of the Empire, not the Kingdom. AshleyMorton 17:54, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
AshleyMorton 18:44, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
However, to be completely honest, I don't think this is really a necesary fight. Even those of us who oppose are not suggesting that the article say "Canada is not a kingdom." Edit history bears this out.
Beside, in an encyclopedic sense, is there any need to include this specific word? I'd like to propose "monarchy" or some other possibility to replace, because I think it's clear that that sentence is really about the country becoming sovereign, not about it becoming a kingdom. Can there be some sort of compromise that will fit within your beliefs? AshleyMorton 18:44, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
Another fallacy in your argument, AshleyMorton, is that you compared India under Victoria to the current Canadian monarchy. India was merely a British colonial possession. Canada is a completely independent country. It is not a valid comparison. FDR 2:14 PM May 25, 2006 (UTC)
Well, yes I can. The person who discharges all the powers and duties of head of state in Canada is an appointed politician. His office is neither for life, and nor is it hereditary. He is chosen by the elected government. That doesn't sound much like a monarchical form of government to me. Why on earth is anybody trying to squeeze Canada into medieval European models? Why can't it be something new and different? Neither a republic or a kingdom, but something else? TharkunColl 18:48, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
Canada has no links to the UK any longer, despite the fact that the two independent, sovereign kingdoms share the same monarch. Can you not appreciate that you have contradicted yourself in the same sentence? Is it pure coincidence that out of all the billions of people on earth, the Canadians should have picked for their titular head of state the one person who also just happens to be queen of the UK - Canada's historical colonial power? Of course not! Canada is not a kingdom because it has no monarch of its own, and is still totally dependent on the British to supply them (it could, of course, change this at any time). TharkunColl 20:37, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
There you go with that "they happen" thing again, as if it's little more than an accident that the Canadians have chosen the British monarch as their titular head of state. Let me ask you a question: what nationality is the queen? As for Pennsylvania not being called a state - you're wrong. It's called a state by the U.S. government, which is the sovereign entity in this particular case. Canada is a sovereign entity, and does not call itself a kingdom. For Wikipedia to describe it thus is therefore incorrect. TharkunColl 20:50, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
Are we talking about "thereby making it a sovereign kingdom..."? This is plainly just misleading - as though it MADE it into a kingdom. Using the term here, even if it were technically correct, serves no good purpose for readers & is just confusing -- JimWae 21:03, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
While I have to admit that I don't immediately grasp many of the arguments that User:TharkunColl is making above, I nevertheless suggest that we may be giving a kind of "undue emphasis" when we use the word "kingdom" in the article. I'm not really interested in researching the "truth of the matter"; it is just that the word is used relatively infrequently in summaries of Canada that it can read as if we're making some sort of point by including it. Jkelly 21:22, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
Oman, Japan, and Kuwait have monarchs that are called sultans, emperors (at least in English), and emirs respectively. I'm not sure of your point here - are you trying to suggest that all these titles from non-Western cultures should actually be translated as "king"? Not all monarches are kings, even in Europe. Monaco has princes, and Lichtenstein has grand dukes. In the past there have also been emperors. But your assertions about the monarchy are just wrong, anyway. Does the British monarch have no influence outside the UK? You are constantly reminding us that she also has a constitutional role in Canada. You appear to be treating her as if she were two different people, whereas in fact she is one person with many different titles. I hesitate to even call them jobs, because she only has one full time job - being quuen of the UK. You have asserted that I have not proved my case, but the fact is that I have. It is you who haven't, and the burden of proof must be on you who wants to include such a contentious word. Please provide an official government source that describes Canada as a kingdom. That is all we need to keep the word in. TharkunColl 22:04, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
That's just a quotation from somebody's book. I have no issues with anyone calling Canada, or indeed anywhere else, a kingdom metaphorically. What I'm objecting to is the use of the word in what is supposed to be a factual encyclopedia. And, if the "Queen of Canada" is a completely separate position from that of the Queen of the UK, then why do they always have to be the same person? If you think that two positions that must always be held by the same individual are "completely separate", then you have a pretty weird definition of the word "separate". As I have pointed out already, for all practical purposes Canada does not have a monarchical form of government, because it does not have its own resident monarch. TharkunColl 22:32, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
First of all, even though it apparently supports my case, the issue of whether the monarch is female is a red herring. There is no such word as "queendom" in English and - sexist though it undoubtedly is - the word kingdom is always used instead.
Canada is undoubtedly a constitutional monarchy - its constitution specifies that its head of state is a monarch. It is also a dominion, because that was the term chosen in the 1860s to describe it when it became an independent state. Yes, there was a proposal to call it a kingdom, and this proposal was made in good faith by serious politicians and constitutional thinkers. For whatever reason (and the reason doesn't matter), this proposal was rejected. The terms "dominion" and "kingdom" are not synonymous in English, because even a moment's thought will show that "dominion" has a far wider and consequently less specific application than "kingdom". One could say "Victoria's kingdom included Great Britain and Ireland" or "Victoria's dominion included a quarter of the world". Or, in a slightly different way, "Henry VIII's kingdom was called England" or "Hitler's dominion was called the Third Reich". In both of these double examples, one could substitute dominion for kingdom and still retain accuracy, but not the other way round.
The people who organised the constitutional arrangements for Canada in the 1860s were legislative pioneers. Never before had a British colony, or in this case a federation of a group of British colonies, been granted such a measure of self rule as to constitute effective independence (the case of the USA obviously doesn't count because that was contested). They could, very easily, have gone down the route of calling Canada a kingdom, in which case we wouldn't be having this debate. But they didn't. They chose instead to use a far less specific word, namely, dominion. This was the first time that the term "dominion" had ever been used as part of the name of a country, but it set a precedent. No former British colony, or federation of former British colonies, has ever been called a kingdom - those that retain the king/queen as head of state have always, instead, been called dominions. (NB - I am, of course, aware that a few former British colonies, such as Tahiti, are indeed called kingdoms. But these are the ones with their own native monarchs. These exceptions prove the rule.)
I am also fully aware that under law, the Crown of Canada is separate from the Crown of the UK, etc. But despite this legal separation, the fact remains that the Canadians have chosen the same person as the British monarch to be their own monarch. Notice that the previous sentence was rather convoluted, and it would have been far better English to simply say "the Canadians have chosen the British monarch to be their own monarch" - were it not for the fact that certain pedants might point out that the this was somehow wrong. What such pedants seem to be overlooking, is that whereas the crowns and offices might indeed be legally separate, the person isn't. There are not two (or more) different queens, but one single person who holds a number of different titles and offices. And furthermore, the only office that she actually exercises in her own person is that of Queen of the UK, where she lives and where she receives her income from. Her legal functions in Canada are exercised by somebody else, who is chosen by the Canadians themselves. And furthermore, at no time could the queen ever take these powers back and exercise them herself - the Canadian constitution would simply not allow it.
In short, to some up:
Canada is not a kingdom. Kingdoms are something different. Canada has no need to follow medieval European naming conventions. It is new and unique. TharkunColl 09:21, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
Jumping back into the debate...
How about "constitutional monarchy"? TharkunColl 11:30, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
As the subject says, let's settle this on the talk page. Putting it back into the article when no consensus has emerged is probably against policy (I don't really know - I haven't been around Wikipedia this long), but I know for certain that it's not acting in good faith. Gbambino added it again, I have removed it again, and I have no interest in wasting time doing so again. AshleyMorton 16:03, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
Canada has never had its own monarchy, it never was a kingdom. It's head of state is that of the United Kingdom. BlueKangaroo 20:08, 26 May 2006 (UTC).
gbambino seems intent on a revert war to refer to Canada as a kingdom - that was never the official title of Canada, was actually rejected by the crown, has never been used by the gov't, and sounds strange to the vast majority of Canadians. He keeps inserting the term as flat-out description of Canada. Even were the titles synonymous, that is NOT the title of Canada. The correct title is dominion. This seems to be approaching WP:Point -- JimWae 16:15, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
Having a source is essential, but sources can be found for nearly anything. It is still a POV and cannot be presented as fact. There are significant differences between the monarchy's relationship with the country that does call itself a kingdom (UK) and the one she has with any of the dominions. Calling it a kingdom is an attempt to make a polemic point, not part of what belongs in an encyclopedia - except perhaps as a separate article outlining the arguments on both sides. -- JimWae 16:24, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
"I would consider that a completely valid formulation" - *sigh*, 'I agree' would have done. BlueKangaroo 20:13, 26 May 2006 (UTC).
Did Macdonald call it a kingdom after the BNA Act, or before, or both? Another formulation would be something like "Macdonald and other Canadians requested the new act refer to Canada as a kingdom, but this was rejected by the crown and instead the term dominion was used." -- JimWae 17:03, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
I think the discussion is relevant here as well, because Canada was the very first "commonwealth realm" to gain independence from the UK, and its constitutional arrangements set a precedent for all the others. Sir John Macdonald may well have wanted Canada to be a kingdom, but after his proposal was rejected such a term became unthinkable for his later counterparts in Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, Newfoundland, etc. TharkunColl 17:58, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
This country is a Kingdom as by definition. Dominion is used in name and is what Canada is and a Dominion is just another word for Kingdom. I have always called this country a Dominion maybe because I'm older and was a common thing to call our country and also it is the official name the Dominion of Canada. Whether people believe it is or not I think people just don't want it to be. You can cite up as many documents and books as you want or the constitutional act of 1982. It does not state we are a dominion or kingdom therefore we are some how not. These are all tricks by the liberals to try and take away one more element of Canada's past. I know Wikipedia is not supposed to be biased but it has to be you either support our Queen and our ties with the United Kingdom and its people or you wish to become completely separate and forget about our Queen and our motherland. The United Kingdom is Canada and Canada is the United Kingdom we are one in the same maybe one day some of you will realise this and can be proud again of our British ties.
It is quite clear our forefathers wished us to be loyal British subjects unless you are stupid and blind you may not understand this. I don't think it was anyone's intention to cut off our ties to the land which they came from or the land their parents came from and the people which built the new land they were in. There are two ways to look at this country either its history began in 1867 or it has continued from a few thousand years ago in Britannia, the choice is yours. Also Yes the monarch has referred to its kingdom. King George VI even called Canada his kingdom and that he was the King of Canada that is where we got the Queen of Canada title from. Matthew Samuel Spurrell 26 May 2006 11:51 {UTC}
Again, I'm perfectly willing to accept that Canada is a kingdom, and it's indisputable that MacDonald wanted it to be called a Kindom, but I'm not sure that's so important to go on the main page. It's already there under Canada's name. Why does it matter what MacDonald wanted but didn't get? It's interesting trivia, but not really important.
People on the street might not regularly refer to canada as a constitutional monarchy, but if you have them a choice between, kingdom and constitutional monarchy, they would undoubtedly choose the latter.
Were not talking about a close race here. -- TheMightyQuill 19:16, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
Calling Canada a kingdom is contested - with some support. It has not been established as "a fact", which in this case would require agreement by scholars with hardly any exception. It is also much more "abnormal" than calling it a constitutional monarchy - which most Canadians would at least recognize as correct. It is of little relevance what Macdonald wanted to call it, or even what a king or two might have said in passing - official documents do NOT call Canada a kingdom. Calling Canada a kingdom (even if technically correct, which has not been agreed upon), would require explanation & support within the article - in which case both sides would need to be represented. It is sufficient to describe Canada to call it a constitutional monarchy, & to point out the title "dominion" applies. Dealing with "kingdom" is really more appropriate material for the several subarticles that deal with the monarchy in Canada & Canada's name -- JimWae 19:27, 26 May 2006 (UTC) It could be relevant to state that Macdonald wanted it to be called a kingdom, but then it would be relevant to point out that the term was rejected -- JimWae 19:31, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
I think that this discussion should be moved to the talk page on the Commonwealth Realms article Talk:Commonwealth Realm. Because this argument applies not only to Canada but to all of the Commonwealth realms. Since if Canada is a kingdom, so are all the other realms, but if it is not a kingdom, then they are not either. My view is that Canada is a kingdom. FDR 15:45, May 26, 2006 (UTC)
I can't believe we are having this argument again. It is perfectly correct to say "Canada is a constitutional monarchy" and "Canada is a kingdom" (though the letter reads a bit strange when it has a queen, and is less accurate than the former). But "Kingdom of Canada" is not the official title of the country; nor is "Dominion of Canada". DJ Clayworth 19:47, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
Once again, I do not think that this is the correct place to have this discussion. Because this issue applies to all of the Commonwealth Realms, not just Canada, and the users on this page are getting arguments about things that have nothing to do with Canada. We should come to a mutual agreement to delete this segment of this talk page and then repost it on the Commonwealth Realms article's talk page. FDR FDR:MyTalk 15:50, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
That would be fine, to. But I think that we need in the future to discuss this issue on that talk page, rather than this one. FDR MyTalk 16:05 May 26 2006
This is a very stupid discussion to be having. Canada is a sovereign state with a queen. Any nation like that is by definition a kingdom. That official Canadian documents do not call it that does not matter. They do not call it a dominion, a term which has not been used in Canada for decades, or a constitutional monarchy either. That is really the end of the argument. And you cannot say that Canada is not its own kingdom because of it sharing the same monarch as the United Kingdom because even when Scotland and Ireland shared the same monarch as England they were still considered their own kingdoms. This discussion needs to end. The article needs to state that Canada is a kingdom. End of discussion. FDR | MyTalk 19:57 May 26, 2006 (UTC)
uh.. the official documents most certainly have called Canada a dominion -- JimWae 01:47, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
I have no source for King George VI remarks but I am certain he said it on his Royal tour here in 1939. It wasn't just a passing remark either I think he really meant it. That he just didn't want to be seen as some foreign power but a leader of Canada and all other subjects abroad. The "Kingdom of Canada" I don't think is our official name but saying Canada is a Kingdom is quite correct. That should be obvious look it up in a dictionary and that is what we are. A constitutional monarchy is still a Kingdom it just applies to the powers of the King itself but doesn't mean the Kingdom is gone. I still say Dominion of Canada is our name I'm not going to change it on here but I believe that is what the people wanted to call themselves and that was chosen. That is what I was taught anyway Canada was just a shortened version but we all knew we were the Dominion of Canada but I guess now people have forgot our title.
Yes this does have to do with "Britishness" if people were not so fussy about being British subjects why do we have these problems on here and in this country? Surely those who are loyalists don't mind being a Kingdom or using the word Dominion. Why did this country have to change its flag and anthem if people didn't mind being British subjects? I think that is what it comes down too because there is no evidence to say we are not a kingdom or that the Dominion of Canada is not our proper name. Does Canada just define itself now against what the United States is or our sense of nationalism is beer advertisements? How times have changed. Matthew Samuel Spurrell 26 May 2006 18:51 {UTC}
AshleyMorton, you said that Canada is not a kingdom and then cited the comparison of India when it was a British colony having Victoria as its Empress to prove your point. Earlier in this discussion I replied that since India was a mere colony whereas Canada is an independent country it was not a valid comparison. What is your response to my point? FDR | FDR:MyTalk 26 May 2006 15:48
Okay, so I have a document produced by the government of Canada that states Canada became "a kingdom in her own right from Confederation onward." [12] This confirms that not only was Canada a kingdom at Confederation, but the use of the word "onward" means that it continued to be a kingdom after Confederation. Can this therefore be introduced into the history section: "The British North America Act created Canada as "a kingdom in her own right," referred to as "one dominion under the name of Canada", with four provinces..."
I should have remembered this material; it was distributed to schools across the country for the Queen's 2002 Golden Jubilee visit, and I have printed versions of it (in French and English) at home. -- gbambino 21:37, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
Once again, I can totally accept that Canada is a kingdom. What I don't accept is that the term needs to be used here.
My reasons:
1. It is confusing. The very fact that this discussion continues is evidence enough of that. Usage of the term does need explanation (moreso than constitutional monarchy, which is a much more widespread term).
2. No one has yet stated any reason why the more abnormal term needs to be used here.
Proposed Solutions:
1. The term should definitely be used (and explained) on
History of Canada and on
Monarchy in Canada but on this page it is confusing and unecessary.
3. Discussion over whether or not Canada is currently a kingdom (Personally, I think gbambino's evidence is pretty indisputable here) should be moved to
Talk:Monarchy in Canada. If anyone denies that Canada is a constitutional monarchy, we have a real problem.
--
TheMightyQuill
10:30, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
What? Why should we avoid stating something that is true because some people don't get it? The purpose of an encycopedia is to explain confusing things, not to avoid talking about them. Myself I don't see what is so confusing. Canada has a Queen, and (in the absence of the word queendom) is therefore a kingdom. Now is has to be said that constitutional monarchy is a much better term, since it distinguishes Canada from absolute monarchies. DJ Clayworth 20:52, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
Why should we avoid stating something that is true because some people don't get it? I'm not suggesting leaving it out of the encyclopedia. If someone is really interested if Canada can be considered a kingdom or not, whether MacDonald intended it to be called a kingdom, and many other related questions, they are quite able to look up Canadian Confederation, History of Canada, Monarchy in Canada and many other things. My point is that it isn't necessary to use the word kingdom on the main Canada page. Yes it's confusing, yes it should be explained (that's what encyclopedias are for) but I don't see why it needs to be explained here, and if a full explanation doesn't belong on this page, why mention it at all? The fact that Canada is a constitutional monarchy, and was officially called a Dominion is important for this page. Whether "kingdom" is a suitable synonym for "constitutional monarchy" and whether MacDonald prefered the term "kingdom" (even though both, imho, are true) is not important for this page. -- TheMightyQuill 10:07, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
We seem to be moving towards a consensus, that constitutional monarchy is a better description than kingdom, and we should prefer to use it, but that we can use kingdom if there is a reason. DJ Clayworth 14:38, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm all for further explanation in other articles, but the reasoning behind this point still eludes me: Yes it's confusing, yes it should be explained... What, exactly, is confusing about the word "kingdom"? What, exactly, is confusing about the point that Canada became a kingdom in its own right after the passing of the BNA act? If its understandable enough to be used in a government-produced education pamphlet sent to school kids, why is it suddenly akin to quantum physics here? -- gbambino 19:53, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
Gbambino, how can you suggest it's not confusing? There are a number of users on this page that know a fair amount about Canada who are confused by the term, whereas everyone here would be happy with "constitutional monarchy." Don't you think that indicates some element of confusion? The term is not regularly used to describe Canada. I don't care if you can cite 10 or 20 examples of it being used it books, that doesn't change the fact that it's not commonly used to describe Canada' even though it could be legitimately. So give it a rest okay? You still haven't given any reason why it's important to use the term kingdom. -- TheMightyQuill 07:26, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm just going to preview the next 4-6 posts, hopefully to save time, because this series has happened at least three times before:
SO I would like to actually propose a Support/Oppose vote for "kingdom" - to be replaced with the words "constitutional monarchy" wherever it's reasonable, and some other construction as we supposedly-intelligent people can produce for anywhere that the language makes CM an awkward term. I would exempt from this exclusion direct quotations, such as the Sir John A one.
I'm not going to start the voting, because I don't know if there's a process that I should be following for this, or even if my proposal to have a vote is a good idea. What do you folks think? AshleyMorton 11:56, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
This strikes as phenominally silly. Canada is, of course, a kingdom, the same way that a monarchy with an emperor is an empire, a monarchy with a prince is a principality, etc. Canada has been a kingdom since 1931 (not 1867). It is not, however, commonly called the Kingdom of Canada either officially or traditionally. I hate to use a comparison with the US, but compare the sound of the United States of America is a federation versus Federation of the United States of America. Peter Grey 23:15, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
Is the queen head of state of each of the provinces as well, in a role unconnected with her role as queen of Canada? Surely this must be the case, as the provinces have a legal, sovereign existence in their own right, which cannot be altered by the federal government. In which case, if she can be rightly called Queen of Newfoundland (etc.), then why is not Newfoundland a kingdom? TharkunColl 15:21, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
Not that this is necessarily part of the discussion above, but I'd like to start a list of sources here which point to Canada being a kingdom. This information may prove useful here, or on other Canada related pages.
Hey guys - congrats on passing FAC! I have a question about one of the references that's listed, for "National Holidays." I see that the section on Holidays has been removed; does this reference still apply to anything, or can it be removed? Thanks! User: The Disco King (not signed in) 204.40.1.129 15:45, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
Well, you got it through the FAC process, but the first sentence I looked at is:
"Non-official languages are important in Canada, with 5,202,245 people listing a non-official language as a first language. Among the most important non-official first language ..."
"Non-official" occurs three times; "language(s) occurs four times. Would someone like to make it "compelling, even brilliant"? Sorry to gripe, but I thought it had been thoroughly fixed up.
heqs keeps putting up the military. There are far too many military pictures in this article (four of them), and too many images in the first place. I really don't think it needs to be there. If we are going to add extra pictures, they should be of something else that represents Canada since the military is already well represented. And unless someone else comments here in the next day or so, I will be removing the extra military picture once again. -- Jeff3000 14:03, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
This is just a very minor point, and I'm not seriously advocating changing the date, but I couldn't help noticing that her accession as Queen of Canada is given as 6 Feb 1952. The exact time of death of George VI is unknown, as he died during the night, but it would almost certainly have been before 5 a.m., and probably quite a long time before. In other words, while it was 6 Feb in the UK, it was - almost beyond question - still 5 Feb in Canada. TharkunColl 10:16, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Okay, 70.81.117.175 made two adjustments to "Demographics", both of which I've removed. The first was to lump together "Norwegian", "Swedish" and "Danish" (I think) to create a listing of "Scandinavian" on the list of Canada's common ancestries. There could, theoretically be support for this, but the fact that we don't lump any other categories together other than ones that the reference has already done. The reference is appropriately cited, and should be adhered to, because without sticking to it (or some better one, I suppose), we will get into a ridiculous discussion. HOWEVER, my greater concern was that the same IP user added a list called "Racial Makeup of Canada" to the end of the section. In it, he/she boiled down what is a very complex table (the one he/she cited: [13] to eight "Racial" categories (even though the reference refers to the statistics as concerning "ethnic origin"), and then listed them. This smells of an attempt to prove something, although I will reserve judgement because I have no interest in accusing someone of something. Still, if it seems POV then it should, at best, be modified, I believe. AshleyMorton 17:56, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Canada's GDP per capita(according to the GDP per capita list of each provinces) is C$42,000 meaning US$38,000. Is this the result of someone not changing the value due to the higher dollar value, or is Canada's GDP per capita currently $38,000. If so, should it be changed, and does this mean Canada's GDP is actually around 1.2 trillion US User:Sic_one
There are couple users who keep adding the "by area" qualifier to the second largest statement. It is unnecessary for that to be there. Given the definition of larger, that relates to size, what other thing can it be than area. Can it be volume? countries don't have volume. If someone was referring to population, then they would write Canada is the second-most populous country and not Canada is the second-largest country by population. I will be removing the statement again. -- Jeff3000 21:06, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
I cut the following new addition as being uncited, somewhat informal, and overly-detailed for the summary.
Perhaps it needs trimming, or placement into another article? Jkelly 23:11, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
I think it is fine as-is. Len W 07:12, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
24.42.193.126 has changed the unemployment stats. I asked him on his talk page to provide a verifiable source for the stats (which are probably right), but the given reference does not show that. I can't revert since I've reverted other vandalism three times today, but unless a verifiable source comes up, I will revert the value tomorrow. -- Jeff3000 22:03, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
Canada will appear on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on June 23, 2006 and Americans will respond with a resounding "Blame Canada" reference as their only knowledge of the country. This hour has 22 minutes and this dollar is 91 cents and rising. amen- Rainman71 05:15, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
An anon IP has just changed the sentence in Demographics regarding non-Christian religions from "The largest protestant denomination is the United Church of Canada; about 17% of Canadians declared no religious affiliation, and the remaining 6.3% were affiliated with religions other than Christianity, of which the largest is Islam (1.9%)." to add "... followed by Judaism (1.1%)." I am concerned about this, but I'm definitely willing to be outvoted (or at least outvoiced), so I thought I'd discuss it here first. First, here are the actual numbers from the 2001 Census (the anon's numbers are not wrong, but that's not the issue):
All others put together do not equal 100,000. As you can see, there is a massive drop from Christianity to the others. However, there is also a significant (almost half) from Islam to the "next tier". Then, we have Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism and Sikhism all very close by numbers - 300,000 +/- 30,000. I believe that including *only* Islam and Judaism is not appropriate, as it sets the cut-off at a very difficult-to-defend level. Thus, I see three options.
a) Nothing other than Christianity and some sort of "all others accound for 6.3%" statement. b) Mention Islam, but no others (basically a revert of the edit I'm discussing). c) Mention all of these ones above, perhaps with a table.
I personally support b), because I think it gives valuable information without clutter, and I think that a population larger than the population of my own home province (NL) deserves mention, yet it leaves details to other sub-articles. However, I would be also be satisfied with c). Anyone else? AshleyMorton 15:14, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
Jeff's already done it. Guess this is a) useless now and b) proof that I'm too wordy. AshleyMorton 15:21, 15 June 2006 (UTC)