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Discussion of Canada's official name Future TFA paragraph |
The Statute of Westminster is a pretty obscure piece of British legislation. Though it is taught for all of five seconds in Canadain high schools, nobody really pays it any notice and it is not commemerated by anybody except maybe wistfully by the Monarchist Club. The British North America Act(1867) is usually the date given for the founding of Canada as an independant country. And an arguement could be made for the Constitution Act(1982)which finally removed the right for appeal to the British Privy Council for criminal cases. Even now the Head of State appointed by the Queen of England can disolve Parliament and force an election. The First Nations still have treaties with the British Crown because of treaties entered into before July 1st 1867. When the Canadain government fails in its treaty responsibilities Natives still press their case in Westminster. I don't think that it has a stronger claim than 1867.
First of all, it's the Monarchist LEAGUE, not the "Monarchist Club". Also, there is no Queen of England, as England is not its own kingdom, it is a constituent country of the UNITED KINGDOM. You should really say "The Queen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland". Canada does not have any sort of head of state APPOINTED by our Queen. That is entirely impossible, as the Queen herself is our head of state (You don't believe me? British North America Act, Section IV. Executive power, paragraph one, sentence one -- I think). If you believe Her Excellency the Govenor General is our head of state, you are wrong, as she is simply a Representative of our head of state (the Queen).
Two16 06:47 Jan 10, 2003 (UTC)
About the name of the country, s3. of Constitution Act of 1867: "one dominion under the name of Canada". -- Vasile 12:38, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Yes, "under the name of Canada" not "under the name of the Dominion of Canada", a phrase which appears no where in the BNA Act 1867. AndyL 01:12, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Do many other country sites have sections devoted to the origin of the name? Since the name of Canada is so contentious (Canada vs Dominion of Canada) and there is already an article Canada's Name, why is the Naming section still there? Is there a REDIRECT from Dominion of Canada? The article is getting quite long and we are getting warning messages about its length.-- BrentS 17:29, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Canadians may know the names of the provinces, but nowhere are they listed in the article - even the section on Provinces and Territories barely MENTIONS in passing Quebec and Yukon. This is not how a main article should be constructed. I suggest that the details about geography means little to non-Canadians if they do not already know which place names refer to the provinces. The provinces are a basic political unit & essential to understanding Canada. If there is concern about article length, I suggest that the extensive details in the sections on Geography, Provinces & Territories, and Politics be moved to their respective sub-articles. I have reinserted the listing of the names of the provinces & territories into the article. -- JimWae 17:38, 2005 Apr 9 (UTC)
The chart that lists the provinces/territories, their capitals, and the regions in whcih they are located concerns me. There is a thousand ways to carve Canada up into regions, and there will never be any agreement on the correct way to do it. I suggest deleting the regions from this chart as it is inherently POV and subject to debate. That debate can be caried on in the article about the regiosn of Canada, instead on the main page for the country. Comments? Ground Zero 19:02, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Please somebody else please go to Template:Canada_infobox & revert vandalism -I've already done my limit -- JimWae 03:32, 2005 Apr 20 (UTC)
Why is the Red Ensign in there? I'm pretty sure that flag is obsolete, and even if it's still used somewhere for something, it's 40 years out of date as a national flag. Other country pages don't seem to have old flags on display.
I put the flag there because I feel it belongs there. This flag is part of our country and part of our history a lot of people feel that it should be next to the offical flag as it is called. When the Maple Leaf flag was proclaimed our flag in no way did anyone say the former one was obsolete rather that it may be used still with equal stature to the new flag. This is our flag too and I think it belongs next to the other one. my father fought under the Red Ensign for Canada and his father did before him and his father before him. A lot of people consider this the true Canadian flag and im only trying to put the flag in it's rightful place. Call it the royal flag or the former flag underneath then but I feel it needs to be there. For the culture bit was a work in progress I don't understand why this is called an open webserver when people won't let you post anything? I am in no way vandalising as you put it im just adding information that I think should be there and it is not offensive in anyway. (posted by User:Vanman2010)
Okay I apologise I was just trying to give some information about Canada. But still can't the Canadian Red Ensign be on any part of the Canada page? What exactly can I even add to the page? Also about beliefs the whole page is someones belief and I think there is more to Canadian culture than some gay people getting married and some marijuana users don't you? But if im not allowed to add things to the page I won't then. (Unsigned post by Vanman2010)
Well I thought it was a nice looking one and got if off a Canadian government website. Well I was going to add more for culture including american influences and other cultures for that matter but was researching more information didn't think people would jump on it so quickly. Anyway im not going to add anything to Canada seems like as soon as you do anything or update something it gets changed back lol some people must be really protective of their work. I just wish the page truly reflected the country.
Sincerly,
Vanman2010
== Culture == - In this article Canadian culture was described beyond our traditions and customs to supposedly include liberal social policies and conservative fiscal policies supposedly supported by most Canadians and Canadian governments. I won't bother rewording the paragraph myself, but I would suggest a change as those statements are innacurate. First of all every Canadian government from 1867 to 1984 opposed the idea of free trade and in the free trade election of 1988, despite the Tory majority, 57% of Canadians voted against the deal and many still oppose it today or at least want it reformed.
Also in respect to same sex marriage current polls done this year (2005) by a variety of sources (the CBC, EKOS, the National Post, Environics, etc.) show a good majority of Canadians opposed to changing the traditional definition, so I think that it is misleading to define Canadian culture as including controversial and not popularly accepted political policies like free trade and same sex marriage. On health care and balanced budgets however the author was very correct those are two strongly suppoted political practices in this country, most Canadians are dissatisfied with some aspects of health care service, but support for universal health care is almost uninanamous in this country. The same can be said, since 1993 anyway for support for balanced fiscal budgets as well.
Well in light of what recently happened, I would like to see some overhauling of the Culture section myself. I have made a few feeble attempts at this with the 'early europeans' paragraph. (posted as an unown prior to me joining). -- Diskadia
According to polls that I have seen over the past year a majority of Canadians either support same-sex marriage, or they are almost evenly devided on the issue (with big regional differences). For the most part, I think the reference to same-sex marriage in the article is fine, but I have a problem with the constant references to the US in this section. There is am implication there that we have same-sex marriage, free trade, etc. just to distinguish ourselves from the US. That's absurd. It makes no sense to suggest that everything that has evolved in Canada has done so as a reaction to American culture.
Also, I agree with Montrealais. The fact that there is no mention of francophone culture in the culture section of an article about Canada is a big oversight. -Andrew
An anonymous editor inserted a note that Canada is "more formally known as the Confederation of Canada without any explanation. Let's be clear: the Government of Canada is the organization in charge of these things. It calls the country "Canada", and not anything else. How can it be "formally known as" something that the Government of Canada or its constitution does not call it?
Wikipedia is not the place to promote your pet project of changing Canada's name and/or description. Rant completed. Thank you for your time. Ground Zero 18:12, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
There has been some back-and-forth in edits about where French is commonly spoken in Ontario: eastern and southern Ontario, or eastern and northern Ontario. While there are many francophones in southern Ontario, they form only a small percentage of the population; it is northern Ontario that (together with eastern Ontario) contains most communities with a large percentage of francophones, such as North Bay, Timmins, Kapuskasing, and Hearst. David 18:10, 2005 Apr 30 (UTC)
User:Cause of death - a one day user did a massive revert today w/o comment - I am restoring
A recent edit changed introductory paragraph from saying that Canada was a 'soverign state' to a 'soverign country'. I don't think that new choice in terminology is appropriate in this case. If you look at the linked article for 'country' you see a distinction that 'country' refers specifically to a geographic region, while 'state' refers to an independent political unit. I don't much care if we choose to use the word 'country' instead of 'state'. But, to call it a 'soverign country' seems to be a misnomer; you're mixing the geographic and the political. So, is this article talking about a political unit that happens to exist on one contiguous piece of land, or are we talking about a piece of land that happens to be occupied by have an independent state? 24.222.2.222Luke
I keep trying to move the all-caps page starting with something like CANADA IS THE BEST back here and it doesn't appear to work! Somebody please explain. Georgia guy 02:03, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
I tried to move a completely unrelated article and got a "Stop trying to move Canada message" - wierd. Where did Canada go to, anyway? NoAccount
Part of the problem was that too many people were trying to move it back. It's now back where it belongs, and protected against moves. Nobody should need to move the article on a whim, so it's no big loss. -- Cyrius| ✎ 02:34, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
The first sentence says Canada is the northern-most country in the world. Looking at a map, it appears part of Greenland is farther north. Which is correct? NoAccount 02:41, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
The territory of Canada include the north pole...can't be more north than that...
The north pole forms part of Canada's maritime border. This point also forms the borders of at least Greenland, Russia, and the United States (Alaska). If the "north pole is part of Canada" logic is used, then technically all four countries are "the northern-most country in the world"
Why are the links to this article on the front page showing in red? -- Jfruh 03:07, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
I would agree.-- CanadianPride 00:09, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
--Instead of having all of these skyline photos sprinkled randomly throughout the article, shouldn't there be a section called "Important Cities" like the one under the United States? There's currently nothing in this article that lists the top 10 (or 20) Canadian cities/metropolitan areas. -- Jleon 15:46, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
But Canada is never refered to as such in common dialog, I have never heard Canada called a state in my 20 years of living here. It is always called a country. However, according to the strict defintion found at country, state is the proper word to be used. The dictionary defintion is not as strict though, and therefore country could be used. Going with the strict defintion is fine, but, and here is the big but, all the articles on the states of the USA must explicitly state that they are not actually states. But are just called states. Fair is only fair. -- metta, The Sunborn 19:45, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
I'm surprised that no attention was paid to the govt. of Canada reference I provided in my edit summary. If I'm incorrect, I would like to learn why, but please do me the courtesy of revewing and adressing the source I provided beforehand. El_C 08:17, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
Sorry, El C, I couldn't find reference at reference to "Canadian Federation" being the official name of the country. There is a lot of information there. Perhaps you could point to exactly where to find it. In fact, the one reference I did find (in the section on 2003) was to the "Canadian federation", i.e., 'federation' was not capitalized, which indicates that it is not being used as a title.
I have trouble agreeing with your conclusion in any event: it seems that the Government of Canada, the Supreme Court of Canada and the Parliament of Canada are unlikely to be using the incorrect or informal name. At the United Nations and other international bodies, the name is only "Canada", even though many other countries use their full names. As far as I can tell, the only name for this country now is "Canada", not dominion, federation or confederation.
See the discussion above on "Canada" vs. "Dominion of Canada". Alex756 points out that:
This is equally true for "Canadian Federation". The term just isn't used.
And SunirShah (64.229.25.227 ) provides the following from the BNA Act:
It does not say "Canadian Federation". Hmmm... while normally I would wait for a response, in this case, I think there is convincing evidence that the name is just "Canada", and not anything else, so I am going to make that change. El C, I encourage you to review this full talk page.
I have removed the "later" from the sentence about being granted dominion status. It is clear from historical documents, not just the constitution, that the term "dominion" was being used right from the beginning. See:
I have made another change: Canada is not a federation of 10 provs + 3 territories. The territories are federal lands that are organized as territories for administration. The territories do not have any constitutional status as do the provinces. Ground Zero Ground Zero 13:46, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
I would suggest that we try to work out a compromise that reflects User:JimWae's valid point the "divided into" isn't correct, and User:E Pluribus Anthony's that we shouldn't get into the constitutional status of the territories in the overview section. I'm am sure that if we work together we can figure something out. Ground Zero 21:00, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
---
Thanks for the feedback; it seems that we're picking too many nits out of this. It also seems JimWae was not privy to our agreement, GroundZero, to edit the statement "e.g., divided into..." My contention is that just because Canada's territories are federally administered does not mean they are not federated (as the territories are federal creations and this is implicit in a Canadian context) nor does it mean they do not comprise the federal state; after all, that is what a federation is (with the political subdivisions and tiered divisions of powers and responsibilities that entails, etc.). The goal in the overview is just that, to be summative, and be clear all the same: explanations regarding the administration of the territories should be reserved for those sections and related articles: consult the 'Provinces and territories' section and articles (where this statement also appears!)
If this remains an issue, I suggest completely reworking the overview to cleave mentions of Canada being a federation and what it is divided into, i.e., put each in different sentences.
I would also suggest de-emphasising what the official name is (keep the styled note, get rid of the rest); there's a section for that too. (I merely made the editions to make that sentence flow better.)
Thoughts and thanks.
User:E_Pluribus_Anthony 07:27, 28 May 2005 (UTC)
The history of Canada section states that "...Canada included all of its present area except for Alberta and Saskatchewan (...) and Newfoundland..." by 1880. That doesn't seem accurate to me. The fact is, Canada claimed jurisdiction over all of its present lands (except for Newfoundland and Labrador) starting from the date that it purchased the Northwest Territories and Rupert's Land. The Government of Canada Atlas ( http://atlas.gc.ca/site/english/maps/historical/territorialevolution) depicts this process as having been completed by 1881. In 1905, Alberta and Saskatchewan were annexed from the NWT to exist as provinces, to improve the ability to govern the West in the wake of the gold rush. 24.222.2.222Luke
(Moved from Canada.
Reply: The official name of Canada is the Dominion of Canada whether people use it or not we are still a Consitutional Monarchy and a Dominion of equal status in the Commonwealth. For example the United States of America is sometimes just called "America" that doesn't mean that is now their official name. Canada is still a Domonion in the Commonwealth and until we become a republic which will probebly never happen we are still the Dominion of Canada. There is no where that states we are not the Dominion of Canada but there is evidence that says we are so im going to change it to the longform name Dominion of Canada because I believe it is correct techinically but leave the page as just Canada.
The above comment was posted by an anonymous editor.
It is not enough for an encyclopedia to say "because I believe it is correct". Please review the arguments on this page. The BNA Act referecens above make it clear that the name is "Canada". Canada is a dominion, yes, but that does not make the official name the "Dominion of Canada". Canada is also a federation and a monarchy, but the name is not "Federation of Canada" or "Kingdom of Canada". How could all of those simultaneously be the official names? "Canada" is the name in the constitution, and it is the name used by the Government of Canada. Ground Zero 17:35, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
It is the name though the people actually choose it to be our name. We thought of calling ourselves Kingdom of Canada, New Britain and a bunch of others but the Dominion of Canada was the most popular so that is our name. The consituion states our name shall be the Dominon of_______ which is Canada so we are the Dominion of Canada. I think you are trying to change around a simple concept and make into something it is not. I still say we are the Dominon of Canada and it is not correct to state we are just Canada nothing else. Id revise that message or atleast put both on. Just like how Australia's consituion says they are known as the Commonwealth of Australia you hardley see them use their full name anymore but it is still technically the offical name and was chosen by the people. As is the Dominion of Canada so therefore the article is faulse in it's writings stating we are only Canada but in reality we are the Dominon of Canada. We are not called the federation of Canada because it wasn't chosen to be it and no where it says we are. It does say we are the Dominion of Canada and no where that has been ammended or changed so we are that and I think it should be put on the Canada page. As a conventional longform name or something the fact is it belongs there and it is incorrect to say it is not offical when the people of Canada choose the name ourselves and wanted the title.
I have emailed the Government of Canada website, which says it accepts questions on Canadian politics and policies. As long as they don't think the question irrevelevant, I will have an answer (from the horse's mouth, as it were) within a day or two. -- Consumed Crustacean | Talk | 04:51, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I think we all look forward to the answer to Consumed Crustacean's e-mail. In the meantime, I will point out again, that the BNA Act says:
Section 3 does not say "One Dominion under the Name the Dominion of Canada". Section 4 does not say "the Name the Dominion of Canada shall be taken to mean...."
As far as the name that the people have chosen, the people have chosen successive governments that have used only "Canada", so if we're going on what the people want, I guess we're stuck with Canada until such time as a referendum comes along on the question. (I'm not holding my breath.) Ground Zero 12:53, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
How is Canada described as on: Canadian passports; Embassies and High Commission abroad; in Canadian Acts of Parliament? Astrotrain 20:32, Jun 2, 2005 (UTC)
From the Canadian High Commission in London:
(No mention of "dominion". See [2] and [3]
From Passport Canada (the passport office), you can see pictures of the passport showing only "Canada". See [4] Ground Zero 20:49, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I'm thinking that Canada would be the proper way to refer to the country. Our passports, our government, everywhere it is reffered to as "Canada". As for the email reply, it wasn't as consice as I wished, but here's the most relevant part, I guess:
Information on the origin of the name "Canada" is accessible from the "Earth Sciences Sector" section of Natural Resources Canada's Geomatics for Sustainable Development of Natural Resources Web site at the following URL:
Canada http://geonames.nrcan.gc.ca/education/prov_e.php#CANADA
On that site, the following is said (along with why Canada was chosen, what the other possibilities were, province naming, etc. Not a bad site, but maybe not exactly what we wanted):
on July 1, 1867, "the provinces of Canada, Nova Scotia, and New Brunswick" became "one Dominion under the name of Canada".
That's that. -- Consumed Crustacean | Talk | 23:00, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
that "Dominion of" is a title that was used in reference to Canada in legal documents and the like. However, it seems to have died in usage. It's like saying "Republic of" or "Province of" or the likes. Sure, some nations use those regularily ("Repulic of Congo", eh?), but many others rarely choose to use these titles. So seems to be the case for Canada. Etc, blah blah, I'm not really wording this comment right, methinks. -- Consumed Crustacean | Talk | 23:12, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
New email correspondance between myself and some gov't agency. Canada is the name "to be used for all ordinary purposes.", and the Dominion of Canada is the name "used in formal documents such as treaties." -- Consumed Crustacean | Talk | 22:12, Jun 7, 2005 (UTC)
Over the next little while, I will be making editions to the overview article, which is WAY too long already. Please do not construe these edits as personal decisions or preferences about what should stay and what should go (e.g., mentions of Dominion, Queen's symbolism, language prevalence, geographic details) but more as what is germane to an overview article. Remember, all of this information is--or should be!--in the relevant subarticles, where elaboration, length, and detail are encouraged. Size does matter. Thanks! User:E Pluribus Anthony 06:35, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Moreover, in my attempts to keep the overview article for Canada brief though accurate, my revisions include the removal of unnecessary lanaguage ... including attempts to note the monarchy as being symbolic. To be accurate, it is symbolic AND functional with basis in law: see the Canada Act, 1867: s3 9, s4 17. Also note that there are plenty of other places in the overview article and subarticles where this is more pertinent. Thanks!
E Pluribus Anthony 22:18, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Hi there; thanks for the input. My efforts are to streamline and tidy up the article to remove extraneous language; it is clearly too long (let's keep Orwell's writing rules in mind) ... especially with relevant subarticles saying the same stuff. I am not at all arguing that the territories are 'full and equal' creatures in Confederation but, as creatures of the federal government, are still valid political subdivisions within it; any map will demonstrate this. Provinces and territories have different definitions in a Canadian context; the different tiered governments give form to the Canadian federation.
The main focus of my argument, though, is to keep such elaborations out of the overview; remember: details of territorial administration appear later in the overview and in the subarticle concerning the provinces and territories. Also note that, in the overview, the mere words 'provinces' and 'territories' link to the subarticle where such elaboration appears and is better placed.
Make sense?
E Pluribus Anthony 22:18, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I do not find such elaboration anywhere, though -- so I am reluctant to remove it from the initial section identifying Canada - esp. when it requires less wording. "Canada is a federation of 10 provinces with 3 territories" does not say that the territories are not part of the federation - though it does suggest there is something diff. about them. You are not, by chance, from one of those territories, are you? -- JimWae 22:48, 2005 Jun 2 (UTC)
---
Jim:
Hey there; thanks for your response. Notations of or allusions to the federal (or at least differing) nature of the territories can be found in:
- last paragraph of section 'Provinces and territories of Canada' in Canada article - first paragraph in article Provinces and territories of Canada
Perhaps anything regarding territorial administration should be elaborated further upon in one or both of these sections--or made more clear just the same--but NOT upfront.
'With' works for me if it works for you. I think the current edition also works, though.
And I'm from Scarborough, Ontario or should I say east Toronto . . . or just Toronto? That is another story. :)
E Pluribus Anthony 23:56, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Why does this article forget to mention that Canada borders France, more specifically it's overseas département, Saint-Pierre et Miquelon. Have we already had any discussion on this? I don't think it would make the article *too* much more legnthy to include something similar to "In addition to the United States, Canada also shares it's border with the French département of Saint-Pierre and Miquelon on the Grand Banks." Have we made any decisions on this?
I changed it to what I suggested, as what you added failed to mention that St.Pierre & Miquelon are actually a part of France, which is the key point of putting this information in there. Maxwell C. 20:14, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The link to St. Pierre and Miquelon will reveal everything a reader wants to know; Greenland is a Danish dependency, but that is appropriately kept concise in the main article. Details can be placed in the subarticle. E Pluribus Anthony 13:06, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
What is the status of the capital Ottawa? I was told that it didn't belong to Ontario and was something like a federal district or territory (like Washington DC, Canberra or Brasilia). The list of provinces and territories doesn't mention Ottawa however. Could someone please clarify, please? Thanks! Luis rib 11:18, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Since this concept appears in the second paragraph of the article, I have reverted the recent edit that put it in the first paragraph as well. The first paragraph covers the important concept that Canada is a constitutional monarchy, and that our head of state is HM the Queen. I am sure that readers can wait to get to the second paragraph to learn that Canada is a Commonwealth Realm. Let's not try to load up the intro paragraph with too much information, please. Ground Zero 16:40, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)
There seems to be an error regarding the Canada East and Canada West provinces. Nowhere does it state the two provinces were amalgamated into the province of Canada. Thus, on Confederation, four colonies cominbed to form the "Dominion of Canada", not three colonies.
i've added a neutrality box for the timed being due to some things that aren't certain, of which are listed above.
i've added a neutrality box for the timed being due to some things that aren't certain, of which are listed above, although it may not be needed, there is no harm in keeping it there temporarily. (Unsigned comment by 172.215.9.116).
HistoryBA 23:05, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Gabrielsimon has been reverting to the following statement in the History section:
I've asked for a source for the "40,000 years." His response in his edit summary states: "read what i said, its according to native tradition, sot he source is cited." In a previous revert, he said: "all aborigional creation stories hold 'since the dawn of time' thus it is wordedthis way." So far nothing about "40,000 years." Gabriel, could you please tell us where the 40,000 comes from? Sunray 14:52, 2005 Jun 14 (UTC)
aborigional tradition states ?" from the dawn of time" and so i say as far back as is reasonable, as in just after the ice retreated from the region, which is 40,000 years. im trying to be reasonable. Gabrielsimon 15:14, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
clovis poinmts found on the west coast date from over 10,000 years old. i can not find the article i saw that in, sorry. other then that, im not trying to discredit anyone, im simply putting down as close to the dawn of time as i can reasonably fimnd, tho there are native traditions that speak of times of great cold, it may be a reference to one or more ice ages.
Gabrielsimon 15:49, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)!
i was going to put a number like 400,000 becasue thats the generally accepted epoch of human begiunnnings ( as far as i understand it, in rerefernefe to homo sapiens) but i didnt want to cause trouble, though if the tradoitions are to be taken seriously, the native epople have been here since the beginning.
Gabrielsimon 15:53, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
also, there is evidance to debunk the bering straight theory... look aroubnd , its there.. ( i attned a lecture about this at mount allison ubniversity once...)
Gabrielsimon 15:53, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
because thats not true, archaological records, as i have stated, have prooven that its far before... if you wanted to use the land bridge theory to say 10 k then fine, but as i siad, theres evidance to debunk that as well. ( im just ad at finding it, i have the lecture on tape)
Gabrielsimon 16:14, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
then the bering land bridhe theory should be stricken. its a fallacey dreamt up by people who wished not to feel so bvad about stealing lands, along the folloiwing lines of thought "if they werent here to begin with, then we really didnt take it from them" now then, research clovis points, please. youll see thier age preceeds 10k.
Gabrielsimon 16:30, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
didnt i say that clearly a moment ago " i attened a lecture on the subject" of one thing, and of the other, i know some tihings but its from BOOKS, and these books arent mine, so its hard to reference them.
Gabrielsimon 16:55, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I support Sunray's version. It has the advantage of allowing for Gabriel's POV as well as scientific POVs, without asserting that any of them are correct. It has the disadvantage (from Gabriel's POV) of not emphasising the First Nations' position, but that's appropriately NPOV. It also has the disadvantage of emphasising the scientific POV because the "10,000" years is explicit, even if it's modified by "at least", but as the better-supported and more widely-accepted view, this mild emphasis is arguably appropriate. — Saxifrage | ☎ 20:01, Jun 14, 2005 (UTC)
I boldly reverted A. Lafontaine's edits which were clearly attempt to promote a particular point of view. Furthermore, they added considerable detail that would more appropriately be placed (if they were NPOV'd) into branch articles instead of this already-oversized overview article. If other editors believe that my reversion was too aggressive, please tell me so here. Ground Zero 7 July 2005 17:32 (UTC)
Reply to User:Kevintoronto (aka "Ground Zero")
PLEASE NOTE:
Please refrain from such conduct. Thank you. A. Lafontaine 8 July 2005 17:24 (UTC)
OKay, so I overlooked the edit box summary. You had made a series of edits and I did not check all of the summaries. It this really such a big deal that you have to claim "personal attacks" again, especially when your first claim of personal attacks was completely unjustified? Please try to calm down. You might wwant to consider taking a break from editing if this bothers you so much. I mean, really, if someone can't say, "This edit is POV" without it being a personal attack, then 80% of the discussion on talk pages would be shut down, and there would be no way of addressing this issue.
Thank you for providing the reference that I requested. It does not, however, as far as I can tell, say that referenda like the 1980 and 1995 ones are unconstitutional. What it says is that unilateral secession is unconsitutional. (See, in particluar, para. 87 of the reference, under "(4) The Operation of the Constitutional Principles in the Secession Context".) A big difference. I will edit accordingly.
Ground Zero 8 July 2005 17:48 (UTC)
With regard to the stuff about the sponsorship scandal, I saw you making a bunch of what I believe to be POV edits, and I thought this was one of them. On further reflection, I see your point that this does not belong here, and is covered in the Politics of Canada branch article, so I have removed it. Ground Zero 8 July 2005 18:09 (UTC)
Here is the edit that I believe to be POV, with the particularly POV parts in bold:
The way this is written leads the reader, in my opinion, to the conclusion that Trudeau's ptriation of the constitution without Quebec's agreement was perfectly reasonable, and that the only reason that Quebec did not sign was that the PQ had no interest in doing so. I agree that the PQ has a vested interest in not signing, but it should also be noted that the Quebec Liberal Party supported the PQ in this. Furthermore, my opinion about the PQ should not be reflected in the article because I cannot substantiate it. I cannot show that Levesque was bargaining in bad faith as is suggested here. Bringing up the spearatist agenda of the PQ again (it does appear elsewhere in the article) is what leads the reader. e should let him or her draw his/her own conclusions instead of leading.
Furthermore, I think this is way too much detail to put into this article. A fuller discussion of this event should, and probably does, appear in otehr articles, like History of Canada.
The previous wording was much more suitable in length, although I think it merits a re-draft. This is what it said previously:
Here is how I would re-phrase that (after deleting the lengthier description that A. Lafontaine added):
Ground Zero 8 July 2005 16:50 (UTC)
Either of these shorter versions is preferable to what is there now. A longer version can go in the Politics or Constitution articles. DJ Clayworth 8 July 2005 16:56 (UTC)
Just for the record, the Liberal Party of Quebec voiced disapproval to a new Constitution without Quebec's signature, but it never supported the demands the Separatist government's delegation made. And, exactly what should Trudeau and the other Premiers have done: Abandon the creation of our own new Constitution and Charter of Rights?Or, should they have given in to all the demands of the Separatists? These Constitutional conferences started under Lester Pearson and then John Robarts co-chaired the Task Force on Canadian Unity and then the "Confederation of Tommorrow" conferences. By 1982, it had gone for more than ten years. A. Lafontaine 8 July 2005 17:34 (UTC)
I'm not going to argue this with you because we are trying to write an encyclopaedia article, not revive old battles. The fact that you refer to "the Separatist government" indicates your point of view on this issue. Levesque was not there because he was a separatist. he was there as the Premier of the elected Government of Quebec, whether we like it or not. This issue is covered at Constitutional history of Canada, and does not belong in this already-exceeding-the-recommended-size-for-articles overview article. Ground Zero 8 July 2005 17:48 (UTC)
I understand that everyone wants to have their favourite templates on the main page for Canada, but it would make the article look awful. The page would end up being a long list of templates:
in addition to the existing "provinces and territories" and "North America" templates. And heaven forbid there is ever a UN template. Can you imagine what that would look like? Ground Zero 19:04, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
See also what Wikipedia:WikiProject countries has to say on the issue:
Ground Zero 18:47, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
But the Americans have 3 mommy! It's quite obvious we'd have to edit every country page to have only "States/Provinces" and "other countries on continent" for this to be fair. I hope you are perpared to edit about 190 pages. --
Stormscape
23:09, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
I think the Commonwealth Realms one should stay. I mean, Canada *is* one of the prime members of the Commonwealth.-- Kross 17:05, July 17, 2005 (UTC)
I stand by my longstanding objection to these templates. I also invite everyone to comment at Talk:United Kingdom and at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Countries where a proposal has been developed to completely overhaul the template footer system. - SimonP 16:15, July 17, 2005 (UTC)
The Commonwealth Realms template is on the Monarchy in Canada page, which is linked from the Canada page in several places. The list of national holidays that was posted here duplicates what is on the Holidays in Canada page. The Canada article is not intended to cover everything about Canada. There are numerous branch articles to cover the vast amount of content about Canada that Wikipedia contains. Please see the discussions above where the issue of templates and length of the article have been covered before. Thanks. Ground Zero 02:03, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
Here, for your edification and amusement, is what the bottom of the Canada article would look like if all of the templates were added. (By the way, it has been very difficult to save this page. The server doesn't seem to like it.) Does anyone think that this would be a useful way of presenting information? Ground Zero 13:00, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
Following another attempt by User:Astrotrain to impose the Commonwealth Realms template without any agreement from other editors, I have put Simon's template up. I think it works well, and provides the links that anyone should need. Ground Zero 20:10, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
No it doesn't. It is missing any mention of the provinces. Readding Provinces template until "Canada Ties" template is completed. -- Stormscape
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Discussion of Canada's official name Future TFA paragraph |
The Statute of Westminster is a pretty obscure piece of British legislation. Though it is taught for all of five seconds in Canadain high schools, nobody really pays it any notice and it is not commemerated by anybody except maybe wistfully by the Monarchist Club. The British North America Act(1867) is usually the date given for the founding of Canada as an independant country. And an arguement could be made for the Constitution Act(1982)which finally removed the right for appeal to the British Privy Council for criminal cases. Even now the Head of State appointed by the Queen of England can disolve Parliament and force an election. The First Nations still have treaties with the British Crown because of treaties entered into before July 1st 1867. When the Canadain government fails in its treaty responsibilities Natives still press their case in Westminster. I don't think that it has a stronger claim than 1867.
First of all, it's the Monarchist LEAGUE, not the "Monarchist Club". Also, there is no Queen of England, as England is not its own kingdom, it is a constituent country of the UNITED KINGDOM. You should really say "The Queen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland". Canada does not have any sort of head of state APPOINTED by our Queen. That is entirely impossible, as the Queen herself is our head of state (You don't believe me? British North America Act, Section IV. Executive power, paragraph one, sentence one -- I think). If you believe Her Excellency the Govenor General is our head of state, you are wrong, as she is simply a Representative of our head of state (the Queen).
Two16 06:47 Jan 10, 2003 (UTC)
About the name of the country, s3. of Constitution Act of 1867: "one dominion under the name of Canada". -- Vasile 12:38, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Yes, "under the name of Canada" not "under the name of the Dominion of Canada", a phrase which appears no where in the BNA Act 1867. AndyL 01:12, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Do many other country sites have sections devoted to the origin of the name? Since the name of Canada is so contentious (Canada vs Dominion of Canada) and there is already an article Canada's Name, why is the Naming section still there? Is there a REDIRECT from Dominion of Canada? The article is getting quite long and we are getting warning messages about its length.-- BrentS 17:29, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Canadians may know the names of the provinces, but nowhere are they listed in the article - even the section on Provinces and Territories barely MENTIONS in passing Quebec and Yukon. This is not how a main article should be constructed. I suggest that the details about geography means little to non-Canadians if they do not already know which place names refer to the provinces. The provinces are a basic political unit & essential to understanding Canada. If there is concern about article length, I suggest that the extensive details in the sections on Geography, Provinces & Territories, and Politics be moved to their respective sub-articles. I have reinserted the listing of the names of the provinces & territories into the article. -- JimWae 17:38, 2005 Apr 9 (UTC)
The chart that lists the provinces/territories, their capitals, and the regions in whcih they are located concerns me. There is a thousand ways to carve Canada up into regions, and there will never be any agreement on the correct way to do it. I suggest deleting the regions from this chart as it is inherently POV and subject to debate. That debate can be caried on in the article about the regiosn of Canada, instead on the main page for the country. Comments? Ground Zero 19:02, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Please somebody else please go to Template:Canada_infobox & revert vandalism -I've already done my limit -- JimWae 03:32, 2005 Apr 20 (UTC)
Why is the Red Ensign in there? I'm pretty sure that flag is obsolete, and even if it's still used somewhere for something, it's 40 years out of date as a national flag. Other country pages don't seem to have old flags on display.
I put the flag there because I feel it belongs there. This flag is part of our country and part of our history a lot of people feel that it should be next to the offical flag as it is called. When the Maple Leaf flag was proclaimed our flag in no way did anyone say the former one was obsolete rather that it may be used still with equal stature to the new flag. This is our flag too and I think it belongs next to the other one. my father fought under the Red Ensign for Canada and his father did before him and his father before him. A lot of people consider this the true Canadian flag and im only trying to put the flag in it's rightful place. Call it the royal flag or the former flag underneath then but I feel it needs to be there. For the culture bit was a work in progress I don't understand why this is called an open webserver when people won't let you post anything? I am in no way vandalising as you put it im just adding information that I think should be there and it is not offensive in anyway. (posted by User:Vanman2010)
Okay I apologise I was just trying to give some information about Canada. But still can't the Canadian Red Ensign be on any part of the Canada page? What exactly can I even add to the page? Also about beliefs the whole page is someones belief and I think there is more to Canadian culture than some gay people getting married and some marijuana users don't you? But if im not allowed to add things to the page I won't then. (Unsigned post by Vanman2010)
Well I thought it was a nice looking one and got if off a Canadian government website. Well I was going to add more for culture including american influences and other cultures for that matter but was researching more information didn't think people would jump on it so quickly. Anyway im not going to add anything to Canada seems like as soon as you do anything or update something it gets changed back lol some people must be really protective of their work. I just wish the page truly reflected the country.
Sincerly,
Vanman2010
== Culture == - In this article Canadian culture was described beyond our traditions and customs to supposedly include liberal social policies and conservative fiscal policies supposedly supported by most Canadians and Canadian governments. I won't bother rewording the paragraph myself, but I would suggest a change as those statements are innacurate. First of all every Canadian government from 1867 to 1984 opposed the idea of free trade and in the free trade election of 1988, despite the Tory majority, 57% of Canadians voted against the deal and many still oppose it today or at least want it reformed.
Also in respect to same sex marriage current polls done this year (2005) by a variety of sources (the CBC, EKOS, the National Post, Environics, etc.) show a good majority of Canadians opposed to changing the traditional definition, so I think that it is misleading to define Canadian culture as including controversial and not popularly accepted political policies like free trade and same sex marriage. On health care and balanced budgets however the author was very correct those are two strongly suppoted political practices in this country, most Canadians are dissatisfied with some aspects of health care service, but support for universal health care is almost uninanamous in this country. The same can be said, since 1993 anyway for support for balanced fiscal budgets as well.
Well in light of what recently happened, I would like to see some overhauling of the Culture section myself. I have made a few feeble attempts at this with the 'early europeans' paragraph. (posted as an unown prior to me joining). -- Diskadia
According to polls that I have seen over the past year a majority of Canadians either support same-sex marriage, or they are almost evenly devided on the issue (with big regional differences). For the most part, I think the reference to same-sex marriage in the article is fine, but I have a problem with the constant references to the US in this section. There is am implication there that we have same-sex marriage, free trade, etc. just to distinguish ourselves from the US. That's absurd. It makes no sense to suggest that everything that has evolved in Canada has done so as a reaction to American culture.
Also, I agree with Montrealais. The fact that there is no mention of francophone culture in the culture section of an article about Canada is a big oversight. -Andrew
An anonymous editor inserted a note that Canada is "more formally known as the Confederation of Canada without any explanation. Let's be clear: the Government of Canada is the organization in charge of these things. It calls the country "Canada", and not anything else. How can it be "formally known as" something that the Government of Canada or its constitution does not call it?
Wikipedia is not the place to promote your pet project of changing Canada's name and/or description. Rant completed. Thank you for your time. Ground Zero 18:12, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
There has been some back-and-forth in edits about where French is commonly spoken in Ontario: eastern and southern Ontario, or eastern and northern Ontario. While there are many francophones in southern Ontario, they form only a small percentage of the population; it is northern Ontario that (together with eastern Ontario) contains most communities with a large percentage of francophones, such as North Bay, Timmins, Kapuskasing, and Hearst. David 18:10, 2005 Apr 30 (UTC)
User:Cause of death - a one day user did a massive revert today w/o comment - I am restoring
A recent edit changed introductory paragraph from saying that Canada was a 'soverign state' to a 'soverign country'. I don't think that new choice in terminology is appropriate in this case. If you look at the linked article for 'country' you see a distinction that 'country' refers specifically to a geographic region, while 'state' refers to an independent political unit. I don't much care if we choose to use the word 'country' instead of 'state'. But, to call it a 'soverign country' seems to be a misnomer; you're mixing the geographic and the political. So, is this article talking about a political unit that happens to exist on one contiguous piece of land, or are we talking about a piece of land that happens to be occupied by have an independent state? 24.222.2.222Luke
I keep trying to move the all-caps page starting with something like CANADA IS THE BEST back here and it doesn't appear to work! Somebody please explain. Georgia guy 02:03, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
I tried to move a completely unrelated article and got a "Stop trying to move Canada message" - wierd. Where did Canada go to, anyway? NoAccount
Part of the problem was that too many people were trying to move it back. It's now back where it belongs, and protected against moves. Nobody should need to move the article on a whim, so it's no big loss. -- Cyrius| ✎ 02:34, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
The first sentence says Canada is the northern-most country in the world. Looking at a map, it appears part of Greenland is farther north. Which is correct? NoAccount 02:41, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
The territory of Canada include the north pole...can't be more north than that...
The north pole forms part of Canada's maritime border. This point also forms the borders of at least Greenland, Russia, and the United States (Alaska). If the "north pole is part of Canada" logic is used, then technically all four countries are "the northern-most country in the world"
Why are the links to this article on the front page showing in red? -- Jfruh 03:07, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
I would agree.-- CanadianPride 00:09, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
--Instead of having all of these skyline photos sprinkled randomly throughout the article, shouldn't there be a section called "Important Cities" like the one under the United States? There's currently nothing in this article that lists the top 10 (or 20) Canadian cities/metropolitan areas. -- Jleon 15:46, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
But Canada is never refered to as such in common dialog, I have never heard Canada called a state in my 20 years of living here. It is always called a country. However, according to the strict defintion found at country, state is the proper word to be used. The dictionary defintion is not as strict though, and therefore country could be used. Going with the strict defintion is fine, but, and here is the big but, all the articles on the states of the USA must explicitly state that they are not actually states. But are just called states. Fair is only fair. -- metta, The Sunborn 19:45, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
I'm surprised that no attention was paid to the govt. of Canada reference I provided in my edit summary. If I'm incorrect, I would like to learn why, but please do me the courtesy of revewing and adressing the source I provided beforehand. El_C 08:17, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
Sorry, El C, I couldn't find reference at reference to "Canadian Federation" being the official name of the country. There is a lot of information there. Perhaps you could point to exactly where to find it. In fact, the one reference I did find (in the section on 2003) was to the "Canadian federation", i.e., 'federation' was not capitalized, which indicates that it is not being used as a title.
I have trouble agreeing with your conclusion in any event: it seems that the Government of Canada, the Supreme Court of Canada and the Parliament of Canada are unlikely to be using the incorrect or informal name. At the United Nations and other international bodies, the name is only "Canada", even though many other countries use their full names. As far as I can tell, the only name for this country now is "Canada", not dominion, federation or confederation.
See the discussion above on "Canada" vs. "Dominion of Canada". Alex756 points out that:
This is equally true for "Canadian Federation". The term just isn't used.
And SunirShah (64.229.25.227 ) provides the following from the BNA Act:
It does not say "Canadian Federation". Hmmm... while normally I would wait for a response, in this case, I think there is convincing evidence that the name is just "Canada", and not anything else, so I am going to make that change. El C, I encourage you to review this full talk page.
I have removed the "later" from the sentence about being granted dominion status. It is clear from historical documents, not just the constitution, that the term "dominion" was being used right from the beginning. See:
I have made another change: Canada is not a federation of 10 provs + 3 territories. The territories are federal lands that are organized as territories for administration. The territories do not have any constitutional status as do the provinces. Ground Zero Ground Zero 13:46, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
I would suggest that we try to work out a compromise that reflects User:JimWae's valid point the "divided into" isn't correct, and User:E Pluribus Anthony's that we shouldn't get into the constitutional status of the territories in the overview section. I'm am sure that if we work together we can figure something out. Ground Zero 21:00, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
---
Thanks for the feedback; it seems that we're picking too many nits out of this. It also seems JimWae was not privy to our agreement, GroundZero, to edit the statement "e.g., divided into..." My contention is that just because Canada's territories are federally administered does not mean they are not federated (as the territories are federal creations and this is implicit in a Canadian context) nor does it mean they do not comprise the federal state; after all, that is what a federation is (with the political subdivisions and tiered divisions of powers and responsibilities that entails, etc.). The goal in the overview is just that, to be summative, and be clear all the same: explanations regarding the administration of the territories should be reserved for those sections and related articles: consult the 'Provinces and territories' section and articles (where this statement also appears!)
If this remains an issue, I suggest completely reworking the overview to cleave mentions of Canada being a federation and what it is divided into, i.e., put each in different sentences.
I would also suggest de-emphasising what the official name is (keep the styled note, get rid of the rest); there's a section for that too. (I merely made the editions to make that sentence flow better.)
Thoughts and thanks.
User:E_Pluribus_Anthony 07:27, 28 May 2005 (UTC)
The history of Canada section states that "...Canada included all of its present area except for Alberta and Saskatchewan (...) and Newfoundland..." by 1880. That doesn't seem accurate to me. The fact is, Canada claimed jurisdiction over all of its present lands (except for Newfoundland and Labrador) starting from the date that it purchased the Northwest Territories and Rupert's Land. The Government of Canada Atlas ( http://atlas.gc.ca/site/english/maps/historical/territorialevolution) depicts this process as having been completed by 1881. In 1905, Alberta and Saskatchewan were annexed from the NWT to exist as provinces, to improve the ability to govern the West in the wake of the gold rush. 24.222.2.222Luke
(Moved from Canada.
Reply: The official name of Canada is the Dominion of Canada whether people use it or not we are still a Consitutional Monarchy and a Dominion of equal status in the Commonwealth. For example the United States of America is sometimes just called "America" that doesn't mean that is now their official name. Canada is still a Domonion in the Commonwealth and until we become a republic which will probebly never happen we are still the Dominion of Canada. There is no where that states we are not the Dominion of Canada but there is evidence that says we are so im going to change it to the longform name Dominion of Canada because I believe it is correct techinically but leave the page as just Canada.
The above comment was posted by an anonymous editor.
It is not enough for an encyclopedia to say "because I believe it is correct". Please review the arguments on this page. The BNA Act referecens above make it clear that the name is "Canada". Canada is a dominion, yes, but that does not make the official name the "Dominion of Canada". Canada is also a federation and a monarchy, but the name is not "Federation of Canada" or "Kingdom of Canada". How could all of those simultaneously be the official names? "Canada" is the name in the constitution, and it is the name used by the Government of Canada. Ground Zero 17:35, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
It is the name though the people actually choose it to be our name. We thought of calling ourselves Kingdom of Canada, New Britain and a bunch of others but the Dominion of Canada was the most popular so that is our name. The consituion states our name shall be the Dominon of_______ which is Canada so we are the Dominion of Canada. I think you are trying to change around a simple concept and make into something it is not. I still say we are the Dominon of Canada and it is not correct to state we are just Canada nothing else. Id revise that message or atleast put both on. Just like how Australia's consituion says they are known as the Commonwealth of Australia you hardley see them use their full name anymore but it is still technically the offical name and was chosen by the people. As is the Dominion of Canada so therefore the article is faulse in it's writings stating we are only Canada but in reality we are the Dominon of Canada. We are not called the federation of Canada because it wasn't chosen to be it and no where it says we are. It does say we are the Dominion of Canada and no where that has been ammended or changed so we are that and I think it should be put on the Canada page. As a conventional longform name or something the fact is it belongs there and it is incorrect to say it is not offical when the people of Canada choose the name ourselves and wanted the title.
I have emailed the Government of Canada website, which says it accepts questions on Canadian politics and policies. As long as they don't think the question irrevelevant, I will have an answer (from the horse's mouth, as it were) within a day or two. -- Consumed Crustacean | Talk | 04:51, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I think we all look forward to the answer to Consumed Crustacean's e-mail. In the meantime, I will point out again, that the BNA Act says:
Section 3 does not say "One Dominion under the Name the Dominion of Canada". Section 4 does not say "the Name the Dominion of Canada shall be taken to mean...."
As far as the name that the people have chosen, the people have chosen successive governments that have used only "Canada", so if we're going on what the people want, I guess we're stuck with Canada until such time as a referendum comes along on the question. (I'm not holding my breath.) Ground Zero 12:53, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
How is Canada described as on: Canadian passports; Embassies and High Commission abroad; in Canadian Acts of Parliament? Astrotrain 20:32, Jun 2, 2005 (UTC)
From the Canadian High Commission in London:
(No mention of "dominion". See [2] and [3]
From Passport Canada (the passport office), you can see pictures of the passport showing only "Canada". See [4] Ground Zero 20:49, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I'm thinking that Canada would be the proper way to refer to the country. Our passports, our government, everywhere it is reffered to as "Canada". As for the email reply, it wasn't as consice as I wished, but here's the most relevant part, I guess:
Information on the origin of the name "Canada" is accessible from the "Earth Sciences Sector" section of Natural Resources Canada's Geomatics for Sustainable Development of Natural Resources Web site at the following URL:
Canada http://geonames.nrcan.gc.ca/education/prov_e.php#CANADA
On that site, the following is said (along with why Canada was chosen, what the other possibilities were, province naming, etc. Not a bad site, but maybe not exactly what we wanted):
on July 1, 1867, "the provinces of Canada, Nova Scotia, and New Brunswick" became "one Dominion under the name of Canada".
That's that. -- Consumed Crustacean | Talk | 23:00, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
that "Dominion of" is a title that was used in reference to Canada in legal documents and the like. However, it seems to have died in usage. It's like saying "Republic of" or "Province of" or the likes. Sure, some nations use those regularily ("Repulic of Congo", eh?), but many others rarely choose to use these titles. So seems to be the case for Canada. Etc, blah blah, I'm not really wording this comment right, methinks. -- Consumed Crustacean | Talk | 23:12, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
New email correspondance between myself and some gov't agency. Canada is the name "to be used for all ordinary purposes.", and the Dominion of Canada is the name "used in formal documents such as treaties." -- Consumed Crustacean | Talk | 22:12, Jun 7, 2005 (UTC)
Over the next little while, I will be making editions to the overview article, which is WAY too long already. Please do not construe these edits as personal decisions or preferences about what should stay and what should go (e.g., mentions of Dominion, Queen's symbolism, language prevalence, geographic details) but more as what is germane to an overview article. Remember, all of this information is--or should be!--in the relevant subarticles, where elaboration, length, and detail are encouraged. Size does matter. Thanks! User:E Pluribus Anthony 06:35, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Moreover, in my attempts to keep the overview article for Canada brief though accurate, my revisions include the removal of unnecessary lanaguage ... including attempts to note the monarchy as being symbolic. To be accurate, it is symbolic AND functional with basis in law: see the Canada Act, 1867: s3 9, s4 17. Also note that there are plenty of other places in the overview article and subarticles where this is more pertinent. Thanks!
E Pluribus Anthony 22:18, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Hi there; thanks for the input. My efforts are to streamline and tidy up the article to remove extraneous language; it is clearly too long (let's keep Orwell's writing rules in mind) ... especially with relevant subarticles saying the same stuff. I am not at all arguing that the territories are 'full and equal' creatures in Confederation but, as creatures of the federal government, are still valid political subdivisions within it; any map will demonstrate this. Provinces and territories have different definitions in a Canadian context; the different tiered governments give form to the Canadian federation.
The main focus of my argument, though, is to keep such elaborations out of the overview; remember: details of territorial administration appear later in the overview and in the subarticle concerning the provinces and territories. Also note that, in the overview, the mere words 'provinces' and 'territories' link to the subarticle where such elaboration appears and is better placed.
Make sense?
E Pluribus Anthony 22:18, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I do not find such elaboration anywhere, though -- so I am reluctant to remove it from the initial section identifying Canada - esp. when it requires less wording. "Canada is a federation of 10 provinces with 3 territories" does not say that the territories are not part of the federation - though it does suggest there is something diff. about them. You are not, by chance, from one of those territories, are you? -- JimWae 22:48, 2005 Jun 2 (UTC)
---
Jim:
Hey there; thanks for your response. Notations of or allusions to the federal (or at least differing) nature of the territories can be found in:
- last paragraph of section 'Provinces and territories of Canada' in Canada article - first paragraph in article Provinces and territories of Canada
Perhaps anything regarding territorial administration should be elaborated further upon in one or both of these sections--or made more clear just the same--but NOT upfront.
'With' works for me if it works for you. I think the current edition also works, though.
And I'm from Scarborough, Ontario or should I say east Toronto . . . or just Toronto? That is another story. :)
E Pluribus Anthony 23:56, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Why does this article forget to mention that Canada borders France, more specifically it's overseas département, Saint-Pierre et Miquelon. Have we already had any discussion on this? I don't think it would make the article *too* much more legnthy to include something similar to "In addition to the United States, Canada also shares it's border with the French département of Saint-Pierre and Miquelon on the Grand Banks." Have we made any decisions on this?
I changed it to what I suggested, as what you added failed to mention that St.Pierre & Miquelon are actually a part of France, which is the key point of putting this information in there. Maxwell C. 20:14, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The link to St. Pierre and Miquelon will reveal everything a reader wants to know; Greenland is a Danish dependency, but that is appropriately kept concise in the main article. Details can be placed in the subarticle. E Pluribus Anthony 13:06, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
What is the status of the capital Ottawa? I was told that it didn't belong to Ontario and was something like a federal district or territory (like Washington DC, Canberra or Brasilia). The list of provinces and territories doesn't mention Ottawa however. Could someone please clarify, please? Thanks! Luis rib 11:18, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Since this concept appears in the second paragraph of the article, I have reverted the recent edit that put it in the first paragraph as well. The first paragraph covers the important concept that Canada is a constitutional monarchy, and that our head of state is HM the Queen. I am sure that readers can wait to get to the second paragraph to learn that Canada is a Commonwealth Realm. Let's not try to load up the intro paragraph with too much information, please. Ground Zero 16:40, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)
There seems to be an error regarding the Canada East and Canada West provinces. Nowhere does it state the two provinces were amalgamated into the province of Canada. Thus, on Confederation, four colonies cominbed to form the "Dominion of Canada", not three colonies.
i've added a neutrality box for the timed being due to some things that aren't certain, of which are listed above.
i've added a neutrality box for the timed being due to some things that aren't certain, of which are listed above, although it may not be needed, there is no harm in keeping it there temporarily. (Unsigned comment by 172.215.9.116).
HistoryBA 23:05, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Gabrielsimon has been reverting to the following statement in the History section:
I've asked for a source for the "40,000 years." His response in his edit summary states: "read what i said, its according to native tradition, sot he source is cited." In a previous revert, he said: "all aborigional creation stories hold 'since the dawn of time' thus it is wordedthis way." So far nothing about "40,000 years." Gabriel, could you please tell us where the 40,000 comes from? Sunray 14:52, 2005 Jun 14 (UTC)
aborigional tradition states ?" from the dawn of time" and so i say as far back as is reasonable, as in just after the ice retreated from the region, which is 40,000 years. im trying to be reasonable. Gabrielsimon 15:14, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
clovis poinmts found on the west coast date from over 10,000 years old. i can not find the article i saw that in, sorry. other then that, im not trying to discredit anyone, im simply putting down as close to the dawn of time as i can reasonably fimnd, tho there are native traditions that speak of times of great cold, it may be a reference to one or more ice ages.
Gabrielsimon 15:49, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)!
i was going to put a number like 400,000 becasue thats the generally accepted epoch of human begiunnnings ( as far as i understand it, in rerefernefe to homo sapiens) but i didnt want to cause trouble, though if the tradoitions are to be taken seriously, the native epople have been here since the beginning.
Gabrielsimon 15:53, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
also, there is evidance to debunk the bering straight theory... look aroubnd , its there.. ( i attned a lecture about this at mount allison ubniversity once...)
Gabrielsimon 15:53, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
because thats not true, archaological records, as i have stated, have prooven that its far before... if you wanted to use the land bridge theory to say 10 k then fine, but as i siad, theres evidance to debunk that as well. ( im just ad at finding it, i have the lecture on tape)
Gabrielsimon 16:14, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
then the bering land bridhe theory should be stricken. its a fallacey dreamt up by people who wished not to feel so bvad about stealing lands, along the folloiwing lines of thought "if they werent here to begin with, then we really didnt take it from them" now then, research clovis points, please. youll see thier age preceeds 10k.
Gabrielsimon 16:30, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
didnt i say that clearly a moment ago " i attened a lecture on the subject" of one thing, and of the other, i know some tihings but its from BOOKS, and these books arent mine, so its hard to reference them.
Gabrielsimon 16:55, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I support Sunray's version. It has the advantage of allowing for Gabriel's POV as well as scientific POVs, without asserting that any of them are correct. It has the disadvantage (from Gabriel's POV) of not emphasising the First Nations' position, but that's appropriately NPOV. It also has the disadvantage of emphasising the scientific POV because the "10,000" years is explicit, even if it's modified by "at least", but as the better-supported and more widely-accepted view, this mild emphasis is arguably appropriate. — Saxifrage | ☎ 20:01, Jun 14, 2005 (UTC)
I boldly reverted A. Lafontaine's edits which were clearly attempt to promote a particular point of view. Furthermore, they added considerable detail that would more appropriately be placed (if they were NPOV'd) into branch articles instead of this already-oversized overview article. If other editors believe that my reversion was too aggressive, please tell me so here. Ground Zero 7 July 2005 17:32 (UTC)
Reply to User:Kevintoronto (aka "Ground Zero")
PLEASE NOTE:
Please refrain from such conduct. Thank you. A. Lafontaine 8 July 2005 17:24 (UTC)
OKay, so I overlooked the edit box summary. You had made a series of edits and I did not check all of the summaries. It this really such a big deal that you have to claim "personal attacks" again, especially when your first claim of personal attacks was completely unjustified? Please try to calm down. You might wwant to consider taking a break from editing if this bothers you so much. I mean, really, if someone can't say, "This edit is POV" without it being a personal attack, then 80% of the discussion on talk pages would be shut down, and there would be no way of addressing this issue.
Thank you for providing the reference that I requested. It does not, however, as far as I can tell, say that referenda like the 1980 and 1995 ones are unconstitutional. What it says is that unilateral secession is unconsitutional. (See, in particluar, para. 87 of the reference, under "(4) The Operation of the Constitutional Principles in the Secession Context".) A big difference. I will edit accordingly.
Ground Zero 8 July 2005 17:48 (UTC)
With regard to the stuff about the sponsorship scandal, I saw you making a bunch of what I believe to be POV edits, and I thought this was one of them. On further reflection, I see your point that this does not belong here, and is covered in the Politics of Canada branch article, so I have removed it. Ground Zero 8 July 2005 18:09 (UTC)
Here is the edit that I believe to be POV, with the particularly POV parts in bold:
The way this is written leads the reader, in my opinion, to the conclusion that Trudeau's ptriation of the constitution without Quebec's agreement was perfectly reasonable, and that the only reason that Quebec did not sign was that the PQ had no interest in doing so. I agree that the PQ has a vested interest in not signing, but it should also be noted that the Quebec Liberal Party supported the PQ in this. Furthermore, my opinion about the PQ should not be reflected in the article because I cannot substantiate it. I cannot show that Levesque was bargaining in bad faith as is suggested here. Bringing up the spearatist agenda of the PQ again (it does appear elsewhere in the article) is what leads the reader. e should let him or her draw his/her own conclusions instead of leading.
Furthermore, I think this is way too much detail to put into this article. A fuller discussion of this event should, and probably does, appear in otehr articles, like History of Canada.
The previous wording was much more suitable in length, although I think it merits a re-draft. This is what it said previously:
Here is how I would re-phrase that (after deleting the lengthier description that A. Lafontaine added):
Ground Zero 8 July 2005 16:50 (UTC)
Either of these shorter versions is preferable to what is there now. A longer version can go in the Politics or Constitution articles. DJ Clayworth 8 July 2005 16:56 (UTC)
Just for the record, the Liberal Party of Quebec voiced disapproval to a new Constitution without Quebec's signature, but it never supported the demands the Separatist government's delegation made. And, exactly what should Trudeau and the other Premiers have done: Abandon the creation of our own new Constitution and Charter of Rights?Or, should they have given in to all the demands of the Separatists? These Constitutional conferences started under Lester Pearson and then John Robarts co-chaired the Task Force on Canadian Unity and then the "Confederation of Tommorrow" conferences. By 1982, it had gone for more than ten years. A. Lafontaine 8 July 2005 17:34 (UTC)
I'm not going to argue this with you because we are trying to write an encyclopaedia article, not revive old battles. The fact that you refer to "the Separatist government" indicates your point of view on this issue. Levesque was not there because he was a separatist. he was there as the Premier of the elected Government of Quebec, whether we like it or not. This issue is covered at Constitutional history of Canada, and does not belong in this already-exceeding-the-recommended-size-for-articles overview article. Ground Zero 8 July 2005 17:48 (UTC)
I understand that everyone wants to have their favourite templates on the main page for Canada, but it would make the article look awful. The page would end up being a long list of templates:
in addition to the existing "provinces and territories" and "North America" templates. And heaven forbid there is ever a UN template. Can you imagine what that would look like? Ground Zero 19:04, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
See also what Wikipedia:WikiProject countries has to say on the issue:
Ground Zero 18:47, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
But the Americans have 3 mommy! It's quite obvious we'd have to edit every country page to have only "States/Provinces" and "other countries on continent" for this to be fair. I hope you are perpared to edit about 190 pages. --
Stormscape
23:09, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
I think the Commonwealth Realms one should stay. I mean, Canada *is* one of the prime members of the Commonwealth.-- Kross 17:05, July 17, 2005 (UTC)
I stand by my longstanding objection to these templates. I also invite everyone to comment at Talk:United Kingdom and at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Countries where a proposal has been developed to completely overhaul the template footer system. - SimonP 16:15, July 17, 2005 (UTC)
The Commonwealth Realms template is on the Monarchy in Canada page, which is linked from the Canada page in several places. The list of national holidays that was posted here duplicates what is on the Holidays in Canada page. The Canada article is not intended to cover everything about Canada. There are numerous branch articles to cover the vast amount of content about Canada that Wikipedia contains. Please see the discussions above where the issue of templates and length of the article have been covered before. Thanks. Ground Zero 02:03, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
Here, for your edification and amusement, is what the bottom of the Canada article would look like if all of the templates were added. (By the way, it has been very difficult to save this page. The server doesn't seem to like it.) Does anyone think that this would be a useful way of presenting information? Ground Zero 13:00, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
Following another attempt by User:Astrotrain to impose the Commonwealth Realms template without any agreement from other editors, I have put Simon's template up. I think it works well, and provides the links that anyone should need. Ground Zero 20:10, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
No it doesn't. It is missing any mention of the provinces. Readding Provinces template until "Canada Ties" template is completed. -- Stormscape