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Sources sub-page —Preceding unsigned comment added by Minerva ( talk • contribs) 22:25, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
How do you feel about merging Camp Delta, Camp X-ray Camp Iguana, and Camp Echo as a subsection to Guantanamo Bay? Wouldn't it be better to have one, well-written, NPOV article, without all the mispellings and typos. Joaquin Murietta 22:23, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
Actually, the opposite megre is in order: remove all camps into a separate article or articles, leaving Guantanamo Bay to purely geographical and historical info, with a brief summary about camps/abuse, according to wikipedia traditions.. There are two articles, Camp Delta and Camp Iguana, (with X-ray and Echo redirecting to Delta) which is reasonable division of topics. mikka (t) 19:10, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
Based on the discussion and lack of objections at Camp X-Ray, I merged Camp X-Ray to this article. Please discuss whether to merge this article with Guantanamo Bay.Also merged to this article Camp Echo. Again, shall we edit this into something better and then merger to Guantanamo Bay? Joaquin Murietta 15:26, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
You are doing a good job. Keep it up. WAS 4.250 20:47, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
Thank you for the comments and your edits. I'll wait a week and see how the edit of Camp Delta evolves, then if there is no objection, I will merge to the other topic. I am still concerned about achieving a NPOV tone. Joaquin Murietta 01:59, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
Merge Camp Delta in to Guantanamo Bay, since Camp Delta is a part of Guantanamo bay.( 210.214.11.181 07:47, 23 February 2006 (UTC)) - yeah right, shall we merge Texas with USA for the same reason? -- Daz 16:41, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
I'm of the opinion that the Guantanamo Bay entry should be geographical and historical focused on the bay and base as a whole with references to the individual camps. The camps themselves should be covered in a separate article or articles since they have a different focus, i.e. their uses primarily as prisons. Reverendlinux 10:26, 23 February 2006 (UTC) reverendlinux
DO NOT MERGE Camp Delta & Guantanamo Bay, rather simply camp delta is a short term poltical reference, Guantanamo Bay is a geographical area that has long history that pre dates Camp Delta by nearly 100 years. Camp Delta is a part of Guantanamo Bay (geographically & historically) they are are only synonymous due to popular media reporting. They should remain seperate as they are 2 distinct entities, they are not the same! -- Daz 16:38, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
There are a lot of articles, news articles, legal papers etc. cited under External references. Do we need all of them? Which ones? Joaquin Murietta 02:41, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
Pleas don't delete SOURCES (i.e. references). Sources are not just a bunch of "further reading". They are the EVIDENCE that the content is accurate and not a bunch of POV blogging. It would be helpful to tie specific claims in the article to specific sources, but this is volunteer labor so you have to give it time until someone volunteers to do that. So the answer is ALL references that are actually references ARE indeed needed. WAS 4.250 08:50, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
Also, this is an encyclopedia and not a newspaper so don't delete based on being "out of date". The prison population history including every arrival and every departure is encyclopedic (we have plenty of room here at wikipedia). Rather than delete the population count of a particular date, more such counts need to be added. WAS 4.250 09:17, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
Should we start a new article, drag all this over to it and put a redirect on Camp Delta's page? Someone commented over on Guantanamo Bay that the prisons deserve their own topic. Joaquin Murietta 15:34, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
Camp Echo is a detention center where pre-commissions are held.
However, the term "Camp X-Ray" has come to be used as a synonym for the entire facility where prisoners from the U.S. invasion of Afghanistan are detained.
The U.S. government justifies this designation by claiming that they do not have the status of either regular soldiers nor that of guerrillas, and they are not part of a regular army or militia. (pov -- JUSTIFIES)
The U.S. government has denied all charges, but on May 9, the Washington Post obtained classified documents that showed Pentagon approval of using sleep deprivation, exposure to hot and cold, bright lights, and loud music during interrogations at Guantanamo
Joaquin, may I be so bold as to make a suggestion to an obviously competant editor? Make a couple of non-data-deleting changes a day. That way, each change can be reviewed by all those watching this page. I fully expect most such chages by you will recieve no comments or reverts at all with each watcher silently approving the change. A big change or a data removal change is very likely to be reverted by somebody for some reason. This is a very touchy subject with emotions running high. Treatment of prisoners and other Iraq and civil rights related issues are among the elections issues in the United States and thus REAL power is at stake over this and related issues. WAS 4.250 07:14, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
I believe the Neutrality of This Article is Disputed. It has a clear, obvious bias aganist the United States and, I dare say, a pro-British bias.
In addition to the concerns cited above, after Geuhene's changes (particularly adding "torture" to every other sentence), it can no longer be disputed that this article is not written from a neutral point of view. Rather than get into a revert war, I have tagged it POV. Allegations of torture (however true I think they may be) are allegations. They are not indisputable facts, and it should not be implied (or outright stated, as it is here) otherwise. Kafziel 18:08, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
They are clear proofs of acts of tortures on the prisoners and on the illegitimacy of this prison. Should this article be tagged as not-neutral?
Where did I threaten anyone? Quote that for me, please. By "bite" (which I linked to an article explaining it) I meant that I'm trying to be nice. Do you really think I'm going to literally bite you?? Clearly, again, this is a language barrier problem.
I do not mean to "disparage" your language skills, and have no problem correcting your mistakes; I've been trying to do that in the article for the past couple of days. What I meant was that my user page is very long and complicated but I wanted to let you know that if you are able to read it you will see that we agree on this subject.
Finally, you claim your argument "has never been 'If we can't have POV, why...'", but your argument was exactly that. You said, "We should just not write this encyclopedia althogether then, because whatever we may write is subject to the writer's interpretation." Then you sent me some link to the meaning of existence. I have to tell you, you're not making a lot of sense here.
I'm really not one to do this, but I'm going to have to have to ask for arbitration to decide this one. I can't spend any more time on this bizarre argument; all I want is to make the article NPOV. Kafziel 14:42, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
This will have to be my last attempt to show you what I'm saying about maintaining a neutral tone. I've spent too much time on this already. Performing a word search for "torture" brings up 19 results in this article. By searching for "torture" in other articles, this is what I found:
As you can see, the article on Camp Delta, just a little prisoner camp in Cuba, has more instances of the word "torture" than the Spanish inquisition, the Tower of London, and the Holocaust put together. Do you think that's an accurate representation?
Hopefully someone from the mediation cabal will be here soon to have a look at the situation, but in the meantime I hope you will consider revising your edits; if articles can be written about Goebbels and Himmler without using the word "torture" even once, then certainly we can do the same here. Kafziel 16:24, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
TDC removed the POV tag because he removed all of your changes. He changed it back to the way I had it, removing all trace of your POV, and therefore it didn't need the tag anymore. Hinotori agrees with him. The fact that you haven't noticed the changes to the article tells me you're just here to argue, and you don't care about the state of the article itself at all. Kafziel 00:32, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
Well, it looks like the two of you are getting along fairly well now. Since I have other articles I'm invested in, I'm going to pull out of this one for now, but if there are any future problems and you two need a third opinion again, feel free to grab me on my talk page anytime. Cheers. :) -- Hinotori (talk)| (ctrb) 01:05, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
Hello -- there was a request for a visit from the medcabal about the "torture" dispute [7] made two days ago. As far as I can tell (the discussion is very long!) this particular dispute has been resolved to everyone's satisfaction. Please inform me if I'm wrong; best thing is to contact me on my talk page.
One remark: the word "torture" is tough. I would recommend when describing the information from a particular source using the language you find there. If you think a source describes torture but doesn't use the word, don't feel free to use it yourself.
I looked over the article myself, and it seems to need further work. For example, paragraphs seems rather strangely strung together, e.g.:
In any case, I think the article needs more work, and in particular, better organization and sourcing. The problem here is that a lot of groups (the US government, famous human rights groups, etc.) who would be in other articles considered "authoritative" sources are disagreeing. However, what the article has so far is impressive, and I wish everyone luck on improving this important article.
Sdedeo ( tips) 01:04, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
With the use of the phrase "concentration camp" in the very first sentence, the lack of neutrality within this article becomes apparent. The principles this community was built upon are being eroding and this article is a great example. No one can factually state that DELTA is a concentration camp (much like no one that contributes to this article can factually state that torture has been practiced). This phrase even contradicts the list of internment camps article which states that it is still being debated whether or not GTMO is a "concentration camp". The article can be found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_concentration_and_internment_camps#Current_Camps C'mon people, kids access these pages seeking information. Leave your political ideologies out of what is supposed to be a neutral, fact database. Grow up and research the phrase concentration camp before being irresponsible. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.11.217.165 ( talk) 12:49, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
It has been suggested to move Guantanamo Bay to the correct spelling of Guantánamo Bay and create an own article for U.S. Naval Station Guantanamo Bay. ROGNNTUDJUU! 18:29, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
"That panel included John Roberts. The panel made the ruling one business day before President Bush nominated Roberts to fill the vacant post on the US Supreme Court."
These last two sentences are non-encyclopedic at best; If there is a connection between the nomination and the ruling then it should be stated and those putting forward the suggestion should be quoted, (eg. "It is believed ( Bloggs) that the panel's ruling may have [influence|been influence by] John Robert's nomination for a post in the US Supreme Court.")
If there is no connection between them there is no need to mention either fact here (there is no mention of the other members of the panel, nor what they were doing the next day!)
Either way, I think we need to clearly state the truth here, rather than including two unconnected facts and leading people to connect them based purely on suggestion and insinuation.
I have not made this change as I know this is quite a strongly debated article and didn't want to jump in with both feet! JeffUK 15:20, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
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Sources sub-page —Preceding unsigned comment added by Minerva ( talk • contribs) 22:25, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
How do you feel about merging Camp Delta, Camp X-ray Camp Iguana, and Camp Echo as a subsection to Guantanamo Bay? Wouldn't it be better to have one, well-written, NPOV article, without all the mispellings and typos. Joaquin Murietta 22:23, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
Actually, the opposite megre is in order: remove all camps into a separate article or articles, leaving Guantanamo Bay to purely geographical and historical info, with a brief summary about camps/abuse, according to wikipedia traditions.. There are two articles, Camp Delta and Camp Iguana, (with X-ray and Echo redirecting to Delta) which is reasonable division of topics. mikka (t) 19:10, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
Based on the discussion and lack of objections at Camp X-Ray, I merged Camp X-Ray to this article. Please discuss whether to merge this article with Guantanamo Bay.Also merged to this article Camp Echo. Again, shall we edit this into something better and then merger to Guantanamo Bay? Joaquin Murietta 15:26, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
You are doing a good job. Keep it up. WAS 4.250 20:47, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
Thank you for the comments and your edits. I'll wait a week and see how the edit of Camp Delta evolves, then if there is no objection, I will merge to the other topic. I am still concerned about achieving a NPOV tone. Joaquin Murietta 01:59, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
Merge Camp Delta in to Guantanamo Bay, since Camp Delta is a part of Guantanamo bay.( 210.214.11.181 07:47, 23 February 2006 (UTC)) - yeah right, shall we merge Texas with USA for the same reason? -- Daz 16:41, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
I'm of the opinion that the Guantanamo Bay entry should be geographical and historical focused on the bay and base as a whole with references to the individual camps. The camps themselves should be covered in a separate article or articles since they have a different focus, i.e. their uses primarily as prisons. Reverendlinux 10:26, 23 February 2006 (UTC) reverendlinux
DO NOT MERGE Camp Delta & Guantanamo Bay, rather simply camp delta is a short term poltical reference, Guantanamo Bay is a geographical area that has long history that pre dates Camp Delta by nearly 100 years. Camp Delta is a part of Guantanamo Bay (geographically & historically) they are are only synonymous due to popular media reporting. They should remain seperate as they are 2 distinct entities, they are not the same! -- Daz 16:38, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
There are a lot of articles, news articles, legal papers etc. cited under External references. Do we need all of them? Which ones? Joaquin Murietta 02:41, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
Pleas don't delete SOURCES (i.e. references). Sources are not just a bunch of "further reading". They are the EVIDENCE that the content is accurate and not a bunch of POV blogging. It would be helpful to tie specific claims in the article to specific sources, but this is volunteer labor so you have to give it time until someone volunteers to do that. So the answer is ALL references that are actually references ARE indeed needed. WAS 4.250 08:50, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
Also, this is an encyclopedia and not a newspaper so don't delete based on being "out of date". The prison population history including every arrival and every departure is encyclopedic (we have plenty of room here at wikipedia). Rather than delete the population count of a particular date, more such counts need to be added. WAS 4.250 09:17, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
Should we start a new article, drag all this over to it and put a redirect on Camp Delta's page? Someone commented over on Guantanamo Bay that the prisons deserve their own topic. Joaquin Murietta 15:34, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
Camp Echo is a detention center where pre-commissions are held.
However, the term "Camp X-Ray" has come to be used as a synonym for the entire facility where prisoners from the U.S. invasion of Afghanistan are detained.
The U.S. government justifies this designation by claiming that they do not have the status of either regular soldiers nor that of guerrillas, and they are not part of a regular army or militia. (pov -- JUSTIFIES)
The U.S. government has denied all charges, but on May 9, the Washington Post obtained classified documents that showed Pentagon approval of using sleep deprivation, exposure to hot and cold, bright lights, and loud music during interrogations at Guantanamo
Joaquin, may I be so bold as to make a suggestion to an obviously competant editor? Make a couple of non-data-deleting changes a day. That way, each change can be reviewed by all those watching this page. I fully expect most such chages by you will recieve no comments or reverts at all with each watcher silently approving the change. A big change or a data removal change is very likely to be reverted by somebody for some reason. This is a very touchy subject with emotions running high. Treatment of prisoners and other Iraq and civil rights related issues are among the elections issues in the United States and thus REAL power is at stake over this and related issues. WAS 4.250 07:14, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
I believe the Neutrality of This Article is Disputed. It has a clear, obvious bias aganist the United States and, I dare say, a pro-British bias.
In addition to the concerns cited above, after Geuhene's changes (particularly adding "torture" to every other sentence), it can no longer be disputed that this article is not written from a neutral point of view. Rather than get into a revert war, I have tagged it POV. Allegations of torture (however true I think they may be) are allegations. They are not indisputable facts, and it should not be implied (or outright stated, as it is here) otherwise. Kafziel 18:08, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
They are clear proofs of acts of tortures on the prisoners and on the illegitimacy of this prison. Should this article be tagged as not-neutral?
Where did I threaten anyone? Quote that for me, please. By "bite" (which I linked to an article explaining it) I meant that I'm trying to be nice. Do you really think I'm going to literally bite you?? Clearly, again, this is a language barrier problem.
I do not mean to "disparage" your language skills, and have no problem correcting your mistakes; I've been trying to do that in the article for the past couple of days. What I meant was that my user page is very long and complicated but I wanted to let you know that if you are able to read it you will see that we agree on this subject.
Finally, you claim your argument "has never been 'If we can't have POV, why...'", but your argument was exactly that. You said, "We should just not write this encyclopedia althogether then, because whatever we may write is subject to the writer's interpretation." Then you sent me some link to the meaning of existence. I have to tell you, you're not making a lot of sense here.
I'm really not one to do this, but I'm going to have to have to ask for arbitration to decide this one. I can't spend any more time on this bizarre argument; all I want is to make the article NPOV. Kafziel 14:42, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
This will have to be my last attempt to show you what I'm saying about maintaining a neutral tone. I've spent too much time on this already. Performing a word search for "torture" brings up 19 results in this article. By searching for "torture" in other articles, this is what I found:
As you can see, the article on Camp Delta, just a little prisoner camp in Cuba, has more instances of the word "torture" than the Spanish inquisition, the Tower of London, and the Holocaust put together. Do you think that's an accurate representation?
Hopefully someone from the mediation cabal will be here soon to have a look at the situation, but in the meantime I hope you will consider revising your edits; if articles can be written about Goebbels and Himmler without using the word "torture" even once, then certainly we can do the same here. Kafziel 16:24, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
TDC removed the POV tag because he removed all of your changes. He changed it back to the way I had it, removing all trace of your POV, and therefore it didn't need the tag anymore. Hinotori agrees with him. The fact that you haven't noticed the changes to the article tells me you're just here to argue, and you don't care about the state of the article itself at all. Kafziel 00:32, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
Well, it looks like the two of you are getting along fairly well now. Since I have other articles I'm invested in, I'm going to pull out of this one for now, but if there are any future problems and you two need a third opinion again, feel free to grab me on my talk page anytime. Cheers. :) -- Hinotori (talk)| (ctrb) 01:05, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
Hello -- there was a request for a visit from the medcabal about the "torture" dispute [7] made two days ago. As far as I can tell (the discussion is very long!) this particular dispute has been resolved to everyone's satisfaction. Please inform me if I'm wrong; best thing is to contact me on my talk page.
One remark: the word "torture" is tough. I would recommend when describing the information from a particular source using the language you find there. If you think a source describes torture but doesn't use the word, don't feel free to use it yourself.
I looked over the article myself, and it seems to need further work. For example, paragraphs seems rather strangely strung together, e.g.:
In any case, I think the article needs more work, and in particular, better organization and sourcing. The problem here is that a lot of groups (the US government, famous human rights groups, etc.) who would be in other articles considered "authoritative" sources are disagreeing. However, what the article has so far is impressive, and I wish everyone luck on improving this important article.
Sdedeo ( tips) 01:04, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
With the use of the phrase "concentration camp" in the very first sentence, the lack of neutrality within this article becomes apparent. The principles this community was built upon are being eroding and this article is a great example. No one can factually state that DELTA is a concentration camp (much like no one that contributes to this article can factually state that torture has been practiced). This phrase even contradicts the list of internment camps article which states that it is still being debated whether or not GTMO is a "concentration camp". The article can be found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_concentration_and_internment_camps#Current_Camps C'mon people, kids access these pages seeking information. Leave your political ideologies out of what is supposed to be a neutral, fact database. Grow up and research the phrase concentration camp before being irresponsible. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.11.217.165 ( talk) 12:49, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
It has been suggested to move Guantanamo Bay to the correct spelling of Guantánamo Bay and create an own article for U.S. Naval Station Guantanamo Bay. ROGNNTUDJUU! 18:29, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
"That panel included John Roberts. The panel made the ruling one business day before President Bush nominated Roberts to fill the vacant post on the US Supreme Court."
These last two sentences are non-encyclopedic at best; If there is a connection between the nomination and the ruling then it should be stated and those putting forward the suggestion should be quoted, (eg. "It is believed ( Bloggs) that the panel's ruling may have [influence|been influence by] John Robert's nomination for a post in the US Supreme Court.")
If there is no connection between them there is no need to mention either fact here (there is no mention of the other members of the panel, nor what they were doing the next day!)
Either way, I think we need to clearly state the truth here, rather than including two unconnected facts and leading people to connect them based purely on suggestion and insinuation.
I have not made this change as I know this is quite a strongly debated article and didn't want to jump in with both feet! JeffUK 15:20, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
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