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I do not have the time to follow this up, but it's hit the news that this man may in fact have been innocent. The alleged murders were the result of a fire, supposedly arson. Experts testified at his trial that it was arson, and it (presumably) followed that Willingham was the only one who could have said it. This scientific testimony was the primary basis of his conviction.
However, it now turns out that the theories these experts used have been discredited, and the fire may not have been arson at all.
A very similar case involving one Ernest Willis, also on death row, resulted in the prisoner being exonerated.
Commitees are being set up and fingers are being pointed. I don't have the patience for detail hunting, but certainly this man's wiki writeup deserves a little more--and perhaps a link in the capital punishment entry under "arguments against." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.233.132.57 ( talk • contribs) 00:13, April 21, 2005 (UTC)
Youve ignored most of the evidence. His abuse, lack of emotion after the death of his children, deciding not to call firefighters after the fire started and sitting in the yard watching the house burn.
I've edited the page to show the other info. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Smb2a ( talk • contribs) 01:43, 24 September 2007 (UTC) -- smb2a
I wanted to edit the wiki entry, but realized that I am terrible at it, so I deleted my edits. I wanted to include reports that Stacy Kuykendall's brother, Ronnie Kuykendall, stated in sworn affidavits that Stacy gathered the family together and told them that Willingham confessed to her. Willingham allegedly confessed the reason he set the fire was because he was upset that Stacy was planning to divorce him. I will provide the link, if someone who is more familiar with how to embed links wants to include this information, then please do so. I do think it should be included in this wikipedia entry because it was a sworn affidavit, but that's just my opinion. http://www.star-telegram.com/news/story/1689814.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by Semi138 ( talk • contribs) 15:02, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
Biased BS. The only evidence that exists against Camerod Todd Willingham is testimony. Not a single shred of tangible evidence exists that proves Willingham did the crime for which he was convicted. All the 'evidence' of arson has been disproved by competent experts. Hurst concluded the fire was accidental which completely absolves Willingham of any wrongdoing regardless of unreliable testimony from an angry ex wife and contradictory statements from neighbors. The man is innocent and the page should reflect that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.109.138.40 ( talk) 20:28, 20 August 2011 (UTC)
That last comment is just silly. First, testimony is important evidence. Physical evidence is not necessary for a conviction. Second, Hurst did not conclude that the fire was accidental; he concluded that the original determination that it was intentional was flawed, and that in fact the fire could have been accidental. And the earlier explanations for Willingham's odd behavior in watching the fire, while possible, nonetheless are a bit of a stretch. His behavior is probative, even if not conclusive. Willingham has not remotely been proven innocent. At most, Hurst's conclusions, as well as the recanted testimony, suggest that the reasonable doubt standard should not have been found satisfied. It is quite possible that Hurst was innocent. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.61.66.214 ( talk) 16:26, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
Whoever keeps doing that, childing insults and swears do not belong here and only weaken your position. Smb2a ( talk) 15:59, 19 December 2007 (UTC)smb2a
I've never heard anybody but Kevorkian called "Dr. Death." Is this information really reliable? Shouldn't there be a direct reference to support if so? RivGuySC ( talk) 03:25, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
I will try to locate references. He was reportedly called Dr. Death because he testified at more than 100 sentencing hearings at which inmates were sentenced to death. If he testified at a convict's sentencing hearing, he was almost like the grim reaper as his appearance made it was almost predictable that the convict was going to die. In the movie "The Thin Blue Line," convict Randall Dale Adams complained about the discrepancy between Grigson's superficial examination of himself and the conclusion he gave at Adams' sentencing hearing. The movie's filmmaker originally planned to make a documentary about Grigson. In the book, "Chasing Justice," Kerry Max Cook recounts how the prosecution forced him to see Grigson without his attorney's consent. The prosecution needed Cook to meet with Grigson, however briefly, to provide a basis for Grigson's predictable testimony against Cook. Both Adams and Cook were exonerated. -- Danras ( talk) 03:07, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
I'm not sure why {{accuracy}} was added and not {{unreferenced}} was not. The editor who added it did not make a comment here but it seems clear that a lot of guilt-supporting text which was uncited has already been deleted rather than citations added for them. There's not been a corresponding scrub of innocence-supporting uncited text. If this continues we might have some WP:POV or WP:WEIGHT issues. patsw ( talk) 19:08, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
Link: Trial by Fire. Did Texas Execute an Innocent Man?
Read it for yourself. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jubican ( talk • contribs) 04:52, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)To support WP:NPOV, either:
Rationale. Since the article was scrubbed of uncited facts supporting guilt and a lot of text added to support innocence, the current article is written with a point of view supporting innocence and gives undue weight to those sources supporting same. patsw ( talk) 14:01, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
This conversation runs a real risk of turning ugly pretty quickly, but there's no need for that. The main fact of this case is that The New Yorker thought highly enough that there is doubt about the execution of Willingham to print a long piece about the case. That does not overturn a legal conviction. However, if said conviction ever were overturned, its punishment could not be, and that is a point worth considering. It appears from the New Yorker piece, that more than one person connected with the case either had doubts as the investigation and trial unfolded or has doubts now. Whatever our personal opinions may be, this article should present both sides. There was an investigation, a trial, and some sort of legal appeals and appeals for clemency; the appearance of an article 5 years after his execution that casts doubt on the results of those proceedings does not mean they didn't happen. However - that also doesn't mean the conviction and execution were correct, and that point of view should certainly be in the article as well.
On the matter of providing a list of wrongfully executed people, let's not go there, for a few reasons:
There will likely be an irrefutable case of misapplied justice at some point. Whether this is (or will turn out to be) such a case is not the point of this article; that cannot be settled by a Wikipedia discussion, so it's pointless to try. Our focus is to write a good article, because this is an encyclopedia. It is not a court of public opinion. Frank | talk 14:23, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
My assumption of the inevitability of a mistake being made is not directly related to or presuming that this case is an example. But otherwise, do you presume that as humans we will never make mistakes? There are plenty of documented cases of people convicted and later exonerated [1]...even death-row inmates. If we know that to be the case, the next logical step is that an execution has or will be incorrectly administered. Again - I'm not saying I have an opinion as to this case, but it's hardly fair to say "show me the example" as a means of saying "it has never happened", which is one way of interpreting what I see above. I'm trying to avoid that by saying "it isn't relevant to this article" and "it's a debate that can't be effectively had in this venue so why try?" Frank | talk 18:50, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
I made the observation on the talk page that guilt-supporting facts (true, but uncited) were scrubbed from the article. I didn't do the scrub. My edits so far were to add some dates, citations, and to correct a incomplete quote. I'm taking the above as a consensus to add some guilt-supporting evidence with cites as balance for the article. I want to remind editors, that this is not a place to debate, but to reach a consensus on editing an article which serves one goal: informing the reader about Cameron Willingham in a manner that presents multiple points of view consistent with the Wikipedia policies. patsw ( talk) 23:32, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
From much of what I have read, the three victims are usually described as Willingham's daughters. However, I notice that the oldest girl had a surname of Kuykendall and the younger twins had a surname of Willingham. Kuykendall is the surname of Willingham's then-wife, Stacy, who is also the mother of the three girls. Does anyone know anything more about this discrepancy? Was the oldest a step-daughter, perhaps? Or not even his daughter at all? It seems rather odd that the couple would have three children -- only a year or so apart -- and name the oldest with the wife's surname and the youngest with the husband's surname. Thanks. (Joseph A. Spadaro, 7 September 2009)
As the article does not deal with Todd Willingham but with the arsoin case and with the search of a first legally innocent executed person, shouldn't we move the whole content to a new article and write about Willingham here, pointing to the case article ? --- Dwarfpower ( talk) 11:35, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
this will likely be the first case of an innocent man being exectuted in modern times and therefore the article is likely to get a lot of activity. I read where alot of the claims by the DA are stated in the article as if they are facts. I just made one change where the article said Willingham wanted to burn his daughters to death to cover up child abuse AS IF THERE HAD EVER BEEN ANY CHILD ABUSE. His wife said there had never been any child abuse and that he would have never hurt them and that the kids were spoiled rotten by him. Virtually every claim made by the prosecution was a lie so it is very important that when you quote the DA or their claims that you balance it with other evidence, otherwise it appears wiki is fostering those claims. finally, the based on modern science the arson claim was thoroughly proven to be false and at least 3 experts came to the same conclusion. if there was no arson then there was no crime. keep that in mind. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.233.178.254 ( talk) 15:04, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-tc-nw-texas-execute-0824-082aug25,0,5812073.story —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.233.178.254 ( talk) 15:44, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
Conceding that the 1991 investigation was "undeniably flawed" by 2009 standards does not equate to "Willingham was innocent". That is not a fact, it is an argument made by Gann, the Innocence Project, and others. A formal finding of Willingham's actual innocence would come about from a review of all the trial evidence and testimony and would include determining the actual cause for the fire which killed the girls. patsw ( talk) 19:04, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
http://www.chicagotribune.com/media/photo/2009-08/48850408.jpg —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.233.178.254 ( talk) 19:06, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
this is not rocket science. if there was no arson, how could willingham have killed them? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.233.178.254 ( talk) 19:37, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
The New Yorker article is only half of the story; the Beyler report linked to above that coincided with its release should get more mention in the article. It was an independent study commissioned by the Texas Forensic Science Commission, a state agency formed by the legislature to investigate professional negligence and misconduct in criminal cases, in response to a formal complaint filed by the Innocence Project based on the two previous arson investgations. Pravnik ( talk) 23:45, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
"An independent review that claims the arson investigation that led to the execution of Cameron Todd Willingham was flawed will be presented to a state panel Oct. 2 in Dallas.
The Texas Forensic Science Commission will hold its next quarterly meeting at 9:30 a.m. Oct. 2 at the Omni Mandalay Hotel at Las Colinas. On the agenda is a review and discussion of the report on the investigation into the Willingham case." Read more about it here: http://www.corsicanadailysun.com/thewillinghamfiles/local_story_252171810.html?keyword=topstory I'm trying to see if the public can attend this event, I plan to do so. Yeah and I don't need lecutures about original research. :-) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.233.178.254 ( talk) 14:24, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
That meeting is in fact open to the public. Here is the agenda http://www.fsc.state.tx.us/documents/D_100209MeetingAgenda.pdf I plan on being there! She said they normally finish about 2pm but they think this meeting will likely go until 5pm. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.233.178.254 ( talk) 14:33, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
"In February, a landmark report by the National Research Council (NRC) in February criticized nearly every aspect of the nation's forensics science system, including unreliable techniques for analyzing hair and DNA samples—a problem the U.S. Senate has been addressing in recent hearings. But the NRC report said almost nothing about arson. So ScienceInsider conducted an email interview with John Lentini (left), a nationally known fire investigator who conducted an outside review of the controversial case of Todd Willingham, a convicted arsonist who was executed in 2004. Tomorrow, we will run an interview with Jay Siegel, a scientist who served on the NRC panel."
Forensic Science on Trial: The First of Two ScienceInsider Interviews
This is a brief yet good read.
Is it me or is rick perry an evil man? http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/texassouthwest/stories/DN-perry_19tex.ART.State.Edition2.4bf3d78.html
It's entirely you. Well, you and the rest of the left that has founbd an item to seed the 'net with in preparation for the 2012 election and their excuse making for their current disgrace.
FMChimera (
talk) 14:51, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
So putting an innocent man to death is ok then? -- 130.108.169.41 ( talk) 14:36, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
More from the Dallas Morning News (linked below).
I wonder of the governor's motives in sweeping "three appointees from their jobs just two days before they were set to critically examine a flawed arson investigation that contributed to the execution of a Corsicana man" ibid. I wonder of the governor's agenda for the coming years and how a definitive conclusion that his state, the state of Texas, executed a demonstrably innocent person might affect that agenda and the governor's standing with his constituents.
Will sovereign immunity shield the governor, legislature and courts of Texas from civil and criminal action should the alleged evidence that a demonstrably innocent person was executed by the state of Texas ever be reviewed by an independent authority? Where does bloodlush lay on the scales of justice?
By any reasonable measure, assuming it was not riddled with falsehoods, the New Yorker article recounting the tale of woe of Cameron Todd Willingham seems quite convincing. If a wrong can be righted, it should be.
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/100109dntexperryarson.1cf2d2edb.html Gwopy ( talk) 01:59, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
ACTUALLY what we have here is the left setting up a hit job in advance for a potential Republican Presidential candidate. Willingham was a felon, an abuser and a whackjob. That some "experts" who never had an opportunity to view the sight, evidence or interview the killer have made unsupportable claims is a disgrace. At least when those claims get cited as fact by bigotted hate-mongers such as yourself. Fortunately, and humorously, despite the bias exhibited in the Wiki article thx to people like you the "issue" isn't gaining any traction at all. Most people don't care and of those that do, most don't buy it. Frankly I'd rewrite the entire thing into something that resembled reality but there's too many nuts on Wiki for facts to last long. But HERE, in the discussion, it'll last so that's at least something. As regards how long you have lived there and your opinion of the place; pack your bags and move. I'm certain there are various socialist European Third World nations that would just love to have you. FMChimera ( talk) 14:24, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
Gee, aren't you cute. Save your comments for the location of the discussion in the future and don't clutter up my page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by FMChimera ( talk • contribs) 05:36, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
To FMChimera: Willingham is proven innocent. You will be very, very sorry for bashing a dead person who was already the most miserable man ever lived. Also if you think your so-called "facts" can't stand in wikipedia, then it's clearly not the place for you.
I find myself wondering why no one has posted or made publicly available the key legal documents related to the Willingham case. Specifically, where are the links to the various appeals court decisions in his case? For that matter, why has no one posted at least some of the trial transcript online as well? This has been done before: the widow of Daniel Faulkner has posted the complete transcript of Mumia Abu Jabal on the justicefordanielfaulkner.com page.
I also wonder why the write-up of this article does not include other pertinent facts about Willingham's demeanor the night of the fire. Frankly, if I knew that my children were in a burning house and presumably dead or soon to be dead, I rather doubt that I would be preoccupied by trying to move my car to avoid damage to it. Doing something like that shows both presence of mind and a degree of callousness as well in my book.
Finally, it would seem appropriate to include in the article a section discussing the fact that Willingham's injuries were disproportionate to the ones his kids suffered (i.e. dying). That is frequently a hallmark of someone who stages a murder (for example: Jeffrey MacDonald, the Fatal Vision Killer, escaping an assault that left his pregnant wife and two little children beaten and stabbed to death with minor injuries. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.156.223.248 ( talk) 02:02, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
I read the article. I didn't see any explanation for why moving the car was not very odd behavior. I'm also struck by the fact that the article is not sourced, so the reader has to essentially take the author's word for all the facts presented in it. I'm also struck by the fact the article left out that Willingham's last words were apparently a curse directed at his ex-wife and an attempt to make an obscene gesture at her, since she and at least on of his defense attorneys came to believe he was guilty. I'm also struck by the fact the article did not mention that Willingham told the police that he had poured cologne on the floor because "the babies like the smell."
As for requesting the trial transcript, I'm not trying to make the argument that someone who was convicted, sentenced, and executed for a triple homicide of three children was wrongly executed for his crime. I remember reading a prominent abolitionist who said that anyone who takes up the cause of a condemned man who claims he or she is innocent has a duty to read the trial transcript, talk to the prosecutor, or speak with the investigators on the case instead of relying on newspaper articles and advocacy groups to form his or her opinions. You can read the piece, by Andrew Hammel, at this link.
http://www.fdp.dk/uk/strategy.php —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.81.129.193 ( talk) 17:13, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
You need not "take up" the willingham "cause" to recognize the evidence used to convict him was not only unscientific but absurd. willingham was likely not the kind of guy you would want living next door, but the scientific evidence indicates arson did not cause the fire. if there was no arson then there was no murder. it's pretty simple stuff. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.187.190.208 ( talk) 02:00, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
Ahhh, so one needs to have decided in advance that this murderer was not the convicted murderer he was to believe these new and unsubstantiated opinion pieces. Leftist "logic" at its finest... FMChimera ( talk) 14:26, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
I really don't get the idea that those who are of the opinion are part of a "leftist plot" against Perry. Looking at some of the arguments made such as Willingham's behaviour: There have been plenty of cases where people were suspected because their behaviour was not what one might expect. Some of these cases have ended in another person being charged and convicted of the murder. Then there is the case of the jailhouse informant who keeps flip-flopping. Add to that, would the jury have convicted had they heard the new evidence?
But looking at other cases, there have been over 500 Exonerations obtained by the Innocence Project including 21 on death row. Much of this has been due to DNA testing that was not done or could not be done at the time. It is interesting to note that in many of these cases, the state refused to allow testing and did it's best to withhold such evidence in appellate court. I am sure that there are many who will have concluded that if a suspect refuses to provide his DNA voluntarily, he is probably guilty. Does anyone consider that if the state withholds DNA evidence, it may be because the state might be worried that he may be innocent? Why would the state, if it is so certain of a suspects guilt, refuse to allow testing that would validate it's verdict? BTW, it's worth mentioning in about a quarter of those exonerations, convictions were based on confessions that were often obtained by dubious methods. But I don't suppose those on the right are as concerned with that as the leftists.
But I digress. The idea that those who campaign for exonerations are "leftists" may have some merit. But what does that say about those on the right, who dislike the work that the Innocence Project does? What it doesn't say, is that those on the right value justice as much as those on the left. But just in case this might really be a leftist plot against Perry, that does not mean the posthumous evidence is itself invalid 2A02:8084:26E0:AA00:5D96:6D8F:774C:2E02 ( talk) 12:51, 24 January 2021 (UTC)
The City of Corsicana released a 21 page document that amounts to a rebuttal of the Beyler report. I have added a section summarizing its main points and provided a link to it as well. It's going to be very interesting to me to see if it gets "wished" away by some of the people here who are pretty much Willingham advocates. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.88.199.217 ( talk) 23:47, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
perry refuses to release the letter sent from attorney who initially pointed out the bad arson evidence to hault the willingham execution: http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/APStories/stories/D9B92QUO0.html
perry tried to pressure the forensics committee: http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-arson-williinghamoct12,0,7089579.story
perry sure seems intent on covering up his role in the execution of willingamn. he ridiculed the "so-called expert" in public which is funny because beyler is a nationally recognized arson expert and not some hick from corsicana. beyler is THE leading arson expert in the country and his credentials are over the top impressive. perry's aids complained about the cost of having beyler review the arson evidence. obviously perry wants this to blow over until after the election. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.233.178.254 ( talk) 20:24, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
this CNN video found here puts it into perspective: http://www.burntorangereport.com/diary/9415/cnns-anderson-cooper-texas-governor-rick-perry-covering-up-innocent-mans-execution —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.233.178.254 ( talk) 22:05, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
There's very little about the man's actual life here. The article should cover his upbringing, his prior convictions, and so forth as well. - LtNOWIS ( talk) 04:14, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
Willingham was arrested for beating his wife over the stomach with a telephone in an attempt to cause a miscarriage while she was pregnant with two of the dead children in this case. It shows what could be a pattern of behavior and should be added to the section detailing his prior abuse of his wife. http://www.clarkprosecutor.org/html/death/US/willingham899.htm - smb2a ( talk) 14:36, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
yes this is what the clark prosecutor claims and wants you to believe. keep in mind willingham's wife denied this and i think her testimony is a little more reliable. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.233.178.254 ( talk) 21:00, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
This man himself is not actually notable and there is scant information about him unrelated to the trial and consequences.
However his trial, execution and ensuing public debate clearly ARE notable. Perhaps a move to a new article named Cameron Willingham execution controversy (or similar) would be more appropriate? That would also remove the requirement to try and present this article as a "biography" article when it really isn't. Manning ( talk) 01:42, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
Are there two John Jacksons? Thanks, Rich Peterson 69.181.160.248 ( talk) 09:33, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
There is only one John Jackson who served as the lead prosecutor in the case but is now a judge for the 13th Judicial District of Texas.-- TL36 ( talk) 16:36, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
Prior text:
“ | On July 23, 2010, the Texas Forensic Science Commission announced their tentative findings saying that the conviction was based on "flawed science" and that there is no indication that the arson authorities were negligent or committed willful misconduct. | ” |
Current text:
“ | A four-person panel of the Texas Forensic Science Commission investigating evidence of arson presented in the case acknowledged on July 23, 2010, that state and local arson investigators used "flawed science" in determining the blaze had been deliberately set. It also found insufficient evidence to prove that state Deputy Fire Marshal Manuel Vasquez and Corsicana Assistant Fire Chief Douglas Fogg were negligent or guilty of misconduct in their arson work. | ” |
I have read the entire article on Todd Wittingham and I do not see any expert giving an explanation for the fire, except arson. Accidental fires are caused by things like lightning, lit cigarettes, electrical shorts in wiring, appliances over-heating, kids playing with matches, creosote in a chimney, motors burning up in furnaces or other devices, food left cooking on a stove, etc. I think the article is incomplete if there is no statement by a forensic expert on an accidental cause for the fire that killed the 3 girls. Did they or didn't they find an accidental cause? 75.218.73.7 ( talk) 19:36, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
TV news reports from the beginning of the case suggested prosecutors believed the children were murdered for life insurance money, despite the fact that no such insurance policies existed.
However, I see no mention of that in this article.-- Skintigh ( talk) 16:24, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
I've removed this section, is there any objection to that? - Aaron Brenneman ( talk) 01:30, 18 August 2011 (UTC)
While there's an understandable amount of space given to the theories of Hurst and Beyler, being as the main notability of this case is that there was some dispute, very little space is given to the rebuttals from Corsicana- they are mentioned in passing only, despite addressing the main issues that Beyler brought up.
http://corsicanadailysun.com/thewillinghamfiles/x46870673/-09-06-09-No-doubts
supports the verdict, and gives some context to Willingham's purported bad character beyond the words of Dr. Grigson, a man the article goes out of its way to present negatively. There seems little balance in the article between the defence and prosecution cases, whereas in the court transcripts and statements people mention Willingham's evasiveness and the issues they had with his story , along with potential motivation. The accelerant findings are strange in light of Willingham's admission to have poured ethanol-based cologne over the floor of the burnt house, which I think at least is a fairly important detail where fire investigation is concerned.
A PDF here, on the fire evidence: http://static.cnhi.zope.net/corsicanadailysun/images/City_of_Corsicana_response.pdf
His defence lawyer gives the reasons why he believes in Willingham's guilt, as found on Huffpo, via AP.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/12/02/cameron-todd-willingham-j_n_376580.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.104.46.239 ( talk) 17:57, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
I deleted this:
A 2011 documentary film, Incendiary: The Willingham Case, mixed stylized explorations of fire science with cinema verité coverage of efforts to review Willingham’s case – by the Texas Forensic Science Commission and within the Texas court system.[5] The film brought renewed attention to Willingham's case in theatrical release. [6]
1) Because I just HATE the whole prose. HATE it. "mixed stylized explorations" and "cinema verite". Please. This is an encyclopedia, not a gossip column or a swishy academic textbook on film-making. I just HATE it. HATE it. 2) The article is about an execution, a murderer and a murder. Not a film about an execution, a murderer and a murder. The existence of that little factoid about the film should be buried deep at the bottom of the article until the collective realizes is a meaningless bullet on a list of other irrelevant things, all of which could be thrown out and not harm the article one bit. Nor would they be missed. 3) Did I mention how badly I absolutely HATE that sentence? "cinema verite", PLEASE. Wiki should have a list of two-word combinations that should NEVER appear in any wiki article, ever, and those two words should be at the top of that list, and in BOLD. Jonny Quick ( talk) 08:29, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
I'm troubled by both the presentation and the content of the "Documentary Film" section. I have no issue with mentioning it, in fact I wish there was a section exploring the various mediums that have focused attention on Willingham's case. However this section does not IMO strike the right tone for this type of article. It reads as an advertisement to be honest. Does anyone have an opinion on how it reads, and how it could be rewritten or re incorporated into the article without requiring it's own section? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1008:B000:8D2E:D0F8:B4DD:62D6:B676 ( talk) 03:57, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
I'm going to wait for feedback on this until the 20th, upon which if none is received I will delete the section and integrate a short digest elsewhere. Neal — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1008:B014:9875:424:3DFD:7C59:A68C ( talk) 22:31, 13 March 2014 (UTC)
Per my comment a year ago and the previous comment, I am again paring down this section. Feel free to integrate it elsewhere if there is consensus but as it stands it's too flamboyant and self promoting in tone for this article.
PottedGold ( talk) 23:31, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
Here is a very in-depth article: The Prosecutor and the Snitch: Did Texas execute an innocent man? published on August 4, 2014. It calls into question the validity of Willigham's conviction, and it details the possibility that an innocent man was indeed executed in this case. This account was reported and written by Maurice Possley for The Marshall Project, and published in conjunction with The Washington Post. Perhaps it contains useful information to include in Cameron Todd Willingham's Wikipedia article. Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro ( talk) 00:08, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
Hi! I just had a question. At the end of the first paragraph under Gerald Hurst, there is this sentence: The glass was dispelled by a 50-home investigation in San Francisco. Maybe it's me, but... what the heck does that mean? Thanks. Ronaldomundo ( talk) 22:49, 11 August 2015 (UTC)
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Given that a lot of the evidence used to convict him is now considered to be dubious should we replace it with 'American convicted for murder' or something similar? Infospazm ( talk) 17:24, 14 September 2019 (UTC)
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I do not have the time to follow this up, but it's hit the news that this man may in fact have been innocent. The alleged murders were the result of a fire, supposedly arson. Experts testified at his trial that it was arson, and it (presumably) followed that Willingham was the only one who could have said it. This scientific testimony was the primary basis of his conviction.
However, it now turns out that the theories these experts used have been discredited, and the fire may not have been arson at all.
A very similar case involving one Ernest Willis, also on death row, resulted in the prisoner being exonerated.
Commitees are being set up and fingers are being pointed. I don't have the patience for detail hunting, but certainly this man's wiki writeup deserves a little more--and perhaps a link in the capital punishment entry under "arguments against." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.233.132.57 ( talk • contribs) 00:13, April 21, 2005 (UTC)
Youve ignored most of the evidence. His abuse, lack of emotion after the death of his children, deciding not to call firefighters after the fire started and sitting in the yard watching the house burn.
I've edited the page to show the other info. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Smb2a ( talk • contribs) 01:43, 24 September 2007 (UTC) -- smb2a
I wanted to edit the wiki entry, but realized that I am terrible at it, so I deleted my edits. I wanted to include reports that Stacy Kuykendall's brother, Ronnie Kuykendall, stated in sworn affidavits that Stacy gathered the family together and told them that Willingham confessed to her. Willingham allegedly confessed the reason he set the fire was because he was upset that Stacy was planning to divorce him. I will provide the link, if someone who is more familiar with how to embed links wants to include this information, then please do so. I do think it should be included in this wikipedia entry because it was a sworn affidavit, but that's just my opinion. http://www.star-telegram.com/news/story/1689814.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by Semi138 ( talk • contribs) 15:02, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
Biased BS. The only evidence that exists against Camerod Todd Willingham is testimony. Not a single shred of tangible evidence exists that proves Willingham did the crime for which he was convicted. All the 'evidence' of arson has been disproved by competent experts. Hurst concluded the fire was accidental which completely absolves Willingham of any wrongdoing regardless of unreliable testimony from an angry ex wife and contradictory statements from neighbors. The man is innocent and the page should reflect that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.109.138.40 ( talk) 20:28, 20 August 2011 (UTC)
That last comment is just silly. First, testimony is important evidence. Physical evidence is not necessary for a conviction. Second, Hurst did not conclude that the fire was accidental; he concluded that the original determination that it was intentional was flawed, and that in fact the fire could have been accidental. And the earlier explanations for Willingham's odd behavior in watching the fire, while possible, nonetheless are a bit of a stretch. His behavior is probative, even if not conclusive. Willingham has not remotely been proven innocent. At most, Hurst's conclusions, as well as the recanted testimony, suggest that the reasonable doubt standard should not have been found satisfied. It is quite possible that Hurst was innocent. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.61.66.214 ( talk) 16:26, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
Whoever keeps doing that, childing insults and swears do not belong here and only weaken your position. Smb2a ( talk) 15:59, 19 December 2007 (UTC)smb2a
I've never heard anybody but Kevorkian called "Dr. Death." Is this information really reliable? Shouldn't there be a direct reference to support if so? RivGuySC ( talk) 03:25, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
I will try to locate references. He was reportedly called Dr. Death because he testified at more than 100 sentencing hearings at which inmates were sentenced to death. If he testified at a convict's sentencing hearing, he was almost like the grim reaper as his appearance made it was almost predictable that the convict was going to die. In the movie "The Thin Blue Line," convict Randall Dale Adams complained about the discrepancy between Grigson's superficial examination of himself and the conclusion he gave at Adams' sentencing hearing. The movie's filmmaker originally planned to make a documentary about Grigson. In the book, "Chasing Justice," Kerry Max Cook recounts how the prosecution forced him to see Grigson without his attorney's consent. The prosecution needed Cook to meet with Grigson, however briefly, to provide a basis for Grigson's predictable testimony against Cook. Both Adams and Cook were exonerated. -- Danras ( talk) 03:07, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
I'm not sure why {{accuracy}} was added and not {{unreferenced}} was not. The editor who added it did not make a comment here but it seems clear that a lot of guilt-supporting text which was uncited has already been deleted rather than citations added for them. There's not been a corresponding scrub of innocence-supporting uncited text. If this continues we might have some WP:POV or WP:WEIGHT issues. patsw ( talk) 19:08, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
Link: Trial by Fire. Did Texas Execute an Innocent Man?
Read it for yourself. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jubican ( talk • contribs) 04:52, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)To support WP:NPOV, either:
Rationale. Since the article was scrubbed of uncited facts supporting guilt and a lot of text added to support innocence, the current article is written with a point of view supporting innocence and gives undue weight to those sources supporting same. patsw ( talk) 14:01, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
This conversation runs a real risk of turning ugly pretty quickly, but there's no need for that. The main fact of this case is that The New Yorker thought highly enough that there is doubt about the execution of Willingham to print a long piece about the case. That does not overturn a legal conviction. However, if said conviction ever were overturned, its punishment could not be, and that is a point worth considering. It appears from the New Yorker piece, that more than one person connected with the case either had doubts as the investigation and trial unfolded or has doubts now. Whatever our personal opinions may be, this article should present both sides. There was an investigation, a trial, and some sort of legal appeals and appeals for clemency; the appearance of an article 5 years after his execution that casts doubt on the results of those proceedings does not mean they didn't happen. However - that also doesn't mean the conviction and execution were correct, and that point of view should certainly be in the article as well.
On the matter of providing a list of wrongfully executed people, let's not go there, for a few reasons:
There will likely be an irrefutable case of misapplied justice at some point. Whether this is (or will turn out to be) such a case is not the point of this article; that cannot be settled by a Wikipedia discussion, so it's pointless to try. Our focus is to write a good article, because this is an encyclopedia. It is not a court of public opinion. Frank | talk 14:23, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
My assumption of the inevitability of a mistake being made is not directly related to or presuming that this case is an example. But otherwise, do you presume that as humans we will never make mistakes? There are plenty of documented cases of people convicted and later exonerated [1]...even death-row inmates. If we know that to be the case, the next logical step is that an execution has or will be incorrectly administered. Again - I'm not saying I have an opinion as to this case, but it's hardly fair to say "show me the example" as a means of saying "it has never happened", which is one way of interpreting what I see above. I'm trying to avoid that by saying "it isn't relevant to this article" and "it's a debate that can't be effectively had in this venue so why try?" Frank | talk 18:50, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
I made the observation on the talk page that guilt-supporting facts (true, but uncited) were scrubbed from the article. I didn't do the scrub. My edits so far were to add some dates, citations, and to correct a incomplete quote. I'm taking the above as a consensus to add some guilt-supporting evidence with cites as balance for the article. I want to remind editors, that this is not a place to debate, but to reach a consensus on editing an article which serves one goal: informing the reader about Cameron Willingham in a manner that presents multiple points of view consistent with the Wikipedia policies. patsw ( talk) 23:32, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
From much of what I have read, the three victims are usually described as Willingham's daughters. However, I notice that the oldest girl had a surname of Kuykendall and the younger twins had a surname of Willingham. Kuykendall is the surname of Willingham's then-wife, Stacy, who is also the mother of the three girls. Does anyone know anything more about this discrepancy? Was the oldest a step-daughter, perhaps? Or not even his daughter at all? It seems rather odd that the couple would have three children -- only a year or so apart -- and name the oldest with the wife's surname and the youngest with the husband's surname. Thanks. (Joseph A. Spadaro, 7 September 2009)
As the article does not deal with Todd Willingham but with the arsoin case and with the search of a first legally innocent executed person, shouldn't we move the whole content to a new article and write about Willingham here, pointing to the case article ? --- Dwarfpower ( talk) 11:35, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
this will likely be the first case of an innocent man being exectuted in modern times and therefore the article is likely to get a lot of activity. I read where alot of the claims by the DA are stated in the article as if they are facts. I just made one change where the article said Willingham wanted to burn his daughters to death to cover up child abuse AS IF THERE HAD EVER BEEN ANY CHILD ABUSE. His wife said there had never been any child abuse and that he would have never hurt them and that the kids were spoiled rotten by him. Virtually every claim made by the prosecution was a lie so it is very important that when you quote the DA or their claims that you balance it with other evidence, otherwise it appears wiki is fostering those claims. finally, the based on modern science the arson claim was thoroughly proven to be false and at least 3 experts came to the same conclusion. if there was no arson then there was no crime. keep that in mind. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.233.178.254 ( talk) 15:04, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-tc-nw-texas-execute-0824-082aug25,0,5812073.story —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.233.178.254 ( talk) 15:44, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
Conceding that the 1991 investigation was "undeniably flawed" by 2009 standards does not equate to "Willingham was innocent". That is not a fact, it is an argument made by Gann, the Innocence Project, and others. A formal finding of Willingham's actual innocence would come about from a review of all the trial evidence and testimony and would include determining the actual cause for the fire which killed the girls. patsw ( talk) 19:04, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
http://www.chicagotribune.com/media/photo/2009-08/48850408.jpg —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.233.178.254 ( talk) 19:06, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
this is not rocket science. if there was no arson, how could willingham have killed them? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.233.178.254 ( talk) 19:37, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
The New Yorker article is only half of the story; the Beyler report linked to above that coincided with its release should get more mention in the article. It was an independent study commissioned by the Texas Forensic Science Commission, a state agency formed by the legislature to investigate professional negligence and misconduct in criminal cases, in response to a formal complaint filed by the Innocence Project based on the two previous arson investgations. Pravnik ( talk) 23:45, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
"An independent review that claims the arson investigation that led to the execution of Cameron Todd Willingham was flawed will be presented to a state panel Oct. 2 in Dallas.
The Texas Forensic Science Commission will hold its next quarterly meeting at 9:30 a.m. Oct. 2 at the Omni Mandalay Hotel at Las Colinas. On the agenda is a review and discussion of the report on the investigation into the Willingham case." Read more about it here: http://www.corsicanadailysun.com/thewillinghamfiles/local_story_252171810.html?keyword=topstory I'm trying to see if the public can attend this event, I plan to do so. Yeah and I don't need lecutures about original research. :-) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.233.178.254 ( talk) 14:24, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
That meeting is in fact open to the public. Here is the agenda http://www.fsc.state.tx.us/documents/D_100209MeetingAgenda.pdf I plan on being there! She said they normally finish about 2pm but they think this meeting will likely go until 5pm. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.233.178.254 ( talk) 14:33, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
"In February, a landmark report by the National Research Council (NRC) in February criticized nearly every aspect of the nation's forensics science system, including unreliable techniques for analyzing hair and DNA samples—a problem the U.S. Senate has been addressing in recent hearings. But the NRC report said almost nothing about arson. So ScienceInsider conducted an email interview with John Lentini (left), a nationally known fire investigator who conducted an outside review of the controversial case of Todd Willingham, a convicted arsonist who was executed in 2004. Tomorrow, we will run an interview with Jay Siegel, a scientist who served on the NRC panel."
Forensic Science on Trial: The First of Two ScienceInsider Interviews
This is a brief yet good read.
Is it me or is rick perry an evil man? http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/texassouthwest/stories/DN-perry_19tex.ART.State.Edition2.4bf3d78.html
It's entirely you. Well, you and the rest of the left that has founbd an item to seed the 'net with in preparation for the 2012 election and their excuse making for their current disgrace.
FMChimera (
talk) 14:51, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
So putting an innocent man to death is ok then? -- 130.108.169.41 ( talk) 14:36, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
More from the Dallas Morning News (linked below).
I wonder of the governor's motives in sweeping "three appointees from their jobs just two days before they were set to critically examine a flawed arson investigation that contributed to the execution of a Corsicana man" ibid. I wonder of the governor's agenda for the coming years and how a definitive conclusion that his state, the state of Texas, executed a demonstrably innocent person might affect that agenda and the governor's standing with his constituents.
Will sovereign immunity shield the governor, legislature and courts of Texas from civil and criminal action should the alleged evidence that a demonstrably innocent person was executed by the state of Texas ever be reviewed by an independent authority? Where does bloodlush lay on the scales of justice?
By any reasonable measure, assuming it was not riddled with falsehoods, the New Yorker article recounting the tale of woe of Cameron Todd Willingham seems quite convincing. If a wrong can be righted, it should be.
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/100109dntexperryarson.1cf2d2edb.html Gwopy ( talk) 01:59, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
ACTUALLY what we have here is the left setting up a hit job in advance for a potential Republican Presidential candidate. Willingham was a felon, an abuser and a whackjob. That some "experts" who never had an opportunity to view the sight, evidence or interview the killer have made unsupportable claims is a disgrace. At least when those claims get cited as fact by bigotted hate-mongers such as yourself. Fortunately, and humorously, despite the bias exhibited in the Wiki article thx to people like you the "issue" isn't gaining any traction at all. Most people don't care and of those that do, most don't buy it. Frankly I'd rewrite the entire thing into something that resembled reality but there's too many nuts on Wiki for facts to last long. But HERE, in the discussion, it'll last so that's at least something. As regards how long you have lived there and your opinion of the place; pack your bags and move. I'm certain there are various socialist European Third World nations that would just love to have you. FMChimera ( talk) 14:24, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
Gee, aren't you cute. Save your comments for the location of the discussion in the future and don't clutter up my page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by FMChimera ( talk • contribs) 05:36, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
To FMChimera: Willingham is proven innocent. You will be very, very sorry for bashing a dead person who was already the most miserable man ever lived. Also if you think your so-called "facts" can't stand in wikipedia, then it's clearly not the place for you.
I find myself wondering why no one has posted or made publicly available the key legal documents related to the Willingham case. Specifically, where are the links to the various appeals court decisions in his case? For that matter, why has no one posted at least some of the trial transcript online as well? This has been done before: the widow of Daniel Faulkner has posted the complete transcript of Mumia Abu Jabal on the justicefordanielfaulkner.com page.
I also wonder why the write-up of this article does not include other pertinent facts about Willingham's demeanor the night of the fire. Frankly, if I knew that my children were in a burning house and presumably dead or soon to be dead, I rather doubt that I would be preoccupied by trying to move my car to avoid damage to it. Doing something like that shows both presence of mind and a degree of callousness as well in my book.
Finally, it would seem appropriate to include in the article a section discussing the fact that Willingham's injuries were disproportionate to the ones his kids suffered (i.e. dying). That is frequently a hallmark of someone who stages a murder (for example: Jeffrey MacDonald, the Fatal Vision Killer, escaping an assault that left his pregnant wife and two little children beaten and stabbed to death with minor injuries. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.156.223.248 ( talk) 02:02, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
I read the article. I didn't see any explanation for why moving the car was not very odd behavior. I'm also struck by the fact that the article is not sourced, so the reader has to essentially take the author's word for all the facts presented in it. I'm also struck by the fact the article left out that Willingham's last words were apparently a curse directed at his ex-wife and an attempt to make an obscene gesture at her, since she and at least on of his defense attorneys came to believe he was guilty. I'm also struck by the fact the article did not mention that Willingham told the police that he had poured cologne on the floor because "the babies like the smell."
As for requesting the trial transcript, I'm not trying to make the argument that someone who was convicted, sentenced, and executed for a triple homicide of three children was wrongly executed for his crime. I remember reading a prominent abolitionist who said that anyone who takes up the cause of a condemned man who claims he or she is innocent has a duty to read the trial transcript, talk to the prosecutor, or speak with the investigators on the case instead of relying on newspaper articles and advocacy groups to form his or her opinions. You can read the piece, by Andrew Hammel, at this link.
http://www.fdp.dk/uk/strategy.php —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.81.129.193 ( talk) 17:13, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
You need not "take up" the willingham "cause" to recognize the evidence used to convict him was not only unscientific but absurd. willingham was likely not the kind of guy you would want living next door, but the scientific evidence indicates arson did not cause the fire. if there was no arson then there was no murder. it's pretty simple stuff. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.187.190.208 ( talk) 02:00, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
Ahhh, so one needs to have decided in advance that this murderer was not the convicted murderer he was to believe these new and unsubstantiated opinion pieces. Leftist "logic" at its finest... FMChimera ( talk) 14:26, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
I really don't get the idea that those who are of the opinion are part of a "leftist plot" against Perry. Looking at some of the arguments made such as Willingham's behaviour: There have been plenty of cases where people were suspected because their behaviour was not what one might expect. Some of these cases have ended in another person being charged and convicted of the murder. Then there is the case of the jailhouse informant who keeps flip-flopping. Add to that, would the jury have convicted had they heard the new evidence?
But looking at other cases, there have been over 500 Exonerations obtained by the Innocence Project including 21 on death row. Much of this has been due to DNA testing that was not done or could not be done at the time. It is interesting to note that in many of these cases, the state refused to allow testing and did it's best to withhold such evidence in appellate court. I am sure that there are many who will have concluded that if a suspect refuses to provide his DNA voluntarily, he is probably guilty. Does anyone consider that if the state withholds DNA evidence, it may be because the state might be worried that he may be innocent? Why would the state, if it is so certain of a suspects guilt, refuse to allow testing that would validate it's verdict? BTW, it's worth mentioning in about a quarter of those exonerations, convictions were based on confessions that were often obtained by dubious methods. But I don't suppose those on the right are as concerned with that as the leftists.
But I digress. The idea that those who campaign for exonerations are "leftists" may have some merit. But what does that say about those on the right, who dislike the work that the Innocence Project does? What it doesn't say, is that those on the right value justice as much as those on the left. But just in case this might really be a leftist plot against Perry, that does not mean the posthumous evidence is itself invalid 2A02:8084:26E0:AA00:5D96:6D8F:774C:2E02 ( talk) 12:51, 24 January 2021 (UTC)
The City of Corsicana released a 21 page document that amounts to a rebuttal of the Beyler report. I have added a section summarizing its main points and provided a link to it as well. It's going to be very interesting to me to see if it gets "wished" away by some of the people here who are pretty much Willingham advocates. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.88.199.217 ( talk) 23:47, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
perry refuses to release the letter sent from attorney who initially pointed out the bad arson evidence to hault the willingham execution: http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/APStories/stories/D9B92QUO0.html
perry tried to pressure the forensics committee: http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-arson-williinghamoct12,0,7089579.story
perry sure seems intent on covering up his role in the execution of willingamn. he ridiculed the "so-called expert" in public which is funny because beyler is a nationally recognized arson expert and not some hick from corsicana. beyler is THE leading arson expert in the country and his credentials are over the top impressive. perry's aids complained about the cost of having beyler review the arson evidence. obviously perry wants this to blow over until after the election. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.233.178.254 ( talk) 20:24, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
this CNN video found here puts it into perspective: http://www.burntorangereport.com/diary/9415/cnns-anderson-cooper-texas-governor-rick-perry-covering-up-innocent-mans-execution —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.233.178.254 ( talk) 22:05, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
There's very little about the man's actual life here. The article should cover his upbringing, his prior convictions, and so forth as well. - LtNOWIS ( talk) 04:14, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
Willingham was arrested for beating his wife over the stomach with a telephone in an attempt to cause a miscarriage while she was pregnant with two of the dead children in this case. It shows what could be a pattern of behavior and should be added to the section detailing his prior abuse of his wife. http://www.clarkprosecutor.org/html/death/US/willingham899.htm - smb2a ( talk) 14:36, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
yes this is what the clark prosecutor claims and wants you to believe. keep in mind willingham's wife denied this and i think her testimony is a little more reliable. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.233.178.254 ( talk) 21:00, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
This man himself is not actually notable and there is scant information about him unrelated to the trial and consequences.
However his trial, execution and ensuing public debate clearly ARE notable. Perhaps a move to a new article named Cameron Willingham execution controversy (or similar) would be more appropriate? That would also remove the requirement to try and present this article as a "biography" article when it really isn't. Manning ( talk) 01:42, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
Are there two John Jacksons? Thanks, Rich Peterson 69.181.160.248 ( talk) 09:33, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
There is only one John Jackson who served as the lead prosecutor in the case but is now a judge for the 13th Judicial District of Texas.-- TL36 ( talk) 16:36, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
Prior text:
“ | On July 23, 2010, the Texas Forensic Science Commission announced their tentative findings saying that the conviction was based on "flawed science" and that there is no indication that the arson authorities were negligent or committed willful misconduct. | ” |
Current text:
“ | A four-person panel of the Texas Forensic Science Commission investigating evidence of arson presented in the case acknowledged on July 23, 2010, that state and local arson investigators used "flawed science" in determining the blaze had been deliberately set. It also found insufficient evidence to prove that state Deputy Fire Marshal Manuel Vasquez and Corsicana Assistant Fire Chief Douglas Fogg were negligent or guilty of misconduct in their arson work. | ” |
I have read the entire article on Todd Wittingham and I do not see any expert giving an explanation for the fire, except arson. Accidental fires are caused by things like lightning, lit cigarettes, electrical shorts in wiring, appliances over-heating, kids playing with matches, creosote in a chimney, motors burning up in furnaces or other devices, food left cooking on a stove, etc. I think the article is incomplete if there is no statement by a forensic expert on an accidental cause for the fire that killed the 3 girls. Did they or didn't they find an accidental cause? 75.218.73.7 ( talk) 19:36, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
TV news reports from the beginning of the case suggested prosecutors believed the children were murdered for life insurance money, despite the fact that no such insurance policies existed.
However, I see no mention of that in this article.-- Skintigh ( talk) 16:24, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
I've removed this section, is there any objection to that? - Aaron Brenneman ( talk) 01:30, 18 August 2011 (UTC)
While there's an understandable amount of space given to the theories of Hurst and Beyler, being as the main notability of this case is that there was some dispute, very little space is given to the rebuttals from Corsicana- they are mentioned in passing only, despite addressing the main issues that Beyler brought up.
http://corsicanadailysun.com/thewillinghamfiles/x46870673/-09-06-09-No-doubts
supports the verdict, and gives some context to Willingham's purported bad character beyond the words of Dr. Grigson, a man the article goes out of its way to present negatively. There seems little balance in the article between the defence and prosecution cases, whereas in the court transcripts and statements people mention Willingham's evasiveness and the issues they had with his story , along with potential motivation. The accelerant findings are strange in light of Willingham's admission to have poured ethanol-based cologne over the floor of the burnt house, which I think at least is a fairly important detail where fire investigation is concerned.
A PDF here, on the fire evidence: http://static.cnhi.zope.net/corsicanadailysun/images/City_of_Corsicana_response.pdf
His defence lawyer gives the reasons why he believes in Willingham's guilt, as found on Huffpo, via AP.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/12/02/cameron-todd-willingham-j_n_376580.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.104.46.239 ( talk) 17:57, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
I deleted this:
A 2011 documentary film, Incendiary: The Willingham Case, mixed stylized explorations of fire science with cinema verité coverage of efforts to review Willingham’s case – by the Texas Forensic Science Commission and within the Texas court system.[5] The film brought renewed attention to Willingham's case in theatrical release. [6]
1) Because I just HATE the whole prose. HATE it. "mixed stylized explorations" and "cinema verite". Please. This is an encyclopedia, not a gossip column or a swishy academic textbook on film-making. I just HATE it. HATE it. 2) The article is about an execution, a murderer and a murder. Not a film about an execution, a murderer and a murder. The existence of that little factoid about the film should be buried deep at the bottom of the article until the collective realizes is a meaningless bullet on a list of other irrelevant things, all of which could be thrown out and not harm the article one bit. Nor would they be missed. 3) Did I mention how badly I absolutely HATE that sentence? "cinema verite", PLEASE. Wiki should have a list of two-word combinations that should NEVER appear in any wiki article, ever, and those two words should be at the top of that list, and in BOLD. Jonny Quick ( talk) 08:29, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
I'm troubled by both the presentation and the content of the "Documentary Film" section. I have no issue with mentioning it, in fact I wish there was a section exploring the various mediums that have focused attention on Willingham's case. However this section does not IMO strike the right tone for this type of article. It reads as an advertisement to be honest. Does anyone have an opinion on how it reads, and how it could be rewritten or re incorporated into the article without requiring it's own section? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1008:B000:8D2E:D0F8:B4DD:62D6:B676 ( talk) 03:57, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
I'm going to wait for feedback on this until the 20th, upon which if none is received I will delete the section and integrate a short digest elsewhere. Neal — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1008:B014:9875:424:3DFD:7C59:A68C ( talk) 22:31, 13 March 2014 (UTC)
Per my comment a year ago and the previous comment, I am again paring down this section. Feel free to integrate it elsewhere if there is consensus but as it stands it's too flamboyant and self promoting in tone for this article.
PottedGold ( talk) 23:31, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
Here is a very in-depth article: The Prosecutor and the Snitch: Did Texas execute an innocent man? published on August 4, 2014. It calls into question the validity of Willigham's conviction, and it details the possibility that an innocent man was indeed executed in this case. This account was reported and written by Maurice Possley for The Marshall Project, and published in conjunction with The Washington Post. Perhaps it contains useful information to include in Cameron Todd Willingham's Wikipedia article. Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro ( talk) 00:08, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
Hi! I just had a question. At the end of the first paragraph under Gerald Hurst, there is this sentence: The glass was dispelled by a 50-home investigation in San Francisco. Maybe it's me, but... what the heck does that mean? Thanks. Ronaldomundo ( talk) 22:49, 11 August 2015 (UTC)
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Given that a lot of the evidence used to convict him is now considered to be dubious should we replace it with 'American convicted for murder' or something similar? Infospazm ( talk) 17:24, 14 September 2019 (UTC)