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I'm not on about the calf treatment issue. What needs sourced emphasis, I think, is the unique phase of horse independent action, acting without command or contact with the rider to judge and maintain tension on the line. AFAIK no other equestrian event asks such a high level task from the horse. Cyranorox ( talk) 20:55, 15 April 2015 (UTC)
Stop deleting contributions (which are documented with citations) to mislead users and sway the article to your "pro-rodeo" stance. Further deletions will be reported as VANDALISM. If you have issues, please discuss them on this page before deleting material and replacing it with your "pro-rodeo" contributions. While it's OK to cite rules in the PRCA book to support your various claims that animals are never exploited, bruised, broken, injured, abused, or killed in rodeo, you should not be deleting material from other contributors that fly in the face of your claims. HatAct ( talk) 05:59, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
"The ASPCA, taking a position not otherwise addressed either by other animal rights groups nor the rodeo industry citation needed, notes that practice sessions are often the location of more severe abuses than competitions. [1] The above italicised phrase should be sourced. We don't know that every animal rights group nor the rodeo industry have not addressed this issue. The cited source does not indicate other animal groups and rodeo have not addressed the issue. The sentence could stand adequately written thus (and in agreement witht he cited source): "The ASPCA notes that practice sessions are often the location of more severe abuses than competitions."
The material being added to this article is too biased toward a WP:FRINGE view of the sport. There are legitimate critiques of calf roping, but they need very reliable sources. Please re-read WP:NPOV, WP:UNDUE and WP:FRINGE before adding material on abuse issues. Montanabw (talk) 06:18, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
I tried to find three of the citations listed on the page on calf roping, and all three of them were dead end links. Surely it is poor practice to have this many claims on an article without any working citations to back them up. Also, there is plenty of published research in reputable scientific journals regarding the topic of animal suffering in rodeo events...None of this is mentioned at all and the article reads as being very one sided in its current state. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.152.179.113 ( talk) 01:38, 2 January 2017 (UTC)
I've fully protected the page due to the ongoing edit war and content dispute, please work this out on the talk page. Dreadstar ☥ 19:05, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
Here is the link to the statutes in the UK that basically ban rodeo, though not stated that bluntly. http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Geo5/24-25/21 This is a better source than PETA for that particular situation.
(1)No person shall promote, or cause or knowingly permit to take place any public performance which includes any episode consisting of or involving— (a)throwing or casting, with ropes or other appliances, any unbroken horse or untrained bull; or (b)wrestling, fighting, or struggling with any untrained bull; or (c)riding, or attempting to ride, any horse or bull which by the use of any appliance or treatment involving cruelty is, or has been, stimulated with the intention of making it buck during the performance; and no person shall in any public performance take part in any such episode as aforesaid.
There appears to be a term of art definition of bull, that includes calves. The Act does not extend to Northern Ireland.
When the lockdown ends, I see no problem updating the statement that calf roping is not allowed in the UK to be updated with this source. Montanabw (talk) 20:39, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
My thinking is that the first two paragraphs of the animal abuse section, stating the "official" rodeo position, are more or less OK as they currently sit. So what is needed is a small expansion of the "anti" section, to make it roughly the same length (it's a wee bit shorter, but we have to watch WP:UNDUE on the whole section so it doesn't bloat the article). I think that, in particular, something like the reason Germany banned calf roping, but not other rodeo events, would be especially useful to this section. The UK law is less helpful because it was passed back in the bad old days when a lot of the stuff that current rodeo opponents use actually DID occur. (but back then, they kept zoo animals in tiny cages, you could beat an animal to death, etc...) I don't have any info on the Netherlands. Here is the current text, maybe add some new material and sources (not the old stuff) that adds balance but in an NPOV tone...? Montanabw (talk) 22:17, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
It is not a matter of equivalent opinions. The 1994 survey is best evidence, even if you disagree with it. The 1994 study was reported in The Horse which is a highly reliable publication sponsored in part by the American Association of Equine Practitioners, and can thus stand as a neutral, third-party source. Stating that the PRCA funded a study makes clear its POV. As noted, the Martin quote may have some credibility and relevance if the original source can verify it. That gives us three balanced viewpoints. However, objectively, Hardy and Finocchio are clearly weak, fringe sources. Hardy's comments about his own life are isolated remarks that cannot be sourced to anything other than animal rights sites, and if he really did harm several calves every practice session, the man was a brute - with no evidence to show if he was considered mainstream or if he was a noted bastard even in his own time who apparently "came to Jesus" later. Finocchio has been shown by politifact to have a tendency to lie through his teeth. Plus, as a Rhode Island vet, he would know precisely squat about actual rodeo - his statements about "firsthand" knowledge are hyperbole -- if that many calves died, we'd have the sport banned nationwide! And no one disputes that a few animals are injured and die at rodeos, so the issue is a discussion of ethics, viewpoints (still waiting for the credible animal rights statement here, by the way) and statistics. I shall propose an alternative rewrite below, incorporating the Martin quote and suggesting what else could be added. Montanabw (talk) 16:55, 4 September 2012 (UTC)
Animal welfare proponents claim, however, that examples of injuries caused by calf roping include paralysis from spinal cord injuries, severed tracheas, as well as broken backs, necks, and legs.[7] Veterinarian Dr. E.J. Finocchio wrote the Rhode Island legislature urging a ban on calf roping: "As a large animal veterinarian for 20 years...I have witnessed first hand the instant death of calves after their spinal cords were severed from the abrupt stop at the end of a rope when traveling up to 30 mph. I have also witnessed and tended calves who became paralyzed...and whose tracheas were totally or partially severed...Slamming to the ground has caused rupture of several internal organs leading to a slow, agonizing death for some of these calves."
Tie-down calf roping is not permitted in the state of Rhode Island or in the city of Baltimore.[8] Tie-down calf roping is also not allowed in some localities in Australia, Brazil and Canada and banned nationally in the United Kingdom, Germany and The Netherlands.[9]
The ASPCA notes that practice sessions are often the occasion of more severe abuses than competitions.[10] Veterinarian Dr. T. K. Hardy notes that "two or three calves are injured in each practice session and have to be replaced."
There are concerns over the welfare of the calves used in professional rodeo, and the industry itself polices events closely, penalizing competitors who "jerk down" a calf with the rope or flip it over backwards.[2] However, viewpoints vary. Dr. Eddie Taylor stated that in 16 years as an attending veterinarian at PRCA rodeos in Arizona, "I personally have not seen a serious neck injury to a tie-down roping calf." [3] Conversely, the San Antonio Livestock Exposition Executive Director Keith Martin once stated, "Do I think it hurts the calf? Sure I do. I'm not stupid."[8]
Deaths and serious injuries are uncommon. Statistically, the rate of injury to the animals is relatively low. In 1994, a survey of 28 sanctioned rodeos was conducted by on-site independent veterinarians. Reviewing 33,991 animal runs, the injury rate was documented at .047%, or less than five-hundredths of one percent.[4] A study of rodeo animals in Australia found a similar injury rate. Basic injuries occurred at a rate of 0.072 percent, or one in 1405, with injuries requiring veterinary attention at 0.036 percent, or one injury in every 2810 times the animal was used, and transport, yarding and competition were all included in the study.[5] A follow up survey conducted by the PRCA of 60,971 animal performances at 198 rodeo performances and 73 sections of "slack" indicated 27 animals were injured at PRCA-sanctioned rodeos, again approximately five-hundredths of 1 percent – 0.0004. [6]
Animal welfare proponents claim, however, that examples of injuries caused by calf roping include paralysis from spinal cord injuries, severed tracheas, as well as broken backs, necks, and legs.[7] However, the evidence presented is primarily from anecdotal accident reports and there are no independent studies that contradict the statistical rate of injury.(cite something) The ASPCA notes that practice sessions are often the occasion of more severe abuses than competitions,[10] but as there have been no studies performed at these settings, both sides rely primarily on ancedotal reports.(cite something)
Tie-down calf roping is not permitted in the state of Rhode Island or in the city of Baltimore.[8] Tie-down calf roping is also not allowed in some localities in Australia, Brazil, and Canada. It is banned nationally in the United Kingdom, Germany and The Netherlands.[9]
I commented on a NB at some time on sources for this topic, I think, and still have this article watch listed so jumped in on the little bit of vandalism, even though I'm not a regular. I know very little about the area, so no worries, I won't start editing here on a regular basis :O)( olive ( talk) 17:21, 11 April 2013 (UTC))
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Once again, I have to manually fix the links because the Bot cannot correctly fix links that are enclosed in square brackets. dawnleelynn (talk) 22:11, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
P.S. I also fixed some that the Bot didn't identify. dawnleelynn (talk) 22:12, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
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I'm not on about the calf treatment issue. What needs sourced emphasis, I think, is the unique phase of horse independent action, acting without command or contact with the rider to judge and maintain tension on the line. AFAIK no other equestrian event asks such a high level task from the horse. Cyranorox ( talk) 20:55, 15 April 2015 (UTC)
Stop deleting contributions (which are documented with citations) to mislead users and sway the article to your "pro-rodeo" stance. Further deletions will be reported as VANDALISM. If you have issues, please discuss them on this page before deleting material and replacing it with your "pro-rodeo" contributions. While it's OK to cite rules in the PRCA book to support your various claims that animals are never exploited, bruised, broken, injured, abused, or killed in rodeo, you should not be deleting material from other contributors that fly in the face of your claims. HatAct ( talk) 05:59, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
"The ASPCA, taking a position not otherwise addressed either by other animal rights groups nor the rodeo industry citation needed, notes that practice sessions are often the location of more severe abuses than competitions. [1] The above italicised phrase should be sourced. We don't know that every animal rights group nor the rodeo industry have not addressed this issue. The cited source does not indicate other animal groups and rodeo have not addressed the issue. The sentence could stand adequately written thus (and in agreement witht he cited source): "The ASPCA notes that practice sessions are often the location of more severe abuses than competitions."
The material being added to this article is too biased toward a WP:FRINGE view of the sport. There are legitimate critiques of calf roping, but they need very reliable sources. Please re-read WP:NPOV, WP:UNDUE and WP:FRINGE before adding material on abuse issues. Montanabw (talk) 06:18, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
I tried to find three of the citations listed on the page on calf roping, and all three of them were dead end links. Surely it is poor practice to have this many claims on an article without any working citations to back them up. Also, there is plenty of published research in reputable scientific journals regarding the topic of animal suffering in rodeo events...None of this is mentioned at all and the article reads as being very one sided in its current state. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.152.179.113 ( talk) 01:38, 2 January 2017 (UTC)
I've fully protected the page due to the ongoing edit war and content dispute, please work this out on the talk page. Dreadstar ☥ 19:05, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
Here is the link to the statutes in the UK that basically ban rodeo, though not stated that bluntly. http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Geo5/24-25/21 This is a better source than PETA for that particular situation.
(1)No person shall promote, or cause or knowingly permit to take place any public performance which includes any episode consisting of or involving— (a)throwing or casting, with ropes or other appliances, any unbroken horse or untrained bull; or (b)wrestling, fighting, or struggling with any untrained bull; or (c)riding, or attempting to ride, any horse or bull which by the use of any appliance or treatment involving cruelty is, or has been, stimulated with the intention of making it buck during the performance; and no person shall in any public performance take part in any such episode as aforesaid.
There appears to be a term of art definition of bull, that includes calves. The Act does not extend to Northern Ireland.
When the lockdown ends, I see no problem updating the statement that calf roping is not allowed in the UK to be updated with this source. Montanabw (talk) 20:39, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
My thinking is that the first two paragraphs of the animal abuse section, stating the "official" rodeo position, are more or less OK as they currently sit. So what is needed is a small expansion of the "anti" section, to make it roughly the same length (it's a wee bit shorter, but we have to watch WP:UNDUE on the whole section so it doesn't bloat the article). I think that, in particular, something like the reason Germany banned calf roping, but not other rodeo events, would be especially useful to this section. The UK law is less helpful because it was passed back in the bad old days when a lot of the stuff that current rodeo opponents use actually DID occur. (but back then, they kept zoo animals in tiny cages, you could beat an animal to death, etc...) I don't have any info on the Netherlands. Here is the current text, maybe add some new material and sources (not the old stuff) that adds balance but in an NPOV tone...? Montanabw (talk) 22:17, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
It is not a matter of equivalent opinions. The 1994 survey is best evidence, even if you disagree with it. The 1994 study was reported in The Horse which is a highly reliable publication sponsored in part by the American Association of Equine Practitioners, and can thus stand as a neutral, third-party source. Stating that the PRCA funded a study makes clear its POV. As noted, the Martin quote may have some credibility and relevance if the original source can verify it. That gives us three balanced viewpoints. However, objectively, Hardy and Finocchio are clearly weak, fringe sources. Hardy's comments about his own life are isolated remarks that cannot be sourced to anything other than animal rights sites, and if he really did harm several calves every practice session, the man was a brute - with no evidence to show if he was considered mainstream or if he was a noted bastard even in his own time who apparently "came to Jesus" later. Finocchio has been shown by politifact to have a tendency to lie through his teeth. Plus, as a Rhode Island vet, he would know precisely squat about actual rodeo - his statements about "firsthand" knowledge are hyperbole -- if that many calves died, we'd have the sport banned nationwide! And no one disputes that a few animals are injured and die at rodeos, so the issue is a discussion of ethics, viewpoints (still waiting for the credible animal rights statement here, by the way) and statistics. I shall propose an alternative rewrite below, incorporating the Martin quote and suggesting what else could be added. Montanabw (talk) 16:55, 4 September 2012 (UTC)
Animal welfare proponents claim, however, that examples of injuries caused by calf roping include paralysis from spinal cord injuries, severed tracheas, as well as broken backs, necks, and legs.[7] Veterinarian Dr. E.J. Finocchio wrote the Rhode Island legislature urging a ban on calf roping: "As a large animal veterinarian for 20 years...I have witnessed first hand the instant death of calves after their spinal cords were severed from the abrupt stop at the end of a rope when traveling up to 30 mph. I have also witnessed and tended calves who became paralyzed...and whose tracheas were totally or partially severed...Slamming to the ground has caused rupture of several internal organs leading to a slow, agonizing death for some of these calves."
Tie-down calf roping is not permitted in the state of Rhode Island or in the city of Baltimore.[8] Tie-down calf roping is also not allowed in some localities in Australia, Brazil and Canada and banned nationally in the United Kingdom, Germany and The Netherlands.[9]
The ASPCA notes that practice sessions are often the occasion of more severe abuses than competitions.[10] Veterinarian Dr. T. K. Hardy notes that "two or three calves are injured in each practice session and have to be replaced."
There are concerns over the welfare of the calves used in professional rodeo, and the industry itself polices events closely, penalizing competitors who "jerk down" a calf with the rope or flip it over backwards.[2] However, viewpoints vary. Dr. Eddie Taylor stated that in 16 years as an attending veterinarian at PRCA rodeos in Arizona, "I personally have not seen a serious neck injury to a tie-down roping calf." [3] Conversely, the San Antonio Livestock Exposition Executive Director Keith Martin once stated, "Do I think it hurts the calf? Sure I do. I'm not stupid."[8]
Deaths and serious injuries are uncommon. Statistically, the rate of injury to the animals is relatively low. In 1994, a survey of 28 sanctioned rodeos was conducted by on-site independent veterinarians. Reviewing 33,991 animal runs, the injury rate was documented at .047%, or less than five-hundredths of one percent.[4] A study of rodeo animals in Australia found a similar injury rate. Basic injuries occurred at a rate of 0.072 percent, or one in 1405, with injuries requiring veterinary attention at 0.036 percent, or one injury in every 2810 times the animal was used, and transport, yarding and competition were all included in the study.[5] A follow up survey conducted by the PRCA of 60,971 animal performances at 198 rodeo performances and 73 sections of "slack" indicated 27 animals were injured at PRCA-sanctioned rodeos, again approximately five-hundredths of 1 percent – 0.0004. [6]
Animal welfare proponents claim, however, that examples of injuries caused by calf roping include paralysis from spinal cord injuries, severed tracheas, as well as broken backs, necks, and legs.[7] However, the evidence presented is primarily from anecdotal accident reports and there are no independent studies that contradict the statistical rate of injury.(cite something) The ASPCA notes that practice sessions are often the occasion of more severe abuses than competitions,[10] but as there have been no studies performed at these settings, both sides rely primarily on ancedotal reports.(cite something)
Tie-down calf roping is not permitted in the state of Rhode Island or in the city of Baltimore.[8] Tie-down calf roping is also not allowed in some localities in Australia, Brazil, and Canada. It is banned nationally in the United Kingdom, Germany and The Netherlands.[9]
I commented on a NB at some time on sources for this topic, I think, and still have this article watch listed so jumped in on the little bit of vandalism, even though I'm not a regular. I know very little about the area, so no worries, I won't start editing here on a regular basis :O)( olive ( talk) 17:21, 11 April 2013 (UTC))
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Once again, I have to manually fix the links because the Bot cannot correctly fix links that are enclosed in square brackets. dawnleelynn (talk) 22:11, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
P.S. I also fixed some that the Bot didn't identify. dawnleelynn (talk) 22:12, 31 July 2017 (UTC)