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Archive 5 | ← | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | Archive 13 |
Regarding this and this? To repeat, the first source states, " 'Let’s go with ‘asexual’ for now,' he said." Second source states "ultimately identifying as asexual." We can leave out the asexual piece and remove Jenner from the asexual category, since it's doubtful that Jenner identifies as asexual in the technical/sexual orientation sense, but "asexual for now" was stated at the time. Åüñîçńøł, regarding the asexual bit that I reverted you on, what are you talking about? The two sources are very clear. Jenner stated "asexual for now." We go by what the sources state, not our own interpretations. And beyond what the sources state, this came out of Jenner's mouth. Flyer22 Frozen ( talk) 02:19, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
Paul August, thoughts? Flyer22 Frozen ( talk) 02:21, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
(This discussion is regarding content in the last paragraph in the article’s section “Coming out as a transgender woman”.)
The article (as it stands now) is incorrectly ascribing to Jenner something Jenner does not say: This article says that Jenner “would identify as asexual for the time being”. Not true. Nowhere does Jenner say that. “Identify” is the wrong word there. Jenner considers that (in her words) “sexuality is who you are personally attracted to. But gender identity is who you are as a person”. Other people may identify in terms of sexuality (or any other category), but Jenner repeatedly says that she identifies as a trans woman, and never says what this article is claiming about asexuality. Self-identification is important and should be accepted (as is stated in a box at the top of this talk page.) The People Magazine article points out that Jenner acknowledges “that it can be confusing for some people to understand that sexual orientation and gender identity are not the same thing.” Jenner also says that there is a “misperception that people transition because of their sexual desires.” When Wikipedia suggests that Jenner identifies as asexual, it’s wrong, it contributes to the confusion that Jenner refers to, and it is also what Wikipedia considers Original Research. There is a 2nd citation — both citations are based on the same thing — a more-than-5-year-old TV interview. Again Jenner never says in that interview that she “identifies as asexual”, but the unnamed author of the 2nd citation interprets Jenner’s comments and says that she was ultimately identifying as asexual. So a Wikipedia editor may insist that that allows Wikipedia to refer to her as identifying as asexual — in spite of her quoted self-expression. But it is contradicted in the original TV interview, in many other reliable sources, and in Jenner’s autobiography, which was recently removed as a source in this section. Removing more recent and up-to-date sources from this section, goes against Wikipedia’s Manual of Style that says that Wikipedia should give precedence to self-designation as reported in the most up-to-date reliable sources. (This is also repeated in a box at the top of this talk page.) More from the boxes at the top: This article is a biography of a living person, and it needs to be edited carefully, and needs to be accurate. Contentious material about a living person that is unsourced or poorly sourced should be removed immediately from this article. The section needs to be corrected. Åüñîçńøł ( talk) 17:32, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I wasn't able to find a reference to his video game from the 90s any way we can put that in? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Jenner%27s_World_Class_Decathlon SJMccarthy ( talk) 00:05, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
The lede mentions Jenner's racing career, but the source provided (NYT) does not. I suggest adding the relevant source from that section of the article, but it's been ages since I've edited and I don't feel confident to do so myself. If someone would like to do so that'd be great, and if not that's cool too. Throwaway85 ( talk) 08:50, 13 July 2020 (UTC)
Currently (July 29, 2020) this article shows a Wheaties box with the person then known as Bruce Jenner on it. The caption indicates that this box dates from the 1970s. That is incorrect. It is a decades-more-recent throwback box.
As a temporary fix I will correct the caption.
I will leave it to other Wikipedians to find a usable image of the older box, which seems preferable in terms of historical value. Such a box can be seen here: https://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/gossip/bruce-jenner-1976-wheaties-cereal-box-auction-article-1.2200926 -- X883 ( talk) 22:22, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
Why are there no pronouns in the Olympic Success section? It says Jenner non-stop and is very repetitive. Why can't this sentence be changed to: At the 1976 Olympic Games in Montreal, she achieved five personal bests on the first day of the men's decathlon – a "home run" – despite being in second place behind Guido Kratschmer of West Germany. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.108.136.102 ( talk) 00:25, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
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Caitlyn Jenner has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
"has been called the most famous athlete in the world" => "has been called by Americans the most famous athlete in the world"
I live in Europe and basically no one has ever heard of her. I guess it's the same in Asia, Africa, etc. It's a common problem with Wikipedia in English and, although mentioned in Wikipedia's rules, generalisations like this should be avoided. 84.102.204.97 ( talk) 07:55, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
No Filmography section, ..needed? I'm looking for Bruce Jenner's / Caitlyn Jenner's although s/he was not involved as Caitlin back when this was a show, looking for this person's involvement in an MTV show I believe it was called The hills? Young people thought it was reality TV but it was clearly scripted and acted, and edited! I'm surprised it's not on this person's Wikipedia article, nor is that show mentioned on Kim Kardashian's article. Thoughts? -From Peter {a.k.a. Vid2vid ( talk | contribs)} 20:46, 17 October 2020 (UTC).
MOS:DEADNAME has an RFC for possible consensus. A discussion is taking place. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments on the discussion page. Thank you. – wallyfromdilbert ( talk) 23:56, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
All personal opinions aside, it's objective to state that it is contentious to use a trans person's deadname.
With Caitlyn Jenner, she happens to hold notoriety from prior fame, so it makes sense in some respects to recount this possibly through usage of her former persona/name/identity/etc., but I'm curious if it is wise/viewed as respectful to denote a trans person's birth name? Is there anything fundamentally gained by stating it? Is there an exception to be made for someone who is famous so that older, pre-transition information is understood more clearly?
My initial inclination would be to say that stating the deadnames, especially in some of the first, head-lining information on an article is possibly contentious and may be interpreted as unnecessary (and, thereby, offensive), but I'm curious if anyone thinks this is a fair enough question to pursue or address. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.184.117.163 ( talk) 00:31, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
I just had to say that this article reads extremely well. I was skeptical knowing how chaotic the consensus-forming process can get with articles that include disputed topics (especially on how to depict them as per WP:MOS). I am sure there are pages and pages of heated discussion but whatever it took to get to this place, this is fantastic. I really strikes a fair balance between being respectful to the subject and being a clear and informative article. You don't hear positives enough on these talk pages. Great job to everyone involved! Hamsterlopithecus ( talk) 21:51, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Caitlyn Jenner has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Change "Assigned male at birth" To "Born a male, he wanted a sex change" 66.222.111.230 ( talk) 05:02, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
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Caitlyn Jenner has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
do not use transgender celebrities dead names. this should not say “(born william bruce jenner)” 70.48.239.122 ( talk) 04:55, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
![]() | This
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Caitlyn Jenner has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
change "Feminist author Germaine Greer" to "Radical feminist author Germaine Greer" so as to briefly identify the school of feminism Germaine Greer belongs to. The page on Germaine Greer /info/en/?search=Germaine_Greer states in the first sentence that Greer is "regarded as one of the major voices of the radical feminist movement" so I believe it makes sense for consistency. CassandraPrime ( talk) 18:38, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
On the section about Bruce coming out as transgender and choosing the new name “Caitlyn,” it says that she underwent “six reassignment surgery.” The proper way to say this would be “six reassignment surgeries.” Because there was more than one surgery, you would use the plural term for surgery. Alessandra-the-great ( talk) 07:36, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
There seems to be a concerted effort to keep male pronouns from this article, even when they refer to Jenner pre-transition. I cannot find any instances of the pronoun "he" in the section referring to his olympic career, including in cases where omission of the pronoun would be grammatically incorrect, such as "Jenner watched teammate Fred Dixon get injured in the 110 meter hurdles, so took a cautious approach to the hurdles and discus." There is no pronoun between the bolded words when there should be. Jenner was indisputably male before 2015, so he should be referred to as such when concerning his Olympic career. The current situation also possibly counts as WP:CENSORSHIP as there may have been a deliberate purge of male pronouns. 053pvr ( talk) 05:10, 28 February 2021 (UTC)
The official site for https://caitlynjenner.com/ does not come up on a Google search. Please add to the Wikipedia page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Disclaimer777cc ( talk • contribs) 03:16, 11 June 2021 (UTC)
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Caitlyn Jenner has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Can we remove her old (dead) name 89.100.84.198 ( talk) 18:58, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
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Caitlyn Jenner has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Change "She ended up voting for Trump in the 2016 presidential election." to
"Jenner claimed to have voted for Trump in the 2016 presidential election. [1] But, voting records show that she never cast a ballot in the election. [2] Thedeamonlord2 ( talk) 23:01, 23 April 2021 (UTC)
References
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cite news}}
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(
help)
![]() | This
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Caitlyn Jenner has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Remove her birth name from the page. That is considered a “dead name” to transgender people and is very offensive to use. 2600:387:A:902:0:0:0:11 ( talk) 20:44, 3 April 2021 (UTC)
"A living transgender or non-binary person's former name should be included in the lead sentence of their main biographical article only if they were notable under it". Since she was quite notable under her former name prior to adopting the name of Caitlyn, we include her former name. If you disagree with this policy, this is not the place to voice it. It has been extensively discussed at WT:MOSBIO; I suggest raising your concerns there. ‑‑ ElHef ( Meep?) 21:12, 3 April 2021 (UTC)
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Change transgender rights activist label as she is actively lobbying against transgender rights 2001:8004:E00:C77C:A8C9:E7A9:F76E:FE10 ( talk) 12:41, 3 May 2021 (UTC)
Calling Caitlyn Jenner a trans rights activist is like calling Candace Owens a BLM leader. It is not only provably false but incredibly offensive and should be removed from Wikipedia immediately. Didacdoodle ( talk) 16:47, 3 May 2021 (UTC)
This is my suggestion as to how it can be worded, once sources cease mention Jenner as a trans rights advocate (although it could be put in earlier). Formerly, this has been accurate, but with the recent events surrounding Jenner, this statement has become misinformation. This rewording does not involve any mention of "trans advocacy", which should be more accurate:
Assigned male at birth, Jenner publicly came out as a trans woman in April 2015, announcing her new name in July. From 2015 to 2016, she starred in the reality television series I Am Cait, which focused on her gender transition. She has been called the most famous transgender woman in the world. However, her views on some transgender issues, notably on trans girls' inclusion in sports, have been criticized by LGBTQ+ and trans activists.
Please let me know what you think and whether this should be implemented or no. Casspedia ( talk) 17:15, 3 May 2021 (UTC)
It appears that this article is being canvassed from Reddit and Twitter by people who want to remove the words "transgender rights activist" from the lead. This Reddit post relating to this article has reached 4000 upvotes. Note that just as canvassing is forbidden on Wikipedia, brigading is forbidden on Reddit. Please do not interfere with the linked Reddit community; an np (non-participation) link is used above as a reminder of this. DaysonZhang ( talk) 01:26, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
Should Caitlyn Jenner be described as a trans rights activist or no? Casspedia ( talk) 16:42, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
has been described as a transgender rights activist(I think that's what Casspedia, who initiated the RfC, thought a "yes" vote meant, judging by her replies), or do they support a full-on Wikivoice statement? Some of the participants have made which one they want clear, but not all. I'd encourage participants to clarify that. Gaelan 💬 ✏️ 06:33, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
References
In the Politics section of the article, the following statement appears: "Jenner said she voted for Trump in the 2016 presidential election, although according to Politico, voter records show she never cast a ballot in the election."
Jenner's participation in the 8 November 2016 election was officially certified on 26 April 2021 by the Los Angeles County Registrar-Recorder/County Clerk, Dean Logan, based on data held in the county's voters' roster ( link to Logan's officially certified document). Indeed, Logan certified that Jenner voted in every quadrennial election in the period he documented, from 2000 to 2020 — in all six elections.
While a citation is provided in the article to support the claim that "she never cast a ballot in the election" this is contradicted by official public records and by the officially certified statement by the county official. This contradiction requires resolution. I am inclined to prefer the official county record over a claim published by Politico. — O'Dea ( talk) 10:15, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
The article says:
Jenner has backed her views by stating that it's unfair for trans girls, who were biological boys, to compete against girls because their bodies are biologically different.
Taken literally, this implies that all people are biologically cisgender and that transgenderism must be something that exists exclusively because of nurture. Can anyone discuss this statement?? Georgia guy ( talk) 10:09, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
Agreed, but that's the quote from her. Perhaps the formatting could be cleared up to make it clear that those are *her* views and not the page's editorial staff. Stelith ( talk) 11:11, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
Kbabej, claiming a consensus on RfC
, made
this edit. I'm not sure that edit is supported by the result of that RfC.
The question in that RfC was Should Caitlyn Jenner be described as a trans rights activist or no?
. From the RfC author's other comments (it's "already" there and this RFC is concerning whether to remove or keep it
, I believe her intent was that a "yes" !vote supported the status quo, an attributed mention, and a "no" !vote supported removing the claim altogether. Reading the comments, some of the "yes" !voters also thought they were supporting an attributed mention (e.g. Crossroads: it has WP:In-text attribution
; Stelith: Yes to the Current Wording
; Urve: lead wording is attributed
), while others are clearly in favor of a wikivoice mention (e.g. Pincrete rejection of the chronically disingenuous current phrasing
, Spy-cicle: should be described by such in wikivoice
, Kbabej: There's no need to bury it, or to add the qualifier of "has been described as"
). Most !votes (ones with shorter comments) aren't clear either way.
The consensus, as described by
buidhe, is to describe Jenner as a trans rights activist based on coverage in reliable sources
. We clearly have a consensus to describe her as a trans rights activist in some form, but I don't see, either in my reading of the discussion nor in the close message, a consensus either to use in-text attribution or not, and certainly not a consensus to remove "though her views on transgender issues have been criticized" clause, which was discussed very little.
To be clear, I have very little desire to re-litigate this, and I haven't reverted the edit. But I don't think it's at all clear that the edit here is supported by consensus, so I'm not comfortable just letting it stand without discussion. Gaelan 💬 ✏️ 22:35, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
is a trans rights activist, though her views…
is a trans rights activist. Her views…
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | Archive 13 |
Regarding this and this? To repeat, the first source states, " 'Let’s go with ‘asexual’ for now,' he said." Second source states "ultimately identifying as asexual." We can leave out the asexual piece and remove Jenner from the asexual category, since it's doubtful that Jenner identifies as asexual in the technical/sexual orientation sense, but "asexual for now" was stated at the time. Åüñîçńøł, regarding the asexual bit that I reverted you on, what are you talking about? The two sources are very clear. Jenner stated "asexual for now." We go by what the sources state, not our own interpretations. And beyond what the sources state, this came out of Jenner's mouth. Flyer22 Frozen ( talk) 02:19, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
Paul August, thoughts? Flyer22 Frozen ( talk) 02:21, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
(This discussion is regarding content in the last paragraph in the article’s section “Coming out as a transgender woman”.)
The article (as it stands now) is incorrectly ascribing to Jenner something Jenner does not say: This article says that Jenner “would identify as asexual for the time being”. Not true. Nowhere does Jenner say that. “Identify” is the wrong word there. Jenner considers that (in her words) “sexuality is who you are personally attracted to. But gender identity is who you are as a person”. Other people may identify in terms of sexuality (or any other category), but Jenner repeatedly says that she identifies as a trans woman, and never says what this article is claiming about asexuality. Self-identification is important and should be accepted (as is stated in a box at the top of this talk page.) The People Magazine article points out that Jenner acknowledges “that it can be confusing for some people to understand that sexual orientation and gender identity are not the same thing.” Jenner also says that there is a “misperception that people transition because of their sexual desires.” When Wikipedia suggests that Jenner identifies as asexual, it’s wrong, it contributes to the confusion that Jenner refers to, and it is also what Wikipedia considers Original Research. There is a 2nd citation — both citations are based on the same thing — a more-than-5-year-old TV interview. Again Jenner never says in that interview that she “identifies as asexual”, but the unnamed author of the 2nd citation interprets Jenner’s comments and says that she was ultimately identifying as asexual. So a Wikipedia editor may insist that that allows Wikipedia to refer to her as identifying as asexual — in spite of her quoted self-expression. But it is contradicted in the original TV interview, in many other reliable sources, and in Jenner’s autobiography, which was recently removed as a source in this section. Removing more recent and up-to-date sources from this section, goes against Wikipedia’s Manual of Style that says that Wikipedia should give precedence to self-designation as reported in the most up-to-date reliable sources. (This is also repeated in a box at the top of this talk page.) More from the boxes at the top: This article is a biography of a living person, and it needs to be edited carefully, and needs to be accurate. Contentious material about a living person that is unsourced or poorly sourced should be removed immediately from this article. The section needs to be corrected. Åüñîçńøł ( talk) 17:32, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I wasn't able to find a reference to his video game from the 90s any way we can put that in? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Jenner%27s_World_Class_Decathlon SJMccarthy ( talk) 00:05, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
The lede mentions Jenner's racing career, but the source provided (NYT) does not. I suggest adding the relevant source from that section of the article, but it's been ages since I've edited and I don't feel confident to do so myself. If someone would like to do so that'd be great, and if not that's cool too. Throwaway85 ( talk) 08:50, 13 July 2020 (UTC)
Currently (July 29, 2020) this article shows a Wheaties box with the person then known as Bruce Jenner on it. The caption indicates that this box dates from the 1970s. That is incorrect. It is a decades-more-recent throwback box.
As a temporary fix I will correct the caption.
I will leave it to other Wikipedians to find a usable image of the older box, which seems preferable in terms of historical value. Such a box can be seen here: https://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/gossip/bruce-jenner-1976-wheaties-cereal-box-auction-article-1.2200926 -- X883 ( talk) 22:22, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
Why are there no pronouns in the Olympic Success section? It says Jenner non-stop and is very repetitive. Why can't this sentence be changed to: At the 1976 Olympic Games in Montreal, she achieved five personal bests on the first day of the men's decathlon – a "home run" – despite being in second place behind Guido Kratschmer of West Germany. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.108.136.102 ( talk) 00:25, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Caitlyn Jenner has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
"has been called the most famous athlete in the world" => "has been called by Americans the most famous athlete in the world"
I live in Europe and basically no one has ever heard of her. I guess it's the same in Asia, Africa, etc. It's a common problem with Wikipedia in English and, although mentioned in Wikipedia's rules, generalisations like this should be avoided. 84.102.204.97 ( talk) 07:55, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
No Filmography section, ..needed? I'm looking for Bruce Jenner's / Caitlyn Jenner's although s/he was not involved as Caitlin back when this was a show, looking for this person's involvement in an MTV show I believe it was called The hills? Young people thought it was reality TV but it was clearly scripted and acted, and edited! I'm surprised it's not on this person's Wikipedia article, nor is that show mentioned on Kim Kardashian's article. Thoughts? -From Peter {a.k.a. Vid2vid ( talk | contribs)} 20:46, 17 October 2020 (UTC).
MOS:DEADNAME has an RFC for possible consensus. A discussion is taking place. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments on the discussion page. Thank you. – wallyfromdilbert ( talk) 23:56, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
All personal opinions aside, it's objective to state that it is contentious to use a trans person's deadname.
With Caitlyn Jenner, she happens to hold notoriety from prior fame, so it makes sense in some respects to recount this possibly through usage of her former persona/name/identity/etc., but I'm curious if it is wise/viewed as respectful to denote a trans person's birth name? Is there anything fundamentally gained by stating it? Is there an exception to be made for someone who is famous so that older, pre-transition information is understood more clearly?
My initial inclination would be to say that stating the deadnames, especially in some of the first, head-lining information on an article is possibly contentious and may be interpreted as unnecessary (and, thereby, offensive), but I'm curious if anyone thinks this is a fair enough question to pursue or address. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.184.117.163 ( talk) 00:31, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
I just had to say that this article reads extremely well. I was skeptical knowing how chaotic the consensus-forming process can get with articles that include disputed topics (especially on how to depict them as per WP:MOS). I am sure there are pages and pages of heated discussion but whatever it took to get to this place, this is fantastic. I really strikes a fair balance between being respectful to the subject and being a clear and informative article. You don't hear positives enough on these talk pages. Great job to everyone involved! Hamsterlopithecus ( talk) 21:51, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Caitlyn Jenner has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Change "Assigned male at birth" To "Born a male, he wanted a sex change" 66.222.111.230 ( talk) 05:02, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Caitlyn Jenner has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
do not use transgender celebrities dead names. this should not say “(born william bruce jenner)” 70.48.239.122 ( talk) 04:55, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Caitlyn Jenner has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
change "Feminist author Germaine Greer" to "Radical feminist author Germaine Greer" so as to briefly identify the school of feminism Germaine Greer belongs to. The page on Germaine Greer /info/en/?search=Germaine_Greer states in the first sentence that Greer is "regarded as one of the major voices of the radical feminist movement" so I believe it makes sense for consistency. CassandraPrime ( talk) 18:38, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
On the section about Bruce coming out as transgender and choosing the new name “Caitlyn,” it says that she underwent “six reassignment surgery.” The proper way to say this would be “six reassignment surgeries.” Because there was more than one surgery, you would use the plural term for surgery. Alessandra-the-great ( talk) 07:36, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
There seems to be a concerted effort to keep male pronouns from this article, even when they refer to Jenner pre-transition. I cannot find any instances of the pronoun "he" in the section referring to his olympic career, including in cases where omission of the pronoun would be grammatically incorrect, such as "Jenner watched teammate Fred Dixon get injured in the 110 meter hurdles, so took a cautious approach to the hurdles and discus." There is no pronoun between the bolded words when there should be. Jenner was indisputably male before 2015, so he should be referred to as such when concerning his Olympic career. The current situation also possibly counts as WP:CENSORSHIP as there may have been a deliberate purge of male pronouns. 053pvr ( talk) 05:10, 28 February 2021 (UTC)
The official site for https://caitlynjenner.com/ does not come up on a Google search. Please add to the Wikipedia page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Disclaimer777cc ( talk • contribs) 03:16, 11 June 2021 (UTC)
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Caitlyn Jenner has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Can we remove her old (dead) name 89.100.84.198 ( talk) 18:58, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
![]() | This
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Caitlyn Jenner has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Change "She ended up voting for Trump in the 2016 presidential election." to
"Jenner claimed to have voted for Trump in the 2016 presidential election. [1] But, voting records show that she never cast a ballot in the election. [2] Thedeamonlord2 ( talk) 23:01, 23 April 2021 (UTC)
References
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
![]() | This
edit request to
Caitlyn Jenner has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Remove her birth name from the page. That is considered a “dead name” to transgender people and is very offensive to use. 2600:387:A:902:0:0:0:11 ( talk) 20:44, 3 April 2021 (UTC)
"A living transgender or non-binary person's former name should be included in the lead sentence of their main biographical article only if they were notable under it". Since she was quite notable under her former name prior to adopting the name of Caitlyn, we include her former name. If you disagree with this policy, this is not the place to voice it. It has been extensively discussed at WT:MOSBIO; I suggest raising your concerns there. ‑‑ ElHef ( Meep?) 21:12, 3 April 2021 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Caitlyn Jenner has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Change transgender rights activist label as she is actively lobbying against transgender rights 2001:8004:E00:C77C:A8C9:E7A9:F76E:FE10 ( talk) 12:41, 3 May 2021 (UTC)
Calling Caitlyn Jenner a trans rights activist is like calling Candace Owens a BLM leader. It is not only provably false but incredibly offensive and should be removed from Wikipedia immediately. Didacdoodle ( talk) 16:47, 3 May 2021 (UTC)
This is my suggestion as to how it can be worded, once sources cease mention Jenner as a trans rights advocate (although it could be put in earlier). Formerly, this has been accurate, but with the recent events surrounding Jenner, this statement has become misinformation. This rewording does not involve any mention of "trans advocacy", which should be more accurate:
Assigned male at birth, Jenner publicly came out as a trans woman in April 2015, announcing her new name in July. From 2015 to 2016, she starred in the reality television series I Am Cait, which focused on her gender transition. She has been called the most famous transgender woman in the world. However, her views on some transgender issues, notably on trans girls' inclusion in sports, have been criticized by LGBTQ+ and trans activists.
Please let me know what you think and whether this should be implemented or no. Casspedia ( talk) 17:15, 3 May 2021 (UTC)
It appears that this article is being canvassed from Reddit and Twitter by people who want to remove the words "transgender rights activist" from the lead. This Reddit post relating to this article has reached 4000 upvotes. Note that just as canvassing is forbidden on Wikipedia, brigading is forbidden on Reddit. Please do not interfere with the linked Reddit community; an np (non-participation) link is used above as a reminder of this. DaysonZhang ( talk) 01:26, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
Should Caitlyn Jenner be described as a trans rights activist or no? Casspedia ( talk) 16:42, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
has been described as a transgender rights activist(I think that's what Casspedia, who initiated the RfC, thought a "yes" vote meant, judging by her replies), or do they support a full-on Wikivoice statement? Some of the participants have made which one they want clear, but not all. I'd encourage participants to clarify that. Gaelan 💬 ✏️ 06:33, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
References
In the Politics section of the article, the following statement appears: "Jenner said she voted for Trump in the 2016 presidential election, although according to Politico, voter records show she never cast a ballot in the election."
Jenner's participation in the 8 November 2016 election was officially certified on 26 April 2021 by the Los Angeles County Registrar-Recorder/County Clerk, Dean Logan, based on data held in the county's voters' roster ( link to Logan's officially certified document). Indeed, Logan certified that Jenner voted in every quadrennial election in the period he documented, from 2000 to 2020 — in all six elections.
While a citation is provided in the article to support the claim that "she never cast a ballot in the election" this is contradicted by official public records and by the officially certified statement by the county official. This contradiction requires resolution. I am inclined to prefer the official county record over a claim published by Politico. — O'Dea ( talk) 10:15, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
The article says:
Jenner has backed her views by stating that it's unfair for trans girls, who were biological boys, to compete against girls because their bodies are biologically different.
Taken literally, this implies that all people are biologically cisgender and that transgenderism must be something that exists exclusively because of nurture. Can anyone discuss this statement?? Georgia guy ( talk) 10:09, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
Agreed, but that's the quote from her. Perhaps the formatting could be cleared up to make it clear that those are *her* views and not the page's editorial staff. Stelith ( talk) 11:11, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
Kbabej, claiming a consensus on RfC
, made
this edit. I'm not sure that edit is supported by the result of that RfC.
The question in that RfC was Should Caitlyn Jenner be described as a trans rights activist or no?
. From the RfC author's other comments (it's "already" there and this RFC is concerning whether to remove or keep it
, I believe her intent was that a "yes" !vote supported the status quo, an attributed mention, and a "no" !vote supported removing the claim altogether. Reading the comments, some of the "yes" !voters also thought they were supporting an attributed mention (e.g. Crossroads: it has WP:In-text attribution
; Stelith: Yes to the Current Wording
; Urve: lead wording is attributed
), while others are clearly in favor of a wikivoice mention (e.g. Pincrete rejection of the chronically disingenuous current phrasing
, Spy-cicle: should be described by such in wikivoice
, Kbabej: There's no need to bury it, or to add the qualifier of "has been described as"
). Most !votes (ones with shorter comments) aren't clear either way.
The consensus, as described by
buidhe, is to describe Jenner as a trans rights activist based on coverage in reliable sources
. We clearly have a consensus to describe her as a trans rights activist in some form, but I don't see, either in my reading of the discussion nor in the close message, a consensus either to use in-text attribution or not, and certainly not a consensus to remove "though her views on transgender issues have been criticized" clause, which was discussed very little.
To be clear, I have very little desire to re-litigate this, and I haven't reverted the edit. But I don't think it's at all clear that the edit here is supported by consensus, so I'm not comfortable just letting it stand without discussion. Gaelan 💬 ✏️ 22:35, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
is a trans rights activist, though her views…
is a trans rights activist. Her views…