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This article is written in American English, which has its own spelling conventions (color, defense, traveled) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
The local pronunciation of Cadiz is NOT the traditional Spanish one of 'ka-diθ", it is more like kaj.
Is this correct? Normally one thinks of the strait of Gibraltar as separating the Mediterranean from the Atlantic Ocean. And Cadiz is situated west of Gibraltar.
Sebastjan
Following on from this, stating that Cadiz is the oldest city in Europe is simply false. The article gives a founding date of 1200BC, which is not very ancient. Take the following from the article on Athens, for example:
"The history of Athens is the longest of any city in Europe: Athens has been continuously inhabited for at least 3,000 years" and "The Acropolis of Athens was inhabited from Neolithic times." Neolithic, i.e. stone age!
Or take into account information from the article on Korinthos in Greece: "The city was founded in the Neolithic Age, circa 6000 BC."
Don't get me wrong, Cadiz is a beautiful city with a lot of history, but it certainly isn't the oldest city in Europe :)
I do not see the problem with the definition. The definition here is a cultural and geographical one, not a political one. The is probably the first urban culture in Europe, but it is also closely related to the middle east cultures. Outside that sphere, a foundation date of 1200 BC is certainly ancient, as we are not talking about human presence, but the fundation of the city.
Also, I would dispute this "Traditionally, its founding is dated to 1104 BC[4] although no archaeological strata on the site can be dated earlier than the ninth century" when in the same article we have a pic of a roman theatre and a phoenician sarcophagus... Should not it be ninth century BC? Leirus ( talk) 13:38, 16 March 2010 (UTC)Leirus Leirus
I heard that the fact that the Greek and Roman names (Gadeira and Gades) are plural point to being several nuclei.-- Error 01:56, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)
In Geographica, by Strabo, two nuclei are mentioned by name "As for their city, the one they lived in at first was very small indeed, but Balbus of Gades, who gained the honour of a triumph, founded another for them, which they call "Nea";and the city which is composed of the two they call "Didyme". (Book III chapter 5 pag 131).
Leirus (
talk) 13:38, 16 March 2010 (UTC)Leirus
Leirus
The city of Cádiz is usually refered as "la tacita de plata" (the little silver cup). Can this be considered a nickname? -- surueña 08:41, July 17, 2005 (UTC)
The Cadiz page said 1495, but the Christopher Columbus page said 1493. I've made the bold assumption that more people would be checking the accuracy of the Columbus page, and changed the Cadiz page to 1493.
Why is this page under Cádiz and not the more common English spelling of Cadiz? Possibly the four most common usages for the city in English documents are Christopher Columbus setting sail for the new world, Drake's singing of the king of Spain's beard, the fleet that sailed to its doom at Trafalgar, and Wellington's Siege of Cadiz. The final usage would be modern usage as a travel destination but even under that the word is usually spelt Cadiz -- Philip Baird Shearer 00:30, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
Homer describes Ithaca as "amphialos" which means: "with a sea on each side"; A perfect description for a place between the Mediterranean and the Atlantic.
Also, the situation described by Homer perfectly matches with how this region was 3200 years ago: the Guadalete delta not yet turned into land and Ithaca being the most westerly situated island but yet closest to the mainland. You can find a map on page 137 of Iman Wilkens latest book; the 2005 edition.
Furthermore, there are other places in the region that sound Homeric: Gerena (pronounced Gerenia) (Nestor!) Pylos, now Pilas, Sparta, now Esparteros mountain, Sidon, now Medina Sidonia (town of Sidon). 212.123.163.102 07:53, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
Pardon me, but I don't see exactly how this articel is related to the subject or why that thing is on top of the talk page. 68.39.174.238 01:26, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
Someone please include a reference to Camarón de la Isla, who's birthplace is Cádiz (or Cadiz =). He was the most famous and influential Flamenco singer. A lot of his songs are about Cadiz too. Keep up the good work
Evitavired: I think that he was born in San Fernando, which is just up the coast. Great singer, I agree. But, the article should probabably link in from the page relating to the province of Cadiz.
-- Evitavired There are some excellent videos of Cadiz on You Tube. I have attached links to three, which I believe really add something to the page. I'm not sure whether this is in accordance with Wikipedia policy, and so they may be deleted: it would be a shame if they are though.
-- Evitavired I have re-organised landmarks into Landmark bulidings, plazas, city wall, roman cadiz and others: hopefully, this is useful and over time we can add in other important features such as the Royal Prison for the landmark buildings, and castillo santa catalina, castillo san sebastian, parque genoves and the alameda for the city walls. Does anyone else think that the landmarks section should feature just below the history section?
I have a red link for a church in the Grotto Santa Cueva where Joseph Haydn's The Seven Last Words of Christ was first performed in 1787. Is this place still there? Is there an an article for it? Thanks. DavidRF ( talk) 07:04, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
The decline in population is atributed to (excuse the para-phrasing) 'a lack of high rise housing', 'a new national law governing coastal development that thwarts the possibility of reclaiming land from the sea' and 'the highest unemployement rate in Spain', but no references are given. I think the points listed above (particular geographic situation, laws governing coastal development in spain, one of the highest rates of unemployment in Spain) can all be described (with references) without having to make a link to the population statistics or make statements like'Replacement of these old buildings with high-density apartment projects would allow Cádiz to sustain a higher population.'. Does anyone agree that this section has alot of nonfactual content (politely put)? How does this work, should i go ahead and edit it? Lizard1976 ( talk) 17:39, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
(moved section to correct place in sequence. Moonraker12 ( talk) 14:45, 7 December 2009 (UTC))
-- Evitavired I think that the Cadiz Old Town can be characterised by its narrow streets, its squares and the City walls which border the atlantic. Most (but not all) of the principal landmarks are either in a square or form part of the City walls and fortifications. I have re-organised the landmarks section so that each of the principal squares is covered and where a landmark building is situated in that square it is described at that point. I have done the same for the City walls in relation to the castles, gates and baulaurtes. I have then added on a further section for other landmarks. There are many things still to add, such as the Parque Genoves, the Royal Prison and several of the churches, and I will try to get to these in due course. I have also added several entries already. Does anybody else have any thoughts on this approach? cadiz is a city in spain and the people that is living there....the speak spanish--by:crystal t. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Crystal talbert ( talk • contribs) 21:50, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
Why is there such a short mention of Moorish rule which lasted 400 years? I really don't think a single sentence will suffice for such an extensive and pivotal portion of the history of Cadiz and of Andalusia, and Spain itself. Those who are knowledgeable of the topic or have access to sources PLEASE attempt to expand on this. Much has been made of Cadiz' Roman history, yet nothing of its equally long history under Moorish rule except a dismissive line about how it was "finally reconquered". Disgraceful. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.206.52.17 ( talk) 23:54, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
Someone seems to have inserted a joke reference to the layout of Cadiz being planned after a suburb of Sacramento, California, which is totally ridiculous. I would just delete it but I don't edit much these days and wanted to bring this up with the group first. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.103.148.141 ( talk) 22:44, 18 December 2011 (UTC)
How is there no mention of the Idol of Cadiz? The gold plated bronze statue built by Phoenicians, destroyed by the Moors; standing 180 feet high for more than 1000 years.
Well, from the conversation above, it took some doing, but we finally got this at the English common name. Yay, us. Now the rest of the name stuff.
I'm normally all in favor of lumping the foreign names into the first line and letting Wiktionary handle pronunciation, but this page seems special.
The intro sentence was atrocious and the name in various languages was then copied two more times (once in the name section and again in the history section). Go back through the MOS if you don't believe me, but you really don't include all the foreign text if it's already clearly presented elsewhere on the page. It's just needless at that point. (Someone could punch up a table, I suppose, but the current name section seems fine.)
The English pronunciations are the real killer, though. I got one reliable source but it just gave out a list. I'm not sure there are even standard American and British ways of saying this place: younger Brits probably copy " Ibeetha" and older ones something like "Kahdeez" and in America it varies just between Kentucky and Ohio. I found this and it seems pretty interesting (the poems by Edward Lear and Auden rhyming it with "ladies" and "Mercedes" like they were from Kentucky, especially) but we need a more reliable (current) source to use any of it.
We could also use something that explains that /kai/ is actually the local pronunciation and /kath-is/ is just the general Andalucian one, if that's true. — LlywelynII 15:28, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
Per Engvar, this edit established the usage as American English and that should kindly be maintained. — LlywelynII 17:23, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
Noting that Frommers and Lonely Planet spell the city Cádiz, is it still true that "Cadiz" in modern Spanish context is an exonym?
The result of the proposal was moved. -- BDD ( talk) 16:44, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
Cadiz → Cádiz – Frommers has moved from Cadiz ( 2007) to Cádiz ( 2012). That might sound like a strange rationale for a move, but 90% of English sources with full fonts since 2000 are treating the city as an endonym "Cádiz" rather than having an English exonym "Cadiz". Although Cádiz harbour was where Sir Francis Drake "singed the king of Spain's beard" in 1587, and 10 years later the British landed and burnt the city to the ground in 1596, it was never a British possession and, whether this is a factor or not, has never had an "English name." Also WP:AT consistency with Province of Cádiz. In ictu oculi ( talk) 09:05, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
"More recently, some English speakers hypercorrect and attempt to employ the Spanish lisp"
What a retarded piece of information. What is "the Spanish lisp"? A lisp is "a speech impediment in which a person misarticulates sibilants ([s], [z], [ts], [dz]), ([ʃ], [ʒ], [tʃ], [dʒ]).". How is the Spanish sound /θ/ misarticulated in that name? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.146.69.224 ( talk) 19:20, 23 May 2017 (UTC)
Cádiz is from Arabic قادس (Qādis), from Latin Gades Bompanigcc ( talk) 08:29, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
This
level-5 vital article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This article is written in American English, which has its own spelling conventions (color, defense, traveled) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
The local pronunciation of Cadiz is NOT the traditional Spanish one of 'ka-diθ", it is more like kaj.
Is this correct? Normally one thinks of the strait of Gibraltar as separating the Mediterranean from the Atlantic Ocean. And Cadiz is situated west of Gibraltar.
Sebastjan
Following on from this, stating that Cadiz is the oldest city in Europe is simply false. The article gives a founding date of 1200BC, which is not very ancient. Take the following from the article on Athens, for example:
"The history of Athens is the longest of any city in Europe: Athens has been continuously inhabited for at least 3,000 years" and "The Acropolis of Athens was inhabited from Neolithic times." Neolithic, i.e. stone age!
Or take into account information from the article on Korinthos in Greece: "The city was founded in the Neolithic Age, circa 6000 BC."
Don't get me wrong, Cadiz is a beautiful city with a lot of history, but it certainly isn't the oldest city in Europe :)
I do not see the problem with the definition. The definition here is a cultural and geographical one, not a political one. The is probably the first urban culture in Europe, but it is also closely related to the middle east cultures. Outside that sphere, a foundation date of 1200 BC is certainly ancient, as we are not talking about human presence, but the fundation of the city.
Also, I would dispute this "Traditionally, its founding is dated to 1104 BC[4] although no archaeological strata on the site can be dated earlier than the ninth century" when in the same article we have a pic of a roman theatre and a phoenician sarcophagus... Should not it be ninth century BC? Leirus ( talk) 13:38, 16 March 2010 (UTC)Leirus Leirus
I heard that the fact that the Greek and Roman names (Gadeira and Gades) are plural point to being several nuclei.-- Error 01:56, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)
In Geographica, by Strabo, two nuclei are mentioned by name "As for their city, the one they lived in at first was very small indeed, but Balbus of Gades, who gained the honour of a triumph, founded another for them, which they call "Nea";and the city which is composed of the two they call "Didyme". (Book III chapter 5 pag 131).
Leirus (
talk) 13:38, 16 March 2010 (UTC)Leirus
Leirus
The city of Cádiz is usually refered as "la tacita de plata" (the little silver cup). Can this be considered a nickname? -- surueña 08:41, July 17, 2005 (UTC)
The Cadiz page said 1495, but the Christopher Columbus page said 1493. I've made the bold assumption that more people would be checking the accuracy of the Columbus page, and changed the Cadiz page to 1493.
Why is this page under Cádiz and not the more common English spelling of Cadiz? Possibly the four most common usages for the city in English documents are Christopher Columbus setting sail for the new world, Drake's singing of the king of Spain's beard, the fleet that sailed to its doom at Trafalgar, and Wellington's Siege of Cadiz. The final usage would be modern usage as a travel destination but even under that the word is usually spelt Cadiz -- Philip Baird Shearer 00:30, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
Homer describes Ithaca as "amphialos" which means: "with a sea on each side"; A perfect description for a place between the Mediterranean and the Atlantic.
Also, the situation described by Homer perfectly matches with how this region was 3200 years ago: the Guadalete delta not yet turned into land and Ithaca being the most westerly situated island but yet closest to the mainland. You can find a map on page 137 of Iman Wilkens latest book; the 2005 edition.
Furthermore, there are other places in the region that sound Homeric: Gerena (pronounced Gerenia) (Nestor!) Pylos, now Pilas, Sparta, now Esparteros mountain, Sidon, now Medina Sidonia (town of Sidon). 212.123.163.102 07:53, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
Pardon me, but I don't see exactly how this articel is related to the subject or why that thing is on top of the talk page. 68.39.174.238 01:26, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
Someone please include a reference to Camarón de la Isla, who's birthplace is Cádiz (or Cadiz =). He was the most famous and influential Flamenco singer. A lot of his songs are about Cadiz too. Keep up the good work
Evitavired: I think that he was born in San Fernando, which is just up the coast. Great singer, I agree. But, the article should probabably link in from the page relating to the province of Cadiz.
-- Evitavired There are some excellent videos of Cadiz on You Tube. I have attached links to three, which I believe really add something to the page. I'm not sure whether this is in accordance with Wikipedia policy, and so they may be deleted: it would be a shame if they are though.
-- Evitavired I have re-organised landmarks into Landmark bulidings, plazas, city wall, roman cadiz and others: hopefully, this is useful and over time we can add in other important features such as the Royal Prison for the landmark buildings, and castillo santa catalina, castillo san sebastian, parque genoves and the alameda for the city walls. Does anyone else think that the landmarks section should feature just below the history section?
I have a red link for a church in the Grotto Santa Cueva where Joseph Haydn's The Seven Last Words of Christ was first performed in 1787. Is this place still there? Is there an an article for it? Thanks. DavidRF ( talk) 07:04, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
The decline in population is atributed to (excuse the para-phrasing) 'a lack of high rise housing', 'a new national law governing coastal development that thwarts the possibility of reclaiming land from the sea' and 'the highest unemployement rate in Spain', but no references are given. I think the points listed above (particular geographic situation, laws governing coastal development in spain, one of the highest rates of unemployment in Spain) can all be described (with references) without having to make a link to the population statistics or make statements like'Replacement of these old buildings with high-density apartment projects would allow Cádiz to sustain a higher population.'. Does anyone agree that this section has alot of nonfactual content (politely put)? How does this work, should i go ahead and edit it? Lizard1976 ( talk) 17:39, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
(moved section to correct place in sequence. Moonraker12 ( talk) 14:45, 7 December 2009 (UTC))
-- Evitavired I think that the Cadiz Old Town can be characterised by its narrow streets, its squares and the City walls which border the atlantic. Most (but not all) of the principal landmarks are either in a square or form part of the City walls and fortifications. I have re-organised the landmarks section so that each of the principal squares is covered and where a landmark building is situated in that square it is described at that point. I have done the same for the City walls in relation to the castles, gates and baulaurtes. I have then added on a further section for other landmarks. There are many things still to add, such as the Parque Genoves, the Royal Prison and several of the churches, and I will try to get to these in due course. I have also added several entries already. Does anybody else have any thoughts on this approach? cadiz is a city in spain and the people that is living there....the speak spanish--by:crystal t. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Crystal talbert ( talk • contribs) 21:50, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
Why is there such a short mention of Moorish rule which lasted 400 years? I really don't think a single sentence will suffice for such an extensive and pivotal portion of the history of Cadiz and of Andalusia, and Spain itself. Those who are knowledgeable of the topic or have access to sources PLEASE attempt to expand on this. Much has been made of Cadiz' Roman history, yet nothing of its equally long history under Moorish rule except a dismissive line about how it was "finally reconquered". Disgraceful. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.206.52.17 ( talk) 23:54, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
Someone seems to have inserted a joke reference to the layout of Cadiz being planned after a suburb of Sacramento, California, which is totally ridiculous. I would just delete it but I don't edit much these days and wanted to bring this up with the group first. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.103.148.141 ( talk) 22:44, 18 December 2011 (UTC)
How is there no mention of the Idol of Cadiz? The gold plated bronze statue built by Phoenicians, destroyed by the Moors; standing 180 feet high for more than 1000 years.
Well, from the conversation above, it took some doing, but we finally got this at the English common name. Yay, us. Now the rest of the name stuff.
I'm normally all in favor of lumping the foreign names into the first line and letting Wiktionary handle pronunciation, but this page seems special.
The intro sentence was atrocious and the name in various languages was then copied two more times (once in the name section and again in the history section). Go back through the MOS if you don't believe me, but you really don't include all the foreign text if it's already clearly presented elsewhere on the page. It's just needless at that point. (Someone could punch up a table, I suppose, but the current name section seems fine.)
The English pronunciations are the real killer, though. I got one reliable source but it just gave out a list. I'm not sure there are even standard American and British ways of saying this place: younger Brits probably copy " Ibeetha" and older ones something like "Kahdeez" and in America it varies just between Kentucky and Ohio. I found this and it seems pretty interesting (the poems by Edward Lear and Auden rhyming it with "ladies" and "Mercedes" like they were from Kentucky, especially) but we need a more reliable (current) source to use any of it.
We could also use something that explains that /kai/ is actually the local pronunciation and /kath-is/ is just the general Andalucian one, if that's true. — LlywelynII 15:28, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
Per Engvar, this edit established the usage as American English and that should kindly be maintained. — LlywelynII 17:23, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
Noting that Frommers and Lonely Planet spell the city Cádiz, is it still true that "Cadiz" in modern Spanish context is an exonym?
The result of the proposal was moved. -- BDD ( talk) 16:44, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
Cadiz → Cádiz – Frommers has moved from Cadiz ( 2007) to Cádiz ( 2012). That might sound like a strange rationale for a move, but 90% of English sources with full fonts since 2000 are treating the city as an endonym "Cádiz" rather than having an English exonym "Cadiz". Although Cádiz harbour was where Sir Francis Drake "singed the king of Spain's beard" in 1587, and 10 years later the British landed and burnt the city to the ground in 1596, it was never a British possession and, whether this is a factor or not, has never had an "English name." Also WP:AT consistency with Province of Cádiz. In ictu oculi ( talk) 09:05, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
"More recently, some English speakers hypercorrect and attempt to employ the Spanish lisp"
What a retarded piece of information. What is "the Spanish lisp"? A lisp is "a speech impediment in which a person misarticulates sibilants ([s], [z], [ts], [dz]), ([ʃ], [ʒ], [tʃ], [dʒ]).". How is the Spanish sound /θ/ misarticulated in that name? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.146.69.224 ( talk) 19:20, 23 May 2017 (UTC)
Cádiz is from Arabic قادس (Qādis), from Latin Gades Bompanigcc ( talk) 08:29, 3 March 2023 (UTC)