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Please refer to his own site. You don't use those blasted dots as much in Britain thank you very much.
Also: the link in the first reference is totally broken. That's your headache.
Not that it's an important article by any means but still! A model??? I only know one German model [1] Axel Herman but I think we can safely say looking at him that Germany doesn't employ models who look like CJ DM, come on did he write this himself??? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.138.85.232 ( talk) 18:39, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
What or who is "Karpov's De"? Myrvin ( talk) 21:45, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
I know he mentioned his real last name on an episode of eggheads so shouldn't that be mentioned somewhere on this page? JohnnyRed2011 ( talk) 14:08, 28 January 2011 (UTC)--Johnny Red 14:21, 28 January 2011 (UTC)
Unfortunately, "De Mooi" does not translate to "the beautiful". In order for it to translate to "the beautiful", it would have to be "De Mooie". "De Mooi" as such does not mean anything in combination, even though both words separately translate to the and beautiful. 80.101.33.121 ( talk) 18:15, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
Yes, it doesn't mean 'handsome man', either. It's bullshit. Did he write this article himself? BearAllen ( talk) 22:55, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
Not that it's important, but I've changed it to be a little more accurate. If anyone wants to word it a little better they can. If they know how to use IPA they could also point out he doesn't pronounce it like the Dutch word he claims it to be either. Not even close. BearAllen ( talk) 23:06, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
Bullshit? I disagree: I strongly doubt that names should be treated quite as literally as is done here. If it isn't strictly grammatically correct (and indeed it doesn't appear to be by todays standards), the man has his etymology straight and I say that's all that counts. Basically, The Van Dale Dutch-English and English-Dutch dictionaries both assert that 'mooi' translates as 'handsome' and vice versa. 'Mooi' also translates as beautiful, so the current text is downright wrong. Whether the declination-'e' should have been added for grammatical correctness is debatable for another reason: "De Mooi" is an actual Dutch surname and "De Mooie" isn't, at least not according to the rather comprehensive Dutch phone book @ http://www.detelefoongids.nl. I for one had no problems at all recognizing the meaning, although in my opinion, the man is not all *that* handsome :P LRataplan ( talk) 01:40, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
It does not, in any way, translate as 'handsome man'. That's what's bullshit, and to have it in the text is just incorrect. — Preceding unsigned comment added by BearAllen ( talk • contribs) 06:13, 6 August 2011 (UTC)
I'm wth LRataplan on this. It seems not just nitpicky, but wrong to suggest that de Mooi should be translated as "the beautiful" rather than "handsome".
http://www.detelefoongids.nl/ currently returns 126 results for "de Mooi" (and 1,175 for "de Mooij") btw. I can't see an obvious reason why this is so different from the results at http://www.cbgfamilienamen.nl/ .
Ml66uk2 ( talk) 22:08, 22 September 2016 (UTC)
There is far too much conjecture about the whole De Mooi/can he speak dutch business. Both assertions in the introduction are just bitchy conjecture. The handsome/beautiful thing is puerile. Mooi means either. And, as a 19 year old welsh male model, CJ would be more likely to choose beautiful anyway. As a 42 year old tv presenter he's a lot moer likely to say handsome, on air. As to the pronunciation business, one cannot assume that he watches the broadcast show. One cannot assume that his name was accurately conveyed to the announcer. One cannot assume which dialect of dutch he learned. Conjecture.
until there is actual public evidence of CJ communicating with a dutchman or a german, this entire argument is completely irrelevant and would be best struck from the record. I would settle for 'CJ claims to speak german and dutch, though no video evidence exists of his skill.
Plus both assertions are uncited, just jumping down to CJ's CV rather than eggheads episodes. The fact that he lived and worked in germany for 4 1/2 years is verifiable, and one can safely assume that he picked up some, especially with a background in dutch. Owing to the aforementioend lack of citation I can't go and find the episode in which CJ apparently thinks real words are fake. Without context the incident is irrelevant.
Christ. Anyway I would make the changes to the entry myself but I prefer to just opinionate bitchily. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.204.177.211 ( talk • contribs)
I'd question whether theres a need for a section on chess. I cant find him on the ECF Grading database and if its true that he was around 170 graded, then while he can play well, he's just a strong amateur. I dont see what chess based qualifications he had to become head of English chess but he's long gone from that post now and as far as I can tell, he didnt really do too much, apart from court controversy at a British Championship prize giving ceremony. Jkmaskell 20:03, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
The BBC claims that de Mooi appeared in court under his "real" name which suggests that he hasn't formally changed his name: does anyone have any evidence other than the autobiography to back up the claim that he has officially changed his name? ~dom Kaos~ ( talk) 14:13, 22 September 2016 (UTC)
This article states he changed his name by deed poll, it is dated 2013. Sport and politics ( talk) 14:19, 22 September 2016 (UTC)
I'm happy to be argued down, but I'm not convinced that's a reliable source - plus I suspect that the anonymous writer is simply repeating what de Mooi told him/her. Having said that, I'm not certain what would constitute a reliable source in this situation ~dom Kaos~ ( talk) 19:22, 22 September 2016 (UTC)
The story about him possibly killing a man was always referenced with a Daily Telegraph article.
https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=CJ_de_Mooi&diff=next&oldid=679807419
It's odd he now just traces his troubles back to here. William Avery ( talk) 09:46, 17 December 2016 (UTC)
So, the reference in this article came directly from the Telegraph article, which seems to have quoted his own autobiography. The claim in today's Telegraph – that "...a lot of the press and a lot of the police investigation seems to have been because of what somebody else wrote about me on Wikipedia - literally.... It states a lot of personal information about me that is completely wrong - somebody wrote this about me on Wikipedia" – does not seem to bear close scrutiny. Ghmyrtle ( talk) 09:52, 17 December 2016 (UTC)... De Mooi, one of the five regular panellists on the popular BBC quiz show, said he punched a man who approached him with a knife, then threw him into a canal in Amsterdam in 1988. In an extract from his autobiography, he wrote: "He caught me on the wrong day and I just snapped." The 45-year-old former rent boy added: "I fully suspect I killed him. I've no idea what happened to him."
All the material removed from the article in these edits yesterday was sourced from reliable published sources (except that the sources use the term "real name" rather than "birth name", which I've now corrected). Per WP:BLP:
All quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged must be explicitly attributed to a reliable, published source, which is usually done with an inline citation. Contentious material about living persons (or, in some cases, recently deceased) that is unsourced or poorly sourced – whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable – should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion.
In this case, all the material "challenged or likely to be challenged" that is now in the article is, so far as I can see, "explicitly attributed to a reliable, published source". Ghmyrtle ( talk) 10:22, 17 December 2016 (UTC)
Please see his autobiography here [2] which looks like a confession of at least manslaughter. I'll try to get a better quote - google books said I looked at that page too many times. Why was I looking for this? From Benedictus, Leo (7 September 2015). "Will Egghead CJ de Mooi regret admitting he might have killed somebody?". The Guardian. Retrieved December 17, 2016. I can copy this quote:
I was searching for those exact words in his autobiography. I didn't find the exact words, maybe the Google book is a different edition (?), but what I did find cited above is very close in substance. Rough transcription from the Google books link above.
BTW, our first line says the Joseph Connaught name is erroneous. We don't have a source for that. I see two sources that pretty much say that that is his real name. I'll include them here shortly. Smallbones( smalltalk) 18:50, 17 December 2016 (UTC)
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First I'd like to say that I have some sympathy for the article subject, but that doesn't mean I believe everything he says, or approve of all actions he may have done. The original thing that brought me here was the news article that said he released a video saying that Wikkipedia really messed up this article. In those cases, I general feel that including this is appropriate, per WP:Selfpub (other people might call it the "right of response" by that tends to confuse things.) Text and a ref on the video I came about was already in the article. I think the video itself does a much better job than any text could ever do to show his objections, and help the reader decide whether Wikipedia messed up.
Text from the top video was also included, with the video itself used for the citation (I can find a better citation, but definitely want to include the video as well). This video may well be the more important one, but I have to say that IMHO the story he gives is only completely believable in terms of his subjective passion rather than strict facts (e.g. the dates and ages he gives strike me as improbable or contradictory). The reader should know this by judging for himself. A few quotes can't give the full story.
I've just reviewed WP:YT and the things it links to. I don't think it applies, except for the rule-of-thumb to be careful with this type of material. There is no question that this is *not a copyright infringement*, de Mooi recorded it, uploaded it, has his name on it, and it has been mention and attributed in reliable sources. None of the rules in WP:Elno or WP:ELNEVER apply (yes I double checked all of them). It appears to be the perfect self pub video in terms of those rules.
But yes we do have to be careful. Why are these videos so good? They show the person himself giving his own story about deeply personal issues. If you had a choice between reading our article or just seeing the videos, I'd say - the article is more objective, but the videos give you more of a feel (and much more subjective info) for the real person. But we don't have to choose - we should include both text and the videos. It improves the article greatly.
The question about including it in the body of the article or in the external links section. The template External media has been around forever. It states that it should be used in the body of the article - where you would put the same media if it weren't copyrighted (this goes way, way back). WP:EL specifically mentions this template in footnote 2. We definitely can include the material in the body - does it improve the article? Absolutely, while you're reading the text and wondering "did he really say that?" you can just click the video and see for yourself.
As I said, I like to include these "Wikipedia messed up" videos in the articles. They tell a huge amount about the subject. Please see the one in the article Ice-T if I haven't convinced you. Smallbones( smalltalk) 02:50, 18 December 2016 (UTC)
CJ: The Autobiography of CJ De Mooi: My Journey From the Streets to the Screens was published on Amazon on 3 September 2015. On 7 September 2015, the Daily Telegraph published I think I killed a man, says Eggheads' CJ de Mooi with the words "He caught me on the wrong day and I just snapped... I fully suspect I killed him. I've no idea what happened to him." Now here's the funny thing. I've just downloaded the full e-book from Amazon and it does not contain these words. It describes the canal incident on page 72 as follows: "I completely snapped, dropped the phone and flew at him in fury... He'd tried, however meekly, to mug me at knifepoint and I was just defending myself. Of course, this is ludicrous as the gentlest of slaps would have got rid of him. Once unarmed, he'd hardly be a threat to anyone else. But my assault continued until I half-punched, half-pushed him into the canal. Trembling with rage and with fists still tightly clenched, I'm ashamed to say I walked away. I didn't give this sorry creature another thought." No mention of "I fully suspect I killed him. I've no idea what happened to him." This leads to an interesting question. Has the text of the e-book been modified since the controversy of September 2015? The media was adamant that the words "I fully suspect I killed him. I've no idea what happened to him." appeared in the autobiography. It did not come from the version of the Wikipedia article prior to 7 September 2015, and was added in this edit with a cite to the Telegraph article.-- ♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 06:09, 18 December 2016 (UTC)
The talk page now has multiple sections about the same issues, where people are just repeating what has already been discussed. The points about the discrepancies in the quotes and his "real" name being an error, and the relationship between content here and media reports, were all discussed only yesterday in the sections immediately above, and more or less clarified. I and others have already gone to the trouble of tracing the history of some of the additions to the article and seeing whether WP original research or the media seem to be the source for claims about the Amsterdam incident and his real name. Just to repeat them myself, albeit in bullet points:
The subject has complained about all three things, and appears to be blaming WP for the errors. He may well be right about that in some respects, if not entirely. Again, any information that is contentious needs to be removed from this page, and that includes the claim about his real name. This is basic BLP stuff. N-HH talk/ edits 10:51, 18 December 2016 (UTC)
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Tho he has apparently said that he has been living with AIDS since the 80s, this is to all intents and purposes impossible. No-one with what is the end stage of an HIV infection (known as AIDS) competes and finishes marathons. HIV, tho, is treatable with daily medication, thankfully, and there are plenty of people leading full lives who have survived since the 80s. Clearly, CJ is one of those. He may well be very ill now, clearly he has had a whole heap of serious issues to deal with. I wish him well. Boscaswell talk 02:13, 23 April 2019 (UTC)
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Please refer to his own site. You don't use those blasted dots as much in Britain thank you very much.
Also: the link in the first reference is totally broken. That's your headache.
Not that it's an important article by any means but still! A model??? I only know one German model [1] Axel Herman but I think we can safely say looking at him that Germany doesn't employ models who look like CJ DM, come on did he write this himself??? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.138.85.232 ( talk) 18:39, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
What or who is "Karpov's De"? Myrvin ( talk) 21:45, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
I know he mentioned his real last name on an episode of eggheads so shouldn't that be mentioned somewhere on this page? JohnnyRed2011 ( talk) 14:08, 28 January 2011 (UTC)--Johnny Red 14:21, 28 January 2011 (UTC)
Unfortunately, "De Mooi" does not translate to "the beautiful". In order for it to translate to "the beautiful", it would have to be "De Mooie". "De Mooi" as such does not mean anything in combination, even though both words separately translate to the and beautiful. 80.101.33.121 ( talk) 18:15, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
Yes, it doesn't mean 'handsome man', either. It's bullshit. Did he write this article himself? BearAllen ( talk) 22:55, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
Not that it's important, but I've changed it to be a little more accurate. If anyone wants to word it a little better they can. If they know how to use IPA they could also point out he doesn't pronounce it like the Dutch word he claims it to be either. Not even close. BearAllen ( talk) 23:06, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
Bullshit? I disagree: I strongly doubt that names should be treated quite as literally as is done here. If it isn't strictly grammatically correct (and indeed it doesn't appear to be by todays standards), the man has his etymology straight and I say that's all that counts. Basically, The Van Dale Dutch-English and English-Dutch dictionaries both assert that 'mooi' translates as 'handsome' and vice versa. 'Mooi' also translates as beautiful, so the current text is downright wrong. Whether the declination-'e' should have been added for grammatical correctness is debatable for another reason: "De Mooi" is an actual Dutch surname and "De Mooie" isn't, at least not according to the rather comprehensive Dutch phone book @ http://www.detelefoongids.nl. I for one had no problems at all recognizing the meaning, although in my opinion, the man is not all *that* handsome :P LRataplan ( talk) 01:40, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
It does not, in any way, translate as 'handsome man'. That's what's bullshit, and to have it in the text is just incorrect. — Preceding unsigned comment added by BearAllen ( talk • contribs) 06:13, 6 August 2011 (UTC)
I'm wth LRataplan on this. It seems not just nitpicky, but wrong to suggest that de Mooi should be translated as "the beautiful" rather than "handsome".
http://www.detelefoongids.nl/ currently returns 126 results for "de Mooi" (and 1,175 for "de Mooij") btw. I can't see an obvious reason why this is so different from the results at http://www.cbgfamilienamen.nl/ .
Ml66uk2 ( talk) 22:08, 22 September 2016 (UTC)
There is far too much conjecture about the whole De Mooi/can he speak dutch business. Both assertions in the introduction are just bitchy conjecture. The handsome/beautiful thing is puerile. Mooi means either. And, as a 19 year old welsh male model, CJ would be more likely to choose beautiful anyway. As a 42 year old tv presenter he's a lot moer likely to say handsome, on air. As to the pronunciation business, one cannot assume that he watches the broadcast show. One cannot assume that his name was accurately conveyed to the announcer. One cannot assume which dialect of dutch he learned. Conjecture.
until there is actual public evidence of CJ communicating with a dutchman or a german, this entire argument is completely irrelevant and would be best struck from the record. I would settle for 'CJ claims to speak german and dutch, though no video evidence exists of his skill.
Plus both assertions are uncited, just jumping down to CJ's CV rather than eggheads episodes. The fact that he lived and worked in germany for 4 1/2 years is verifiable, and one can safely assume that he picked up some, especially with a background in dutch. Owing to the aforementioend lack of citation I can't go and find the episode in which CJ apparently thinks real words are fake. Without context the incident is irrelevant.
Christ. Anyway I would make the changes to the entry myself but I prefer to just opinionate bitchily. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.204.177.211 ( talk • contribs)
I'd question whether theres a need for a section on chess. I cant find him on the ECF Grading database and if its true that he was around 170 graded, then while he can play well, he's just a strong amateur. I dont see what chess based qualifications he had to become head of English chess but he's long gone from that post now and as far as I can tell, he didnt really do too much, apart from court controversy at a British Championship prize giving ceremony. Jkmaskell 20:03, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
The BBC claims that de Mooi appeared in court under his "real" name which suggests that he hasn't formally changed his name: does anyone have any evidence other than the autobiography to back up the claim that he has officially changed his name? ~dom Kaos~ ( talk) 14:13, 22 September 2016 (UTC)
This article states he changed his name by deed poll, it is dated 2013. Sport and politics ( talk) 14:19, 22 September 2016 (UTC)
I'm happy to be argued down, but I'm not convinced that's a reliable source - plus I suspect that the anonymous writer is simply repeating what de Mooi told him/her. Having said that, I'm not certain what would constitute a reliable source in this situation ~dom Kaos~ ( talk) 19:22, 22 September 2016 (UTC)
The story about him possibly killing a man was always referenced with a Daily Telegraph article.
https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=CJ_de_Mooi&diff=next&oldid=679807419
It's odd he now just traces his troubles back to here. William Avery ( talk) 09:46, 17 December 2016 (UTC)
So, the reference in this article came directly from the Telegraph article, which seems to have quoted his own autobiography. The claim in today's Telegraph – that "...a lot of the press and a lot of the police investigation seems to have been because of what somebody else wrote about me on Wikipedia - literally.... It states a lot of personal information about me that is completely wrong - somebody wrote this about me on Wikipedia" – does not seem to bear close scrutiny. Ghmyrtle ( talk) 09:52, 17 December 2016 (UTC)... De Mooi, one of the five regular panellists on the popular BBC quiz show, said he punched a man who approached him with a knife, then threw him into a canal in Amsterdam in 1988. In an extract from his autobiography, he wrote: "He caught me on the wrong day and I just snapped." The 45-year-old former rent boy added: "I fully suspect I killed him. I've no idea what happened to him."
All the material removed from the article in these edits yesterday was sourced from reliable published sources (except that the sources use the term "real name" rather than "birth name", which I've now corrected). Per WP:BLP:
All quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged must be explicitly attributed to a reliable, published source, which is usually done with an inline citation. Contentious material about living persons (or, in some cases, recently deceased) that is unsourced or poorly sourced – whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable – should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion.
In this case, all the material "challenged or likely to be challenged" that is now in the article is, so far as I can see, "explicitly attributed to a reliable, published source". Ghmyrtle ( talk) 10:22, 17 December 2016 (UTC)
Please see his autobiography here [2] which looks like a confession of at least manslaughter. I'll try to get a better quote - google books said I looked at that page too many times. Why was I looking for this? From Benedictus, Leo (7 September 2015). "Will Egghead CJ de Mooi regret admitting he might have killed somebody?". The Guardian. Retrieved December 17, 2016. I can copy this quote:
I was searching for those exact words in his autobiography. I didn't find the exact words, maybe the Google book is a different edition (?), but what I did find cited above is very close in substance. Rough transcription from the Google books link above.
BTW, our first line says the Joseph Connaught name is erroneous. We don't have a source for that. I see two sources that pretty much say that that is his real name. I'll include them here shortly. Smallbones( smalltalk) 18:50, 17 December 2016 (UTC)
External videos | |
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First I'd like to say that I have some sympathy for the article subject, but that doesn't mean I believe everything he says, or approve of all actions he may have done. The original thing that brought me here was the news article that said he released a video saying that Wikkipedia really messed up this article. In those cases, I general feel that including this is appropriate, per WP:Selfpub (other people might call it the "right of response" by that tends to confuse things.) Text and a ref on the video I came about was already in the article. I think the video itself does a much better job than any text could ever do to show his objections, and help the reader decide whether Wikipedia messed up.
Text from the top video was also included, with the video itself used for the citation (I can find a better citation, but definitely want to include the video as well). This video may well be the more important one, but I have to say that IMHO the story he gives is only completely believable in terms of his subjective passion rather than strict facts (e.g. the dates and ages he gives strike me as improbable or contradictory). The reader should know this by judging for himself. A few quotes can't give the full story.
I've just reviewed WP:YT and the things it links to. I don't think it applies, except for the rule-of-thumb to be careful with this type of material. There is no question that this is *not a copyright infringement*, de Mooi recorded it, uploaded it, has his name on it, and it has been mention and attributed in reliable sources. None of the rules in WP:Elno or WP:ELNEVER apply (yes I double checked all of them). It appears to be the perfect self pub video in terms of those rules.
But yes we do have to be careful. Why are these videos so good? They show the person himself giving his own story about deeply personal issues. If you had a choice between reading our article or just seeing the videos, I'd say - the article is more objective, but the videos give you more of a feel (and much more subjective info) for the real person. But we don't have to choose - we should include both text and the videos. It improves the article greatly.
The question about including it in the body of the article or in the external links section. The template External media has been around forever. It states that it should be used in the body of the article - where you would put the same media if it weren't copyrighted (this goes way, way back). WP:EL specifically mentions this template in footnote 2. We definitely can include the material in the body - does it improve the article? Absolutely, while you're reading the text and wondering "did he really say that?" you can just click the video and see for yourself.
As I said, I like to include these "Wikipedia messed up" videos in the articles. They tell a huge amount about the subject. Please see the one in the article Ice-T if I haven't convinced you. Smallbones( smalltalk) 02:50, 18 December 2016 (UTC)
CJ: The Autobiography of CJ De Mooi: My Journey From the Streets to the Screens was published on Amazon on 3 September 2015. On 7 September 2015, the Daily Telegraph published I think I killed a man, says Eggheads' CJ de Mooi with the words "He caught me on the wrong day and I just snapped... I fully suspect I killed him. I've no idea what happened to him." Now here's the funny thing. I've just downloaded the full e-book from Amazon and it does not contain these words. It describes the canal incident on page 72 as follows: "I completely snapped, dropped the phone and flew at him in fury... He'd tried, however meekly, to mug me at knifepoint and I was just defending myself. Of course, this is ludicrous as the gentlest of slaps would have got rid of him. Once unarmed, he'd hardly be a threat to anyone else. But my assault continued until I half-punched, half-pushed him into the canal. Trembling with rage and with fists still tightly clenched, I'm ashamed to say I walked away. I didn't give this sorry creature another thought." No mention of "I fully suspect I killed him. I've no idea what happened to him." This leads to an interesting question. Has the text of the e-book been modified since the controversy of September 2015? The media was adamant that the words "I fully suspect I killed him. I've no idea what happened to him." appeared in the autobiography. It did not come from the version of the Wikipedia article prior to 7 September 2015, and was added in this edit with a cite to the Telegraph article.-- ♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 06:09, 18 December 2016 (UTC)
The talk page now has multiple sections about the same issues, where people are just repeating what has already been discussed. The points about the discrepancies in the quotes and his "real" name being an error, and the relationship between content here and media reports, were all discussed only yesterday in the sections immediately above, and more or less clarified. I and others have already gone to the trouble of tracing the history of some of the additions to the article and seeing whether WP original research or the media seem to be the source for claims about the Amsterdam incident and his real name. Just to repeat them myself, albeit in bullet points:
The subject has complained about all three things, and appears to be blaming WP for the errors. He may well be right about that in some respects, if not entirely. Again, any information that is contentious needs to be removed from this page, and that includes the claim about his real name. This is basic BLP stuff. N-HH talk/ edits 10:51, 18 December 2016 (UTC)
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Tho he has apparently said that he has been living with AIDS since the 80s, this is to all intents and purposes impossible. No-one with what is the end stage of an HIV infection (known as AIDS) competes and finishes marathons. HIV, tho, is treatable with daily medication, thankfully, and there are plenty of people leading full lives who have survived since the 80s. Clearly, CJ is one of those. He may well be very ill now, clearly he has had a whole heap of serious issues to deal with. I wish him well. Boscaswell talk 02:13, 23 April 2019 (UTC)