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A lot of the "Bushisms" floating around on the internet actually appear to have originally spoken by Dan Quayle and subsequently misattributed to Bush.
So is there any reliable source which differentiates "Bushisms" from "Quayleisms" and how can we be sure that all the quotes attribured here to Bush really were his words ? 80.229.222.48 20:24, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
Why is "more of our imports come from overseas" characterised as a Bushism?
Presumably this is considered a stupid remark because all imports come from overseas, but that is a lazy assumption which is not always correct. Would an import into the USA from Canada or Mexico be considered to have come from overseas? If Switzerland imports something from Germany, is that from overseas?
129.230.248.1 12:47, 26 January 2007 (UTC)Tirailleur
Why is the "internets" quote not included in here? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.242.29.27 ( talk) 14:08, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
For one, why is the dicussion page longer then the actual article? Two I don't think the "what they mean part" is nessary.
dennis kussinich 08 19:57 11/24/06
Some of us are more assured by linkable signatures,... & are you aware of the impersonation screenname debate? Spelling?
I've noticed that some people are pointing-out that George's comments conflict with those of Bob Gates. But, the { Defense Secretary} nomination could not go to Laura, Tony Snow, Barney_(dog), Miss_Beazley_(dog),...
Conversely, those who complain about his scandals, including myself, need to remember that no one else would accept the job, with Don Rumsfeld's legacy. It does seem that Mr. Gates is unanimous in committee { Armed Services Committee},...
< http://seattlepi.com/national/1110AP_Former_President_Bush.html >;
"A true measure of a man is how you handle victory and how you handle defeat, so in '94 Floridians chose to rehire the governor. They took note of his worthy [actual audio sounds like 'defeated'] opponent, who showed with not only words but with actions what decency he had,"
George Herbert Walker Bush, Monday, fourth, December.
That quote compares Lawton Mainor Chiles to John Ellis Bush.
Later in that article:
He also talked about his recent friendship with former President Clinton. He recalled a political cartoon showing his son, the president, opposing gay marriage and then walking into a room and finding his father on a sofa with Clinton's arm around him, prompting him to shout, "Dad! What are you doing?"
"(Clinton) cut it out of the paper and said, 'Don't you think we ought to cool it, George?'" Bush said.
Has George, the First, replaced Monica Samille Lewinsky? Is that a Bushism, or, merely, very odd?
Thank You.
[[ hopiakuta | [[ [[%c2%a1]] [[%c2%bf]] [[ %7e%7e%7e%7e ]] -]] 01:46, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
Why no section for Criticism with the various criticisms of "bushisms" with Bush's verbal flubs compared to previous Presidents, and the additional (excessive?) attention paid to them for political purposes?
Eugene Volokh's webpage has myriad links criticising Weisberg's column, for instance.
66.245.144.38 04:39, 24 January 2007 (UTC)No User.
They went like this:
"We must help with the democratization of Afganistan,Iraq and other African countries"
"The problem is that,if you are paying attention,that,if Saddam still would have been in power,if he would have been the President of the US,the world would have been a lot better."
"Wow,Brazil is big!"(after looking at the map of Brazil) Dimts 09:44, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
I find Bushisms as funny as the next dissident, but should this article belong in Wiktionary and not so much on Wikipedia? After all, it is more or less just a definition of Bushism.. 67.142.130.40 04:06, 22 February 2007 (UTC)JSTo
I've reinstated the explanations of the various Bushisms that ILike2BeAnonymous removed two months ago with the summary:
Other famous Bushisms - Remove "helpful" explanations which really are not needed, tend to ruin the jokes and dumb down this section. These quotes stand on their own.
I was awarded a barnstar by another user for the original addition. His reasoning was:
It would not have occurred to me (or anyone else, apparently!) to put these explanations in, but not only do they help non-native speakers, they also make the entry more encyclopedic.
My original thought was the non-native speakers, but I agree with his addition, which is included in the current HTML comment of the section:
The explanations add encyclopedic content to a section that is otherwise pure humor (Wikipedia Is Not a joke book). They're also helpful for non-English speakers. Please do not delete them without discussion on the talk page.
Also note that halfway between deletion and restoration, a comment was added to this talk page asking a question that is answered by the very descriptions ILike2BeAnonymous thought were "not needed[...]and dumb down this section. These quotes stand on their own."
I assume that ILike2BeAnonymous thought his edit would improve the article, but disagree with him for the above reasons. Please don't remove the explanations again without good reasoning and discussion.
-- FunnyMan 21:40, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
Since I'm about to sign off for the evening (and may forget to return) I'm going to lay this in the hands of the community by putting it on Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Language_and_linguistics.
The issue is a set of explanations of the Bushisms listed in the article, which were created by me. I (and Septegram, who awarded me a barnstar for them) believe that these explanations add encyclopedic content to the article, in addition to clarifying them for non-native English speakers who may visit the article. ILike2BeAnonymous and, recently, The Fat Man Who Never Came Back believe that the explanations are not useful and clutter the article (ILike2BeAnonymous's exact wording was "dumb down"). What do others think?
-- FunnyMan 03:31, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
Your narrative is a commentary/explanation/analysis of the bushism. My opinion is that Funnyman's commentary may violate Wiki does not publish original thought. Specifically: "Original research refers to material that is not attributable to a reliable, published source. This includes unpublished facts, arguments, ideas, statements, and neologisms; and any unpublished analysis or synthesis of published material that appears to advance a position. Material added to articles must be directly and explicitly supported by the cited sources."
Also check out Original Research: "Material counts as original research if it: introduces a theory, method of solution, or any other original idea; introduces an analysis, synthesis, explanation, or interpretation of published facts, opinions, or arguments without attributing that analysis, synthesis, explanation, or interpretation to a reliable source who has published the material in relation to the topic of the article" Jonawiki 22:39, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
AFAIK, "Bushism" is a term that came about during the term of George W Bush, not his father. The mention of the latter should be deleted from the intro. Tempshill 08:14, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
-- The Fat Man Who Never Came Back 04:57, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
(Unindent) I suppose it has not already included GHWB references (yet) for a few reasons. 1). I have not yet had the time -- I am traveling constantly and my sources are at home; 2). GHWB is not in power and thus less interesting to discuss or malign (and after all, this is mostly a maligning term); 3). Wikipedia is edited chiefly by young people, many who have a stronger knowledge or interest in current popular culture and focus on what can be found on the internet than serious research into articles. (Evidence: you almost never see newspaper articles cited that are more than about 3 years old, unless they are readily and freely available on the web through a google search. In essence, if it isn't found in Google, it does not exist.) One thing though, per wikipedia rules we cannot simply proclaim that the term refers primarily to the son. We must cite something else (verifiable, reliable) that says so, particularly in comparison to father.
The term really has a long genesis. Originally, Reagan's policies were branded by his opponents as "Reaganism". It was generally used in a negative way, though the Reagan whitehouse aides sometimes turned it around and appropriated it in a positive way. Sometimes (very rarely), the things that Reagan would say would also be called "Reaganism(s)". But these were almost always quips or assertions that displayed his confidence and power. When he left office, GHWB was generally seen as a variation or an extension of the Reagan Presidency. But, where Reagan was the Great Communicator, Bush Sr, stumbled and said silly things, which became "Bushims". So it was originally almost a direct comparison of the communication skills that Reagan had vs the communication inneptitude Bush displayed. In Sr's day, the term was exclusively his and, really, much more prominent in the regular press than it currently is for his son. Since his son came out, the term has been borrowed, reinvigorated or reinstanted or something and applied to him.
My "crusade" as someone called it is considered peculiar. I don't think so. The problem is that this is a "contemporary popular culture" thing. In less than three years, the son will then be as irrelevant as the father is now and the term for both men will fall into equal disfavor. There is no cottage industry or return on investment in casting aspersions toward people not in power, and Jr is currently in power, but not much longer. However, the article will remain in place for years and years, though with less and less attention. In the interest of a valid and strong encyclopedia, I say do not get all excited about the latest faddish trend and stick with things that will have long-term value. In that respect, I'm not sure this article has ANY value, but if it does, it should be complete (and thus less biased, though giving a term that is used to malign someone such attention is, inherently the strong interest of ax grinders). -- Blue Tie 14:59, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
-- Blue Tie 03:58, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
Whether or not it technically qualifies as a Bushism, this is a stupid revert war. The man misspeaks on hundreds of occasions and makes enormous gaffes--if the incident is small enough that it's provoking an arguement, then it's most likely an easily droppable example, if only for the reason that there are much stronger examples out there.
IMO, the strongest examples used for this article would fit the following criteria
First, while I do believe it's a bushism, I don't see why it's a great candidate for this article. I don't believe that bushisms must have double sources to stay in the article, and we don't remove unsourced items on site--you can put a fact tag in if something needs a source, especially if removing it becomes a topic of some debate as it did here. That said, unless a case can be made for why this bushism, because I don't find it funny, it isn't well-sourced as a bushism, and it isn't particularly notable--this seems like a weak bushism to include.
And as for the revert war itself--this is petty stuff people. First, discussion shouldn't be conducted in summaries anyway--explain the edit, but discuss here, that's what a talk page is for. And once it's been reverted back more than once--if you haven't come to the talk page yet, come to the talk page and take a break from that particular edit, especially if it isn't urgent. A revert war over a Bushism? C'mon people. Let's avoid this stuff. Miss Mondegreen | Talk 09:47, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
I also think we should add a section for HW's bushisms. We could use this as a good starting source. Btw, that site also has a great bushisms quiz where you can see if you can tell poppy's bushisms from dubya's. Miss Mondegreen | Talk 09:47, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
This is following the above discussion "recent revert war over troop quote" and comments made by
User:Miss Mondegreen.
Blogs are widely not acceptable sources on Wikipedia, or for any encyclopedia for their sake, as all editors here should know.
At least the subsection "Other Bushisms" ought to be deleted per WP policies. Right now, we have primary sources for the existence of the quotes themselves (which is fine so far) and partisan blogs/magazines/stuff to support that they actually are "Bushisms" (not fine).
As for the remainder of this intensely partisan article, can it be explained how a quote from Bush can "encyclopedically" become commonly known as a "Bushism"? Is it only by being mentioned by a liberal blog or book as such? Are there reliable unPOVed sources that are commonly known to define what is a Bushism and what is not? --
Childhood's End
13:57, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
First, I'm going to argue a policy point with you. The web has evolved. Anyone can be a self-published whatever, but there is a difference between using a middle-school students blog, and a NYTimes reporter's blog. The NYTimes puts stuff online that doesn't always see print or a later version sees print and newspapers and magazines etc. are using the web as a way to produce more material.
That aside, I know these policies well, but I don't see how our article violates them. In re partisan sources, The Washington Post? Time? Telegraph? Slate? PBS?
This article has a NPOV--it isn't about Bush, either Bush, and really focuses on the particularities of what a Bushism is. It should more so, and it should have better or more sources. We should have more on the evolution of the phrase and more on the specifics of the meaning, and more on the types of Bushism, in addition to a section for HW Bushisms. And having looked at the sources, I see some that I'd like to replace with better sources. This article certainly needs work--it's a good start class article, it's not yet a GA article IMO.
But we have verified, non partisan sources. And not every source will reflect Bush (either) in a good light, or be non-partisan (I certainly can't speak about the authors' political leanings), but it doesn't matter. The articles or authors may not be neutral about Bush, but they don't have to be. This is an article about Bushism, and for the majority of the sourcing, we are simply looking for an article about whatever gaffe the President or the former President made, so we have a source not only for a quote, but a source for it as a gaffe, as a Bushism. An article about the Bushism shows that the Bushism itself is notable--not every one is written about, and we're going to look for ones that hopefully discuss the impact of the Bushism (if there was one), etc.
""Fairly good" is true only within a certain POV context aint it? As you somewhat said, we are unlikely to have a non-partisan reliable source that can help us define what is a bushism and what is not."
Actually, all that MarsRover said was that we were unlikely to have "the International Symposium on Bushisms to give us the formal definition". You seem to be the one making this about partisanship, when it really, really isn't. Look at the sources and external links--I'll admit that not all of them are good sources, but there are a lot of very good, non-partisan sources. Btw, Bush and Gore went on SNL for the 2000 election and they both mocked themselves--Gore mocked his stiffness and the whole lockbox thing, and Bush mocked some of his more infamous Bushisms, and, I believe he used the word "Strategery" as well, which is of course not his own Bushism.
I'd replace some of our sources--they aren't all good. But the arguement that we don't have any sources that meet WP policies just doesn't wash--and the arguement that this is somehow a partisan word also doesn't wash.
I'll add the sections I was talking about as soon as I get back in town (I can't do much until then), and I'll fix the "ehh" references then.
Other than this being a start-class article that needs work, I don't see what the issue is. Could you clarify now that I've hopefully responded to some of your points? Miss Mondegreen | Talk 10:07, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
I thought it was agreed (see archive of talk page) that Bush's "I'm the decider" quote is not a Bushism since it is correct English? Why is it back? nadav 23:33, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
"a word, phrase, or other grammatical configuration unique to the style of President George W. Bush while speaking publicly and usually extemporaneously."
such as World Encarta? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Nadav1 ( talk • contribs) 19:45, 4 April 2007 (UTC).
The Characteristics section has been with the article for a long time, and seems to cover the range of Bushism phenomena very well. However I am concerned that there is no attribution to a secondary source for this compendium of Bushism properties. This has a slight whiff of WP:SYN. More crucially, I am concerned that there is no quoted source for the precise definition of Bushism. Even though it may be well-known, there really should be a definition from a secondary source. Note that there may be disagreement among sources; for example, Jacob Weisberg of Slate defines it quite generally:
a comment doesn't have to be flubbed or ungrammatical to qualify as a 'Bushism.' From the beginning, I've included in these anthologies statements by the president that while indisputably correct in terms of sentence structure and noun-verb agreement are nonetheless amusing or terrifying, depending on your perspective, because of what they reveal about the inner man. (To the top of the heap in this edition: "I trust God speaks through me.") In such cases, the concern is that the president may in fact have said precisely what he did mean.
(Intro. to George W. Bushisms V: New Ways to Harm Our Country [2]) Does anyone here have a precisely stated definition taken from an ouside, reliable source? It would be a great addition to the article. nadav 08:37, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
Hey. A couple quick things first. Please remember to sign your posts in the future using four tildes (~~~~). Second, if it's been a while on a talk page since a discussion has been active, it's generally a good idea to start a new section by clicking the plus button next to the "edit this page" button at the top of the page. You can still reply to comments earlier on the page, and refer to them and link to them and quote them, but it makes it easier to notice that you've commented and find your comments, and it keeps discussion linear. I had to use page diffs to figure out what you'd said and that made life a little complicated.
Now, about what you actually said:
"Sources please. And NOT Comedy Central of anything."
The article is dairly well-sourced if you look carefully, and there aren't any sources from Comedy Central unless someone's added something while I was out of town. The issue at hand is more sources for what acurately defines a bushism. But the quotes themselves, and the context that they were said in are very well sourced. That's not at all at issue here.
"Frankly, I don't think this article should exist. It's a wee bit... politically charged. It's not really encyclopedic either. Wikipedia is not some source of humor. If you want humor try Comedy Central."
I'm not sure why you think this article is politically charged, perhaps you could explain. The term is used both in a politically charged manner, often meanly, but it's also used in a friendly manner, and that's something that the article should expand upon. This article should, for example include some of the information about the Bush camp adapting the term "strategery".
Whether the term is politically charged or not, and whether it's funny or not isn't the point. The term is a part of the American vernacular, and it's well documented in multiple articles and books which makes it notable. We don't bypass our policies on inclusion because the issue at hand is politically charged or because the issue at hand is funny. Encylopedia's cover a wide range of topics, including funny ones and politically charged ones. Notability and verifiablity are our inclusion criteria and this article fits those two with ease.
What is an issue is if the article itself makes fun, or attempts to be funny, or takes a political standpoint, and I believe that it's presenting the information at hand neutrally. That does not mean that I think it's a good article. I think that it's a start class article--the bones are there, and the bones are sourced, but this article needs a lot more sources and a lot more information to really be a good article. Considering this includes information about a living person, and that it's a delicate topic, I'd make it a somewhat high priority to get this article to be at least a B class article.
Does that answer your concerns? If not, please expand upon them.
It seems that the term currently Bushism refers only to George W. Bush. The article itself refers only to George W. Bush quotes. The references to George H. W. are at least 15 years old, so I think any relationship to George H. W. Bush in the article should be made as past tense. -- However whatever 15:58, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
The BBC has called it "Bushism". However whatever 22:29, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
Quote from article
-- However whatever 12:22, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
This discussion is proving this article as a joke, yet again. The guy speaks millions of words per week in public, barely slips on a mere single one ("seventeen" instead of "nineteen seventy") and we are already arguing over whether this is worth of encyclopedic mention or not. This is just a sad page discrediting other reasonable Democrats.
"Never hate your ennemies. It affects your judgment." (The Godfather, Part III) --
Childhood's End
13:52, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
[restarting indent]
Childhood's end--you are the only person to make this discussion political, and many of us who are watching the article are working very hard to keep this article from becomming political. The fact of the matter is, is that the President, whomever the President may be is watched very closely. I think of a few other gaffes by normally very well spoken Presidents that are famous. They are notable, and therefore, by Wikipedia's standards, encyclopedic.
Now, this article is meant to explain a word in the English language. It is a linguistics article, though there are political overtones, on both sides of the aisle. All of that should be discussed and it's a failing of the article that it isn't.
Now, a lot of people don't understand what qualifies for inclusion in an article, and this happens in lots of articles that are either lists, or have self-contained lists within them. People assume that anything that fits the criteria should go on the list--that's why there are listcruft tags--it's a highly common problem. The issue at hand is that for something to go on the list, it has to fit every parameter of the list, and as the list is a selection, a series of examples, the item should either be the best possible that could be used to explain something, or it should be notable in and of itself. This is unusual--normally, only the topic of an article must fit Wikipedia's notability standards, and non-notable information is necessary in the article to explain the topic and give background information. Not so on most lists. The discussion we had, and the explanation of why something didn't belong in the article had little to do with the item itself, with Bushism, and nothing to do with politics. It had everything to do with how lists and articles in general are created and maintained on Wikipedia.
You're seeing demons where they're aren't any, your complaints are rarely on topic, and it's very tiring to be defending even mundane "no list-cruft" edits. Please, attempt to improve the article through discussion or work. Complaining (not on topic) about run-of-the-mill list cleaning doesn't help anyone, least of all you and your case.
Miss Mondegreen
talk 04:46, May 12 2007
Thank you for your suggestion. When you feel an article needs improvement, please feel free to make those changes. Wikipedia is a wiki, so anyone can edit almost any article by simply following the Edit this page link at the top. The Wikipedia community encourages you to be bold in updating pages. Don't worry too much about making honest mistakes — they're likely to be found and corrected quickly. If you're not sure how editing works, check out how to edit a page, or use the sandbox to try out your editing skills. New contributors are always welcome. You don't even need to log in (although there are many reasons why you might want to). Miss Mondegreen talk 22:28, May 13 2007
(reset indent) Do you even consider the criticisms made against this article?
Perhaps, only perhaps, will you find some interest in this Spinsanity article [4]: "As critics such as UCLA law professor Eugene Volokh have shown, that's the problem with Slate's series of "Bushisms (...). Slate editor Jacob Weisberg, has highlighted plenty of grammatical errors by the President, some of which are humorous or noteworthy. However, the series has also frequently taken the President's words out of context to make reasonable statements seem nonsensical, grammatically incorrect or even offensive. (...) There's nothing inherently wrong with making fun of the candidates, but even while engaging in satire, political journalists still have a responsibility to not mislead their audience. (...) These examples demonstrate that the magazine's efforts to mock Bush and Kerry for their supposed verbal missteps has led Slate to take quotes so far out of context as to essentially engage in outright dishonesty. Weisberg and Saletan seem so eager to find quotes that fit their established storylines that they don't pay enough attention to whether the examples are actually valid. Given Slate's prestige and influence, these columns matter. Even more disturbingly, in the introduction to the new "Bushisms" book, Weisberg takes his collected quotes as evidence of the President doesn't know much and doesn't care to learn. "Bush may look like a well-meaning dolt," the Slate editor writes. "On consideration, he's something far more dangerous: a dedicated fool."
No matter how notable this article is, I think it explains very reasonably why a list of Bushisms belongs in a magazine but not in an encyclopedia. This also points out very clearly that this Bushism affair is more about politics than linguistics, that it can be reasonably associated with Bush-hating, and that it can be injurious towards a living person, what a magazine or vanity book can perhaps afford, but not an encyclopedia. -- Childhood's End 14:15, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
I added in a reference regarding the White House claiming he said "a commander guy" rather then "the commander guy." I thought it would be fair to acknowledge that there have been numerous other sources that state he said that later. -- Pinkkeith 14:40, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
This article does not once mention the word diskembobulated, which George bush likes to use. 124.197.50.143 22:13, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
OK, I found a reference where Bush uses the word "discombobulated", but it appears that he is using the word correctly, although it is impossible to tell what he really meant when he said it. See the "disassemble" bushism in the article. It would not have been Bushism if he were not to define what he meant, which revealed that he really meant "dissemble". -- However whatever 14:23, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
I don't feel like this quote really fits with the scheme of the "bushisms"
"I don't need to remind you who al-Qaeda is. Al-Qaeda is the group that plot and planned and trained killers to come and kill people on our soil. The same bunch that is causing havoc in Iraq were the ones who came and murdered our citizens."
Its not perfect English by any means, but it seems to be more about the content which people find funny... maybe I am just missing the point of it. I assume what is amusing that WE are the bunch causing havoc in Iraq, but it seems pretty obvious that he was saying that al queda was causing problems in Iraq... which may not be correct or whatever, but I dont see any real structure errors here... P337 07:55, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
In short, bad definition. In long:
"Rarely is the question asked, is our children learning?" This looks more like a slip of the tongue... and does not meet the characteristics defined in the article.
"I know the human being and fish can coexist peacefully." This may be obvious or funny or whatever, but it is perfect linguistics. (Without researching it) I assume that this is pretty much what he meant to say... probably something about pollution.
"I'm honored to shake the hand of a brave Iraqi citizen who had his hand cut off by Saddam Hussein." Again... may be funny, but we assume the man has two hands. This one is kind of iffy because it IS redundant... but its more of a kind of a double-take sentence (if you know what I'm saying by that). I dont feel as though it fits with the characteristics defined in the article.
"Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we." As someone with an interest in network security, it is very common that to keep up with ways that other people can harm your network. This is a perfectly obvious sentence. Do we not want our leaders to be thinking about these things?
"Make no mistake about it, I understand how tough it is, sir. I talk to families who die." I feel this is the first example of a bushism that kind of actually meets the criteria defined. though i dont feel like it is a very GOOD example.
"Too many good docs are getting out of the business. Too many OB/GYNs aren't able to practice their love with women all across the country." This is definitely awkward... and strange... I dont see how it fits any of the characteristics... please explain.
"Families is where our nation finds hope, where wings take dream." Excellent example.
"I don't need to remind you who al-Qaeda is. Al-Qaeda is the group that plot and planned and trained killers to come and kill people on our soil. The same bunch that is causing havoc in Iraq were the ones who came and murdered our citizens." I wrote a whole paragraph on this one (above).
"We put in more troops to get to a position where we can be in some other place. The question is, who ought to make that decision? The Congress or the commanders? And as you know, my position is clear—I'm a commander guy." And finally this is not a page of stupid things GWB says. It is supposed to be about bushisms... this has nothing to do with a bushism. Either these need to be removed (or explain to me, because I may very well be confused about what a bushism is) or we need to redefine Bushism as something funny or stupid that GWB says.
I hope I am exhibiting a NPOV, and I want the others that view this page to be aware that I am completely uninterested in both parties... I just stumbled upon this page and was a little disappointed by what seems to be a heavy political bias. I would appreciate a reply from some of the people up there (and new of course). Maybe I should just remove these so people will actually have a discussion. If anyone needs these quotes I'm sure a quick search of "the google" for "funny bush quotes" will return all of them. P337 06:28, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
"A Bushism is any of a number of peculiar words, phrases, pronunciations, malapropisms, semantic or linguistic errors" (emphasis added)
Anything else?
Miss Mondegreen
talk 21:58, June 3 2007 (UTC)
First of all, thanks for clearing up that bit about wrecking, I was a little confused by that, but hey we all make mistakes. I have read what you said, and it is interesting the way you rationalized keeping that particular quote. First, this whole issue about wreaking havoc seems like quite a stretch to me, since to wreak means (loosely) to cause... no confusion there.
The part about his use of who doesn't seem like a problem to me. Its like saying, "I don't need to remind you who the World Wildlife Foundation is, They are the..." In both cases they are groups and groups can use that 'who' it seems.
Now about this plot/planned/killer part. I will admit that I didnt notice the "killers to come kill" thing. Now about the tenses not matching up, I am not going to try and defend any of that, like I said I know it wasn't perfect English. but I thought it took a little more than that to become a Bushism. If that is the case then why are there two other sentences here?
As for "bunch that is/are" I would argue that is is the correct verb. it is just one "bunch" after all. Like the wolves are hunting vs the pack (of wolves) is hunting. (I am not a big English/grammar person though... I guess I shouldn't admit that on a linguistics article... lol)
And finally, I disagree with you on this last part as well. I feel like he used 'were' because 9/11 happened in the past... he WAS saying that the "bunch" causing problems now caused problems in the past. I'm not sure how else to argue this one.. we may just have to agree to disagree... unless of course you can explain that more to me.
Now, if the reason that quote is a bushism is because of those, in my opinion, rather nit-picky issues you pointed out, then that is fine. (However, I don't see why we need two sentences on both sides, because context isn't necessary.) But, correct me if I am wrong but I thought the reason it was "funny" was because WE were the ones causing problems in Iraq. This may be my own bias or whatever, but that is what I thought when I read it. As far as the "hand-shaking" quote goes, I feel like this disconnect is completely the audiences fault... He wants to express that he is proud to shake his hand... how else would he say that? "I am proud to shake the remaining hand...."? I am not sure on the way he said it but he could have emphasized in his voice that he was proud to be shaking this man's hand, BECAUSE he may not have been able to had Saddam gotten to him again.. That is all speculation though... I just feel like any disconnect there is comparable (boy, this is an odd comparison) to some physicist leaving some audience members in a "huh?" state because he didn't go into enough detail for them. He assumed his audience knew he was shaking his remaining hand (as opposed to the missing hand.) The audience should have been able to get over any confusion they had, right away... but really there was no confusion... it was just that it is "funny" to hear someone say that. I feel like I am kind of alone here... but I am really only talking to you.. I just wish there were some more opinions. I agree with you that there should be an article about this president's sometimes embarrassing speaking errors, but I just felt like there were some quotes in here that obfuscated what the definition was supposed to be. P337 05:06, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
"Too many good docs are getting out of the business. Too many OB/GYNs aren't able to practice their love with women all across the country."
you said: "This looks more like a slip of the tongue... and does not meet the characteristics defined in the article."
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
A lot of the "Bushisms" floating around on the internet actually appear to have originally spoken by Dan Quayle and subsequently misattributed to Bush.
So is there any reliable source which differentiates "Bushisms" from "Quayleisms" and how can we be sure that all the quotes attribured here to Bush really were his words ? 80.229.222.48 20:24, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
Why is "more of our imports come from overseas" characterised as a Bushism?
Presumably this is considered a stupid remark because all imports come from overseas, but that is a lazy assumption which is not always correct. Would an import into the USA from Canada or Mexico be considered to have come from overseas? If Switzerland imports something from Germany, is that from overseas?
129.230.248.1 12:47, 26 January 2007 (UTC)Tirailleur
Why is the "internets" quote not included in here? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.242.29.27 ( talk) 14:08, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
For one, why is the dicussion page longer then the actual article? Two I don't think the "what they mean part" is nessary.
dennis kussinich 08 19:57 11/24/06
Some of us are more assured by linkable signatures,... & are you aware of the impersonation screenname debate? Spelling?
I've noticed that some people are pointing-out that George's comments conflict with those of Bob Gates. But, the { Defense Secretary} nomination could not go to Laura, Tony Snow, Barney_(dog), Miss_Beazley_(dog),...
Conversely, those who complain about his scandals, including myself, need to remember that no one else would accept the job, with Don Rumsfeld's legacy. It does seem that Mr. Gates is unanimous in committee { Armed Services Committee},...
< http://seattlepi.com/national/1110AP_Former_President_Bush.html >;
"A true measure of a man is how you handle victory and how you handle defeat, so in '94 Floridians chose to rehire the governor. They took note of his worthy [actual audio sounds like 'defeated'] opponent, who showed with not only words but with actions what decency he had,"
George Herbert Walker Bush, Monday, fourth, December.
That quote compares Lawton Mainor Chiles to John Ellis Bush.
Later in that article:
He also talked about his recent friendship with former President Clinton. He recalled a political cartoon showing his son, the president, opposing gay marriage and then walking into a room and finding his father on a sofa with Clinton's arm around him, prompting him to shout, "Dad! What are you doing?"
"(Clinton) cut it out of the paper and said, 'Don't you think we ought to cool it, George?'" Bush said.
Has George, the First, replaced Monica Samille Lewinsky? Is that a Bushism, or, merely, very odd?
Thank You.
[[ hopiakuta | [[ [[%c2%a1]] [[%c2%bf]] [[ %7e%7e%7e%7e ]] -]] 01:46, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
Why no section for Criticism with the various criticisms of "bushisms" with Bush's verbal flubs compared to previous Presidents, and the additional (excessive?) attention paid to them for political purposes?
Eugene Volokh's webpage has myriad links criticising Weisberg's column, for instance.
66.245.144.38 04:39, 24 January 2007 (UTC)No User.
They went like this:
"We must help with the democratization of Afganistan,Iraq and other African countries"
"The problem is that,if you are paying attention,that,if Saddam still would have been in power,if he would have been the President of the US,the world would have been a lot better."
"Wow,Brazil is big!"(after looking at the map of Brazil) Dimts 09:44, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
I find Bushisms as funny as the next dissident, but should this article belong in Wiktionary and not so much on Wikipedia? After all, it is more or less just a definition of Bushism.. 67.142.130.40 04:06, 22 February 2007 (UTC)JSTo
I've reinstated the explanations of the various Bushisms that ILike2BeAnonymous removed two months ago with the summary:
Other famous Bushisms - Remove "helpful" explanations which really are not needed, tend to ruin the jokes and dumb down this section. These quotes stand on their own.
I was awarded a barnstar by another user for the original addition. His reasoning was:
It would not have occurred to me (or anyone else, apparently!) to put these explanations in, but not only do they help non-native speakers, they also make the entry more encyclopedic.
My original thought was the non-native speakers, but I agree with his addition, which is included in the current HTML comment of the section:
The explanations add encyclopedic content to a section that is otherwise pure humor (Wikipedia Is Not a joke book). They're also helpful for non-English speakers. Please do not delete them without discussion on the talk page.
Also note that halfway between deletion and restoration, a comment was added to this talk page asking a question that is answered by the very descriptions ILike2BeAnonymous thought were "not needed[...]and dumb down this section. These quotes stand on their own."
I assume that ILike2BeAnonymous thought his edit would improve the article, but disagree with him for the above reasons. Please don't remove the explanations again without good reasoning and discussion.
-- FunnyMan 21:40, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
Since I'm about to sign off for the evening (and may forget to return) I'm going to lay this in the hands of the community by putting it on Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Language_and_linguistics.
The issue is a set of explanations of the Bushisms listed in the article, which were created by me. I (and Septegram, who awarded me a barnstar for them) believe that these explanations add encyclopedic content to the article, in addition to clarifying them for non-native English speakers who may visit the article. ILike2BeAnonymous and, recently, The Fat Man Who Never Came Back believe that the explanations are not useful and clutter the article (ILike2BeAnonymous's exact wording was "dumb down"). What do others think?
-- FunnyMan 03:31, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
Your narrative is a commentary/explanation/analysis of the bushism. My opinion is that Funnyman's commentary may violate Wiki does not publish original thought. Specifically: "Original research refers to material that is not attributable to a reliable, published source. This includes unpublished facts, arguments, ideas, statements, and neologisms; and any unpublished analysis or synthesis of published material that appears to advance a position. Material added to articles must be directly and explicitly supported by the cited sources."
Also check out Original Research: "Material counts as original research if it: introduces a theory, method of solution, or any other original idea; introduces an analysis, synthesis, explanation, or interpretation of published facts, opinions, or arguments without attributing that analysis, synthesis, explanation, or interpretation to a reliable source who has published the material in relation to the topic of the article" Jonawiki 22:39, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
AFAIK, "Bushism" is a term that came about during the term of George W Bush, not his father. The mention of the latter should be deleted from the intro. Tempshill 08:14, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
-- The Fat Man Who Never Came Back 04:57, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
(Unindent) I suppose it has not already included GHWB references (yet) for a few reasons. 1). I have not yet had the time -- I am traveling constantly and my sources are at home; 2). GHWB is not in power and thus less interesting to discuss or malign (and after all, this is mostly a maligning term); 3). Wikipedia is edited chiefly by young people, many who have a stronger knowledge or interest in current popular culture and focus on what can be found on the internet than serious research into articles. (Evidence: you almost never see newspaper articles cited that are more than about 3 years old, unless they are readily and freely available on the web through a google search. In essence, if it isn't found in Google, it does not exist.) One thing though, per wikipedia rules we cannot simply proclaim that the term refers primarily to the son. We must cite something else (verifiable, reliable) that says so, particularly in comparison to father.
The term really has a long genesis. Originally, Reagan's policies were branded by his opponents as "Reaganism". It was generally used in a negative way, though the Reagan whitehouse aides sometimes turned it around and appropriated it in a positive way. Sometimes (very rarely), the things that Reagan would say would also be called "Reaganism(s)". But these were almost always quips or assertions that displayed his confidence and power. When he left office, GHWB was generally seen as a variation or an extension of the Reagan Presidency. But, where Reagan was the Great Communicator, Bush Sr, stumbled and said silly things, which became "Bushims". So it was originally almost a direct comparison of the communication skills that Reagan had vs the communication inneptitude Bush displayed. In Sr's day, the term was exclusively his and, really, much more prominent in the regular press than it currently is for his son. Since his son came out, the term has been borrowed, reinvigorated or reinstanted or something and applied to him.
My "crusade" as someone called it is considered peculiar. I don't think so. The problem is that this is a "contemporary popular culture" thing. In less than three years, the son will then be as irrelevant as the father is now and the term for both men will fall into equal disfavor. There is no cottage industry or return on investment in casting aspersions toward people not in power, and Jr is currently in power, but not much longer. However, the article will remain in place for years and years, though with less and less attention. In the interest of a valid and strong encyclopedia, I say do not get all excited about the latest faddish trend and stick with things that will have long-term value. In that respect, I'm not sure this article has ANY value, but if it does, it should be complete (and thus less biased, though giving a term that is used to malign someone such attention is, inherently the strong interest of ax grinders). -- Blue Tie 14:59, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
-- Blue Tie 03:58, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
Whether or not it technically qualifies as a Bushism, this is a stupid revert war. The man misspeaks on hundreds of occasions and makes enormous gaffes--if the incident is small enough that it's provoking an arguement, then it's most likely an easily droppable example, if only for the reason that there are much stronger examples out there.
IMO, the strongest examples used for this article would fit the following criteria
First, while I do believe it's a bushism, I don't see why it's a great candidate for this article. I don't believe that bushisms must have double sources to stay in the article, and we don't remove unsourced items on site--you can put a fact tag in if something needs a source, especially if removing it becomes a topic of some debate as it did here. That said, unless a case can be made for why this bushism, because I don't find it funny, it isn't well-sourced as a bushism, and it isn't particularly notable--this seems like a weak bushism to include.
And as for the revert war itself--this is petty stuff people. First, discussion shouldn't be conducted in summaries anyway--explain the edit, but discuss here, that's what a talk page is for. And once it's been reverted back more than once--if you haven't come to the talk page yet, come to the talk page and take a break from that particular edit, especially if it isn't urgent. A revert war over a Bushism? C'mon people. Let's avoid this stuff. Miss Mondegreen | Talk 09:47, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
I also think we should add a section for HW's bushisms. We could use this as a good starting source. Btw, that site also has a great bushisms quiz where you can see if you can tell poppy's bushisms from dubya's. Miss Mondegreen | Talk 09:47, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
This is following the above discussion "recent revert war over troop quote" and comments made by
User:Miss Mondegreen.
Blogs are widely not acceptable sources on Wikipedia, or for any encyclopedia for their sake, as all editors here should know.
At least the subsection "Other Bushisms" ought to be deleted per WP policies. Right now, we have primary sources for the existence of the quotes themselves (which is fine so far) and partisan blogs/magazines/stuff to support that they actually are "Bushisms" (not fine).
As for the remainder of this intensely partisan article, can it be explained how a quote from Bush can "encyclopedically" become commonly known as a "Bushism"? Is it only by being mentioned by a liberal blog or book as such? Are there reliable unPOVed sources that are commonly known to define what is a Bushism and what is not? --
Childhood's End
13:57, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
First, I'm going to argue a policy point with you. The web has evolved. Anyone can be a self-published whatever, but there is a difference between using a middle-school students blog, and a NYTimes reporter's blog. The NYTimes puts stuff online that doesn't always see print or a later version sees print and newspapers and magazines etc. are using the web as a way to produce more material.
That aside, I know these policies well, but I don't see how our article violates them. In re partisan sources, The Washington Post? Time? Telegraph? Slate? PBS?
This article has a NPOV--it isn't about Bush, either Bush, and really focuses on the particularities of what a Bushism is. It should more so, and it should have better or more sources. We should have more on the evolution of the phrase and more on the specifics of the meaning, and more on the types of Bushism, in addition to a section for HW Bushisms. And having looked at the sources, I see some that I'd like to replace with better sources. This article certainly needs work--it's a good start class article, it's not yet a GA article IMO.
But we have verified, non partisan sources. And not every source will reflect Bush (either) in a good light, or be non-partisan (I certainly can't speak about the authors' political leanings), but it doesn't matter. The articles or authors may not be neutral about Bush, but they don't have to be. This is an article about Bushism, and for the majority of the sourcing, we are simply looking for an article about whatever gaffe the President or the former President made, so we have a source not only for a quote, but a source for it as a gaffe, as a Bushism. An article about the Bushism shows that the Bushism itself is notable--not every one is written about, and we're going to look for ones that hopefully discuss the impact of the Bushism (if there was one), etc.
""Fairly good" is true only within a certain POV context aint it? As you somewhat said, we are unlikely to have a non-partisan reliable source that can help us define what is a bushism and what is not."
Actually, all that MarsRover said was that we were unlikely to have "the International Symposium on Bushisms to give us the formal definition". You seem to be the one making this about partisanship, when it really, really isn't. Look at the sources and external links--I'll admit that not all of them are good sources, but there are a lot of very good, non-partisan sources. Btw, Bush and Gore went on SNL for the 2000 election and they both mocked themselves--Gore mocked his stiffness and the whole lockbox thing, and Bush mocked some of his more infamous Bushisms, and, I believe he used the word "Strategery" as well, which is of course not his own Bushism.
I'd replace some of our sources--they aren't all good. But the arguement that we don't have any sources that meet WP policies just doesn't wash--and the arguement that this is somehow a partisan word also doesn't wash.
I'll add the sections I was talking about as soon as I get back in town (I can't do much until then), and I'll fix the "ehh" references then.
Other than this being a start-class article that needs work, I don't see what the issue is. Could you clarify now that I've hopefully responded to some of your points? Miss Mondegreen | Talk 10:07, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
I thought it was agreed (see archive of talk page) that Bush's "I'm the decider" quote is not a Bushism since it is correct English? Why is it back? nadav 23:33, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
"a word, phrase, or other grammatical configuration unique to the style of President George W. Bush while speaking publicly and usually extemporaneously."
such as World Encarta? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Nadav1 ( talk • contribs) 19:45, 4 April 2007 (UTC).
The Characteristics section has been with the article for a long time, and seems to cover the range of Bushism phenomena very well. However I am concerned that there is no attribution to a secondary source for this compendium of Bushism properties. This has a slight whiff of WP:SYN. More crucially, I am concerned that there is no quoted source for the precise definition of Bushism. Even though it may be well-known, there really should be a definition from a secondary source. Note that there may be disagreement among sources; for example, Jacob Weisberg of Slate defines it quite generally:
a comment doesn't have to be flubbed or ungrammatical to qualify as a 'Bushism.' From the beginning, I've included in these anthologies statements by the president that while indisputably correct in terms of sentence structure and noun-verb agreement are nonetheless amusing or terrifying, depending on your perspective, because of what they reveal about the inner man. (To the top of the heap in this edition: "I trust God speaks through me.") In such cases, the concern is that the president may in fact have said precisely what he did mean.
(Intro. to George W. Bushisms V: New Ways to Harm Our Country [2]) Does anyone here have a precisely stated definition taken from an ouside, reliable source? It would be a great addition to the article. nadav 08:37, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
Hey. A couple quick things first. Please remember to sign your posts in the future using four tildes (~~~~). Second, if it's been a while on a talk page since a discussion has been active, it's generally a good idea to start a new section by clicking the plus button next to the "edit this page" button at the top of the page. You can still reply to comments earlier on the page, and refer to them and link to them and quote them, but it makes it easier to notice that you've commented and find your comments, and it keeps discussion linear. I had to use page diffs to figure out what you'd said and that made life a little complicated.
Now, about what you actually said:
"Sources please. And NOT Comedy Central of anything."
The article is dairly well-sourced if you look carefully, and there aren't any sources from Comedy Central unless someone's added something while I was out of town. The issue at hand is more sources for what acurately defines a bushism. But the quotes themselves, and the context that they were said in are very well sourced. That's not at all at issue here.
"Frankly, I don't think this article should exist. It's a wee bit... politically charged. It's not really encyclopedic either. Wikipedia is not some source of humor. If you want humor try Comedy Central."
I'm not sure why you think this article is politically charged, perhaps you could explain. The term is used both in a politically charged manner, often meanly, but it's also used in a friendly manner, and that's something that the article should expand upon. This article should, for example include some of the information about the Bush camp adapting the term "strategery".
Whether the term is politically charged or not, and whether it's funny or not isn't the point. The term is a part of the American vernacular, and it's well documented in multiple articles and books which makes it notable. We don't bypass our policies on inclusion because the issue at hand is politically charged or because the issue at hand is funny. Encylopedia's cover a wide range of topics, including funny ones and politically charged ones. Notability and verifiablity are our inclusion criteria and this article fits those two with ease.
What is an issue is if the article itself makes fun, or attempts to be funny, or takes a political standpoint, and I believe that it's presenting the information at hand neutrally. That does not mean that I think it's a good article. I think that it's a start class article--the bones are there, and the bones are sourced, but this article needs a lot more sources and a lot more information to really be a good article. Considering this includes information about a living person, and that it's a delicate topic, I'd make it a somewhat high priority to get this article to be at least a B class article.
Does that answer your concerns? If not, please expand upon them.
It seems that the term currently Bushism refers only to George W. Bush. The article itself refers only to George W. Bush quotes. The references to George H. W. are at least 15 years old, so I think any relationship to George H. W. Bush in the article should be made as past tense. -- However whatever 15:58, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
The BBC has called it "Bushism". However whatever 22:29, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
Quote from article
-- However whatever 12:22, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
This discussion is proving this article as a joke, yet again. The guy speaks millions of words per week in public, barely slips on a mere single one ("seventeen" instead of "nineteen seventy") and we are already arguing over whether this is worth of encyclopedic mention or not. This is just a sad page discrediting other reasonable Democrats.
"Never hate your ennemies. It affects your judgment." (The Godfather, Part III) --
Childhood's End
13:52, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
[restarting indent]
Childhood's end--you are the only person to make this discussion political, and many of us who are watching the article are working very hard to keep this article from becomming political. The fact of the matter is, is that the President, whomever the President may be is watched very closely. I think of a few other gaffes by normally very well spoken Presidents that are famous. They are notable, and therefore, by Wikipedia's standards, encyclopedic.
Now, this article is meant to explain a word in the English language. It is a linguistics article, though there are political overtones, on both sides of the aisle. All of that should be discussed and it's a failing of the article that it isn't.
Now, a lot of people don't understand what qualifies for inclusion in an article, and this happens in lots of articles that are either lists, or have self-contained lists within them. People assume that anything that fits the criteria should go on the list--that's why there are listcruft tags--it's a highly common problem. The issue at hand is that for something to go on the list, it has to fit every parameter of the list, and as the list is a selection, a series of examples, the item should either be the best possible that could be used to explain something, or it should be notable in and of itself. This is unusual--normally, only the topic of an article must fit Wikipedia's notability standards, and non-notable information is necessary in the article to explain the topic and give background information. Not so on most lists. The discussion we had, and the explanation of why something didn't belong in the article had little to do with the item itself, with Bushism, and nothing to do with politics. It had everything to do with how lists and articles in general are created and maintained on Wikipedia.
You're seeing demons where they're aren't any, your complaints are rarely on topic, and it's very tiring to be defending even mundane "no list-cruft" edits. Please, attempt to improve the article through discussion or work. Complaining (not on topic) about run-of-the-mill list cleaning doesn't help anyone, least of all you and your case.
Miss Mondegreen
talk 04:46, May 12 2007
Thank you for your suggestion. When you feel an article needs improvement, please feel free to make those changes. Wikipedia is a wiki, so anyone can edit almost any article by simply following the Edit this page link at the top. The Wikipedia community encourages you to be bold in updating pages. Don't worry too much about making honest mistakes — they're likely to be found and corrected quickly. If you're not sure how editing works, check out how to edit a page, or use the sandbox to try out your editing skills. New contributors are always welcome. You don't even need to log in (although there are many reasons why you might want to). Miss Mondegreen talk 22:28, May 13 2007
(reset indent) Do you even consider the criticisms made against this article?
Perhaps, only perhaps, will you find some interest in this Spinsanity article [4]: "As critics such as UCLA law professor Eugene Volokh have shown, that's the problem with Slate's series of "Bushisms (...). Slate editor Jacob Weisberg, has highlighted plenty of grammatical errors by the President, some of which are humorous or noteworthy. However, the series has also frequently taken the President's words out of context to make reasonable statements seem nonsensical, grammatically incorrect or even offensive. (...) There's nothing inherently wrong with making fun of the candidates, but even while engaging in satire, political journalists still have a responsibility to not mislead their audience. (...) These examples demonstrate that the magazine's efforts to mock Bush and Kerry for their supposed verbal missteps has led Slate to take quotes so far out of context as to essentially engage in outright dishonesty. Weisberg and Saletan seem so eager to find quotes that fit their established storylines that they don't pay enough attention to whether the examples are actually valid. Given Slate's prestige and influence, these columns matter. Even more disturbingly, in the introduction to the new "Bushisms" book, Weisberg takes his collected quotes as evidence of the President doesn't know much and doesn't care to learn. "Bush may look like a well-meaning dolt," the Slate editor writes. "On consideration, he's something far more dangerous: a dedicated fool."
No matter how notable this article is, I think it explains very reasonably why a list of Bushisms belongs in a magazine but not in an encyclopedia. This also points out very clearly that this Bushism affair is more about politics than linguistics, that it can be reasonably associated with Bush-hating, and that it can be injurious towards a living person, what a magazine or vanity book can perhaps afford, but not an encyclopedia. -- Childhood's End 14:15, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
I added in a reference regarding the White House claiming he said "a commander guy" rather then "the commander guy." I thought it would be fair to acknowledge that there have been numerous other sources that state he said that later. -- Pinkkeith 14:40, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
This article does not once mention the word diskembobulated, which George bush likes to use. 124.197.50.143 22:13, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
OK, I found a reference where Bush uses the word "discombobulated", but it appears that he is using the word correctly, although it is impossible to tell what he really meant when he said it. See the "disassemble" bushism in the article. It would not have been Bushism if he were not to define what he meant, which revealed that he really meant "dissemble". -- However whatever 14:23, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
I don't feel like this quote really fits with the scheme of the "bushisms"
"I don't need to remind you who al-Qaeda is. Al-Qaeda is the group that plot and planned and trained killers to come and kill people on our soil. The same bunch that is causing havoc in Iraq were the ones who came and murdered our citizens."
Its not perfect English by any means, but it seems to be more about the content which people find funny... maybe I am just missing the point of it. I assume what is amusing that WE are the bunch causing havoc in Iraq, but it seems pretty obvious that he was saying that al queda was causing problems in Iraq... which may not be correct or whatever, but I dont see any real structure errors here... P337 07:55, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
In short, bad definition. In long:
"Rarely is the question asked, is our children learning?" This looks more like a slip of the tongue... and does not meet the characteristics defined in the article.
"I know the human being and fish can coexist peacefully." This may be obvious or funny or whatever, but it is perfect linguistics. (Without researching it) I assume that this is pretty much what he meant to say... probably something about pollution.
"I'm honored to shake the hand of a brave Iraqi citizen who had his hand cut off by Saddam Hussein." Again... may be funny, but we assume the man has two hands. This one is kind of iffy because it IS redundant... but its more of a kind of a double-take sentence (if you know what I'm saying by that). I dont feel as though it fits with the characteristics defined in the article.
"Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we." As someone with an interest in network security, it is very common that to keep up with ways that other people can harm your network. This is a perfectly obvious sentence. Do we not want our leaders to be thinking about these things?
"Make no mistake about it, I understand how tough it is, sir. I talk to families who die." I feel this is the first example of a bushism that kind of actually meets the criteria defined. though i dont feel like it is a very GOOD example.
"Too many good docs are getting out of the business. Too many OB/GYNs aren't able to practice their love with women all across the country." This is definitely awkward... and strange... I dont see how it fits any of the characteristics... please explain.
"Families is where our nation finds hope, where wings take dream." Excellent example.
"I don't need to remind you who al-Qaeda is. Al-Qaeda is the group that plot and planned and trained killers to come and kill people on our soil. The same bunch that is causing havoc in Iraq were the ones who came and murdered our citizens." I wrote a whole paragraph on this one (above).
"We put in more troops to get to a position where we can be in some other place. The question is, who ought to make that decision? The Congress or the commanders? And as you know, my position is clear—I'm a commander guy." And finally this is not a page of stupid things GWB says. It is supposed to be about bushisms... this has nothing to do with a bushism. Either these need to be removed (or explain to me, because I may very well be confused about what a bushism is) or we need to redefine Bushism as something funny or stupid that GWB says.
I hope I am exhibiting a NPOV, and I want the others that view this page to be aware that I am completely uninterested in both parties... I just stumbled upon this page and was a little disappointed by what seems to be a heavy political bias. I would appreciate a reply from some of the people up there (and new of course). Maybe I should just remove these so people will actually have a discussion. If anyone needs these quotes I'm sure a quick search of "the google" for "funny bush quotes" will return all of them. P337 06:28, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
"A Bushism is any of a number of peculiar words, phrases, pronunciations, malapropisms, semantic or linguistic errors" (emphasis added)
Anything else?
Miss Mondegreen
talk 21:58, June 3 2007 (UTC)
First of all, thanks for clearing up that bit about wrecking, I was a little confused by that, but hey we all make mistakes. I have read what you said, and it is interesting the way you rationalized keeping that particular quote. First, this whole issue about wreaking havoc seems like quite a stretch to me, since to wreak means (loosely) to cause... no confusion there.
The part about his use of who doesn't seem like a problem to me. Its like saying, "I don't need to remind you who the World Wildlife Foundation is, They are the..." In both cases they are groups and groups can use that 'who' it seems.
Now about this plot/planned/killer part. I will admit that I didnt notice the "killers to come kill" thing. Now about the tenses not matching up, I am not going to try and defend any of that, like I said I know it wasn't perfect English. but I thought it took a little more than that to become a Bushism. If that is the case then why are there two other sentences here?
As for "bunch that is/are" I would argue that is is the correct verb. it is just one "bunch" after all. Like the wolves are hunting vs the pack (of wolves) is hunting. (I am not a big English/grammar person though... I guess I shouldn't admit that on a linguistics article... lol)
And finally, I disagree with you on this last part as well. I feel like he used 'were' because 9/11 happened in the past... he WAS saying that the "bunch" causing problems now caused problems in the past. I'm not sure how else to argue this one.. we may just have to agree to disagree... unless of course you can explain that more to me.
Now, if the reason that quote is a bushism is because of those, in my opinion, rather nit-picky issues you pointed out, then that is fine. (However, I don't see why we need two sentences on both sides, because context isn't necessary.) But, correct me if I am wrong but I thought the reason it was "funny" was because WE were the ones causing problems in Iraq. This may be my own bias or whatever, but that is what I thought when I read it. As far as the "hand-shaking" quote goes, I feel like this disconnect is completely the audiences fault... He wants to express that he is proud to shake his hand... how else would he say that? "I am proud to shake the remaining hand...."? I am not sure on the way he said it but he could have emphasized in his voice that he was proud to be shaking this man's hand, BECAUSE he may not have been able to had Saddam gotten to him again.. That is all speculation though... I just feel like any disconnect there is comparable (boy, this is an odd comparison) to some physicist leaving some audience members in a "huh?" state because he didn't go into enough detail for them. He assumed his audience knew he was shaking his remaining hand (as opposed to the missing hand.) The audience should have been able to get over any confusion they had, right away... but really there was no confusion... it was just that it is "funny" to hear someone say that. I feel like I am kind of alone here... but I am really only talking to you.. I just wish there were some more opinions. I agree with you that there should be an article about this president's sometimes embarrassing speaking errors, but I just felt like there were some quotes in here that obfuscated what the definition was supposed to be. P337 05:06, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
"Too many good docs are getting out of the business. Too many OB/GYNs aren't able to practice their love with women all across the country."
you said: "This looks more like a slip of the tongue... and does not meet the characteristics defined in the article."