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The result of the move request was: not moved. Favonian ( talk) 18:01, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
British people → Britons – This article, if it is to follow the conventions of other similar articles, should be placed at “Britons”. The standard appears to be that in cases where there is a common proper noun, such as Germans, Americans or Swedes, the article is at that title. The “X people” formation is usually used in cases where there is no common gender neutral demonym, as in French people rather than “Frenchmen”, or Japanese people rather than “Japanese”. In this case, we have the commonly used and gender-neutral “Britons”. Let’s move it. 138.16.100.45 ( talk) 05:16, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
*'''Support'''
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Wikipedia's policy on article titles.I don’t know where people are getting the idea that Britons commonly refers to the people who spoke the ancient Brythonic languages. If they read any newspaper, they would see that is used routinely to refer to British people. It is not antiquated. It is not incorrect. It is common usage. 138.16.103.179 ( talk) 04:55, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
This would be a more correct Ngrams search: [15]. 138.16.103.149 ( talk) 19:35, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
Welsh and Scottish people are UK citizens but they are not British as they do not see themselves as such. English people identify mostly as British as they want to include everyone in their national identity. They are inclusive, but the Welsh and Scots do not necessarily want to be included in the British nation. For people in Wales and Scotland, British and English are the same thing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.150.88.106 ( talk) 08:49, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
I' not sure how people are selected to be in the info-box, but Tony Blair is generally viewed negatively by British People as he in often linked with corruption and dishonesty due to how he handled Iraq and his relationship with US Presidents. I would suggest replacing him with someone less, controversial. Regards, Rob ( talk) 15:51, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
Hypothetical situation: I'm categorizing, say, actors and there are British actors, English actors, Actors from Northern Ireland, Scottish actors and Welsh actors. My instinct was to reclassify the "British actors" according to country/nationality. But then, I was wondering if there is some reason to have a separate "British" category. So, I have changed any categories but I came here for answers and I'm still unsure. Any guidance? Liz Read! Talk! 01:53, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
This is a complete lie. The term 'Briton' is not used any more formally then the term 'Brit'. Regards, Rob ( talk) 13:54, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
The images in the infobox have been discussed several times on this page - most recently it seems here, which I accept is some time ago. We had a collage until it was deleted last year because one of the images used in it failed the copyright requirements. I have no problem with reviewing and changing the image(s) - but can we please have discussion centralised here, on this page, where different editors can contribute, rather than by unilateral changes on the page itself - which almost inevitably lead to edit warring. Thank you. Ghmyrtle ( talk) 19:25, 5 June 2014 (UTC)
This article is about British as an ethnic group (and nationality), why are British descendants in America, Australia, Canada etc included if it wasn't? So the white British population in the United Kingdom is relevant not just the entire population of the UK. Atotalstranger ( talk) 00:20, 3 September 2014 (UTC)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEL7nCM5itg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFQiuGvxMd0 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.73.133.236 ( talk) 15:34, 3 January 2015 (UTC)
The term "British" is used to refer to nationality, a citizen of, or a person living in the United Kingdom. If we're talking about the native ethnic groups, those would be English people, Scots, and Welsh people. Honestly, this is as stupid as someone claiming "American" as an ethnicity. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.240.63.121 ( talk) 19:13, 18 October 2014 (UTC)
If anyone's able? we need some images for this article's infobox. It looks rather bare, without one. GoodDay ( talk) 04:44, 22 February 2015 (UTC)
No thanks. Infobox image collages are pointless, subjective trivia. Whatever the result of selection, no-one will will happy with it. Lists of British people shows how divisive this will be. Daicaregos ( talk) 15:50, 22 March 2015 (UTC)
I see no good reason of why a crowd of (all white) British people at an event in Kent adds to anyone's understanding of the article topic. I certainly do not want to have a mosaic reinstated - but I don't want some random photo of people waving flags included either. Ghmyrtle ( talk) 13:49, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
We've got images for English people, Scottish people & Welsh people (we should have images for People of Northern Ireland aswell), therefore it shouldn't be too difficult to choose pictures from those articles. GoodDay ( talk) 15:21, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
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For editors interested, there's an RfC currently being held: Should sections on genetics be removed from pages on ethnic groups?. Cheers! -- Iryna Harpy ( talk) 01:53, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
A recent video shows a family of three being knocked out on a crowded street in a city a country that underpays its police- and justice officers. I have purposely not provided any links to that case. Are any of the reactions to the case notable (perhaps from British officials)? The video, from municipal surveillance cameras, was allegedly leaked from a non-British police force. Is the case notable yet, for an article of its own? Of non-British media, one Danish newspaper also reported about the case and the video. Are there also any notable claims that there was racism involved (against the Britons)? 46.15.248.80 ( talk) 08:04, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
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Should the British really be described as citizens in the introduction? This is quite a republican term in meaning. The British do not declare allegiance to a state or to the people, but to a monarch and his/her progeny, which on paper, holds Great Britain and it's colonies as their personal fiefdom. Claíomh Solais ( talk) 23:52, 2 April 2017 (UTC)
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I don't understand why this is in the category "ethnic group". The term British, like American is quite artificial, connected to the state rather than the ethnic groups which make it up. The English or Welsh are ethnic groups, but "British"? Claíomh Solais ( talk) 21:16, 4 November 2017 (UTC)
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ This entire Article is wrong in respect of the indigenous peoples of the British isle.
Professor Stephen Oppenhiemer has produced an extemnsive studdy of the distributio, evolution and orogins of the major haplogroups across europe. The English, Scots, welsh adn irish, along with somne northern european popualtions carry unique dna, speciafically Haplogroupsd R1B1 and vvarious, speciufic subclades ar eUnbique to them. jis peer reviewed science showsa that a) the peoples of the British Islands are a unique and indigenous population, that they have orogins in three waves of immigration at 13,000 , 8000 and 3000 years ago, that subsequent immigration waves after these have had little effect on the DNA pool, and the main haplogroup common to the people orginates in Southern Spain, and not northern Europe. As to various lefty claim thatthe first peope lhere were black, this is arranrt nonsenbse with no scientific basis.
http://www.bradshawfoundation.com/stephenoppenheimer/origins_of_the_british.php
This research has been backed up by further reseach by David Miles.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Tribes-Britain-David-Miles/dp/0753817993
This article is biassed, inaccurate and an insult to my nation, my nationality and my culture.
2A02:C7F:DA68:2600:A8DE:417F:CCA6:4641 ( talk) 13:30, 13 April 2018 (UTC)
quote -
"and the peoples of what are today England, Wales, Scotland and the Isle of Man of Prettanike."
The term Prettanike, in italics, pops um at the end of the first paragraph of the first section - but is not explained anywhere. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:16B8:4247:2100:95CE:27CC:F566:4A35 ( talk) 22:47, 2 March 2018 (UTC)
An editor has today inflated the size of the British diaspora to 178 million, without updating sources. I would simply revert this, but checking the sources, I am not convinced about the number it should be reverted to. The figure is found in the infobox with one source and in the main with a second source. Neither source checks out. The infobox source leads to the book, Britannia's Children: Emigration from England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland Since 1600 (no page number). This source says:
"Twenty-five million emigrants left the British Isles in the four hundred years after 1600, mainly travelling to America or to parts of the British Empire around the world."
Yet that does not support a 25 million figure for diaspora, because many of those have died, and perhaps we should include also their descendants, at least when those descendants were deemed British citizens, and perhaps more loosely. A failure to define terms makes an exact figure tricky, but in any case, I find no such figure in the source.
The source in the main is to:Encyclopedia of Diasporas: Immigrant and Refugee Cultures Around the World. Again no page numbers are given, but I find a long discussion of numbers, summed up in this conclusion on page 55:
At the end of the 1980s about 3,200,000 British people resided overseas compared with almost 60 million in the United Kingdom. [...] This is the main extent of the remaining British disapora, defined narrowly in terms of first-generation emigrants. A more generous and encompassing definition of the diaspora would, of course, gather in all the descendents of the emigrants who, over four centuries, claimed antecedents in the British Isles.
So, what number should we put here? The unsourced ones cannot stand. If the editor who added 178 million has a source, please can they put it here for discussion. Failing that, the options are to change the number to 3 million per the second source, or else to delete it altogether. The text in the main could be expanded to give a narrative rather than a figure. Thoughts, please? -- Sirfurboy🏄 ( talk) 17:05, 28 February 2020 (UTC)
The number of Britons in Argentina is 300.000, more than 250.000; there are about 300.000 people of British descent in Argentina. -- 190.183.247.43 ( talk) 21:47, 2 March 2020 (UTC)
The 2nd citation beside the US says 67 million people of British origin in the US (as of the year 2000). The number in the list is only 678,000, which is the number of British citizens, not of British origin. Needs to be changed, me thinks. Masterhatch ( talk) 04:55, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
" a British diaspora of around 140 million concentrated in the United States, Australia, Canada, and New Zealand, with smaller concentrations in the Republic of Ireland, Chile, South Africa, and parts of the Caribbean."
Who wrote this? An Irishman?
Do you seriously expect people to believe that the number of British in Ireland is on par with Chile? What a coincidence that in every English-speaking country where a large Irish diaspora exists, there we find a large British diaspora - except in Ireland itself.
Bullshit. Ireland is the most British country in the world outside of the UK - which it was a part of for over a century. The free movement of people and goods between the ROI and UK guarantees that there's a large British diaspora in Ireland. Jonathan f1 ( talk) 05:32, 12 January 2022 (UTC)
There were 103,113 UK nationals usually resident in the State of Ireland in April 2016, not 291,000 as stated on the article! The number of UK nationals living in Ireland decreased by 8 per cent between 2011 and 2016. This was the greatest percentage decrease in population size among the top ten nationalities profiled. ( Reference: https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-cpnin/cpnin/uk/#:~:text=UK%20Nationals%3A%20103%2C113,the%20top%20ten%20nationalities%20profiled._ Ériugena ( talk) 15:14, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
Most dictionaries distinguish between Briton And British.
The National Geographic Style Manual is clear:
British, Briton, English, England Do not use England or English when Great Britain, United Kingdom, or British is intended.
Great Britain, or Britain, since 1707 has comprised England, Scotland, and Wales.
The United Kingdom, formed in 1801, comprises Great Britain plus Northern Ireland; the present Republic of Ireland was included until 1922.
The British Isles comprise the United Kingdom, Ireland, and the adjacent islands, including the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man.
English refers only to England and its people; thus the present queen is the British queen.
British refers in particular to the United Kingdom but historically to the entire Commonwealth and its people.
A Briton is a native of the island of Great Britain. 86.148.37.137 ( talk) 11:08, 19 August 2022 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
The result of the move request was: not moved. Favonian ( talk) 18:01, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
British people → Britons – This article, if it is to follow the conventions of other similar articles, should be placed at “Britons”. The standard appears to be that in cases where there is a common proper noun, such as Germans, Americans or Swedes, the article is at that title. The “X people” formation is usually used in cases where there is no common gender neutral demonym, as in French people rather than “Frenchmen”, or Japanese people rather than “Japanese”. In this case, we have the commonly used and gender-neutral “Britons”. Let’s move it. 138.16.100.45 ( talk) 05:16, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
*'''Support'''
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Wikipedia's policy on article titles.I don’t know where people are getting the idea that Britons commonly refers to the people who spoke the ancient Brythonic languages. If they read any newspaper, they would see that is used routinely to refer to British people. It is not antiquated. It is not incorrect. It is common usage. 138.16.103.179 ( talk) 04:55, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
This would be a more correct Ngrams search: [15]. 138.16.103.149 ( talk) 19:35, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
Welsh and Scottish people are UK citizens but they are not British as they do not see themselves as such. English people identify mostly as British as they want to include everyone in their national identity. They are inclusive, but the Welsh and Scots do not necessarily want to be included in the British nation. For people in Wales and Scotland, British and English are the same thing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.150.88.106 ( talk) 08:49, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
I' not sure how people are selected to be in the info-box, but Tony Blair is generally viewed negatively by British People as he in often linked with corruption and dishonesty due to how he handled Iraq and his relationship with US Presidents. I would suggest replacing him with someone less, controversial. Regards, Rob ( talk) 15:51, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
Hypothetical situation: I'm categorizing, say, actors and there are British actors, English actors, Actors from Northern Ireland, Scottish actors and Welsh actors. My instinct was to reclassify the "British actors" according to country/nationality. But then, I was wondering if there is some reason to have a separate "British" category. So, I have changed any categories but I came here for answers and I'm still unsure. Any guidance? Liz Read! Talk! 01:53, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
This is a complete lie. The term 'Briton' is not used any more formally then the term 'Brit'. Regards, Rob ( talk) 13:54, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
The images in the infobox have been discussed several times on this page - most recently it seems here, which I accept is some time ago. We had a collage until it was deleted last year because one of the images used in it failed the copyright requirements. I have no problem with reviewing and changing the image(s) - but can we please have discussion centralised here, on this page, where different editors can contribute, rather than by unilateral changes on the page itself - which almost inevitably lead to edit warring. Thank you. Ghmyrtle ( talk) 19:25, 5 June 2014 (UTC)
This article is about British as an ethnic group (and nationality), why are British descendants in America, Australia, Canada etc included if it wasn't? So the white British population in the United Kingdom is relevant not just the entire population of the UK. Atotalstranger ( talk) 00:20, 3 September 2014 (UTC)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEL7nCM5itg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFQiuGvxMd0 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.73.133.236 ( talk) 15:34, 3 January 2015 (UTC)
The term "British" is used to refer to nationality, a citizen of, or a person living in the United Kingdom. If we're talking about the native ethnic groups, those would be English people, Scots, and Welsh people. Honestly, this is as stupid as someone claiming "American" as an ethnicity. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.240.63.121 ( talk) 19:13, 18 October 2014 (UTC)
If anyone's able? we need some images for this article's infobox. It looks rather bare, without one. GoodDay ( talk) 04:44, 22 February 2015 (UTC)
No thanks. Infobox image collages are pointless, subjective trivia. Whatever the result of selection, no-one will will happy with it. Lists of British people shows how divisive this will be. Daicaregos ( talk) 15:50, 22 March 2015 (UTC)
I see no good reason of why a crowd of (all white) British people at an event in Kent adds to anyone's understanding of the article topic. I certainly do not want to have a mosaic reinstated - but I don't want some random photo of people waving flags included either. Ghmyrtle ( talk) 13:49, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
We've got images for English people, Scottish people & Welsh people (we should have images for People of Northern Ireland aswell), therefore it shouldn't be too difficult to choose pictures from those articles. GoodDay ( talk) 15:21, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
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For editors interested, there's an RfC currently being held: Should sections on genetics be removed from pages on ethnic groups?. Cheers! -- Iryna Harpy ( talk) 01:53, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
A recent video shows a family of three being knocked out on a crowded street in a city a country that underpays its police- and justice officers. I have purposely not provided any links to that case. Are any of the reactions to the case notable (perhaps from British officials)? The video, from municipal surveillance cameras, was allegedly leaked from a non-British police force. Is the case notable yet, for an article of its own? Of non-British media, one Danish newspaper also reported about the case and the video. Are there also any notable claims that there was racism involved (against the Britons)? 46.15.248.80 ( talk) 08:04, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
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Should the British really be described as citizens in the introduction? This is quite a republican term in meaning. The British do not declare allegiance to a state or to the people, but to a monarch and his/her progeny, which on paper, holds Great Britain and it's colonies as their personal fiefdom. Claíomh Solais ( talk) 23:52, 2 April 2017 (UTC)
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I don't understand why this is in the category "ethnic group". The term British, like American is quite artificial, connected to the state rather than the ethnic groups which make it up. The English or Welsh are ethnic groups, but "British"? Claíomh Solais ( talk) 21:16, 4 November 2017 (UTC)
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ This entire Article is wrong in respect of the indigenous peoples of the British isle.
Professor Stephen Oppenhiemer has produced an extemnsive studdy of the distributio, evolution and orogins of the major haplogroups across europe. The English, Scots, welsh adn irish, along with somne northern european popualtions carry unique dna, speciafically Haplogroupsd R1B1 and vvarious, speciufic subclades ar eUnbique to them. jis peer reviewed science showsa that a) the peoples of the British Islands are a unique and indigenous population, that they have orogins in three waves of immigration at 13,000 , 8000 and 3000 years ago, that subsequent immigration waves after these have had little effect on the DNA pool, and the main haplogroup common to the people orginates in Southern Spain, and not northern Europe. As to various lefty claim thatthe first peope lhere were black, this is arranrt nonsenbse with no scientific basis.
http://www.bradshawfoundation.com/stephenoppenheimer/origins_of_the_british.php
This research has been backed up by further reseach by David Miles.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Tribes-Britain-David-Miles/dp/0753817993
This article is biassed, inaccurate and an insult to my nation, my nationality and my culture.
2A02:C7F:DA68:2600:A8DE:417F:CCA6:4641 ( talk) 13:30, 13 April 2018 (UTC)
quote -
"and the peoples of what are today England, Wales, Scotland and the Isle of Man of Prettanike."
The term Prettanike, in italics, pops um at the end of the first paragraph of the first section - but is not explained anywhere. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:16B8:4247:2100:95CE:27CC:F566:4A35 ( talk) 22:47, 2 March 2018 (UTC)
An editor has today inflated the size of the British diaspora to 178 million, without updating sources. I would simply revert this, but checking the sources, I am not convinced about the number it should be reverted to. The figure is found in the infobox with one source and in the main with a second source. Neither source checks out. The infobox source leads to the book, Britannia's Children: Emigration from England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland Since 1600 (no page number). This source says:
"Twenty-five million emigrants left the British Isles in the four hundred years after 1600, mainly travelling to America or to parts of the British Empire around the world."
Yet that does not support a 25 million figure for diaspora, because many of those have died, and perhaps we should include also their descendants, at least when those descendants were deemed British citizens, and perhaps more loosely. A failure to define terms makes an exact figure tricky, but in any case, I find no such figure in the source.
The source in the main is to:Encyclopedia of Diasporas: Immigrant and Refugee Cultures Around the World. Again no page numbers are given, but I find a long discussion of numbers, summed up in this conclusion on page 55:
At the end of the 1980s about 3,200,000 British people resided overseas compared with almost 60 million in the United Kingdom. [...] This is the main extent of the remaining British disapora, defined narrowly in terms of first-generation emigrants. A more generous and encompassing definition of the diaspora would, of course, gather in all the descendents of the emigrants who, over four centuries, claimed antecedents in the British Isles.
So, what number should we put here? The unsourced ones cannot stand. If the editor who added 178 million has a source, please can they put it here for discussion. Failing that, the options are to change the number to 3 million per the second source, or else to delete it altogether. The text in the main could be expanded to give a narrative rather than a figure. Thoughts, please? -- Sirfurboy🏄 ( talk) 17:05, 28 February 2020 (UTC)
The number of Britons in Argentina is 300.000, more than 250.000; there are about 300.000 people of British descent in Argentina. -- 190.183.247.43 ( talk) 21:47, 2 March 2020 (UTC)
The 2nd citation beside the US says 67 million people of British origin in the US (as of the year 2000). The number in the list is only 678,000, which is the number of British citizens, not of British origin. Needs to be changed, me thinks. Masterhatch ( talk) 04:55, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
" a British diaspora of around 140 million concentrated in the United States, Australia, Canada, and New Zealand, with smaller concentrations in the Republic of Ireland, Chile, South Africa, and parts of the Caribbean."
Who wrote this? An Irishman?
Do you seriously expect people to believe that the number of British in Ireland is on par with Chile? What a coincidence that in every English-speaking country where a large Irish diaspora exists, there we find a large British diaspora - except in Ireland itself.
Bullshit. Ireland is the most British country in the world outside of the UK - which it was a part of for over a century. The free movement of people and goods between the ROI and UK guarantees that there's a large British diaspora in Ireland. Jonathan f1 ( talk) 05:32, 12 January 2022 (UTC)
There were 103,113 UK nationals usually resident in the State of Ireland in April 2016, not 291,000 as stated on the article! The number of UK nationals living in Ireland decreased by 8 per cent between 2011 and 2016. This was the greatest percentage decrease in population size among the top ten nationalities profiled. ( Reference: https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-cpnin/cpnin/uk/#:~:text=UK%20Nationals%3A%20103%2C113,the%20top%20ten%20nationalities%20profiled._ Ériugena ( talk) 15:14, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
Most dictionaries distinguish between Briton And British.
The National Geographic Style Manual is clear:
British, Briton, English, England Do not use England or English when Great Britain, United Kingdom, or British is intended.
Great Britain, or Britain, since 1707 has comprised England, Scotland, and Wales.
The United Kingdom, formed in 1801, comprises Great Britain plus Northern Ireland; the present Republic of Ireland was included until 1922.
The British Isles comprise the United Kingdom, Ireland, and the adjacent islands, including the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man.
English refers only to England and its people; thus the present queen is the British queen.
British refers in particular to the United Kingdom but historically to the entire Commonwealth and its people.
A Briton is a native of the island of Great Britain. 86.148.37.137 ( talk) 11:08, 19 August 2022 (UTC)