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-- Robdurbar 12:23, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
I know I've banged on about this before, but this article really is appalling. It's been hijacked by those who want to stir up the imaginary "controversy" about the terminology. The so-called controversy is mentioned in the banner heading and the lead. Then there's a whole section, which covers almost 50% of the article. I'm thinking all of this should be removed from this article and put elsewhere, either in a brand new article, or at the Terminology article. British Isles should only mention the so-called controversy in passing. This article should really be about geography. After all, the term is principally geographic. Arcturus 21:40, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
Rubbish do not tell me what I can, and can't, edit in Wikipedia. I'm going to remove the above instruction when others have seen what I'm on about. Arcturus 21:40, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
Can we have some proof that Pliny included Iceland in the term, or had even heard of it? TharkunColl 18:52, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Islands (and island groups) listed by Plny as part of the Britanniae:
The ones with question marks are frankly just guesswork by scholars. As for the islands supposedly off Britanny, we might as well (on just as much evidence) say that they are actually Jersey and Guernsey, thereby giving them a good modern justification for inclusion in the British Isles.
Much more interesting are those islands in the North Sea (German Sea), which almost certainly refer to islands now submerged (such as Lomea off Kent which was submerged in 1099). And Thule - what about Rockall?
Pliny also mentions a number of other places (Mictis, Scandia, Dumna, Nerigos), but he does not say that these were classed under the term Britanniae. TharkunColl 11:45, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
I found an embossed map of the British Isles in an 1877 book by William Moon, inventor of Moon type. I put the image at Embossing. -- Evertype· ✆ 11:01, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Has anyone got a source for Diodorus Siculus other than the scanned 1814 version of his Library at Google Books or the (incomplete) versions on the Gutenberg project? The reason I ask is that the first reference to the Preteni on the British Isles page is given as being from Pytheas and from Diodorus Siculus (footnote 4 on the page). As far as I can see, Pytheas work has not survived, and I read the online version of Diodorus Siculus, but this has a different interpretation of the text than is quoted in the footnote currently in the Wikipedia edit.
The footnote states "Diodorus Siculus c.50BC: 'those of the Pretani who inhabit the country called Iris (Ireland)'".
In the scanned 1814 version in Google Books, the text is slightly different and has a footnote that interprets the term Iris differently. The 1814 text talks about "the Britains that inhabit Iris", with a footnote explaining that Iris is "some part of Britain, then so called." (the text is in Book V, Chapter II, page 317 of the 1814 version, easily found on Google Books)
Anyone got another version handy? Does anyone know who put in the footnote? It's a pretty important difference in the context of properly sourcing the origin of the term but dear old Diodorus isn't easy to find online.. I know this was mentioned above, in the discussion on the term Pretani, but that discussion got complicated and I'm just looking for a source reference. hughsheehy 18:34, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
and one in support:Scholars agree that the name Pretani, which is thus implied as a general name for their inhabitants from at least the fourth century onwards, can hardly be identical with the name Britanni...It is a very probable conjecture that Caesar, finding himself at the outset of his expedition on the borders of a Belgic tribe called Britanni and knowing that the country he was about to invade had been lately colonized from Belgic Gaul, believed himself able to correct a widespread error by substituting the forms Britanni, Britannia, for Pretani and its Latinized correlative Pretania. Collingwood, R.G. (1990). Roman Britain and the English Settlements. pp. p. 31.
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One of the earliest surviving texts to use the Britannia name was written by the Greek geographer Diodorus Siculus and it is widely accepted that he was drawing heavily on Pytheas. The actual name used by Diodorus was Pretannia, which in the original source would have been Prettanikē...By the first century BC the P had become B and the nickname given to the people of the island by the Gaulish Celts began to be used by Classical authors as the name of the island – Britannia. Cunliffe, Barry (2003). The Celts: Very Short Introduction. pp. p. 86.
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<reduce indent> Again, thanks. I'm not so concerned if it's English or Latin (or German or Italian), but I'm still short on references to British Isles between the Romans and 1550 or so. Hughsheehy 17:24, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
This article has had various bits of text stuck up at the top of the article, before the lead, where you'd only ever normally to find a dab-header. Leaving aside the discussion about any controversy, and the scale of, this should be in the lead - not stuck right at the top of the article. Thanks/ wangi 22:03, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
I've removed the "Use outside Great Britain and Ireland" section as it's clearly original research: it makes no effort to cite a source making the claim, but only has links to two non-notable websites, both of which can be described as insensitive but little more. This is obviously a personal analysis or synthesis of published material that appears to advance a position the editor may hold .. dave souza, talk 23:18, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
I think what is at issue here is the literal meaing of British Isles - meaning the islands owned by Britian - which is disliked in Ireland. After 700 years+ of invasion, irish people are trying to distance themselves from statements that would suggest they are still under british control. This is fact, not opinion. So i would say either mention this in the article or rename it "West Europeon Isles" or something geographicly correct like that. -- 212.2.165.62 21:29, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
If the banner must be removed by the British Editors then the leading paragraphs must be reworked to reflect the fact that most people in Ireland do not class themselves in the British isles. British isles is/was political term, and probably still is. 86.42.132.84 23:54, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Agreed, the government of Ireland doesn't even respect or recognise the term "British Isles"...this should be smack bang in the introduction...the term is officially disputed...and for the Irish it doesn't include them. The Republic of Ireland shouldn't even be included in any of the maps showing the British Isles.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Billthekid77 ( talk • contribs) 07:32, 22 November 2006
Look here son, the term is not recognised by THE IRISH GOVERNMENT, it has been removed from all school atlases for the forthcoming year and the IRISH EMBASSY in LONDON is monitoring abuse of the term BRITISH ISLES when it includes IRELAND. can I make it any clearer for you there??—Preceding unsigned comment added by Billthekid77 ( talk • contribs) 08:30, 22 November 2006
The odd person might use it but it is not uused and will no longer be used in government buildings as stated by the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Dermot Ahern who is democratically elected and speaks on behalf of the Irish State and its people..enough said.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Billthekid77 ( talk • contribs) 08:36, 22 November 2006
If it is being removed from atlases from next year, and it is only one brand of atlas I hasten to add, then that means it is currently in Irish printed and produced atlases thereby it is indeed used. Do a search through the senate archives and you'll see that many members of the Irish government use the term in purely geographic terms.
Ben W Bell
talk
08:44, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Billthekid77, SIGN YOUR POSTS! The "controversy" is so widespread that an Irish schoolbook publisher didn't notice anything wrong with atlases using the term, and when A parent objected, the best evidence the news reporters could find of a controversy was - this article on Wikipedia! .. dave souza, talk 08:52, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Remark, there are many other atlases inside and outside Ireland that do not use the term, it's a non-argument. 86.42.132.84 15:16, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Ah the banner. BTW, hughs' point about ministers not speaking for the state is a very valid one, one I've tried to make before, but one he makes in a much more eloquent way than I ever did. Similarly his point two is important.
The banner started life as a link to British Isles terminology and was pretty much the same as the one at England, United Kingdom etc etc (in fact I even created a template. It was then changed at some point - in August maybe - to describe the controversy and link to the terminology here. I must admit I was always a little uncomfortable with it. I think dave's change is a good one. -- Robdurbar 11:26, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
The controversy is not dealt with enough in the article, given the fact that the Republic of Ireland doesn't consider itself to be part of the British Isles. But it's getting better. Billthekid77
Here is a term far, far, far, far, far more offensive to many more people than "the British Isles", use of which (by those who have no respect for their fellow man) can (rightly) lose one one's job or land one in prison, yet it doesn't have banners plastered over it to tiptoe around the sensitivities of a handful of editors. It calmly and factually states the offensiveness in an encyclopaedic tone within the contents of the article. No banner needed. Also, some editors need to consider that Wikipedia reports on things as they are, not how they should be or how they want them to be. The fact of the matter is that if this article devotes too much space to the controversy then it becomes a political POV-pushing essay. Why can't our Irish friends be as mature about this as our French ones when discussing the English Channel? [ [6]]. Gsd2000 14:28, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
<reduce indent> Thanks for the hint - just changed channel to find Dublin being described as scarcely Irish at all in its history, founded by invaders as a viking Blackpool, Guinness founded by an Anglo-Norman family and a statue of Britannia atop a building – Irish sounding guy says "secretly, Dublin is still a little bit British.. Dublin was the second city of the Empire", contested by the presenter who reckons that was Glasgow, and describes Dublin now as second to no-one. Well, the programme is claimed to be about the British Isles. ... dave souza, talk 20:19, 23 November 2006 (UTC) de- greengrocer's apostrophe .. dave souza, talk 11:00, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
What will happen if and when Scotland becomes independent? Will the phrase Great Britain and Ireland have to be amended? Will the Scots try to repudiade geography? Or are they a bit more sensible than that? TharkunColl 17:08, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
<reduce indent> Tharkuncoll and others - don´t you realise that even in the event of Scotland leaving the UK (which is not entirely implausible) it´s not geography that would be repudiated, just the name. Names are "repudiated" all the time. Batavia, Bombay, Burma, Rhodesia, Dingle, etc.,etc.,etc. (I wish people would read the page and the archives...right now I am reminded of a song from the past..."you spin me right round baby right round like a record baby right round round round.) Hughsheehy (still on a keyboard with no tildes)
Meantime, on the British Isles page, we could note the issue and move on to describe the geography, climate, flora and fauna of the various islands and (heaven help me) maybe even mention history. We could cover alternative terms in the section on alternative terms and if anyone wants to write a page on "Britain and Ireland" or the "Anglo-Celtic Isles" they can do so. I believe pages for some of the alternative terms are long in place. hughsheehy (sorry, still no tildes)
The section detailing Google hits for "Britain and Ireland" as against "British Isles" is useless, meaningless rubbish - should we take it out? The term "Britain and Ireland" will cover many instances of use not intended as a replacement for "British Isles", e.g. English is spoken in Britain and Ireland. The reference to the BBC site using the term "British Isles and Ireland" is also worthless. All it demonstrates is ignorance on the part of the writer. Arcturus 23:48, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
(UTC)
Summary of Google Hits
Rank | Territory | Google Hits |
---|---|---|
1 | England | 310,000,000 |
2 | Ireland | 233,000,000 |
3 | Scotland | 116,000,000 |
4 | Wales | 111,000,000 |
5 | "British Isles" | 1,920,000 |
6 | "Britain and Ireland" | 1,230,000 |
86.42.147.234 00:43, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
(Remove indent) Google can certainly be used, as pointed out by Rob - policy - in certain circumstances. And from that page: "See Further judgment: the Google test checks popular usage, not correctness. For example, a search for the incorrect Charles Windsor gives 10 times more results than the correct Charles Mountbatten-Windsor." If the Google results were only only going to be slightly off, fair enough. But that clearly won't be the case. A search for "British Isles" returns x. A search for "Britain and Ireland", for example, will return y. But the pages containing y will include many different contexts where the term is clearly not being used as a replacement or alternative to "British Isles": "The EU consists of France, Germany... Britain and Ireland." "There were storms over Northern France, Britain and Ireland." "The respective ministers from Briatin and Ireland met to discuss the St. Andrews Agreement." And so on. The y result will therefore contain a vast number of false results. Putting it into an encyclopedia (even with a footnote saying basically "This result is wrong") is pointless. Again, this has already been debated on these talk pages. Certainly the sentence on "Several major Irish newspapers..." can be included - if you can cite sources. Bastun 13:53, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
<reduce indent> Again, having read all the policies and guidelines, I disagree. The NOR policy states that something is NOR if;
* It introduces a theory or method of solution; * It introduces original ideas; * It defines new terms; * It provides or presumes new definitions of pre-existing terms; * It introduces an argument, without citing a reputable source for that argument, that purports to refute or support another idea, theory, argument, or position; * It introduces an analysis or synthesis of established facts, ideas, opinions, or arguments in a way that builds a particular case favored by the editor, without attributing that analysis or synthesis to a reputable source; * It introduces or uses neologisms, without attributing the neologism to a reputable source.
The only possible count would be number 5. First, I don´t believe that I was trying to introduce an "argument", and in any case then the only question is then whether google hits are a "reputable source". All I was trying to do is provide some justification for a list of alternative terms, and Google´s guideline seems to apply to that and approve that kind of use.
So, again, the paragraph I entered (and which has since been replaced with entirely unsupported text) was meant to reorder the alternative terms so that their listing reflected their frequency of usage. That shouldn´t be a difficult subject and I think the paragraph met that need, and meantime it should not be difficult to agree that the listing/ranking was approx right. I´m open to suggestions on how to do it, but am not happy with the previous or current situation where there is text with NO SOURCE AT ALL. Hughsheehy 20:15, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm not entirely convinced by the OR argument, but onnly really because I really don't understand that policy. I don't like it cos its bad style and because I think there's a big difference between using google to present arguments here, and quoting it in the article.
I do agree that a source would be preferable here but I think there could be a better way of doing this. Robdurbar 22:46, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
Google search for "british isles" comes up 1,990,000, from which in all fairness we must subtract 27,400 for the (absurd) phrase "british isles and ireland", leaving 1,962,600. "britain and ireland" comes up with 1,280,000, but in strict accuracy we must distinguish this from the phrase "great britain and ireland", which is after all different, which comes up with 954,000, leaving just 326,000. In surprise second place, therefore, is Great Britain and Ireland. It still suffers from all the problems concerned with collective nouns discussed above, but one thing that we can remove is all instances where it occurs as part of the historical term "united kingdom of great britain and ireland", which comes up as 115,000, leaving just 839,000. Therefore, British Isles is considerably more than twice as popular as its nearest rival (Great Britain and Ireland), even ignoring the unknown number of times that Great Britain, and Ireland, are used as two separate nouns. TharkunColl 17:24, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
I believe that Thark has unsettled the symmetry of the article. A contentious article as such needs that certain symmetry, so I reverted his edits. MelForbes 01:09, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
<reduce indent> "Tiny" and "utterly" are unsupported modifiers....even by reference to google hits :-)) Meantime there may (or may not) be a minority. If it is a minority it may or may not be a tiny one. We'll probably get towards the facts of it by looking at usage. The space given to the fact that there is controversy may be excessive (or not). In any case, as I said before, to come with a 15:1 argument about the population of the UK vs the population of the Republic of Ireland is designed to validate the views of the most extreme nationalists and is (IMHO) unhelpful. Any time that "I'm bigger than you" is the only argument is likely to be unhelpful. This appears to be a situation where at least some appreciable fraction of a neighbouring country is saying "hey, we don't like that term". Perhaps a response of "I don't care about what you think, I prefer to refer to the authority of 2000 year old Greek guy" might not be such a sensitive response. It's been mentioned here several times and it's not a perfect analog, but "nigger" has a long classical history as a word and was initially only rejected by a (tiny) minority of the people it was applied to. Now, "British" and "nigger" are not equivalent, but the idea that respect for people's feeling is important is relevant in both cases. I know that British people don't like to be referred to as UKish (pronounced Yuk-ish), so even if it might be an accurate representation of the name of the state as converted into a nationality, it's probably not polite. I live in Spain(Catalunya), so let's not even start with that one! Hughsheehy 19:32, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
I propose that we remove the "Perspectives in Ireland" section until such time as someone can be bothered to write a "Perspectives in Britain" section, which should be approximately 15 times longer to give fair weight to population. TharkunColl 00:24, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
What is wrong with the Irish perspectives bit is that it is given so much space. The RoI only accounts for 1 in 15 of the entire population of the British Isles, and not even the entire population of the RoI eschew the term. TharkunColl 00:41, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
"As a general rule, the use of the term British Isles to refer to the archipalego is common and uncontroversial within Great Britain" - shouldn't that say "United Kingdom"? Gsd2000 12:31, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
This is obviously an out-of-date, and outdated, term. In the first place and most importantly, it is now technical incorrect.
In general, it is no-longer generally, commercially, or academically used, and is a politically sensitive term for many in Ireland and Northern Ireland, and to others in Scotland and Wales.
It is considered a highly offensive term by many in both the North and South of Ireland. Those who support the term are often doing so because they are politically extremely polarised, or just polarised in historic argument to a small percentage of the people who dislike the term, while the general population has no affiliation with the name, and arguably never has.
The fact that greater focus is not giving to the fact the term is out-of-date (‘old and not useful or correct’ - cambridge.org) amounts to another very negative blur on Wikipedia. Wikipedia should be a dynamic factual international source, not one that has a place for relics of past British imperialism. The context of any ‘British Isles’ article should be historical. 86.42.173.232 21:38, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
Mel, some points: The mentions of James give historical perspective as to why there is a controversy at all. The term BI is not "highly" controversial in Ireland - for most people, it's not something they're bothered about. But lets not get into the debate about whether its "highly", "very", "somewhat" or "considered by some/many to be..." controversial and just leave it unqualified. 'Sovereignty' is an exception to the 'i before e' rule [7]- and I challenge you to find me any Irish citizen who actually believes "that the United Kingdom retains soveriegnty over the Republic." Bastun 01:45, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
The above opening sentence is a much truer and NPOV description. So Thark, you are amiss with your revert in that instance. MelForbes 13:47, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
'In Northern Ireland nationalists reject the term British Isles and use the awkward and ambiguous description these islands as an alternative, whereas unionists, when countering nationalist insistence on the territorial integrity of the island of Ireland, change the geographical frame of reference to that of the whole island-group that they call the British Isles, according to Guelke.
[...]The British government currently uses British Islands (as defined in the Interpretation Act, 1978) to refer to the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, together with the Crown Dependencies: the Bailiwicks of Jersey and of Guernsey (which in turn includes the smaller islands of Alderney, Herm and Sark) in the Channel Islands; and the Isle of Man. http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/British_Isles'
As can be seen above the term 'these islands' is used by nationalists and can be seen as equally POV, even more so if the normal dictionary definitions can be said to outline normal use of the term.
'British Isles
Noun 1. British IslesBritish Isles - Great Britain and Ireland and adjacent islands in the north Atlantic'
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/British%20Isles
'the British Isles noun
1. The group of islands consisting of Great Britain and Ireland, and all the other smaller islands around them, eg the Hebrides, Channel Islands and Isle of Man.' http://www.allwords.com/word-the%20British%20Isles.html
-I agree though that just using it to include Northern Island- as the British government does- is probably the most reasonable way to use it, as that part is part of the UK. Why argue with the UK governments' definition and most frequently accepted definitions? Surely to do so is far more politically slanted and POV than to use the 'real world'- and most dictionaries'- use and definition of the term Merkinsmum 09:07, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
TharkunColl has made a major edit to this page, deleting entire sections, without first building any consensus. Apart from moving references to the controversy, he has deleted whole sections on the origin of the term and surely broken lots of WP links. The addition of the new controvery page may - or may not - be a good idea, but it seems strange that it is done by TharkunColl, who has long asserted that the controversy is tiny and artificial and thus not even worthy of mention on the main page. Now, it is suddenly getting its own page. This seems like a bad faith edit. In addition, the main remnants of the page are now historical and political, which is strange for an entry on something that he (and others) have repeatedly said is a non-political geographical term. These changes may need to be reverted. Hughsheehy 16:21, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
(Reduce indent) Seems logical. The contoversy is highlighted right at the start, leads to further information specifically on the controversy, and yet no longer dominates the article. Good idea. Bastun 23:55, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
Some editors sit all day at their computers watching for any change in the British Isles page. Well, I'm not going to keep you entertained. 86.42.131.109 23:03, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
Well I'm not going to agree that its an edit I'd paticularly agree with but if consensus is developing then who am I to disagree?
What I would now suggest, though, is that a summary paragraph is needed here. We can then perhaps remove the slightly unstylish links from the intro (or at least pipelink them!). I'll have a play around anyway. -- Robdurbar 11:51, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
The new article British Isles (controversy) has been nominated for Template talk:Did you know (and not by me, either). I suggest that any further discussion should take place on the new article's own talkpage. TharkunColl 16:40, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
Hmm. Rhode Islander 11:56, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
Hi- I just want to comment that the name British attached to anything is an old throw back to the days when the rape of other countries made the British strong enough to impose a will on vast swathes of the world. There is nothing British about where i am from... though i have heard that about 200k britons live on Ireland and a welcome to them! simply this then - Ireland is not British (never was - if you consider the name as based on celtic peoples, the ancient Irish coming from differnet stock as the British). I dont know anyone who uses the term on this side of the Irish Sea - and truth be told i wouldnt use it without thinking of centuries of struggle oppression and warfare. so for the people who commented that minority opinion on this should be sidelined i would remind them the minority is the only other independent country of a pair. but having said all that... synonyms are common in all languages - you can call it the british isles if you fancy being childish and can't give up the "old empire", and we'll simply not refer to any geographical association between us and ye. Ireland and Britain covers it just aswell for me.
To the editors - do not edit too heavily as its a fair comment - unfortunately when people are involved differences regularly appear. the term British Isles is offensive.
Not my comment. I just moved it here from the top of the page. Bastun 14:18, 20 December 2006 (UTC) ]
I find this section a little confusing ... The island-group is made up of more than 6,000 islands, the two biggest being Great Britain and Ireland. Great Britain, to the east, covers 83,698 square miles (216,777 km²), over half of the total landmass of the group; Ireland, to the west, covers 32,589 square miles (84,406 km²). The other larger islands are situated to the north and west of the group, in the Hebrides and Shetland Islands. ... It's the last sentence: first the Hebrides and Shetland are not "to the north and west of the group" The may be north but certainly not west. Second, if we are listing "other larger islands", what about Mainland Orkney, the Isle of Wight and Anglesey? Oh and the Isle of Man? To add to my confusion the next paragraph lists the islands starting with Great Britain and then an indented list implying that the smaller islands are part of Great Britain, which they may well be but the para I quote above states "The two biggest being Great Britain ..." Abtract 18:37, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
The current map is OK until you examine it closely. It appears to be an historical physical map of the British Isles of 1000 to 2000 years ago. Epping Forest is many times its existing size. Other forests are shown which have not existed for centuries. The Isle of Thanet is marked as an island. There are islands shown on the Kent/ Sussex border and around the Norfolk Broads where there is now dry land. The Wash is to big and the Fens are shown as marshes. Some of the terminology (xxx r. instead of river xxx, "Lake Country" instead of Lake District) suggest a non-British source. Where did this map come from? can somebody find a current physical map please. TiffaF 09:38, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
Just checking the references on Bede and Athelstan. First, as far as I can see, it is not at all clear that the reference to Bede is referring to the British Isles. The section quoted, where the text now indicates that the reference to "islands" means the British Isles reads "In his time the Arian heresy broke out, and although it was detected and condemned in the Council of Nice, yet it nevertheless infected not only all the churches of the continent, but even those of the islands, with its pestilent and fatal doctrines. " Second, the reference to Athelstan is not adequate to support the text inserted. The reference is to a translation page, which doesn´t cover the history. The assertion is that the various Kings submitted and gave fealty to Athelstan. The reference doesn´t support this. Hughsheehy 09:47, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
This implies that one must misunderstand the term to find it objectionable - which is not true. I understand the arguments about the age of the term and that it predates the Act of Union, but I still find the term objectionable, from an Irish perspective.
My objection is not to the etymology of the term, it is that the word "British" is immediately associated with the United Kingdom in most people's minds.
I would like to rephrase the above quoted statement to something like:
Any comments before I start a revert war? Windyjarhead 18:27, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
User:MelForbes has twice changed the first sentence to read: "The British Isles is a term sometimes used to refer to the group of islands off the northwest coast of continental Europe consisting of Great Britain, Ireland, and a number of smaller surrounding islands and islets." This, in my opinion, is ridiculous. The first time I reverted back to "The BI is the term used to refer to..." I put in the edit summary "By the same logic, paper is a term sometimes used to describe treated woodpulp" (something Mel also apparently disagrees with). Mel, we know you strongly dislike the term, but wishing something does not make it so. The term 'British Isles' is the term used by the majority of people on these islands - and the rest of the world - to describe them. If you want to bring in WP:V, I refer you to the various googlewars already reported on these talk pages. "... a term sometimes used..." simply does not cut it. Please stop. Bastun 00:52, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
I'd also add that this particular argument has already been had, a month ago. See the talk section #14 above, "The term British Isles is often used". Bastun 00:56, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
Hello people, I'm just catching up on the feast of fun that is the 'British Isles' page...having been involved in the extensive discussion about it over the past summer. I see that debate has reignited of late (sigh). I'm from the Republic and, as related previously, am one of many who greatly dislike and avoid the term 'British Isles'...for reasons that must be all too plain! I personally use 'these Islands' or 'Anglo-Celtic Isles' instead. Given the thoroughness expected of any encyclopedic entry and the sensitivity that so many of us Ireland have with the term, I am very glad that the following text appears in the opening paragraph of the article introduction: '...and is sometimes considered objectionable. The term is not used to any great extent in the Republic of Ireland.' I would word this rather more strongly, however this is just about acceptable - I would strongly oppose any further dilution. The link to a fuller explanation of the controversy is a good compromise, avoiding the bitter editing wars that were a feature of last summer. To user Bastun, to back up what several of my countrymen have been saying, I must emphasise that objection to this term is widespread in our country - ranging from avoidance of its use to outright derision at its utterance! This is mainstream feeling and cannot be dismissed as the preserve of any radical minority. I cannot stress how important this is to us. Possibly before you joined us, there was a debate and vote as to whether the then 'British Isles' (terminology)' article should be renamed 'Britain & Ireland (terminology)'. The result of the vote sadly was 25 to 16 against, or thereabouts. This does at least serve to show that the controversy over the term 'British Isles' is quite significant. A fair and reasonable article on the term has to have a clear reference to this controversy. Well done user MelForbes (and others) for fighting the corner this time...let me know if you want me to provide any further clarifications!:O) Kind regards & Happy New Year! Pconlon 18:20, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
It seems to me that it is critical in any good article to define terms at the outset, not as a quasi-footnote long after even diligent readers have given up wading through detail (a crime to which I plead guilty, as can be seen from the edit history). So I've moved the Terminology paragraph up to just after History of the term. -- Red King 17:30, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
Can I propose that changes to the opening paragraph are discussed here first and a consensus agreed before a change is implemented? Otherwise we'll just get into another edit/revert war, which noone wants. One user has already been temporarily blocked. My own opinion is that what needs to be in there are four clear statements:
I'm back to work in the morning so I'm not going to start now, but I'll have a look at it over lunch and propose a wording here. Bastun 01:02, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
"The term British Isles is sometimes considered objectionable, primarily in Ireland. It can also be misunderstood, particularly by those not from Ireland or Britain" (complete with existing footnotes and links). Bastun 11:19, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | → | Archive 15 |
Note to all users - This is a talk page for the British Isles article. When using this page please remember Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines. In paticular, a number of users have broken the following two guidelines on this page in the past; please make sure that you understand them:
-- Robdurbar 12:23, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
I know I've banged on about this before, but this article really is appalling. It's been hijacked by those who want to stir up the imaginary "controversy" about the terminology. The so-called controversy is mentioned in the banner heading and the lead. Then there's a whole section, which covers almost 50% of the article. I'm thinking all of this should be removed from this article and put elsewhere, either in a brand new article, or at the Terminology article. British Isles should only mention the so-called controversy in passing. This article should really be about geography. After all, the term is principally geographic. Arcturus 21:40, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
Rubbish do not tell me what I can, and can't, edit in Wikipedia. I'm going to remove the above instruction when others have seen what I'm on about. Arcturus 21:40, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
Can we have some proof that Pliny included Iceland in the term, or had even heard of it? TharkunColl 18:52, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Islands (and island groups) listed by Plny as part of the Britanniae:
The ones with question marks are frankly just guesswork by scholars. As for the islands supposedly off Britanny, we might as well (on just as much evidence) say that they are actually Jersey and Guernsey, thereby giving them a good modern justification for inclusion in the British Isles.
Much more interesting are those islands in the North Sea (German Sea), which almost certainly refer to islands now submerged (such as Lomea off Kent which was submerged in 1099). And Thule - what about Rockall?
Pliny also mentions a number of other places (Mictis, Scandia, Dumna, Nerigos), but he does not say that these were classed under the term Britanniae. TharkunColl 11:45, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
I found an embossed map of the British Isles in an 1877 book by William Moon, inventor of Moon type. I put the image at Embossing. -- Evertype· ✆ 11:01, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Has anyone got a source for Diodorus Siculus other than the scanned 1814 version of his Library at Google Books or the (incomplete) versions on the Gutenberg project? The reason I ask is that the first reference to the Preteni on the British Isles page is given as being from Pytheas and from Diodorus Siculus (footnote 4 on the page). As far as I can see, Pytheas work has not survived, and I read the online version of Diodorus Siculus, but this has a different interpretation of the text than is quoted in the footnote currently in the Wikipedia edit.
The footnote states "Diodorus Siculus c.50BC: 'those of the Pretani who inhabit the country called Iris (Ireland)'".
In the scanned 1814 version in Google Books, the text is slightly different and has a footnote that interprets the term Iris differently. The 1814 text talks about "the Britains that inhabit Iris", with a footnote explaining that Iris is "some part of Britain, then so called." (the text is in Book V, Chapter II, page 317 of the 1814 version, easily found on Google Books)
Anyone got another version handy? Does anyone know who put in the footnote? It's a pretty important difference in the context of properly sourcing the origin of the term but dear old Diodorus isn't easy to find online.. I know this was mentioned above, in the discussion on the term Pretani, but that discussion got complicated and I'm just looking for a source reference. hughsheehy 18:34, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
and one in support:Scholars agree that the name Pretani, which is thus implied as a general name for their inhabitants from at least the fourth century onwards, can hardly be identical with the name Britanni...It is a very probable conjecture that Caesar, finding himself at the outset of his expedition on the borders of a Belgic tribe called Britanni and knowing that the country he was about to invade had been lately colonized from Belgic Gaul, believed himself able to correct a widespread error by substituting the forms Britanni, Britannia, for Pretani and its Latinized correlative Pretania. Collingwood, R.G. (1990). Roman Britain and the English Settlements. pp. p. 31.
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One of the earliest surviving texts to use the Britannia name was written by the Greek geographer Diodorus Siculus and it is widely accepted that he was drawing heavily on Pytheas. The actual name used by Diodorus was Pretannia, which in the original source would have been Prettanikē...By the first century BC the P had become B and the nickname given to the people of the island by the Gaulish Celts began to be used by Classical authors as the name of the island – Britannia. Cunliffe, Barry (2003). The Celts: Very Short Introduction. pp. p. 86.
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<reduce indent> Again, thanks. I'm not so concerned if it's English or Latin (or German or Italian), but I'm still short on references to British Isles between the Romans and 1550 or so. Hughsheehy 17:24, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
This article has had various bits of text stuck up at the top of the article, before the lead, where you'd only ever normally to find a dab-header. Leaving aside the discussion about any controversy, and the scale of, this should be in the lead - not stuck right at the top of the article. Thanks/ wangi 22:03, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
I've removed the "Use outside Great Britain and Ireland" section as it's clearly original research: it makes no effort to cite a source making the claim, but only has links to two non-notable websites, both of which can be described as insensitive but little more. This is obviously a personal analysis or synthesis of published material that appears to advance a position the editor may hold .. dave souza, talk 23:18, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
I think what is at issue here is the literal meaing of British Isles - meaning the islands owned by Britian - which is disliked in Ireland. After 700 years+ of invasion, irish people are trying to distance themselves from statements that would suggest they are still under british control. This is fact, not opinion. So i would say either mention this in the article or rename it "West Europeon Isles" or something geographicly correct like that. -- 212.2.165.62 21:29, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
If the banner must be removed by the British Editors then the leading paragraphs must be reworked to reflect the fact that most people in Ireland do not class themselves in the British isles. British isles is/was political term, and probably still is. 86.42.132.84 23:54, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Agreed, the government of Ireland doesn't even respect or recognise the term "British Isles"...this should be smack bang in the introduction...the term is officially disputed...and for the Irish it doesn't include them. The Republic of Ireland shouldn't even be included in any of the maps showing the British Isles.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Billthekid77 ( talk • contribs) 07:32, 22 November 2006
Look here son, the term is not recognised by THE IRISH GOVERNMENT, it has been removed from all school atlases for the forthcoming year and the IRISH EMBASSY in LONDON is monitoring abuse of the term BRITISH ISLES when it includes IRELAND. can I make it any clearer for you there??—Preceding unsigned comment added by Billthekid77 ( talk • contribs) 08:30, 22 November 2006
The odd person might use it but it is not uused and will no longer be used in government buildings as stated by the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Dermot Ahern who is democratically elected and speaks on behalf of the Irish State and its people..enough said.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Billthekid77 ( talk • contribs) 08:36, 22 November 2006
If it is being removed from atlases from next year, and it is only one brand of atlas I hasten to add, then that means it is currently in Irish printed and produced atlases thereby it is indeed used. Do a search through the senate archives and you'll see that many members of the Irish government use the term in purely geographic terms.
Ben W Bell
talk
08:44, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Billthekid77, SIGN YOUR POSTS! The "controversy" is so widespread that an Irish schoolbook publisher didn't notice anything wrong with atlases using the term, and when A parent objected, the best evidence the news reporters could find of a controversy was - this article on Wikipedia! .. dave souza, talk 08:52, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Remark, there are many other atlases inside and outside Ireland that do not use the term, it's a non-argument. 86.42.132.84 15:16, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Ah the banner. BTW, hughs' point about ministers not speaking for the state is a very valid one, one I've tried to make before, but one he makes in a much more eloquent way than I ever did. Similarly his point two is important.
The banner started life as a link to British Isles terminology and was pretty much the same as the one at England, United Kingdom etc etc (in fact I even created a template. It was then changed at some point - in August maybe - to describe the controversy and link to the terminology here. I must admit I was always a little uncomfortable with it. I think dave's change is a good one. -- Robdurbar 11:26, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
The controversy is not dealt with enough in the article, given the fact that the Republic of Ireland doesn't consider itself to be part of the British Isles. But it's getting better. Billthekid77
Here is a term far, far, far, far, far more offensive to many more people than "the British Isles", use of which (by those who have no respect for their fellow man) can (rightly) lose one one's job or land one in prison, yet it doesn't have banners plastered over it to tiptoe around the sensitivities of a handful of editors. It calmly and factually states the offensiveness in an encyclopaedic tone within the contents of the article. No banner needed. Also, some editors need to consider that Wikipedia reports on things as they are, not how they should be or how they want them to be. The fact of the matter is that if this article devotes too much space to the controversy then it becomes a political POV-pushing essay. Why can't our Irish friends be as mature about this as our French ones when discussing the English Channel? [ [6]]. Gsd2000 14:28, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
<reduce indent> Thanks for the hint - just changed channel to find Dublin being described as scarcely Irish at all in its history, founded by invaders as a viking Blackpool, Guinness founded by an Anglo-Norman family and a statue of Britannia atop a building – Irish sounding guy says "secretly, Dublin is still a little bit British.. Dublin was the second city of the Empire", contested by the presenter who reckons that was Glasgow, and describes Dublin now as second to no-one. Well, the programme is claimed to be about the British Isles. ... dave souza, talk 20:19, 23 November 2006 (UTC) de- greengrocer's apostrophe .. dave souza, talk 11:00, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
What will happen if and when Scotland becomes independent? Will the phrase Great Britain and Ireland have to be amended? Will the Scots try to repudiade geography? Or are they a bit more sensible than that? TharkunColl 17:08, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
<reduce indent> Tharkuncoll and others - don´t you realise that even in the event of Scotland leaving the UK (which is not entirely implausible) it´s not geography that would be repudiated, just the name. Names are "repudiated" all the time. Batavia, Bombay, Burma, Rhodesia, Dingle, etc.,etc.,etc. (I wish people would read the page and the archives...right now I am reminded of a song from the past..."you spin me right round baby right round like a record baby right round round round.) Hughsheehy (still on a keyboard with no tildes)
Meantime, on the British Isles page, we could note the issue and move on to describe the geography, climate, flora and fauna of the various islands and (heaven help me) maybe even mention history. We could cover alternative terms in the section on alternative terms and if anyone wants to write a page on "Britain and Ireland" or the "Anglo-Celtic Isles" they can do so. I believe pages for some of the alternative terms are long in place. hughsheehy (sorry, still no tildes)
The section detailing Google hits for "Britain and Ireland" as against "British Isles" is useless, meaningless rubbish - should we take it out? The term "Britain and Ireland" will cover many instances of use not intended as a replacement for "British Isles", e.g. English is spoken in Britain and Ireland. The reference to the BBC site using the term "British Isles and Ireland" is also worthless. All it demonstrates is ignorance on the part of the writer. Arcturus 23:48, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
(UTC)
Summary of Google Hits
Rank | Territory | Google Hits |
---|---|---|
1 | England | 310,000,000 |
2 | Ireland | 233,000,000 |
3 | Scotland | 116,000,000 |
4 | Wales | 111,000,000 |
5 | "British Isles" | 1,920,000 |
6 | "Britain and Ireland" | 1,230,000 |
86.42.147.234 00:43, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
(Remove indent) Google can certainly be used, as pointed out by Rob - policy - in certain circumstances. And from that page: "See Further judgment: the Google test checks popular usage, not correctness. For example, a search for the incorrect Charles Windsor gives 10 times more results than the correct Charles Mountbatten-Windsor." If the Google results were only only going to be slightly off, fair enough. But that clearly won't be the case. A search for "British Isles" returns x. A search for "Britain and Ireland", for example, will return y. But the pages containing y will include many different contexts where the term is clearly not being used as a replacement or alternative to "British Isles": "The EU consists of France, Germany... Britain and Ireland." "There were storms over Northern France, Britain and Ireland." "The respective ministers from Briatin and Ireland met to discuss the St. Andrews Agreement." And so on. The y result will therefore contain a vast number of false results. Putting it into an encyclopedia (even with a footnote saying basically "This result is wrong") is pointless. Again, this has already been debated on these talk pages. Certainly the sentence on "Several major Irish newspapers..." can be included - if you can cite sources. Bastun 13:53, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
<reduce indent> Again, having read all the policies and guidelines, I disagree. The NOR policy states that something is NOR if;
* It introduces a theory or method of solution; * It introduces original ideas; * It defines new terms; * It provides or presumes new definitions of pre-existing terms; * It introduces an argument, without citing a reputable source for that argument, that purports to refute or support another idea, theory, argument, or position; * It introduces an analysis or synthesis of established facts, ideas, opinions, or arguments in a way that builds a particular case favored by the editor, without attributing that analysis or synthesis to a reputable source; * It introduces or uses neologisms, without attributing the neologism to a reputable source.
The only possible count would be number 5. First, I don´t believe that I was trying to introduce an "argument", and in any case then the only question is then whether google hits are a "reputable source". All I was trying to do is provide some justification for a list of alternative terms, and Google´s guideline seems to apply to that and approve that kind of use.
So, again, the paragraph I entered (and which has since been replaced with entirely unsupported text) was meant to reorder the alternative terms so that their listing reflected their frequency of usage. That shouldn´t be a difficult subject and I think the paragraph met that need, and meantime it should not be difficult to agree that the listing/ranking was approx right. I´m open to suggestions on how to do it, but am not happy with the previous or current situation where there is text with NO SOURCE AT ALL. Hughsheehy 20:15, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm not entirely convinced by the OR argument, but onnly really because I really don't understand that policy. I don't like it cos its bad style and because I think there's a big difference between using google to present arguments here, and quoting it in the article.
I do agree that a source would be preferable here but I think there could be a better way of doing this. Robdurbar 22:46, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
Google search for "british isles" comes up 1,990,000, from which in all fairness we must subtract 27,400 for the (absurd) phrase "british isles and ireland", leaving 1,962,600. "britain and ireland" comes up with 1,280,000, but in strict accuracy we must distinguish this from the phrase "great britain and ireland", which is after all different, which comes up with 954,000, leaving just 326,000. In surprise second place, therefore, is Great Britain and Ireland. It still suffers from all the problems concerned with collective nouns discussed above, but one thing that we can remove is all instances where it occurs as part of the historical term "united kingdom of great britain and ireland", which comes up as 115,000, leaving just 839,000. Therefore, British Isles is considerably more than twice as popular as its nearest rival (Great Britain and Ireland), even ignoring the unknown number of times that Great Britain, and Ireland, are used as two separate nouns. TharkunColl 17:24, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
I believe that Thark has unsettled the symmetry of the article. A contentious article as such needs that certain symmetry, so I reverted his edits. MelForbes 01:09, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
<reduce indent> "Tiny" and "utterly" are unsupported modifiers....even by reference to google hits :-)) Meantime there may (or may not) be a minority. If it is a minority it may or may not be a tiny one. We'll probably get towards the facts of it by looking at usage. The space given to the fact that there is controversy may be excessive (or not). In any case, as I said before, to come with a 15:1 argument about the population of the UK vs the population of the Republic of Ireland is designed to validate the views of the most extreme nationalists and is (IMHO) unhelpful. Any time that "I'm bigger than you" is the only argument is likely to be unhelpful. This appears to be a situation where at least some appreciable fraction of a neighbouring country is saying "hey, we don't like that term". Perhaps a response of "I don't care about what you think, I prefer to refer to the authority of 2000 year old Greek guy" might not be such a sensitive response. It's been mentioned here several times and it's not a perfect analog, but "nigger" has a long classical history as a word and was initially only rejected by a (tiny) minority of the people it was applied to. Now, "British" and "nigger" are not equivalent, but the idea that respect for people's feeling is important is relevant in both cases. I know that British people don't like to be referred to as UKish (pronounced Yuk-ish), so even if it might be an accurate representation of the name of the state as converted into a nationality, it's probably not polite. I live in Spain(Catalunya), so let's not even start with that one! Hughsheehy 19:32, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
I propose that we remove the "Perspectives in Ireland" section until such time as someone can be bothered to write a "Perspectives in Britain" section, which should be approximately 15 times longer to give fair weight to population. TharkunColl 00:24, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
What is wrong with the Irish perspectives bit is that it is given so much space. The RoI only accounts for 1 in 15 of the entire population of the British Isles, and not even the entire population of the RoI eschew the term. TharkunColl 00:41, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
"As a general rule, the use of the term British Isles to refer to the archipalego is common and uncontroversial within Great Britain" - shouldn't that say "United Kingdom"? Gsd2000 12:31, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
This is obviously an out-of-date, and outdated, term. In the first place and most importantly, it is now technical incorrect.
In general, it is no-longer generally, commercially, or academically used, and is a politically sensitive term for many in Ireland and Northern Ireland, and to others in Scotland and Wales.
It is considered a highly offensive term by many in both the North and South of Ireland. Those who support the term are often doing so because they are politically extremely polarised, or just polarised in historic argument to a small percentage of the people who dislike the term, while the general population has no affiliation with the name, and arguably never has.
The fact that greater focus is not giving to the fact the term is out-of-date (‘old and not useful or correct’ - cambridge.org) amounts to another very negative blur on Wikipedia. Wikipedia should be a dynamic factual international source, not one that has a place for relics of past British imperialism. The context of any ‘British Isles’ article should be historical. 86.42.173.232 21:38, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
Mel, some points: The mentions of James give historical perspective as to why there is a controversy at all. The term BI is not "highly" controversial in Ireland - for most people, it's not something they're bothered about. But lets not get into the debate about whether its "highly", "very", "somewhat" or "considered by some/many to be..." controversial and just leave it unqualified. 'Sovereignty' is an exception to the 'i before e' rule [7]- and I challenge you to find me any Irish citizen who actually believes "that the United Kingdom retains soveriegnty over the Republic." Bastun 01:45, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
The above opening sentence is a much truer and NPOV description. So Thark, you are amiss with your revert in that instance. MelForbes 13:47, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
'In Northern Ireland nationalists reject the term British Isles and use the awkward and ambiguous description these islands as an alternative, whereas unionists, when countering nationalist insistence on the territorial integrity of the island of Ireland, change the geographical frame of reference to that of the whole island-group that they call the British Isles, according to Guelke.
[...]The British government currently uses British Islands (as defined in the Interpretation Act, 1978) to refer to the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, together with the Crown Dependencies: the Bailiwicks of Jersey and of Guernsey (which in turn includes the smaller islands of Alderney, Herm and Sark) in the Channel Islands; and the Isle of Man. http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/British_Isles'
As can be seen above the term 'these islands' is used by nationalists and can be seen as equally POV, even more so if the normal dictionary definitions can be said to outline normal use of the term.
'British Isles
Noun 1. British IslesBritish Isles - Great Britain and Ireland and adjacent islands in the north Atlantic'
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/British%20Isles
'the British Isles noun
1. The group of islands consisting of Great Britain and Ireland, and all the other smaller islands around them, eg the Hebrides, Channel Islands and Isle of Man.' http://www.allwords.com/word-the%20British%20Isles.html
-I agree though that just using it to include Northern Island- as the British government does- is probably the most reasonable way to use it, as that part is part of the UK. Why argue with the UK governments' definition and most frequently accepted definitions? Surely to do so is far more politically slanted and POV than to use the 'real world'- and most dictionaries'- use and definition of the term Merkinsmum 09:07, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
TharkunColl has made a major edit to this page, deleting entire sections, without first building any consensus. Apart from moving references to the controversy, he has deleted whole sections on the origin of the term and surely broken lots of WP links. The addition of the new controvery page may - or may not - be a good idea, but it seems strange that it is done by TharkunColl, who has long asserted that the controversy is tiny and artificial and thus not even worthy of mention on the main page. Now, it is suddenly getting its own page. This seems like a bad faith edit. In addition, the main remnants of the page are now historical and political, which is strange for an entry on something that he (and others) have repeatedly said is a non-political geographical term. These changes may need to be reverted. Hughsheehy 16:21, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
(Reduce indent) Seems logical. The contoversy is highlighted right at the start, leads to further information specifically on the controversy, and yet no longer dominates the article. Good idea. Bastun 23:55, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
Some editors sit all day at their computers watching for any change in the British Isles page. Well, I'm not going to keep you entertained. 86.42.131.109 23:03, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
Well I'm not going to agree that its an edit I'd paticularly agree with but if consensus is developing then who am I to disagree?
What I would now suggest, though, is that a summary paragraph is needed here. We can then perhaps remove the slightly unstylish links from the intro (or at least pipelink them!). I'll have a play around anyway. -- Robdurbar 11:51, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
The new article British Isles (controversy) has been nominated for Template talk:Did you know (and not by me, either). I suggest that any further discussion should take place on the new article's own talkpage. TharkunColl 16:40, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
Hmm. Rhode Islander 11:56, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
Hi- I just want to comment that the name British attached to anything is an old throw back to the days when the rape of other countries made the British strong enough to impose a will on vast swathes of the world. There is nothing British about where i am from... though i have heard that about 200k britons live on Ireland and a welcome to them! simply this then - Ireland is not British (never was - if you consider the name as based on celtic peoples, the ancient Irish coming from differnet stock as the British). I dont know anyone who uses the term on this side of the Irish Sea - and truth be told i wouldnt use it without thinking of centuries of struggle oppression and warfare. so for the people who commented that minority opinion on this should be sidelined i would remind them the minority is the only other independent country of a pair. but having said all that... synonyms are common in all languages - you can call it the british isles if you fancy being childish and can't give up the "old empire", and we'll simply not refer to any geographical association between us and ye. Ireland and Britain covers it just aswell for me.
To the editors - do not edit too heavily as its a fair comment - unfortunately when people are involved differences regularly appear. the term British Isles is offensive.
Not my comment. I just moved it here from the top of the page. Bastun 14:18, 20 December 2006 (UTC) ]
I find this section a little confusing ... The island-group is made up of more than 6,000 islands, the two biggest being Great Britain and Ireland. Great Britain, to the east, covers 83,698 square miles (216,777 km²), over half of the total landmass of the group; Ireland, to the west, covers 32,589 square miles (84,406 km²). The other larger islands are situated to the north and west of the group, in the Hebrides and Shetland Islands. ... It's the last sentence: first the Hebrides and Shetland are not "to the north and west of the group" The may be north but certainly not west. Second, if we are listing "other larger islands", what about Mainland Orkney, the Isle of Wight and Anglesey? Oh and the Isle of Man? To add to my confusion the next paragraph lists the islands starting with Great Britain and then an indented list implying that the smaller islands are part of Great Britain, which they may well be but the para I quote above states "The two biggest being Great Britain ..." Abtract 18:37, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
The current map is OK until you examine it closely. It appears to be an historical physical map of the British Isles of 1000 to 2000 years ago. Epping Forest is many times its existing size. Other forests are shown which have not existed for centuries. The Isle of Thanet is marked as an island. There are islands shown on the Kent/ Sussex border and around the Norfolk Broads where there is now dry land. The Wash is to big and the Fens are shown as marshes. Some of the terminology (xxx r. instead of river xxx, "Lake Country" instead of Lake District) suggest a non-British source. Where did this map come from? can somebody find a current physical map please. TiffaF 09:38, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
Just checking the references on Bede and Athelstan. First, as far as I can see, it is not at all clear that the reference to Bede is referring to the British Isles. The section quoted, where the text now indicates that the reference to "islands" means the British Isles reads "In his time the Arian heresy broke out, and although it was detected and condemned in the Council of Nice, yet it nevertheless infected not only all the churches of the continent, but even those of the islands, with its pestilent and fatal doctrines. " Second, the reference to Athelstan is not adequate to support the text inserted. The reference is to a translation page, which doesn´t cover the history. The assertion is that the various Kings submitted and gave fealty to Athelstan. The reference doesn´t support this. Hughsheehy 09:47, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
This implies that one must misunderstand the term to find it objectionable - which is not true. I understand the arguments about the age of the term and that it predates the Act of Union, but I still find the term objectionable, from an Irish perspective.
My objection is not to the etymology of the term, it is that the word "British" is immediately associated with the United Kingdom in most people's minds.
I would like to rephrase the above quoted statement to something like:
Any comments before I start a revert war? Windyjarhead 18:27, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
User:MelForbes has twice changed the first sentence to read: "The British Isles is a term sometimes used to refer to the group of islands off the northwest coast of continental Europe consisting of Great Britain, Ireland, and a number of smaller surrounding islands and islets." This, in my opinion, is ridiculous. The first time I reverted back to "The BI is the term used to refer to..." I put in the edit summary "By the same logic, paper is a term sometimes used to describe treated woodpulp" (something Mel also apparently disagrees with). Mel, we know you strongly dislike the term, but wishing something does not make it so. The term 'British Isles' is the term used by the majority of people on these islands - and the rest of the world - to describe them. If you want to bring in WP:V, I refer you to the various googlewars already reported on these talk pages. "... a term sometimes used..." simply does not cut it. Please stop. Bastun 00:52, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
I'd also add that this particular argument has already been had, a month ago. See the talk section #14 above, "The term British Isles is often used". Bastun 00:56, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
Hello people, I'm just catching up on the feast of fun that is the 'British Isles' page...having been involved in the extensive discussion about it over the past summer. I see that debate has reignited of late (sigh). I'm from the Republic and, as related previously, am one of many who greatly dislike and avoid the term 'British Isles'...for reasons that must be all too plain! I personally use 'these Islands' or 'Anglo-Celtic Isles' instead. Given the thoroughness expected of any encyclopedic entry and the sensitivity that so many of us Ireland have with the term, I am very glad that the following text appears in the opening paragraph of the article introduction: '...and is sometimes considered objectionable. The term is not used to any great extent in the Republic of Ireland.' I would word this rather more strongly, however this is just about acceptable - I would strongly oppose any further dilution. The link to a fuller explanation of the controversy is a good compromise, avoiding the bitter editing wars that were a feature of last summer. To user Bastun, to back up what several of my countrymen have been saying, I must emphasise that objection to this term is widespread in our country - ranging from avoidance of its use to outright derision at its utterance! This is mainstream feeling and cannot be dismissed as the preserve of any radical minority. I cannot stress how important this is to us. Possibly before you joined us, there was a debate and vote as to whether the then 'British Isles' (terminology)' article should be renamed 'Britain & Ireland (terminology)'. The result of the vote sadly was 25 to 16 against, or thereabouts. This does at least serve to show that the controversy over the term 'British Isles' is quite significant. A fair and reasonable article on the term has to have a clear reference to this controversy. Well done user MelForbes (and others) for fighting the corner this time...let me know if you want me to provide any further clarifications!:O) Kind regards & Happy New Year! Pconlon 18:20, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
It seems to me that it is critical in any good article to define terms at the outset, not as a quasi-footnote long after even diligent readers have given up wading through detail (a crime to which I plead guilty, as can be seen from the edit history). So I've moved the Terminology paragraph up to just after History of the term. -- Red King 17:30, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
Can I propose that changes to the opening paragraph are discussed here first and a consensus agreed before a change is implemented? Otherwise we'll just get into another edit/revert war, which noone wants. One user has already been temporarily blocked. My own opinion is that what needs to be in there are four clear statements:
I'm back to work in the morning so I'm not going to start now, but I'll have a look at it over lunch and propose a wording here. Bastun 01:02, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
"The term British Isles is sometimes considered objectionable, primarily in Ireland. It can also be misunderstood, particularly by those not from Ireland or Britain" (complete with existing footnotes and links). Bastun 11:19, 2 January 2007 (UTC)