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I see this to be nothing but an awful page move done in the middle of the night as it were. The title "Presidencies and provinces of British India" was chosen after a year-long RfC in 2008 and 2009, the discussion presided by admin @ Philip Baird Shearer: and steered by arbitrator (now retired) Nichalp. I will also post at WT:INDIA where the knowledgeable editors are completely unaware of this discussion; indeed I myself had forgotten because I did not think it has a chance. I am on vacation now. Contrast this presumptuous closing by an editor, @ No such user:, with no history of any contribution to Indian history with PBS's considerate, inclusive, shepherding of all the participants into achieving a consensus. The new page title, "British India," is not only historically inaccurate, but it also speaks to the worst kind of British irredentism, which is apparently still alive and well on Wikipedia. Not to mention that some brand-new editors (most likely sockpuppets of banned Wikipedia editors) who have a personal gripe against me (as exhibited in other discussions across WP in August, September, and October) have voted in support. I am frustrated. This move is awful, just awful, disastrously awful. Pinging some admins, seasoned India and Pakistan editors, : @ Vanamonde93, Doug Weller, Drmies, Titodutta, Sitush, Bishonen, RexxS, Kautilya3, Saqib, RegentsPark, Abecedare, and SpacemanSpiff: Please do something. I am on vacation. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 14:26, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
And, @ Kautilya3:, will you be requesting all the historians and economic historians of colonial India (Indian, British, American, and Australasian; some in their graves) to change "British Raj" to "British India" in their writings as well? Off the top of my head, I can count many who make a distinction between "British India" and the "British Raj" (the latter meaning not only "British controlled India," which "British India" does not, but also the period of dominion (e.g. "He was born during the Raj"; you can't say, "He was born during British India.". The Raj can mean the government in power ("The Raj had a great interest in tea" means something quite different from "British India had a great interest in tea."). "British India" can mean the "British in India" (i.e. those domiciled or longlived in India, which "the Raj" never did): Here they are: Thomas R. Metcalf, Amiya Bagchi Christopher Bayly, Sumit Sarkar, Eric Stokes, Barbara D. Metcalf, Sugata Bose, Judith M. Brown, D. A. Low, Tirthankar Roy, Stanley Wolpert, P. J. Marshall, Ayesha Jalal, Percival Spear, Irfan Habib. You are not making a good argument. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 21:04, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
What is the following LearnIndology? Chopped liver?
From the OED search "British Raj": Showing 1-2 of 2 results in 2 entries Widen search? Find ‘British Raj’ in: » phrases (2)» definitions (11)» etymologies (0)» quotations (10)» full text (16) View as: List | TimelineSort by: Entry | Frequency | Date 1. British Raj in British, adj. and n. View full entry ...(see raj2)....
2. British Raj in raj, n. View full entry1857 ...spec. In full British Raj. Direct rule in India by the British (18581947); this period of dominion. Often with the. Also in extended use:... I will desist from giving the long entries to avoid infringing on their copyright. Seriously, please don't waste people's time with false assertions. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 15:37, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
The absence of an overview article is not sufficient to shoehorn this article into that role when it has a clearly more limited scope– I agree with the general statement, but clearly more limited scope is in the eye of the beholder. This article's lead gives an overview of British involvement between 1612 and 1947; its sections briefly address scope of every phase; British India redirected here; and finally, it is linked from {{ Colonial India}} sidebar in a manner that indicates it's a WP:SUMMARYSTYLE article. Such setup is rather confusing, and the discussion is best summarized by RegentsPark's comment
If the term is imprecise, we should have an article outlining the dimensions of that imprecision. Even if it be a sort of extended disambiguation page. It does make sense that we shouldn't redirect British India to this Presidencies and Provinces of British India while also saying that the Presidencies and Provinces are not all of British India.
I agree with Johnbod, Vanamonde and RegentsPark. I agree that this a dry page. I agree also that there are various problems.
Zones of British governance in India, whether initially in the form of tenancies (granted by sovereign Indian rulers, such as the Mughals) or later of sovereignty (gained as a result of British conquests), had existed from 1612 to 1947. "British India" can apply to all.
With time, the British began to rule regions in India both "directly" (after annexing them) or "indirectly." Indirect rule began during Company rule in India when subsidiary alliances were signed allowing Indian rulers to retain control of internal affairs but only after ceding the defense, communication, and foreign affairs to the British. It became the model of British rule elsewhere in the non-European empire (southeast Asia, Africa).
Just before the Indian rebellion of 1857, most of India was under direct or indirect British rule. After the rebellion, especially after Victoria's Proclamation to the rulers and people of India, this dyarchy became formalized. The regions of indirect rule—commonly named " Princely States" (the terms "King" or "Queen" were reserved for the British sovereign)—were guaranteed by the British Crown (they could not be annexed for a more direct rule by the British); the regions of direct rule or crown rule (presided by a Viceroy) became the main ground of British direct intervention in India (whether of infrastructure: railways, roads, telegraph, canals, bridges, buildings (both functional and ostentatious), law and order, and so forth. This latter India was sometimes called "British India."
So Kashmir was never in British India, was never referred by the British to have been so (for it would have insinuated a disregard for Queen Victoria's personal guarantee to the Indian rulers); neither were Hyderabad, Mysore, the states of Rajputana, and 500 other Indian states, whose fabulously rich princes were educated at Eton and Harrow, Cambridge and Oxford, played polo and cricket, bought Rolls-Royces, ... but did not do much else.
With the passage of time, however, especially of post-colonial time, "British India" has acquired increasing meaning as a sociological term describing the lives, mores, customs, language, of the British in India. Thus the "language of British India" is the English spoken by the British in India in adaptation to their environment (whether by directly importing words from Indian vernaculars (e.g. "jungle," "dungaree," "pyjamas,")) or by creating neologisms (e.g. "hill station," "tiffin)). However, the language of British India never means "the language(s) spoken by Indians in British India," i.e. the Indians living in regions of India directly administered by the British. These are the kinds of issues that get in the way of a simple page move of the "regions or administrative units of governance," i.e. "Presidencies and provinces of India" to "British India," which is a loose-knit term of several meanings, some still evolving.
I should add that despite my initial outburst at @ No such user:, for which he has my apologies, my bigger gripe is against the Wikipedia page move process that allowed some editors to walk off the street and begin a page move cold, in the dead of night, without the courtesy first of a talk page post, let alone an RfC, or a post at the talk pages of WikiProjects India, Pakistan or Bangladesh. How does Wikipedia allow that? That process is demented. But no hurry. The page has probably long needed fixing. It will eventually get there.
Spurred by RegentPark's post, I had better start making the cranberry sauce. My responsibilities for the American ritual tomorrow, commonly rendered obscene in its modern observance, but perhaps saved this year by COVID, are that (I have the cranberries), chestnut stuffing (I have the chestnuts), and taking care of the cats—one of which is not doing so well, needing both steroids and isolation, the rest of which might leap up on the table, and all of which have wild cousin ancestors which roamed the woods here at the time of the Pilgrims mysterious appearance 400 years ago. So they know what the merry-making is worth. That quadricentennial is on December 18. All the best to everyone. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 01:05, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
British Raj to British Indian Empire. The OED mentions that the British Raj was in India, but we do not have the article about India that the British Raj was in. It certainly isn't the Republic of India. If we do that, this article can stay with its present name. Zakaria1978 ښه راغلاست ( talk) 17:42, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
Fowler, if you're not claiming WP: OWNERSHIP, then why would you reverse the creation of the British India article? [2] That was the ruling in the move discussion above, made by No such user [3] and supported here by Kautilya3, 1990'sguy, Zakaria1978, and myself. Undo what you just did or I can do it for you. LearnIndology ( talk) 14:02, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
LearnIndology, please don't overplay your reprieve. You have been on the verge of being topic banned from South Asia related topics.
(To the others) "British India" never means the "British Raj" except in newspapers articles written by generally clueless reporters, but never by scholars, never, especially, by historians. The "British Indian Empire" was never an official term, only "India," was, despite the Imperial Gazetteer of India (whose 26 volumes on my shelves you can see in that article's images) devoting the first four volumes to the "Indian Empire" (but not the British Indian Empire) (as Rjensen will tell you), and despite the "British Indian Empire" passports, you will see on the internet. For correct usage see the IOC page on the 1928 Summer Olympics highlights, or the Britannica page on the original members of the League of Nations, 1922, or the founding members of the International Labour Organization, 1922, or the Founding members of the United Nations, 1945. As RegentsPark and others have observed, had the British upon quitting India chosen to name the successor states Hindustan and Pakistan, there would have been no issue, no ambiguity. "India" would then have meant British Raj, unequivocally, that is. Bbut because of the ambiguity of the name "India," historians in the last 50 years have begun to use "British Raj" for the loose-knit "empire" between 1858 and 1947. As I've indicated in a discussion thread above, this term has been used by the major historians of colonial South Asia.
Besides, the cynical move by Disraeli to crown Victoria "Empress of India," much parodied by the Punch and Gladstone, happened in 1876 (see the image caption Bihar_famine_of_1873–74#Relief), not 1858, the year in which the British Raj began. British Raj is a widely used term, used by scholars for the last 40 years or more. Wikipedia is not a place for anachronistic page moves. Does Britannica have a page on "British India?" It does not. Does it have a page on the British Raj? Yes, it does. It is written by Stanley Wolpert. Again, the main meaning of "British India" is "Presidencies and provinces of India under British rule." But "British India" has important other meanings. They belong to "British India (disambiguation)" The other meanings are captured by books such as "Poetry of British India," "Romantic representations of British India" (Google their introductions and table of contents). Please discuss, but please don't make any hurried page moves. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 14:16, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
That usage was defined by an act of the British Parliament. Note, in particular the margin note, "The States under British suzerainty are in "India," but not in "British India." Thus Kashmir, a princely state, was never in British India; contrast that with the Bombay Presidency, which always was. I apologize to Johnbod and Kautilya3 for losing my cool, but in all honesty, the users LearnIndology and Zakaria1978 are not here in good faith. They have been opposing me across a wide range of topics, Talk:Urdu, Talk:Sanskrit, ... I'm forgetting the names now. I say, "X." They appear, out of the blue, as Tweedledum and Tweedledee, and reply, "Not-X." Some admin please give them another warning. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 15:50, 27 November 2020 (UTC)India, lying within the limits thus defined, consists of two parts, British India and the territories of Native chiefs, or to use the more common phrase, Native States. Parliament in the Interpretation Act of 1889 (52 & 53 Vict. cap. 63, sec. 18) has adopted the following definitions; ‘The expression British India shall mean all territories and places within Her Majesty’s dominions which are for the time being governed by Her Majesty through the Governor-General of India, or through any Governor or other officer subordinate to the Governor-General of India. The expression India shall mean British India together with any territories of any Native Prince ..." (See Imperial Gazeteer of India (Indian Empire: Administrative, pages 59 and 60).
Fowler, Wikipedia involves community-wide discussion and everyone is welcome to participate here. My academic interest is in the Raj era and I am frequently consulted in my career to speak on this topic. While Fowler is trying to threaten me, he himself has canvassed editors here to overturn a clear consensus [4] and has bullied the closer to try to get him to reverse his decision. [5] I never came to the Sanskrit discussion as Fowler claims and I was not the only one opposing you on Urdu (everyone was against you). Can some admin please take action on Fowler for canvassing and ownership? Your user page says you are on a vacation, yet you actively editing every day; this is not in good faith and is deceptive. LearnIndology ( talk) 16:41, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
Tweedledum and Tweedledee-- that is not nice and clearly WP:NPA. Anyhow, pinging Khestwol to provide his expertise here on the subject. Zakaria1978 ښه راغلاست ( talk) 16:59, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
Thanks very much @ Johnbod: and @ Kautilya3: for the clarifying the discussion.
Here are my views. I don't see a good argument for a merge: "British India" into British Raj. "British India" has always been an informal term, with the primary meaning "Presidencies and provinces of India under British rule," but with important other meanings. To avoid the tautology involved in redirecting British India to Presidencies and provinces of British India, I see a good case for moving the latter to Presidencies and provinces of India under British rule. I believe the best solution thereafter is to expand British India (disambiguation) in the manner (or with the flavor) of British India (primary meaning and secondary meanings) or British India (denotation and connotations).
There is a much bigger danger in redirecting "British India" to the British Raj. People will begin to conflate the two. ( Aside: Many years ago, I had suggested that the British Raj page be moved to Crown rule in India, a counterpoint to Company rule in India, with a precedent of usage in the scholarly literature. However, it is too late for that now. In the intervening period, some 14 years, the term "British Raj" has come to be used widely in the same scholarly literature, in part driven by WP usage.) All the hard work of making the usage precise in all the colonial India related history pages will go to waste. Allow me one single example (with the understanding that there are hundreds of others).
In Peter Hardy's landmark book: Hardy, Peter (1972), The Muslims of British India, Cambridge University Press, ISBN 978-0-521-09783-3 "British India" applies both to the period 1757–1847 and 1858–1947, but only to regions of Company sovereignty (on behalf of the Crown) or British government sovereignty:
Without meaning to sound presumptuous, I have been thinking about this off and on for 12 years (admittedly more off than on). I don't see an easy solution other than expanding the British India dab page in the manner/flavor described above. I do see a good case for the page move I mentioned above. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 14:38, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
British colonial rule in India, loosely referred to as British India, began in 1612 with the establishment of trading posts on coastal locations, and gradually expanded, culminating in the formation of British Raj in 1858. The Raj (British Indian empire) lasted until 1947, when India acquired independence.In the narrow sense, British India refers only to those provinces under the direct British rule, excluding numerous suzerain princely states that were technically ruled by regional monarchs.
- ==Terminology==
- ==History==
- ===East India Company===
- ===Indian Rebellion of 1857===
- ===British Raj===
- ===Independence===
- ==Administrative division==
For starters, the sentence, "British colonial rule in India, loosely referred to as British India," is incorrect. There is no broad-sense meaning of British India that is geographically anything more than Presidencies and provinces of British India. The broad-sense connotations are not geographical; they are sociological, political, literary, and cultural. That broad-sense page outlined above cannot be called "British India." there is no precedent for that in the scholarly literature. I have already quoted and cited Hardy's book. I'm sure I can find dozens of others, all published by academic publishers. @ No such user: Sorry. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 17:06, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
You could call the broadscale or multiscale dab page British rule in India, which currently redirects to the Raj (which is incorrect). Fowler&fowler «Talk» 17:15, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
QUOTE: "British India" did not include the many princely states which continued to be ruled by Indian princes, though by the 19th century under British suzerainty—their defence, foreign relations, and communications relinquished to British authority and their internal rule closely monitored. END OF QUOTE
The above statement is much more true that the original crap that is there in Wikipedia pages.
The truth is that even though the British-Indian government did assure the security of the local kingdom, there was no conceding of sovereignty to British-India by at least some of the major kingdoms. This is very clearly mentioned in Travancore State Manual written by V Nagam Iyya. The issue in this regard was the judicial action on John Liddel, Commercial Agent at Alleppey by the Travancore Judiciary.
With regard to admitting that the local kingdoms were not part of British-India, it must be said that Wikipedia needs to correct the error in this regard that has been placed on various Wikipedia pages by the idiot Indian academic fools. 117.196.31.188 ( talk) 07:03, 31 December 2022 (UTC)
This is as the two terms are commonly used interchangeably. Disabled Lemon ( talk) 18:42, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
The name of the nation that existed till 1947 seems to be India. Or was British-India the official name? 117.213.3.170 ( talk) 23:17, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
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I see this to be nothing but an awful page move done in the middle of the night as it were. The title "Presidencies and provinces of British India" was chosen after a year-long RfC in 2008 and 2009, the discussion presided by admin @ Philip Baird Shearer: and steered by arbitrator (now retired) Nichalp. I will also post at WT:INDIA where the knowledgeable editors are completely unaware of this discussion; indeed I myself had forgotten because I did not think it has a chance. I am on vacation now. Contrast this presumptuous closing by an editor, @ No such user:, with no history of any contribution to Indian history with PBS's considerate, inclusive, shepherding of all the participants into achieving a consensus. The new page title, "British India," is not only historically inaccurate, but it also speaks to the worst kind of British irredentism, which is apparently still alive and well on Wikipedia. Not to mention that some brand-new editors (most likely sockpuppets of banned Wikipedia editors) who have a personal gripe against me (as exhibited in other discussions across WP in August, September, and October) have voted in support. I am frustrated. This move is awful, just awful, disastrously awful. Pinging some admins, seasoned India and Pakistan editors, : @ Vanamonde93, Doug Weller, Drmies, Titodutta, Sitush, Bishonen, RexxS, Kautilya3, Saqib, RegentsPark, Abecedare, and SpacemanSpiff: Please do something. I am on vacation. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 14:26, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
And, @ Kautilya3:, will you be requesting all the historians and economic historians of colonial India (Indian, British, American, and Australasian; some in their graves) to change "British Raj" to "British India" in their writings as well? Off the top of my head, I can count many who make a distinction between "British India" and the "British Raj" (the latter meaning not only "British controlled India," which "British India" does not, but also the period of dominion (e.g. "He was born during the Raj"; you can't say, "He was born during British India.". The Raj can mean the government in power ("The Raj had a great interest in tea" means something quite different from "British India had a great interest in tea."). "British India" can mean the "British in India" (i.e. those domiciled or longlived in India, which "the Raj" never did): Here they are: Thomas R. Metcalf, Amiya Bagchi Christopher Bayly, Sumit Sarkar, Eric Stokes, Barbara D. Metcalf, Sugata Bose, Judith M. Brown, D. A. Low, Tirthankar Roy, Stanley Wolpert, P. J. Marshall, Ayesha Jalal, Percival Spear, Irfan Habib. You are not making a good argument. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 21:04, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
What is the following LearnIndology? Chopped liver?
From the OED search "British Raj": Showing 1-2 of 2 results in 2 entries Widen search? Find ‘British Raj’ in: » phrases (2)» definitions (11)» etymologies (0)» quotations (10)» full text (16) View as: List | TimelineSort by: Entry | Frequency | Date 1. British Raj in British, adj. and n. View full entry ...(see raj2)....
2. British Raj in raj, n. View full entry1857 ...spec. In full British Raj. Direct rule in India by the British (18581947); this period of dominion. Often with the. Also in extended use:... I will desist from giving the long entries to avoid infringing on their copyright. Seriously, please don't waste people's time with false assertions. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 15:37, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
The absence of an overview article is not sufficient to shoehorn this article into that role when it has a clearly more limited scope– I agree with the general statement, but clearly more limited scope is in the eye of the beholder. This article's lead gives an overview of British involvement between 1612 and 1947; its sections briefly address scope of every phase; British India redirected here; and finally, it is linked from {{ Colonial India}} sidebar in a manner that indicates it's a WP:SUMMARYSTYLE article. Such setup is rather confusing, and the discussion is best summarized by RegentsPark's comment
If the term is imprecise, we should have an article outlining the dimensions of that imprecision. Even if it be a sort of extended disambiguation page. It does make sense that we shouldn't redirect British India to this Presidencies and Provinces of British India while also saying that the Presidencies and Provinces are not all of British India.
I agree with Johnbod, Vanamonde and RegentsPark. I agree that this a dry page. I agree also that there are various problems.
Zones of British governance in India, whether initially in the form of tenancies (granted by sovereign Indian rulers, such as the Mughals) or later of sovereignty (gained as a result of British conquests), had existed from 1612 to 1947. "British India" can apply to all.
With time, the British began to rule regions in India both "directly" (after annexing them) or "indirectly." Indirect rule began during Company rule in India when subsidiary alliances were signed allowing Indian rulers to retain control of internal affairs but only after ceding the defense, communication, and foreign affairs to the British. It became the model of British rule elsewhere in the non-European empire (southeast Asia, Africa).
Just before the Indian rebellion of 1857, most of India was under direct or indirect British rule. After the rebellion, especially after Victoria's Proclamation to the rulers and people of India, this dyarchy became formalized. The regions of indirect rule—commonly named " Princely States" (the terms "King" or "Queen" were reserved for the British sovereign)—were guaranteed by the British Crown (they could not be annexed for a more direct rule by the British); the regions of direct rule or crown rule (presided by a Viceroy) became the main ground of British direct intervention in India (whether of infrastructure: railways, roads, telegraph, canals, bridges, buildings (both functional and ostentatious), law and order, and so forth. This latter India was sometimes called "British India."
So Kashmir was never in British India, was never referred by the British to have been so (for it would have insinuated a disregard for Queen Victoria's personal guarantee to the Indian rulers); neither were Hyderabad, Mysore, the states of Rajputana, and 500 other Indian states, whose fabulously rich princes were educated at Eton and Harrow, Cambridge and Oxford, played polo and cricket, bought Rolls-Royces, ... but did not do much else.
With the passage of time, however, especially of post-colonial time, "British India" has acquired increasing meaning as a sociological term describing the lives, mores, customs, language, of the British in India. Thus the "language of British India" is the English spoken by the British in India in adaptation to their environment (whether by directly importing words from Indian vernaculars (e.g. "jungle," "dungaree," "pyjamas,")) or by creating neologisms (e.g. "hill station," "tiffin)). However, the language of British India never means "the language(s) spoken by Indians in British India," i.e. the Indians living in regions of India directly administered by the British. These are the kinds of issues that get in the way of a simple page move of the "regions or administrative units of governance," i.e. "Presidencies and provinces of India" to "British India," which is a loose-knit term of several meanings, some still evolving.
I should add that despite my initial outburst at @ No such user:, for which he has my apologies, my bigger gripe is against the Wikipedia page move process that allowed some editors to walk off the street and begin a page move cold, in the dead of night, without the courtesy first of a talk page post, let alone an RfC, or a post at the talk pages of WikiProjects India, Pakistan or Bangladesh. How does Wikipedia allow that? That process is demented. But no hurry. The page has probably long needed fixing. It will eventually get there.
Spurred by RegentPark's post, I had better start making the cranberry sauce. My responsibilities for the American ritual tomorrow, commonly rendered obscene in its modern observance, but perhaps saved this year by COVID, are that (I have the cranberries), chestnut stuffing (I have the chestnuts), and taking care of the cats—one of which is not doing so well, needing both steroids and isolation, the rest of which might leap up on the table, and all of which have wild cousin ancestors which roamed the woods here at the time of the Pilgrims mysterious appearance 400 years ago. So they know what the merry-making is worth. That quadricentennial is on December 18. All the best to everyone. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 01:05, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
British Raj to British Indian Empire. The OED mentions that the British Raj was in India, but we do not have the article about India that the British Raj was in. It certainly isn't the Republic of India. If we do that, this article can stay with its present name. Zakaria1978 ښه راغلاست ( talk) 17:42, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
Fowler, if you're not claiming WP: OWNERSHIP, then why would you reverse the creation of the British India article? [2] That was the ruling in the move discussion above, made by No such user [3] and supported here by Kautilya3, 1990'sguy, Zakaria1978, and myself. Undo what you just did or I can do it for you. LearnIndology ( talk) 14:02, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
LearnIndology, please don't overplay your reprieve. You have been on the verge of being topic banned from South Asia related topics.
(To the others) "British India" never means the "British Raj" except in newspapers articles written by generally clueless reporters, but never by scholars, never, especially, by historians. The "British Indian Empire" was never an official term, only "India," was, despite the Imperial Gazetteer of India (whose 26 volumes on my shelves you can see in that article's images) devoting the first four volumes to the "Indian Empire" (but not the British Indian Empire) (as Rjensen will tell you), and despite the "British Indian Empire" passports, you will see on the internet. For correct usage see the IOC page on the 1928 Summer Olympics highlights, or the Britannica page on the original members of the League of Nations, 1922, or the founding members of the International Labour Organization, 1922, or the Founding members of the United Nations, 1945. As RegentsPark and others have observed, had the British upon quitting India chosen to name the successor states Hindustan and Pakistan, there would have been no issue, no ambiguity. "India" would then have meant British Raj, unequivocally, that is. Bbut because of the ambiguity of the name "India," historians in the last 50 years have begun to use "British Raj" for the loose-knit "empire" between 1858 and 1947. As I've indicated in a discussion thread above, this term has been used by the major historians of colonial South Asia.
Besides, the cynical move by Disraeli to crown Victoria "Empress of India," much parodied by the Punch and Gladstone, happened in 1876 (see the image caption Bihar_famine_of_1873–74#Relief), not 1858, the year in which the British Raj began. British Raj is a widely used term, used by scholars for the last 40 years or more. Wikipedia is not a place for anachronistic page moves. Does Britannica have a page on "British India?" It does not. Does it have a page on the British Raj? Yes, it does. It is written by Stanley Wolpert. Again, the main meaning of "British India" is "Presidencies and provinces of India under British rule." But "British India" has important other meanings. They belong to "British India (disambiguation)" The other meanings are captured by books such as "Poetry of British India," "Romantic representations of British India" (Google their introductions and table of contents). Please discuss, but please don't make any hurried page moves. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 14:16, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
That usage was defined by an act of the British Parliament. Note, in particular the margin note, "The States under British suzerainty are in "India," but not in "British India." Thus Kashmir, a princely state, was never in British India; contrast that with the Bombay Presidency, which always was. I apologize to Johnbod and Kautilya3 for losing my cool, but in all honesty, the users LearnIndology and Zakaria1978 are not here in good faith. They have been opposing me across a wide range of topics, Talk:Urdu, Talk:Sanskrit, ... I'm forgetting the names now. I say, "X." They appear, out of the blue, as Tweedledum and Tweedledee, and reply, "Not-X." Some admin please give them another warning. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 15:50, 27 November 2020 (UTC)India, lying within the limits thus defined, consists of two parts, British India and the territories of Native chiefs, or to use the more common phrase, Native States. Parliament in the Interpretation Act of 1889 (52 & 53 Vict. cap. 63, sec. 18) has adopted the following definitions; ‘The expression British India shall mean all territories and places within Her Majesty’s dominions which are for the time being governed by Her Majesty through the Governor-General of India, or through any Governor or other officer subordinate to the Governor-General of India. The expression India shall mean British India together with any territories of any Native Prince ..." (See Imperial Gazeteer of India (Indian Empire: Administrative, pages 59 and 60).
Fowler, Wikipedia involves community-wide discussion and everyone is welcome to participate here. My academic interest is in the Raj era and I am frequently consulted in my career to speak on this topic. While Fowler is trying to threaten me, he himself has canvassed editors here to overturn a clear consensus [4] and has bullied the closer to try to get him to reverse his decision. [5] I never came to the Sanskrit discussion as Fowler claims and I was not the only one opposing you on Urdu (everyone was against you). Can some admin please take action on Fowler for canvassing and ownership? Your user page says you are on a vacation, yet you actively editing every day; this is not in good faith and is deceptive. LearnIndology ( talk) 16:41, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
Tweedledum and Tweedledee-- that is not nice and clearly WP:NPA. Anyhow, pinging Khestwol to provide his expertise here on the subject. Zakaria1978 ښه راغلاست ( talk) 16:59, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
Thanks very much @ Johnbod: and @ Kautilya3: for the clarifying the discussion.
Here are my views. I don't see a good argument for a merge: "British India" into British Raj. "British India" has always been an informal term, with the primary meaning "Presidencies and provinces of India under British rule," but with important other meanings. To avoid the tautology involved in redirecting British India to Presidencies and provinces of British India, I see a good case for moving the latter to Presidencies and provinces of India under British rule. I believe the best solution thereafter is to expand British India (disambiguation) in the manner (or with the flavor) of British India (primary meaning and secondary meanings) or British India (denotation and connotations).
There is a much bigger danger in redirecting "British India" to the British Raj. People will begin to conflate the two. ( Aside: Many years ago, I had suggested that the British Raj page be moved to Crown rule in India, a counterpoint to Company rule in India, with a precedent of usage in the scholarly literature. However, it is too late for that now. In the intervening period, some 14 years, the term "British Raj" has come to be used widely in the same scholarly literature, in part driven by WP usage.) All the hard work of making the usage precise in all the colonial India related history pages will go to waste. Allow me one single example (with the understanding that there are hundreds of others).
In Peter Hardy's landmark book: Hardy, Peter (1972), The Muslims of British India, Cambridge University Press, ISBN 978-0-521-09783-3 "British India" applies both to the period 1757–1847 and 1858–1947, but only to regions of Company sovereignty (on behalf of the Crown) or British government sovereignty:
Without meaning to sound presumptuous, I have been thinking about this off and on for 12 years (admittedly more off than on). I don't see an easy solution other than expanding the British India dab page in the manner/flavor described above. I do see a good case for the page move I mentioned above. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 14:38, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
British colonial rule in India, loosely referred to as British India, began in 1612 with the establishment of trading posts on coastal locations, and gradually expanded, culminating in the formation of British Raj in 1858. The Raj (British Indian empire) lasted until 1947, when India acquired independence.In the narrow sense, British India refers only to those provinces under the direct British rule, excluding numerous suzerain princely states that were technically ruled by regional monarchs.
- ==Terminology==
- ==History==
- ===East India Company===
- ===Indian Rebellion of 1857===
- ===British Raj===
- ===Independence===
- ==Administrative division==
For starters, the sentence, "British colonial rule in India, loosely referred to as British India," is incorrect. There is no broad-sense meaning of British India that is geographically anything more than Presidencies and provinces of British India. The broad-sense connotations are not geographical; they are sociological, political, literary, and cultural. That broad-sense page outlined above cannot be called "British India." there is no precedent for that in the scholarly literature. I have already quoted and cited Hardy's book. I'm sure I can find dozens of others, all published by academic publishers. @ No such user: Sorry. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 17:06, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
You could call the broadscale or multiscale dab page British rule in India, which currently redirects to the Raj (which is incorrect). Fowler&fowler «Talk» 17:15, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
QUOTE: "British India" did not include the many princely states which continued to be ruled by Indian princes, though by the 19th century under British suzerainty—their defence, foreign relations, and communications relinquished to British authority and their internal rule closely monitored. END OF QUOTE
The above statement is much more true that the original crap that is there in Wikipedia pages.
The truth is that even though the British-Indian government did assure the security of the local kingdom, there was no conceding of sovereignty to British-India by at least some of the major kingdoms. This is very clearly mentioned in Travancore State Manual written by V Nagam Iyya. The issue in this regard was the judicial action on John Liddel, Commercial Agent at Alleppey by the Travancore Judiciary.
With regard to admitting that the local kingdoms were not part of British-India, it must be said that Wikipedia needs to correct the error in this regard that has been placed on various Wikipedia pages by the idiot Indian academic fools. 117.196.31.188 ( talk) 07:03, 31 December 2022 (UTC)
This is as the two terms are commonly used interchangeably. Disabled Lemon ( talk) 18:42, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
The name of the nation that existed till 1947 seems to be India. Or was British-India the official name? 117.213.3.170 ( talk) 23:17, 24 January 2024 (UTC)