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The articles looking nice, but can I warn editors about the Stockport MBC web site? It's not always accurate, and you should take care when citing it. Best to cross-reference anything out of the ordinary that you use. Mr Stephen 19:05, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
This is in many ways a lovely article and I wish that I could list as a GA on sight, but I can't.
Having read through the article I'm now left with two choices, either to fail it or to put it on hold. Because I would like to be able to list this article as a GA I'm putting it on hold, but there's a good deal of work to be done on it yet; I've just given a few examples above. I would be very happy to work with the editors to help get this article up to GA, but as it stands I would have to fail the GA nomination on the grounds of prose, references, and copyright violations. -- Malleus Fatuarum 04:28, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
I'm still concerned about the capitalisation. I think that the word "hall" should only be capitalised when it's a part of "Bramhall Hall", not in sentences talking about the hall in general. The names of rooms also need to be given consistently. I'm quite happy, for instance to see "Banqueting Room" either capitalised or not, but if is is going to be capitalised then it should be done consistently. "The banqueting room, which leads off the Lesser Hall ...", "The chapel, opposite the Banqueting Room ...", "It was largely rebuilt with the withdrawing room ...", "The largest upstairs room is the Withdrawing Room ...". the inconsistency is a little jarring.
Talking about the chapel: "It was closed some time between 1869 and 1890, and later dismantled. In 1938 it was restored ...". Dismantled to me means that it was taken to pieces and removed somewhere, which is hard to reconcile with it later being restored.
"It was only in the 20th century that an effort was made to restore these paintings, but very little of this painting survived." I'm not clear which of the paintings this is referring to. How is it possible to restore both paintings, if one is painted over the other? Which of them is it saying that very little of it survives?
"On the west wall are written the Ten Commandments. Much of it has faded away now, and in doing so an even older painting ...". Should this say that the ten commandments are painted on the west wall, rather than written?
"The current Hall has not always been in the current location, having been built there around the fourteenth century." I think I know what you're trying to say here, that there was an earlier hall elsewhere? But the sentence seems to be suggesting that the present hall was built elsewhere and then moved to its present location.
I think that the lead is a little on the short side now, and probably ought to include a brief overview of the house itself. Method of constuction, main architectural features, that kind of thing.
I can't see anywhere in the article where it tells me what the hall is used for today. Is it a museum for instance?
The article's coming along quite nicely I think. Apart from the capitalisation issue it's mainly just some clarification on the points above that's needed. Cheers!
-- Malleus Fatuarum 02:39, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Following MF's concerns above, I printed the 19:54 9 Nov 07 version of the article with a view to improving it. I went to the library to see Dean, Bramall Hall: The Story of an Elizabethan Manor House. Below is a copy of part of that version; the text highlighted in red is directly copied (with some deletions) from p15 onwards of the book.
The floorplan is a copy of a figure on p5 of the book. Five minutes was enough to convince me that this article was far more than a minor reworking away from a GA. I propose that this article be reverted a long way. Mr Stephen 13:49, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
There are some commons compatible photos on flickr that are worth taking a look at. Some are a bit artsy, going for the black and white look, but this one shows a kind of panorama approaching the hall (although it may be too distorted for some tastes) and this one's good. Nev1 ( talk) 16:32, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
I suspect the tone, attribution and structure issues reflect the reliance of the article on two sources – Dean and the council. Finding others to mix in would certainly help here. Skomorokh 00:09, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
He was from Macey, Manche, in Avranches, and held his lands of Earl Hugh of Chester. He was succeeded by a Robert, and then by 1166 another Hamo (or Haimo). Strictly speaking it's not really correct to call him a baron, as those sorts of titles aren't really properly applied to William I's reign. Lord of the various manors, yes, but he wouldn't have been styled "Baron" and calling him that is an anachronism. Ealdgyth - Talk 01:03, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
The dates for the Chapel don't seem to add up. "Its earliest known use is in 1541" carries a strong implication that it opened around that time, but the existence of passion paintings would imply an older date; by 1541 the Reformation was in full bloom, and an aristocratic and ambitious family would no more have been commissioning Catholic paintings than they would have been building a mosque. (There is an alternative explanation - Lancashire was a hotbed of recusancy, sustained by the Ainscough family - but if the house were a recusant building, that would be such a significant part of the story I'd expect it to be one of the best known facts about the house.) – iride scent 13:07, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
On the subject of the chapel, it's sometimes "the chapel" and sometimes "the Chapel". To be consistent with other rooms like "the Library", I'd suggest sticking with "the Chapel". -- Malleus Fatuorum 19:08, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
I believe there are a few sentences that need to be clarified:
Thanks! Karanacs ( talk) 18:55, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
Bramall was first described/recorded in the Domeday Book, 1086. That's what it says. However, the names of two previous owners are stated, and its value in 1066 is also given, as well as a record of the manor passing to the Masseys in 1070.
That's three facts that predate the Domesday book. Where did these facts come from, if the place was neither recorded or described before 1086? Also, there is a statement that it dates from Saxon times and was first held by the Masseys in 1070. Somethings got to give, here. They can't both be true.
Amandajm ( talk) 10:29, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
OK. Then would it be possible to make it clear that this info actually comes from the Domesday book. That leaves the problem that it says that the land passed to the Masseys but it also says that the land was first held by the Masseys. The word first needs to go. Amandajm ( talk) 02:19, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
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Both these names are used in the caption to a pic, showing the Great Hall of the Tudor era, "as imagined'" by a later artist. None of this seems to be mentioned in the main article text. I noticed this because an IP editor substituted "Great Banqueting Hall" (aka Ballroom) with "Solar". I reverted, but must admit I'm now rather confused as to what's supposed to be what. Can someone with knowledge and sources sort this out? Though actually, it might simply be a matter of moving the pic into position opposite the relevant text. And moving the currently parenthetical "Ballroom" into first place in the caption. I'm crap with that sort of thing. Haploidavey ( talk) 09:25, 20 September 2016 (UTC)
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![]() | Bramall Hall is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so. | ||||||||||||
![]() | This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on December 11, 2009. | ||||||||||||
| |||||||||||||
Current status: Featured article |
![]() | This article is rated FA-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||
|
The articles looking nice, but can I warn editors about the Stockport MBC web site? It's not always accurate, and you should take care when citing it. Best to cross-reference anything out of the ordinary that you use. Mr Stephen 19:05, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
This is in many ways a lovely article and I wish that I could list as a GA on sight, but I can't.
Having read through the article I'm now left with two choices, either to fail it or to put it on hold. Because I would like to be able to list this article as a GA I'm putting it on hold, but there's a good deal of work to be done on it yet; I've just given a few examples above. I would be very happy to work with the editors to help get this article up to GA, but as it stands I would have to fail the GA nomination on the grounds of prose, references, and copyright violations. -- Malleus Fatuarum 04:28, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
I'm still concerned about the capitalisation. I think that the word "hall" should only be capitalised when it's a part of "Bramhall Hall", not in sentences talking about the hall in general. The names of rooms also need to be given consistently. I'm quite happy, for instance to see "Banqueting Room" either capitalised or not, but if is is going to be capitalised then it should be done consistently. "The banqueting room, which leads off the Lesser Hall ...", "The chapel, opposite the Banqueting Room ...", "It was largely rebuilt with the withdrawing room ...", "The largest upstairs room is the Withdrawing Room ...". the inconsistency is a little jarring.
Talking about the chapel: "It was closed some time between 1869 and 1890, and later dismantled. In 1938 it was restored ...". Dismantled to me means that it was taken to pieces and removed somewhere, which is hard to reconcile with it later being restored.
"It was only in the 20th century that an effort was made to restore these paintings, but very little of this painting survived." I'm not clear which of the paintings this is referring to. How is it possible to restore both paintings, if one is painted over the other? Which of them is it saying that very little of it survives?
"On the west wall are written the Ten Commandments. Much of it has faded away now, and in doing so an even older painting ...". Should this say that the ten commandments are painted on the west wall, rather than written?
"The current Hall has not always been in the current location, having been built there around the fourteenth century." I think I know what you're trying to say here, that there was an earlier hall elsewhere? But the sentence seems to be suggesting that the present hall was built elsewhere and then moved to its present location.
I think that the lead is a little on the short side now, and probably ought to include a brief overview of the house itself. Method of constuction, main architectural features, that kind of thing.
I can't see anywhere in the article where it tells me what the hall is used for today. Is it a museum for instance?
The article's coming along quite nicely I think. Apart from the capitalisation issue it's mainly just some clarification on the points above that's needed. Cheers!
-- Malleus Fatuarum 02:39, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Following MF's concerns above, I printed the 19:54 9 Nov 07 version of the article with a view to improving it. I went to the library to see Dean, Bramall Hall: The Story of an Elizabethan Manor House. Below is a copy of part of that version; the text highlighted in red is directly copied (with some deletions) from p15 onwards of the book.
The floorplan is a copy of a figure on p5 of the book. Five minutes was enough to convince me that this article was far more than a minor reworking away from a GA. I propose that this article be reverted a long way. Mr Stephen 13:49, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
There are some commons compatible photos on flickr that are worth taking a look at. Some are a bit artsy, going for the black and white look, but this one shows a kind of panorama approaching the hall (although it may be too distorted for some tastes) and this one's good. Nev1 ( talk) 16:32, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
I suspect the tone, attribution and structure issues reflect the reliance of the article on two sources – Dean and the council. Finding others to mix in would certainly help here. Skomorokh 00:09, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
He was from Macey, Manche, in Avranches, and held his lands of Earl Hugh of Chester. He was succeeded by a Robert, and then by 1166 another Hamo (or Haimo). Strictly speaking it's not really correct to call him a baron, as those sorts of titles aren't really properly applied to William I's reign. Lord of the various manors, yes, but he wouldn't have been styled "Baron" and calling him that is an anachronism. Ealdgyth - Talk 01:03, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
The dates for the Chapel don't seem to add up. "Its earliest known use is in 1541" carries a strong implication that it opened around that time, but the existence of passion paintings would imply an older date; by 1541 the Reformation was in full bloom, and an aristocratic and ambitious family would no more have been commissioning Catholic paintings than they would have been building a mosque. (There is an alternative explanation - Lancashire was a hotbed of recusancy, sustained by the Ainscough family - but if the house were a recusant building, that would be such a significant part of the story I'd expect it to be one of the best known facts about the house.) – iride scent 13:07, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
On the subject of the chapel, it's sometimes "the chapel" and sometimes "the Chapel". To be consistent with other rooms like "the Library", I'd suggest sticking with "the Chapel". -- Malleus Fatuorum 19:08, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
I believe there are a few sentences that need to be clarified:
Thanks! Karanacs ( talk) 18:55, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
Bramall was first described/recorded in the Domeday Book, 1086. That's what it says. However, the names of two previous owners are stated, and its value in 1066 is also given, as well as a record of the manor passing to the Masseys in 1070.
That's three facts that predate the Domesday book. Where did these facts come from, if the place was neither recorded or described before 1086? Also, there is a statement that it dates from Saxon times and was first held by the Masseys in 1070. Somethings got to give, here. They can't both be true.
Amandajm ( talk) 10:29, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
OK. Then would it be possible to make it clear that this info actually comes from the Domesday book. That leaves the problem that it says that the land passed to the Masseys but it also says that the land was first held by the Masseys. The word first needs to go. Amandajm ( talk) 02:19, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
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Fixed
Dave.Dunford (
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11:05, 20 September 2016 (UTC)
Both these names are used in the caption to a pic, showing the Great Hall of the Tudor era, "as imagined'" by a later artist. None of this seems to be mentioned in the main article text. I noticed this because an IP editor substituted "Great Banqueting Hall" (aka Ballroom) with "Solar". I reverted, but must admit I'm now rather confused as to what's supposed to be what. Can someone with knowledge and sources sort this out? Though actually, it might simply be a matter of moving the pic into position opposite the relevant text. And moving the currently parenthetical "Ballroom" into first place in the caption. I'm crap with that sort of thing. Haploidavey ( talk) 09:25, 20 September 2016 (UTC)
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