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Brahma-viharas fused with Brahmavihara. Article in need of a cleanup. -- Gakuro 09:56, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
I've reverted TonyMPNS addition of "The Buddha himself did not specify directing the apramanas towards oneself" because I found this text (for Mudita Meditation) saying "He should then break down the barriers by means of impartiality towards the four, that is, towards these three and himself". I do not have access to a copy of the Visuddhimagga, but if this translation is "correct", and if it says similarly for the other Brahma Viharas, then the note is uneccesary. See also similar discussion on Talk:Metta. I also do not think that what we read in the Pali Canon and in the other scriptures was what the Buddha actually said, but rather what was said, heard, remembered, recited, and eventually, after having gone through many generations of people, riciting to eachother, was written down, and copied many times, again by people with their own views and ideas of what might actually have happened (or even worse, with political agendas). What the Buddha said is almost certainly somehting like what is in the texts, but using them as word-by-word transcript of discourses is not something that I'd like to do. So, whether or not he said to direct the Metta, Karuna, Mudita, and Uppekha towards oneself or not will not be known, but some texts seems to point (at least partially) in that direction. I'd love to have access to Buddhaghosa's source material... --- Andkaha( talk) 16:08, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
I did an extensive cleanup. As part of it, I replaced "brahmaviharas" with the English term, "four immeasurables" in many places, to conform with Wikipedia's policy on avoiding jargon in your face. I hope this is useful. If "immeasurables is not the best term, perhaps others would like to substitute "sublime attitudes" or "sublime states" without sacrificing the other parts of the cleanup. "Immeasurables" is just the term I know, myself and can relate to. Moonsell ( talk) 14:00, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
Bresaurus (
talk) 08:11, 16 January 2014 (UTC)
Hi readers and editors.
Would you not classify "four immeasurables" as just another form of jargon? I would define jargon as anything that does not make sense in plain English. For me, it is introducing another piece jargon to explain the original jargon of "brahmavihara" and it does not shed any extra light, if anything I think it confuses the matter as the "four immeasurables" is one of many translations.
Here's some thoughts I gathered from wiki style guides:
"Use consistent vocabulary in parts that are technical and difficult." [1] --> I think this applies to keeping reference to the term consistent with the title of the article. I understand, of course, this also applies to just using the same term, which is no doubt your intention in the first place, Moonsell. So I dug a bit further...
"It is fine to include foreign terms as extra information, but avoid writing articles that can only be understood if the reader understands the foreign terms. Such words are equivalent to jargon, which should be explained somehow. In the English-language Wikipedia, the English form does not always have to come first: sometimes the non-English word is better as the main text, with the English in parentheses or set off by commas after it, and sometimes not. For example, see perestroika. Non-English words in the English-language Wikipedia should be written in italics." [2] -->The example article Perestroika uses perestroika as a term throughout the body text.
Also, link on jargon:
/info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Jargon#Technical_language (but I didn't find it particularly helpful for this talk topic!)
I think these wiki sources present a good case for using the term brahmavihara throughout the article, and Moonsell's idea of consistency is a valid one. If there are no objections to this over the next month, I will edit the article to consistently use brahmavihara.
References
{{
cite web}}
: Missing or empty |title=
(
help)
{{
cite web}}
: Missing or empty |title=
(
help)
The sutta on the benefits of loving-kindness mentioned in the Anguttara Nikaya, ends with a final benefit "(11) if one does not penetrate further, one fares on to the brahma world."(p. 1573 of Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation). This implies that the practice of loving-kindness can be a foundation that finally culminates in Nibbana/Nirvana. I am not certain whether there is any secondary literature that discusses this sutta, as it may be interpreted to contradict the passages mentioned in this article that the Brahmaviharas do not culminate in Nibbana.-- S Khemadhammo S Khemadhammo ( talk) 14:20, 2 September 2016 (UTC)
This is an issue with all 4 hence I prefer to discuss here.
a] Only the Mudita lemma had this, quite useful, section (near and far enemy qualities are used a lot in descriptions on these qualities).
b] The text was not really complete (it missed one of the two far enemies).
What I did was
c] Fix that text to make in line with Vishudimagga text, which basically is the source (itself extracted from lots of sutras and Abidhamma text by our historic friend 2000 years back in a tropical island not far from India).
d] Added that text as reference
e] As there both the 'near enemies' and 'far enemies' in Vishudhimagga are not always the clearest translation, used a link to an authorative Theravada site for alternate terms I use in the lemma.
If no objections/improvement/additions by 'around this weekend' I will repeat exact same trick, with of course creating the section, for Metta/Karuna/Upeksha lemmas.
Tnx,
Erikdr ( talk) 12:35, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
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I knew about Mudita, from trying to describe the powerful feels I have felt that were the antithesis of schadenfreude. But now I have been able to set Mudita in context, and recognize what I have been working on in myself that: of Metta and Karuna. Albeit I need to learn to treat myself with more compassion and so apply the same understanding to all those around me. However, it is upekkha that I most sorely lack, and I am certain it would benefit me greatly. In many ways I am the antithesis of upekkha. But by being made aware of the existence of upekkha has helped me understand how stoic ideas might be integrate into my life. What your work in this article has given me is a framework of understanding, and a path into deeper research and greater understanding should I wish to take it. sadly all I can offer you in return is the wish for you all to have long, interesting and joy filled lives. Thanks again! X-mass ( talk) 07:09, 2 September 2018 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Brahmavihara article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This
level-5 vital article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Brahma-viharas fused with Brahmavihara. Article in need of a cleanup. -- Gakuro 09:56, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
I've reverted TonyMPNS addition of "The Buddha himself did not specify directing the apramanas towards oneself" because I found this text (for Mudita Meditation) saying "He should then break down the barriers by means of impartiality towards the four, that is, towards these three and himself". I do not have access to a copy of the Visuddhimagga, but if this translation is "correct", and if it says similarly for the other Brahma Viharas, then the note is uneccesary. See also similar discussion on Talk:Metta. I also do not think that what we read in the Pali Canon and in the other scriptures was what the Buddha actually said, but rather what was said, heard, remembered, recited, and eventually, after having gone through many generations of people, riciting to eachother, was written down, and copied many times, again by people with their own views and ideas of what might actually have happened (or even worse, with political agendas). What the Buddha said is almost certainly somehting like what is in the texts, but using them as word-by-word transcript of discourses is not something that I'd like to do. So, whether or not he said to direct the Metta, Karuna, Mudita, and Uppekha towards oneself or not will not be known, but some texts seems to point (at least partially) in that direction. I'd love to have access to Buddhaghosa's source material... --- Andkaha( talk) 16:08, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
I did an extensive cleanup. As part of it, I replaced "brahmaviharas" with the English term, "four immeasurables" in many places, to conform with Wikipedia's policy on avoiding jargon in your face. I hope this is useful. If "immeasurables is not the best term, perhaps others would like to substitute "sublime attitudes" or "sublime states" without sacrificing the other parts of the cleanup. "Immeasurables" is just the term I know, myself and can relate to. Moonsell ( talk) 14:00, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
Bresaurus (
talk) 08:11, 16 January 2014 (UTC)
Hi readers and editors.
Would you not classify "four immeasurables" as just another form of jargon? I would define jargon as anything that does not make sense in plain English. For me, it is introducing another piece jargon to explain the original jargon of "brahmavihara" and it does not shed any extra light, if anything I think it confuses the matter as the "four immeasurables" is one of many translations.
Here's some thoughts I gathered from wiki style guides:
"Use consistent vocabulary in parts that are technical and difficult." [1] --> I think this applies to keeping reference to the term consistent with the title of the article. I understand, of course, this also applies to just using the same term, which is no doubt your intention in the first place, Moonsell. So I dug a bit further...
"It is fine to include foreign terms as extra information, but avoid writing articles that can only be understood if the reader understands the foreign terms. Such words are equivalent to jargon, which should be explained somehow. In the English-language Wikipedia, the English form does not always have to come first: sometimes the non-English word is better as the main text, with the English in parentheses or set off by commas after it, and sometimes not. For example, see perestroika. Non-English words in the English-language Wikipedia should be written in italics." [2] -->The example article Perestroika uses perestroika as a term throughout the body text.
Also, link on jargon:
/info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Jargon#Technical_language (but I didn't find it particularly helpful for this talk topic!)
I think these wiki sources present a good case for using the term brahmavihara throughout the article, and Moonsell's idea of consistency is a valid one. If there are no objections to this over the next month, I will edit the article to consistently use brahmavihara.
References
{{
cite web}}
: Missing or empty |title=
(
help)
{{
cite web}}
: Missing or empty |title=
(
help)
The sutta on the benefits of loving-kindness mentioned in the Anguttara Nikaya, ends with a final benefit "(11) if one does not penetrate further, one fares on to the brahma world."(p. 1573 of Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation). This implies that the practice of loving-kindness can be a foundation that finally culminates in Nibbana/Nirvana. I am not certain whether there is any secondary literature that discusses this sutta, as it may be interpreted to contradict the passages mentioned in this article that the Brahmaviharas do not culminate in Nibbana.-- S Khemadhammo S Khemadhammo ( talk) 14:20, 2 September 2016 (UTC)
This is an issue with all 4 hence I prefer to discuss here.
a] Only the Mudita lemma had this, quite useful, section (near and far enemy qualities are used a lot in descriptions on these qualities).
b] The text was not really complete (it missed one of the two far enemies).
What I did was
c] Fix that text to make in line with Vishudimagga text, which basically is the source (itself extracted from lots of sutras and Abidhamma text by our historic friend 2000 years back in a tropical island not far from India).
d] Added that text as reference
e] As there both the 'near enemies' and 'far enemies' in Vishudhimagga are not always the clearest translation, used a link to an authorative Theravada site for alternate terms I use in the lemma.
If no objections/improvement/additions by 'around this weekend' I will repeat exact same trick, with of course creating the section, for Metta/Karuna/Upeksha lemmas.
Tnx,
Erikdr ( talk) 12:35, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Brahmavihara. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 13:55, 24 July 2017 (UTC)
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(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 22:37, 7 January 2018 (UTC)
I knew about Mudita, from trying to describe the powerful feels I have felt that were the antithesis of schadenfreude. But now I have been able to set Mudita in context, and recognize what I have been working on in myself that: of Metta and Karuna. Albeit I need to learn to treat myself with more compassion and so apply the same understanding to all those around me. However, it is upekkha that I most sorely lack, and I am certain it would benefit me greatly. In many ways I am the antithesis of upekkha. But by being made aware of the existence of upekkha has helped me understand how stoic ideas might be integrate into my life. What your work in this article has given me is a framework of understanding, and a path into deeper research and greater understanding should I wish to take it. sadly all I can offer you in return is the wish for you all to have long, interesting and joy filled lives. Thanks again! X-mass ( talk) 07:09, 2 September 2018 (UTC)