![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | → | Archive 10 |
I have a request to shorten the PBK section and start their own page. The current entry is rather long and we could add more Bibliography/References to the article if we had more space available. I am not asking that they be deleted...only shortened and the full entry moved to their page with more room to expand on it there. This would also allow for photos to be added which would make the article more engaging. PEACETalkAbout 17:04, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
Your attempted analysis of my motives is both innacurate and not relevant.
Given your initial response, my prediction is that I would find dialogue with you unenjoayble and unproductive, so I leave the issue for someone else to tackle. I'll check back from time to time and see how well your defense of the page as it stands is holding up! Sethie 10:32, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
The email which I posted above dated August 21, 2006 has been modified. It now reads as if I was invited to post back at the forum, brahmakumaris.info. I have been trying to log on into the site several times since I was banned, ...I would like to share my lyrics too..but unfortunately it is another false statement. BTW, are you going to buy the .mobi TLD ? Better hurry up...
So now everyone knows my name, former work place (sorry I cannot use the University computers to post,I have another job) Did you enjoy the USF site? but that is not malicious, you just made a simple google search to find out more about me...Well, 195.82.106.244 look forward to posting again in the site.. another lie from you will really discredit you....
Best Wishes to you,
Avyakt7 aka Riveros11 64.156.25.3
( can you figure out who is my IP provider? just do a "whois" search)
Talkabout! Good of you to take the time out to communicate Bud. Why up to now you’d been dismissing me right out of hand as a nasty sock puppet. Glad to see the change of heart. Sorry Bud, no idea what your saying here. -. “I would like to point out I did varify on thing and yes it would appear to be true albeit not in the best wording...as one could conjure many things from said words.” - Please clarify for me.
Got to say Bud, finding it very difficult to see you as a self confessed ‘monitor of this article for vandalism’. Certainly your vigilance don’t extent to this discussion page, or you’d surely be more up for complaining to the Wiki Admin?
Seems like it has to take a part-timer like myself to drop in once in a while to catch 195.82.106.244 in the act of pruning and modifying what other contributors have said, to what he would prefer them to have said. Let me tell you Bud, this sort of behaviour may go down just a treat on his own brahmakumaris.info forum but it has no place whatsoever on a Wiki discussion page.
And yet Talkabout Bud, it can get worse! Naturally I restore the discussion to it’s original condition, where upon 195.82.106.244 reverts it to his version and then uses my own Talk page as a forum to publicly disclose personal information on Avyakt7 Riveros11 and then he really lays it on rich by attempting to further threaten me if I ‘don’t play by the Wiki rules’. I mean that last statement alone just kills me Bud. What sort of rules has the guy been reading!
And then ofcourse don’t forget the sock puppetry. - 195.82.106.244 aka BrahmaKumaris.info. Again something people are seemingly prepared to put up with on the BrahmaKumaris.info forum, but the disciplining of those who hide behind multiple identities on a wiki page is something I do know you will strongly agree with me on? Awaiting your comment Bud
sincerely searchin man 23:03, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
Hi.
well, thank goodness someone can actually ask intelligent questions about factual content instead of continuing on the unsubstantiated slur against me.
With regards to the corporeal founder's occupation, here is a picture of the actually premises in Calcutta that Lekhraj Kirpalani did business from;
http://www.brahmakumaris.info/?title=Image:Picture_050.jpg
http://www.brahmakumaris.info/?title=Image:Picture_048.jpg
http://www.brahmakumaris.info/?title=Image:Picture_036.jpg
http://www.brahmakumaris.info/?title=Image:Picture_042.jpg
I am not so sure about all of the hyperbole. It does not really look that big or glamorous a location [ and it is only one unit in the block not even ground floor]. FYI, Sindh is a geographic area not caste. Sindhis are only Hindis that live in the Sindh/Pakistan and of any caste. He and they are not upper class, the Bhaiband were merchants, which makes them 3rd class [although the caste sysem is more complex than the 4 castes the BKs make believe], had a reputation from being misogynistic and debauched, and were into money primarily. I have citations. There is a old Gujerati saying that, "if you are walking along a road and meet a Cobra snake and Sindhi, kill the Sindhi first". If it is a big issue and has to change, we need to get to primary sources and not just BKWSU PR. I bet most BK don't know half of what is up there.
Lekhraj may have been atypically religious but the fact is he was a business man and not a out of a religious caste. It appears that he was also self-made and not out of a rich family. It might be important to say that he was not not poor or ordinary because the Murlis say the chariot of God was. This is a controversial issue that the PBKs will raise at some point. The predictions suggest that Lekhraj was not the first nor the final medium of Shiva and the BKWSU have written out of history Lekhraj’s business partner, Sevak Ram who also played a part in the founding of the Yagya.
Personally, I think it is such a non-issue. What is so bad about being in business? It is the fact. 195.82.106.244 01:49, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
Dear 195.82.106.244,
As I mentioned before I have not posted from any University of South Florida computer.' Want proof? Please do check all IP addresses where I have posted from. For your information, USF is a B class network. Their IP range starts with 131.X.X.X I have not posted from any IP which belongs to that range. .244 You are acting maliciously. Here is my first warning to you Please see Wikipedia's no personal attacks policy. Comment on content, not on the contributor; personal attacks damage the community and deter users. Note that continued personal attacks may lead to blocks for disruption. Please stay cool and keep this in mind while editing. Thank you. according to wikipedia rules. Please check your statements specially if they relate to the integrity of others. You are disclosing my full name and accusing me of something which is not true. -- avyakt7 17:51, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
Greetings to both Avyak7 and 195.82.106.244 ,
Please let us stop the Bk vs ExBK thing here, you two are behaving like former spouses! From my point of view Avyak7 started off by trying to expose folks on an anonymous forum, several times here. Then when 195.82.106.244 pointed out it was not the thing to do, the throttle was thrown into full gear....then the complaints came in. Avyak7, I have not seen your name here in full print. RELAX!
So, perhaps we need to drop this and go on to the questions/discussions at hand. Oh, Avyakt7 I just want to say that if we cool it for a bit, things will get back to some semblance of reason here. If you keep bringing it up, folks might just figure out what I haven't. Best leave it. 195.82.106.244 Please see that at this point, if Avyak7 should try and disclose anything it is best that I reply to said concerns as he is upset. Some times we start a fire and then it gets away from us and so we must put it out no matter where it started!
So, let us all forgive and forget and continue. TalkAbout 17:36, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
PEACE TalkAbout 23:37, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
TalkAbout 15:45, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
Dear 195.82.106.244,
Here is my second warning to you and thus , I will add the required tag "np3" Please do not make personal attacks on other people. Wikipedia has a policy against personal attacks. In some cases, users who engage in personal attacks may be blocked from editing by administrators or banned by the arbitration committee. Comment on content, not on other contributors or people. Please resolve disputes appropriately. Thank you.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki /WP:NPA#Consequences “Posting a link to an external source that fits the commonly-accepted threshold for a personal attack, in a manner that incorporates the substance of that attack into Wikipedia discussion.” I do not appreciate either that you suggest that I could have written an article about Hitler. I will follow the steps that are stipulated in Wikipedia about this matter.
You have also changed the original title posted by TalkAbout. It was “UN intervention for avyakt7 and 195.82.106.244.”
Dear
TalkAbout,
Please see my name above in 195.82.106.244 response to “searchin man.” Please see “searchin man” talk page as well. I know you can edit things out whenever you wish.. Do I need to ask you for permission to do the same?
195.82.106.244 expressed that he didn’t have no affiliation with BKinfo. I am certain that that is not true. I have substantial evidence for this. Do you want me to disclose it? This information is relevant to this wikipedia article, since it demonstrates that 195.82.106.244 is not a “non-biased” editor and thus, 244 is not qualified to write about Brahma Kumaris in an impartial manner. I needed to disclose that information here because is relevant to this article.
On the other hand, 195.82.106.244 discloses my real full name here and in another user talk page, threatens to contact the faculty at USF (my previous employer), searches and publishes about my personal information which is non relevant to this article. See the difference, TalkAbout? Finally.. I am not upset at all. All I want is for this article to be an accurate reflection of Brahma Kumaris, would you let BKs have an input on this article? avyakt7
1.Points: It should be no doubt now that user 195.82.106.244 is clearly and undoubtedly involved with a forum which is antagonistic to Brahma Kumaris, thus this article for which he or she is the main contributor and is clearly biased. Please demonstrate that user .244 the main author of this BK page is not affiliated with BKINFO. Because if HE IS: Then as the NPOV tags show: a)This article is bias. Please demonstrate the opposite. b)This article is using plenty of "weasel words" such as: "B.K.s believe that their god " Shiva Baba ","mediumistic female followers known as " Sandeshputris " or trance messengers helped add to their spiritual knowledge through psychic visions and allegedly direct contact with God.", "The version made more vague and palatable to Westerners is found here." This just an small sample on the first paragraph.The use of these words are non-scholar and bias; inappropriate for an on-line encyclopedia.
c)The article about BK does not comply with VERIFIABILITY according to WIKIPEDIA rules: "Facts, viewpoints, theories, and arguments may only be included in articles if they have already been published by reliable and reputable sources. Articles should cite these sources whenever possible." Please show the citations. DO not use BK literature for this, since it does not fit this requirement: ("We may not use primary sources whose information has not been made available by a reliable publisher. See Wikipedia:No original research and Wikipedia:Verifiability") and (Use sources who have postgraduate degrees or demonstrable published expertise in the field they are discussing. The more reputable ones are affiliated with academic institutions. The most reputable have written textbooks in their field: these authors can be expected to have a broad, authoritative grasp of their subject. In general, higher education textbooks are frequently revised and try to be authoritative.) Please demonstrate this in your article use these kind of citations rather than websites which do not follow this requirement. In your article to put something like: "Use of Violence: The sight of heavy stick wielding BK “brothers” is a common sight at large BK events. Police reports exist of said BKs kidnapping PBKs in cars, removing them to a distant location and “beating them black and blue”. In one incident, PBKs were beaten so “mercilessly” that they had to be admitted in hospital. In others even elderly women were manhandled. As similar events have taken place across India from Karnatak to Haryana. Police complaints were been filled, the BKs in one incident plea-bargaining in response..." and to put a link to a BKINFO site violates this rule, you are not using reliable sources as defined by WIKIPEDIA and it is obviously malicious.
These are just examples. Please respond to them. By taking the NPOV tag off the article, you are not following WIKIPEDIA rules. This is a warning to you. It will be followed up with WIkipedia admins if you don't stop this vandalism.
I am sure others will post their issues with this article. Now is the time.
72.91.151.117 Avyakt7
avyakt7, I will ask you these three questions directly:
Your reply to these three questions above will be the test of your stated will and intentions towards the others you have issues with here for me. PEACE TalkAbout 22:58, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
Dear TalkAbout: Is this the best you can do? We are talking about this article in wikipedia (Brahma Kumaris). My personal website, is that.. my own business. Please concentrate on responding to the questions about user .244 involvement with BKINFO. Thank you. I will be more than glad to respond to your questions not related with this article once I am allowed to take part on the BKINFO forum.
Sincerely, AVYAKT7 72.91.151.117
72.91.151.117 avyakt7 Riveros 11, ET All,
OK Brahmin soul...I will State your case. Frankly, the OZ forum site was useless to me. No thinkers or perhaps not allowed to think. Now, as I concentrate here on what wisdom I shall plead for you, I first want an agreement that you will behave....as far as I can see Brother this is not Deity behavior by any means. I have great respect for BKsimon and others. I guess you have noted that even some heavy hitters from the BK World have joined. See, if you just limit the HOT temper you can have Great Churning sessions over there too. Albeit I may have to pray...meditate or elevate the thought process as this is no simple task you are requesting here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So, what say you...Brahmin Soul? Yes, you will stop the personalisations and sussing out folks? I am sure some of the BK Souls would enjoy your company. PEACE/PLEASE/PEACE TalkAbout 23:17, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
See, throwing the stone and hiding the hand doesn't work. You only raised more questions than you gave answers. Let the truth set you free. Please note that I have placed my final request on your behalf...from here on you will have to be a forth right Brahmin Soul and place said requests on your own. PEACE/PLEASE/PEACE TalkAbout 00:18, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
Dear TalkAbout, I really like your style...No Kidding, you have class! I love the truth. That is Brahmin Behavior. Do you realize that .244 has been misrepresenting his affiliation with BKINFO? Do you realize that you are supporting that behavior? See, a couple of lines is just enough. Best Wishes, 72.91.151.117 Avyakt7
Talkabout, I'm afraid it is you who is not addressing the discussion - see 'Searchin Man Complaint' section. This article is clearly under the control of a vandal and sockpuppeteer. Now at the very least those with a different POV should be allowed to display an NPOV warning. Please discontinue from vandalising the NPOV warning. searchin man 07:37, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
searchin man, Now, lets not be hasty, I said I would reply to your points and I will. I am seeking others intervention here as I honestly think I do not want to get in the middle of the activities that I do not approve of. First, Avyak7 ET All are in research mode. As to your request, it is under advicement. As said I will get to it, in due time. I realise time is an issue for you and will note that. Trying to Rattle me doesn't speed up the process. As, I recall I gave you some home work to address as well...!
So, before I continue please give me your honest word that you are not Avyak7! You will recieve your requested reply as well...in due time. You do still want that? If not please state that as well. As to an NPOV notice...because Avyak7 placed it there due to his personal issues is not warrented. I had higher hopes of communication with you but see it is the Ole Bully Pulpit at work here by the followers of the Brahma Kumaris. :( PEACE TalkAbout 08:18, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
Dear Talkabout,
This is Avyakt7. Please have .244 address all issues regarding the Brahma Kumaris talk page. It is clear now that user .244 has been misrepresenting facts. Please do not try to go around this issue.' This is very important. If you continue taking the NPOV tag off the article you will be setting an example of vandalism. Yourself and .244 are not the only ones who can edit this page. An NPOV warning is not even changing the contents of the biased Brahma Kumaris article, it is just stating that some of us do not agree with it and that we would like to reach a consensus about it. Enough proof has been given.
Your loyalty to .244 is admirable, but please be reasonable, there has been a lie there, do not try to cover it. 72.91.151.117
Dear 195.82.106.244 ,
You still continue to modify my previous posts. You have gone too far and I will continue to follow Wikipedia procedures regarding the accuracy of this article. Please check out this Wikipedia official policy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Assume_good_faith
Please note:” This policy does not require that editors continue to assume good faith in the presence of evidence to the contrary. Actions inconsistent with good faith include vandalism, sockpuppetry, and lying.”
Your actions and ways clearly fit the above.
User 195.82.106.244 is the main editor of this article which refers to Brahma Kumaris. User 195.82.106.244 is against this institution (Brahma Kumaris.)
I have a strong suspicion that 195.82.106.244 also posts as “Ex-L” in another forum, namely brahmakumaris.info. Ex-L, and most of the others on the forum including the administrator who write the news articles, are clearly against Brahma Kumaris as well.
Therefore, user 195.82.106.244 should not be allowed to have “sole proprietorship” of this article, as he or she appears to be trying very hard to maintain, which in fact is hurting the Brahma Kumaris institutional image.
User 195.82.106.244 has denied in this page any involvement with the Brahmakumaris.info (BKINFO) site. However, consider this: (Evidence from circumstancial to strong)
1)The writing style of “Ex-L” and compare it with 195.82.106.244 writing style.
2)There is an email which was sent by BKINFO to Brahma Kumaris centers requesting for copies of the organization “scriptures” (Murlis). The email header is below: Please note the source of it. ( 195.82.106.244
Received: from [195.82.106.244] (helo=[192.168.1.11]) by node-2.minx.net.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.60) envelope-from <info@brahmakumaris.info>) id 1GOZCu-000162-LL for centres@brahmakumaris.info; Sat, 16 Sep 2006 13:23:41 +0100
3) There is an email which was sent by BKINFO to members of their forum. (which I can provide) A part of it states: “There is also an "up and download" section in progress that includes many Murlis, here;
http://www.brahmakumaris.info/indexw.html
including an Anonymous dropbox for anyone that wants to provide news or information. No name or password required to enter.
Thank you all for your help and keep up the good work!”
THIS A VERY STRONG EVIDENCE:
This link: http://www.brahmakumaris.info/indexw.html is a link to an anonymous ftp server which resides in the following IP address: 195.82.106.244
It can be accessed by going this way: ftp://195.82.106.244 or http://195.82.106.244
THEREFORE; THERE IS A CONCRETE AND UNDENIABLE DIRECT LINK BETWEEN BKINFO AND USER 195.82.106.244 . He is part of their "TEAM EFFORT."
User 195.82.106.244 is running a server on that IP address. With a normal scan, that IP address will not show the current open ports since the server has been firewalled. However, with a more sophisticated scan when icmp packets are not used, that IP address has the following ports open : FTP, HTTP and PPTP. I have a hard copy of the scan I run on that IP address as a proof of this. I can email it to anyone who doubts the certainty of this proof.(avyakt7ATyahoo.c..)
I expect that user 195.82.106.244 will disable these features as soon as he or she reads this message. Please note: This is a concrete, strong and real proof of user 195.82.106.244 clear involvement with the BKINFO forum and probably also its administration. Something which this user has denied all along.
For those who believe that "pictures speak a thousand words", please check these ones: http://godhascome.org/img/bkinfo1.JPG http://godhascome.org/img/bkinfo2.JPG http://godhascome.org/img/bkinfo3.JPG http://godhascome.org/img/bkinfo4.JPG http://godhascome.org/img/bkinfo5.JPG
My point is: It should be no doubt now that user 195.82.106.244 is clearly and undoubtedly involved with a forum which is antagonistic to Brahma Kumaris, thus this article for which he or she is the main contributor and is clearly biased.
These are the facts as I see them.
THEREFORE, after reading Wikipedia standards: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:NPOV_tutorial#Neutral_language
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:NPOV_tutorial#Handling_NPOV_disputes
"When all NPOV-related issues detailed on the talk page have been handled, the template should be removed from the article or category page. In most cases, however, the least cumbersome way of handling NPOV concerns would be to improve the article or the category description, so that it is no longer POV."
Thus: Please take a look at this link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view
Unless there is proof that user 195.82.106.244 does not have any affiliation with BKINFO
AND the article is discussed here by consensus to dismiss the tags below, NPOV tags need to be placed in this article. NPOV tags will be placed in the Brahma Kumaris article which I will revert back as many times as necessary if changed until further proof is shown in this talk page. This is necessary in order not to mislead readers by making them believe that this is in fact an accurate description of Brahma Kumaris. The following tags are appropriate for this article:
Also, it is very important to comply with this regulation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Information_suppression
User .244 has not observed wikipedia standards. These are the points which user 195.82.106.244 has been neglecting:
* Biased or selective representation of sources, eg: o Explaining why evidence supports one view, but under-representing (even deleting) opposing views in order to make an opinion appear more accepted/rejected than it really is. o Making one's own opinion look superior by omitting points against it, comparing it instead with low quality arguments for other POV's (strawman tactics), or not presenting the other as best it can be. o Finding fault with some opposing evidence (usually the easiest to attack, and often not a neutral assessment), and using that (again as a strawman) to dismiss or ignore other (often stronger) evidence. o Selectively citing a source or ignoring important caveats and limitations, in order to make a source appear to support a view or conclusion that is more extreme than the plain reading of the source implies. (Ie, trying to make a source say more than it actually says) * Variable or double standards, eg: o Citing lower quality evidence for one side but rejecting credible opposing evidence as inadequate. o Minimizing, trivializing or ignoring other citations that call one's opinion into question or that support alternative views. * Editing as if one given opinion is "right" and therefore other opinions either have no substance, or nothing to defend themselves with, and using this as a reason to under-represent it: o Generalizing an opinion held by "some" or "many" as if it is held by "all" (or "all credible") sources, while treating an opposing view as not being held by anyone credible. o Ignoring an opposing view, question or discussion point on the basis that those upholding it are claimed to be misinformed. o Not allowing one view to "speak for itself", or refactoring its "world-view" into the words of its detractors. o Ignoring or deleting views, research or information from sources which would usually be considered credible and verifiable in Wikipedia terms. (This may be done on spurious grounds such as not being "valid enough") o Concealing or misrepresenting (or non-neutrally representing) relevant information about sources or sources' credentials that is needed to judge their value.
User 195.82.106.244 please demonstrate what it has been asked above.. and I have a back up of this post, just in case you thought about deleting it.
Best Regards,
Thank you for the best advertizement that we have been given in a long time, Luis.
Would any individuals interested in reading BK Raja Yoga teachings in their original form called the Murlis, please log in anonymously and download them from the address given above before the BKWSU tries to shut the server down.
I expect our traffic to increase significantly. 195.82.106.244 00:35, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
Dear 195.82.106.244, It surprises me to know that you will not shutdown "Rumpus"! How about changing the link so your IP does not appear? SO now that your traffic will increase (I would like to see a copy of your "awstats" or perhaps "urchin"?)perhaps you will need to explain the meaning of the Murlis too...otherwise, all those souls downloading things will not have a clue of what is going on...Just a suggestion... oh yeah.. if they get stuck in "the cycle"... please pass them my way...You know how to find me. Now we know that you are capable of misrepresenting facts in order to post in WIKIPEDIA. Shall we trust you? Best Wishes, 72.91.151.117 Avyakt7
Please note that an NPOV warning means that the neutrality of the article is disputed and is not a statement as to whether the article is or isn't neutral in itself. It is very clear from this discussion page that there is a dispute about the neutrality of the article and it is therefore inappropriate to remove the warning box from the article. The box should remain until all sides reach a consensus or a decision is made through arbitration. Any attempt to tamper with the box otherwise is an act of vandalism.
Please be advised accordingly 62.5.178.58 12:39, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
I am in no way connected to BKWSU, either pro or con, and I have no interest in changing that. I am a long-time Wikipedian, and an admin, and I want this page to move toward an acceptable encyclopedia article. The reasons for the NPOV and other tags must be delineated, no matter how blindingly obvious someone might think the reasons are. Those issues must then be addressed, either by proper citations, or by removing unsubstantiated claims from the article. The real-world identity or beliefs of any of the contributors to this article are completely irrelevant. This discussion/talk page is not the appropriate place to discuss those questions. Use this page to discuss the encyclopedia article only. – RHolton ≡– 01:55, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
OK. NPOVs for Discussions. One at a time. No more personal attacks. No more crapflood. No more discussing the discussion. If you use three equal signs before and after a topic, like this "===Topic===", we can create a manageable sub-list of points to discuss. My suggestion is that we work to create the list first, have a little cooling off period, order them according to the article and then discuss them. New issues arising can be discussed in new headlines. Alternatively, we can work our way down the page paragraph by paragraph.
I would like to raise the the issue of membership, financial status and charitable giving, perhaps the later the UN relationship. I hope that BKs will come forward with the pre-requisite figures. 195.82.106.244 03:45, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
Please add your NPOV points below ;
Both figures from all zones please, Americas, India, Australasia, Africa etc. 195.82.106.244 18:28, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
I have in my possession a letter from the BKWSU stating that they have "no membership" and merely operate an "open door" policy. (Pressumably open door unless you are a PBK). Alternatively BK administrative head Jank Kripalani states they will have 900,000 followers this year. Across the internet figure vary widely from 450,000 to 800,000 but may of these would appear undated or out of date. Obviously, big numbers constitute good PR, "900,000 people could not be wrong" so what is the official figure.
A question to ask here is, what constitutes a "member"? How long does it take to become a BK? How and at what point is one recognized as a BK? And does one ex-communicate oneself by leaving as the average lifespan is said to be about 5 years? Do only a whiteclad senior BKs or centre-in-charges count? Or reliable, 7 day a week Amrit vela and Morning Class attendee. How do they calculate their laity and what status do they have?
The organization is not forthcoming in these figures nor how they are culculated and so I think we should remove any claims in size. Likewise, how many centers to they have? I can only see tens listed on the internet and yet they claim thousands. This discrepancy is too large to be scientific. So can BKs accurately qualify the numbers of dedicated centers and separate them from the number of "Gita Pathshalas", or family homes used as makeshift centers? Again, actual figures rather than PR 195.82.106.244 18:28, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
I'd say cult is problematic, as it almost always has negative connotations. As the Cult article says, no group ever calls itself a cult, only the group's opponents. On the other hand, I'm not particularly satisfied with New Religious Movement. Any other suggestions? – RHolton ≡– 04:34, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
One important issue we have to resolve is the role of Sevak Ram, Lekhraj Kirpalani's business partner, in the establishment of the Om Mandali "group", see [20]. The author is the said piece is or was a BK and so there have to be some grounds for inclusion. Would any BK care to offer the official history of his role? 195.82.106.244 18:28, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
A bot has identified this is an article from inclusion in the Wikipedia:WikiProject_India project and as "stub class". I have removed the tab as it was not introduced nor discussed and the topic article is certainly by no means a stub. This raises valid discussion of its own. Personally, I see the BKWSU as an international and not merely Indian organzation.
This could conceivably again lead to forks in the article. 195.82.106.244 18:46, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
Please, everyone be careful when you edit this page. In very recent history, an editor inadventantly obliterated another editor's post (which was later restored by a third editor). Serious misunderstandings begin this way.
Also, when archiving previous content, always archive in context. Don't pull pieces of a section out of the main talk page to the archive. Do the whole thing or nothing.
I'd also beg people to restrain themselves from messing with other people's posts, even if you're just wikifying or fixing a spelling error. If you must do this sort of editing, make sure that you do not in any way alter the content of the post, and do this sort of editing separate from adding your own contents. The problem is that these kind of edits make it almost impossible for someone attempting to follow the flow of conversation in the history.
Finally, please retain the posting order: add your posts to the bottom of the section, and if you're creating a new section, add it to the bottom of the page. Yes, there are rare exceptions, but let's keep them rare.
Thanks!
Dear Souls, Om Shanti! Hope you are doing well these days… I would like to acknowledge the timely input of RHolton; his input allowed some of us to smell the roses, go to the beach, have regular meditations, etc… Things are great when you do not have to revert a long time expected and well deserved NPOV in this article. Thanks! Thus, now is about the article, “Past is Past…” Here I go...:
Let me start with this very important Wikipedia policy: VERIFIABILITY [21]
1. Articles should contain only material that has been published by reputable sources. 2. Editors adding new material to an article should cite a reputable source, or it may be challenged or removed by any editor. 3. The obligation to provide a reputable source lies with the editors wishing to include the material, not on those seeking to remove it.
Please keep in mind point #3.
Now, let me dissect the article paragraph by paragraph. As we move along, besides the "verifiability" policy; I am sure other policies will come up, which I will make sure to provide.
The first paragraph of the NPOV article in question: “Prajapita Brahma Kumaris Ishwariya Vishwa Vidyalaya or the BKWSU, is a new religious movement that began in 1937 based on the experiences of Lekhraj Kripalani in Sindh (present day Pakistan).The BKWSU teaches of a form of meditation involving spirit channeling it calls Raja Yoga, in confusion with classical Patanjali's Raja Yoga, through Raja Yoga Centers worldwide."
Questions:
1) What is the source for the above mentioned statement?
The source may need to be academic, researched by holders of graduate degrees. Would you kindly point out your source? Please check this page out:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources#Finding_good_sources. Please, if applicable provide the ISBN number since readers would like to double check the source.
2)Brahma Kumaris is being labeled as " New Religious Movement" in the article. Sources? please.
3) 195.82.106.244 pointed out in RHolton’s talk page the following: “We are going to have problems Mr Holton because you have admin status to throw around but your opening comments are factually inaccurate. The BKWSU was not founded in 1937, the precursor Om Mandali was World Renewal Trust followed. The "University" is not real university and as such not founded, it might be misleading. Additionally, the founder was not Brahma Baba but Shiva Baba. And the citation are clearly available and non-contentious. So caution please if we are to be accurate. 195.82.106.244 18:15, 12 October 2006 (UTC)”
Accordingly, why is not “ShivBaba” in this paragraph? ("the founder was not Brahma Baba but Shiva Baba.") Is 1937 the real date? Sources, please...sources.
4) What is the source for the "The BKWSU teaches of a form of meditation involving spirit channeling it calls Raja Yoga, in confusion with classical Patanjali's Raja Yoga, through Raja Yoga Centers worldwide."? I am really curious about the source of this excerpt.Please provide the references. As an aside, I just want to comment that I do not foresee any problems with Mr. Holton’s input, on the contrary; his impartial input is truly appreciated.
Note: If there are no verifiable references for these points, the paragraph must be deleted from Wikipedia.
Dear .244,
I am glad to see that my post is complete…
Now, let me address your points:
Please read the post in Spanish which TalkAbout referred to: what I read there is not the word “cult.” I read “sect” Do you see that? (In Spanish both words are different) The note posted had Eloy Rodríguez-Valdés as the author. He is a psychologist. Do you believe that a Psychologist is in fact authoritative to write about religion and spiritual movements? Please follow this wikipedia rule: “published by reputable sources.”
Since you mentioned about Christianity, here is a link to the wikipedia site:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity
Please note the neat references.
As far as “sect, “ cult” or “NRM” what should be posted in the wikipedia article is this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Words_to_avoid#Cult.2C_sect
Then, yes.. I agree with you…According to Wikipedia (see link) the term NRM should be used, and “sect and cult” avoided. See? That is reasonable. I am helping you with this source to support the addition of NRM in the article.
Of course, that is not how Brahmins see ourselves, or some else but since we are in WIKIPEDIA, we need to follow WIKIPEDIA conventions.
Please take a minute to read the following: “Wikipedia articles include material on the basis of verifiability, not truth. That is, we report what other reliable sources have published, whether or not we regard the material as accurate. In order to avoid doing original research, and in order to help improve the quality of Wikipedia articles, it is essential that any primary-source material, as well as any generalization, analysis, synthesis, interpretation, or evaluation of information or data, has been published by a reputable third-party publication (that is, not self-published) that is available to readers either from a website (other than Wikipedia) or through a public library. It is very important to cite sources appropriately, so that readers can find your source and can satisfy themselves that Wikipedia has used the source correctly.” From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:No_original_research
When writing an article, it is very important to know what is a “primary source, ” “secondary source, “ etc. An on-line newspaper it is not a “reputable source.” unless it is in the same category as the “New York Times.” See this article in the same newspaper you used in your link: http://www.deccanherald.com/deccanherald/oct172006/update8203720061017.asp See their use of proper English, grammar, etc. This is far from “reputable.” As far as the article you linked, note that is one sided (Bias). We do not know the comments or arguments of the other side.
Let me reiterate: Reliable publications: “Reliable publications include peer-reviewed journals, books published by a known academic publishing house or university press, and divisions of a general publisher with a good reputation for scholarly publications.” In you example about Christianity, the sources are taken from “known academic publishing house or university press.” When you say: “Sources do not need to be academic.” That is true; however they must be reliable. Your newspaper link nor the site BKINFO fulfill this requirement. The same holds true for any publication made by a Brahma Kumaris publication. You cannot use that as “reliable” source because it does not fit the concept of “reliable publication” according to Wikipedia. Please see the link above. You cannot “just give a date of a sakar murli” you need to quote that from a reliable source. See that? With that in mind, you have not disclosed any “reliable” source for that first paragraph. In short: Please comply with this requirement. Use a scholar or a reputable source to back up your statements. Do not use a Brahma Kumaris publication because it does not comply with the concept of reliability stated by Wikipedia.
You wrote: “Otherwise, what do you want to do ... erase the entire article? But whilst you are here, please address the issues raise above re Sevak Ram, finances, membership and centers. “ I do not pretend to erase the whole article, but if you do not present any reliable sources, according to wikipedia we will need to consider that. As far as the other issues, if they are in the current article, they may need to be addressed at the proper time. Please do not try to modify or add any more information to the current article.
Best Wishes, avyakt7
Dear .244,
I am glad you are finally using wikipedia to support your claims!
Please do not start name calling and going into personal attacks. Remember this line you wrote:"The real-world identity or beliefs of any of the contributors to this article are completely irrelevant." You are the main editor of this article, thus you need to provide reliable support when requested. Otherwise, anyone can post whatever they want about BK. See that? Just concentrate on the article. OK?
This is going to be a long one, my friend. But I needed extra time to obtain
all the info you requested. I hope you will do the same for me when I request
a "reliable source."
If you read in the same policy you quoted (verifiability) under “sources of dubious reliability” you will find the following: http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Wikipedia:Verifiability&diff=81858242&oldid=81856805 In general, sources of dubious reliability are sources with a poor reputation for fact-checking, or with no fact- checking facilities or editorial oversight. Sometimes a statement can only be found in a publication of dubious reliability, such as a tabloid newspaper. If the statement is relatively unimportant, remove it. If it is important enough to keep, attribute it to the source in question. For example: "According to the British tabloid newspaper The Sun..." As a rule of thumb, sources of dubious reliability should only be used in articles about themselves. below However, even those articles should not – on the grounds of needing to give examples of the source's track record – repeat any potentially libellous claims the source has made about third parties, unless those claims have also been published by more credible sources. October 16, 2006.
I am showing this link from October 16 so, readers can note the changes that have happened since then (a few days ago.)
There are 3 problems with your (.244) citing of this policy:
1)The sources that you mentioned qualify under “sources of dubious reliability” since as I mentioned before, they do not belong to the category of “reliable sources” until it is quoted by a reliable publication. Therefore, these “dubious sources” can only qualify as sources for this article IF they are being used in an article about “ourselves” thus, the author(s) of this article are far from qualifying of being considered “ourselves.” As a matter of fact, it is an article written by a group (or individual) against “ourselves.” (The BK) Therefore, your claim does not fit this rule.
2)Quote:“Even those articles should not – on the grounds of needing to give examples of the source's track record – repeat any potentially libellous claims the source has made about third parties, unless those claims have also been published by more credible sources.” Claims that main editors are making in this article clearly fit under the “libellous” label (harmful and often untrue.) You cannot use those articles to do that. UNLESS you have a reliable source.. a “credible source.” (which you don’t.)
3) Note that out of all the bullets you pointed out to support your use of “dubious sources” the following do not apply:
Therefore, please use reliable sources. Otherwise this article lacks validity.
I would like to note the style in writing this paper. It is a standard on all good articles to use citations. You can use the Harvard style for instance. It is not just a matter of saying: “I used so and so” cite his work accordingly and show us where it belongs in the article. Anyone can write footnotes with different things, but they have to match, so a reader can check the accuracy of your writing. As it stands right now, we see plenty of books and websites, but the article does not show at which point they were cited. You need to do this, however; it will be a waste of your time (but a good typing practice, nevertheless)unless you produce “reliable sources.” Let me give you a link that you can use for citing sources: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:CITE
Now, I see that you are adding references and there is a new user who is making “small, almost unnoticeable changes in the article,” “wikifying it.” Old habits are hard to break... Thank you wikipedia for the back up copies.
Also, let’s get the tasks straight here. It is your job to provide sources. Why? Because you are the main editor of this article. That is not my job. If you feel with the authority to write about an institution which you do not belong to and whithout a doubt feel animosity towards it, then the very least you can do is to show reliable sources for your writings.
Nevertheless, to set the example about “doing your work the right way” let me share with you this scholar source: Richard Barz, Ph.D. Professor Barz has visited Mt. Abu in 1967 and 1984. You can see his qualifications and expertise in the link below .244…PLEASE: this is what you need to provide: “reliable sources.” http://asianstudies.anu.edu.au/wiki/index.php/Dr_Richard_Barz
I contacted him and below you will see his reply in relation with the “cult” word that you seem to enjoy so much and use without caution: (I had changed our email addresses, in order to avoid spamming, but I know you can get that info, right?)
Forwarded message ----------
From: Richard Barz <richard.barzAT??.edu.au> Date: Oct 18, 2006 2:04 AM Subject: Re: About Brahma Kumaris To: Luis Alberto Riveros <riveros??ATsomesubtleplace.com> My view is that the Brahma Kumaris are a religion. I don't feel that they are a sect as that would imply that they are an offshoot of some other religion, which is not the case. I wouldn't use the term cult for them as it has a feeling of secretiveness which does not apply. The Brahma Kumaris could also be called a new religious movement since they are a modern form of a Hindu religious tradition that is very ancient.'
Some of the articles that Professor Barz has written about BK:
the Brahma Kumaris/
R.S. McGregor, Cambridge University Press, Cambridge, pp.298-313 (1992)
Article in *Devotional literature in South Asia* ed. R.S. McGregor includes a good bibliography of materials on the Brahma Kumaris up to 1992.
http://prp.contentdirections.com/mr/cupress.jsp/doi=10.2277/0521413117
You can read his scholar article about BK in this book. .244, to be an editor requires some work. It is not a matter to throw in whatever comes to mind.
Last but not least… hope you are fluent in Spanish before you pretend to make me believe that “cult” and “sect” are the same. Keep in mind that there is a strong bias in Spanish speaking countries. The religion there is Catholicism. Anything else is usually labeled as “cult”, “sect”, “nrm” etc.
Therefore, as it stands: The first paragraph of the article has the necessary support to name BK as either NRM (according to Wikipedia) or a “Religion” according to Professor Barz expert opinion in this subject. Anything else in that paragraph does not have any reliability as of today. If you provide the “reliable sources” then we can move on into the second paragraph. Please do not delay, I am eagerly looking forward to it.
Best Wishes .244,
Luis,
no, I am afraid the first paragraph is not done. We still have governmental assemblies stating "Cult". Additionally, you are ignoring the BKWSU's own published literature both in terms of publicity, teaching manuals and Murlis which are both entirely supportative of the statements in the first paragraph, which the BKWSU finds credible and are fine by wikipedia standards. If your argument is to disclaim what the BKWSU states about its own activities, then you will have to produce citations that counteracts the BKWSU's and God Shiva's own claims.
If you want to go down in the history of the 5,000 Year Kalpa as the BK Brahmin that argued that BK Raja Yoga was a "Vaishnavite religion", that is your business. For the sake of our BK Brahmin audience (this wont make much sense to non-BK Brahmins), you as a BK are saying that "Gyan" is Vaishnavite [worship of Vishnu] "Bhakti" because a "Kali Yugi Shudra" said so!?! (Apologies to the good Professor but please appreciate I am using BK terms to illustrate here not my own).
I will state that the protection of "God's Words" channelled through the medium of Lekhraj Kirpalani, called the Sakar Murlis, behind pgp encryption and password protected websites is secretive and the re-editing of the same manipulative of the truth. I am interested in Professor Richard Barz's speciality in the Vallabhacarya sect but he must not be aware of the above. I understand how, as Lekhraj Kirpalani was related to it (a fact that I was challenged on by a BK), it might be possible to misconstrue a connection, but I find it hard to see how any religion that "worships" Shiva can be called Vaishnavite. Surely, it should be Neo-Shiavite? Shiva is not an incarnation of Vishnu, and I do not need citations to back that up! This brings his understanding, or exposure, into doubt. How much access he has been allowed to the original Murlis, is he aware of the child sex abuse cover up, the violent persecution of the PBKs, the failed prediction of Destruction in 1976 and so on?
As regards BK Raja Yoga being Bhakti; unfortunately, Professor Barz is entirely contradict by God Shiva in the Sakar Murli and numerous BKWSU published books referenced on the topic page. So which takes precedence? As a BK, you are essentially contradicting the BKWSU own publilcations and falsifying what you know to be true.
As far as the use of psychologist to determine psychologically coercive techniques in religions - whether new, orthodox or cultic - who else would you use? A theologian cannot be expect to be expert in psychologically damaging practises. A practitioner or recruiter even less so.
BTW, personal emails of this sort are not acceptable by Wiki standards. But, by all means, if you want me to start emailing around for a second opinion, I will do so. Thanks. 195.82.106.244 05:35, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
For those not expert in yoga, a quick look at the Wikipedia Raja Yoga article will help you appreciate what Classical Raja Yoga is. A yoga form with over 2,000 years of tradition, it is clearly entirely different from BK Raja Yoga. That the two are named the same is confusing, perhaps deliberately so on behalf of the BKWSU.
The actual date of inception of BK Raja Yoga is not know but it must be after 1936-1937 when the spirit entity named after the Hindu God Shiva first possessed Lekhraj Kirpalani and started channelling his "Knowledge" through him. It is recorded that in the early days of the Om Mandali/BKWSU Lekhraj Kirpalani was not the medium through which the knowledge was channelled and it is also recorded in the Sakar Murlis and BKWSU publications that the "Knowledge" and practise was not delivered complete. Therefore we cannot say exactly when BK Raja Yoga was first taught but we can safely say it was only in the last 70 years at the very most and most likely much less.
Increasingly, the BKWSU and senior faculty members of the BKWSU, such as Brian Bacon and Mike George of Oxford Leadership Academy. are referring to BK Raja Yoga as being "ancient" or "centuries old", e.g. at the 2004 Parliament of the World's Religions the BKWSU Erik Larson, Dadi Janki, Jayanti Kripalani did talk on "The Wisdom of Listening to God: Ancient Raja Yoga of Brahma Kumaris" [25] or "Oxford Leadership Development Programme Learn the art of reflective inquiry, a deep reflection process based on the centuries old practice of Raja Yoga Meditation." Now, this I submit is both clearly untrue and that it does not require an expert academic opinion to point out the difference. Indeed, if a specialist opinion is required then it ought to come from a recognized yogic authority such as Vivekananda. Personally, I do not see anything contentious in this.
BK Raja Yoga is new, less than 70 years old not centuries. Patanjali's Yoga Sutras or Classic Raja Yoga is an enitrely different practise and more than 2,000 years old. I state that it is a confusion that needs to be clearly stated at the beginning of this article and so the statement as given does not need changed. If BK do wish to remove the statement, are they also going to assert that BK Raja Yoga is the original, Classical or Ancient Raja Yoga on the Raja Yoga page as well?
Thank you. 195.82.106.244 06:13, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
Dear .244, Thank you for your quick reply. Let me be clear this time (perhaps I wasn’t before.) You either provide reliable sources or that first paragraph will be erased, according to Wikipedia rules. Before doing that, I will post a paragraph considering the evidence that we already have to replace the current one. I believe 3 days for you to produce reliable evidence for that first paragraph is plenty of time. If you did not have it and wrote the paragraph anyway, then … you don’t have evidence, don't waste our time here. As simple as that.
.244 we all know how easy it is for you to write and send emails around. Just remember to post a website with the qualifications of your source so I can double check it. You know I will.
Please let us know about your qualifications before you try to argue here about religious studies and research. Show proof of that. Let me copy again what you wrote: "The real-world identity or beliefs of any of the contributors to this article are completely irrelevant." That applies to you too. Do not forget that.
Oh yeah.. I was forgetting about your friend, Green108… What can I say… If you do not like this debate.. just don’t look at it. If you think this article is not a big deal, good for you.. Others and myself included, do not think so. On the same token, If you like this article, then .. this is your chance to submit reliable sources so it can stay here.
As always the very best for both of you, avyakt7 13:55, 21 October 2006
OK. I have a citation from The London Observer dated September 1996. The London Observer is a Conservative broadsheet newspaper of public record, first published on 4 December 1791, and easily comparable to the New York Times that published the recent Wikipedia article. Indeed the British media, whether right or left wing, is general trusted more worldwide for its impartiality and detachment.
The London Observer records such BKWSU beliefs such as "the axis of the [Earth] shall straighten from its angle of 23.5 degrees to the truly vertical", "The continents shall come together once more" and "There will be springtime all year long ... a paradise of endless happiness" following Destruction.
It goes on to state that the "The Brahma Kumaris emerged in India in 1937, when a wealthy Hindu diamond merchant, Dada Lekhraj, began to claim that Shiva, God the Supreme Soul, had entered him to begin the task of creating a new world order" and the book "Adi Dev - The First Man" by Jagdish Chander.
In plain English, that is Spiritual possession, or " the concept that gods, daemons, demons, animas, or other disincarnate entities may temporarily take control of a human body, resulting in noticeable changes in behaviour" to quote the wiki itself. There are no other word for it. Put that together with the BKWSU training manual, the Sakar Murlis and quotes given from Sister Jayanti regarding chanelling and we have the first paragraph. Nothing controversial there; we have a paper of note, scripture, a published author and a senior administrator of the organization backing it all up.
In the article the journalist asks the BKWSU for comment on "whether six million Jews had died at the hands of the Nazis because of their 'bad karma'?" and the newspaper was told that, "Yes, indeed they had." My suggestion is that we include this in the section on Karma.
On a separate issue, the newspaper reports that London based Cult Information Centre, which monitors the activities of new religious movements, describes the BKWSU as a "religious cult". "The Brahma Kumaris believe that the world is about to end in apocalyptic destruction, ushering in a Golden Age in which group members will be divine beings living in palaces 'decorated with multicoloured lights'."
I look forward to the convolutions of Wiki policy Luis is going to try to overcome this. My guess is that he is just going to try and use aggression and accusation to ignore it all, where I am sure that real academics and educational faculty members will not. 195.82.106.244 06:43, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
Dear .244, Thank you for you advice about the "sandbox," I agree that I am becoming more familiar with the policies at Wikipedia than the way you edit it...
Since you are preparing an "information pack to academics" right now, that means that you do not have the "reliable sources" as specified by Wikipedia to support your statements. Thus, you wrote this article without considering this important fact. Let me remind you that those references that you have are not cited at any point in that first paragraph in question.
As far as your article in the London Observer, please show us the site or make it somehow available for us to see it (your BKINFO site perhaps) As far as the first paragraph is concerned there is little that could be used. As a matter of fact, let me point out a reference which you added in this article (under bibliography/references) but have no cited at all: Dr. Kranenborg's work: http://www.cesnur.org/testi/bryn/br_kranenborg.htm Please take a look at that article. Well written, in a non bias way, concise, "weasel words" are out of the question unlike the current article. See the difference? According to that article it says:"The movement was founded in 1936 in Karachi by Lekh Raj who was born in 1876." Thus, guess which "reliable source" is more reliable for an on line encyclopedia? Your newspaper or a scholar article. BTW, I obtained the permission from Dr. Kranenborg to quote his article...also take a look at the label he uses to describe BK: "Religion" or "new religion" thus in agreement with Dr. Richard Barz.
I know "bkwatch" has been very busy lately... hope to see a "reliable source" from your part tomorrow.
Best Wishes,
avyakt7 14:06, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
This is a citation request for the following paragraph,
"Therefore their knowledge has become modified according to necessity in order to sustain their faith. At first it was taught 50 years for destruction and 50 for creation, then 60 / 40, now the Brahma Kumaris tend to try and avoid the issue."
Please provide this otherwise I will delete the paragraph. Bksimonb 15:40, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
You are correct to state this this paragraph should be changed. It should read that "at first it was taught that the Confluence Age was 40 years and then it was changed to 50/50, 50/60 ... etc.
"Corruption, Irreligiousness, unrighteousness, vices, insolvency, and suffering will come to an end in Bharat within 9 years and Golden-aged, deity world-Sovereignty of Shri Lakshmi and Shri Narayan will come to be established after forth-coming huge World Destruction within 9 years" .
which would equate to 1975-6 - or 40 years after the initial possession of Lekhraj Kirpalani and start of the channelled teachings.
This and the other supporting citations, e.g. quotes from published books, magazines and scriptures, have all been previous given on these discussion pages and indeed the teaching posters are listed as a references on the topic page. Please do your homework first before making NPOV revisions.
"The final Destruction of the whole World takes place within 6 years. Those who tell it to be 7 years have their position reduced"
Sadly, this underline how little due care and attention you are giving any given references that oppose your organization's current PR and, perhaps, how unaware or misled you have been of your own organization's history. If this is so, please ask your Senior Sisters why these changes have been written out of your organization's history, why the scriptures [Murlis] are being changed and what the significance of the 1976 date for Destruction was. Please note, the original posters were displayed in the Delhi center for many years with a sticker over the 40 years changing the date but these editions distributed worldwide. If you realy need me to pull out more references I can but I think we have established clear balance of probability, on sound citations, that I am correct.
Please note the organization recently celebrated its 70th Anniversary. 195.82.106.244 23:54, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
This is the way the first paragraph of this article will look tomorrow unless "reliable sources" are presented today (10/24/06). Needless to say, any attempt to revert back without providing the required support will be considered vandalism.
Prajapita Brahma Kumaris Ishwariya Vishwa Vidyalaya or Brahma Kumaris World Spiritual University is considered a new religious movement [1] according to John Wallis, Ph.D [2] or a religion [3] or as stated by Professor R. Kranenborg “Brahma Kumaris is in fact a new religion, originating within Hinduism but going its own way.” The Brahma Kumaris World Spiritual University (BKWSU) teaches a form of meditation denominated Raja Yoga. According to Kranenborg: “The entire way of the Brahma Kumaris can be characterized as raja yoga. One should not think here in the first place of classical yoga, as described by Patanjali. Central to raja yoga is that one becomes connected with the Highest Soul and with the highest in oneself. It is a way to the true self, which is to be expressed in everyday life."
The movement was founded in 1936 in Karachi by Lekh Raj Kripalani who was born in 1876. "When he wanted to withdraw from this life in 1936 so that he could devote himself to the spiritual life, he had a radical religious experience. He had the feeling that he had come into contact with the Supreme Soul or God; at the same time he experienced himself in this encounter as an eternal soul and the connectedness of that soul with the Supreme Soul.” [4]
Best Wishes, avyakt7 22:13, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
On the basis of the Wiki reference you are giving, I am fine with it. The Brahma Kumaris are a cult, exhibit cultic behavior and I am happy to follow the guidelines and write the article around why, as it suggests. These discussion pages are a fine example of the tensions both within and without the organization, made worse by the secretiveness [Murlis, see Kranenborgh above, being kept away from public and academic inspection] and dishonesty over its own history [Murli re-editing, Sevak Ram, 1976 Destruction etc].
195.82.106.244 22:53, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Dear.244, We will go back to the "cycle" of these articles. I wrote before, way up above...that you cannot use those sources and I gave reasons for it. Let me paste it again here. You have failed to provide reliable sources after the 3 days. All you are doing is arguing without support from reliable sources. Thus, the paragraph will be changed. Unless you show an accurate citation referring to that paragraph and using the Bibliography which you supplied, if you attempt to revert the article will be considered vandalism. You know, I will revert it back as it happened with the NPOV.
Here one more time: There are 3 problems with your (.244) citing of this policy:
1)The sources that you mentioned qualify under “sources of dubious reliability” since as I mentioned before, they do not belong to the category of “reliable sources” until it is quoted by a reliable publication. Therefore, these “dubious sources” can only qualify as sources for this article IF they are being used in an article about “ourselves” thus, the author(s) of this article are far from qualifying of being considered “ourselves.” As a matter of fact, it is an article written by a group (or individual) against “ourselves.” (The BK) Therefore, your claim does not fit this rule.
2)Quote:“Even those articles should not – on the grounds of needing to give examples of the source's track record – repeat any potentially libellous claims the source has made about third parties, unless those claims have also been published by more credible sources.” Claims that main editors are making in this article clearly fit under the “libellous” label (harmful and often untrue.) You cannot use those articles to do that. UNLESS you have a reliable source.. a “credible source.” (which you don’t.)
3) Note that out of all the bullets you pointed out to support your use of “dubious sources” the following do not apply:
the written form of it have a high tendency to discredit the BK. The use of “weasel” words to discredit the BK movement is high.
This article has been referring to several other groups and how BKs are the “bad guys” when dealing with them. Your links about obscure newspapers and bias websites lacking reliability are the proof for that.
Therefore, please use reliable sources. Otherwise this article lacks validity. Best, 72.91.4.91 12:30, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
Avyakt7 Luis et All/BK Tech Team are deleting whole sections while claiming to be adding citation: http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Brahma_Kumaris_World_Spiritual_University&diff=next&oldid=83276240
So, once again the FULL TIME TECH TEAM is doing a hacket job on the article without denying any of the information or willing to answer "ONE" question posed to them. PEACE TalkAbout 14:20, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
Dear TalkAbout:
Here it is what it was removed as I stated before:
I am citing Kranenborg. He is a Professor, he has done research in this subject. Show your research counteracting this. This paragraph, (first one) is referring to what is BK? what is Raja Yoga? and when it was founded and by whom?. I could add the "millenarian" label if you feel appropriate. After all Christianity is considered a millenarianistic religion as well, however; I do not see that in their WIKI page.You have provided several books and links which do not match the content of this article. As we discussed before, BK material is out of the question unless it is quoted by a researcher. avyakt7 00:26, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
Talk About show us you research on this topic. At least one reference pointing to your article should be there.
Please do not make me repeat the same "record" over and over...Read my posts and show your research articles and then we can discuss this, otherwise; the page will be reverted. .244 has been warned and now you are being warned. Please show RELIABLE SOURCES. That is all... Thank you. Best 72.91.4.91 14:54, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
Now that the references match the opening paragraph and the "origin" header, let us focus on the section which I named "History" to avoid having two "origin" headers. Under History, user .244. please submit your reliable sources which are easily verifiable under Wikipedia rules to support that paragraph. Look forward to reading them. Thank you. 72.91.4.91 13:19, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
I am particularly interested in this statement: "Dada Lekhraj, known then as "Om Baba", in turn denounced the Congress as "Kansa" or wicked and under pressure of Hindu public opinion, the Sindh government reluctantly banned the Om Mandali, which went to court and had the ban order quashed." Sources?
and this one: "spending their time in intense spiritual study, meditation and alleged self-transformation. During this time, mediumistic female followers known as "Sandeshputris" or trance messengers helped add to their spiritual knowledge through psychic visions and allegedly direct contact with God." Sources? Note the use of weasel words.
and of course, i find this very interesting: "the community moved to Mount Abu, mainly due to the religious resistance to its activities in Pakistan." Sources, please?
BTW, both of your links about the "history" of BK do not have all the extra "flavor" (for lack of a better word)that you have added. Without sources to back this up, it will be deleted as well. Your turn. Best Wishes, 72.91.4.91 19:14, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | → | Archive 10 |
I have a request to shorten the PBK section and start their own page. The current entry is rather long and we could add more Bibliography/References to the article if we had more space available. I am not asking that they be deleted...only shortened and the full entry moved to their page with more room to expand on it there. This would also allow for photos to be added which would make the article more engaging. PEACETalkAbout 17:04, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
Your attempted analysis of my motives is both innacurate and not relevant.
Given your initial response, my prediction is that I would find dialogue with you unenjoayble and unproductive, so I leave the issue for someone else to tackle. I'll check back from time to time and see how well your defense of the page as it stands is holding up! Sethie 10:32, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
The email which I posted above dated August 21, 2006 has been modified. It now reads as if I was invited to post back at the forum, brahmakumaris.info. I have been trying to log on into the site several times since I was banned, ...I would like to share my lyrics too..but unfortunately it is another false statement. BTW, are you going to buy the .mobi TLD ? Better hurry up...
So now everyone knows my name, former work place (sorry I cannot use the University computers to post,I have another job) Did you enjoy the USF site? but that is not malicious, you just made a simple google search to find out more about me...Well, 195.82.106.244 look forward to posting again in the site.. another lie from you will really discredit you....
Best Wishes to you,
Avyakt7 aka Riveros11 64.156.25.3
( can you figure out who is my IP provider? just do a "whois" search)
Talkabout! Good of you to take the time out to communicate Bud. Why up to now you’d been dismissing me right out of hand as a nasty sock puppet. Glad to see the change of heart. Sorry Bud, no idea what your saying here. -. “I would like to point out I did varify on thing and yes it would appear to be true albeit not in the best wording...as one could conjure many things from said words.” - Please clarify for me.
Got to say Bud, finding it very difficult to see you as a self confessed ‘monitor of this article for vandalism’. Certainly your vigilance don’t extent to this discussion page, or you’d surely be more up for complaining to the Wiki Admin?
Seems like it has to take a part-timer like myself to drop in once in a while to catch 195.82.106.244 in the act of pruning and modifying what other contributors have said, to what he would prefer them to have said. Let me tell you Bud, this sort of behaviour may go down just a treat on his own brahmakumaris.info forum but it has no place whatsoever on a Wiki discussion page.
And yet Talkabout Bud, it can get worse! Naturally I restore the discussion to it’s original condition, where upon 195.82.106.244 reverts it to his version and then uses my own Talk page as a forum to publicly disclose personal information on Avyakt7 Riveros11 and then he really lays it on rich by attempting to further threaten me if I ‘don’t play by the Wiki rules’. I mean that last statement alone just kills me Bud. What sort of rules has the guy been reading!
And then ofcourse don’t forget the sock puppetry. - 195.82.106.244 aka BrahmaKumaris.info. Again something people are seemingly prepared to put up with on the BrahmaKumaris.info forum, but the disciplining of those who hide behind multiple identities on a wiki page is something I do know you will strongly agree with me on? Awaiting your comment Bud
sincerely searchin man 23:03, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
Hi.
well, thank goodness someone can actually ask intelligent questions about factual content instead of continuing on the unsubstantiated slur against me.
With regards to the corporeal founder's occupation, here is a picture of the actually premises in Calcutta that Lekhraj Kirpalani did business from;
http://www.brahmakumaris.info/?title=Image:Picture_050.jpg
http://www.brahmakumaris.info/?title=Image:Picture_048.jpg
http://www.brahmakumaris.info/?title=Image:Picture_036.jpg
http://www.brahmakumaris.info/?title=Image:Picture_042.jpg
I am not so sure about all of the hyperbole. It does not really look that big or glamorous a location [ and it is only one unit in the block not even ground floor]. FYI, Sindh is a geographic area not caste. Sindhis are only Hindis that live in the Sindh/Pakistan and of any caste. He and they are not upper class, the Bhaiband were merchants, which makes them 3rd class [although the caste sysem is more complex than the 4 castes the BKs make believe], had a reputation from being misogynistic and debauched, and were into money primarily. I have citations. There is a old Gujerati saying that, "if you are walking along a road and meet a Cobra snake and Sindhi, kill the Sindhi first". If it is a big issue and has to change, we need to get to primary sources and not just BKWSU PR. I bet most BK don't know half of what is up there.
Lekhraj may have been atypically religious but the fact is he was a business man and not a out of a religious caste. It appears that he was also self-made and not out of a rich family. It might be important to say that he was not not poor or ordinary because the Murlis say the chariot of God was. This is a controversial issue that the PBKs will raise at some point. The predictions suggest that Lekhraj was not the first nor the final medium of Shiva and the BKWSU have written out of history Lekhraj’s business partner, Sevak Ram who also played a part in the founding of the Yagya.
Personally, I think it is such a non-issue. What is so bad about being in business? It is the fact. 195.82.106.244 01:49, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
Dear 195.82.106.244,
As I mentioned before I have not posted from any University of South Florida computer.' Want proof? Please do check all IP addresses where I have posted from. For your information, USF is a B class network. Their IP range starts with 131.X.X.X I have not posted from any IP which belongs to that range. .244 You are acting maliciously. Here is my first warning to you Please see Wikipedia's no personal attacks policy. Comment on content, not on the contributor; personal attacks damage the community and deter users. Note that continued personal attacks may lead to blocks for disruption. Please stay cool and keep this in mind while editing. Thank you. according to wikipedia rules. Please check your statements specially if they relate to the integrity of others. You are disclosing my full name and accusing me of something which is not true. -- avyakt7 17:51, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
Greetings to both Avyak7 and 195.82.106.244 ,
Please let us stop the Bk vs ExBK thing here, you two are behaving like former spouses! From my point of view Avyak7 started off by trying to expose folks on an anonymous forum, several times here. Then when 195.82.106.244 pointed out it was not the thing to do, the throttle was thrown into full gear....then the complaints came in. Avyak7, I have not seen your name here in full print. RELAX!
So, perhaps we need to drop this and go on to the questions/discussions at hand. Oh, Avyakt7 I just want to say that if we cool it for a bit, things will get back to some semblance of reason here. If you keep bringing it up, folks might just figure out what I haven't. Best leave it. 195.82.106.244 Please see that at this point, if Avyak7 should try and disclose anything it is best that I reply to said concerns as he is upset. Some times we start a fire and then it gets away from us and so we must put it out no matter where it started!
So, let us all forgive and forget and continue. TalkAbout 17:36, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
PEACE TalkAbout 23:37, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
TalkAbout 15:45, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
Dear 195.82.106.244,
Here is my second warning to you and thus , I will add the required tag "np3" Please do not make personal attacks on other people. Wikipedia has a policy against personal attacks. In some cases, users who engage in personal attacks may be blocked from editing by administrators or banned by the arbitration committee. Comment on content, not on other contributors or people. Please resolve disputes appropriately. Thank you.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki /WP:NPA#Consequences “Posting a link to an external source that fits the commonly-accepted threshold for a personal attack, in a manner that incorporates the substance of that attack into Wikipedia discussion.” I do not appreciate either that you suggest that I could have written an article about Hitler. I will follow the steps that are stipulated in Wikipedia about this matter.
You have also changed the original title posted by TalkAbout. It was “UN intervention for avyakt7 and 195.82.106.244.”
Dear
TalkAbout,
Please see my name above in 195.82.106.244 response to “searchin man.” Please see “searchin man” talk page as well. I know you can edit things out whenever you wish.. Do I need to ask you for permission to do the same?
195.82.106.244 expressed that he didn’t have no affiliation with BKinfo. I am certain that that is not true. I have substantial evidence for this. Do you want me to disclose it? This information is relevant to this wikipedia article, since it demonstrates that 195.82.106.244 is not a “non-biased” editor and thus, 244 is not qualified to write about Brahma Kumaris in an impartial manner. I needed to disclose that information here because is relevant to this article.
On the other hand, 195.82.106.244 discloses my real full name here and in another user talk page, threatens to contact the faculty at USF (my previous employer), searches and publishes about my personal information which is non relevant to this article. See the difference, TalkAbout? Finally.. I am not upset at all. All I want is for this article to be an accurate reflection of Brahma Kumaris, would you let BKs have an input on this article? avyakt7
1.Points: It should be no doubt now that user 195.82.106.244 is clearly and undoubtedly involved with a forum which is antagonistic to Brahma Kumaris, thus this article for which he or she is the main contributor and is clearly biased. Please demonstrate that user .244 the main author of this BK page is not affiliated with BKINFO. Because if HE IS: Then as the NPOV tags show: a)This article is bias. Please demonstrate the opposite. b)This article is using plenty of "weasel words" such as: "B.K.s believe that their god " Shiva Baba ","mediumistic female followers known as " Sandeshputris " or trance messengers helped add to their spiritual knowledge through psychic visions and allegedly direct contact with God.", "The version made more vague and palatable to Westerners is found here." This just an small sample on the first paragraph.The use of these words are non-scholar and bias; inappropriate for an on-line encyclopedia.
c)The article about BK does not comply with VERIFIABILITY according to WIKIPEDIA rules: "Facts, viewpoints, theories, and arguments may only be included in articles if they have already been published by reliable and reputable sources. Articles should cite these sources whenever possible." Please show the citations. DO not use BK literature for this, since it does not fit this requirement: ("We may not use primary sources whose information has not been made available by a reliable publisher. See Wikipedia:No original research and Wikipedia:Verifiability") and (Use sources who have postgraduate degrees or demonstrable published expertise in the field they are discussing. The more reputable ones are affiliated with academic institutions. The most reputable have written textbooks in their field: these authors can be expected to have a broad, authoritative grasp of their subject. In general, higher education textbooks are frequently revised and try to be authoritative.) Please demonstrate this in your article use these kind of citations rather than websites which do not follow this requirement. In your article to put something like: "Use of Violence: The sight of heavy stick wielding BK “brothers” is a common sight at large BK events. Police reports exist of said BKs kidnapping PBKs in cars, removing them to a distant location and “beating them black and blue”. In one incident, PBKs were beaten so “mercilessly” that they had to be admitted in hospital. In others even elderly women were manhandled. As similar events have taken place across India from Karnatak to Haryana. Police complaints were been filled, the BKs in one incident plea-bargaining in response..." and to put a link to a BKINFO site violates this rule, you are not using reliable sources as defined by WIKIPEDIA and it is obviously malicious.
These are just examples. Please respond to them. By taking the NPOV tag off the article, you are not following WIKIPEDIA rules. This is a warning to you. It will be followed up with WIkipedia admins if you don't stop this vandalism.
I am sure others will post their issues with this article. Now is the time.
72.91.151.117 Avyakt7
avyakt7, I will ask you these three questions directly:
Your reply to these three questions above will be the test of your stated will and intentions towards the others you have issues with here for me. PEACE TalkAbout 22:58, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
Dear TalkAbout: Is this the best you can do? We are talking about this article in wikipedia (Brahma Kumaris). My personal website, is that.. my own business. Please concentrate on responding to the questions about user .244 involvement with BKINFO. Thank you. I will be more than glad to respond to your questions not related with this article once I am allowed to take part on the BKINFO forum.
Sincerely, AVYAKT7 72.91.151.117
72.91.151.117 avyakt7 Riveros 11, ET All,
OK Brahmin soul...I will State your case. Frankly, the OZ forum site was useless to me. No thinkers or perhaps not allowed to think. Now, as I concentrate here on what wisdom I shall plead for you, I first want an agreement that you will behave....as far as I can see Brother this is not Deity behavior by any means. I have great respect for BKsimon and others. I guess you have noted that even some heavy hitters from the BK World have joined. See, if you just limit the HOT temper you can have Great Churning sessions over there too. Albeit I may have to pray...meditate or elevate the thought process as this is no simple task you are requesting here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So, what say you...Brahmin Soul? Yes, you will stop the personalisations and sussing out folks? I am sure some of the BK Souls would enjoy your company. PEACE/PLEASE/PEACE TalkAbout 23:17, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
See, throwing the stone and hiding the hand doesn't work. You only raised more questions than you gave answers. Let the truth set you free. Please note that I have placed my final request on your behalf...from here on you will have to be a forth right Brahmin Soul and place said requests on your own. PEACE/PLEASE/PEACE TalkAbout 00:18, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
Dear TalkAbout, I really like your style...No Kidding, you have class! I love the truth. That is Brahmin Behavior. Do you realize that .244 has been misrepresenting his affiliation with BKINFO? Do you realize that you are supporting that behavior? See, a couple of lines is just enough. Best Wishes, 72.91.151.117 Avyakt7
Talkabout, I'm afraid it is you who is not addressing the discussion - see 'Searchin Man Complaint' section. This article is clearly under the control of a vandal and sockpuppeteer. Now at the very least those with a different POV should be allowed to display an NPOV warning. Please discontinue from vandalising the NPOV warning. searchin man 07:37, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
searchin man, Now, lets not be hasty, I said I would reply to your points and I will. I am seeking others intervention here as I honestly think I do not want to get in the middle of the activities that I do not approve of. First, Avyak7 ET All are in research mode. As to your request, it is under advicement. As said I will get to it, in due time. I realise time is an issue for you and will note that. Trying to Rattle me doesn't speed up the process. As, I recall I gave you some home work to address as well...!
So, before I continue please give me your honest word that you are not Avyak7! You will recieve your requested reply as well...in due time. You do still want that? If not please state that as well. As to an NPOV notice...because Avyak7 placed it there due to his personal issues is not warrented. I had higher hopes of communication with you but see it is the Ole Bully Pulpit at work here by the followers of the Brahma Kumaris. :( PEACE TalkAbout 08:18, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
Dear Talkabout,
This is Avyakt7. Please have .244 address all issues regarding the Brahma Kumaris talk page. It is clear now that user .244 has been misrepresenting facts. Please do not try to go around this issue.' This is very important. If you continue taking the NPOV tag off the article you will be setting an example of vandalism. Yourself and .244 are not the only ones who can edit this page. An NPOV warning is not even changing the contents of the biased Brahma Kumaris article, it is just stating that some of us do not agree with it and that we would like to reach a consensus about it. Enough proof has been given.
Your loyalty to .244 is admirable, but please be reasonable, there has been a lie there, do not try to cover it. 72.91.151.117
Dear 195.82.106.244 ,
You still continue to modify my previous posts. You have gone too far and I will continue to follow Wikipedia procedures regarding the accuracy of this article. Please check out this Wikipedia official policy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Assume_good_faith
Please note:” This policy does not require that editors continue to assume good faith in the presence of evidence to the contrary. Actions inconsistent with good faith include vandalism, sockpuppetry, and lying.”
Your actions and ways clearly fit the above.
User 195.82.106.244 is the main editor of this article which refers to Brahma Kumaris. User 195.82.106.244 is against this institution (Brahma Kumaris.)
I have a strong suspicion that 195.82.106.244 also posts as “Ex-L” in another forum, namely brahmakumaris.info. Ex-L, and most of the others on the forum including the administrator who write the news articles, are clearly against Brahma Kumaris as well.
Therefore, user 195.82.106.244 should not be allowed to have “sole proprietorship” of this article, as he or she appears to be trying very hard to maintain, which in fact is hurting the Brahma Kumaris institutional image.
User 195.82.106.244 has denied in this page any involvement with the Brahmakumaris.info (BKINFO) site. However, consider this: (Evidence from circumstancial to strong)
1)The writing style of “Ex-L” and compare it with 195.82.106.244 writing style.
2)There is an email which was sent by BKINFO to Brahma Kumaris centers requesting for copies of the organization “scriptures” (Murlis). The email header is below: Please note the source of it. ( 195.82.106.244
Received: from [195.82.106.244] (helo=[192.168.1.11]) by node-2.minx.net.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.60) envelope-from <info@brahmakumaris.info>) id 1GOZCu-000162-LL for centres@brahmakumaris.info; Sat, 16 Sep 2006 13:23:41 +0100
3) There is an email which was sent by BKINFO to members of their forum. (which I can provide) A part of it states: “There is also an "up and download" section in progress that includes many Murlis, here;
http://www.brahmakumaris.info/indexw.html
including an Anonymous dropbox for anyone that wants to provide news or information. No name or password required to enter.
Thank you all for your help and keep up the good work!”
THIS A VERY STRONG EVIDENCE:
This link: http://www.brahmakumaris.info/indexw.html is a link to an anonymous ftp server which resides in the following IP address: 195.82.106.244
It can be accessed by going this way: ftp://195.82.106.244 or http://195.82.106.244
THEREFORE; THERE IS A CONCRETE AND UNDENIABLE DIRECT LINK BETWEEN BKINFO AND USER 195.82.106.244 . He is part of their "TEAM EFFORT."
User 195.82.106.244 is running a server on that IP address. With a normal scan, that IP address will not show the current open ports since the server has been firewalled. However, with a more sophisticated scan when icmp packets are not used, that IP address has the following ports open : FTP, HTTP and PPTP. I have a hard copy of the scan I run on that IP address as a proof of this. I can email it to anyone who doubts the certainty of this proof.(avyakt7ATyahoo.c..)
I expect that user 195.82.106.244 will disable these features as soon as he or she reads this message. Please note: This is a concrete, strong and real proof of user 195.82.106.244 clear involvement with the BKINFO forum and probably also its administration. Something which this user has denied all along.
For those who believe that "pictures speak a thousand words", please check these ones: http://godhascome.org/img/bkinfo1.JPG http://godhascome.org/img/bkinfo2.JPG http://godhascome.org/img/bkinfo3.JPG http://godhascome.org/img/bkinfo4.JPG http://godhascome.org/img/bkinfo5.JPG
My point is: It should be no doubt now that user 195.82.106.244 is clearly and undoubtedly involved with a forum which is antagonistic to Brahma Kumaris, thus this article for which he or she is the main contributor and is clearly biased.
These are the facts as I see them.
THEREFORE, after reading Wikipedia standards: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:NPOV_tutorial#Neutral_language
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:NPOV_tutorial#Handling_NPOV_disputes
"When all NPOV-related issues detailed on the talk page have been handled, the template should be removed from the article or category page. In most cases, however, the least cumbersome way of handling NPOV concerns would be to improve the article or the category description, so that it is no longer POV."
Thus: Please take a look at this link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view
Unless there is proof that user 195.82.106.244 does not have any affiliation with BKINFO
AND the article is discussed here by consensus to dismiss the tags below, NPOV tags need to be placed in this article. NPOV tags will be placed in the Brahma Kumaris article which I will revert back as many times as necessary if changed until further proof is shown in this talk page. This is necessary in order not to mislead readers by making them believe that this is in fact an accurate description of Brahma Kumaris. The following tags are appropriate for this article:
Also, it is very important to comply with this regulation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Information_suppression
User .244 has not observed wikipedia standards. These are the points which user 195.82.106.244 has been neglecting:
* Biased or selective representation of sources, eg: o Explaining why evidence supports one view, but under-representing (even deleting) opposing views in order to make an opinion appear more accepted/rejected than it really is. o Making one's own opinion look superior by omitting points against it, comparing it instead with low quality arguments for other POV's (strawman tactics), or not presenting the other as best it can be. o Finding fault with some opposing evidence (usually the easiest to attack, and often not a neutral assessment), and using that (again as a strawman) to dismiss or ignore other (often stronger) evidence. o Selectively citing a source or ignoring important caveats and limitations, in order to make a source appear to support a view or conclusion that is more extreme than the plain reading of the source implies. (Ie, trying to make a source say more than it actually says) * Variable or double standards, eg: o Citing lower quality evidence for one side but rejecting credible opposing evidence as inadequate. o Minimizing, trivializing or ignoring other citations that call one's opinion into question or that support alternative views. * Editing as if one given opinion is "right" and therefore other opinions either have no substance, or nothing to defend themselves with, and using this as a reason to under-represent it: o Generalizing an opinion held by "some" or "many" as if it is held by "all" (or "all credible") sources, while treating an opposing view as not being held by anyone credible. o Ignoring an opposing view, question or discussion point on the basis that those upholding it are claimed to be misinformed. o Not allowing one view to "speak for itself", or refactoring its "world-view" into the words of its detractors. o Ignoring or deleting views, research or information from sources which would usually be considered credible and verifiable in Wikipedia terms. (This may be done on spurious grounds such as not being "valid enough") o Concealing or misrepresenting (or non-neutrally representing) relevant information about sources or sources' credentials that is needed to judge their value.
User 195.82.106.244 please demonstrate what it has been asked above.. and I have a back up of this post, just in case you thought about deleting it.
Best Regards,
Thank you for the best advertizement that we have been given in a long time, Luis.
Would any individuals interested in reading BK Raja Yoga teachings in their original form called the Murlis, please log in anonymously and download them from the address given above before the BKWSU tries to shut the server down.
I expect our traffic to increase significantly. 195.82.106.244 00:35, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
Dear 195.82.106.244, It surprises me to know that you will not shutdown "Rumpus"! How about changing the link so your IP does not appear? SO now that your traffic will increase (I would like to see a copy of your "awstats" or perhaps "urchin"?)perhaps you will need to explain the meaning of the Murlis too...otherwise, all those souls downloading things will not have a clue of what is going on...Just a suggestion... oh yeah.. if they get stuck in "the cycle"... please pass them my way...You know how to find me. Now we know that you are capable of misrepresenting facts in order to post in WIKIPEDIA. Shall we trust you? Best Wishes, 72.91.151.117 Avyakt7
Please note that an NPOV warning means that the neutrality of the article is disputed and is not a statement as to whether the article is or isn't neutral in itself. It is very clear from this discussion page that there is a dispute about the neutrality of the article and it is therefore inappropriate to remove the warning box from the article. The box should remain until all sides reach a consensus or a decision is made through arbitration. Any attempt to tamper with the box otherwise is an act of vandalism.
Please be advised accordingly 62.5.178.58 12:39, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
I am in no way connected to BKWSU, either pro or con, and I have no interest in changing that. I am a long-time Wikipedian, and an admin, and I want this page to move toward an acceptable encyclopedia article. The reasons for the NPOV and other tags must be delineated, no matter how blindingly obvious someone might think the reasons are. Those issues must then be addressed, either by proper citations, or by removing unsubstantiated claims from the article. The real-world identity or beliefs of any of the contributors to this article are completely irrelevant. This discussion/talk page is not the appropriate place to discuss those questions. Use this page to discuss the encyclopedia article only. – RHolton ≡– 01:55, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
OK. NPOVs for Discussions. One at a time. No more personal attacks. No more crapflood. No more discussing the discussion. If you use three equal signs before and after a topic, like this "===Topic===", we can create a manageable sub-list of points to discuss. My suggestion is that we work to create the list first, have a little cooling off period, order them according to the article and then discuss them. New issues arising can be discussed in new headlines. Alternatively, we can work our way down the page paragraph by paragraph.
I would like to raise the the issue of membership, financial status and charitable giving, perhaps the later the UN relationship. I hope that BKs will come forward with the pre-requisite figures. 195.82.106.244 03:45, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
Please add your NPOV points below ;
Both figures from all zones please, Americas, India, Australasia, Africa etc. 195.82.106.244 18:28, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
I have in my possession a letter from the BKWSU stating that they have "no membership" and merely operate an "open door" policy. (Pressumably open door unless you are a PBK). Alternatively BK administrative head Jank Kripalani states they will have 900,000 followers this year. Across the internet figure vary widely from 450,000 to 800,000 but may of these would appear undated or out of date. Obviously, big numbers constitute good PR, "900,000 people could not be wrong" so what is the official figure.
A question to ask here is, what constitutes a "member"? How long does it take to become a BK? How and at what point is one recognized as a BK? And does one ex-communicate oneself by leaving as the average lifespan is said to be about 5 years? Do only a whiteclad senior BKs or centre-in-charges count? Or reliable, 7 day a week Amrit vela and Morning Class attendee. How do they calculate their laity and what status do they have?
The organization is not forthcoming in these figures nor how they are culculated and so I think we should remove any claims in size. Likewise, how many centers to they have? I can only see tens listed on the internet and yet they claim thousands. This discrepancy is too large to be scientific. So can BKs accurately qualify the numbers of dedicated centers and separate them from the number of "Gita Pathshalas", or family homes used as makeshift centers? Again, actual figures rather than PR 195.82.106.244 18:28, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
I'd say cult is problematic, as it almost always has negative connotations. As the Cult article says, no group ever calls itself a cult, only the group's opponents. On the other hand, I'm not particularly satisfied with New Religious Movement. Any other suggestions? – RHolton ≡– 04:34, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
One important issue we have to resolve is the role of Sevak Ram, Lekhraj Kirpalani's business partner, in the establishment of the Om Mandali "group", see [20]. The author is the said piece is or was a BK and so there have to be some grounds for inclusion. Would any BK care to offer the official history of his role? 195.82.106.244 18:28, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
A bot has identified this is an article from inclusion in the Wikipedia:WikiProject_India project and as "stub class". I have removed the tab as it was not introduced nor discussed and the topic article is certainly by no means a stub. This raises valid discussion of its own. Personally, I see the BKWSU as an international and not merely Indian organzation.
This could conceivably again lead to forks in the article. 195.82.106.244 18:46, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
Please, everyone be careful when you edit this page. In very recent history, an editor inadventantly obliterated another editor's post (which was later restored by a third editor). Serious misunderstandings begin this way.
Also, when archiving previous content, always archive in context. Don't pull pieces of a section out of the main talk page to the archive. Do the whole thing or nothing.
I'd also beg people to restrain themselves from messing with other people's posts, even if you're just wikifying or fixing a spelling error. If you must do this sort of editing, make sure that you do not in any way alter the content of the post, and do this sort of editing separate from adding your own contents. The problem is that these kind of edits make it almost impossible for someone attempting to follow the flow of conversation in the history.
Finally, please retain the posting order: add your posts to the bottom of the section, and if you're creating a new section, add it to the bottom of the page. Yes, there are rare exceptions, but let's keep them rare.
Thanks!
Dear Souls, Om Shanti! Hope you are doing well these days… I would like to acknowledge the timely input of RHolton; his input allowed some of us to smell the roses, go to the beach, have regular meditations, etc… Things are great when you do not have to revert a long time expected and well deserved NPOV in this article. Thanks! Thus, now is about the article, “Past is Past…” Here I go...:
Let me start with this very important Wikipedia policy: VERIFIABILITY [21]
1. Articles should contain only material that has been published by reputable sources. 2. Editors adding new material to an article should cite a reputable source, or it may be challenged or removed by any editor. 3. The obligation to provide a reputable source lies with the editors wishing to include the material, not on those seeking to remove it.
Please keep in mind point #3.
Now, let me dissect the article paragraph by paragraph. As we move along, besides the "verifiability" policy; I am sure other policies will come up, which I will make sure to provide.
The first paragraph of the NPOV article in question: “Prajapita Brahma Kumaris Ishwariya Vishwa Vidyalaya or the BKWSU, is a new religious movement that began in 1937 based on the experiences of Lekhraj Kripalani in Sindh (present day Pakistan).The BKWSU teaches of a form of meditation involving spirit channeling it calls Raja Yoga, in confusion with classical Patanjali's Raja Yoga, through Raja Yoga Centers worldwide."
Questions:
1) What is the source for the above mentioned statement?
The source may need to be academic, researched by holders of graduate degrees. Would you kindly point out your source? Please check this page out:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources#Finding_good_sources. Please, if applicable provide the ISBN number since readers would like to double check the source.
2)Brahma Kumaris is being labeled as " New Religious Movement" in the article. Sources? please.
3) 195.82.106.244 pointed out in RHolton’s talk page the following: “We are going to have problems Mr Holton because you have admin status to throw around but your opening comments are factually inaccurate. The BKWSU was not founded in 1937, the precursor Om Mandali was World Renewal Trust followed. The "University" is not real university and as such not founded, it might be misleading. Additionally, the founder was not Brahma Baba but Shiva Baba. And the citation are clearly available and non-contentious. So caution please if we are to be accurate. 195.82.106.244 18:15, 12 October 2006 (UTC)”
Accordingly, why is not “ShivBaba” in this paragraph? ("the founder was not Brahma Baba but Shiva Baba.") Is 1937 the real date? Sources, please...sources.
4) What is the source for the "The BKWSU teaches of a form of meditation involving spirit channeling it calls Raja Yoga, in confusion with classical Patanjali's Raja Yoga, through Raja Yoga Centers worldwide."? I am really curious about the source of this excerpt.Please provide the references. As an aside, I just want to comment that I do not foresee any problems with Mr. Holton’s input, on the contrary; his impartial input is truly appreciated.
Note: If there are no verifiable references for these points, the paragraph must be deleted from Wikipedia.
Dear .244,
I am glad to see that my post is complete…
Now, let me address your points:
Please read the post in Spanish which TalkAbout referred to: what I read there is not the word “cult.” I read “sect” Do you see that? (In Spanish both words are different) The note posted had Eloy Rodríguez-Valdés as the author. He is a psychologist. Do you believe that a Psychologist is in fact authoritative to write about religion and spiritual movements? Please follow this wikipedia rule: “published by reputable sources.”
Since you mentioned about Christianity, here is a link to the wikipedia site:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity
Please note the neat references.
As far as “sect, “ cult” or “NRM” what should be posted in the wikipedia article is this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Words_to_avoid#Cult.2C_sect
Then, yes.. I agree with you…According to Wikipedia (see link) the term NRM should be used, and “sect and cult” avoided. See? That is reasonable. I am helping you with this source to support the addition of NRM in the article.
Of course, that is not how Brahmins see ourselves, or some else but since we are in WIKIPEDIA, we need to follow WIKIPEDIA conventions.
Please take a minute to read the following: “Wikipedia articles include material on the basis of verifiability, not truth. That is, we report what other reliable sources have published, whether or not we regard the material as accurate. In order to avoid doing original research, and in order to help improve the quality of Wikipedia articles, it is essential that any primary-source material, as well as any generalization, analysis, synthesis, interpretation, or evaluation of information or data, has been published by a reputable third-party publication (that is, not self-published) that is available to readers either from a website (other than Wikipedia) or through a public library. It is very important to cite sources appropriately, so that readers can find your source and can satisfy themselves that Wikipedia has used the source correctly.” From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:No_original_research
When writing an article, it is very important to know what is a “primary source, ” “secondary source, “ etc. An on-line newspaper it is not a “reputable source.” unless it is in the same category as the “New York Times.” See this article in the same newspaper you used in your link: http://www.deccanherald.com/deccanherald/oct172006/update8203720061017.asp See their use of proper English, grammar, etc. This is far from “reputable.” As far as the article you linked, note that is one sided (Bias). We do not know the comments or arguments of the other side.
Let me reiterate: Reliable publications: “Reliable publications include peer-reviewed journals, books published by a known academic publishing house or university press, and divisions of a general publisher with a good reputation for scholarly publications.” In you example about Christianity, the sources are taken from “known academic publishing house or university press.” When you say: “Sources do not need to be academic.” That is true; however they must be reliable. Your newspaper link nor the site BKINFO fulfill this requirement. The same holds true for any publication made by a Brahma Kumaris publication. You cannot use that as “reliable” source because it does not fit the concept of “reliable publication” according to Wikipedia. Please see the link above. You cannot “just give a date of a sakar murli” you need to quote that from a reliable source. See that? With that in mind, you have not disclosed any “reliable” source for that first paragraph. In short: Please comply with this requirement. Use a scholar or a reputable source to back up your statements. Do not use a Brahma Kumaris publication because it does not comply with the concept of reliability stated by Wikipedia.
You wrote: “Otherwise, what do you want to do ... erase the entire article? But whilst you are here, please address the issues raise above re Sevak Ram, finances, membership and centers. “ I do not pretend to erase the whole article, but if you do not present any reliable sources, according to wikipedia we will need to consider that. As far as the other issues, if they are in the current article, they may need to be addressed at the proper time. Please do not try to modify or add any more information to the current article.
Best Wishes, avyakt7
Dear .244,
I am glad you are finally using wikipedia to support your claims!
Please do not start name calling and going into personal attacks. Remember this line you wrote:"The real-world identity or beliefs of any of the contributors to this article are completely irrelevant." You are the main editor of this article, thus you need to provide reliable support when requested. Otherwise, anyone can post whatever they want about BK. See that? Just concentrate on the article. OK?
This is going to be a long one, my friend. But I needed extra time to obtain
all the info you requested. I hope you will do the same for me when I request
a "reliable source."
If you read in the same policy you quoted (verifiability) under “sources of dubious reliability” you will find the following: http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Wikipedia:Verifiability&diff=81858242&oldid=81856805 In general, sources of dubious reliability are sources with a poor reputation for fact-checking, or with no fact- checking facilities or editorial oversight. Sometimes a statement can only be found in a publication of dubious reliability, such as a tabloid newspaper. If the statement is relatively unimportant, remove it. If it is important enough to keep, attribute it to the source in question. For example: "According to the British tabloid newspaper The Sun..." As a rule of thumb, sources of dubious reliability should only be used in articles about themselves. below However, even those articles should not – on the grounds of needing to give examples of the source's track record – repeat any potentially libellous claims the source has made about third parties, unless those claims have also been published by more credible sources. October 16, 2006.
I am showing this link from October 16 so, readers can note the changes that have happened since then (a few days ago.)
There are 3 problems with your (.244) citing of this policy:
1)The sources that you mentioned qualify under “sources of dubious reliability” since as I mentioned before, they do not belong to the category of “reliable sources” until it is quoted by a reliable publication. Therefore, these “dubious sources” can only qualify as sources for this article IF they are being used in an article about “ourselves” thus, the author(s) of this article are far from qualifying of being considered “ourselves.” As a matter of fact, it is an article written by a group (or individual) against “ourselves.” (The BK) Therefore, your claim does not fit this rule.
2)Quote:“Even those articles should not – on the grounds of needing to give examples of the source's track record – repeat any potentially libellous claims the source has made about third parties, unless those claims have also been published by more credible sources.” Claims that main editors are making in this article clearly fit under the “libellous” label (harmful and often untrue.) You cannot use those articles to do that. UNLESS you have a reliable source.. a “credible source.” (which you don’t.)
3) Note that out of all the bullets you pointed out to support your use of “dubious sources” the following do not apply:
Therefore, please use reliable sources. Otherwise this article lacks validity.
I would like to note the style in writing this paper. It is a standard on all good articles to use citations. You can use the Harvard style for instance. It is not just a matter of saying: “I used so and so” cite his work accordingly and show us where it belongs in the article. Anyone can write footnotes with different things, but they have to match, so a reader can check the accuracy of your writing. As it stands right now, we see plenty of books and websites, but the article does not show at which point they were cited. You need to do this, however; it will be a waste of your time (but a good typing practice, nevertheless)unless you produce “reliable sources.” Let me give you a link that you can use for citing sources: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:CITE
Now, I see that you are adding references and there is a new user who is making “small, almost unnoticeable changes in the article,” “wikifying it.” Old habits are hard to break... Thank you wikipedia for the back up copies.
Also, let’s get the tasks straight here. It is your job to provide sources. Why? Because you are the main editor of this article. That is not my job. If you feel with the authority to write about an institution which you do not belong to and whithout a doubt feel animosity towards it, then the very least you can do is to show reliable sources for your writings.
Nevertheless, to set the example about “doing your work the right way” let me share with you this scholar source: Richard Barz, Ph.D. Professor Barz has visited Mt. Abu in 1967 and 1984. You can see his qualifications and expertise in the link below .244…PLEASE: this is what you need to provide: “reliable sources.” http://asianstudies.anu.edu.au/wiki/index.php/Dr_Richard_Barz
I contacted him and below you will see his reply in relation with the “cult” word that you seem to enjoy so much and use without caution: (I had changed our email addresses, in order to avoid spamming, but I know you can get that info, right?)
Forwarded message ----------
From: Richard Barz <richard.barzAT??.edu.au> Date: Oct 18, 2006 2:04 AM Subject: Re: About Brahma Kumaris To: Luis Alberto Riveros <riveros??ATsomesubtleplace.com> My view is that the Brahma Kumaris are a religion. I don't feel that they are a sect as that would imply that they are an offshoot of some other religion, which is not the case. I wouldn't use the term cult for them as it has a feeling of secretiveness which does not apply. The Brahma Kumaris could also be called a new religious movement since they are a modern form of a Hindu religious tradition that is very ancient.'
Some of the articles that Professor Barz has written about BK:
the Brahma Kumaris/
R.S. McGregor, Cambridge University Press, Cambridge, pp.298-313 (1992)
Article in *Devotional literature in South Asia* ed. R.S. McGregor includes a good bibliography of materials on the Brahma Kumaris up to 1992.
http://prp.contentdirections.com/mr/cupress.jsp/doi=10.2277/0521413117
You can read his scholar article about BK in this book. .244, to be an editor requires some work. It is not a matter to throw in whatever comes to mind.
Last but not least… hope you are fluent in Spanish before you pretend to make me believe that “cult” and “sect” are the same. Keep in mind that there is a strong bias in Spanish speaking countries. The religion there is Catholicism. Anything else is usually labeled as “cult”, “sect”, “nrm” etc.
Therefore, as it stands: The first paragraph of the article has the necessary support to name BK as either NRM (according to Wikipedia) or a “Religion” according to Professor Barz expert opinion in this subject. Anything else in that paragraph does not have any reliability as of today. If you provide the “reliable sources” then we can move on into the second paragraph. Please do not delay, I am eagerly looking forward to it.
Best Wishes .244,
Luis,
no, I am afraid the first paragraph is not done. We still have governmental assemblies stating "Cult". Additionally, you are ignoring the BKWSU's own published literature both in terms of publicity, teaching manuals and Murlis which are both entirely supportative of the statements in the first paragraph, which the BKWSU finds credible and are fine by wikipedia standards. If your argument is to disclaim what the BKWSU states about its own activities, then you will have to produce citations that counteracts the BKWSU's and God Shiva's own claims.
If you want to go down in the history of the 5,000 Year Kalpa as the BK Brahmin that argued that BK Raja Yoga was a "Vaishnavite religion", that is your business. For the sake of our BK Brahmin audience (this wont make much sense to non-BK Brahmins), you as a BK are saying that "Gyan" is Vaishnavite [worship of Vishnu] "Bhakti" because a "Kali Yugi Shudra" said so!?! (Apologies to the good Professor but please appreciate I am using BK terms to illustrate here not my own).
I will state that the protection of "God's Words" channelled through the medium of Lekhraj Kirpalani, called the Sakar Murlis, behind pgp encryption and password protected websites is secretive and the re-editing of the same manipulative of the truth. I am interested in Professor Richard Barz's speciality in the Vallabhacarya sect but he must not be aware of the above. I understand how, as Lekhraj Kirpalani was related to it (a fact that I was challenged on by a BK), it might be possible to misconstrue a connection, but I find it hard to see how any religion that "worships" Shiva can be called Vaishnavite. Surely, it should be Neo-Shiavite? Shiva is not an incarnation of Vishnu, and I do not need citations to back that up! This brings his understanding, or exposure, into doubt. How much access he has been allowed to the original Murlis, is he aware of the child sex abuse cover up, the violent persecution of the PBKs, the failed prediction of Destruction in 1976 and so on?
As regards BK Raja Yoga being Bhakti; unfortunately, Professor Barz is entirely contradict by God Shiva in the Sakar Murli and numerous BKWSU published books referenced on the topic page. So which takes precedence? As a BK, you are essentially contradicting the BKWSU own publilcations and falsifying what you know to be true.
As far as the use of psychologist to determine psychologically coercive techniques in religions - whether new, orthodox or cultic - who else would you use? A theologian cannot be expect to be expert in psychologically damaging practises. A practitioner or recruiter even less so.
BTW, personal emails of this sort are not acceptable by Wiki standards. But, by all means, if you want me to start emailing around for a second opinion, I will do so. Thanks. 195.82.106.244 05:35, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
For those not expert in yoga, a quick look at the Wikipedia Raja Yoga article will help you appreciate what Classical Raja Yoga is. A yoga form with over 2,000 years of tradition, it is clearly entirely different from BK Raja Yoga. That the two are named the same is confusing, perhaps deliberately so on behalf of the BKWSU.
The actual date of inception of BK Raja Yoga is not know but it must be after 1936-1937 when the spirit entity named after the Hindu God Shiva first possessed Lekhraj Kirpalani and started channelling his "Knowledge" through him. It is recorded that in the early days of the Om Mandali/BKWSU Lekhraj Kirpalani was not the medium through which the knowledge was channelled and it is also recorded in the Sakar Murlis and BKWSU publications that the "Knowledge" and practise was not delivered complete. Therefore we cannot say exactly when BK Raja Yoga was first taught but we can safely say it was only in the last 70 years at the very most and most likely much less.
Increasingly, the BKWSU and senior faculty members of the BKWSU, such as Brian Bacon and Mike George of Oxford Leadership Academy. are referring to BK Raja Yoga as being "ancient" or "centuries old", e.g. at the 2004 Parliament of the World's Religions the BKWSU Erik Larson, Dadi Janki, Jayanti Kripalani did talk on "The Wisdom of Listening to God: Ancient Raja Yoga of Brahma Kumaris" [25] or "Oxford Leadership Development Programme Learn the art of reflective inquiry, a deep reflection process based on the centuries old practice of Raja Yoga Meditation." Now, this I submit is both clearly untrue and that it does not require an expert academic opinion to point out the difference. Indeed, if a specialist opinion is required then it ought to come from a recognized yogic authority such as Vivekananda. Personally, I do not see anything contentious in this.
BK Raja Yoga is new, less than 70 years old not centuries. Patanjali's Yoga Sutras or Classic Raja Yoga is an enitrely different practise and more than 2,000 years old. I state that it is a confusion that needs to be clearly stated at the beginning of this article and so the statement as given does not need changed. If BK do wish to remove the statement, are they also going to assert that BK Raja Yoga is the original, Classical or Ancient Raja Yoga on the Raja Yoga page as well?
Thank you. 195.82.106.244 06:13, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
Dear .244, Thank you for your quick reply. Let me be clear this time (perhaps I wasn’t before.) You either provide reliable sources or that first paragraph will be erased, according to Wikipedia rules. Before doing that, I will post a paragraph considering the evidence that we already have to replace the current one. I believe 3 days for you to produce reliable evidence for that first paragraph is plenty of time. If you did not have it and wrote the paragraph anyway, then … you don’t have evidence, don't waste our time here. As simple as that.
.244 we all know how easy it is for you to write and send emails around. Just remember to post a website with the qualifications of your source so I can double check it. You know I will.
Please let us know about your qualifications before you try to argue here about religious studies and research. Show proof of that. Let me copy again what you wrote: "The real-world identity or beliefs of any of the contributors to this article are completely irrelevant." That applies to you too. Do not forget that.
Oh yeah.. I was forgetting about your friend, Green108… What can I say… If you do not like this debate.. just don’t look at it. If you think this article is not a big deal, good for you.. Others and myself included, do not think so. On the same token, If you like this article, then .. this is your chance to submit reliable sources so it can stay here.
As always the very best for both of you, avyakt7 13:55, 21 October 2006
OK. I have a citation from The London Observer dated September 1996. The London Observer is a Conservative broadsheet newspaper of public record, first published on 4 December 1791, and easily comparable to the New York Times that published the recent Wikipedia article. Indeed the British media, whether right or left wing, is general trusted more worldwide for its impartiality and detachment.
The London Observer records such BKWSU beliefs such as "the axis of the [Earth] shall straighten from its angle of 23.5 degrees to the truly vertical", "The continents shall come together once more" and "There will be springtime all year long ... a paradise of endless happiness" following Destruction.
It goes on to state that the "The Brahma Kumaris emerged in India in 1937, when a wealthy Hindu diamond merchant, Dada Lekhraj, began to claim that Shiva, God the Supreme Soul, had entered him to begin the task of creating a new world order" and the book "Adi Dev - The First Man" by Jagdish Chander.
In plain English, that is Spiritual possession, or " the concept that gods, daemons, demons, animas, or other disincarnate entities may temporarily take control of a human body, resulting in noticeable changes in behaviour" to quote the wiki itself. There are no other word for it. Put that together with the BKWSU training manual, the Sakar Murlis and quotes given from Sister Jayanti regarding chanelling and we have the first paragraph. Nothing controversial there; we have a paper of note, scripture, a published author and a senior administrator of the organization backing it all up.
In the article the journalist asks the BKWSU for comment on "whether six million Jews had died at the hands of the Nazis because of their 'bad karma'?" and the newspaper was told that, "Yes, indeed they had." My suggestion is that we include this in the section on Karma.
On a separate issue, the newspaper reports that London based Cult Information Centre, which monitors the activities of new religious movements, describes the BKWSU as a "religious cult". "The Brahma Kumaris believe that the world is about to end in apocalyptic destruction, ushering in a Golden Age in which group members will be divine beings living in palaces 'decorated with multicoloured lights'."
I look forward to the convolutions of Wiki policy Luis is going to try to overcome this. My guess is that he is just going to try and use aggression and accusation to ignore it all, where I am sure that real academics and educational faculty members will not. 195.82.106.244 06:43, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
Dear .244, Thank you for you advice about the "sandbox," I agree that I am becoming more familiar with the policies at Wikipedia than the way you edit it...
Since you are preparing an "information pack to academics" right now, that means that you do not have the "reliable sources" as specified by Wikipedia to support your statements. Thus, you wrote this article without considering this important fact. Let me remind you that those references that you have are not cited at any point in that first paragraph in question.
As far as your article in the London Observer, please show us the site or make it somehow available for us to see it (your BKINFO site perhaps) As far as the first paragraph is concerned there is little that could be used. As a matter of fact, let me point out a reference which you added in this article (under bibliography/references) but have no cited at all: Dr. Kranenborg's work: http://www.cesnur.org/testi/bryn/br_kranenborg.htm Please take a look at that article. Well written, in a non bias way, concise, "weasel words" are out of the question unlike the current article. See the difference? According to that article it says:"The movement was founded in 1936 in Karachi by Lekh Raj who was born in 1876." Thus, guess which "reliable source" is more reliable for an on line encyclopedia? Your newspaper or a scholar article. BTW, I obtained the permission from Dr. Kranenborg to quote his article...also take a look at the label he uses to describe BK: "Religion" or "new religion" thus in agreement with Dr. Richard Barz.
I know "bkwatch" has been very busy lately... hope to see a "reliable source" from your part tomorrow.
Best Wishes,
avyakt7 14:06, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
This is a citation request for the following paragraph,
"Therefore their knowledge has become modified according to necessity in order to sustain their faith. At first it was taught 50 years for destruction and 50 for creation, then 60 / 40, now the Brahma Kumaris tend to try and avoid the issue."
Please provide this otherwise I will delete the paragraph. Bksimonb 15:40, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
You are correct to state this this paragraph should be changed. It should read that "at first it was taught that the Confluence Age was 40 years and then it was changed to 50/50, 50/60 ... etc.
"Corruption, Irreligiousness, unrighteousness, vices, insolvency, and suffering will come to an end in Bharat within 9 years and Golden-aged, deity world-Sovereignty of Shri Lakshmi and Shri Narayan will come to be established after forth-coming huge World Destruction within 9 years" .
which would equate to 1975-6 - or 40 years after the initial possession of Lekhraj Kirpalani and start of the channelled teachings.
This and the other supporting citations, e.g. quotes from published books, magazines and scriptures, have all been previous given on these discussion pages and indeed the teaching posters are listed as a references on the topic page. Please do your homework first before making NPOV revisions.
"The final Destruction of the whole World takes place within 6 years. Those who tell it to be 7 years have their position reduced"
Sadly, this underline how little due care and attention you are giving any given references that oppose your organization's current PR and, perhaps, how unaware or misled you have been of your own organization's history. If this is so, please ask your Senior Sisters why these changes have been written out of your organization's history, why the scriptures [Murlis] are being changed and what the significance of the 1976 date for Destruction was. Please note, the original posters were displayed in the Delhi center for many years with a sticker over the 40 years changing the date but these editions distributed worldwide. If you realy need me to pull out more references I can but I think we have established clear balance of probability, on sound citations, that I am correct.
Please note the organization recently celebrated its 70th Anniversary. 195.82.106.244 23:54, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
This is the way the first paragraph of this article will look tomorrow unless "reliable sources" are presented today (10/24/06). Needless to say, any attempt to revert back without providing the required support will be considered vandalism.
Prajapita Brahma Kumaris Ishwariya Vishwa Vidyalaya or Brahma Kumaris World Spiritual University is considered a new religious movement [1] according to John Wallis, Ph.D [2] or a religion [3] or as stated by Professor R. Kranenborg “Brahma Kumaris is in fact a new religion, originating within Hinduism but going its own way.” The Brahma Kumaris World Spiritual University (BKWSU) teaches a form of meditation denominated Raja Yoga. According to Kranenborg: “The entire way of the Brahma Kumaris can be characterized as raja yoga. One should not think here in the first place of classical yoga, as described by Patanjali. Central to raja yoga is that one becomes connected with the Highest Soul and with the highest in oneself. It is a way to the true self, which is to be expressed in everyday life."
The movement was founded in 1936 in Karachi by Lekh Raj Kripalani who was born in 1876. "When he wanted to withdraw from this life in 1936 so that he could devote himself to the spiritual life, he had a radical religious experience. He had the feeling that he had come into contact with the Supreme Soul or God; at the same time he experienced himself in this encounter as an eternal soul and the connectedness of that soul with the Supreme Soul.” [4]
Best Wishes, avyakt7 22:13, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
On the basis of the Wiki reference you are giving, I am fine with it. The Brahma Kumaris are a cult, exhibit cultic behavior and I am happy to follow the guidelines and write the article around why, as it suggests. These discussion pages are a fine example of the tensions both within and without the organization, made worse by the secretiveness [Murlis, see Kranenborgh above, being kept away from public and academic inspection] and dishonesty over its own history [Murli re-editing, Sevak Ram, 1976 Destruction etc].
195.82.106.244 22:53, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Dear.244, We will go back to the "cycle" of these articles. I wrote before, way up above...that you cannot use those sources and I gave reasons for it. Let me paste it again here. You have failed to provide reliable sources after the 3 days. All you are doing is arguing without support from reliable sources. Thus, the paragraph will be changed. Unless you show an accurate citation referring to that paragraph and using the Bibliography which you supplied, if you attempt to revert the article will be considered vandalism. You know, I will revert it back as it happened with the NPOV.
Here one more time: There are 3 problems with your (.244) citing of this policy:
1)The sources that you mentioned qualify under “sources of dubious reliability” since as I mentioned before, they do not belong to the category of “reliable sources” until it is quoted by a reliable publication. Therefore, these “dubious sources” can only qualify as sources for this article IF they are being used in an article about “ourselves” thus, the author(s) of this article are far from qualifying of being considered “ourselves.” As a matter of fact, it is an article written by a group (or individual) against “ourselves.” (The BK) Therefore, your claim does not fit this rule.
2)Quote:“Even those articles should not – on the grounds of needing to give examples of the source's track record – repeat any potentially libellous claims the source has made about third parties, unless those claims have also been published by more credible sources.” Claims that main editors are making in this article clearly fit under the “libellous” label (harmful and often untrue.) You cannot use those articles to do that. UNLESS you have a reliable source.. a “credible source.” (which you don’t.)
3) Note that out of all the bullets you pointed out to support your use of “dubious sources” the following do not apply:
the written form of it have a high tendency to discredit the BK. The use of “weasel” words to discredit the BK movement is high.
This article has been referring to several other groups and how BKs are the “bad guys” when dealing with them. Your links about obscure newspapers and bias websites lacking reliability are the proof for that.
Therefore, please use reliable sources. Otherwise this article lacks validity. Best, 72.91.4.91 12:30, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
Avyakt7 Luis et All/BK Tech Team are deleting whole sections while claiming to be adding citation: http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Brahma_Kumaris_World_Spiritual_University&diff=next&oldid=83276240
So, once again the FULL TIME TECH TEAM is doing a hacket job on the article without denying any of the information or willing to answer "ONE" question posed to them. PEACE TalkAbout 14:20, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
Dear TalkAbout:
Here it is what it was removed as I stated before:
I am citing Kranenborg. He is a Professor, he has done research in this subject. Show your research counteracting this. This paragraph, (first one) is referring to what is BK? what is Raja Yoga? and when it was founded and by whom?. I could add the "millenarian" label if you feel appropriate. After all Christianity is considered a millenarianistic religion as well, however; I do not see that in their WIKI page.You have provided several books and links which do not match the content of this article. As we discussed before, BK material is out of the question unless it is quoted by a researcher. avyakt7 00:26, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
Talk About show us you research on this topic. At least one reference pointing to your article should be there.
Please do not make me repeat the same "record" over and over...Read my posts and show your research articles and then we can discuss this, otherwise; the page will be reverted. .244 has been warned and now you are being warned. Please show RELIABLE SOURCES. That is all... Thank you. Best 72.91.4.91 14:54, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
Now that the references match the opening paragraph and the "origin" header, let us focus on the section which I named "History" to avoid having two "origin" headers. Under History, user .244. please submit your reliable sources which are easily verifiable under Wikipedia rules to support that paragraph. Look forward to reading them. Thank you. 72.91.4.91 13:19, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
I am particularly interested in this statement: "Dada Lekhraj, known then as "Om Baba", in turn denounced the Congress as "Kansa" or wicked and under pressure of Hindu public opinion, the Sindh government reluctantly banned the Om Mandali, which went to court and had the ban order quashed." Sources?
and this one: "spending their time in intense spiritual study, meditation and alleged self-transformation. During this time, mediumistic female followers known as "Sandeshputris" or trance messengers helped add to their spiritual knowledge through psychic visions and allegedly direct contact with God." Sources? Note the use of weasel words.
and of course, i find this very interesting: "the community moved to Mount Abu, mainly due to the religious resistance to its activities in Pakistan." Sources, please?
BTW, both of your links about the "history" of BK do not have all the extra "flavor" (for lack of a better word)that you have added. Without sources to back this up, it will be deleted as well. Your turn. Best Wishes, 72.91.4.91 19:14, 25 October 2006 (UTC)