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-- Yellowdesk 20:08, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
I find myself somewhat skeptical of recent edits by Boxcutterman - this appears to be a single-purpose account. References have been deleted, and some of the edits appear to be from a POV. We do strive for NPOV and the article probably required/s a bit of clean up/organization, but a single opinion piece in the weekly standard by a conservative attorney who was not reappointed to the DoJ because of his involvment in the DoJ mess does not rise to the level of a "heavy criticism" of the Inspector General's report! The doubt the opinion piece casts on the conclusions of the DoJ report is negligible. Bdushaw ( talk) 04:53, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
Secondly, we need to use reliable sources. Reliable sources include major reputable news organizations, and major governmental agencies such as the DOJ Inspector General. Opinion pieces in lower-profile partisan journals are not particularly useful sources for an encyclopedia article. Thus, I share the concern over the undue weight being accorded Hans von Spakovsky's article. I'd welcome a response here from Boxcutterman so we can move forward. MastCell Talk 05:04, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
More specific dates: Todd Graves resigned March 24, 2006, at DoJ request. Per Washington Post Graves said he was forced to resign immediately and was told simply that he should resign to "give another person a chance." President Bush nominated John Wood on January 16, 2007 to replace Graves, per President's activities mid-January 2007. I suppose the idea was that Schlozman was just interim for those 10+3 months. The nomination was a week after Feinstein and Leahy sent their letter to Gonzales expressing concern about the Patriot Act problem. Gonzales testified before the Senate Judiciary Committee January 18, 2007. Rather odd that there should be all this hurry to have Graves resign to make room for someone, but then have the formal nomination 10 months later, eh? (But this falls in the category of original research, which is verbotten in an article.) Bdushaw ( talk) 10:40, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
The article suggests that Graves had refused to “sign off” on the ACORN voter registration fraud prosecutions which were filed shortly before the November 2006 election. That makes no sense. It was the Missouri NVRA lawsuit that Graves purportedly refused to “sign off” on. Indeed, Graves had resigned in April 2006. The underlying conduct leading to the ACORN prosecutions did not even occur until August or September of 2006. See http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/mow/news2007/davis_carmen.ind.htm. It is entirely illogical to suggest that Graves did not “sign off” on an indictment involving conduct that did not arise until at least four months after he had left office. There obviously was some very sloppy (and flat our erroneous) reporting by Nina Totenberg regarding this allegation. Indeed, we saw just how sloppy her reporting was with respect to the supposed “nomination/confirmation) of Schlozman (refuted above). Furthermore, it is critical to point out that, although Graves purportedly refused to “sign off” on these Missouri lawsuits, his name (along with Assistant Attorney General Wan Kim) appears on the complaint. See http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/voting/nvra/mo_nvra_comp.php. (My edits to the allegations in the complaint are found in paragraphs 13-14 of the Complaint.) It is disturbing that these accurate primary sources were deleted from the prior edits to this article. I will give the editors the benefit of the doubt, but it is clear that these primary sources are more accurate than any secondary source (particulary one which is so easy to prove was inaccurate). Boxcutterman ( talk) 11:53, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
I've removed the phrase giving Rich's association to this committee. It seemed irrelevant to the article, whereas Rich's 35 years of experience are relevant. I contemplated removing the sentence altogether, or including the often quoted "The timing of the Missouri indictments could not have made the administration's aims more transparent." This "Lawyer's Committee" claims to be nonpartisan, according to their website, hence the "liberal" label is disputed. Certainly if one is to paint Rich as a liberal unable to be objective in his assessment of the problems at the DoJ, a valid reference is required. Bdushaw ( talk) 03:42, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
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-- Yellowdesk 20:08, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
I find myself somewhat skeptical of recent edits by Boxcutterman - this appears to be a single-purpose account. References have been deleted, and some of the edits appear to be from a POV. We do strive for NPOV and the article probably required/s a bit of clean up/organization, but a single opinion piece in the weekly standard by a conservative attorney who was not reappointed to the DoJ because of his involvment in the DoJ mess does not rise to the level of a "heavy criticism" of the Inspector General's report! The doubt the opinion piece casts on the conclusions of the DoJ report is negligible. Bdushaw ( talk) 04:53, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
Secondly, we need to use reliable sources. Reliable sources include major reputable news organizations, and major governmental agencies such as the DOJ Inspector General. Opinion pieces in lower-profile partisan journals are not particularly useful sources for an encyclopedia article. Thus, I share the concern over the undue weight being accorded Hans von Spakovsky's article. I'd welcome a response here from Boxcutterman so we can move forward. MastCell Talk 05:04, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
More specific dates: Todd Graves resigned March 24, 2006, at DoJ request. Per Washington Post Graves said he was forced to resign immediately and was told simply that he should resign to "give another person a chance." President Bush nominated John Wood on January 16, 2007 to replace Graves, per President's activities mid-January 2007. I suppose the idea was that Schlozman was just interim for those 10+3 months. The nomination was a week after Feinstein and Leahy sent their letter to Gonzales expressing concern about the Patriot Act problem. Gonzales testified before the Senate Judiciary Committee January 18, 2007. Rather odd that there should be all this hurry to have Graves resign to make room for someone, but then have the formal nomination 10 months later, eh? (But this falls in the category of original research, which is verbotten in an article.) Bdushaw ( talk) 10:40, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
The article suggests that Graves had refused to “sign off” on the ACORN voter registration fraud prosecutions which were filed shortly before the November 2006 election. That makes no sense. It was the Missouri NVRA lawsuit that Graves purportedly refused to “sign off” on. Indeed, Graves had resigned in April 2006. The underlying conduct leading to the ACORN prosecutions did not even occur until August or September of 2006. See http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/mow/news2007/davis_carmen.ind.htm. It is entirely illogical to suggest that Graves did not “sign off” on an indictment involving conduct that did not arise until at least four months after he had left office. There obviously was some very sloppy (and flat our erroneous) reporting by Nina Totenberg regarding this allegation. Indeed, we saw just how sloppy her reporting was with respect to the supposed “nomination/confirmation) of Schlozman (refuted above). Furthermore, it is critical to point out that, although Graves purportedly refused to “sign off” on these Missouri lawsuits, his name (along with Assistant Attorney General Wan Kim) appears on the complaint. See http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/voting/nvra/mo_nvra_comp.php. (My edits to the allegations in the complaint are found in paragraphs 13-14 of the Complaint.) It is disturbing that these accurate primary sources were deleted from the prior edits to this article. I will give the editors the benefit of the doubt, but it is clear that these primary sources are more accurate than any secondary source (particulary one which is so easy to prove was inaccurate). Boxcutterman ( talk) 11:53, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
I've removed the phrase giving Rich's association to this committee. It seemed irrelevant to the article, whereas Rich's 35 years of experience are relevant. I contemplated removing the sentence altogether, or including the often quoted "The timing of the Missouri indictments could not have made the administration's aims more transparent." This "Lawyer's Committee" claims to be nonpartisan, according to their website, hence the "liberal" label is disputed. Certainly if one is to paint Rich as a liberal unable to be objective in his assessment of the problems at the DoJ, a valid reference is required. Bdushaw ( talk) 03:42, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
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