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We could use a bit of an elaboration here regarding the connection with Bogomils. Franjo Rački wrote about this in the 19th century... -- Joy [shallot] 10:49, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)
well who cares about Franjo R, what makes his story the correct one, he is not oficially accepted in terms of history.
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.209.173.153 ( talk • contribs) 01:34, 1 October 2005.
The text is very incorrect, it doesn't mention Bosniaks and their Bogumil heritage, the Bosnian church was a church made out only by Bosniaks and the curch was Bogumil...The bosnian church does not have anything to do with serbs or croats.... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.209.174.196 ( talk • contribs) 16:09, 26 September 2005.
Can anyone give some sources to this linking between the Bosnian Church and Bosniaks? HolyRomanEmperor 13:12, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
I'll gladly give you a linking; the bosnian church disappeared during the ottoman era. Why? the answer is simple: people converted to Islam (bosniaks), and therefore the destiny of the bosnian "church" was dissapearanc. Usual signs of the bosnian "church" are the so called "stecci" tombstones, which are of bogomil charcteristics. Damir Mišić 13:20, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
Quite a few users try to present Bosnian Christians as a dualist-manichaean sect connected with Macedonian-Bulgarian Bogomils. This view has been discarded: those who can read English and B/C/S can see for themselves:
Your sources are ridiculous, sorry but they are nothing but nationalistic fantasies coming true on poorly created private homepages on the net. And these facts on bogomil heritage are accepted mainstream facts, ever read John Fine, Noel Malcolm and other prominent historians in the field which claim the bogomil heritage? And you've even written that they don't go for the bogomil version? unbelievable Damir Mišić
How many followers did the Bosnian Church have? The numbers can be a great answer to things.
Dammit people, we can quarrel all we want, but not too much is actually known about the Church, and even less about its supposed connections with Islamic conversion. In any case, the Google book search gives some useful results. Here are a few interesting excerpts, so if anyone wants to dig it further, it would be appreciated:
"Being Muslim the Bosnian way: Identity and community in a central Bosnian village - Page 15" by Tone Bringa, Princeton University Press, ISBN 0691001758: [1]
"Islam and Bosnia: Conflict Resolution and Foreign Policy in Multi-ethnic States - Page 5" by Maya Shatzmiller, 2003 McGill-Queen's Press - MQUP, ISBN 0773512772 [2]
Duja ► 13:01, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
The History-Section is full of weasel phrases and speculations. -- Noirceuil 19:27, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
The article is just fine in its current state. I agree that it should be more thoroughly cited, but it is certainly not POV in any case. A lot of the facts speak for themselves; 1. As the turks arrived and the number of muslim adherents increased the krstjani shrunk. 2. The traits which the bogomil belief had in bulgaria was only even more strenghtened in bosnia when it arrived there, because of the relative religious freedom that was present in Bosnia, mostly because of its rather unpleasnt terrain. So once again, I will revert, because, as much as I can agree in that the article should be more cited, it is not POV. Ancient Land of Bosoni
I understand what it is you are trying to come through with, and I respect that, but I do not accept some parts of it. Once again, the article in its current shape describes the main stream theory/view of the Bosnian church - what you have written above is not mainstream, but rather individually based oppinions and interpretations of a few medieval documents, and so this cannot be given any greater importance in this context. However, wikipedia never discloses single non-main-stream theories, instead it is encouraged that the editors bring their own thoughts - but these thoughts cannot then be placed in the discriptive part of the article. So I suggest, that if you want to enter your oppinions above you should do so in a new subsection which you might call, let's say, simply "controversies" or "discussion/various theories". I am puzzled when you state that you've read noel's books because much of the fact you give are not Mr. Noel's own oppinions. If you pay a visit to Noel's bosnian institute on the web you will see for yourself that Noel upholds the bogomil characther of the church. And I get even more puzzled when you write that you doubt a bosniak connection with the church, which in fact has always been historically associated with the Bosniaks and more importantly their conversion to Islam. It should be noted that no one really knows when the bosnian church disappeared, it could have been as early as in the 1500s or as late as in the 1600s; Ottoman demographics didn't make any difference between christians, for them bogomils, catholics and orthodoxs were all the same. But the last Bosnian church documents showed up somewhere in the period when Islam was begining to seriously increase. I however agree that it is appropriate to call the bosnian church "protestantic", heretic was just a term that was used by the vatican in a degrogatory sense (not a term that I support nor use), the bosnian church was in deed the source from which the protestantism spread to western europe. To change line; it is an severe anachronism to make a connection with either serbia or croatia and the bosnian church, because the serbs and croats in Bosnia only developed their national serbian/croatian consciousness in the late 19th century. It is true that the "croats" and "serbs" in bosnia also belonged to this church, that is until they converted to main-stream christianity. There are records in the vatican which tell of christian raides to bosnia with the goal of converting the HERETIC bosnians, and they succedeed; in one day over 5.000 heretics (e.g Bogomils) were converted to catholic christianity (today's bosnian "croats"). The heretics which the vatican and orthodox church failed to convert remained in the church until the arrival of the turks, and converted only then to Islam (the Bosniaks). So it is true that all three gropus in Bosnia have connection to the church, but you have to remember that bosnian orthodoxs and catholics didn't recognize themselves as croat or serb at that time - they were Bosnjani. So what has happened in Bosnia is the spliting of the same people (Bosnjani) into three groups based on religion - and in the course of events the bosniaks turned out to be the only ones who remained in a Bosnian ethnic conciousness. You wrote that there weren't many krstjani left in the in the 15 th century, this is false - records of the amount of krstjani was never held so one could not know surely the extent of them. But most likely the bosnian church continued to exist as an underground movement where many of its adherents confessed to catholicism/orthodoxism in the eyes of these churces but yet never really did so. Kulin Ban, for example, confessed to catholicism but continued to support bogomils (as he himseld called them). Katarina Kosaca Kotromanic was reported with "heretic beliefs", her support for rome was merely an attempt to prevent as what she saw at that time as a destructive ottoman occupation of bosnia. The Bosnian church was an influencial part of Bosnia even until the 1600s, it is first then that its traces really began to disappear. Your statement of a few hundred adherents is nonreliable considering the amount of krsjtanian documents that circulated bosnia until mid 1600s, let's say a couple of tens of thousands instead, partly because only one in 3.000-5.000 or so could even write at that time to produce the highly litterate documents which originated within the bosnian church. I suggest you read more sources than just Noel's, who by the way is simply a journalist - not a historian if I recall correctly. Ancient Land of Bosoni
1. "Believed or reputed to be the case" (Supposedly bogomil, OR believed or reputed to be bogomil) 2. "Presumed to be true or real without conclusive evidence." (Supposedly bogomil, OR presumed to be bogomil (without conclusive evidence, but yet presumed!) Ancient Land of Bosoni
In order to not confuse you (which I perhaps did) I want you to understand what it is exactly I mean by "krstjanian documents" - I suppose you are familiar with the Bosnian cyrillic, this script arose within the bosnian church, so any trace of this script on bosnian sole is a direct evidence of the existence of bosnian church adherents, because it was native and exclusive to them (in Bosnia). And even though few religious documents from the bosnian church are found in late 16th century other non-religious contemporary documents written in bosnian cyrillic were nevertheless much more common; one should concentrate on the extent of bosnian cyrillic documents during this period rather than on the religious or nonreligious trait of the documents. In addition, there are even several religious documents left behind the bosnian church, in the form of steccis (tombs). They have common bogomil charactheristics very similiar to tombs found in Bulgaria, and most notably; not even barely a single one of them have any carved crosses, it speaks for itself. What does this have to do with resources?, we are talking about investigating a religious dominion, not digging up the pharaos grave or discovering atlantis on the bottom of a sea. All facts all allready presented, the steccis are discovered, the bosnian cyrillic letters are preserved - the last step depends on how the author inteprets these facts and perhaps even which political agenda he/she has. To me it is obvious that we are bogomils, and that you too are if you're a so called bosnian "Croat", and I doubt there is any split "scholarship" in the matter. The fact is that half of the croats support serb nationalist interpretations while the other half support the true bogomil nature of the church. To get off the record; bosnians don't need John Fine to come and learn them their own history, as long as Fine "shatters" he is not neutral, to shatter something this obvious either demands zero brain, hatred towards muslims or accepting a bride from the serbs. Conclusion: The Bosnian church is Bogomil, the ancestors of the bosniaks stayed true to the church the longest while catholics and orthodox christians in bosnia are a result of early abandonment of this indigenous church. When Islam came, it was easy for the Krsjtani to accept it since it had many resemblences with bogomilism. Also catholics and orthodox chritians converted to Islam, but only to a certain extent - catholics mostly to ortodoxism since this form of chritstianity was favored over catholicism, many catholics also fled to croatia. Orthodoxs converted to Islam but not in any larger figures since they make up a large proportion of the population in bosnia today, although many of them came from serbia as labour for the turks, but orthodox church records show however few losses of adherents. So the Bosnian church (which doesn't exist at all today) was replaced by mosques (which don't accept the cross either). P.S I read the debates above, that's how I found out about the bosnian institute. And no I haven't read Malcolm's book, but I have always considered him pro-bosnian...perhaps I shouldn't. Thank you! Ancient Land of Bosoni
And once again you were wrong my friend, I checked the definition of supposedly in two dictionaries, this is what I got: 1. "Believed or reputed to be the case" (Supposedly bogomil, OR believed or reputed to be bogomil) 2. "Presumed to be true or real without conclusive evidence." (Supposedly bogomil, OR presumed to be bogomil (without conclusive evidence, but yet presumed!) Ancient Land of Bosoni
I must say that the characterisation of the Bosnian Church as Bogomil is obsolete, are we ever gonna get rid of this shibboleth? It has been persuasively shown (Fine, Malcolm, etc.) that the Bosnian Church rose out of the Catholic Church (Bosnia had always been at least nominally Catholic after all,) and that it was merely schismatic/protestant and not heretical.. It has in fact nothing to do with Bogomilism. Now, we could write in the article that some dualist sect seems to have operated in Bosnia but this was a minor phenomenon that has been confused with the fairly orthodox (not to be confused with Orthodox), that is non-heretical, Bosnian Church.
Now, I am a Bosniak, but this Bosnian Muslim devotion to a Bogomil-theory, is not only ahistorical, it is pointless. The Bosnian Church had returned to the Catholic fold by the middle of the 15th century. Why our Catholic ancestry (mostly, for some Serbian, Hungarian (etc) muslims did immigrate later) should be less desirable than Bogomil is beyond me. That is, the Bosniak descent from (at least formal) Catholicism does not make them less Bosniak, nor does Catholicism make those medieval Bosnians less Bosnian. --Byronic[] 15:09, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
John Fine an amateur? He is a specialist in Balkan Medieval History, and as I said, his arguments are persuasive. Are you denying that Bosnia was Catholic before the Bosnian Church appeared? Tell me, what was the Bilino Polje (1203) renunciation about? A (at least official) return to Catholicism, or do you deny that? Bosnia was under Catholic religious jurisdiction and operation (the Bosnian diocese; the Vicariate). The Serbian muslims I was referring to I meant in a geographical/genetic sense, as for instance those Serbian converts to Islam who settled in Bosnia and mixed with the Bosnian muslims subsequently. For example, the town of Bosanski Samac was settled by Muslims from Serbia in the 1860s. But this is a minor influx. Anyway, of course, it seems that we (Bosnians) were never very orthodox in our beliefs and in medieval times, various beliefs, pagan, dualist etc, were tolerated and flourished, but clearly Bosnia belonged to the 'western' Christian sphere, so that the Bosnian border with Serbia was also the border between Catholicism and Orthodoxy. But don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that all or even many Bosnians were hardline catholics. By the way, your kneejerk description of me as 'not very familiar' with this is peculiar, particularly coming from someone who didn't even live in Bosnia. Anyway, the religious history of Bosnia is clear enough at least in broad outlines, this old rehashing of 19th century Bogomil historiography is political, obsolete and undiscerning. --Byronic[] 17:53, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
Check this out:
'In respect to its theology, the Church had some traits that were strongly divided from Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Christianity, the two most important of these being the denial of trinity and the Christian cross as a religious symbol; something significative for the "heretical" Bogomil beliefs.'
This is not tolerable. These are precisely some of the main myths demolished by Fine's studies. We should not let these blatant falsehoods be propagated here. Both the cross and the Trinity were perfectly acceptable concepts to the Bosnian Church.--Byronic 21:18, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the examples. I think it's time to revise the article in the light of these facts, and let Wikipedia be a part of the dismantling of these Bogomil myths so boldly propagated by dubious scholarship. --Byronic 17:56, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
The separation of Eastern Orthodox Catholicism from the Roman version happened in 1054, not 1079. I will now set this event to its actual date in the Article. The Mysterious El Willstro ( talk) 06:28, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
As Unicode has not encoded Bosančica as a separate script from Cyrillic, the proper way to represent Bosančica characters is using Cyrillic Unicode code points. Unicode encodes characters, not glyphs. Glyphs are encoded with fonts, not with Unicode codepoints, so representing “Црква Босанска” as “Цϸкvɖ Босɖɴскɖ” is technically incorrect. Remember that different people have different fonts which will represent these characters in different ways, and will do it in accordance with Unicode standards, so that the appearance of the word in question should not be represented through nonstandard characters. Using characters such as ancient Greek “sho” simply because they look similar to the script in question is not considered correct Unicode implementation; the proper way to make “Црква Босанска” look correct is to specify a Bosančica font, not to use unrelated codepoints. Vorziblix ( talk) 10:12, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
The only logic explanation to this are Serbs and Serbian history. I don't believe that they were bogomils. Next thing, stećci obviously doesn't have anything to do with the church. On some of them I can see people dancing kolo or oro as it called in Bulgaria and Macedonia. And if some of you connects the "cross" on it with church you're very wrong. It is so called "Serbian cross" represents the old tree of life 4 firesteels and the spark (liles on the Bosnian and Serbian coat-of-arms even today). It is 4 S letters written in Slavic cyrillic which came from old Scythian symbol for Life which looked like cyrillic letter Z (Ж) ( Жизн - in Slavic means LIFE), also in Sanscrit Surya means Sun, while we Serbs/Bosniaks say for it SUnce; for example descendants of Celts today say Grian for it, while in Serbian - Grijati means - to heat! Serbian is very close to sanskrit. Personally, I do believe that these stećci were all around the Balkans, much-much before the Slavic migrations and that something happened to it. If we can prove that Ottomans really forbid working of Serbian Orthodox Church or this one "Bosnian" in the years when they came to Balkan it becomes explainable what really happened. Bogomils with Bosnian church doesn't have ANYTHING. Nemanja kicked from the state some bogomils, but in those years and a way before he was even born first Serbian realm was established in present day Bosnia, Montenegro, even some Dalmatian lands (Croatia) with only Raška province of present day Serbia, and from there Serbs expanded their territory in the favor of Bulgarian empire which was their first neighbor and which launched many attacks on Serbian main province of Rascia (Raška). One time they almost succeeded in conquering whole Serbian realm, but Croats helped and saved the Serbs and after that whole present day southern Serbia becomes liberated. So, it is a bit strange that catholic ruler Nemanja would kick from his main province of Rascia (Raska) some bogomils to Bosnia or Croatia as they all were part of the same realm, lets say the same kind of people. Why would anyone send "troublemakers" from one province to another, it simply doesn't make any sense?! I really doubt that Bosnian church was any way sectarian! And simply this article is so confusing!
Maybe explainable through St. Sava?! St. Sava youngest son of Stefan Nemanja and prince of Zahumlje, became a monk. He put end to relligion divisions among the Serbs, as 1/2 were Roman-Catholics and other half Greek-Orthodox after the scism... Constant wars between them were constant because it was the war between Rome and Byzantine. Therefore, his two older brothers were in bloody wars so he came back home from monastery to stop the bloodshed and hatred between the brothers. So, someone should really investigate this a bit more, it really annoys because this whole article doesn't have sense at all! I think this might be some political provocation because it is no political-correct to say Serbian and especially no Orthodox church in the place where Roman-Catholicism were ruling, but you're all forgeting one IMPORTANT FACT - SERBS were baptized, CHRISTENED in 9th century last tribe so 2 centuries BEFORE THE GREAT SCISM and split between these 2 great powers - Roman-Catholics and Byzantine-Orthodox. Obviously we Serbs just picked the name Orthodox because it meant: old-christianity, traditional, simply CHRISTIANITY. PLEASE, INVESTIGATE and PUT THE VALID FACTS! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.150.71.220 ( talk) 07:55, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
Thats all the change I made. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.36.130.127 ( talk) 18:26, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
The text mentions that the Bosnians used "Slavic language" in liturgy. Which specifically? Slavic is a large and diverse language family. Bosnian would make sense in light of Hval's codex, but might it have been Church Slavonic? Hairy Dude ( talk) 00:26, 6 November 2015 (UTC)
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We could use a bit of an elaboration here regarding the connection with Bogomils. Franjo Rački wrote about this in the 19th century... -- Joy [shallot] 10:49, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)
well who cares about Franjo R, what makes his story the correct one, he is not oficially accepted in terms of history.
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.209.173.153 ( talk • contribs) 01:34, 1 October 2005.
The text is very incorrect, it doesn't mention Bosniaks and their Bogumil heritage, the Bosnian church was a church made out only by Bosniaks and the curch was Bogumil...The bosnian church does not have anything to do with serbs or croats.... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.209.174.196 ( talk • contribs) 16:09, 26 September 2005.
Can anyone give some sources to this linking between the Bosnian Church and Bosniaks? HolyRomanEmperor 13:12, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
I'll gladly give you a linking; the bosnian church disappeared during the ottoman era. Why? the answer is simple: people converted to Islam (bosniaks), and therefore the destiny of the bosnian "church" was dissapearanc. Usual signs of the bosnian "church" are the so called "stecci" tombstones, which are of bogomil charcteristics. Damir Mišić 13:20, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
Quite a few users try to present Bosnian Christians as a dualist-manichaean sect connected with Macedonian-Bulgarian Bogomils. This view has been discarded: those who can read English and B/C/S can see for themselves:
Your sources are ridiculous, sorry but they are nothing but nationalistic fantasies coming true on poorly created private homepages on the net. And these facts on bogomil heritage are accepted mainstream facts, ever read John Fine, Noel Malcolm and other prominent historians in the field which claim the bogomil heritage? And you've even written that they don't go for the bogomil version? unbelievable Damir Mišić
How many followers did the Bosnian Church have? The numbers can be a great answer to things.
Dammit people, we can quarrel all we want, but not too much is actually known about the Church, and even less about its supposed connections with Islamic conversion. In any case, the Google book search gives some useful results. Here are a few interesting excerpts, so if anyone wants to dig it further, it would be appreciated:
"Being Muslim the Bosnian way: Identity and community in a central Bosnian village - Page 15" by Tone Bringa, Princeton University Press, ISBN 0691001758: [1]
"Islam and Bosnia: Conflict Resolution and Foreign Policy in Multi-ethnic States - Page 5" by Maya Shatzmiller, 2003 McGill-Queen's Press - MQUP, ISBN 0773512772 [2]
Duja ► 13:01, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
The History-Section is full of weasel phrases and speculations. -- Noirceuil 19:27, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
The article is just fine in its current state. I agree that it should be more thoroughly cited, but it is certainly not POV in any case. A lot of the facts speak for themselves; 1. As the turks arrived and the number of muslim adherents increased the krstjani shrunk. 2. The traits which the bogomil belief had in bulgaria was only even more strenghtened in bosnia when it arrived there, because of the relative religious freedom that was present in Bosnia, mostly because of its rather unpleasnt terrain. So once again, I will revert, because, as much as I can agree in that the article should be more cited, it is not POV. Ancient Land of Bosoni
I understand what it is you are trying to come through with, and I respect that, but I do not accept some parts of it. Once again, the article in its current shape describes the main stream theory/view of the Bosnian church - what you have written above is not mainstream, but rather individually based oppinions and interpretations of a few medieval documents, and so this cannot be given any greater importance in this context. However, wikipedia never discloses single non-main-stream theories, instead it is encouraged that the editors bring their own thoughts - but these thoughts cannot then be placed in the discriptive part of the article. So I suggest, that if you want to enter your oppinions above you should do so in a new subsection which you might call, let's say, simply "controversies" or "discussion/various theories". I am puzzled when you state that you've read noel's books because much of the fact you give are not Mr. Noel's own oppinions. If you pay a visit to Noel's bosnian institute on the web you will see for yourself that Noel upholds the bogomil characther of the church. And I get even more puzzled when you write that you doubt a bosniak connection with the church, which in fact has always been historically associated with the Bosniaks and more importantly their conversion to Islam. It should be noted that no one really knows when the bosnian church disappeared, it could have been as early as in the 1500s or as late as in the 1600s; Ottoman demographics didn't make any difference between christians, for them bogomils, catholics and orthodoxs were all the same. But the last Bosnian church documents showed up somewhere in the period when Islam was begining to seriously increase. I however agree that it is appropriate to call the bosnian church "protestantic", heretic was just a term that was used by the vatican in a degrogatory sense (not a term that I support nor use), the bosnian church was in deed the source from which the protestantism spread to western europe. To change line; it is an severe anachronism to make a connection with either serbia or croatia and the bosnian church, because the serbs and croats in Bosnia only developed their national serbian/croatian consciousness in the late 19th century. It is true that the "croats" and "serbs" in bosnia also belonged to this church, that is until they converted to main-stream christianity. There are records in the vatican which tell of christian raides to bosnia with the goal of converting the HERETIC bosnians, and they succedeed; in one day over 5.000 heretics (e.g Bogomils) were converted to catholic christianity (today's bosnian "croats"). The heretics which the vatican and orthodox church failed to convert remained in the church until the arrival of the turks, and converted only then to Islam (the Bosniaks). So it is true that all three gropus in Bosnia have connection to the church, but you have to remember that bosnian orthodoxs and catholics didn't recognize themselves as croat or serb at that time - they were Bosnjani. So what has happened in Bosnia is the spliting of the same people (Bosnjani) into three groups based on religion - and in the course of events the bosniaks turned out to be the only ones who remained in a Bosnian ethnic conciousness. You wrote that there weren't many krstjani left in the in the 15 th century, this is false - records of the amount of krstjani was never held so one could not know surely the extent of them. But most likely the bosnian church continued to exist as an underground movement where many of its adherents confessed to catholicism/orthodoxism in the eyes of these churces but yet never really did so. Kulin Ban, for example, confessed to catholicism but continued to support bogomils (as he himseld called them). Katarina Kosaca Kotromanic was reported with "heretic beliefs", her support for rome was merely an attempt to prevent as what she saw at that time as a destructive ottoman occupation of bosnia. The Bosnian church was an influencial part of Bosnia even until the 1600s, it is first then that its traces really began to disappear. Your statement of a few hundred adherents is nonreliable considering the amount of krsjtanian documents that circulated bosnia until mid 1600s, let's say a couple of tens of thousands instead, partly because only one in 3.000-5.000 or so could even write at that time to produce the highly litterate documents which originated within the bosnian church. I suggest you read more sources than just Noel's, who by the way is simply a journalist - not a historian if I recall correctly. Ancient Land of Bosoni
1. "Believed or reputed to be the case" (Supposedly bogomil, OR believed or reputed to be bogomil) 2. "Presumed to be true or real without conclusive evidence." (Supposedly bogomil, OR presumed to be bogomil (without conclusive evidence, but yet presumed!) Ancient Land of Bosoni
In order to not confuse you (which I perhaps did) I want you to understand what it is exactly I mean by "krstjanian documents" - I suppose you are familiar with the Bosnian cyrillic, this script arose within the bosnian church, so any trace of this script on bosnian sole is a direct evidence of the existence of bosnian church adherents, because it was native and exclusive to them (in Bosnia). And even though few religious documents from the bosnian church are found in late 16th century other non-religious contemporary documents written in bosnian cyrillic were nevertheless much more common; one should concentrate on the extent of bosnian cyrillic documents during this period rather than on the religious or nonreligious trait of the documents. In addition, there are even several religious documents left behind the bosnian church, in the form of steccis (tombs). They have common bogomil charactheristics very similiar to tombs found in Bulgaria, and most notably; not even barely a single one of them have any carved crosses, it speaks for itself. What does this have to do with resources?, we are talking about investigating a religious dominion, not digging up the pharaos grave or discovering atlantis on the bottom of a sea. All facts all allready presented, the steccis are discovered, the bosnian cyrillic letters are preserved - the last step depends on how the author inteprets these facts and perhaps even which political agenda he/she has. To me it is obvious that we are bogomils, and that you too are if you're a so called bosnian "Croat", and I doubt there is any split "scholarship" in the matter. The fact is that half of the croats support serb nationalist interpretations while the other half support the true bogomil nature of the church. To get off the record; bosnians don't need John Fine to come and learn them their own history, as long as Fine "shatters" he is not neutral, to shatter something this obvious either demands zero brain, hatred towards muslims or accepting a bride from the serbs. Conclusion: The Bosnian church is Bogomil, the ancestors of the bosniaks stayed true to the church the longest while catholics and orthodox christians in bosnia are a result of early abandonment of this indigenous church. When Islam came, it was easy for the Krsjtani to accept it since it had many resemblences with bogomilism. Also catholics and orthodox chritians converted to Islam, but only to a certain extent - catholics mostly to ortodoxism since this form of chritstianity was favored over catholicism, many catholics also fled to croatia. Orthodoxs converted to Islam but not in any larger figures since they make up a large proportion of the population in bosnia today, although many of them came from serbia as labour for the turks, but orthodox church records show however few losses of adherents. So the Bosnian church (which doesn't exist at all today) was replaced by mosques (which don't accept the cross either). P.S I read the debates above, that's how I found out about the bosnian institute. And no I haven't read Malcolm's book, but I have always considered him pro-bosnian...perhaps I shouldn't. Thank you! Ancient Land of Bosoni
And once again you were wrong my friend, I checked the definition of supposedly in two dictionaries, this is what I got: 1. "Believed or reputed to be the case" (Supposedly bogomil, OR believed or reputed to be bogomil) 2. "Presumed to be true or real without conclusive evidence." (Supposedly bogomil, OR presumed to be bogomil (without conclusive evidence, but yet presumed!) Ancient Land of Bosoni
I must say that the characterisation of the Bosnian Church as Bogomil is obsolete, are we ever gonna get rid of this shibboleth? It has been persuasively shown (Fine, Malcolm, etc.) that the Bosnian Church rose out of the Catholic Church (Bosnia had always been at least nominally Catholic after all,) and that it was merely schismatic/protestant and not heretical.. It has in fact nothing to do with Bogomilism. Now, we could write in the article that some dualist sect seems to have operated in Bosnia but this was a minor phenomenon that has been confused with the fairly orthodox (not to be confused with Orthodox), that is non-heretical, Bosnian Church.
Now, I am a Bosniak, but this Bosnian Muslim devotion to a Bogomil-theory, is not only ahistorical, it is pointless. The Bosnian Church had returned to the Catholic fold by the middle of the 15th century. Why our Catholic ancestry (mostly, for some Serbian, Hungarian (etc) muslims did immigrate later) should be less desirable than Bogomil is beyond me. That is, the Bosniak descent from (at least formal) Catholicism does not make them less Bosniak, nor does Catholicism make those medieval Bosnians less Bosnian. --Byronic[] 15:09, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
John Fine an amateur? He is a specialist in Balkan Medieval History, and as I said, his arguments are persuasive. Are you denying that Bosnia was Catholic before the Bosnian Church appeared? Tell me, what was the Bilino Polje (1203) renunciation about? A (at least official) return to Catholicism, or do you deny that? Bosnia was under Catholic religious jurisdiction and operation (the Bosnian diocese; the Vicariate). The Serbian muslims I was referring to I meant in a geographical/genetic sense, as for instance those Serbian converts to Islam who settled in Bosnia and mixed with the Bosnian muslims subsequently. For example, the town of Bosanski Samac was settled by Muslims from Serbia in the 1860s. But this is a minor influx. Anyway, of course, it seems that we (Bosnians) were never very orthodox in our beliefs and in medieval times, various beliefs, pagan, dualist etc, were tolerated and flourished, but clearly Bosnia belonged to the 'western' Christian sphere, so that the Bosnian border with Serbia was also the border between Catholicism and Orthodoxy. But don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that all or even many Bosnians were hardline catholics. By the way, your kneejerk description of me as 'not very familiar' with this is peculiar, particularly coming from someone who didn't even live in Bosnia. Anyway, the religious history of Bosnia is clear enough at least in broad outlines, this old rehashing of 19th century Bogomil historiography is political, obsolete and undiscerning. --Byronic[] 17:53, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
Check this out:
'In respect to its theology, the Church had some traits that were strongly divided from Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Christianity, the two most important of these being the denial of trinity and the Christian cross as a religious symbol; something significative for the "heretical" Bogomil beliefs.'
This is not tolerable. These are precisely some of the main myths demolished by Fine's studies. We should not let these blatant falsehoods be propagated here. Both the cross and the Trinity were perfectly acceptable concepts to the Bosnian Church.--Byronic 21:18, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the examples. I think it's time to revise the article in the light of these facts, and let Wikipedia be a part of the dismantling of these Bogomil myths so boldly propagated by dubious scholarship. --Byronic 17:56, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
The separation of Eastern Orthodox Catholicism from the Roman version happened in 1054, not 1079. I will now set this event to its actual date in the Article. The Mysterious El Willstro ( talk) 06:28, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
As Unicode has not encoded Bosančica as a separate script from Cyrillic, the proper way to represent Bosančica characters is using Cyrillic Unicode code points. Unicode encodes characters, not glyphs. Glyphs are encoded with fonts, not with Unicode codepoints, so representing “Црква Босанска” as “Цϸкvɖ Босɖɴскɖ” is technically incorrect. Remember that different people have different fonts which will represent these characters in different ways, and will do it in accordance with Unicode standards, so that the appearance of the word in question should not be represented through nonstandard characters. Using characters such as ancient Greek “sho” simply because they look similar to the script in question is not considered correct Unicode implementation; the proper way to make “Црква Босанска” look correct is to specify a Bosančica font, not to use unrelated codepoints. Vorziblix ( talk) 10:12, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
The only logic explanation to this are Serbs and Serbian history. I don't believe that they were bogomils. Next thing, stećci obviously doesn't have anything to do with the church. On some of them I can see people dancing kolo or oro as it called in Bulgaria and Macedonia. And if some of you connects the "cross" on it with church you're very wrong. It is so called "Serbian cross" represents the old tree of life 4 firesteels and the spark (liles on the Bosnian and Serbian coat-of-arms even today). It is 4 S letters written in Slavic cyrillic which came from old Scythian symbol for Life which looked like cyrillic letter Z (Ж) ( Жизн - in Slavic means LIFE), also in Sanscrit Surya means Sun, while we Serbs/Bosniaks say for it SUnce; for example descendants of Celts today say Grian for it, while in Serbian - Grijati means - to heat! Serbian is very close to sanskrit. Personally, I do believe that these stećci were all around the Balkans, much-much before the Slavic migrations and that something happened to it. If we can prove that Ottomans really forbid working of Serbian Orthodox Church or this one "Bosnian" in the years when they came to Balkan it becomes explainable what really happened. Bogomils with Bosnian church doesn't have ANYTHING. Nemanja kicked from the state some bogomils, but in those years and a way before he was even born first Serbian realm was established in present day Bosnia, Montenegro, even some Dalmatian lands (Croatia) with only Raška province of present day Serbia, and from there Serbs expanded their territory in the favor of Bulgarian empire which was their first neighbor and which launched many attacks on Serbian main province of Rascia (Raška). One time they almost succeeded in conquering whole Serbian realm, but Croats helped and saved the Serbs and after that whole present day southern Serbia becomes liberated. So, it is a bit strange that catholic ruler Nemanja would kick from his main province of Rascia (Raska) some bogomils to Bosnia or Croatia as they all were part of the same realm, lets say the same kind of people. Why would anyone send "troublemakers" from one province to another, it simply doesn't make any sense?! I really doubt that Bosnian church was any way sectarian! And simply this article is so confusing!
Maybe explainable through St. Sava?! St. Sava youngest son of Stefan Nemanja and prince of Zahumlje, became a monk. He put end to relligion divisions among the Serbs, as 1/2 were Roman-Catholics and other half Greek-Orthodox after the scism... Constant wars between them were constant because it was the war between Rome and Byzantine. Therefore, his two older brothers were in bloody wars so he came back home from monastery to stop the bloodshed and hatred between the brothers. So, someone should really investigate this a bit more, it really annoys because this whole article doesn't have sense at all! I think this might be some political provocation because it is no political-correct to say Serbian and especially no Orthodox church in the place where Roman-Catholicism were ruling, but you're all forgeting one IMPORTANT FACT - SERBS were baptized, CHRISTENED in 9th century last tribe so 2 centuries BEFORE THE GREAT SCISM and split between these 2 great powers - Roman-Catholics and Byzantine-Orthodox. Obviously we Serbs just picked the name Orthodox because it meant: old-christianity, traditional, simply CHRISTIANITY. PLEASE, INVESTIGATE and PUT THE VALID FACTS! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.150.71.220 ( talk) 07:55, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
Thats all the change I made. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.36.130.127 ( talk) 18:26, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
The text mentions that the Bosnians used "Slavic language" in liturgy. Which specifically? Slavic is a large and diverse language family. Bosnian would make sense in light of Hval's codex, but might it have been Church Slavonic? Hairy Dude ( talk) 00:26, 6 November 2015 (UTC)
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