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the article was copied from page pforzheim. it should be on an own page, because it becomes larger and larger. -- 13:56, 2 February 2006 (UTC) Wega14
see Pforzheim and Bombing of Dresden in World War II -- Walter Görlitz 21:24, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
Some of the numbers can not be checked from the current reference.
"Short movie" under references ( http://www.pforzheim.de/filme/23feb_historisch/1PF_offline_mpg1.mpg) no longer exists. -- Owencm 16:20, 12 October 2009 (GMT)
I removed the direct link to Dresden in the text because there were a number of large raids betweem them, (this was industrial scale bombing): 14th Chemnitz: 499 aircraft; 17th,18th,18 Wesel: 298,160,168 aircraft; 19th Böhlen: 260; 20th Dortmund 528; 21st Duisburg 373, and Worms: 349; 23rd Essen 342 and many more smaller raids. -- Philip Baird Shearer 22:06, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
the source is on the german page available. (
http://www.bombenkrieg.historicum.net/themen/pforzheim.html) It should be controlled by somebody, which can read german.
the source on german page is controlled by:
(in english I found no source like that, sorry)
Prof. Dr. Gudrun Gersmann Universität zu Köln Historisches Seminar Albertus-Magnus-Platz D-50923 Köln Tel.: (0221) 470-4352 gudrun.gersmann@uni-koeln.de
Prof. Dr. Hubertus Kohle Ludwig-Maximilians-Universität München Institut für Kunstgeschichte Georgenstr. 7 D-80799 München Tel.: +49 (0)89/21805317 Fax : +49 (0)89/21805316 Hubertus.Kohle@lrz.uni-muenchen.de http://www.fak09.uni-muenchen.de/Kunstgeschichte
Sabine Büttner Universität zu Köln Historisches Seminar Albertus-Magnus-Platz D-50923 Köln Tel.: (0221) 470-4353 sabine.buettner@uni-koeln.de --—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Wega14 ( talk • contribs) 22:31, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
http://babelfish.altavista.com/ does a good job of translating the page here are some of the relevent points:
-- Philip Baird Shearer 22:56, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
I would like to add from that source:
Wega14 23:58, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
Dropped the tag on because
GraemeLeggett 17:02, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
AFAICT it was an Altavista translation. I have now integrated what I thought worth keeping of the text into the main section and deleted the translation. The facts and figures which are still in text of the article, that I could not verify from the given references in the reference section, were imported from the Pforzheim page which contains the following at the end of the history section:
It needs someone with access to these references to check them and add the necessary footnotes to the text. -- Philip Baird Shearer 23:40, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Hi Philip, ones and ones again, you give the sentence another meaning, as it had in the source. That isn't very exact work. sorry. Wega14 13:09, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
There are still a number of facts given in this article which are not in the current written sources, or have not been identified as the sources. As the figures and some of the other statment do not seem unreasonable it would be a shame to removed them just because there is no source given , so for the moment I have placed the not verified template on the top in the hope that someone can come up with the original sources and add them to the notes. -- Philip Baird Shearer 17:17, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
With my best wishes from Japan (no longer Pforzheim since early 80s but still caring very much for that heap of rubble on Wallberg), Hild 15:58, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
I have removed the "Template:not verified" as it seems to me that with the work people have put in since I put it there this article now reaches the standard of verification that few other Wikipedia articles manage. Well done everyone it has been a pleasure working on this page with you. -- Philip Baird Shearer 21:35, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
It should be noted that this was one of many britsh warcrimes against civilans during ww2 in Germany. Pure massmuder comited from some britsh soldirs from high above. well knowing what they are doeing. it is not honour to something like that.The population of these cites were predomiantly women, childeren and elderly people (the most man were on the front lines). The enormous loss of historical buildings, books and documents of a 2000 year old city history should be consiedered in the article. I feel it completly inappropriate that some britsh wiki user (like mister Blard s.) try to withwash massmurders.-- 84.167.201.68 20:27, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
It states that the allied pilots were "murdered" by civilians. This has been changed to killed. Wallie ( talk) 06:13, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
The pilots had committed war crimes. It is not surprising they were in turn murdered. And what of the crews of the US B-24 Liberator aircraft who "bombed the area around Kupferhammer and opened fire on crowds of civilians, leaving about 100 dead". Were they charged with murder or war crimes? Probably given a medal instead. We are always hearing aboutb Nazi war crimes, but never the allied ones.
"...even the rivers were burning as the phosphorus floated on the water". The British did not use phosphorous in incendiary bombs. They used aluminium/magnesium. German media frequently incorrectly reported "phosphorous". Rcbutcher ( talk) 05:14, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
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The damage done to the material civilization of Europe and Asia is one of the most distressing aspects of World War II. There should be a section on medieval buildings lost to the bombing, artwork destroyed, museums artifacts lost, etc. The RS's may swing heavily in the German language as far as numbers go. Any editors up for it? HammerFilmFan ( talk) 01:17, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
The article talks of a South African RAF airmen who served as master bomb aimer on that raid and won the last WWll RAF VIctoria Cross. The article states he was a major. The RAF did not have majors. Perhaps he was the equivalent of a major, which is Squadron Leader?
Some commissioned officer British Army to RAF equivalents are;
Second Lieutenant - Pilot Officer
Lieutenant - Flying Officer
Captain - Flight Lieutenant
Major - Squadron Leader
Lieutenant Colonel - Wing Commander
Colonel - Group Captain
Brigadier - Air Commodore
Major General - Air Vice Marshal
Lieutenant General - Air Marshal
General - Air Chief Marshal
Field Marshal - Marshal of the Royal Air Force — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.96.30.119 ( talk) 12:30, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
![]() | A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on February 23, 2011, February 23, 2013, and February 23, 2020. |
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the article was copied from page pforzheim. it should be on an own page, because it becomes larger and larger. -- 13:56, 2 February 2006 (UTC) Wega14
see Pforzheim and Bombing of Dresden in World War II -- Walter Görlitz 21:24, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
Some of the numbers can not be checked from the current reference.
"Short movie" under references ( http://www.pforzheim.de/filme/23feb_historisch/1PF_offline_mpg1.mpg) no longer exists. -- Owencm 16:20, 12 October 2009 (GMT)
I removed the direct link to Dresden in the text because there were a number of large raids betweem them, (this was industrial scale bombing): 14th Chemnitz: 499 aircraft; 17th,18th,18 Wesel: 298,160,168 aircraft; 19th Böhlen: 260; 20th Dortmund 528; 21st Duisburg 373, and Worms: 349; 23rd Essen 342 and many more smaller raids. -- Philip Baird Shearer 22:06, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
the source is on the german page available. (
http://www.bombenkrieg.historicum.net/themen/pforzheim.html) It should be controlled by somebody, which can read german.
the source on german page is controlled by:
(in english I found no source like that, sorry)
Prof. Dr. Gudrun Gersmann Universität zu Köln Historisches Seminar Albertus-Magnus-Platz D-50923 Köln Tel.: (0221) 470-4352 gudrun.gersmann@uni-koeln.de
Prof. Dr. Hubertus Kohle Ludwig-Maximilians-Universität München Institut für Kunstgeschichte Georgenstr. 7 D-80799 München Tel.: +49 (0)89/21805317 Fax : +49 (0)89/21805316 Hubertus.Kohle@lrz.uni-muenchen.de http://www.fak09.uni-muenchen.de/Kunstgeschichte
Sabine Büttner Universität zu Köln Historisches Seminar Albertus-Magnus-Platz D-50923 Köln Tel.: (0221) 470-4353 sabine.buettner@uni-koeln.de --—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Wega14 ( talk • contribs) 22:31, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
http://babelfish.altavista.com/ does a good job of translating the page here are some of the relevent points:
-- Philip Baird Shearer 22:56, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
I would like to add from that source:
Wega14 23:58, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
Dropped the tag on because
GraemeLeggett 17:02, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
AFAICT it was an Altavista translation. I have now integrated what I thought worth keeping of the text into the main section and deleted the translation. The facts and figures which are still in text of the article, that I could not verify from the given references in the reference section, were imported from the Pforzheim page which contains the following at the end of the history section:
It needs someone with access to these references to check them and add the necessary footnotes to the text. -- Philip Baird Shearer 23:40, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Hi Philip, ones and ones again, you give the sentence another meaning, as it had in the source. That isn't very exact work. sorry. Wega14 13:09, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
There are still a number of facts given in this article which are not in the current written sources, or have not been identified as the sources. As the figures and some of the other statment do not seem unreasonable it would be a shame to removed them just because there is no source given , so for the moment I have placed the not verified template on the top in the hope that someone can come up with the original sources and add them to the notes. -- Philip Baird Shearer 17:17, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
With my best wishes from Japan (no longer Pforzheim since early 80s but still caring very much for that heap of rubble on Wallberg), Hild 15:58, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
I have removed the "Template:not verified" as it seems to me that with the work people have put in since I put it there this article now reaches the standard of verification that few other Wikipedia articles manage. Well done everyone it has been a pleasure working on this page with you. -- Philip Baird Shearer 21:35, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
It should be noted that this was one of many britsh warcrimes against civilans during ww2 in Germany. Pure massmuder comited from some britsh soldirs from high above. well knowing what they are doeing. it is not honour to something like that.The population of these cites were predomiantly women, childeren and elderly people (the most man were on the front lines). The enormous loss of historical buildings, books and documents of a 2000 year old city history should be consiedered in the article. I feel it completly inappropriate that some britsh wiki user (like mister Blard s.) try to withwash massmurders.-- 84.167.201.68 20:27, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
It states that the allied pilots were "murdered" by civilians. This has been changed to killed. Wallie ( talk) 06:13, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
The pilots had committed war crimes. It is not surprising they were in turn murdered. And what of the crews of the US B-24 Liberator aircraft who "bombed the area around Kupferhammer and opened fire on crowds of civilians, leaving about 100 dead". Were they charged with murder or war crimes? Probably given a medal instead. We are always hearing aboutb Nazi war crimes, but never the allied ones.
"...even the rivers were burning as the phosphorus floated on the water". The British did not use phosphorous in incendiary bombs. They used aluminium/magnesium. German media frequently incorrectly reported "phosphorous". Rcbutcher ( talk) 05:14, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 05:51, 23 July 2017 (UTC)
The damage done to the material civilization of Europe and Asia is one of the most distressing aspects of World War II. There should be a section on medieval buildings lost to the bombing, artwork destroyed, museums artifacts lost, etc. The RS's may swing heavily in the German language as far as numbers go. Any editors up for it? HammerFilmFan ( talk) 01:17, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
The article talks of a South African RAF airmen who served as master bomb aimer on that raid and won the last WWll RAF VIctoria Cross. The article states he was a major. The RAF did not have majors. Perhaps he was the equivalent of a major, which is Squadron Leader?
Some commissioned officer British Army to RAF equivalents are;
Second Lieutenant - Pilot Officer
Lieutenant - Flying Officer
Captain - Flight Lieutenant
Major - Squadron Leader
Lieutenant Colonel - Wing Commander
Colonel - Group Captain
Brigadier - Air Commodore
Major General - Air Vice Marshal
Lieutenant General - Air Marshal
General - Air Chief Marshal
Field Marshal - Marshal of the Royal Air Force — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.96.30.119 ( talk) 12:30, 23 February 2020 (UTC)