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Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 00:45, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
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A lot has been added with cherry picked sources, I have taken a look at some sources and they are severely misinterpreted. Also the criticism section seems to be now larger than main article although he is uncontroversial historian.It needs to be toned down to due weight.-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 15:19, 19 March 2018 (UTC)
It is because he says something completely different and in much wider and bigger context about horrific ordeal that Jews and others went through in Holocaust.Basically that reactions are so strong due to terrible atrocity Holocaust was which due to suffering has made commemorating enormous losses and suffering an almost religious experience.-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 15:29, 19 March 2018 (UTC)
I have added a positive reception of his work from Alexander B. Rossino who is a research historian at the Center for Advanced Holocaust Studies of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington. In general I believe this section should be trimmed to bare essentials as it is now too bloated.-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 23:03, 19 March 2018 (UTC)
@
Volunteer Marek: - you
removed coverage of Musial in
WP:RSes covering historiography of the period. Reliably sourced (and attributed) information is not a BLP violation. The author,
Joanna Michlic (sole author in one, in second with Malgorzata Melchior
[2]
[3] who is also a scholar in the field), is an expert in historiography and the publishers
Leipziger Universitätsverlag
[1]
[2] and
University of Nebraska Press
[3] are acceptable and respected academic publishers. Similar text is also available in this journal article (possibly a copy/rewrite of what was in the book - but was published in a peer reviewed journal).
[4] Other authors have made similar claims in peer reviewed settings - e.g.
Norman Naimark "Bogdan Musial's bloated claims about extensive Jewish participation in Soviet crimes and justifiable Polish resentment against Jewish perpetrators beg the question."
[5] Where's the BLP vio here?
Icewhiz (
talk)
11:55, 6 May 2018 (UTC)
References
Academic schools are created by people sharing similar background, generation, views.
We've had Icewhiz try to turn this article into an BLP violating attack page. Let's avoid doing that again. This opinion is UNDUE and a BLP VIO. Volunteer Marek 20:46, 3 February 2021 (UTC)
Buidhe, after you were JUST told over at WP:BLPN that your edit violated BLP [8] you responded by... restoring one of indef banned user Icewhiz’s BLP violating edit. Remember that he got the topic banned for turning BLPs into attack pages? What in the world makes you think it’s a good idea to restore his old edits right after you were told at BLPN that your edit was a BLP vio? Please self revert. Volunteer Marek 23:04, 3 February 2021 (UTC)
Musial offers 24 pages detailing the misdeeds of Jews against Poles... but Musial only spends three pages on some 20 years of institutionalized Polish discrimination against Jews. In only a few places in the book does Musial admit the importance of traditional Polish Antisemitism.
Musial comes dangerously close to trivializing the nature of antisemitic attitudes among the local Slavs, and he does not do much in terms of analyzing them. On the contrary, by focusing on the register of “Jewish” crimes against the Polish people, it is not hard to see how this way of writing history could be interpreted as beneficial to the radical right or catering to those who interpret the escalation of hatred as a response to “Jewish” crimes.
The insistence that a communist conspiracy has prevented a critical examination of the (Judeo-)communist crimes against the Polish nation between 1939 and 1989 is nothing more than a political statement from the repertoire of extreme right-wing Polish nationalists. This is an example of what can be called the extreme anti-communist martyrdom deviation in post-1989 right-wing historical scholarship, which treats Judeo-communism not only as "a historical fact" but also as a part of contemporary reality. The notions of "speaking the truth" and "acting in the name of truth" always seem to accompany this position.
[Strzembosz and Musial's] strategy is used to imply that, even if the Poles were guilty of wrongs against the Jews at that time, the Jews were twice as guilty vis-a-vis the Poles... These highly politicized interpretations are interwoven with another main thesis put forward by these two historians about the sole responsibility and active participation of the Germans in the Jedwabne massacre and other similar anti-Jewish pogroms. Yet this thesis is inconsistent with their references to the participation of ethnic Poles in the anti-Jewish massacres. When they refer to this participation, they are quick to minimize its criminal nature and scope, and they insist that, in the majority of instances, it was the Germans who forced small groups of Poles to take part in the anti-Jewish violence. They also contrast this participation with a claim of help offered by ethnic Poles toJewish escapees. This view aims at balancing the good deeds and the crimes, and it belongs to the key narratives of the pre-Jedwabne hegemonic interpretation of Polish-Jewish relations during the Holocaust. In this narrative, the Christian Polish rescuers ofJews are treated instrumentally to support the thesis of solidarity and unity of Christian Poles with Jews during the Holocaust. Therefore, the low societal approval of their rescue activities within the local communities-which constitutes an important understudied aspect of historical inquiry-does not feature in this narrative.
For their part, Musial and Chodakiewicz insist that they are "speaking the truth" and "acting in the name of historical truth." They invoke truth as the premise and aim of their writing, but, in fact, they use it as a technique aiming at relativization and the distortion of the truth... Musial and Chodakiewicz insist that they are capable of unraveling the distorted representation of the past because they are the champions of sophisticated scientific methods that will free the profession from stereotypes about "Poland" and "Polish attitudes" during the Holocaust. What their claim stands for is the promotion of the one-dimensional traditionalist and ethnonationalist image of Poland as the community of heroes and victims.
...historian Bogdan Musiał, a newly appointed member of the Council of the Museum of World War II in Gdańsk and adviser to the chairman of the Instytut Pamięci Narodowej (IPN) [National Memory Institute], declared on state television channel TVP, “The Holocaust is a supplementary religion for Judaism.” According to Musiał, the Israeli reaction to the Polish law is a result of recognizing the memory of the Holocaust as a form of religion, in which emotions play a crucial role at the expense of facts. At the same time, Musiał defended the role of Polish Catholics and deflected blame for historical antisemitism to the political left. Asked about the Church’s role, he said: “Trying to get the Church into the Holocaust is a diversion of attention from the left-wing ideas that laid the foundations for national socialism.”
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to one external link on
Bogdan Musiał. Please take a moment to review
my edit. You may add {{
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Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 00:45, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Bogdan Musiał. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 23:16, 22 July 2017 (UTC)
A lot has been added with cherry picked sources, I have taken a look at some sources and they are severely misinterpreted. Also the criticism section seems to be now larger than main article although he is uncontroversial historian.It needs to be toned down to due weight.-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 15:19, 19 March 2018 (UTC)
It is because he says something completely different and in much wider and bigger context about horrific ordeal that Jews and others went through in Holocaust.Basically that reactions are so strong due to terrible atrocity Holocaust was which due to suffering has made commemorating enormous losses and suffering an almost religious experience.-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 15:29, 19 March 2018 (UTC)
I have added a positive reception of his work from Alexander B. Rossino who is a research historian at the Center for Advanced Holocaust Studies of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington. In general I believe this section should be trimmed to bare essentials as it is now too bloated.-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 23:03, 19 March 2018 (UTC)
@
Volunteer Marek: - you
removed coverage of Musial in
WP:RSes covering historiography of the period. Reliably sourced (and attributed) information is not a BLP violation. The author,
Joanna Michlic (sole author in one, in second with Malgorzata Melchior
[2]
[3] who is also a scholar in the field), is an expert in historiography and the publishers
Leipziger Universitätsverlag
[1]
[2] and
University of Nebraska Press
[3] are acceptable and respected academic publishers. Similar text is also available in this journal article (possibly a copy/rewrite of what was in the book - but was published in a peer reviewed journal).
[4] Other authors have made similar claims in peer reviewed settings - e.g.
Norman Naimark "Bogdan Musial's bloated claims about extensive Jewish participation in Soviet crimes and justifiable Polish resentment against Jewish perpetrators beg the question."
[5] Where's the BLP vio here?
Icewhiz (
talk)
11:55, 6 May 2018 (UTC)
References
Academic schools are created by people sharing similar background, generation, views.
We've had Icewhiz try to turn this article into an BLP violating attack page. Let's avoid doing that again. This opinion is UNDUE and a BLP VIO. Volunteer Marek 20:46, 3 February 2021 (UTC)
Buidhe, after you were JUST told over at WP:BLPN that your edit violated BLP [8] you responded by... restoring one of indef banned user Icewhiz’s BLP violating edit. Remember that he got the topic banned for turning BLPs into attack pages? What in the world makes you think it’s a good idea to restore his old edits right after you were told at BLPN that your edit was a BLP vio? Please self revert. Volunteer Marek 23:04, 3 February 2021 (UTC)
Musial offers 24 pages detailing the misdeeds of Jews against Poles... but Musial only spends three pages on some 20 years of institutionalized Polish discrimination against Jews. In only a few places in the book does Musial admit the importance of traditional Polish Antisemitism.
Musial comes dangerously close to trivializing the nature of antisemitic attitudes among the local Slavs, and he does not do much in terms of analyzing them. On the contrary, by focusing on the register of “Jewish” crimes against the Polish people, it is not hard to see how this way of writing history could be interpreted as beneficial to the radical right or catering to those who interpret the escalation of hatred as a response to “Jewish” crimes.
The insistence that a communist conspiracy has prevented a critical examination of the (Judeo-)communist crimes against the Polish nation between 1939 and 1989 is nothing more than a political statement from the repertoire of extreme right-wing Polish nationalists. This is an example of what can be called the extreme anti-communist martyrdom deviation in post-1989 right-wing historical scholarship, which treats Judeo-communism not only as "a historical fact" but also as a part of contemporary reality. The notions of "speaking the truth" and "acting in the name of truth" always seem to accompany this position.
[Strzembosz and Musial's] strategy is used to imply that, even if the Poles were guilty of wrongs against the Jews at that time, the Jews were twice as guilty vis-a-vis the Poles... These highly politicized interpretations are interwoven with another main thesis put forward by these two historians about the sole responsibility and active participation of the Germans in the Jedwabne massacre and other similar anti-Jewish pogroms. Yet this thesis is inconsistent with their references to the participation of ethnic Poles in the anti-Jewish massacres. When they refer to this participation, they are quick to minimize its criminal nature and scope, and they insist that, in the majority of instances, it was the Germans who forced small groups of Poles to take part in the anti-Jewish violence. They also contrast this participation with a claim of help offered by ethnic Poles toJewish escapees. This view aims at balancing the good deeds and the crimes, and it belongs to the key narratives of the pre-Jedwabne hegemonic interpretation of Polish-Jewish relations during the Holocaust. In this narrative, the Christian Polish rescuers ofJews are treated instrumentally to support the thesis of solidarity and unity of Christian Poles with Jews during the Holocaust. Therefore, the low societal approval of their rescue activities within the local communities-which constitutes an important understudied aspect of historical inquiry-does not feature in this narrative.
For their part, Musial and Chodakiewicz insist that they are "speaking the truth" and "acting in the name of historical truth." They invoke truth as the premise and aim of their writing, but, in fact, they use it as a technique aiming at relativization and the distortion of the truth... Musial and Chodakiewicz insist that they are capable of unraveling the distorted representation of the past because they are the champions of sophisticated scientific methods that will free the profession from stereotypes about "Poland" and "Polish attitudes" during the Holocaust. What their claim stands for is the promotion of the one-dimensional traditionalist and ethnonationalist image of Poland as the community of heroes and victims.
...historian Bogdan Musiał, a newly appointed member of the Council of the Museum of World War II in Gdańsk and adviser to the chairman of the Instytut Pamięci Narodowej (IPN) [National Memory Institute], declared on state television channel TVP, “The Holocaust is a supplementary religion for Judaism.” According to Musiał, the Israeli reaction to the Polish law is a result of recognizing the memory of the Holocaust as a form of religion, in which emotions play a crucial role at the expense of facts. At the same time, Musiał defended the role of Polish Catholics and deflected blame for historical antisemitism to the political left. Asked about the Church’s role, he said: “Trying to get the Church into the Holocaust is a diversion of attention from the left-wing ideas that laid the foundations for national socialism.”