An item related to this article has been nominated to appear on the Main Page in the " In the news" section. You can visit the nomination to take part in the discussion. Editors are encouraged to update the article with information obtained from reliable news sources to include recent events. Please remove this template when the nomination process has concluded, replacing it with Template:ITN talk if appropriate.

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Boeing Starliner article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed Article policies Neutral point of view No original research Verifiability

Find sources:  Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: 1Auto-archiving period: 30 days

This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Spaceflight: Space stations Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Spaceflight, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of spaceflight on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SpaceflightWikipedia:WikiProject SpaceflightTemplate:WikiProject Spaceflightspaceflight articles Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. This article is supported by the space stations working group. United States Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject United States, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of topics relating to the United States of America on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions. Template Usage Articles Requested! Become a Member Project Talk Alerts United StatesWikipedia:WikiProject United StatesTemplate:WikiProject United StatesUnited States articles Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

This article is written in American English, which has its own spelling conventions (color, defense, traveled) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.

This article has previously been nominated to be moved. Discussions: CST-100 Starliner → Boeing Starliner – Moved to Boeing CST-100 Starliner, 15 August 2018 ( Discussion) Boeing CST-100 Starliner → Boeing Starliner – Not moved, 25 August 2019 ( Discussion) Boeing CST-100 Starliner → Boeing Starliner – Moved, 5 July 2020 ( Discussion)

A anon user asserted that the sticky valves were caused by intense storms. This does not appear in any of the references, so I reverted. If it is in fact true, it should be in the paragraph about the test and not in the table entry, and it needs a reference. - Arch dude ( talk) 01:13, 1 September 2022 (UTC) reply

The tables are too long for comfort on some displays, and the entries in the "notes" and "remarks" columns are wordy and contain too much detail. An interested reader can go to the linked articles instead. I intend to trim these entries somewhat unless there is an objection. - Arch dude ( talk) 17:00, 1 October 2022 (UTC) reply

The last para in the lede tends to grow by accretion as we add a sentence for the latest major development. That last sentence is usually OK for the lede, but the earlier sentences are then not longer important enough for the lede. I intend to trim that paragraph. All of the actual info is still in the body of the article. - Arch dude ( talk) 14:57, 25 April 2023 (UTC) reply

I removed material in lede that was based on a 13-year-old reference. We know it launches on Atlas V. We know it will never launch on Delta IV. Launch on Falcon 9 is highly unlikely, and launch on Vulcan Centaur is problematical. All of this is described in two sections in the article body. I don't think we need anything but Atlas V in the lede. If things change we can change the article. - Arch dude ( talk) 02:26, 20 May 2023 (UTC) reply

Has the number of seats changed during development ? Infobox says 7, other places imply 4 or 5. - Rod57 ( talk) 12:55, 6 July 2023 (UTC) reply

@ Rod57: Initially designed for 7, 5 seats actually mounted, NASA CCP missions use four. On CCP missions, Boeing can apparently sell the fifth seat but the details are not known. There is somewhat similar confusion on Crew Dragon, which was originally designed for 7, has 4 seats mounted and will never launch with more than 4, but could apparently be used to bring 7 back from ISS in an emergency. - Arch dude ( talk) 16:48, 6 July 2023 (UTC) reply

I removed this:

• Since Boeing does not intend to build Spacecraft 4, no spare vehicle contingency exists for spacecraft issues (or loss) during NASA Commercial Crew contract.

It is not supported by the reference. The second part looks like Original resarch. Can someone find a reference? - Arch dude ( talk) 20:07, 11 October 2023 (UTC) reply

Note also that NASA does have a contingency, namely Crew Dragon, so the statement will need to be modified even if we do find a reference. - Arch dude ( talk) 20:11, 11 October 2023 (UTC) reply

@ RickyCourtney: I was not objecting to mention of OIG scrutiny. The problem is that the particular comparison was from a 2019 OIG analysis of CCP as a whole, but the sentence in the lede makes it appear that it was directed specifically at Boeing/Starliner. It is a side issue that has been picked up (probably from Wikipedia) by Joey Foust and other journalists. There are very real and very important problems that have required much more scrutiny. I think they are in the Reuters article that Foust referenced. - Arch dude ( talk) 15:49, 17 June 2024 (UTC) reply

After reading the IG report, I see what you mean.

Perhaps we could reword it like this:

Because of the multiple delays, Boeing has lost more than $1.5 billion on the project. NASA's inspector general has criticized the agency for overpaying Boeing for Starliner flights. Observers have also criticized the $90 million per-seat cost for flights on the spacecraft, which is over 60% higher than the $55 million for the Crew Dragon.

Or we can leave out the per-seat costs:

Because of the multiple delays, Boeing has lost more than $1.5 billion on the project. NASA's inspector general has criticized the agency for overpaying Boeing for Starliner flights. Observers have also criticized the cost for flights on the spacecraft, which are over 60% higher than on the competing Crew Dragon.

RickyCourtney ( talk) 18:37, 17 June 2024 (UTC) reply

Better, but the problem with the per-seat cost comparison is that so far NASA has not paid anything for Starliner CCP seats! I think (not sure) that Boeing is locked in to the $90M/seat for six missions (Crew-1 to 6). NASA paid the $55M/seat for the first six Crew Dragon missions, but those have already flown. The seat price rose for the first contract extension (Crew-7 to 9) and again for the second contract extension (Crew-10 to 14). The prices rose by approximately the inflation rate. I think we should drop the prices fromt helede, but we need a section in the article about the more recent increased oversight and the cost to NASA of that oversight. We can then add a one-sentence description in the lede, since it is a big part of the Starliner story. - Arch dude ( talk) 20:28, 17 June 2024 (UTC) reply

I still think it's important context. A recent article, which takes into account the costs through Crew-14 states:

"Boeing, in flying 24 astronauts, has a per-seat price of $183 million. SpaceX, in flying 56 astronauts during the same time frame, has a seat price of $88 million. Thus, NASA is paying Boeing 2.1 times the price per seat that it is paying SpaceX, inclusive of development costs incurred by NASA."

If we want to avoid getting into the numbers, which is admittedly a moving target, we could say:

Because of the multiple delays, Boeing has lost more than $1.5 billion on the project. The price paid per flight has also drawn criticism from NASA's inspector general and from observers who point to significantly lower costs on the competing Crew Dragon.

RickyCourtney ( talk) 20:55, 17 June 2024 (UTC) reply