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What is the university's endowment size? — Eustress talk 01:11, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
This article has experienced significant vandalism problems in the past when "notable graduates" have been mentioned on the article page. The separate "list" has seen much less vandalism, probably >5% of what used to occur on the main page. The guidelines say that sections may be "customized...depending on need and type of institution." Here there is a need for abbreviation. While there are quite a few BJU alumni who have their own WP bios, few to none meet the qualifications given in the rubric: "alumni who have won major scholarships (Rhodes, Fulbright, etc.), major awards (Nobel, Oscar, Pulitzer, etc.), served as heads of government or other major political office, or otherwise held elite or notable distinctions (astronauts, professional athletes, CEOs, etc.)."-- John Foxe ( talk) 19:17, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
If Jamie Langston Turner is a notable person -- nice though she may be, she is not widely known outside of BJU circles -- than the Rector of one of the largest Episcopal Churches in the nation (David R. Anderson) and the CIO of a Fortune 1000 company are notable people. Moreover, if it is notable to mention an "update" to university facilities including "Papa John's, Chik fil A and Brody's Grill," then the mention of an incident that made national headlines in 1998 when Bob Jones University banned a prominent alumnus and retired pastor from campus (Dr. Wayne Mourtizen), threatened him with arrest, and then subsequently backtracked when the University's Museum & Gallery's tax exempt status became an issue -- especially since the ban letters subsequently received by all former students specifically mention the M&G being excluded from a campus ban -- is a notable piece of information for an encyclopedia entry. I have cited credible sources. Disappearing information that Bob Jones University administration feels uncomfortable about is not the purpose of Wikipedia editing. Brodacious ( talk) 00:14, 5 March 2014 (UTC) Brodacious
The article, especialyl its introduction, is written with the assumption that the reader is in the USA - "all fifty states" isn't qualified as referring to the US, the 'Department of Education' isn't qualified as being the US DoE, etc. Though it's not particularily difficult to unearth the location of these places, isn't it standard policy to remove regional bias? I forget them name of it. I know spelling differences are left in the style of whoever first wrote the article, and that there's going to be a natural bias towards writing articles for the Young White American, but the article still seems very Amero-centric (if that's the word), and besides being simply off-putting makes it that much harder to read. -- Dd 8630 ( talk) 17:14, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
There's been some recent reverting back and forth over this [1]. I'm not aware of the exact distinctions between the two terms, but in my limited experience "fundamentalist" is the more common term. Either way, it should probably be discussed here before making the change again. (As a side note, I can't think of a Wikipedia policy saying that we need to stay as closely as possible to the original language when paraphrasing, or that we can't use synonyms to keep the language more in line with the rest of the article.) ~ Adjwilley ( talk) 16:51, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
Thank you.
Looking over this article, I wonder whether or not it meets the criteria of WP:What_Wikipedia_is_not. For example, "When you wonder what should or should not be in an article, ask yourself what a reader would expect to find under the same heading in an encyclopedia." For example, some of the controversies and rules of conduct seem strange for an encyclopedia. Many other schools have guidelines and rules and controversies. Some of them might be necessary, but to me much of the stuff in here doesn't seem consistent with notability; Why would an editor choose some rules to highlight and not others? Who decides what is notable? Why are those specific ones chosen? Anyone have any thoughts on this?-- Llama36 ( talk) 17:28, 15 September 2012 (UTC)
Some of the criticism (or a summary of it) should be included in the opening paragraphs. It's important and what best describes this institution. Seeing how much of the criticism has now been corrected this would mean that the opening paragraph would remain neutral (i.e. They didn't permit interracial dating until recently)-- ЗAНИA talk WB talk] 12:24, 6 January 2013 (UTC)
The citation that BJU is a for-profit school is based on the organization of the entity as one without tax exempt status, which is what people judge colleges' status by on some level, but it is inaccurate. I am almost certain they are organized as a non-profit corporation and just don't have tax exempt status, but there is ambiguity among reliable sources about that, so I think that the article shouldn't claim the university to be for-profit or not, and should clarify this in the text. BranSul ( talk) 19:06, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
Apparently, the administration of Bob Jones University referred to victims of sexual assault as "liars" and "sinners", and coerced them not to report the assaults because doing so would "damage Jesus Christ". The university hired a fundamentalist Christian consulting firm to audit its practices regarding sexual assault, but then fired the consulting firm without explanation just before its report was due to be completed. ( New York Times, Washington Post. Is this notable? Should it be mentioned in the article? MastCell Talk 06:10, 12 February 2014 (UTC)
It's very notable and should be worked into the controversies section. 98.117.83.122 ( talk) 23:50, 12 February 2014 (UTC)
As can be seen all over this talk page, the consensus is that the article whitewashes the schools long history of straight up racist policies. There is no doubt that pushing the information into a "controversies" section is an attempt to cover up this racism. Further attempts to use WP:Wikilawyering in an attempt to make this school look better on Wikipedia will be seen as exactly that. Abductive ( reasoning) 19:22, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
On Wikipedia we are encouraged to "avoid having a separate section in an article devoted to criticism" (see WP:CRIT), and this article got to the imbalanced point where the Criticism section had 18k characters compared to only 1k in the History section. The criticism is a part of the university's history and should be presented in an NPOV light. Likewise, some of the detail is best presented in a dedicated History (see WP:SS). I've made an attempt at addressing these issues by creating History of Bob Jones University, which preserves a lot of the outstanding research that's been done previously while trying to restore balance to this article. — Eustress 20:00, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
I was invited to restore balance to this discussion (see above). While I think this new entry is valuable, well cited and well written by User:Eustress (kudos!), I think that the title of the article is erroneous and must be changed. This article deals with issues and controversies, not history in the plain Wikipedia sense of the term. Of course I recognize that the issues are historical, as is anything in the past, but standard Wikipedia users seeing this title would not be looking predominantly for Religious Issues, Race Relations, and Political Involvement (the only three sections currently). This is not my subjective opinion. I just search within Wikipedia for "History University" and many articles appear on the History of many academic institutions and just the first 5 I searched all had a chronological history (things like Beginnings, foundations, formal establishment, further growth, the 19th century, establishment of new colleges and schools, succession of presidents and deans, etc.). Therefore I believe this page must be retitled to something like "History of Bob Jones University Controversies". Alternatively, and perhaps better, you could add standard BJU history to this article based on precedents I just mentioned, but even then, to make sense the new material should be equal or greater in content than the current material on controversies, and place the current material as subpoints under a section called "History of Controversies". In general, the history of controversy, even when well documented, is fraught with problems of subjectivity and debate and viewpoints. But the year of founding, registration, student enrollment, addition of majors and schools, names of presidents and deans, etc., is more encyclopedic, and of course that is what Wikipedia is designed for. Bob Jones University is at the center of much controversy, but this article title is not the appropriate place in my opinion.-- Llama36 ( talk) 09:34, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
FYI, there is a COI investigation pertaining to this article at Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest/Noticeboard#Bob_Jones_University. — Eustress 23:03, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
A few editors including myself have sought to remove the following text from the lead on grounds of POV/boosterism.
Though the conservative religious, cultural, and political stances taken by the university have often generated controversy, they have also resulted in greater institutional influence than might have been anticipated from a college of its size. [1]
Based on the sources recently provided, I don't think they substantiate any claim about the uni's religion/culture/politics resulting in unduly great influence. I think all we're safe to say is something like "The university is known for its conservative religious, cultural, and political stances." — Eustress 23:18, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
The quotations cited are under "Response to Victims" and in the Q&A under "The report recommended removal/discontinued use of sermons or materials that may contain information abuse/assault victims find insensitive. What is the status?" I'll be happy to add those sub-citation to the note.-- John Foxe ( talk) 13:42, 17 March 2015 (UTC)
In a March 2015 response, University president Steve Pettit said that a former prosecutor with the U.S. Attorney's office had uncovered no "instances where the University failed to comply with its reporting obligations" and that although it would review all sermons and materials cited in the G.R.A.C.E. report, the University endorsed the writings of Jim Berg as "faithful to Scripture" and would continue to use them in BJU courses and distribute them through BJU Press. [1]
References
I am not hiding anything. I am giving the most important part of the information - what the president himself said. Why you think covering BJU's ass on a legal basis is important, is beyond me. Please explain. Jytdog ( talk) 23:33, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
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some southern accreditation group is cited as 2017 but the linked citation claims 2011. but both are superseded by the Wiki page of the so-called accreditation group. "Established 1895, Dissolved 2006 i don't care if 2011 or 2017 the organization still didn't exist. -- Qazwiz ( talk) 00:17, 8 September 2017 (UTC)
Would it be appropriate to include Steve Taylor track "We Don't Need No Color Code" from Meltdown (Steve Taylor album), as an example of protests against their Inter-racial dating ban?
He's discussed it in various places - see here for examples.
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What is the university's endowment size? — Eustress talk 01:11, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
This article has experienced significant vandalism problems in the past when "notable graduates" have been mentioned on the article page. The separate "list" has seen much less vandalism, probably >5% of what used to occur on the main page. The guidelines say that sections may be "customized...depending on need and type of institution." Here there is a need for abbreviation. While there are quite a few BJU alumni who have their own WP bios, few to none meet the qualifications given in the rubric: "alumni who have won major scholarships (Rhodes, Fulbright, etc.), major awards (Nobel, Oscar, Pulitzer, etc.), served as heads of government or other major political office, or otherwise held elite or notable distinctions (astronauts, professional athletes, CEOs, etc.)."-- John Foxe ( talk) 19:17, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
If Jamie Langston Turner is a notable person -- nice though she may be, she is not widely known outside of BJU circles -- than the Rector of one of the largest Episcopal Churches in the nation (David R. Anderson) and the CIO of a Fortune 1000 company are notable people. Moreover, if it is notable to mention an "update" to university facilities including "Papa John's, Chik fil A and Brody's Grill," then the mention of an incident that made national headlines in 1998 when Bob Jones University banned a prominent alumnus and retired pastor from campus (Dr. Wayne Mourtizen), threatened him with arrest, and then subsequently backtracked when the University's Museum & Gallery's tax exempt status became an issue -- especially since the ban letters subsequently received by all former students specifically mention the M&G being excluded from a campus ban -- is a notable piece of information for an encyclopedia entry. I have cited credible sources. Disappearing information that Bob Jones University administration feels uncomfortable about is not the purpose of Wikipedia editing. Brodacious ( talk) 00:14, 5 March 2014 (UTC) Brodacious
The article, especialyl its introduction, is written with the assumption that the reader is in the USA - "all fifty states" isn't qualified as referring to the US, the 'Department of Education' isn't qualified as being the US DoE, etc. Though it's not particularily difficult to unearth the location of these places, isn't it standard policy to remove regional bias? I forget them name of it. I know spelling differences are left in the style of whoever first wrote the article, and that there's going to be a natural bias towards writing articles for the Young White American, but the article still seems very Amero-centric (if that's the word), and besides being simply off-putting makes it that much harder to read. -- Dd 8630 ( talk) 17:14, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
There's been some recent reverting back and forth over this [1]. I'm not aware of the exact distinctions between the two terms, but in my limited experience "fundamentalist" is the more common term. Either way, it should probably be discussed here before making the change again. (As a side note, I can't think of a Wikipedia policy saying that we need to stay as closely as possible to the original language when paraphrasing, or that we can't use synonyms to keep the language more in line with the rest of the article.) ~ Adjwilley ( talk) 16:51, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
Thank you.
Looking over this article, I wonder whether or not it meets the criteria of WP:What_Wikipedia_is_not. For example, "When you wonder what should or should not be in an article, ask yourself what a reader would expect to find under the same heading in an encyclopedia." For example, some of the controversies and rules of conduct seem strange for an encyclopedia. Many other schools have guidelines and rules and controversies. Some of them might be necessary, but to me much of the stuff in here doesn't seem consistent with notability; Why would an editor choose some rules to highlight and not others? Who decides what is notable? Why are those specific ones chosen? Anyone have any thoughts on this?-- Llama36 ( talk) 17:28, 15 September 2012 (UTC)
Some of the criticism (or a summary of it) should be included in the opening paragraphs. It's important and what best describes this institution. Seeing how much of the criticism has now been corrected this would mean that the opening paragraph would remain neutral (i.e. They didn't permit interracial dating until recently)-- ЗAНИA talk WB talk] 12:24, 6 January 2013 (UTC)
The citation that BJU is a for-profit school is based on the organization of the entity as one without tax exempt status, which is what people judge colleges' status by on some level, but it is inaccurate. I am almost certain they are organized as a non-profit corporation and just don't have tax exempt status, but there is ambiguity among reliable sources about that, so I think that the article shouldn't claim the university to be for-profit or not, and should clarify this in the text. BranSul ( talk) 19:06, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
Apparently, the administration of Bob Jones University referred to victims of sexual assault as "liars" and "sinners", and coerced them not to report the assaults because doing so would "damage Jesus Christ". The university hired a fundamentalist Christian consulting firm to audit its practices regarding sexual assault, but then fired the consulting firm without explanation just before its report was due to be completed. ( New York Times, Washington Post. Is this notable? Should it be mentioned in the article? MastCell Talk 06:10, 12 February 2014 (UTC)
It's very notable and should be worked into the controversies section. 98.117.83.122 ( talk) 23:50, 12 February 2014 (UTC)
As can be seen all over this talk page, the consensus is that the article whitewashes the schools long history of straight up racist policies. There is no doubt that pushing the information into a "controversies" section is an attempt to cover up this racism. Further attempts to use WP:Wikilawyering in an attempt to make this school look better on Wikipedia will be seen as exactly that. Abductive ( reasoning) 19:22, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
On Wikipedia we are encouraged to "avoid having a separate section in an article devoted to criticism" (see WP:CRIT), and this article got to the imbalanced point where the Criticism section had 18k characters compared to only 1k in the History section. The criticism is a part of the university's history and should be presented in an NPOV light. Likewise, some of the detail is best presented in a dedicated History (see WP:SS). I've made an attempt at addressing these issues by creating History of Bob Jones University, which preserves a lot of the outstanding research that's been done previously while trying to restore balance to this article. — Eustress 20:00, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
I was invited to restore balance to this discussion (see above). While I think this new entry is valuable, well cited and well written by User:Eustress (kudos!), I think that the title of the article is erroneous and must be changed. This article deals with issues and controversies, not history in the plain Wikipedia sense of the term. Of course I recognize that the issues are historical, as is anything in the past, but standard Wikipedia users seeing this title would not be looking predominantly for Religious Issues, Race Relations, and Political Involvement (the only three sections currently). This is not my subjective opinion. I just search within Wikipedia for "History University" and many articles appear on the History of many academic institutions and just the first 5 I searched all had a chronological history (things like Beginnings, foundations, formal establishment, further growth, the 19th century, establishment of new colleges and schools, succession of presidents and deans, etc.). Therefore I believe this page must be retitled to something like "History of Bob Jones University Controversies". Alternatively, and perhaps better, you could add standard BJU history to this article based on precedents I just mentioned, but even then, to make sense the new material should be equal or greater in content than the current material on controversies, and place the current material as subpoints under a section called "History of Controversies". In general, the history of controversy, even when well documented, is fraught with problems of subjectivity and debate and viewpoints. But the year of founding, registration, student enrollment, addition of majors and schools, names of presidents and deans, etc., is more encyclopedic, and of course that is what Wikipedia is designed for. Bob Jones University is at the center of much controversy, but this article title is not the appropriate place in my opinion.-- Llama36 ( talk) 09:34, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
FYI, there is a COI investigation pertaining to this article at Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest/Noticeboard#Bob_Jones_University. — Eustress 23:03, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
A few editors including myself have sought to remove the following text from the lead on grounds of POV/boosterism.
Though the conservative religious, cultural, and political stances taken by the university have often generated controversy, they have also resulted in greater institutional influence than might have been anticipated from a college of its size. [1]
Based on the sources recently provided, I don't think they substantiate any claim about the uni's religion/culture/politics resulting in unduly great influence. I think all we're safe to say is something like "The university is known for its conservative religious, cultural, and political stances." — Eustress 23:18, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
The quotations cited are under "Response to Victims" and in the Q&A under "The report recommended removal/discontinued use of sermons or materials that may contain information abuse/assault victims find insensitive. What is the status?" I'll be happy to add those sub-citation to the note.-- John Foxe ( talk) 13:42, 17 March 2015 (UTC)
In a March 2015 response, University president Steve Pettit said that a former prosecutor with the U.S. Attorney's office had uncovered no "instances where the University failed to comply with its reporting obligations" and that although it would review all sermons and materials cited in the G.R.A.C.E. report, the University endorsed the writings of Jim Berg as "faithful to Scripture" and would continue to use them in BJU courses and distribute them through BJU Press. [1]
References
I am not hiding anything. I am giving the most important part of the information - what the president himself said. Why you think covering BJU's ass on a legal basis is important, is beyond me. Please explain. Jytdog ( talk) 23:33, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
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Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 08:34, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 23:03, 4 November 2016 (UTC)
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 13:39, 22 July 2017 (UTC)
some southern accreditation group is cited as 2017 but the linked citation claims 2011. but both are superseded by the Wiki page of the so-called accreditation group. "Established 1895, Dissolved 2006 i don't care if 2011 or 2017 the organization still didn't exist. -- Qazwiz ( talk) 00:17, 8 September 2017 (UTC)
Would it be appropriate to include Steve Taylor track "We Don't Need No Color Code" from Meltdown (Steve Taylor album), as an example of protests against their Inter-racial dating ban?
He's discussed it in various places - see here for examples.
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 16:22, 30 March 2020 (UTC)