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There are several teachings of the Nation of Islam which are undeniable of Black Supremacist nature.
Additional to the Yakub doctrine, it's the teaching of the Nation of Islam that Allah, (God) himself is the original and supreme black man and that all black men today are a part of this God-race and the black race is thus divine and superior to all other races.
Furthermore, it's also the teaching of the Nation of Islam that some time in the future, Allah will bring a spaceship into the earth's atmosphere and bomb the cities of the world so that the unconverted white race will be purged from the world.
I think it's perfectly reasonable to include the Nation of Islam into this article.
Additional, the article should also mention other organizations founded by former NOI members, such as Khalid Abdul Muhammed's "New black panther party" and their call for white genocide (“We kill the women. We kill the babies. We kill the blind. We kill the cripples. We kill them all. When you get through killing them all, go to the goddamn graveyard and kill them a-goddamn-gain because they didn’t die hard enough.” Khalid Abdul Muhammed) and the former NOI member and self-proclaimed black messiah Hulon Mitchell Jr., leader of the Yahweh ben Yahweh cult who urged his followers to murder "white devils" and bring him back body parts - a sliced-off ear or finger or head - as proof of the kill.
Also, The Black African Holocaust Council, a anti-white/anti-semitic organization, could be at least mentioned in the article. Pharlap 05:36, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)
So far, however, the only seemingly bona fide example of a black supremacist group is the old Rastafari (something I didn't know until I read this piece). There are probably others, but we should be clear just what black supremacy is and which groups claim it as a core ideology/belief. deeceevoice 11:31, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Pharlap, great stuff! So that this discussion thread can be followed more closely, I've taken the liberty of moving your addition here to the section below. (Hope you don't mind.) deeceevoice 12:41, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Again, the New Black Panther party is considered a hate-group by many people. While you have the right to disagree with them, you do not have the right to falsely claim that these views do not exist. When you do so, you lose credibility. RK (Posted March 22, 2005)
Silly. My comments were about the discussion on the talk page -- not about the article itself. And whether the New Black Panther Party is a hate group or not has no bearing whatsoever on this article. At issue is whether or not they are a black supremacist group; the two are not one and the same. Why is that so difficult for you to understand? Let's try to exercise a little common sense, some discernment, people! deeceevoice 19:02, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I strongly disagree, The Nation of Islam are textbook black supremacists, indeed I can think of no better example. Does anyone else remember the meeting between Elijah Muhammad and George Lincoln Rockwell? They found they had alot in common. [1]. ( Sam Spade | talk | contributions) 11:50, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)
The NOI also joined forces with the Ku Klux Klan (even inviting Metzger to a NOI rally in Los Angeles) and the Lyndon LaRouche's organization. Khalid Muhammad joined forces with the Aryan Nations, the Posse Comitatus and former Klan leader and Aryan Nations recruiter Louis Beam, and Garvey even invited a KKK spokesman to speak at one of his rallies. We should include all that in the article as well. Pharlap 12:50, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)
That makes no damned sense; is downright silly. Of course there's a difference. One can hate another group without believing oneself to be superior to them. deeceevoice 01:50, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
"And for your information, never in history has there been a difference between racist supremacist groups and hate groups." RK deeceevoice 21:37, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)
---
From the Final Call, all articles © Copyright 2005 FCN Publishing, FinalCall.com
"You, Black man, are the Original. You are not naturally inclined to sin. You are naturally inclined to Allah (God). If you were in the right environment you would be more god-like than you are. The Black Man, or gods of the Black Man, are infinitely wise. They are being aroused to their Wisdom today to rule the people again throughout the ages of time." (Reprinted from "Our Saviour Has Arrived," 1974.)
"Not only is our Black Nation to become the equal, but it is to become the superior of the Nations of Earth, as it is written (Bible) that we shall no more be the tail, but the head." (Reprinted from Muhammad Speaks, October 17, 1969.)
"Allah came to us from the Holy City Mecca, Arabia, in 1930. He used the name Wallace D. Fard, often signing it W. D. Fard, in the third year .... He measured and weighed the earth and its water; the history of the moon, the history of the two nations, Black and White, that dominate the earth. He gave the exact birth of the White race, the name of their God who made them and how; and the end of their time, the judgment, how it will begin and end....He declared the doom of America for her evils to us was past due. And that she is number one to be destroyed. He described the destruction of world with bombs, poison gas, and finally with fire that would consume and destroy everything in the present world. Nothing of the present world of White mankind would be left. Those escaping the destruction would not be allowed to carry anything out with them. He pointed out a destructive dreadful-looking plane that is with bombs, made like a wheel in the sky today. It is a half-mile by a half-mile square; it is a humanly built planet. It is up there and can be seen twice a week; it is no secret." (Reprinted from “Message To The Blackman,” 1965.) Pharlap 12:38, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC) ---
Again, this is great stuff. I think there's enough info now to take this and incorporate it into the article -- perhaps a subhead of "Black supremacist groups" and then with separate third-level headers under that for "Rastafari[anism]" and "The Nation of Islam"? Also, it would be great to find something in Elijah Muhammad's own words on this subject. Question: do adherents of the NOI still believe that lunacy about spaceships? Or has this, like black supremacy in Rastafari, fallen by the wayside?
This material also brings another issue to mind. White supremacy is founded on a belief in the inherent superiority of whites and, for all intents and purposes, since the end of the Crusades -- and certainly with the trans-Atlantic slave trade and the subsequent rise of world capitalism -- white dominance has been pretty much a fact of history, generally. It's a given. So, when we describe black supremacy, we speak of it in terms of solely a belief in the inherent superiority of blacks. But not addressed in that definition is the belief that is so strongly enunciated here that blacks should dominate. Now, this is a corollary of white supremacy that is considerably less common, among even those who believe blacks to be inherently superior ot whites -- but an extremely important one. The article, I think, rightly puts black supremacy in a kind of liberation theology framework. But, clearly, it needs to address the NOI as a group that preaches not just black empowerment, inherent black superiority, but that advocates black domination (whatever that means).
Another question: in that regard, is the NOI pretty much sui generis? Also, in light of this material, it would seem that the definition herein of black supremacy and the Wiki article on the Nation needs some expanding to include the notion of dominance. And the paragraph ending in: "By comparison, there is no powerful, far-reaching nexus of instruments under black control that have a corollary effect on whites. Nor does there appear to be a significant desire on the part of so-called 'black supremacists' to have one" as well needs an addition which cites notable exceptions to this general rule. deeceevoice 13:07, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Yes, I realized that when I went back and read the piece again (because of the reference to "Message to the Black Man" before I clicked "save page" and, I thought deleted that sentence (along with a question which I did delete). But something else comes to mind upon reading this again: this "humanly built planet" -- is that literally "human," or are these the "aliens" to whom someone (you?) referred earlier? It's not clear to me. deeceevoice 16:39, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Certainly not! Land seizures in Zimbabwe are part of a policy of land reform and are not "black supremacy" in operation. From the bad old days when the nation was called Rhodesia, whites controlled the majority of the land, and the most lucrative land. When virtually any nation struggles to reorganize its economy and mete out some degree of economic justice after a prolonged period of colonialism and usurpation of the land by a few/an oligarchy, the issue of land reform comes to the fore. It must, because, particularly in the third world, land is the basis of all wealth; it is the engine that sustains families, as well as national economies. As tragic, catastrophic and seemingly unjust as land reform can be for the few families of privilege stripped of their holdings by the new order, the status quo is far more tragic, far more unjust. If the ruling class is based on color privilege, on white supremacy -- as it was in Zimbabwe, as it was in South Africa -- then the policies of the new order that seek to topple the old regime and restore some semblance of equanimity to land (and power) distribution, to the superficial or ignorant observer, can take on the appearance of a reverse kind of supremacy, of black supremacy -- particularly when accompanied by race-based resentment/animus on the part of the colonized. The fact is land reform in Zimbabwe is no more black supremacist than was, say, "land reform" in post-revolutionary France, when the peasants and former serfs took possession of old estates and refused to ante up.
The issue of land reform isn't all you misunderstand, apparently. My comments spoke to the somewhat limited definition of "black supremacy" as a belief in the superiority of blacks. My comment was that the definition should be expanded to include a belief, among some black supremacists, in black dominance -- nothing more. And black power is most certainly not the same as black supremacy! deeceevoice 16:28, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I'm half-asleep, reworking the section explaining black supremacy, and when the edit takes, I see this great image. I'm awake. Thanks, Pharlap. deeceevoice 12:10, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)
HI DC, as per your recent reversion of the changes I made, I must admit I am quite baffled. You posted here two ~20yr old scientific studies on melanin in animals but I fail to see how any of this relates to black supremacy or even to the so called melanin theory. There is no existing information on any connection between Vertiligo an black supremacy [3] and it therefore is what is called on wikipedia "original research" which is not permitted. Also I'm rather disappointed that you took my inclusion of the statement "in the early 1970's led to a bizarre chapter in the history of the black supremacy movment which involved pseudoscientific..." and somehow twisted it into "black supremacy IS bizarre" when I said no such thing. I was merely referring to the PERIOD in its history where the supremacists used the incorrect idea that melanin is a superconductor to bolster claims of superiority. That's very bizarre thing, don't you think? Also you have not provided any refrence or source for the incorrect scientific claims you put back into the page. (again, with the "melanin is a replacement for inorganic semiconductors" mention being the most outrageously incorrect) I must insist that they remain out of the article until sources are noted. Then, I'd be happy to include them, but as it is now, I see nothing supporing this view. Cheers.-- Deglr6328 17:43, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I think parts of Deeceevoice melanin essay can still be used in this article, since it is a prime example of black supremacist thought: Whites are all defective albino mutants, therefor whiteness is a horrible disease and therefor white people suffer collectively from all kind of disorders, like uncontrollable aggressive behavior, limited intellectual capacities, deafness, vitiligo (which, by the way, affects all races and both sexes equally, according to the National Institutes of Health) and all other kinds of nerve degeneration, and will therefor never evolve intellectually, physically or spiritually past the level of a sick dog or cat. Blacks, on the other side, are the super(conductor)humans, and, because of their built in supreme melanin based electrical and neural skin-to-brain network, which would even emit flashs of light when switched on, they are the supreme humans with superior intellectual, physical and spiritual capacities ... indeed bizarre ... Pharlap 00:09, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)
More info:This is from the University of Queensland website I provided earlier. I'm still looking for the specific reference, but here's one very similar. The introductory paragraph states:
Our main materials of interest are Melanins, and synthetic conducting polymers such as MEH-PPV. Currently, our application focus is 4th generation photovoltaics ... although various forms of biocompatible sensor may make an appearance in the very near future. A growing area of biophysical interest is the spectroscopic signature of Melanin pigment contained within cancerous melanoma. Here are brief descriptions of our main research projects....
Conducting Molecular Crystals (collaboration with NSW Physics) Over the past few years there has been an explosion of interest in the field of "plastic [or organic] electronics". These are semiconducting and conducting organic polymers and molecular crystals, which one day may replace conventional inorganic materials such as silicon and gallium arsenside in high technology devices. [emphasis added]
Note: Gallium arsenide films and silicon are used in microchips -- as are melanin films. Looking less and less like crackpot science, eh? And, no. The content I've offered cannot be described as "original research." I'm not the one in the lab probing the possible uses of melanin. Melanin Theory is what it is. And the bona fide scientific properties of melanin are what they are. Those who subscribe to Melanin Theory have been following the field -- just as they have known about the discovery of melanin as a semiconductor for more than 30 years. Further, the 2000 Nobel Prize for Chemistry fueled even more interest in the theory. There's a distinct connection. And as I said earlier, if I'm reading an article on Melanin Theory, I'd want to know what the hell is behind it. The explanation of the properties of melanin provides that information. deeceevoice 07:45, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Melanin and quantum chemistry:
Quantum chemistry of melanin semiconductors - supervisors: Ross McKenzie and Paul Meredith
The melanins are a unique class of biopolymer found throughout nature [1]. They are based upon heteropolymers of indolequinones and indolequinone carboxylic acids. In humans, they act mainly as pigments and photoprotectants. In recent years, these materials have also been found in the inner ear and brain stem. No one really knows why they are there, or how they function. A common theory is that the biopolymers act as charge transport mediators. What is clear, is that the melanins are the only know[n] biopolymeric solid-state semiconductors. They are also UV/Vis broad band absorbers - the property at the heart of their pigmentary and photoprotectant functions. [emphasis added]
The electronic structure of these materials is of great interest to medical and biophysical researchers alike. The pi-electron Huckel method is one of the simplest ways to calculate the electronic band structure for organic molecular crystals. This has been done for a perfect crystal of 5-6 indolequinone [2], which is one of the most abundant constituents of eumelanin (the most common form of the biopolymer, and the major component of human skin pigment). This project will extend these calculations to the class of melanin semiconductors that will be used in electronic devices at UQ and will also consider the effect of disorder on semiconducting properties. In so doing, it is hoped that we will gain insight into: electron transport mechanisms in these disordered heteropolymer semiconductor; possible routes to achieve "tuning" of electrical properties; the dependence of conductivity on molecular weight, monomer ratio, and other characteristic chemical properties. These findings will be integrated with experimental observations to build more complete knowledge of these exotic, and potentially useful biopolymers.
And about the Proctor website:And, Deglr, I followed your link to the Proctor site. Curiously, I don't see anything "loony" or "preposterous" about what I skimmed only briefly. I skimmed it because it simply seems to repeat the same, basic info on the link between melanin and deafness in mammals -- or, cats, at least -- that the London Royal National Institute for the Deaf and Dr. George Strain did. If it's not "loony" or "preposterous" when they address the phenomenon of melanin-related deafness, then it's not preposterous on the Proctor site. He also, interestingly, provides a link to the 1970s research that is the genesis of Melanin Theory, "Amorphous Semiconductor Switching in Melanins," as it appeared in Science magazine. (Another "loony," "preposterous" publication?) :-p deeceevoice 08:08, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Well, darlin', you dug it up; you can read it! My first reaction to that information, though, is that it doesn't seem outrageous at all. Melanin clearly does mediate energy conduction and transduction, and sound is a form of energy. But since science isn't my chosen field, I'd have to decode "electron-phonon coupling" before I could say anything more. I perceive a fundamental difference between you and me. I keep an open mind and investigate to inquire, rather than to automatically debunk. Inquiry is the essence of science, the essence of learning. I have other things to do, so I didn't read the Proctor site thoroughly. But the sections that caught my eye make perfect sense, particularly in light of the other findings that support the information he presents to which I've already alluded. Additionally, I have to say that I briefly googled "melanin conduction deafness," and the three words do seem to appear frequently in the same articles. I haven't time to search through the sites; but, hey, sounds intriguing/interesting to me. deeceevoice 08:38, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)
There's a simple fix to your objection, deglr: delete the specific reference to microchips, and the statement is absolutely sound. deeceevoice 10:46, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I'm up working on a project, but I'm remembering a comment by someone that melanin's conductivity is too low to be useful in electronics devices. But I recalled reading something somewhere about "doped melanin." I googled it. I turned up:
"Semiconductors in the human body?" from our Solid State Physics Correspondent
"...Now at least one biological material has been shown to have a strikingly large conductivity when correctly excited. McGinness, Corry and Proctor, of the University of Texas Cancer Center, Houston, report in Science (183, 853; 1974) that melanins can be made to 'switch' from a poorly conducting to a highly conducting state at fairly low electric fields (say from 10K ohm- cm to 100 ohm-cm at a field of 300 V cm-1). This remarkable phenomenon occurs both in melanin made synthetically from tyrosine and in that extracted from a human melanoma. The large conduction is not destructive in any way and is reversible;. According to some tests, conduction seems to be electronic rather than ionic...."
And then a lengthy examination of different types of melanin and their properties which states, in part:
I determined last night that much of what I've presented here should go in melanin, which is why this a.m. I put a note on that article's discussion page directing them to this discussion thread -- in the hopes that persons who've contributed to that article, who are more familiar with the field of plastic (organic) electronics, will take it further. (When I first came to the article on melanin, it said nothing about high-tech applications or biotech research.) I've been meaning to get back to this article, but I don't have the time right now (or the patience). When I do, I'll reinsert/insert some appropriate, pared-down language briefly referring to the physical properties of melanin that I believe are relevant to Melanin Theory and refer readers to melanin. In presenting much of what appears here in the talk section re ongoing melanin research, I was simply providing information in response to the debate about research applications, melanin's physical properties and its connection with deafness and Parkinson's -- unless someone has done/does it first, to my satisfaction. Much of it is not something I have any intention of inserting into the article. deeceevoice 18:22, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)
One more thing, Deglr, re "civil rights era grandmas": in the future, when we have discussions/debates in the future, let's stick to the subject at hand and leave the personal remarks out of it. deeceevoice 06:33, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
This reads like an excuse for your childishness. The corollary of white supremacy -- which is widespread -- is the notion of black inferiority, and it is pervasive -- insidiously so -- (as Wareware has demonstrated repeatedly and quite admirably). That whites and other nonblacks would be accustomed to such a notion is not surprising -- nor is it racist to state such. By the way, subtlety (if you hadn't noticed) is generally not something for which I generally strive. :-p Besides, when stating the obvious, IMO, it would be silly/a wasted exercise. deeceevoice 10:33, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Never said what things"? Never mind. It's not important, because I never insinuated you were "racist." Insinuation isn't exactly my style, either. :-p If it's something you inferred from what I wrote, then there was a misunderstanding. For all I know, you could be, but as a matter of fact, the only person I know for a fact is racist in this discussion is Wareware -- because of his repeated use of racial slurs. deeceevoice 21:28, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Aw, get over it, Pharlap! What? And I suppose you haven't noticed all the racist crap around here? I suppose we should all ignore it and pretend everything's just hunky-dory, eh? I see openly addressing the race bias on Wiki as being constructive. Besides, what I have to say about Wiki on my personal page has nothing to do with this discussion -- speaking of "spend[ing] our energies on more constructive discussions." And speaking of this discussion, would you care to explain to me why someone like Wareware continues to spew racial slurs with complete impunity? Why people like you see fit to criticize me for calling attention to a very real problem, yet you have absolutely nothing to say in the way of reproval or criticism about or to a Wiki member who uses words like "ape," "savage" and "jungle" when referring to a black person? And you think when you criticize me you have some kind of credibility? Hypocrites like you are really laughable. Credibility? You got none. Criticism from someone like you reads like glowing praise. Thanks for the compliment. *x* deeceevoice 10:08, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
As it stands right now, the melanin theory bit contains some copyvios. I don't know who added them (nor do I particualrly care) but please be careful of direct text copying. All that's needed are some phrasing tweaks to make everything ok. I'll leave it to others... -- Deglr6328 04:14, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
There are several teachings of the Nation of Islam which are undeniable of Black Supremacist nature.
Additional to the Yakub doctrine, it's the teaching of the Nation of Islam that Allah, (God) himself is the original and supreme black man and that all black men today are a part of this God-race and the black race is thus divine and superior to all other races.
Furthermore, it's also the teaching of the Nation of Islam that some time in the future, Allah will bring a spaceship into the earth's atmosphere and bomb the cities of the world so that the unconverted white race will be purged from the world.
I think it's perfectly reasonable to include the Nation of Islam into this article.
Additional, the article should also mention other organizations founded by former NOI members, such as Khalid Abdul Muhammed's "New black panther party" and their call for white genocide (“We kill the women. We kill the babies. We kill the blind. We kill the cripples. We kill them all. When you get through killing them all, go to the goddamn graveyard and kill them a-goddamn-gain because they didn’t die hard enough.” Khalid Abdul Muhammed) and the former NOI member and self-proclaimed black messiah Hulon Mitchell Jr., leader of the Yahweh ben Yahweh cult who urged his followers to murder "white devils" and bring him back body parts - a sliced-off ear or finger or head - as proof of the kill.
Also, The Black African Holocaust Council, a anti-white/anti-semitic organization, could be at least mentioned in the article. Pharlap 05:36, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)
So far, however, the only seemingly bona fide example of a black supremacist group is the old Rastafari (something I didn't know until I read this piece). There are probably others, but we should be clear just what black supremacy is and which groups claim it as a core ideology/belief. deeceevoice 11:31, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Pharlap, great stuff! So that this discussion thread can be followed more closely, I've taken the liberty of moving your addition here to the section below. (Hope you don't mind.) deeceevoice 12:41, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Again, the New Black Panther party is considered a hate-group by many people. While you have the right to disagree with them, you do not have the right to falsely claim that these views do not exist. When you do so, you lose credibility. RK (Posted March 22, 2005)
Silly. My comments were about the discussion on the talk page -- not about the article itself. And whether the New Black Panther Party is a hate group or not has no bearing whatsoever on this article. At issue is whether or not they are a black supremacist group; the two are not one and the same. Why is that so difficult for you to understand? Let's try to exercise a little common sense, some discernment, people! deeceevoice 19:02, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I strongly disagree, The Nation of Islam are textbook black supremacists, indeed I can think of no better example. Does anyone else remember the meeting between Elijah Muhammad and George Lincoln Rockwell? They found they had alot in common. [1]. ( Sam Spade | talk | contributions) 11:50, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)
The NOI also joined forces with the Ku Klux Klan (even inviting Metzger to a NOI rally in Los Angeles) and the Lyndon LaRouche's organization. Khalid Muhammad joined forces with the Aryan Nations, the Posse Comitatus and former Klan leader and Aryan Nations recruiter Louis Beam, and Garvey even invited a KKK spokesman to speak at one of his rallies. We should include all that in the article as well. Pharlap 12:50, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)
That makes no damned sense; is downright silly. Of course there's a difference. One can hate another group without believing oneself to be superior to them. deeceevoice 01:50, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
"And for your information, never in history has there been a difference between racist supremacist groups and hate groups." RK deeceevoice 21:37, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)
---
From the Final Call, all articles © Copyright 2005 FCN Publishing, FinalCall.com
"You, Black man, are the Original. You are not naturally inclined to sin. You are naturally inclined to Allah (God). If you were in the right environment you would be more god-like than you are. The Black Man, or gods of the Black Man, are infinitely wise. They are being aroused to their Wisdom today to rule the people again throughout the ages of time." (Reprinted from "Our Saviour Has Arrived," 1974.)
"Not only is our Black Nation to become the equal, but it is to become the superior of the Nations of Earth, as it is written (Bible) that we shall no more be the tail, but the head." (Reprinted from Muhammad Speaks, October 17, 1969.)
"Allah came to us from the Holy City Mecca, Arabia, in 1930. He used the name Wallace D. Fard, often signing it W. D. Fard, in the third year .... He measured and weighed the earth and its water; the history of the moon, the history of the two nations, Black and White, that dominate the earth. He gave the exact birth of the White race, the name of their God who made them and how; and the end of their time, the judgment, how it will begin and end....He declared the doom of America for her evils to us was past due. And that she is number one to be destroyed. He described the destruction of world with bombs, poison gas, and finally with fire that would consume and destroy everything in the present world. Nothing of the present world of White mankind would be left. Those escaping the destruction would not be allowed to carry anything out with them. He pointed out a destructive dreadful-looking plane that is with bombs, made like a wheel in the sky today. It is a half-mile by a half-mile square; it is a humanly built planet. It is up there and can be seen twice a week; it is no secret." (Reprinted from “Message To The Blackman,” 1965.) Pharlap 12:38, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC) ---
Again, this is great stuff. I think there's enough info now to take this and incorporate it into the article -- perhaps a subhead of "Black supremacist groups" and then with separate third-level headers under that for "Rastafari[anism]" and "The Nation of Islam"? Also, it would be great to find something in Elijah Muhammad's own words on this subject. Question: do adherents of the NOI still believe that lunacy about spaceships? Or has this, like black supremacy in Rastafari, fallen by the wayside?
This material also brings another issue to mind. White supremacy is founded on a belief in the inherent superiority of whites and, for all intents and purposes, since the end of the Crusades -- and certainly with the trans-Atlantic slave trade and the subsequent rise of world capitalism -- white dominance has been pretty much a fact of history, generally. It's a given. So, when we describe black supremacy, we speak of it in terms of solely a belief in the inherent superiority of blacks. But not addressed in that definition is the belief that is so strongly enunciated here that blacks should dominate. Now, this is a corollary of white supremacy that is considerably less common, among even those who believe blacks to be inherently superior ot whites -- but an extremely important one. The article, I think, rightly puts black supremacy in a kind of liberation theology framework. But, clearly, it needs to address the NOI as a group that preaches not just black empowerment, inherent black superiority, but that advocates black domination (whatever that means).
Another question: in that regard, is the NOI pretty much sui generis? Also, in light of this material, it would seem that the definition herein of black supremacy and the Wiki article on the Nation needs some expanding to include the notion of dominance. And the paragraph ending in: "By comparison, there is no powerful, far-reaching nexus of instruments under black control that have a corollary effect on whites. Nor does there appear to be a significant desire on the part of so-called 'black supremacists' to have one" as well needs an addition which cites notable exceptions to this general rule. deeceevoice 13:07, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Yes, I realized that when I went back and read the piece again (because of the reference to "Message to the Black Man" before I clicked "save page" and, I thought deleted that sentence (along with a question which I did delete). But something else comes to mind upon reading this again: this "humanly built planet" -- is that literally "human," or are these the "aliens" to whom someone (you?) referred earlier? It's not clear to me. deeceevoice 16:39, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Certainly not! Land seizures in Zimbabwe are part of a policy of land reform and are not "black supremacy" in operation. From the bad old days when the nation was called Rhodesia, whites controlled the majority of the land, and the most lucrative land. When virtually any nation struggles to reorganize its economy and mete out some degree of economic justice after a prolonged period of colonialism and usurpation of the land by a few/an oligarchy, the issue of land reform comes to the fore. It must, because, particularly in the third world, land is the basis of all wealth; it is the engine that sustains families, as well as national economies. As tragic, catastrophic and seemingly unjust as land reform can be for the few families of privilege stripped of their holdings by the new order, the status quo is far more tragic, far more unjust. If the ruling class is based on color privilege, on white supremacy -- as it was in Zimbabwe, as it was in South Africa -- then the policies of the new order that seek to topple the old regime and restore some semblance of equanimity to land (and power) distribution, to the superficial or ignorant observer, can take on the appearance of a reverse kind of supremacy, of black supremacy -- particularly when accompanied by race-based resentment/animus on the part of the colonized. The fact is land reform in Zimbabwe is no more black supremacist than was, say, "land reform" in post-revolutionary France, when the peasants and former serfs took possession of old estates and refused to ante up.
The issue of land reform isn't all you misunderstand, apparently. My comments spoke to the somewhat limited definition of "black supremacy" as a belief in the superiority of blacks. My comment was that the definition should be expanded to include a belief, among some black supremacists, in black dominance -- nothing more. And black power is most certainly not the same as black supremacy! deeceevoice 16:28, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I'm half-asleep, reworking the section explaining black supremacy, and when the edit takes, I see this great image. I'm awake. Thanks, Pharlap. deeceevoice 12:10, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)
HI DC, as per your recent reversion of the changes I made, I must admit I am quite baffled. You posted here two ~20yr old scientific studies on melanin in animals but I fail to see how any of this relates to black supremacy or even to the so called melanin theory. There is no existing information on any connection between Vertiligo an black supremacy [3] and it therefore is what is called on wikipedia "original research" which is not permitted. Also I'm rather disappointed that you took my inclusion of the statement "in the early 1970's led to a bizarre chapter in the history of the black supremacy movment which involved pseudoscientific..." and somehow twisted it into "black supremacy IS bizarre" when I said no such thing. I was merely referring to the PERIOD in its history where the supremacists used the incorrect idea that melanin is a superconductor to bolster claims of superiority. That's very bizarre thing, don't you think? Also you have not provided any refrence or source for the incorrect scientific claims you put back into the page. (again, with the "melanin is a replacement for inorganic semiconductors" mention being the most outrageously incorrect) I must insist that they remain out of the article until sources are noted. Then, I'd be happy to include them, but as it is now, I see nothing supporing this view. Cheers.-- Deglr6328 17:43, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I think parts of Deeceevoice melanin essay can still be used in this article, since it is a prime example of black supremacist thought: Whites are all defective albino mutants, therefor whiteness is a horrible disease and therefor white people suffer collectively from all kind of disorders, like uncontrollable aggressive behavior, limited intellectual capacities, deafness, vitiligo (which, by the way, affects all races and both sexes equally, according to the National Institutes of Health) and all other kinds of nerve degeneration, and will therefor never evolve intellectually, physically or spiritually past the level of a sick dog or cat. Blacks, on the other side, are the super(conductor)humans, and, because of their built in supreme melanin based electrical and neural skin-to-brain network, which would even emit flashs of light when switched on, they are the supreme humans with superior intellectual, physical and spiritual capacities ... indeed bizarre ... Pharlap 00:09, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)
More info:This is from the University of Queensland website I provided earlier. I'm still looking for the specific reference, but here's one very similar. The introductory paragraph states:
Our main materials of interest are Melanins, and synthetic conducting polymers such as MEH-PPV. Currently, our application focus is 4th generation photovoltaics ... although various forms of biocompatible sensor may make an appearance in the very near future. A growing area of biophysical interest is the spectroscopic signature of Melanin pigment contained within cancerous melanoma. Here are brief descriptions of our main research projects....
Conducting Molecular Crystals (collaboration with NSW Physics) Over the past few years there has been an explosion of interest in the field of "plastic [or organic] electronics". These are semiconducting and conducting organic polymers and molecular crystals, which one day may replace conventional inorganic materials such as silicon and gallium arsenside in high technology devices. [emphasis added]
Note: Gallium arsenide films and silicon are used in microchips -- as are melanin films. Looking less and less like crackpot science, eh? And, no. The content I've offered cannot be described as "original research." I'm not the one in the lab probing the possible uses of melanin. Melanin Theory is what it is. And the bona fide scientific properties of melanin are what they are. Those who subscribe to Melanin Theory have been following the field -- just as they have known about the discovery of melanin as a semiconductor for more than 30 years. Further, the 2000 Nobel Prize for Chemistry fueled even more interest in the theory. There's a distinct connection. And as I said earlier, if I'm reading an article on Melanin Theory, I'd want to know what the hell is behind it. The explanation of the properties of melanin provides that information. deeceevoice 07:45, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Melanin and quantum chemistry:
Quantum chemistry of melanin semiconductors - supervisors: Ross McKenzie and Paul Meredith
The melanins are a unique class of biopolymer found throughout nature [1]. They are based upon heteropolymers of indolequinones and indolequinone carboxylic acids. In humans, they act mainly as pigments and photoprotectants. In recent years, these materials have also been found in the inner ear and brain stem. No one really knows why they are there, or how they function. A common theory is that the biopolymers act as charge transport mediators. What is clear, is that the melanins are the only know[n] biopolymeric solid-state semiconductors. They are also UV/Vis broad band absorbers - the property at the heart of their pigmentary and photoprotectant functions. [emphasis added]
The electronic structure of these materials is of great interest to medical and biophysical researchers alike. The pi-electron Huckel method is one of the simplest ways to calculate the electronic band structure for organic molecular crystals. This has been done for a perfect crystal of 5-6 indolequinone [2], which is one of the most abundant constituents of eumelanin (the most common form of the biopolymer, and the major component of human skin pigment). This project will extend these calculations to the class of melanin semiconductors that will be used in electronic devices at UQ and will also consider the effect of disorder on semiconducting properties. In so doing, it is hoped that we will gain insight into: electron transport mechanisms in these disordered heteropolymer semiconductor; possible routes to achieve "tuning" of electrical properties; the dependence of conductivity on molecular weight, monomer ratio, and other characteristic chemical properties. These findings will be integrated with experimental observations to build more complete knowledge of these exotic, and potentially useful biopolymers.
And about the Proctor website:And, Deglr, I followed your link to the Proctor site. Curiously, I don't see anything "loony" or "preposterous" about what I skimmed only briefly. I skimmed it because it simply seems to repeat the same, basic info on the link between melanin and deafness in mammals -- or, cats, at least -- that the London Royal National Institute for the Deaf and Dr. George Strain did. If it's not "loony" or "preposterous" when they address the phenomenon of melanin-related deafness, then it's not preposterous on the Proctor site. He also, interestingly, provides a link to the 1970s research that is the genesis of Melanin Theory, "Amorphous Semiconductor Switching in Melanins," as it appeared in Science magazine. (Another "loony," "preposterous" publication?) :-p deeceevoice 08:08, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Well, darlin', you dug it up; you can read it! My first reaction to that information, though, is that it doesn't seem outrageous at all. Melanin clearly does mediate energy conduction and transduction, and sound is a form of energy. But since science isn't my chosen field, I'd have to decode "electron-phonon coupling" before I could say anything more. I perceive a fundamental difference between you and me. I keep an open mind and investigate to inquire, rather than to automatically debunk. Inquiry is the essence of science, the essence of learning. I have other things to do, so I didn't read the Proctor site thoroughly. But the sections that caught my eye make perfect sense, particularly in light of the other findings that support the information he presents to which I've already alluded. Additionally, I have to say that I briefly googled "melanin conduction deafness," and the three words do seem to appear frequently in the same articles. I haven't time to search through the sites; but, hey, sounds intriguing/interesting to me. deeceevoice 08:38, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)
There's a simple fix to your objection, deglr: delete the specific reference to microchips, and the statement is absolutely sound. deeceevoice 10:46, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I'm up working on a project, but I'm remembering a comment by someone that melanin's conductivity is too low to be useful in electronics devices. But I recalled reading something somewhere about "doped melanin." I googled it. I turned up:
"Semiconductors in the human body?" from our Solid State Physics Correspondent
"...Now at least one biological material has been shown to have a strikingly large conductivity when correctly excited. McGinness, Corry and Proctor, of the University of Texas Cancer Center, Houston, report in Science (183, 853; 1974) that melanins can be made to 'switch' from a poorly conducting to a highly conducting state at fairly low electric fields (say from 10K ohm- cm to 100 ohm-cm at a field of 300 V cm-1). This remarkable phenomenon occurs both in melanin made synthetically from tyrosine and in that extracted from a human melanoma. The large conduction is not destructive in any way and is reversible;. According to some tests, conduction seems to be electronic rather than ionic...."
And then a lengthy examination of different types of melanin and their properties which states, in part:
I determined last night that much of what I've presented here should go in melanin, which is why this a.m. I put a note on that article's discussion page directing them to this discussion thread -- in the hopes that persons who've contributed to that article, who are more familiar with the field of plastic (organic) electronics, will take it further. (When I first came to the article on melanin, it said nothing about high-tech applications or biotech research.) I've been meaning to get back to this article, but I don't have the time right now (or the patience). When I do, I'll reinsert/insert some appropriate, pared-down language briefly referring to the physical properties of melanin that I believe are relevant to Melanin Theory and refer readers to melanin. In presenting much of what appears here in the talk section re ongoing melanin research, I was simply providing information in response to the debate about research applications, melanin's physical properties and its connection with deafness and Parkinson's -- unless someone has done/does it first, to my satisfaction. Much of it is not something I have any intention of inserting into the article. deeceevoice 18:22, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)
One more thing, Deglr, re "civil rights era grandmas": in the future, when we have discussions/debates in the future, let's stick to the subject at hand and leave the personal remarks out of it. deeceevoice 06:33, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
This reads like an excuse for your childishness. The corollary of white supremacy -- which is widespread -- is the notion of black inferiority, and it is pervasive -- insidiously so -- (as Wareware has demonstrated repeatedly and quite admirably). That whites and other nonblacks would be accustomed to such a notion is not surprising -- nor is it racist to state such. By the way, subtlety (if you hadn't noticed) is generally not something for which I generally strive. :-p Besides, when stating the obvious, IMO, it would be silly/a wasted exercise. deeceevoice 10:33, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Never said what things"? Never mind. It's not important, because I never insinuated you were "racist." Insinuation isn't exactly my style, either. :-p If it's something you inferred from what I wrote, then there was a misunderstanding. For all I know, you could be, but as a matter of fact, the only person I know for a fact is racist in this discussion is Wareware -- because of his repeated use of racial slurs. deeceevoice 21:28, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Aw, get over it, Pharlap! What? And I suppose you haven't noticed all the racist crap around here? I suppose we should all ignore it and pretend everything's just hunky-dory, eh? I see openly addressing the race bias on Wiki as being constructive. Besides, what I have to say about Wiki on my personal page has nothing to do with this discussion -- speaking of "spend[ing] our energies on more constructive discussions." And speaking of this discussion, would you care to explain to me why someone like Wareware continues to spew racial slurs with complete impunity? Why people like you see fit to criticize me for calling attention to a very real problem, yet you have absolutely nothing to say in the way of reproval or criticism about or to a Wiki member who uses words like "ape," "savage" and "jungle" when referring to a black person? And you think when you criticize me you have some kind of credibility? Hypocrites like you are really laughable. Credibility? You got none. Criticism from someone like you reads like glowing praise. Thanks for the compliment. *x* deeceevoice 10:08, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
As it stands right now, the melanin theory bit contains some copyvios. I don't know who added them (nor do I particualrly care) but please be careful of direct text copying. All that's needed are some phrasing tweaks to make everything ok. I'll leave it to others... -- Deglr6328 04:14, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)