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I see blacks from almost everywhere mentioned but India! To leave that large group of black people out does a dissiervice to the article. If the US had thei way, blacks would only be those from the US and 'certain' parts of Africa. You know, the parts that did anything noteworthy or who came into contact and mixed with whites.-- 71.235.81.39 02:16, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
Indians are considered Asian (specifically South-Asian), not black. There may be blacks living in India, or even Indians with skintones resembling black, but for the most part, Indians are not black. --
74.12.81.178
Why is this article titled black people, when wikipedia redirects a search of "white people" to the article "Caucasian People." I believe that this article should be renamed to "African American People," or "Caucasian People" should be renamed to "White People"
—The preceding
unsigned comment was added by
Editingisbad (
talk •
contribs)
20:09, 14 March 2007 (UTC).
Sure, but that would pose as a problem for Jamaicans, Afro-Caribs, Afr-Brazilians, Haitians and everyone else not African AMERICAN.
My thoughts and suggestions are as follows; I question the whole subject as not having WPOV or NPOV in encyclopedic terms. I conclude that the subject "Black people" is too broad a term, and is actually only an observation, and a subjective one at that, made by some people to describe or to categorize as they see fit. It can never be NPOV, not as it is now. Yet, if the subject/title would be "Blacks in the Americas" or some form thereof and which can include topics such as;
And many more topics/subtopics that have to do with valuable contributions/inventions, influence, and oppression that Black People are known for, and have persevered under great injustices, and have a rich and diverse history. We can have other pages connecting to any page(s) that have any of these and other titles listed here. Perhaps disambiguation pages too? This is just my suggestion (and not in any particular order as expressed here) that I feel may alleviate the constant bickering and do away with the many different points of view, edit wars, heated discussions, and have a better WPOV, etc. Just a thought.
I know this is long, and it may be encyclopedic in some areas on this page. Or even ignored altogether. You may think I'm a lunatic, and you may be correct. You may think I'm ignorant of the content that already exists, which can be absolutely correct. But I think this project as it is is not going to work on this site as note worthy, encyclopedic, etc. Heck, it can be put with Genetics, Race, Human Beings, or whatever. Please, just not " Black people" as this will always be more controversial than any of the topics I've suggested, and possibly all can be included an it's own article as I suggested in the beginning of this diatribe Blacks in the Americas just not Black people! forgive me, I think this article, as it is, is embarrassing, stupid, too controversial and can only have individual POV in this context. --Jeeny 20:37, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
why is this guy quoted in the article. He has been accused of being a racist, why does his opinion count. Muntuwandi 21:59, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
Scientific racism has had a huge influence on how black identity has historically been constructed and what it has come to mean and how black people are treated in everyday life, so even if Rushton were a racist (which I don’t think he is) the reader to have a complete understanding of the topic needs to know more than just all the Afrocentric and black views quoted in the article (most black kids hear that on the street growing up, they don't come to encyclopedia's to hear that), but the contemporary “racist” perspective on who is considered black, and from that perspective Rushton is as influential and scholarly as they come. The only reason he is considered racist is because he’s assembled serious data showing black men have larger penises than white men who have larger penises than oriental men. But his data comes from the World Health Organization and is is part of a serious sociobiological theory and Rushton has been defended by very eminent scientists.
Harvard biologist E.O. Wilson (one of the two cofounders of r/K selection theory) states "I think Phil is an honest and capable researcher ... The basic reasoning by Rushton is solid evolutionary reasoning; that is it's logically sound. If he had seen some apparent geographic variation for a non-human species-a species of sparrow or sparrow hawk, for example-no one would have batted an eye." [1]
Rushton is an extremely credible source because he’s spent the last 3 decades studying black people, writing articles about black people in peer reviewed academic journals, and teaching a course on race. I think he’s reliable enough to give a 1 sentence definition of who a black person is. He is a professor of psychology at the University of Western Ontario, London, Ontario, Canada, holds two doctorates from the University of London (Ph.D. and D.Sc) and is a Fellow of the John Simon Guggenheim Foundation, the American Association for the Advancement of Science, and the American, British, and Canadian Psychological Associations. He is also a member of the Behavior Genetics Association, the Human Behavior and Evolution Society, and the Society for Neuroscience. Rushton has published six books and nearly 200 articles. In 1992 the Institute for Scientific Information ranked him the 22nd most published psychologist and the 11th most cited. Professor Rushton is listed in Who's Who in Science and Technology, Who's Who in International Authors, and Who's Who in Canada. Iseebias
some people can be racist all their lives. In fact old habbits die hard.
Muntuwandi
23:19, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
A section about Arabs is fine. It is infact quite relevant if it is about Yemenis etc (some of whom are black). However, as the sub-section is currently about how Arabs view blacks, spiced with ignorancies such as "hybridized blacks", I have removed it. Quote Rushton, but only if it is relevant. Not merely as another attemt to push fringe POV. -- Ezeu 00:47, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
i can almost hear the screaming and shouting Muntuwandi 04:17, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Muntuwandi, but i will do one better, i am picture them killing one another in a ring or something. 2 b fair to both. I agree with Christmas girl (on one point), nobody in their right historical mind would refer to themseleves as black, no people in history have done this. They have been called Black, they either accept it or reject it. No one in Africa ever said "we is blacks" the said "we are Nubian" We are Nigerian or Wolof or Fulani. However Afro centric r not to blame for race lumping. Afrocentrics have done a lot for reforming African identity many dont use the word black. see Kimani Nehusi and Karenga. I do find it amazing however that anyone from anywhere from any identify can take all kinds of shots at the poor Negro. I challenge anyone 2 try that on jew, u cant even breath wrong if you edit there. Their is no group more oppressed than Africans i tell u that. Only 2 race color identify, everyone else has rejected these color labels save the Negro, sorry the Black.-- Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ 14:41, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
The decision to call black was one of necessity to distinguish between the two. Wherever the white man went, he was also given a name. In east africa it was muzungu. the use of the term black was not forced upon, it was more common sense. But at the time there were no negative stereotypes to attach to the word. Muntuwandi 14:52, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Some examples of Greek writings on excessive (in their view) paleness:
Polemon, Physiognomica, 8.11-1:
Blond [CANQH=] and whitish [U(PO/LEUKOS] hair, like that of Scythians signifies stupidity [SKAIO/THTA], evilness [KAKO/THTA], savagery [A)GRIO/THTA]
Pseudo-Aristotle, Physiognomica:
The people whose eyes are light blue-grey [GLAUKOI/] or white [LEUKOI/] are cowards [DEILOI/]
Paul B 15:21, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Actually the Arab slave traders said "we are neither unbaked dough or bunt crust but cooked just right". Christmasgirl
But does anyone ever wonder why first White Americans decided to go all the way to Africa to get their slaves when they had a huge population of Native Americans they could have enslaved? Well there were lots of reasons of course, but one of the biggest according to the history books was the negative attitude the Europeans had towards the color black. They defined black as evil, wicked, soiled, deeply stained by dirt. They couldn't bring themselves to enslaves the people they saw as red as red was considered a pretty color, hence they went all the way to what they called black Africa to get slaves over and over again wasting huge amounts of time and effort when they could have just used Native Americans as slaves who were already in the Americas anyway. That's how much they hated the color black
Christmasgirl
Also, Native Americans used slaves long before any "white" man came to America. The slaves would be captives of warring tribes, among other reasons. Another irony is that when Europeans first used Africans to work their new lands, they were considered indentured servants, and could be freed after a certain amount of time. But then the racial rationalization took over them (greed, ignorance, etc), and they were afraid that Africans would war with them, and didn't want them to mix with the so-called superior whites. They took advantage of taking them from their homelands, and different parts of Africa so the slaves could not communicate with each other as lauguage varied among African tribes. They feared escape plans being made and other such fears the white man had.
It's so complicated the more I type, leads me into another thought and facts are of a very complex nature of the first slaves (not allowing them to read, threats, beatings, etc). Eventually though, yes, whites did justify their slavery of African blacks because they thought them inferior, because of religion reasons (were thought of savages, etc), also their perceived notions that Africans where next to apes, therefore, not true humans (so they could "morally" use slaves like animals). All nations used slavery, from the beginning of times, but nothing like the History of African slavery in the US. Where actual LAWS where made to keep them as less than human for thier own greed,etc. Ugly, ugly ugly. :/ Jeeny 18:03, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Of course other Africans were also involved in selling Africans as slaves. Ugly, ugly ugly. Lukas19 15:26, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
In 1620 ,when the european pilgrims first landed on plymouth rock of the 102 people, 50 died during the first winter from various diseases. A year earlier in 1619 the first africans had landed in virginia. They were not slaves but indentured servants. There must have been great amazement that the africans were not easily succumbing to the various diseases of the new world. millenia of battling malaria and other jungle illnesses made the africans more resistant. They were already good farmers, fishermen and hunters [2]. They knew how to navigate themselves through difficult jungle terrains as many escaped to form communities in the bush eg columbian communtity. because of the skills of the africans, the europeans must have sensed a great economic opportunity. Muntuwandi 22:54, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
71.110.94.89 21:26, 17 July 2007 (UTC)Seek the Truth Africans, Black, Negro African American it doesn't matter! What matters is the truth. The white man has exploied everything and everyone. I would hate to see one form of racisim replaced with another!(Black People holding the power hand) If you believe in nature - nature has a way of cleaning its self. The old reap what you sow. We are now in the 400th year of Black Oppression although things are better now than 400 years ago there is still work to be done. Look at the horizon for our time is near.
I fully appreciate the concept of free speech, but I do not understand why we have to contend with unnecessarily offensive language that is clearly not aimed at improving the article. Even talk pages can be vandalised. Muntuwandi 15:59, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
see Removing uncivil comments- If comments are offensive, wikipedia policy allows for them to be removed, even on talk pages. Muntuwandi 16:14, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
"Although the Koran stated that there were no superior and inferior races and therefore no bar to racial intermarriage, in practice this pious doctrine was disregarded. Arabs did not want their daughters to marry even hybridized blacks. The Ethiopians were the most respected, the "Zanj" (Bantu and other Negroid tribes from East and West Africa south of the Sahara) the least respected, with Nubians occupying an intermediate position"
The Rushton quote is definitely wrong. Africa is huge. It is therefore for exemple very ulikely that Arabs in Egypt would have known about the situation in West Africa. Or that they would have been able to differentiate Ethiopians from Western Africans(In order to avoid intermarriage, etc.). I am from Western Africa. And we had different waves of Arab immigration. And some deffinitely mixed with the local population(Spread of Islam, etc.). Besides, (Christian&Jewish) Ethiopians are often considered as absoulte ennemies of the Arab World. Just ask the Somalis, who are very close to the Jemenites and who can definitely be considered as part of the Arab World, even though they look black.(Afro-German)( 87.176.254.80 17:26, 13 March 2007 (UTC)).
Just go to Egypt, Algeria, Marocco and so on. It is obvious that a sensitive part of the population has African descent. But if you have like 10-20% looking very "African"-even in remote places-, then it is likely that the rest of the population has also a very high likelyhood to have some African ancestrors.( 87.176.254.80 17:42, 13 March 2007 (UTC)).
It just has nothing to do with Skin Colour. Regionally, in Sudan and elsewhere, Arabs and Black Africans look extremely similar. But they clearly differentiate themselves by culture and so on. So Arab slave trade is true. But if somebody is very Black but is extremely well integrated in the Arab society, he might very well marry whoever he wants. => Rushton speaks of "colour" where the key to understanding the problems is culture. ( 87.176.254.80 17:54, 13 March 2007 (UTC)).
Americans have no knowledge about the cultural complexity outside their country.
Some of them might even go to Iraq and think the people there will speak Spanish, beaucause they look "Brown" and therefore must belong to the "Brown race" like the Mexicans, etc.
And because Americans lack this cultural knowledge, they tend to identify themselves by very primitive criterias like "Skin colour", etc.
Just look at the many awfull wars there were in Europe, and you will understand that it is totally crazy to put whites, blacks or others in one group just beacuse they somewhat look similar.
Now other countries, cultures, etc. also have many problems. But as a whole, this article does only make sense in the US.( 87.176.254.80 17:35, 13 March 2007 (UTC)).
If an editor feels a tag is valid, unless it is really stupid u shouldnt take it off. Allow the debate to back up the tag and then determine if the tag is valid. As i have asked the editor, is the tag the correct tag. Tags dont hurt anyone. the minute we start deleting tags we become dictators, tags should not be deleted and those posting the tags should also be quick to explain the tag, as i have asked the editor to do. Until it is resolved the tag stays. I was the one that added avoid the pan-Americanism, i have an issue with the term when it is exported to mean what Americans say it means. Is that what the issue is? I dont think the article is unbalanced, but allow the editor time to explain his views. there is no admin, no collection no matter how large that can out weigh the rules. wiki shouldnt b mob rule. allow the debate-- Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ 01:46, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
why nominate this article for deletion when it is pretty obvious the deletion will not go through. Muntuwandi 17:40, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
well its up to the readers i actually think i did a good thing. well if the page isnt gonna be deleted then why worry? i think it is a strange page anyway. and i think it is wrong to point out black and white people. and i think the black people section is full of wrong facts and alot of racist facts.the msot strange thing is the massaj man,i mean does he really represent the black community?-- Matrix17 18:07, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
There is no global black community. One of the topics that has been discussed is diversity among "black people". There is much cultural, genetic and lingustic diversity within Africa, in fact over 1800 languages are spoken. Outside of Africa blacks live all over the americas speaking dutch, french, spanish, portuguese, english and other creolized lingos. The idea of a black community is US centric. we should speedily undelete the article as it will just be waste of energy going through the debate. Muntuwandi 18:17, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
make you say on the deletion page entry instead of here... their are already one saying it should strongly be deleted. so i am not in charge here. i still think i agree with the person writing that it is wrong to have this page.and we are all tired of this editing wars all the time-- Matrix17 19:33, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
the dark skinned people of africa and their descendents numbering almost 1 billion, too many to form one single monolithic community(eg francophone and anglophone africa). but there are some shared characteristics.
1 chiefly darker skin and other phenotypes, with many exceptions.
2 A shared recent history.
3 Outside of africa one is likely to face discrimination from being dark skinned.
4 Even though cultures are different certain cultural elements are ubiquitous throughout africa and the new world(eg
cornrows).
Blacks are not one community in the sense that one person can be representative of all, but at the moment they are enough of a group to be easily recognized and identified as a group. Muntuwandi 19:38, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
make your vote on the deletion tag on the front page on Keep or Delete. Their is already one saying strongly deletion on this page because of the constant editing wars and strong opinions for deletion and not deletion here,their is no use to fight over it here. make your voice heard in the issue. i think this is a strongly deletion page to,i have also now voted for strong deletion due to the various racist toughts on this article like the vanuatu man ,whats that?>?..-- Matrix17 19:41, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
I had mentioned earlier that when society becomes colorblind, I would be the first to nominate this article for deletion, but we are still a long way from that. Yes there have been some strenouos edit wars. My opinion is this is because of the desire to incorporate complicated, extreme or exotic views. I very much favor scientific views over sociological opinion because science is more objective. So and so's opinion always has a motive. Whether it be cheikh anta diop or rushton. A scientific study whose results can be reproduced regardless of who is doing the study is more respectable. I earlier proposed restructuring and simplifying article because in its current state I can only make sense of the gallery. I will make a vote but i think it is a waste time because deleting this article will mean deleting all articles on ethnicity, white people, asian people etc. which i do not see happening. Muntuwandi 20:01, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
Make your vocie heard on the deletion tag to the entry instead.i dont agree with you at all just want to point that out.-- Matrix17 20:04, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
The AfD nomination was (permaturely) closed after a mere 4½ hours. I sent it to Deletion Review Wikipedia:Deletion_review#Black_people. Editors may care to comment. Jd2718 01:32, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
1st - Why is there an article titled 'Black People'?? That is not very politically correct. 2nd - Hugo Chavez is not considered balck by anybody. Randomfrenchie 02:08, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Where is your comment regarding the existence of the "White People" article? I don't see your comments in that article's discussion page. Where is the request to delete the "White (People)" article in any event? -- 208.254.174.148 02:16, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Right here, where White people was closed with Speedy Keep. Along with similar articles for Asians, etc. etc. ⇒ SWATJester On Belay! 06:30, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
1st - There is the term Negroid to refer to all black people but the term African American would be politically incorrect due to those that are NOT from America that are black.
If an old hypothesis has now been discarded, is it necessary to mention it. For example carlton coon categorized the races. He believed that that the black race and white race evolved seperately over a million years. These theories have now been disproved. Is it thus necessary to mention these archaic theories. I think they just add to the spirit of animosity. I suggest we replace all old hypothesis with what mainstream science says. the old stuff can be placed in a more appropriate article or simply remain on the author's page. Muntuwandi 05:10, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
If they are still important they can remain on the page of the author of those theories or a "history of race" page. For example when talking about the earth and globalization we no longer mention that people once thought the earth was flat. Muntuwandi 12:08, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
This article is making out that ALL Indians are black. These are contentious claims when Indo-Aryans are usually classed as Caucasoid and are racially and even genetically more similar to Europeans. This Italian opera Singer Andrea Bocelli http://image.listen.com/img/356x237/0/2/4/4/504420_356x237.jpg Looks like a Punjabi. Should he be included in the `Marginal Blacks' Image gallery as well? He would be classed as white by most census definitions. Please write Tamil, Dravidian or South Indian School girls instead of contending that all South Asians are black, or better still, delete their images alltogether. Many Saudis look more Negroid than Indians, and they'd be classed as white in the US census. `Brown' is usually the preferred colour metaphor for Indians..—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 58.169.34.17 ( talk • contribs) 11:12, 25 March 2007 (UTC).
Most Punjabis are actually Indo-Aryans, resembling a Mediterranean Type like Nahwaz Sharif pictured here http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1030000/images/_1032134_nawaz150.jpg Like I said about Andrea Bocelli, he looks pretty brown to me and that's why I personally do not consider ALL Southern Europeans as `white' either. Off the subject, why is there a Nazi Swastika frequently appearing on the first image of this page?
I have lived in London and I came across a few Southern Italians and Greeks who looked South Asian. I have also known Italians who have experienced racism and been called `Pakis'. They are mixed race populations so it is not surprising. They cannot be classed as white! the previous comment is in support of the fallacy of Indians constituting a `race unto themselves'. There is NO standard appearance of what an Indian is supposed to `look' like.
Why not include this image of Omar Abdullah in the gallery just on the grounds that he is Indian! http://www.krav-magaindia.com/images/omarabdullah.jpg
I have to strongly disagree with this, i myself am Tamil & 1/4 chinese. My father was very dark skin and would be considered black anywhere else in the world, actually BEING and having been around tamils i can very clearly say that tha majority to almost all tamils i have seen have all had dark skin and myself have faced racism having even been called "Nigger". Since the person above me used pictures to prove indians being more closer to europeans with pictures of tamils and south indians. I feel obliged defending the notion of Tamils as to be able to be known as "blacks",
A Tamil Nadu Soccer Player http://www.hindu.com/2007/02/11/images/2007021108521701.jpg
a group of tamil nadu men http://www.foodrelief.org/gallery/albums/tamil-nadu-relief/tamil-nadu-relief-023.jpg
Tamil Nadu females http://abroadabroad.ca/wp-content/uploads/2006/04/PICT0057.jpg
A Tamil male with a caucasion/"white" female http://farm1.static.flickr.com/56/125773211_c5384b5fd7.jpg?v=0
Another group of Tamils http://www.tn.gov.in/pressrelease/archives/pr2005/pr311005/oct31b.jpg
Tamils Kids in a village in Tamil Nadu http://www.amazingindia.info/images/fullsize/village2.jpg
a Tamil Nauch (Dancing Girl) http://lcweb2.loc.gov/frd/cs/sri_lanka/lk02_02d.jpg
Tamils in australia http://www.ltteps.org/mainpages/images/2005/03/Delegation_in_Austria.jpg
Young tamil girl http://www.bnp.org.uk/images/newsarchive19/tamil+female.jpg
Singaporean musician & comedian Siva Choy http://www.starhub.net.sg/~viyo/Sivatwin150.jpg
I think i have made my point, to say that Tamils can not be considered "Black" i find unbelievable because tamils have very dark skin. Also noted the person who had pictures of fair Tamil's, it is the same case with modern day African Americans where you see a lot of fair skinned African Americans and also in Asia light skin is thought as beautiful while dark skin is considered ugly thus not having a lot of dark tamil actor's because they would come off as unpleasing to watch and as i am sure majority of the pictures the person above me put were actor's. Now if this column is to stay up, i insist that tamils at least stay in the column because i think it is rather obvious from the proof i have given that Tamils at least can be considered "Black".
I think the term "black" is used by white (ie Northern European descended) people rather indiscriminately. I know that amongst ourselves that virtually anyone who is not fair-skinned is liable to be called black. Black, as white people use it, does not simply refer to those who would be scientifically or culturally classed as Negroid, but any dark skinned person- be it Indian, Arab, Turkish, PAki, Polynesian. This might not be correct , but the average person isn;t exactly a paleoanthropologist, are they? As for the nth vs sth india arguement: it is a generalisation, yes, but it is generally true that northern indians are lighter skinned becasue of the mixture with the iranian tribes. Same deal with Italians. Northern italians are generally fairer than southerners because they northerners are mixed with germans whereas the southerners often mixed with northern africans (over the millenia)
First of all, i did not imply that Africans and Indians are the same. However this article is "Black People" rather than "Africans", almost all the Tamil people i know refer themselves as Black not because they believe they are African but because of their skin color. In many cases in columns with the subject of "black people" you can always spot an Indian or too (mistakenly if you must) put there. Whether we are genetically closer to Europeans than to Africans seems to have been debated on many times as the 'Afro centric perspective' would say. Now onto the physical features of the people i have posted, i don't really know what "looking pretty Indian" because that could mean anything. From the time i have spent with all kinds of Indians appeaence varies especially in Tamil, some features-wise look more like the one's you have posted while others i have seen have had thick lips, broad noses and afro like hair so "looking Indian" can be varied as i think the pictures i have put up have proved in fact. As you can see in picture #7 she has thick lips and a broad nose, i have to end this now because where i am at it is late and i am rather tired however like i first stated i believe we are black (based on skin color and appearance) and NOT African. Now if you want to get into genetics, people whose jobs are to find these things out have yet to come to a real conclusion whether we are closer to Europeans or Africans so I'll leave that one alone but if you want to believe you are closer to a European, more power to you.
blacks posing as tamils? i think u will find its the other way round my friend. go look at hi5 Dee.paul 16:50, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
FIRSTLY, I AM NOT A PUNJABI GUY MR `ASIAN2DURACELL' SECONDLY, MANY ANTHROPOLOGISTS HAVE CLASSED INDO-ARYANS AS HAVING MEDITERRANEAN ELEMENTS. LIKE MY IMAGE OF OMAR ABDULLAH WHICH I POSTED WHO LOOKS WHITER THAN MANY SOUTHERN EUROPEANS, WHY ARE YOU CONTENDING THAT ALL GREEKS AND ITALIANS ARE WHITE REGARDLESS OF COMPLEXION? hARDLY ANY nOTHERN EUROPEAN I KNOW WOULD THINK SO. THEY MAY BE FAIRER THAN YOU WHO IS A TAMIL, BUT NOT COMPARED TO A NORDIC. R1A1 IS A SOUTH ASIAN, WEST ASIAN AND EAST EUROPEAN DNA HAPLOGROUP WHICH DOES NOT PROLIFERATE AMONG EAST ASIANS IN LARGE NUMBERS, HENCE SOUTH ASIANS ARE NOT CLOSER TO EAST ASIANS (AS A WHOLE) GENETICALLY!
thx mister "i dont want to sign my posts". U have to understand that not JUST ur INDO ARYANS, but also the so called DRAVIDIANS are Mediterranean Caucasoid.. and so is most of India today. From Southern Europe over the MiddleEast to India, the people are so called "Meditarranean" what ever that means. Ofcourse are Italians and Greeks fairer than Tamils, and about atleast 95% of the Indian population North or South. I live in Europe, so u dont have to tell me what "Nordics" think on skin colour. Yes indeed some Nordics will call Spaniards/Italians/Portugese/Greeks as brown. But most dont. Where I live there are atleast 300'000 to 500'000 Southern Europeans mostly Sicilians. And hell they look "white" to me. Some are darker some are fairer. Its the same in India. Indians usually have "dark" skinned and "fair" skinned siblings, but that doesnt make them to be of a separate ethnicity. And Sub-SaharanAfricans are black, whether they have dark or light skin. Finally, its not me who claim to be of EastAsian ancestry, the last thing i look like is "EastAsian". But some anthropologists do think so. But that doesnt mean its true. But i guess we are closer related to EastAsians as we think, even thug we dont look like them.
Asian2duracell
22:45, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
This image of a Swedish (Nordic) and a Greek (Mediterranean) mix does not look White http://www.knowprose.com/images/Yusuf_Islam.jpg It is Cat Stevens who self identifies as mixed race on his own website and I agreee with him 110%!! He looks Pakistani, more than Nikki Bedi or Nasser Hussain do, who are both classed as mixed race `black' according to the faulty logic of this article!
Firstly, the first statement in the sentence was problematic. The statement that people who equate black with African descent have a narrow minded view is personal opinion. A lot of people argue that blacks are the only people indigenous to Africa, and any Caucasian presence is due to relatively late immigration. Africans traveled and populated the entire world, it would be extremely foolish and plain racist to assume that they couldn't of populated the northern part of their own continent. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Taharqa ( talk • contribs) 08:17, 29 March 2007 (UTC).
Under Mostafa Hefny, I added an additional statement which is relevant to the topic.
Quote:
"Although Mostafa admits the region of Africa he comes from is North of the Sahara, he claims that he is black because his ancestors were from the ancient kingdom of Nubia, now part of Egypt and Sudan. In 1997, Mostafa attempted to sue the U.S. government to get his racial identity changed.[26] Though seemingly there is a contradiction here, as Nubia was also North of the Sahara and so is most of modern day Sudan."
Mostafa could very likely be a descendant of the Ancient Egyptians or Nubians, who knows (many people in southern Egypt look like him, and they are native)? I don't see where the U.S census gets off on telling people that the original inhabitants of North Africa were 'white' (including Egypt, when even to this day they aren't all 'white', that's mainly the Northern Arab Egyptians) then try and cover their absurdism by claiming this is simply a socio-political label and not scientific classification. Africans spread across the entire world, it would be foolish to believe that they didn't settle in North Africa, which is the closest thing to them. Egypt and Race is a whole other debate, just check the wiki article for that. Taharqa 08:01, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
It’s no more racist to say Blacks are from sub-Saharan Africa than it is to say that Caucasians are from North Africa and Western Eurasia, and East Asians are from East Asia. It’s no more insulting to say Blacks did not populate Africa North of the Sahara than it is to say Caucasians didn’t populate Africa South of the Sahara or Eurasia East of the Himalayas or that East Asians didn’t populate Asia West of the Himalayas. Although most anthropologists now reject the idea of race (or at least use less loaded terminology like ethnic group, genetic cluster, or population) geneticist Neil Rich argues that humans separated by barriers that impeded gene flow (i.e. major deserts, mountain ranges, oceans) separated into races [ [4]] so if you’re going to speak of racial groups, you have to define their limits by landmarks that historically prevented them from blending into other races (otherwise how could races have emerged as relatively separate groups assuming you believe that they did). So that’s one reason why the definition of Black is frequently restricted to Sub-Saharan ancestry. The other reason is climate. As Muntuwandi has repeatedly explained, only the tropics and semi-tropics produce skin color normally described as black, so any dark skinned peoples living in North Africa would have to be the descendants of relatively recent arrivals (though how recent, and how long ago North Africa was first populated is a matter of debate). As for your claim that Africans spread around the world; this is generally regarded as an Afrocentric view, though future research and discoveries may prove Afrocentrics right. It's sometimes just a matter of semantics. For example if you define Australian Aboriginals as Black you may also define them as Africoid, in which case you can cite the recent discovery of an ancient Australian aboriginal skull in the Americas as evidence for your assertions. However those who take a genetic view do not consider Africans and Australian aboriginals as part of the same population. Iseebias 12:19, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
This map is completely misplaced. I already removed it once. By placing a map so high that links to articles that all refer to various terms in the United States - with no caption or explanation to its relevance - is not helpful. It was restored on the basis that it shows who is "legally black" in the U.S. Whatever that issue involves should be in some subsection which deals with that country. Not high up in what appears to be a general part of the article. It is very misleading in its present context.-- Zleitzen (talk) 13:33, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
I tried to put a caption under the map, but could not figure out how to do it with the new syntax being used. I tried using the old way of showing messages, but then the labels and links on the map did not show up. I think the user who wants to can figure out what the map does, anyway. P0M 01:05, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
I modified the map by making it one image including the text so that a caption would be easier to include with it. I'm not sure how it would look on other monitors or browsers with the text as part of the image now, though. I haven't uploaded it to Wiki. Thought I'd get feedback first. I can't seem to post it directly on this page, here's the link: Modified US census map
Question: Does the Census Bureau have a policy on which tabulation options data users should use when comparing data on race from Census 2000 and previous censuses?
Answer: The Census Bureau is providing different tabulation options so that users may decide which option best satisfies their needs. In addition, the Census Bureau will provide a data file, using results from the Census Quality Survey to be conducted in the summer of 2001, that will assist users in developing ways to make comparisons between Census 2000 data on race, where respondents were asked to report one or more races, and data on race from other sources that asked for only a single race.
Question: What are the race groups that federal agencies are to use to comply with the Office of Management and Budget's guidance for civil rights monitoring and enforcement?
Answer: The categories (made available in OMB Bulletin No. 00-02, "Guidance on Aggregation and Allocation of Data on Race for Use in Civil Rights Monitoring and Enforcement" [6]) to be used are:
(end, there is more at the link above)
I had an editing war when I first saw this section a month of so ago, because of the example of Hefny (1997), and no mention of him since! Not in any references that I can find. Another reason I was against it is because it's about the frickin US Census! Which is, supposedly, only to help "create equitable legislative representation" and to monitor civil rights and enforcement for protection. Not make people choose between Black and White, Blue or purple.
While, I am not sure about immigrants entering the US at this time, I DO KNOW one can choose one's race that one identifies with, ALSO one may choose NOT to check ANY one of them. It is NOT required. Again, I don't know about immigrants entering the US, but those who are in the US at the time of a Census. Another ALSO, not everyone fills out those dang things either. It's not a law to comply (It is illegal to be in the country illegally, lol. but that's a whole other story). I guess one can call it a civic duty (census) so that the people are fairly represented in the US, but it's not a law but it is strongly encouraged that everyone participate. Jeeny 19:27, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
I believe hefny is a one off case, its an interesting story but it ends there. my preference would be to remove hefny because i do not see his situation affecting many people. yes they are many afro-arabs in saudi arabia and yemen but they are not complaining. Muntuwandi 19:33, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for clarifying the U.S. census. Reading the census information provided, and the background sources, there is no mention of Europe, nor "Sub-Saharan" anywhere. It seems to me that the map is actually original research, is it not? An editor has taken it upon themselves to establish white=Europe and North Africa, and Black=Sub Saharan Africa in relation to the census, when no such definitions were offered. -- Zleitzen (talk) 07:08, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
I think this heading is misleading because I don't think there is any active debate or controversy going on regarding the term. It is recognized by the UN as a Subregion. the assertion that it is racist really doesn't have much support because very often it is black africans themselves who want to be distinguished from their northern comrades page 20. What i think can be racist is the context within which the term is used, not the term itself( eg even the term "black" can be racist depending on the context). I do not see any difference between the cultural distinctions between east africa and west africa. Therefore I propose to change the heading to sub-saharan africa, and the notion that it is racist should be considered WP:FRINGE.
Secondly, how relevant is the case of Mostafa hefny. for example Naomi Campbell can make the sam e claim, stating that she is british and therefore by US law she is white. but that does not hold water because her ancestors are eventually from sub-saharan africa via jamaica. The same can be said for hefny. Somewhere in his recent family history his ancestors came from the same place all dark skinned people came from which is Sub-saharan africa. Muntuwandi 16:59, 30 March 2007 (UTC) Muntuwandi 16:59, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
I have made an attempt to make the section less US centric and more about SSA itself. but i still question how relevant hefny is because he seems to be the only person going through such a dilemma Muntuwandi 19:16, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
It feels fine to know that
This is really gratifying. -- Ezeu 01:49, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
This article is written from the point of view that "Black" is a biological category. Biology, genetics, and blood lines underly most of the writing. There is not a single section to point to. Jd2718 02:29, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
a few controversial changes. I think old theories are obsolete and should be removed. Muntuwandi 04:33, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
there's no evidence of an internal African identification based on skin color; .... This article insistently puts forward a timeless notion of Blackness based on ancestry and biology....
If there is POV in the article we should pinpoint the exact areas for discussion rather than it just being a general POV. Muntuwandi 13:37, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
this article is controversial but if they are disputes they should be highlighted directly ie sentence, paragraph. the concept of some abstract pov somewhere does not communicate the problem. until this is done there is no need to have the npov tag
Muntuwandi
12:27, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
the results of lewontins study have been confirmed by DNA because in his study he used blood groups. This was before DNA technology was available. So these are not his personal views, though I am sure he has them, they are results of his experiments.
Clustering- there is still much debate over clustering, some argue that it is the correlation of the DNA not the actual variation. but once again the debate at the moment still favors that clustering of traits is still insignificant to differentiate any race. This because human race is descended from one african couple who lived 150, 000. In evolutionary terms this time is insignificant considering the millions of years that hominids have been in existence.
Blood groups though simplistic is still a valid argument. The fact that two people from the same race, such as two whites, who are have different blood ABO blood types can be incompatible for a blood transfusion and two people from a different race with the same blood type are compatible such as a black and white is an example of human variation. One may make an argument in regards to rare blood types that ethnic specific, but the keyword is rare. Muntuwandi 00:17, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
I find it ironic that shortly after Ezeu praised the great shape the article was in, Muntawandi felt the need to make an enormous revision removing a large number of references on the grounds that old theories are obsolete (as if there were a correct definition of what it means to be Black). If your goal was to please the guy who is complaining this article is POV, it didn't work, as you are currently in an edit war with him. The article as it stands now simply duplicates information already available in articles on race, the single origin hypothesis, and human skin color, and the African diasporas, and merges them together into one incoherent hybrid. Muntawandi I understand your desire to turn this into a science article, but the term Black is seldom used in the scientific community so science shouldn't be the dominant theme of the article, especially when that information is already duplicated in other articles. I think we should focus much more on Black as a label, that way this article can offer something unique instead of just duplicating other articles. Science should only be mentioned to describe how scientists have labeled people Black, but if this article is to be anything other than a duplicate of existing articles, it needs to focus on various perspectives of Black identity Iseebias 14:27, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
But Iseebias you say the article was better April 1st, but you were in the forefront advocating the article to be deleted. this is contradictory Muntuwandi 18:44, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
It is not my wish to make this article a science article but modern science is relevant to the article. As mentioned in the article old myths like the hamitic curse say that blacks were cursed and burnt by god hence black skin. In this day and age there are still people who believe such myths. But science says the opposite, that black skin was actually a blessing necessary to survive. There are other myths around that perpetuate notions of racial superiority and inferiority. thus we see their effects in the color stratifications of many countries. once again science shows there is no fundamental biological difference between populations and that in fact the human race is just one extended family. Even though to scientist this is new, these concepts were known to most religions. The
Abrahamic Religions all indicate the human race is descended from Adam and Eve, science just seems to confirm that we are all descended from one couple.
One of the problems that i see in the article is extensive use of quotes from people who are not known or who may not be credible. It is better to have explanations rather than quotes. Because the quotes are an opinion of one person. If they are not backed by facts, surveys or experiments then they may not even be true. Muntuwandi 20:29, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Mostafa Hefny is relevant because his situation illustrates the effect that racism distorts a person's own racial view point. Someone else said that most afro-arabs in the middle east aren't complaining about being classified as white, but the fact is, 1. they are not white. 2. they aren't in the US and Hefny was put in a context regarding racial perceptions in the US 3. they arent' complaining because of the social-economic benefits they get for being classified as white. Hefny's case is important becuase it gets to the heart of where and why Egypt is considered part of the "white" racial category when in fact much of Egypt is obviously indistinguishably black! -- 68.60.55.162 04:07, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
Thank god for reference #56. This refreshing response is effective in dealing with the most annoying aspect of Eurocentric bias. It is so silly to call north-east Africans caucasoid when we can plainly see that they are black african negroid people. The "Caucasoid" type has gradually increased in scale when scientists continue to unscientificly make associations between North African blacks and Europeans. The most interseting aspect is how bi-racial people of a mixture of unquestioned negroid and caucasoid parentage will routinely be classified as "Caucasoid" with negroid admixture. Physically, the middle ground is perceived in certain social situations (Egyptian and Sudanese hood) as "Caucasoid" and in others (American hood) as "negroid". In the end, the association is purely political and black people (whether called Caucasoid or not) experience the same prejudice in Sudan, Egypt, and India as they experience in the U.S.A. That alone should remind us of the irrelevance of classifying a Sudanese or Egyptian black person as a "Caucasian". Same with the Ancient Egyptians. The amount of "white" genes will not cause people to look at Tim Duncan, Halle Berry, or Barack Obama as more Caucasoid than Akhenaten, Queen Tiye, or Tutmoses... yet the Egyptians will be forced into being Caucasoid! . -- 68.60.55.162 14:18, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
There are several inaccuracies in the version April 1st to start with this table Post World War II". 2005. August 28, 2006.</ref> does not site who the anthropologists that are surveyed, neither does it give their rationale, it looks like just their opinion. It thus does not seem to qualify as a reputable source.
There are even some inaccuracies for instance "reverse one drop rule". This terminology is not used in academics. It is incorrect to say that in Latin America one drop makes you white. Race relations are a lot more complicated than that. For example in Brazil there are probably a dozen color categories that an Afro-brazilian may be in.
These are just some of the credibility issues facing the article. Muntuwandi 22:46, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
I was wondering whether anyone else thinks the whole political and stylistic controversy over when (or if) "White" and "Black" should be capitalized needs to be addressed somewhere in the article. Mdumas43073 20:58, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
The interwikilink to de:Schwarzafrikaner is factually wrong, the concept described there is a different one. Please remove it. -- 84.137.43.107 18:47, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
Racism is a crime without bail in Brazil. There is no such thing as "upward mobility and education results in reclassification of individuals into lighter skinned categories" because, in this country, each person classifies their own color in the census. What classification are you talking about? This information is false, besides being offensive to anyone who actually LIVES in this country, understands its legislation and is not taking their information from jingoist american books. CuriousDog 13:44, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
Racism is illegal in the US too, but that hasn't prevented the racial polarization in the US. The point of the paragraph in question is to discuss how class, education and social status play a role in race relations in Brazil. In the US one can argue that even middle class and wealthy blacks face considerable discrimination. It is said that race relations are more flexible in Brazil. The reclassification is not a legal classification but I gather it is the dozens of everyday classifications such as those listed here zonalatina eg Mulatinha, mulatta, morena clara. On the census there are only five categories. black white brown indigena yellow. If you are from brazil and know from personal experience then that would be helpful as long as the information that you include is cited from reputable sources. The information in question is cited from books and much of the literature from other sources is consistent in discussing how class and social status play a role in race relations. Muntuwandi 14:06, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
Something that American and European scholars who come to Brazil fail to notice is that there are very little, if any, 100% white people in our country. Those actors that we see in TV and who may seem white to an American or European scholar have most probably either indigenous or african ascendents whose traces though not perceivable in their skin or face are easily detected in their genes. A genetic study of Dayane dos Santos, a famous Brazilan olympic athlete, revealed that she is 39,7% African, 40,8% European and 19,6% Indigenous. Although her skin color is black, it could as well be white and in this case she would be said to be white. That´s what differs the question of race in Brazil and in the USA. Renato Costa 11:41, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
This statement:
seems odd, as if this is not a universal view among the relevant scholars. Surely no modern scientists deny that there are some medical differences between races, e.g. in susceptibility to sickle cell anemia and malaria? (Blacks being more susceptible to the former than whites as a side-effect of being less genetically susceptible to the latter, presumably an evolutionary adaptation as malaria is more common in the tropics.) Ben Finn 13:28, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
Although I'm undoubtedly sure some black Arabs/Latinos consider themselves white (for whatever categorical reasons). The vast majority are not viewed as such in their own countries and aren't seen as such by themselves (it's an undeniable fact when looking in the mirror). But they do consider themselves Arab, which is an unrelated word to white or black. And although Middle Eastern Arabs (particularly white ones) have continuously believed none Arab blacks to be inherently inferior. Black Arabs themselves have never shown any signs of being shunned on the premiss of their color or shunning their color as it may be.
And Moulay Ahmad al-Mansur was not Arab, he belonged to the Sa'adi dynasty of Morocco. He was indeed a Fulani/Berber mix. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by GarnettIsGod ( talk • contribs) 16:20, 16 April 2007 (UTC).
In my opinion, and in the opinion of others I have spoken to, the terms black and brown in themselves are points of contention. That much is obvious. However, instead of arguing that point, which will get me nowhere, I am petitioning for the use of "black people" and "brown people" as opposed to simply "blacks" and "browns". It is not merely a minor linguistic discrepancy, but the latter terms remove the human element from the classification, making the former more favortable if we MUST use either. Of course "blacks" and "browns" are not as blatantly derogatory, but an argument could be made that they are covertly so, and covert racism is the flavor of the day. There is no valid argument that can be made for NOT using "people", and therefore I am making the change throughout the article. Even if it is the case that "blacks" and "browns" are acceptable to some people - NONE of those people would object to "black people" and "brown people". That "blacks" and "browns" are "shorter" terms is entirely irrelevant; here I am addressing Muntuwandi. The N-word is shorter than "African-American", but that does not become justification to use that term. The only argument can be made in favor of "blacks" and "browns" instead of including "people" would have to be a fundmentally racist one in itself. Do no revert this change without better justification. Godheval 19:32, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Julian Bond is one of the stalwart figures in American civil rights affairs, and a very savvy and suave person, too. I just did a search for "Julian Bond" and "speech", and in the first listing I found in one of his recent speeches: "No black could ever come to a white person's front door." The first time I found "black" in that speech it was in the expression "black people."
P0M
04:28, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Again, I fail to even understand why you are fighting me on this. If even one person is offended by the way something is worded, and it can be fixed so that it works for everyone, then why not? I've already exhausted all possible explanations I have for why I want to change it, yet you keep talking in circles, returning to points I've already debated - such as "mainstream validity". The "mainstream" is white. You also seemed to miss where I said that I had no problem with rewording all instances of "whites" to "white people", even though I throughly explained why that was not a double standard. So, there are only two reasons I can think of that you insist on keeping the present wording - 1) to lord over the article and "be right", or 2) you are yourself, to some degree, a racist. Giving you the benefit of the doubt, I'll assume number 1. Either way, I no longer care. I've come to realize that I am too forward-thinking for average minds, and Wikipedia has demonstrated to me on two occasions now that it is run by - your favorite people - the mainstream, those run of the mill, tragically indoctrinated, morons. It is exactly because they are so impersonal, so bureaucratic, so hive-minded, that they will never achieve even a semblance of real humanity. Hm, but I digress. You win. Congrats. Godheval 13:15, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
This is not about winning or loosing. When you have an issue you have to back it up with facts, or citations otherwise it is original reasearch, see
WP:NOR.
Muntuwandi
14:55, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
How in the fuck does chocolate faces redirect to this article! How dare you! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.192.211.221 ( talk) 20:36, 21 April 2007 (UTC).
LOL! I'm Black and I didn't know chocolate faces would redirect me to this acticle! xD Maybe I should check it out...-- 71.36.176.174 20:13, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
Bigger question. Why did you search for "chocolate faces". You're taking a fair bit of umbrage for somebody who searched it...
Slave traders never had any "fear of uprisings" by the people whom they used as their merchandise called "black ivory" by certain people. Velocicaptor 17:04, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Hundreds of slave ships sailed across the North Atlantic Ocean after 1807, especially in the 1820s, 1830s, and 1840s. The slave trade did not "end in 1807" (see the article). That statement is an example of some flagrant propaganda. Velocicaptor 17:20, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
The legal slave trade ended in 1807 with regards to the US. After that it was illegal with britain patrolling the seas. Yes the illegal slave trade continued with the last reported slave ship in cuba circa 1870. However the numbers were severly reduced. Muntuwandi 17:52, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
I glimpsed a mention on a lift further up the page of 'Iberian Black'. Does this term regard Spaniards etc who have African ancestry somewhere, or am I way off? Would this also be what 'Moorish' means? Lady BlahDeBlah 23:42, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
As someone about as white as the day is long, I don't understand this phenomenon. If it doesn't get its own article, shouldn't it be in this article? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.72.21.221 ( talk) 01:12, 2 May 2007 (UTC).
This image shows a typical African American girl, although she is of German descent. I am sick and tired of you removing it. The image shows a good depiction of that type of woman. I am re-enstating it again. Sarah Goldberg 23:50, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
Some articles I've been involved with have gotten away with galleries and other articles have had editors so firmly opposed to galleries that they have been taken down. One article on spiders happens to be about a really beautiful kind of animal, and nobody has objected to two or three rows of pictures of pictures. So one purpose for a gallery can just be to make beautiful pictures available to people. On the other hand, the gallery of all spider picture in the Commons is huge, so somebody has to exercise some judgment on the "over-kill" level.
Besides beauty, the other reason for including pictures is that they can be instructive. In this case, one reasonable requirement would be that each picture should show something special about black people. One instructive thing to show is the range of individuals that all get called black. (Maybe we should add some black Dutch? ;-) Having people with known backgrounds can make it clear that they really are called black. (I know some people who are identified as American Indians, but you'd have to have their BIA cards to prove it to anybody.)
There are also possibly legal issues involved in some cases. I don't know how U.S. law has evolved over the last few decades. Nor do I know how the law reads in other countries that may be involved. It used to be that if I took a picture of somebody and wanted to use it in an advertisement for a soft drink I had to get the person to sign a model release. Their image was considered their image, and I couldn't just take a snapshot of somebody and use it. I don't think people can take a picture of Colin Powell and use his picture in a car advertisement for that reason. People can take a picture of him giving a speech and publish that in the newspaper because he is a public figure and because he is doing something out in public. I'm not sure of the picture that Ms. Goldberg provided. Do we need a model release? What if it turns out she doesn't want her picture used here? (I have the same qualm about the pictures of people of different races used in the race article.)
Anyway, it is generally not considered appropriate for one to put one's own picture in an article, to push one's own book in an article, etc. P0M 02:28, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
There are no biological factors used to "define" black people besides skin pigmentation, so I've removed the mention of biology from the lead paragraph. -- Ezeu 04:37, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
The picture on top, with the caption reading "A Maasai man in Kenya" is wrong. First, she is a woman, and she's not black. Is this vandalism? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.40.85.31 ( talk • contribs) 22:00, 25 May 2007 (UTC).
WTF????? 20:01, 25 May 2007 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.228.227.239 ( talk • contribs) 22:01, 25 May 2007 (UTC).
Black people, or Black, is part of a political or historical terminology used by some cultures or nations. The classification is based on the variation in human skin color and sometimes used by a group to define another section of humanity. It has also been used by communities and individuals to identify their own ethnic backgound, especially African Americans. The validity of the term itself has been the subject of debate; opponents cite the extremely low genetic diversity of the human race, others identify it as a unifying concept for discriminated cultures or communities. The term was notably influential in the United States of America, appearing in laws and censuses during the history of that nation, and maintaining currency in academic discussion and the published media. The apartheid era of South African history identified people of African birth and ethnicity as Black and indigenous inhabitants of Australia, India and elsewhere were sometimes informally or offensively described in this way.
The sociological classification of 'black people' can be a complex intermingling of historical, cultural and familial circumstances; it has, however, been widely used in the reduction or removal of rights and other discrimination in of some nations's past. In the english speaking world, the term is also associated with policies in former colonies, Australia, South Africa and the U.S., during the eighteenth and nineteenth century. In european countries such as Spain, France and Germany, it can refer to an ethnic group whose more recent origin may be the african continent. A contrasting term, white people, refers to those whose ethnicity is mostly northern european; a group whose skin often had lower levels of melanin than other ethnic groups with a greater diversity of skin colour.
Black is a racial, political, sociological or cultural classification of people. ["is"=absolute: actually a highly subjective and contested classification] No people are literally colored black [OK ... !?], but many people who have dark skin color are considered to be. [How? and by whom?]
Some assert that only people of relatively recent African descent are black, while others argue that black may refer to individuals with dark skin color regardless of ethnic origin. [and many others do not consider this a practical distinction. Why is determination of this important and how is it done.] [3][this is commentary not a reference] [4][this is an online dictionary, not a pertinent ref]
The lead can be modified. but anything in the lead that mentions discrimination, racism or colonialization is POV. Black people existed long before these concepts came into being.
Muntuwandi
17:02, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
This argument of black being imposed on by whites is condescending because it implies that the poor blacks cannot even name themselves and they had to wait for europeans to come and give them a derogatory name. As you have read from the article blacks have chosen terms for themselves. First they called themselves Africans, meanwhile whites had used all kinds of derogatory names, but they chose Africans. In 1835 they then chose for themselves the word Negro and colored. Whites conformed to their preferences for formal use because lincoln uses the terms colored. After the civil rights era blacks chose the word "black". They could have chosen any other color but they chose black. So this implying that whites imposed the word when as you can see several times blacks chose a term for themselves, if they didn't like it, they could have chosen something else. Muntuwandi 18:28, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
there is no need to have a category of mixed ancestry because it is too ambiguous. where will one draw the line to say who is mixed and who is not. The category should be possibly even deleted. Muntuwandi 13:03, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
I think the article would be better entitled 'Capoid and/or Congoid because it's speaks of characteristics associated with a more monolithic group/stock of people as opposed to a group classified under social racial implications. Furthermore, Blacks of the world are more aesthetically diverse than what the article indicates. It feeds into stereotypes. Relir 21:55, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
I commented out the section. It is poorly written, and the refs are in Portuguese. My Portuguese is very limited, but I think this test was done on a few famous people. Anyway, isn't it commonly known that people of Brazil are of mixed race? I just didn't want the article to get out of hand. Hopefully someone more knowledgeable can make a decision about this. Possible re-word and translation. Thanks. - Jeeny Talk 00:14, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
BBC's study did not analise only famous Afro-Brazilians. They analised the
DNA of 120 self-reported Blacks from São Paulo. The study was made analising these people's Y chromosome (which comes from the father) and the Mitocondrial DNA (which comes from the mother). If you analised both, they can give you the percentage of European, Amerindian and African ancestors you have. It is a serious study.
I stil do not understand why the user Jeeny erased my contributions without asking me about it first. It is a serious study and should not be erased. Opinoso 16:56, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
“ | A recente genetic study made for BBC Brasil in Black Brazilians' DNA found an interesting fact about their ancestry: most Afro-Brazilians are mostly of European ancestry. The study analised the Mitochondrial genome of 120 self-reported Blacks from São Paulo.[2] The study was made analising these people's Y chromosome (which comes from the father) and the Mitochondrial DNA (which comes from the mother). If you analise both, they can give you the percentage of how much European, Amerindian and/or African genes a person has.
50% of self-reported Black Brazilians are, in fact, of mostly European ancestry. Only 48% of them have more African ancestors than European ones. 1.6% are of mostly Amerindian ancestry.[3] This study confirmed the great miscegenation in Brazil's History: White people largely mixed with Blacks and Indians. |
” |
Firstly it says if you analyze y chromosome and mitochondrial DNA(mtDNA) then you can tell how much admixture a person has. This is incorrect. for example if you follow your family tree up 10 generations(approx 220 years) you will have 1024 ancestors. If by chance the one ancestor who gives you your Y chromosome was of a different race and the other 1023 were of the same race then your y chromosome will be characteristic of a different race even though the other 1023 ancestors will contribute to your physical appearance. thus your admixture will be 1/1024 only. this is because the y chromosome is very small and has very few genes. The only genes it has are the ones that make a person male. Females live without a y chromosome, but males have one X chromosome because that is where the important genes are.
The same with Mitochondrial DNA. It contributes nothing whatsoever to a persons physical appearance. the mitochondria live outside the nucleus and is involved in energy production not in transmitting hereditory information. For a detailed explanation see Recent single-origin hypothesis#Genetics.
The same study was done in Europe which found that a small but significant number of white europeans had Sub-saharan mtDNA or y chromosomes. In portugal almost 4% had mtDNA from africa, Germany 1%, england 0.4%, france 3%. see Sub-Saharan DNA admixture in Europe. I am also sure that if the study was carried out amongst white brazilians there will be a significant amount of African haplotypes too
“ | Essa análise revelou que, por parte de mãe, 102 (85%) dos 120 estudados têm conjuntos de seqüências genéticas (haplogrupos) tipicamente africanos. | ” |
85 % in the study had african haplogroups. Muntuwandi 06:46, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
Once again, the references are still in portuguese. Additionally a consensus was reached that the section shouldn't be added. And at this point a fart in the wind would gain more notice than WP:3RR. CJ 02:24, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
Is there really any point to using an euphamism. I'd prefer to call a spade a spade for clarity and understanding. Aside from that, forced migration means something different than Atlantic slave trade. Firstly, forced migration is just moving people from one place to another. It doesn't say what happens to them when they get there, just that they were forced to move. Saying Atlantic slave trade is clear that we're talking about that specific group of events and not just that people were forced to move, but were pressed into slavery. CJ 14:32, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
there is a dispute on whether Admixture testing can work on Native Americans since they share common haplogroups with Asian populations at Talk:Race_and_genetics#Admixture_studies_in_latin_america
Muntuwandi 00:25, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
There use to be a section which discussed issues with the term black, it had a quote by Diop etc. Can someone put it back because as a reader i would like to get immediately to all opposition.-- RastaRule 13:22, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
Just a tentative suggestion for organising and globalising this article: How about we take a look at the various conceptions of what we mean by 'black', and then structure the article from the general to the specific? As it is, the article dives almost straight away into 'black as African descent'. While this is almost certainly the majority usage worldwide, it misses what I feel are some important points to make.
Firstly—this is just my perspective, so the anthropologists and sociologists here can correct me—'black' at its most general is grounded in the efforts of the lighter-skinned Europeans to characterise the peoples they came into contact with. As such, Australian Aborigines (for instance) are no less 'black' (not just in terms of skin colour, but in terms of being described thus upon European contact) than black Africans.
Secondly, by concentrating on an African-descent definition of 'black', the article implies at times that other people aren't 'really' black, or aren't often called black. Using Aborigines as an example again, they most certainly are called 'black'… in Australia. Globally, it's a minority usage (maybe because there's no Aboriginal diaspora to speak of?) But that in itself doesn't mean it's unimportant, encyclopaedically; and the parallels between usages of the 'black' description for different groups are notable. (For instance, the question of 'Is "black" an acceptable description?' is just as significant in Australia with Aborigines as it is elsewhere with Africans.)
So essentially what I'm advocating is that the article should first treat the different groups identified as 'black', and the history of and parallels between those usages, then perhaps move on to 'black as African descent', being the majority usage. -- Perey 05:13, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
To be objective and neutral, we must accept that black is a "human" concept first, and then debate whether it's an African "only" concept or not. It seems that Tamils and other "non Africans" are ok with being called Black when they are not mistaken for Africans. For Wikipedia to encourage the exclusion of Tamils and other non-Africans is simply to reinforce the bias and prejudice called "negrophobia" or "afrophobia". Think about how someone mentioned that the "reason" why they took the mention of Tamils off (which has been a very well established contribution over the months) is simply because some people "didn't like it". Shall we take off scientific evidence of the old age of the universe just because million creationists don't like it? Of course not. The "Tamil argument" has already been established to include them under the definition of Black because their skin color is as dark as the average "black" person from Africa. Whatever Genetic changes occurred over time, it did not cause their skin to get light. Since they reasonably acknowledge they are black (when the thought of Africans does not come to mind), then we are to address the negrophobia that comes from some black people not wanting to be associated with Africans. It is obvious by now that much of this recurring and redundant debate on this discussion page is due to negrophobia. Or shall we just call my comment "race baiting"? - The Dreaded Pirate Osirica.
I've talked to people all over the world, told them about this Wikipedia entry, so regardless of how my own personal contributions are censored, the influence and position that I represent will not (and has not) been muted nor diminished. Sorry Eurocentricists, you're only bringing more attention to the article by your attempts. No one in their right mind believes that "true blacks" come from historical Africans only. Those that do are either those of Nazi/Eurocentric philosophy or the purely reactionary and ignorant "opposites" who represent the so-called extreme Afrocentricist philosophy. - Osirica
A while back I removed Image:Sadat5.jpg, with caption "The mother of Anwar Sadat, Egypt's third President, was Sudanese" from the page [13]. Considering that the caption was about his mother but the picture was of him, I didn't see anything particularly illustrative about the image and removed it. While I was later reverted by someone probably wikistalking me [14], I still don't think the picture is adding anything to the article so I am going to remove it again.
I'm placing this note on the talk page just to open a space for discussion in case anybody cares, but again, I don't see any real reason this removal should be controversial. Just giving you all a heads up. Thanks. The Behnam 22:24, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
I have a problem with the term 'Anglo' being used as it is quite misunderstood and misused in alot of contexts, if it weren't for popular belief the term probably would not be used in this article. Would it be ok to remove the word from the article ? Gazh 08:46, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
Vmrgrsergrthere is a procedure that must be fulfilled if an image is to be used on wikipedia. See Wikipedia:Image use policy. Muntuwandi 20:57, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
He looks like N!xau. Can anyone confirm whether it's him? It would certainly be better to identify the person by name if known. -- Scottandrewhutchins 16:19, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
I think it would be better if the first image in the article, Image:Afro diversity.jpg, identified the four people by their ethnicity, as opposed to country of origin, because ethnicities stretch across national boundaries. I know the woman at bottom right is Masai, but the others I can't identify. Can someone help with this? Picaroon (Talk) 02:35, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
There are some unsourced statements about South and Southeast Asians being included in the category by "some people". No references are cited, but User:Yom says it was the definition "agreed upon" on the talk page. I should perhaps be reminding everyone that wikipedia is not a place for "agreeing upon" definitions. Only content that can be cited from notable sources is added to wikipedia. If there are sufficient number of notable sources with this definition, we can definitely put it here, but otherwise it would be removed as Original research. As of now, not even a single source is cited, even of dubious notability. The "source" cited clearly restricts the term to "Africa, Oceania, and Australia." If there are certain tribes that have been included in the category by anthropologists, this information has to be sourced. [15] deeptrivia ( talk) 13:48, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
This article is reckless in the use of vagues terms, such as the title, and presenting it as a qualifiable or quantifiable fact. It is a term of self identification (a belief) or an instrument of oppression, these are the only things for which there is a high degree of verifiability through extensive references. It should not become another garden for 'fringe research' that cites nothing later than Linnaeus, a man who gave a taxon to mythical creatures. At best the article is a hodge podge of factoids, at worst it is another platform for bigotry. The term and article is flawed and hopelessly subjective, it needs to be given a sound defintion to expand on, for goodness sake, the first line puts the page title as Black. I suppose it is assumed that the reader will 'know who we mean'. Fred ☻ 14:32, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
This was one of the earlier articles I ever tried to help with. I gave up in disgust after a while. Many others have given up as well, I notice. The difficulty is that a certain cabal of editors feel that they WP:OWN this article, and use the "race card" to do so. This is particularly funny since none of us knows for sure what "race" any of the rest of us are. What I find disturbing is:
The term "black people" is interesting, because it means different things to different people, at different times, and in different places. And what is even stranger is that there is no such thing as a "black person", strictly speaking. And there are lots of examples where the shade of the skin is uncorrelated with the classification as "black". However, as long as this topic is so fraught with political and racial tensions, this article will continue to be essentially worthless, while a small group proudly struts around protecting their "prize".-- Filll 15:04, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 10 | ← | Archive 14 | Archive 15 | Archive 16 | Archive 17 | Archive 18 | → | Archive 20 |
I see blacks from almost everywhere mentioned but India! To leave that large group of black people out does a dissiervice to the article. If the US had thei way, blacks would only be those from the US and 'certain' parts of Africa. You know, the parts that did anything noteworthy or who came into contact and mixed with whites.-- 71.235.81.39 02:16, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
Indians are considered Asian (specifically South-Asian), not black. There may be blacks living in India, or even Indians with skintones resembling black, but for the most part, Indians are not black. --
74.12.81.178
Why is this article titled black people, when wikipedia redirects a search of "white people" to the article "Caucasian People." I believe that this article should be renamed to "African American People," or "Caucasian People" should be renamed to "White People"
—The preceding
unsigned comment was added by
Editingisbad (
talk •
contribs)
20:09, 14 March 2007 (UTC).
Sure, but that would pose as a problem for Jamaicans, Afro-Caribs, Afr-Brazilians, Haitians and everyone else not African AMERICAN.
My thoughts and suggestions are as follows; I question the whole subject as not having WPOV or NPOV in encyclopedic terms. I conclude that the subject "Black people" is too broad a term, and is actually only an observation, and a subjective one at that, made by some people to describe or to categorize as they see fit. It can never be NPOV, not as it is now. Yet, if the subject/title would be "Blacks in the Americas" or some form thereof and which can include topics such as;
And many more topics/subtopics that have to do with valuable contributions/inventions, influence, and oppression that Black People are known for, and have persevered under great injustices, and have a rich and diverse history. We can have other pages connecting to any page(s) that have any of these and other titles listed here. Perhaps disambiguation pages too? This is just my suggestion (and not in any particular order as expressed here) that I feel may alleviate the constant bickering and do away with the many different points of view, edit wars, heated discussions, and have a better WPOV, etc. Just a thought.
I know this is long, and it may be encyclopedic in some areas on this page. Or even ignored altogether. You may think I'm a lunatic, and you may be correct. You may think I'm ignorant of the content that already exists, which can be absolutely correct. But I think this project as it is is not going to work on this site as note worthy, encyclopedic, etc. Heck, it can be put with Genetics, Race, Human Beings, or whatever. Please, just not " Black people" as this will always be more controversial than any of the topics I've suggested, and possibly all can be included an it's own article as I suggested in the beginning of this diatribe Blacks in the Americas just not Black people! forgive me, I think this article, as it is, is embarrassing, stupid, too controversial and can only have individual POV in this context. --Jeeny 20:37, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
why is this guy quoted in the article. He has been accused of being a racist, why does his opinion count. Muntuwandi 21:59, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
Scientific racism has had a huge influence on how black identity has historically been constructed and what it has come to mean and how black people are treated in everyday life, so even if Rushton were a racist (which I don’t think he is) the reader to have a complete understanding of the topic needs to know more than just all the Afrocentric and black views quoted in the article (most black kids hear that on the street growing up, they don't come to encyclopedia's to hear that), but the contemporary “racist” perspective on who is considered black, and from that perspective Rushton is as influential and scholarly as they come. The only reason he is considered racist is because he’s assembled serious data showing black men have larger penises than white men who have larger penises than oriental men. But his data comes from the World Health Organization and is is part of a serious sociobiological theory and Rushton has been defended by very eminent scientists.
Harvard biologist E.O. Wilson (one of the two cofounders of r/K selection theory) states "I think Phil is an honest and capable researcher ... The basic reasoning by Rushton is solid evolutionary reasoning; that is it's logically sound. If he had seen some apparent geographic variation for a non-human species-a species of sparrow or sparrow hawk, for example-no one would have batted an eye." [1]
Rushton is an extremely credible source because he’s spent the last 3 decades studying black people, writing articles about black people in peer reviewed academic journals, and teaching a course on race. I think he’s reliable enough to give a 1 sentence definition of who a black person is. He is a professor of psychology at the University of Western Ontario, London, Ontario, Canada, holds two doctorates from the University of London (Ph.D. and D.Sc) and is a Fellow of the John Simon Guggenheim Foundation, the American Association for the Advancement of Science, and the American, British, and Canadian Psychological Associations. He is also a member of the Behavior Genetics Association, the Human Behavior and Evolution Society, and the Society for Neuroscience. Rushton has published six books and nearly 200 articles. In 1992 the Institute for Scientific Information ranked him the 22nd most published psychologist and the 11th most cited. Professor Rushton is listed in Who's Who in Science and Technology, Who's Who in International Authors, and Who's Who in Canada. Iseebias
some people can be racist all their lives. In fact old habbits die hard.
Muntuwandi
23:19, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
A section about Arabs is fine. It is infact quite relevant if it is about Yemenis etc (some of whom are black). However, as the sub-section is currently about how Arabs view blacks, spiced with ignorancies such as "hybridized blacks", I have removed it. Quote Rushton, but only if it is relevant. Not merely as another attemt to push fringe POV. -- Ezeu 00:47, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
i can almost hear the screaming and shouting Muntuwandi 04:17, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Muntuwandi, but i will do one better, i am picture them killing one another in a ring or something. 2 b fair to both. I agree with Christmas girl (on one point), nobody in their right historical mind would refer to themseleves as black, no people in history have done this. They have been called Black, they either accept it or reject it. No one in Africa ever said "we is blacks" the said "we are Nubian" We are Nigerian or Wolof or Fulani. However Afro centric r not to blame for race lumping. Afrocentrics have done a lot for reforming African identity many dont use the word black. see Kimani Nehusi and Karenga. I do find it amazing however that anyone from anywhere from any identify can take all kinds of shots at the poor Negro. I challenge anyone 2 try that on jew, u cant even breath wrong if you edit there. Their is no group more oppressed than Africans i tell u that. Only 2 race color identify, everyone else has rejected these color labels save the Negro, sorry the Black.-- Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ 14:41, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
The decision to call black was one of necessity to distinguish between the two. Wherever the white man went, he was also given a name. In east africa it was muzungu. the use of the term black was not forced upon, it was more common sense. But at the time there were no negative stereotypes to attach to the word. Muntuwandi 14:52, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Some examples of Greek writings on excessive (in their view) paleness:
Polemon, Physiognomica, 8.11-1:
Blond [CANQH=] and whitish [U(PO/LEUKOS] hair, like that of Scythians signifies stupidity [SKAIO/THTA], evilness [KAKO/THTA], savagery [A)GRIO/THTA]
Pseudo-Aristotle, Physiognomica:
The people whose eyes are light blue-grey [GLAUKOI/] or white [LEUKOI/] are cowards [DEILOI/]
Paul B 15:21, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Actually the Arab slave traders said "we are neither unbaked dough or bunt crust but cooked just right". Christmasgirl
But does anyone ever wonder why first White Americans decided to go all the way to Africa to get their slaves when they had a huge population of Native Americans they could have enslaved? Well there were lots of reasons of course, but one of the biggest according to the history books was the negative attitude the Europeans had towards the color black. They defined black as evil, wicked, soiled, deeply stained by dirt. They couldn't bring themselves to enslaves the people they saw as red as red was considered a pretty color, hence they went all the way to what they called black Africa to get slaves over and over again wasting huge amounts of time and effort when they could have just used Native Americans as slaves who were already in the Americas anyway. That's how much they hated the color black
Christmasgirl
Also, Native Americans used slaves long before any "white" man came to America. The slaves would be captives of warring tribes, among other reasons. Another irony is that when Europeans first used Africans to work their new lands, they were considered indentured servants, and could be freed after a certain amount of time. But then the racial rationalization took over them (greed, ignorance, etc), and they were afraid that Africans would war with them, and didn't want them to mix with the so-called superior whites. They took advantage of taking them from their homelands, and different parts of Africa so the slaves could not communicate with each other as lauguage varied among African tribes. They feared escape plans being made and other such fears the white man had.
It's so complicated the more I type, leads me into another thought and facts are of a very complex nature of the first slaves (not allowing them to read, threats, beatings, etc). Eventually though, yes, whites did justify their slavery of African blacks because they thought them inferior, because of religion reasons (were thought of savages, etc), also their perceived notions that Africans where next to apes, therefore, not true humans (so they could "morally" use slaves like animals). All nations used slavery, from the beginning of times, but nothing like the History of African slavery in the US. Where actual LAWS where made to keep them as less than human for thier own greed,etc. Ugly, ugly ugly. :/ Jeeny 18:03, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Of course other Africans were also involved in selling Africans as slaves. Ugly, ugly ugly. Lukas19 15:26, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
In 1620 ,when the european pilgrims first landed on plymouth rock of the 102 people, 50 died during the first winter from various diseases. A year earlier in 1619 the first africans had landed in virginia. They were not slaves but indentured servants. There must have been great amazement that the africans were not easily succumbing to the various diseases of the new world. millenia of battling malaria and other jungle illnesses made the africans more resistant. They were already good farmers, fishermen and hunters [2]. They knew how to navigate themselves through difficult jungle terrains as many escaped to form communities in the bush eg columbian communtity. because of the skills of the africans, the europeans must have sensed a great economic opportunity. Muntuwandi 22:54, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
71.110.94.89 21:26, 17 July 2007 (UTC)Seek the Truth Africans, Black, Negro African American it doesn't matter! What matters is the truth. The white man has exploied everything and everyone. I would hate to see one form of racisim replaced with another!(Black People holding the power hand) If you believe in nature - nature has a way of cleaning its self. The old reap what you sow. We are now in the 400th year of Black Oppression although things are better now than 400 years ago there is still work to be done. Look at the horizon for our time is near.
I fully appreciate the concept of free speech, but I do not understand why we have to contend with unnecessarily offensive language that is clearly not aimed at improving the article. Even talk pages can be vandalised. Muntuwandi 15:59, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
see Removing uncivil comments- If comments are offensive, wikipedia policy allows for them to be removed, even on talk pages. Muntuwandi 16:14, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
"Although the Koran stated that there were no superior and inferior races and therefore no bar to racial intermarriage, in practice this pious doctrine was disregarded. Arabs did not want their daughters to marry even hybridized blacks. The Ethiopians were the most respected, the "Zanj" (Bantu and other Negroid tribes from East and West Africa south of the Sahara) the least respected, with Nubians occupying an intermediate position"
The Rushton quote is definitely wrong. Africa is huge. It is therefore for exemple very ulikely that Arabs in Egypt would have known about the situation in West Africa. Or that they would have been able to differentiate Ethiopians from Western Africans(In order to avoid intermarriage, etc.). I am from Western Africa. And we had different waves of Arab immigration. And some deffinitely mixed with the local population(Spread of Islam, etc.). Besides, (Christian&Jewish) Ethiopians are often considered as absoulte ennemies of the Arab World. Just ask the Somalis, who are very close to the Jemenites and who can definitely be considered as part of the Arab World, even though they look black.(Afro-German)( 87.176.254.80 17:26, 13 March 2007 (UTC)).
Just go to Egypt, Algeria, Marocco and so on. It is obvious that a sensitive part of the population has African descent. But if you have like 10-20% looking very "African"-even in remote places-, then it is likely that the rest of the population has also a very high likelyhood to have some African ancestrors.( 87.176.254.80 17:42, 13 March 2007 (UTC)).
It just has nothing to do with Skin Colour. Regionally, in Sudan and elsewhere, Arabs and Black Africans look extremely similar. But they clearly differentiate themselves by culture and so on. So Arab slave trade is true. But if somebody is very Black but is extremely well integrated in the Arab society, he might very well marry whoever he wants. => Rushton speaks of "colour" where the key to understanding the problems is culture. ( 87.176.254.80 17:54, 13 March 2007 (UTC)).
Americans have no knowledge about the cultural complexity outside their country.
Some of them might even go to Iraq and think the people there will speak Spanish, beaucause they look "Brown" and therefore must belong to the "Brown race" like the Mexicans, etc.
And because Americans lack this cultural knowledge, they tend to identify themselves by very primitive criterias like "Skin colour", etc.
Just look at the many awfull wars there were in Europe, and you will understand that it is totally crazy to put whites, blacks or others in one group just beacuse they somewhat look similar.
Now other countries, cultures, etc. also have many problems. But as a whole, this article does only make sense in the US.( 87.176.254.80 17:35, 13 March 2007 (UTC)).
If an editor feels a tag is valid, unless it is really stupid u shouldnt take it off. Allow the debate to back up the tag and then determine if the tag is valid. As i have asked the editor, is the tag the correct tag. Tags dont hurt anyone. the minute we start deleting tags we become dictators, tags should not be deleted and those posting the tags should also be quick to explain the tag, as i have asked the editor to do. Until it is resolved the tag stays. I was the one that added avoid the pan-Americanism, i have an issue with the term when it is exported to mean what Americans say it means. Is that what the issue is? I dont think the article is unbalanced, but allow the editor time to explain his views. there is no admin, no collection no matter how large that can out weigh the rules. wiki shouldnt b mob rule. allow the debate-- Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ 01:46, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
why nominate this article for deletion when it is pretty obvious the deletion will not go through. Muntuwandi 17:40, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
well its up to the readers i actually think i did a good thing. well if the page isnt gonna be deleted then why worry? i think it is a strange page anyway. and i think it is wrong to point out black and white people. and i think the black people section is full of wrong facts and alot of racist facts.the msot strange thing is the massaj man,i mean does he really represent the black community?-- Matrix17 18:07, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
There is no global black community. One of the topics that has been discussed is diversity among "black people". There is much cultural, genetic and lingustic diversity within Africa, in fact over 1800 languages are spoken. Outside of Africa blacks live all over the americas speaking dutch, french, spanish, portuguese, english and other creolized lingos. The idea of a black community is US centric. we should speedily undelete the article as it will just be waste of energy going through the debate. Muntuwandi 18:17, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
make you say on the deletion page entry instead of here... their are already one saying it should strongly be deleted. so i am not in charge here. i still think i agree with the person writing that it is wrong to have this page.and we are all tired of this editing wars all the time-- Matrix17 19:33, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
the dark skinned people of africa and their descendents numbering almost 1 billion, too many to form one single monolithic community(eg francophone and anglophone africa). but there are some shared characteristics.
1 chiefly darker skin and other phenotypes, with many exceptions.
2 A shared recent history.
3 Outside of africa one is likely to face discrimination from being dark skinned.
4 Even though cultures are different certain cultural elements are ubiquitous throughout africa and the new world(eg
cornrows).
Blacks are not one community in the sense that one person can be representative of all, but at the moment they are enough of a group to be easily recognized and identified as a group. Muntuwandi 19:38, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
make your vote on the deletion tag on the front page on Keep or Delete. Their is already one saying strongly deletion on this page because of the constant editing wars and strong opinions for deletion and not deletion here,their is no use to fight over it here. make your voice heard in the issue. i think this is a strongly deletion page to,i have also now voted for strong deletion due to the various racist toughts on this article like the vanuatu man ,whats that?>?..-- Matrix17 19:41, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
I had mentioned earlier that when society becomes colorblind, I would be the first to nominate this article for deletion, but we are still a long way from that. Yes there have been some strenouos edit wars. My opinion is this is because of the desire to incorporate complicated, extreme or exotic views. I very much favor scientific views over sociological opinion because science is more objective. So and so's opinion always has a motive. Whether it be cheikh anta diop or rushton. A scientific study whose results can be reproduced regardless of who is doing the study is more respectable. I earlier proposed restructuring and simplifying article because in its current state I can only make sense of the gallery. I will make a vote but i think it is a waste time because deleting this article will mean deleting all articles on ethnicity, white people, asian people etc. which i do not see happening. Muntuwandi 20:01, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
Make your vocie heard on the deletion tag to the entry instead.i dont agree with you at all just want to point that out.-- Matrix17 20:04, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
The AfD nomination was (permaturely) closed after a mere 4½ hours. I sent it to Deletion Review Wikipedia:Deletion_review#Black_people. Editors may care to comment. Jd2718 01:32, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
1st - Why is there an article titled 'Black People'?? That is not very politically correct. 2nd - Hugo Chavez is not considered balck by anybody. Randomfrenchie 02:08, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Where is your comment regarding the existence of the "White People" article? I don't see your comments in that article's discussion page. Where is the request to delete the "White (People)" article in any event? -- 208.254.174.148 02:16, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Right here, where White people was closed with Speedy Keep. Along with similar articles for Asians, etc. etc. ⇒ SWATJester On Belay! 06:30, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
1st - There is the term Negroid to refer to all black people but the term African American would be politically incorrect due to those that are NOT from America that are black.
If an old hypothesis has now been discarded, is it necessary to mention it. For example carlton coon categorized the races. He believed that that the black race and white race evolved seperately over a million years. These theories have now been disproved. Is it thus necessary to mention these archaic theories. I think they just add to the spirit of animosity. I suggest we replace all old hypothesis with what mainstream science says. the old stuff can be placed in a more appropriate article or simply remain on the author's page. Muntuwandi 05:10, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
If they are still important they can remain on the page of the author of those theories or a "history of race" page. For example when talking about the earth and globalization we no longer mention that people once thought the earth was flat. Muntuwandi 12:08, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
This article is making out that ALL Indians are black. These are contentious claims when Indo-Aryans are usually classed as Caucasoid and are racially and even genetically more similar to Europeans. This Italian opera Singer Andrea Bocelli http://image.listen.com/img/356x237/0/2/4/4/504420_356x237.jpg Looks like a Punjabi. Should he be included in the `Marginal Blacks' Image gallery as well? He would be classed as white by most census definitions. Please write Tamil, Dravidian or South Indian School girls instead of contending that all South Asians are black, or better still, delete their images alltogether. Many Saudis look more Negroid than Indians, and they'd be classed as white in the US census. `Brown' is usually the preferred colour metaphor for Indians..—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 58.169.34.17 ( talk • contribs) 11:12, 25 March 2007 (UTC).
Most Punjabis are actually Indo-Aryans, resembling a Mediterranean Type like Nahwaz Sharif pictured here http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1030000/images/_1032134_nawaz150.jpg Like I said about Andrea Bocelli, he looks pretty brown to me and that's why I personally do not consider ALL Southern Europeans as `white' either. Off the subject, why is there a Nazi Swastika frequently appearing on the first image of this page?
I have lived in London and I came across a few Southern Italians and Greeks who looked South Asian. I have also known Italians who have experienced racism and been called `Pakis'. They are mixed race populations so it is not surprising. They cannot be classed as white! the previous comment is in support of the fallacy of Indians constituting a `race unto themselves'. There is NO standard appearance of what an Indian is supposed to `look' like.
Why not include this image of Omar Abdullah in the gallery just on the grounds that he is Indian! http://www.krav-magaindia.com/images/omarabdullah.jpg
I have to strongly disagree with this, i myself am Tamil & 1/4 chinese. My father was very dark skin and would be considered black anywhere else in the world, actually BEING and having been around tamils i can very clearly say that tha majority to almost all tamils i have seen have all had dark skin and myself have faced racism having even been called "Nigger". Since the person above me used pictures to prove indians being more closer to europeans with pictures of tamils and south indians. I feel obliged defending the notion of Tamils as to be able to be known as "blacks",
A Tamil Nadu Soccer Player http://www.hindu.com/2007/02/11/images/2007021108521701.jpg
a group of tamil nadu men http://www.foodrelief.org/gallery/albums/tamil-nadu-relief/tamil-nadu-relief-023.jpg
Tamil Nadu females http://abroadabroad.ca/wp-content/uploads/2006/04/PICT0057.jpg
A Tamil male with a caucasion/"white" female http://farm1.static.flickr.com/56/125773211_c5384b5fd7.jpg?v=0
Another group of Tamils http://www.tn.gov.in/pressrelease/archives/pr2005/pr311005/oct31b.jpg
Tamils Kids in a village in Tamil Nadu http://www.amazingindia.info/images/fullsize/village2.jpg
a Tamil Nauch (Dancing Girl) http://lcweb2.loc.gov/frd/cs/sri_lanka/lk02_02d.jpg
Tamils in australia http://www.ltteps.org/mainpages/images/2005/03/Delegation_in_Austria.jpg
Young tamil girl http://www.bnp.org.uk/images/newsarchive19/tamil+female.jpg
Singaporean musician & comedian Siva Choy http://www.starhub.net.sg/~viyo/Sivatwin150.jpg
I think i have made my point, to say that Tamils can not be considered "Black" i find unbelievable because tamils have very dark skin. Also noted the person who had pictures of fair Tamil's, it is the same case with modern day African Americans where you see a lot of fair skinned African Americans and also in Asia light skin is thought as beautiful while dark skin is considered ugly thus not having a lot of dark tamil actor's because they would come off as unpleasing to watch and as i am sure majority of the pictures the person above me put were actor's. Now if this column is to stay up, i insist that tamils at least stay in the column because i think it is rather obvious from the proof i have given that Tamils at least can be considered "Black".
I think the term "black" is used by white (ie Northern European descended) people rather indiscriminately. I know that amongst ourselves that virtually anyone who is not fair-skinned is liable to be called black. Black, as white people use it, does not simply refer to those who would be scientifically or culturally classed as Negroid, but any dark skinned person- be it Indian, Arab, Turkish, PAki, Polynesian. This might not be correct , but the average person isn;t exactly a paleoanthropologist, are they? As for the nth vs sth india arguement: it is a generalisation, yes, but it is generally true that northern indians are lighter skinned becasue of the mixture with the iranian tribes. Same deal with Italians. Northern italians are generally fairer than southerners because they northerners are mixed with germans whereas the southerners often mixed with northern africans (over the millenia)
First of all, i did not imply that Africans and Indians are the same. However this article is "Black People" rather than "Africans", almost all the Tamil people i know refer themselves as Black not because they believe they are African but because of their skin color. In many cases in columns with the subject of "black people" you can always spot an Indian or too (mistakenly if you must) put there. Whether we are genetically closer to Europeans than to Africans seems to have been debated on many times as the 'Afro centric perspective' would say. Now onto the physical features of the people i have posted, i don't really know what "looking pretty Indian" because that could mean anything. From the time i have spent with all kinds of Indians appeaence varies especially in Tamil, some features-wise look more like the one's you have posted while others i have seen have had thick lips, broad noses and afro like hair so "looking Indian" can be varied as i think the pictures i have put up have proved in fact. As you can see in picture #7 she has thick lips and a broad nose, i have to end this now because where i am at it is late and i am rather tired however like i first stated i believe we are black (based on skin color and appearance) and NOT African. Now if you want to get into genetics, people whose jobs are to find these things out have yet to come to a real conclusion whether we are closer to Europeans or Africans so I'll leave that one alone but if you want to believe you are closer to a European, more power to you.
blacks posing as tamils? i think u will find its the other way round my friend. go look at hi5 Dee.paul 16:50, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
FIRSTLY, I AM NOT A PUNJABI GUY MR `ASIAN2DURACELL' SECONDLY, MANY ANTHROPOLOGISTS HAVE CLASSED INDO-ARYANS AS HAVING MEDITERRANEAN ELEMENTS. LIKE MY IMAGE OF OMAR ABDULLAH WHICH I POSTED WHO LOOKS WHITER THAN MANY SOUTHERN EUROPEANS, WHY ARE YOU CONTENDING THAT ALL GREEKS AND ITALIANS ARE WHITE REGARDLESS OF COMPLEXION? hARDLY ANY nOTHERN EUROPEAN I KNOW WOULD THINK SO. THEY MAY BE FAIRER THAN YOU WHO IS A TAMIL, BUT NOT COMPARED TO A NORDIC. R1A1 IS A SOUTH ASIAN, WEST ASIAN AND EAST EUROPEAN DNA HAPLOGROUP WHICH DOES NOT PROLIFERATE AMONG EAST ASIANS IN LARGE NUMBERS, HENCE SOUTH ASIANS ARE NOT CLOSER TO EAST ASIANS (AS A WHOLE) GENETICALLY!
thx mister "i dont want to sign my posts". U have to understand that not JUST ur INDO ARYANS, but also the so called DRAVIDIANS are Mediterranean Caucasoid.. and so is most of India today. From Southern Europe over the MiddleEast to India, the people are so called "Meditarranean" what ever that means. Ofcourse are Italians and Greeks fairer than Tamils, and about atleast 95% of the Indian population North or South. I live in Europe, so u dont have to tell me what "Nordics" think on skin colour. Yes indeed some Nordics will call Spaniards/Italians/Portugese/Greeks as brown. But most dont. Where I live there are atleast 300'000 to 500'000 Southern Europeans mostly Sicilians. And hell they look "white" to me. Some are darker some are fairer. Its the same in India. Indians usually have "dark" skinned and "fair" skinned siblings, but that doesnt make them to be of a separate ethnicity. And Sub-SaharanAfricans are black, whether they have dark or light skin. Finally, its not me who claim to be of EastAsian ancestry, the last thing i look like is "EastAsian". But some anthropologists do think so. But that doesnt mean its true. But i guess we are closer related to EastAsians as we think, even thug we dont look like them.
Asian2duracell
22:45, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
This image of a Swedish (Nordic) and a Greek (Mediterranean) mix does not look White http://www.knowprose.com/images/Yusuf_Islam.jpg It is Cat Stevens who self identifies as mixed race on his own website and I agreee with him 110%!! He looks Pakistani, more than Nikki Bedi or Nasser Hussain do, who are both classed as mixed race `black' according to the faulty logic of this article!
Firstly, the first statement in the sentence was problematic. The statement that people who equate black with African descent have a narrow minded view is personal opinion. A lot of people argue that blacks are the only people indigenous to Africa, and any Caucasian presence is due to relatively late immigration. Africans traveled and populated the entire world, it would be extremely foolish and plain racist to assume that they couldn't of populated the northern part of their own continent. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Taharqa ( talk • contribs) 08:17, 29 March 2007 (UTC).
Under Mostafa Hefny, I added an additional statement which is relevant to the topic.
Quote:
"Although Mostafa admits the region of Africa he comes from is North of the Sahara, he claims that he is black because his ancestors were from the ancient kingdom of Nubia, now part of Egypt and Sudan. In 1997, Mostafa attempted to sue the U.S. government to get his racial identity changed.[26] Though seemingly there is a contradiction here, as Nubia was also North of the Sahara and so is most of modern day Sudan."
Mostafa could very likely be a descendant of the Ancient Egyptians or Nubians, who knows (many people in southern Egypt look like him, and they are native)? I don't see where the U.S census gets off on telling people that the original inhabitants of North Africa were 'white' (including Egypt, when even to this day they aren't all 'white', that's mainly the Northern Arab Egyptians) then try and cover their absurdism by claiming this is simply a socio-political label and not scientific classification. Africans spread across the entire world, it would be foolish to believe that they didn't settle in North Africa, which is the closest thing to them. Egypt and Race is a whole other debate, just check the wiki article for that. Taharqa 08:01, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
It’s no more racist to say Blacks are from sub-Saharan Africa than it is to say that Caucasians are from North Africa and Western Eurasia, and East Asians are from East Asia. It’s no more insulting to say Blacks did not populate Africa North of the Sahara than it is to say Caucasians didn’t populate Africa South of the Sahara or Eurasia East of the Himalayas or that East Asians didn’t populate Asia West of the Himalayas. Although most anthropologists now reject the idea of race (or at least use less loaded terminology like ethnic group, genetic cluster, or population) geneticist Neil Rich argues that humans separated by barriers that impeded gene flow (i.e. major deserts, mountain ranges, oceans) separated into races [ [4]] so if you’re going to speak of racial groups, you have to define their limits by landmarks that historically prevented them from blending into other races (otherwise how could races have emerged as relatively separate groups assuming you believe that they did). So that’s one reason why the definition of Black is frequently restricted to Sub-Saharan ancestry. The other reason is climate. As Muntuwandi has repeatedly explained, only the tropics and semi-tropics produce skin color normally described as black, so any dark skinned peoples living in North Africa would have to be the descendants of relatively recent arrivals (though how recent, and how long ago North Africa was first populated is a matter of debate). As for your claim that Africans spread around the world; this is generally regarded as an Afrocentric view, though future research and discoveries may prove Afrocentrics right. It's sometimes just a matter of semantics. For example if you define Australian Aboriginals as Black you may also define them as Africoid, in which case you can cite the recent discovery of an ancient Australian aboriginal skull in the Americas as evidence for your assertions. However those who take a genetic view do not consider Africans and Australian aboriginals as part of the same population. Iseebias 12:19, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
This map is completely misplaced. I already removed it once. By placing a map so high that links to articles that all refer to various terms in the United States - with no caption or explanation to its relevance - is not helpful. It was restored on the basis that it shows who is "legally black" in the U.S. Whatever that issue involves should be in some subsection which deals with that country. Not high up in what appears to be a general part of the article. It is very misleading in its present context.-- Zleitzen (talk) 13:33, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
I tried to put a caption under the map, but could not figure out how to do it with the new syntax being used. I tried using the old way of showing messages, but then the labels and links on the map did not show up. I think the user who wants to can figure out what the map does, anyway. P0M 01:05, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
I modified the map by making it one image including the text so that a caption would be easier to include with it. I'm not sure how it would look on other monitors or browsers with the text as part of the image now, though. I haven't uploaded it to Wiki. Thought I'd get feedback first. I can't seem to post it directly on this page, here's the link: Modified US census map
Question: Does the Census Bureau have a policy on which tabulation options data users should use when comparing data on race from Census 2000 and previous censuses?
Answer: The Census Bureau is providing different tabulation options so that users may decide which option best satisfies their needs. In addition, the Census Bureau will provide a data file, using results from the Census Quality Survey to be conducted in the summer of 2001, that will assist users in developing ways to make comparisons between Census 2000 data on race, where respondents were asked to report one or more races, and data on race from other sources that asked for only a single race.
Question: What are the race groups that federal agencies are to use to comply with the Office of Management and Budget's guidance for civil rights monitoring and enforcement?
Answer: The categories (made available in OMB Bulletin No. 00-02, "Guidance on Aggregation and Allocation of Data on Race for Use in Civil Rights Monitoring and Enforcement" [6]) to be used are:
(end, there is more at the link above)
I had an editing war when I first saw this section a month of so ago, because of the example of Hefny (1997), and no mention of him since! Not in any references that I can find. Another reason I was against it is because it's about the frickin US Census! Which is, supposedly, only to help "create equitable legislative representation" and to monitor civil rights and enforcement for protection. Not make people choose between Black and White, Blue or purple.
While, I am not sure about immigrants entering the US at this time, I DO KNOW one can choose one's race that one identifies with, ALSO one may choose NOT to check ANY one of them. It is NOT required. Again, I don't know about immigrants entering the US, but those who are in the US at the time of a Census. Another ALSO, not everyone fills out those dang things either. It's not a law to comply (It is illegal to be in the country illegally, lol. but that's a whole other story). I guess one can call it a civic duty (census) so that the people are fairly represented in the US, but it's not a law but it is strongly encouraged that everyone participate. Jeeny 19:27, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
I believe hefny is a one off case, its an interesting story but it ends there. my preference would be to remove hefny because i do not see his situation affecting many people. yes they are many afro-arabs in saudi arabia and yemen but they are not complaining. Muntuwandi 19:33, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for clarifying the U.S. census. Reading the census information provided, and the background sources, there is no mention of Europe, nor "Sub-Saharan" anywhere. It seems to me that the map is actually original research, is it not? An editor has taken it upon themselves to establish white=Europe and North Africa, and Black=Sub Saharan Africa in relation to the census, when no such definitions were offered. -- Zleitzen (talk) 07:08, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
I think this heading is misleading because I don't think there is any active debate or controversy going on regarding the term. It is recognized by the UN as a Subregion. the assertion that it is racist really doesn't have much support because very often it is black africans themselves who want to be distinguished from their northern comrades page 20. What i think can be racist is the context within which the term is used, not the term itself( eg even the term "black" can be racist depending on the context). I do not see any difference between the cultural distinctions between east africa and west africa. Therefore I propose to change the heading to sub-saharan africa, and the notion that it is racist should be considered WP:FRINGE.
Secondly, how relevant is the case of Mostafa hefny. for example Naomi Campbell can make the sam e claim, stating that she is british and therefore by US law she is white. but that does not hold water because her ancestors are eventually from sub-saharan africa via jamaica. The same can be said for hefny. Somewhere in his recent family history his ancestors came from the same place all dark skinned people came from which is Sub-saharan africa. Muntuwandi 16:59, 30 March 2007 (UTC) Muntuwandi 16:59, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
I have made an attempt to make the section less US centric and more about SSA itself. but i still question how relevant hefny is because he seems to be the only person going through such a dilemma Muntuwandi 19:16, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
It feels fine to know that
This is really gratifying. -- Ezeu 01:49, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
This article is written from the point of view that "Black" is a biological category. Biology, genetics, and blood lines underly most of the writing. There is not a single section to point to. Jd2718 02:29, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
a few controversial changes. I think old theories are obsolete and should be removed. Muntuwandi 04:33, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
there's no evidence of an internal African identification based on skin color; .... This article insistently puts forward a timeless notion of Blackness based on ancestry and biology....
If there is POV in the article we should pinpoint the exact areas for discussion rather than it just being a general POV. Muntuwandi 13:37, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
this article is controversial but if they are disputes they should be highlighted directly ie sentence, paragraph. the concept of some abstract pov somewhere does not communicate the problem. until this is done there is no need to have the npov tag
Muntuwandi
12:27, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
the results of lewontins study have been confirmed by DNA because in his study he used blood groups. This was before DNA technology was available. So these are not his personal views, though I am sure he has them, they are results of his experiments.
Clustering- there is still much debate over clustering, some argue that it is the correlation of the DNA not the actual variation. but once again the debate at the moment still favors that clustering of traits is still insignificant to differentiate any race. This because human race is descended from one african couple who lived 150, 000. In evolutionary terms this time is insignificant considering the millions of years that hominids have been in existence.
Blood groups though simplistic is still a valid argument. The fact that two people from the same race, such as two whites, who are have different blood ABO blood types can be incompatible for a blood transfusion and two people from a different race with the same blood type are compatible such as a black and white is an example of human variation. One may make an argument in regards to rare blood types that ethnic specific, but the keyword is rare. Muntuwandi 00:17, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
I find it ironic that shortly after Ezeu praised the great shape the article was in, Muntawandi felt the need to make an enormous revision removing a large number of references on the grounds that old theories are obsolete (as if there were a correct definition of what it means to be Black). If your goal was to please the guy who is complaining this article is POV, it didn't work, as you are currently in an edit war with him. The article as it stands now simply duplicates information already available in articles on race, the single origin hypothesis, and human skin color, and the African diasporas, and merges them together into one incoherent hybrid. Muntawandi I understand your desire to turn this into a science article, but the term Black is seldom used in the scientific community so science shouldn't be the dominant theme of the article, especially when that information is already duplicated in other articles. I think we should focus much more on Black as a label, that way this article can offer something unique instead of just duplicating other articles. Science should only be mentioned to describe how scientists have labeled people Black, but if this article is to be anything other than a duplicate of existing articles, it needs to focus on various perspectives of Black identity Iseebias 14:27, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
But Iseebias you say the article was better April 1st, but you were in the forefront advocating the article to be deleted. this is contradictory Muntuwandi 18:44, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
It is not my wish to make this article a science article but modern science is relevant to the article. As mentioned in the article old myths like the hamitic curse say that blacks were cursed and burnt by god hence black skin. In this day and age there are still people who believe such myths. But science says the opposite, that black skin was actually a blessing necessary to survive. There are other myths around that perpetuate notions of racial superiority and inferiority. thus we see their effects in the color stratifications of many countries. once again science shows there is no fundamental biological difference between populations and that in fact the human race is just one extended family. Even though to scientist this is new, these concepts were known to most religions. The
Abrahamic Religions all indicate the human race is descended from Adam and Eve, science just seems to confirm that we are all descended from one couple.
One of the problems that i see in the article is extensive use of quotes from people who are not known or who may not be credible. It is better to have explanations rather than quotes. Because the quotes are an opinion of one person. If they are not backed by facts, surveys or experiments then they may not even be true. Muntuwandi 20:29, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Mostafa Hefny is relevant because his situation illustrates the effect that racism distorts a person's own racial view point. Someone else said that most afro-arabs in the middle east aren't complaining about being classified as white, but the fact is, 1. they are not white. 2. they aren't in the US and Hefny was put in a context regarding racial perceptions in the US 3. they arent' complaining because of the social-economic benefits they get for being classified as white. Hefny's case is important becuase it gets to the heart of where and why Egypt is considered part of the "white" racial category when in fact much of Egypt is obviously indistinguishably black! -- 68.60.55.162 04:07, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
Thank god for reference #56. This refreshing response is effective in dealing with the most annoying aspect of Eurocentric bias. It is so silly to call north-east Africans caucasoid when we can plainly see that they are black african negroid people. The "Caucasoid" type has gradually increased in scale when scientists continue to unscientificly make associations between North African blacks and Europeans. The most interseting aspect is how bi-racial people of a mixture of unquestioned negroid and caucasoid parentage will routinely be classified as "Caucasoid" with negroid admixture. Physically, the middle ground is perceived in certain social situations (Egyptian and Sudanese hood) as "Caucasoid" and in others (American hood) as "negroid". In the end, the association is purely political and black people (whether called Caucasoid or not) experience the same prejudice in Sudan, Egypt, and India as they experience in the U.S.A. That alone should remind us of the irrelevance of classifying a Sudanese or Egyptian black person as a "Caucasian". Same with the Ancient Egyptians. The amount of "white" genes will not cause people to look at Tim Duncan, Halle Berry, or Barack Obama as more Caucasoid than Akhenaten, Queen Tiye, or Tutmoses... yet the Egyptians will be forced into being Caucasoid! . -- 68.60.55.162 14:18, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
There are several inaccuracies in the version April 1st to start with this table Post World War II". 2005. August 28, 2006.</ref> does not site who the anthropologists that are surveyed, neither does it give their rationale, it looks like just their opinion. It thus does not seem to qualify as a reputable source.
There are even some inaccuracies for instance "reverse one drop rule". This terminology is not used in academics. It is incorrect to say that in Latin America one drop makes you white. Race relations are a lot more complicated than that. For example in Brazil there are probably a dozen color categories that an Afro-brazilian may be in.
These are just some of the credibility issues facing the article. Muntuwandi 22:46, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
I was wondering whether anyone else thinks the whole political and stylistic controversy over when (or if) "White" and "Black" should be capitalized needs to be addressed somewhere in the article. Mdumas43073 20:58, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
The interwikilink to de:Schwarzafrikaner is factually wrong, the concept described there is a different one. Please remove it. -- 84.137.43.107 18:47, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
Racism is a crime without bail in Brazil. There is no such thing as "upward mobility and education results in reclassification of individuals into lighter skinned categories" because, in this country, each person classifies their own color in the census. What classification are you talking about? This information is false, besides being offensive to anyone who actually LIVES in this country, understands its legislation and is not taking their information from jingoist american books. CuriousDog 13:44, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
Racism is illegal in the US too, but that hasn't prevented the racial polarization in the US. The point of the paragraph in question is to discuss how class, education and social status play a role in race relations in Brazil. In the US one can argue that even middle class and wealthy blacks face considerable discrimination. It is said that race relations are more flexible in Brazil. The reclassification is not a legal classification but I gather it is the dozens of everyday classifications such as those listed here zonalatina eg Mulatinha, mulatta, morena clara. On the census there are only five categories. black white brown indigena yellow. If you are from brazil and know from personal experience then that would be helpful as long as the information that you include is cited from reputable sources. The information in question is cited from books and much of the literature from other sources is consistent in discussing how class and social status play a role in race relations. Muntuwandi 14:06, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
Something that American and European scholars who come to Brazil fail to notice is that there are very little, if any, 100% white people in our country. Those actors that we see in TV and who may seem white to an American or European scholar have most probably either indigenous or african ascendents whose traces though not perceivable in their skin or face are easily detected in their genes. A genetic study of Dayane dos Santos, a famous Brazilan olympic athlete, revealed that she is 39,7% African, 40,8% European and 19,6% Indigenous. Although her skin color is black, it could as well be white and in this case she would be said to be white. That´s what differs the question of race in Brazil and in the USA. Renato Costa 11:41, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
This statement:
seems odd, as if this is not a universal view among the relevant scholars. Surely no modern scientists deny that there are some medical differences between races, e.g. in susceptibility to sickle cell anemia and malaria? (Blacks being more susceptible to the former than whites as a side-effect of being less genetically susceptible to the latter, presumably an evolutionary adaptation as malaria is more common in the tropics.) Ben Finn 13:28, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
Although I'm undoubtedly sure some black Arabs/Latinos consider themselves white (for whatever categorical reasons). The vast majority are not viewed as such in their own countries and aren't seen as such by themselves (it's an undeniable fact when looking in the mirror). But they do consider themselves Arab, which is an unrelated word to white or black. And although Middle Eastern Arabs (particularly white ones) have continuously believed none Arab blacks to be inherently inferior. Black Arabs themselves have never shown any signs of being shunned on the premiss of their color or shunning their color as it may be.
And Moulay Ahmad al-Mansur was not Arab, he belonged to the Sa'adi dynasty of Morocco. He was indeed a Fulani/Berber mix. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by GarnettIsGod ( talk • contribs) 16:20, 16 April 2007 (UTC).
In my opinion, and in the opinion of others I have spoken to, the terms black and brown in themselves are points of contention. That much is obvious. However, instead of arguing that point, which will get me nowhere, I am petitioning for the use of "black people" and "brown people" as opposed to simply "blacks" and "browns". It is not merely a minor linguistic discrepancy, but the latter terms remove the human element from the classification, making the former more favortable if we MUST use either. Of course "blacks" and "browns" are not as blatantly derogatory, but an argument could be made that they are covertly so, and covert racism is the flavor of the day. There is no valid argument that can be made for NOT using "people", and therefore I am making the change throughout the article. Even if it is the case that "blacks" and "browns" are acceptable to some people - NONE of those people would object to "black people" and "brown people". That "blacks" and "browns" are "shorter" terms is entirely irrelevant; here I am addressing Muntuwandi. The N-word is shorter than "African-American", but that does not become justification to use that term. The only argument can be made in favor of "blacks" and "browns" instead of including "people" would have to be a fundmentally racist one in itself. Do no revert this change without better justification. Godheval 19:32, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Julian Bond is one of the stalwart figures in American civil rights affairs, and a very savvy and suave person, too. I just did a search for "Julian Bond" and "speech", and in the first listing I found in one of his recent speeches: "No black could ever come to a white person's front door." The first time I found "black" in that speech it was in the expression "black people."
P0M
04:28, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Again, I fail to even understand why you are fighting me on this. If even one person is offended by the way something is worded, and it can be fixed so that it works for everyone, then why not? I've already exhausted all possible explanations I have for why I want to change it, yet you keep talking in circles, returning to points I've already debated - such as "mainstream validity". The "mainstream" is white. You also seemed to miss where I said that I had no problem with rewording all instances of "whites" to "white people", even though I throughly explained why that was not a double standard. So, there are only two reasons I can think of that you insist on keeping the present wording - 1) to lord over the article and "be right", or 2) you are yourself, to some degree, a racist. Giving you the benefit of the doubt, I'll assume number 1. Either way, I no longer care. I've come to realize that I am too forward-thinking for average minds, and Wikipedia has demonstrated to me on two occasions now that it is run by - your favorite people - the mainstream, those run of the mill, tragically indoctrinated, morons. It is exactly because they are so impersonal, so bureaucratic, so hive-minded, that they will never achieve even a semblance of real humanity. Hm, but I digress. You win. Congrats. Godheval 13:15, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
This is not about winning or loosing. When you have an issue you have to back it up with facts, or citations otherwise it is original reasearch, see
WP:NOR.
Muntuwandi
14:55, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
How in the fuck does chocolate faces redirect to this article! How dare you! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.192.211.221 ( talk) 20:36, 21 April 2007 (UTC).
LOL! I'm Black and I didn't know chocolate faces would redirect me to this acticle! xD Maybe I should check it out...-- 71.36.176.174 20:13, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
Bigger question. Why did you search for "chocolate faces". You're taking a fair bit of umbrage for somebody who searched it...
Slave traders never had any "fear of uprisings" by the people whom they used as their merchandise called "black ivory" by certain people. Velocicaptor 17:04, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Hundreds of slave ships sailed across the North Atlantic Ocean after 1807, especially in the 1820s, 1830s, and 1840s. The slave trade did not "end in 1807" (see the article). That statement is an example of some flagrant propaganda. Velocicaptor 17:20, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
The legal slave trade ended in 1807 with regards to the US. After that it was illegal with britain patrolling the seas. Yes the illegal slave trade continued with the last reported slave ship in cuba circa 1870. However the numbers were severly reduced. Muntuwandi 17:52, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
I glimpsed a mention on a lift further up the page of 'Iberian Black'. Does this term regard Spaniards etc who have African ancestry somewhere, or am I way off? Would this also be what 'Moorish' means? Lady BlahDeBlah 23:42, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
As someone about as white as the day is long, I don't understand this phenomenon. If it doesn't get its own article, shouldn't it be in this article? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.72.21.221 ( talk) 01:12, 2 May 2007 (UTC).
This image shows a typical African American girl, although she is of German descent. I am sick and tired of you removing it. The image shows a good depiction of that type of woman. I am re-enstating it again. Sarah Goldberg 23:50, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
Some articles I've been involved with have gotten away with galleries and other articles have had editors so firmly opposed to galleries that they have been taken down. One article on spiders happens to be about a really beautiful kind of animal, and nobody has objected to two or three rows of pictures of pictures. So one purpose for a gallery can just be to make beautiful pictures available to people. On the other hand, the gallery of all spider picture in the Commons is huge, so somebody has to exercise some judgment on the "over-kill" level.
Besides beauty, the other reason for including pictures is that they can be instructive. In this case, one reasonable requirement would be that each picture should show something special about black people. One instructive thing to show is the range of individuals that all get called black. (Maybe we should add some black Dutch? ;-) Having people with known backgrounds can make it clear that they really are called black. (I know some people who are identified as American Indians, but you'd have to have their BIA cards to prove it to anybody.)
There are also possibly legal issues involved in some cases. I don't know how U.S. law has evolved over the last few decades. Nor do I know how the law reads in other countries that may be involved. It used to be that if I took a picture of somebody and wanted to use it in an advertisement for a soft drink I had to get the person to sign a model release. Their image was considered their image, and I couldn't just take a snapshot of somebody and use it. I don't think people can take a picture of Colin Powell and use his picture in a car advertisement for that reason. People can take a picture of him giving a speech and publish that in the newspaper because he is a public figure and because he is doing something out in public. I'm not sure of the picture that Ms. Goldberg provided. Do we need a model release? What if it turns out she doesn't want her picture used here? (I have the same qualm about the pictures of people of different races used in the race article.)
Anyway, it is generally not considered appropriate for one to put one's own picture in an article, to push one's own book in an article, etc. P0M 02:28, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
There are no biological factors used to "define" black people besides skin pigmentation, so I've removed the mention of biology from the lead paragraph. -- Ezeu 04:37, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
The picture on top, with the caption reading "A Maasai man in Kenya" is wrong. First, she is a woman, and she's not black. Is this vandalism? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.40.85.31 ( talk • contribs) 22:00, 25 May 2007 (UTC).
WTF????? 20:01, 25 May 2007 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.228.227.239 ( talk • contribs) 22:01, 25 May 2007 (UTC).
Black people, or Black, is part of a political or historical terminology used by some cultures or nations. The classification is based on the variation in human skin color and sometimes used by a group to define another section of humanity. It has also been used by communities and individuals to identify their own ethnic backgound, especially African Americans. The validity of the term itself has been the subject of debate; opponents cite the extremely low genetic diversity of the human race, others identify it as a unifying concept for discriminated cultures or communities. The term was notably influential in the United States of America, appearing in laws and censuses during the history of that nation, and maintaining currency in academic discussion and the published media. The apartheid era of South African history identified people of African birth and ethnicity as Black and indigenous inhabitants of Australia, India and elsewhere were sometimes informally or offensively described in this way.
The sociological classification of 'black people' can be a complex intermingling of historical, cultural and familial circumstances; it has, however, been widely used in the reduction or removal of rights and other discrimination in of some nations's past. In the english speaking world, the term is also associated with policies in former colonies, Australia, South Africa and the U.S., during the eighteenth and nineteenth century. In european countries such as Spain, France and Germany, it can refer to an ethnic group whose more recent origin may be the african continent. A contrasting term, white people, refers to those whose ethnicity is mostly northern european; a group whose skin often had lower levels of melanin than other ethnic groups with a greater diversity of skin colour.
Black is a racial, political, sociological or cultural classification of people. ["is"=absolute: actually a highly subjective and contested classification] No people are literally colored black [OK ... !?], but many people who have dark skin color are considered to be. [How? and by whom?]
Some assert that only people of relatively recent African descent are black, while others argue that black may refer to individuals with dark skin color regardless of ethnic origin. [and many others do not consider this a practical distinction. Why is determination of this important and how is it done.] [3][this is commentary not a reference] [4][this is an online dictionary, not a pertinent ref]
The lead can be modified. but anything in the lead that mentions discrimination, racism or colonialization is POV. Black people existed long before these concepts came into being.
Muntuwandi
17:02, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
This argument of black being imposed on by whites is condescending because it implies that the poor blacks cannot even name themselves and they had to wait for europeans to come and give them a derogatory name. As you have read from the article blacks have chosen terms for themselves. First they called themselves Africans, meanwhile whites had used all kinds of derogatory names, but they chose Africans. In 1835 they then chose for themselves the word Negro and colored. Whites conformed to their preferences for formal use because lincoln uses the terms colored. After the civil rights era blacks chose the word "black". They could have chosen any other color but they chose black. So this implying that whites imposed the word when as you can see several times blacks chose a term for themselves, if they didn't like it, they could have chosen something else. Muntuwandi 18:28, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
there is no need to have a category of mixed ancestry because it is too ambiguous. where will one draw the line to say who is mixed and who is not. The category should be possibly even deleted. Muntuwandi 13:03, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
I think the article would be better entitled 'Capoid and/or Congoid because it's speaks of characteristics associated with a more monolithic group/stock of people as opposed to a group classified under social racial implications. Furthermore, Blacks of the world are more aesthetically diverse than what the article indicates. It feeds into stereotypes. Relir 21:55, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
I commented out the section. It is poorly written, and the refs are in Portuguese. My Portuguese is very limited, but I think this test was done on a few famous people. Anyway, isn't it commonly known that people of Brazil are of mixed race? I just didn't want the article to get out of hand. Hopefully someone more knowledgeable can make a decision about this. Possible re-word and translation. Thanks. - Jeeny Talk 00:14, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
BBC's study did not analise only famous Afro-Brazilians. They analised the
DNA of 120 self-reported Blacks from São Paulo. The study was made analising these people's Y chromosome (which comes from the father) and the Mitocondrial DNA (which comes from the mother). If you analised both, they can give you the percentage of European, Amerindian and African ancestors you have. It is a serious study.
I stil do not understand why the user Jeeny erased my contributions without asking me about it first. It is a serious study and should not be erased. Opinoso 16:56, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
“ | A recente genetic study made for BBC Brasil in Black Brazilians' DNA found an interesting fact about their ancestry: most Afro-Brazilians are mostly of European ancestry. The study analised the Mitochondrial genome of 120 self-reported Blacks from São Paulo.[2] The study was made analising these people's Y chromosome (which comes from the father) and the Mitochondrial DNA (which comes from the mother). If you analise both, they can give you the percentage of how much European, Amerindian and/or African genes a person has.
50% of self-reported Black Brazilians are, in fact, of mostly European ancestry. Only 48% of them have more African ancestors than European ones. 1.6% are of mostly Amerindian ancestry.[3] This study confirmed the great miscegenation in Brazil's History: White people largely mixed with Blacks and Indians. |
” |
Firstly it says if you analyze y chromosome and mitochondrial DNA(mtDNA) then you can tell how much admixture a person has. This is incorrect. for example if you follow your family tree up 10 generations(approx 220 years) you will have 1024 ancestors. If by chance the one ancestor who gives you your Y chromosome was of a different race and the other 1023 were of the same race then your y chromosome will be characteristic of a different race even though the other 1023 ancestors will contribute to your physical appearance. thus your admixture will be 1/1024 only. this is because the y chromosome is very small and has very few genes. The only genes it has are the ones that make a person male. Females live without a y chromosome, but males have one X chromosome because that is where the important genes are.
The same with Mitochondrial DNA. It contributes nothing whatsoever to a persons physical appearance. the mitochondria live outside the nucleus and is involved in energy production not in transmitting hereditory information. For a detailed explanation see Recent single-origin hypothesis#Genetics.
The same study was done in Europe which found that a small but significant number of white europeans had Sub-saharan mtDNA or y chromosomes. In portugal almost 4% had mtDNA from africa, Germany 1%, england 0.4%, france 3%. see Sub-Saharan DNA admixture in Europe. I am also sure that if the study was carried out amongst white brazilians there will be a significant amount of African haplotypes too
“ | Essa análise revelou que, por parte de mãe, 102 (85%) dos 120 estudados têm conjuntos de seqüências genéticas (haplogrupos) tipicamente africanos. | ” |
85 % in the study had african haplogroups. Muntuwandi 06:46, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
Once again, the references are still in portuguese. Additionally a consensus was reached that the section shouldn't be added. And at this point a fart in the wind would gain more notice than WP:3RR. CJ 02:24, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
Is there really any point to using an euphamism. I'd prefer to call a spade a spade for clarity and understanding. Aside from that, forced migration means something different than Atlantic slave trade. Firstly, forced migration is just moving people from one place to another. It doesn't say what happens to them when they get there, just that they were forced to move. Saying Atlantic slave trade is clear that we're talking about that specific group of events and not just that people were forced to move, but were pressed into slavery. CJ 14:32, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
there is a dispute on whether Admixture testing can work on Native Americans since they share common haplogroups with Asian populations at Talk:Race_and_genetics#Admixture_studies_in_latin_america
Muntuwandi 00:25, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
There use to be a section which discussed issues with the term black, it had a quote by Diop etc. Can someone put it back because as a reader i would like to get immediately to all opposition.-- RastaRule 13:22, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
Just a tentative suggestion for organising and globalising this article: How about we take a look at the various conceptions of what we mean by 'black', and then structure the article from the general to the specific? As it is, the article dives almost straight away into 'black as African descent'. While this is almost certainly the majority usage worldwide, it misses what I feel are some important points to make.
Firstly—this is just my perspective, so the anthropologists and sociologists here can correct me—'black' at its most general is grounded in the efforts of the lighter-skinned Europeans to characterise the peoples they came into contact with. As such, Australian Aborigines (for instance) are no less 'black' (not just in terms of skin colour, but in terms of being described thus upon European contact) than black Africans.
Secondly, by concentrating on an African-descent definition of 'black', the article implies at times that other people aren't 'really' black, or aren't often called black. Using Aborigines as an example again, they most certainly are called 'black'… in Australia. Globally, it's a minority usage (maybe because there's no Aboriginal diaspora to speak of?) But that in itself doesn't mean it's unimportant, encyclopaedically; and the parallels between usages of the 'black' description for different groups are notable. (For instance, the question of 'Is "black" an acceptable description?' is just as significant in Australia with Aborigines as it is elsewhere with Africans.)
So essentially what I'm advocating is that the article should first treat the different groups identified as 'black', and the history of and parallels between those usages, then perhaps move on to 'black as African descent', being the majority usage. -- Perey 05:13, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
To be objective and neutral, we must accept that black is a "human" concept first, and then debate whether it's an African "only" concept or not. It seems that Tamils and other "non Africans" are ok with being called Black when they are not mistaken for Africans. For Wikipedia to encourage the exclusion of Tamils and other non-Africans is simply to reinforce the bias and prejudice called "negrophobia" or "afrophobia". Think about how someone mentioned that the "reason" why they took the mention of Tamils off (which has been a very well established contribution over the months) is simply because some people "didn't like it". Shall we take off scientific evidence of the old age of the universe just because million creationists don't like it? Of course not. The "Tamil argument" has already been established to include them under the definition of Black because their skin color is as dark as the average "black" person from Africa. Whatever Genetic changes occurred over time, it did not cause their skin to get light. Since they reasonably acknowledge they are black (when the thought of Africans does not come to mind), then we are to address the negrophobia that comes from some black people not wanting to be associated with Africans. It is obvious by now that much of this recurring and redundant debate on this discussion page is due to negrophobia. Or shall we just call my comment "race baiting"? - The Dreaded Pirate Osirica.
I've talked to people all over the world, told them about this Wikipedia entry, so regardless of how my own personal contributions are censored, the influence and position that I represent will not (and has not) been muted nor diminished. Sorry Eurocentricists, you're only bringing more attention to the article by your attempts. No one in their right mind believes that "true blacks" come from historical Africans only. Those that do are either those of Nazi/Eurocentric philosophy or the purely reactionary and ignorant "opposites" who represent the so-called extreme Afrocentricist philosophy. - Osirica
A while back I removed Image:Sadat5.jpg, with caption "The mother of Anwar Sadat, Egypt's third President, was Sudanese" from the page [13]. Considering that the caption was about his mother but the picture was of him, I didn't see anything particularly illustrative about the image and removed it. While I was later reverted by someone probably wikistalking me [14], I still don't think the picture is adding anything to the article so I am going to remove it again.
I'm placing this note on the talk page just to open a space for discussion in case anybody cares, but again, I don't see any real reason this removal should be controversial. Just giving you all a heads up. Thanks. The Behnam 22:24, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
I have a problem with the term 'Anglo' being used as it is quite misunderstood and misused in alot of contexts, if it weren't for popular belief the term probably would not be used in this article. Would it be ok to remove the word from the article ? Gazh 08:46, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
Vmrgrsergrthere is a procedure that must be fulfilled if an image is to be used on wikipedia. See Wikipedia:Image use policy. Muntuwandi 20:57, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
He looks like N!xau. Can anyone confirm whether it's him? It would certainly be better to identify the person by name if known. -- Scottandrewhutchins 16:19, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
I think it would be better if the first image in the article, Image:Afro diversity.jpg, identified the four people by their ethnicity, as opposed to country of origin, because ethnicities stretch across national boundaries. I know the woman at bottom right is Masai, but the others I can't identify. Can someone help with this? Picaroon (Talk) 02:35, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
There are some unsourced statements about South and Southeast Asians being included in the category by "some people". No references are cited, but User:Yom says it was the definition "agreed upon" on the talk page. I should perhaps be reminding everyone that wikipedia is not a place for "agreeing upon" definitions. Only content that can be cited from notable sources is added to wikipedia. If there are sufficient number of notable sources with this definition, we can definitely put it here, but otherwise it would be removed as Original research. As of now, not even a single source is cited, even of dubious notability. The "source" cited clearly restricts the term to "Africa, Oceania, and Australia." If there are certain tribes that have been included in the category by anthropologists, this information has to be sourced. [15] deeptrivia ( talk) 13:48, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
This article is reckless in the use of vagues terms, such as the title, and presenting it as a qualifiable or quantifiable fact. It is a term of self identification (a belief) or an instrument of oppression, these are the only things for which there is a high degree of verifiability through extensive references. It should not become another garden for 'fringe research' that cites nothing later than Linnaeus, a man who gave a taxon to mythical creatures. At best the article is a hodge podge of factoids, at worst it is another platform for bigotry. The term and article is flawed and hopelessly subjective, it needs to be given a sound defintion to expand on, for goodness sake, the first line puts the page title as Black. I suppose it is assumed that the reader will 'know who we mean'. Fred ☻ 14:32, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
This was one of the earlier articles I ever tried to help with. I gave up in disgust after a while. Many others have given up as well, I notice. The difficulty is that a certain cabal of editors feel that they WP:OWN this article, and use the "race card" to do so. This is particularly funny since none of us knows for sure what "race" any of the rest of us are. What I find disturbing is:
The term "black people" is interesting, because it means different things to different people, at different times, and in different places. And what is even stranger is that there is no such thing as a "black person", strictly speaking. And there are lots of examples where the shade of the skin is uncorrelated with the classification as "black". However, as long as this topic is so fraught with political and racial tensions, this article will continue to be essentially worthless, while a small group proudly struts around protecting their "prize".-- Filll 15:04, 21 July 2007 (UTC)