![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 10 external links on Black metal. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 21:09, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
I think post-black metal should have it's own page. Blackgaze has it's own page which is great, so I think post-black metal should have a page too to provide context for genres like blackgaze. Currently, Post-Black metal and Post-Black Metal redirect to here in the stylistic section, and Post-black metal redirects to blackgaze. This should be distinguished, as it has plenty of coverage ( [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9], as well as others). I think black metal fans and people that don't know anything about black metal would appreciate this page. Thoughts? SuperLuigi22 ( talk| contribs) 23:35, 22 November 2017 (UTC)
@ SuperLuigi22 now that it has been added do you believe post-black metal should be a subgenre of Black Metal as it is a more experimental form of Black Metal or should it be added as a fusion genre as it fuses Black Metal with Post-metal? Dekai Averett ( talk) 01:36, 5 January 2018 (UTC)
The stylist divisions section of this article gives a list of genres such as Blackgaze or Death 'N' Roll. While some of the styles of Black Metal may not be in severe need of an article I would suggest we have a new article about the genre called, "Melodic Black/Death". That particular style is one that I think could be further elaborated in another page, including it's history and a list of bands that practice it. Having another article mentioning the history, musical characteristics of genre as well as the sort of bands that play them would be very useful. The fusion called, "Melodic Black/Death" is quite a popular style yet the inclusion the word "melodic" could do with more elaboration, as the style Melodic Black/Death has taken a life of it's own and is very popular. Think about portal for instance. Don't expect me to do it, I'm not to blame for inserting Melodic Black/Death in this article. Btw, if you don't think Melodic Black Metal is a valid genre then you're wrong, we have a page for Melodic Death metal, so don't be so cruel as to not include Melodic Black Metal.
Melodic Black Metal is Black Metal featuring guitar solos and standard song structures in order to create a greater melody. Go a bit more in depth about how the drumming and guitar techniques regarding Black Metal. There are plenty of sites with articles that go into depth about Black Metal, including the key changes involved as well as the time signatures used. A lot of them will site Melodic Black Metal as a valid genre. It would be good to cite and reference them.
I agree that we don't have sufficient evidence to include an article for Melodic Black Metal, but that doesn't change the fact that we could do with another section within this article explaining the use of guitar solos within Black Metal. This article seems a bit outdated when it says that Black Metal rarely uses guitar solos. This no longer applies as much as it did during the 80's and 90's. Even Freezing Moon by Mayhem featured a guitar solo and that was out during the 90's.
@ Asarlaí: It is fine the way it is, your added paragraph was good, but NSBM and RABM are good enough now. ~SML • TP 01:04, 25 July 2018 (UTC)
@ Asarlaí: I don't think that having subsections inside the politics subsection goes against what you proposed. The appearence on the page stays similar to what you proposed, so I don't see how this presents as a problem. ABC paulista ( talk) 16:35, 13 August 2018 (UTC)
If it is an umbrella term, then it shouldn’t be listed a subgenre. They are not the same. ~SML • TP 18:37, 6 October 2018 (UTC) @ ABC paulista: ~SML • TP 18:38, 6 October 2018 (UTC)
Pagan metal and Viking metal are subgenres of folk black metal, but they’re unsourced I think. ABC paulista, you may want to put a source there, because if it isn’t, it would fall under original reasearch. ~SML • TP 15:04, 7 October 2018 (UTC)
You also need to put citations saying that they’re as related they are. ~SML • TP 16:19, 7 October 2018 (UTC)
So I went there and changed to see how it goes. I still think that the differentiation part could be trimmed even more. ABC paulista ( talk) 19:47, 7 October 2018 (UTC)
kvlt redirects to black metal - that might be a good thing in itself, were it not for this page not mentioning kvlt anywhere. Dr. Azrael Tod ( talk) 14:07, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
Why is it named that way? Atmospheric black metal is more commonly used. ~SML • TP 22:29, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
@ Yamatograd:@ ABC paulista: I found a book source that says ambient black metal is different from atmospheric black metal. [10]
References
Why even bother with this wikipedia for definition of genres, @ Sixty Minute Limit:? Metal-archives is extremely more reliable than this nonsense, you won't find ambient black metal attached to Wolves in the Throne Room or Agalloch there, this page is just the interpretation of a couple of people. @ ABC paulista: Ambient Black Metal is, get this, a fusion of Ambient music and Black Metal, nothing to do with WitTR or Agalloch. Try the album 'Wonder' by Lustre or 'Summer' by Nebula Orionis or even Basarabian Hills and so on. It's basically a sub-genre of Atmospheric Black Metal where the Synths/Keys are the prominent part of the genre. Like already mentioned that source you provided was lifted from an article written by Wikipedians where the bands used as an example aren't Ambient Black Metal. And I know you lifted the description for this Wikipedia page from the 'Atmospheric Black Metal' tag on Last.fm and re-labelled it 'Ambient Black Metal'. The two aren't interchangeable. Spacepd'h777 ( talk) 17:49, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
We can use Patrick Winston's text analyzing techniques and ask the views of blackster musicians and fans.
Most (not-all) black metal bands are antichristian.
A lot of black metal bands support the political right but less when compared to the percentage of those who support antichristianity. This according to their recorded opinions and lyrics. Also the level of connection to the right isn't as explicit; for example many band are very descriptive when they express antichristianity, and sometimes merely historical when describing Nazism. (Specifics do matter in the hierarchy of values. Also statistics is based on measurement; not in persuasion.)
Most right wing political parties and far right which have enough strength to be parliamentarily represented / elected are Christians.
Values are ordered hierarchically. Usually one value has to be compromised if we really have a superior goal (antichristianity).
Otherwise we boost the tendencies of the majority (Christianity).
Pagan and non-theist / Nietzschean far right groups do exist, but they don't attracte enough supporters ever to be elected, or even if they're elected to be part of a government.
Even the non-christian rightists, they boost the overall rightist movement. The general public doesn't see Christianity threatened by the far right, but from Muslim immigrants.
This is a major issue in black metal.
This: antichristianity vs Christian hypernymous political groupings — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:2149:8266:AA00:1D2F:CD04:7DB:3621 ( talk) 14:36, 25 September 2019 (UTC)
This band has been around for quite some time and deserves a mention, they've been around since the early 2000's. https://shaytanproductions.com/al-namrood — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:8803:7A86:A400:0:0:0:1226 ( talk) 15:44, 10 April 2020 (UTC)
Putting peste noire as left-wing is not understanding what anarchism is; national anarchism is just right wing — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.40.230.48 ( talk) 17:56, 9 January 2020 (UTC)
The article stated: The use of corpse paint in the black metal imagery was mainly influenced by the American 1970s rock band Kiss.<ref name="Patterson, Dayal 2013. pp. 1-5"/> I would love to know why this source is considered to be reliable by Wikipedia standards. -- Zz ( talk) 23:38, 20 March 2019 (UTC)
"The fact that so many bands have adopted an appearance similar to the demonically face-painted and blood-spitting Gene Simmons suggests (!!!) at least an underlying (!!!) influence, even if it's simply a trickle-down consequence (!!!) of eighties groups such as Mercyful Fate."
Fore one that cannot used to source 'The use of corpse paint in the black metal imagery was mainly (!!!) influenced by the American 1970s rock band Kiss.' because, for for the umpteenth time, this isn't what the source says. Second, it's a passing thought by some random author -who underlines himself that this is his own conjecture- which is directly contradicted by the Mayhem (the originator of the concept) interview, which directly and literally tells you it was imitating a - as the name says - corpse. At no point does Hellhammer make any reference to KISS, or even Mercyful Fate. The quoted section further refers to corpse paint looking like Gene Simmons. While there are a few rare (!) exemptions which are at least somewhat similar to Gene Simmons, this is certainly not true for the original (80's era) corpse paint of Mayhem (
original corpse paint of Dead, clearly showing an imitation of a corpse's blood trickle) nor for early adopters like
Hellhammer or
Sarcófago, who were not even using white make-up for most of the time and clearly imitate the same corpse blood trickles as Dead. At no point has any of you provided any source proving that any make-up prior to Dead is considered corpse paint, which you need to stop conflating with just any stage make-up; the origins of corpse paint as a part of black metal culture and the imitation of a corpse are clearly stated by Hellhammer in the interview. Of course all of these arguments are superfluous as the source by Patterson simply doesn't say what the section says. Consensus or not, Wikipedia is Not A Democracy, and a majority of 2:1 wanting to keep a line doesn't make it supported by a source. Further, nobody to this point has contested the section I added, with two sources, so I don't see why it keeps getting removed. The edit war is on your side in that regard. ps.: it explicitly states that he wasn't the first person to use it overall. (Quote Richard BB) isn't in the interview in any way shape or form, where are you taking that from?
Korn (
talk)
07:20, 9 June 2020 (UTC)Firstly, the edit war isn't from us -- we're maintaining the status quo until the debate is resolved. Please see WP:3RR, which you're close to infringing on. Let's talk out the issue here and reach a consensus before we go any further, yeah? As Paulista said above, WP:BRD means we're now at the discussion phase, so let's just leave it at that -- I'd hate to have to go to WP:ANEW with this when we can just talk.
I take a lot of the points you're saying, particularly in regards to the Patterson book. I'd like to hear Paulista's response to this given he seems to have more familiarity with the source than I do (I don't own a copy of the book). However, in response to Dead not being the first to use it -- the interview states "He was one of the first to use make-up that soon became so popular among black metal musicians" (emphasis mine), while going on to say that he was the first to use it in black metal. Yes, there is a difference between corpse paint and monochrome make up -- but as I said above, no one is claiming KISS invented it, only influenced it. However, this draws me back to my original point that I'd prefer to see what Paulista says (I'm mostly intervening to prevent an edit war). One point in question is you saying nobody is contesting your sources, which isn't the point -- the point is that there is a dispute here which I'd like to see resolved lest we engage in edit warring. You've been bold in changing the source -- and thanks for that -- but Paulista has reverted it and moved onto the discussion stage, so let's achieve a consensus together. — Richard BB 09:41, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
Agalloch and WITTR should be better mentioned in a new section for atmospheric black metal. Better examples for ambient black metal artists could be Darkspace, Paysage d'Hiver or the Filosofem album, which combine black metal with the monotony of (dark) ambient music. -- 217.239.8.69 ( talk)
What do you mean by this there are many NSbm artists! I! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:8003:554e:7801:9dde:b7f4:3b64:ae4b ( talk • contribs)
growling in black metal is wiledy used [1] [2] [3]
References
{{
cite web}}
: External link in |work=
(
help)
— Preceding unsigned comment added by GREYBOYY ( talk • contribs) 16:18, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The standalone article has severe sourcing issues. Apart from a few sources that mention "red and black metal" or "anarchist black metal" in passing, there is no in-depth coverage such that we can write a full treatment without resorting to primary sources (and that's what has happened in the article). Everything that can be reasonably sourced on this topic would easily fit within the existing RABM section of the Black metal article. czar 22:38, 29 August 2021 (UTC)
@ ABC paulista and Second Skin: We all agree that the examples are rubbish, right? Those bands do not belong to any subgenre of black metal, they are foundational "just black metal" bands. They belong to certain scenes and can be described to have a certain style using certain attributes such as "raw", occassionally, but they don't belong to the subgenre. So how about we remove the examples until we can find reliable sources for several sane examples of actual raw black metal bands. — Alalch E. 18:26, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 10 external links on Black metal. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 21:09, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
I think post-black metal should have it's own page. Blackgaze has it's own page which is great, so I think post-black metal should have a page too to provide context for genres like blackgaze. Currently, Post-Black metal and Post-Black Metal redirect to here in the stylistic section, and Post-black metal redirects to blackgaze. This should be distinguished, as it has plenty of coverage ( [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9], as well as others). I think black metal fans and people that don't know anything about black metal would appreciate this page. Thoughts? SuperLuigi22 ( talk| contribs) 23:35, 22 November 2017 (UTC)
@ SuperLuigi22 now that it has been added do you believe post-black metal should be a subgenre of Black Metal as it is a more experimental form of Black Metal or should it be added as a fusion genre as it fuses Black Metal with Post-metal? Dekai Averett ( talk) 01:36, 5 January 2018 (UTC)
The stylist divisions section of this article gives a list of genres such as Blackgaze or Death 'N' Roll. While some of the styles of Black Metal may not be in severe need of an article I would suggest we have a new article about the genre called, "Melodic Black/Death". That particular style is one that I think could be further elaborated in another page, including it's history and a list of bands that practice it. Having another article mentioning the history, musical characteristics of genre as well as the sort of bands that play them would be very useful. The fusion called, "Melodic Black/Death" is quite a popular style yet the inclusion the word "melodic" could do with more elaboration, as the style Melodic Black/Death has taken a life of it's own and is very popular. Think about portal for instance. Don't expect me to do it, I'm not to blame for inserting Melodic Black/Death in this article. Btw, if you don't think Melodic Black Metal is a valid genre then you're wrong, we have a page for Melodic Death metal, so don't be so cruel as to not include Melodic Black Metal.
Melodic Black Metal is Black Metal featuring guitar solos and standard song structures in order to create a greater melody. Go a bit more in depth about how the drumming and guitar techniques regarding Black Metal. There are plenty of sites with articles that go into depth about Black Metal, including the key changes involved as well as the time signatures used. A lot of them will site Melodic Black Metal as a valid genre. It would be good to cite and reference them.
I agree that we don't have sufficient evidence to include an article for Melodic Black Metal, but that doesn't change the fact that we could do with another section within this article explaining the use of guitar solos within Black Metal. This article seems a bit outdated when it says that Black Metal rarely uses guitar solos. This no longer applies as much as it did during the 80's and 90's. Even Freezing Moon by Mayhem featured a guitar solo and that was out during the 90's.
@ Asarlaí: It is fine the way it is, your added paragraph was good, but NSBM and RABM are good enough now. ~SML • TP 01:04, 25 July 2018 (UTC)
@ Asarlaí: I don't think that having subsections inside the politics subsection goes against what you proposed. The appearence on the page stays similar to what you proposed, so I don't see how this presents as a problem. ABC paulista ( talk) 16:35, 13 August 2018 (UTC)
If it is an umbrella term, then it shouldn’t be listed a subgenre. They are not the same. ~SML • TP 18:37, 6 October 2018 (UTC) @ ABC paulista: ~SML • TP 18:38, 6 October 2018 (UTC)
Pagan metal and Viking metal are subgenres of folk black metal, but they’re unsourced I think. ABC paulista, you may want to put a source there, because if it isn’t, it would fall under original reasearch. ~SML • TP 15:04, 7 October 2018 (UTC)
You also need to put citations saying that they’re as related they are. ~SML • TP 16:19, 7 October 2018 (UTC)
So I went there and changed to see how it goes. I still think that the differentiation part could be trimmed even more. ABC paulista ( talk) 19:47, 7 October 2018 (UTC)
kvlt redirects to black metal - that might be a good thing in itself, were it not for this page not mentioning kvlt anywhere. Dr. Azrael Tod ( talk) 14:07, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
Why is it named that way? Atmospheric black metal is more commonly used. ~SML • TP 22:29, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
@ Yamatograd:@ ABC paulista: I found a book source that says ambient black metal is different from atmospheric black metal. [10]
References
Why even bother with this wikipedia for definition of genres, @ Sixty Minute Limit:? Metal-archives is extremely more reliable than this nonsense, you won't find ambient black metal attached to Wolves in the Throne Room or Agalloch there, this page is just the interpretation of a couple of people. @ ABC paulista: Ambient Black Metal is, get this, a fusion of Ambient music and Black Metal, nothing to do with WitTR or Agalloch. Try the album 'Wonder' by Lustre or 'Summer' by Nebula Orionis or even Basarabian Hills and so on. It's basically a sub-genre of Atmospheric Black Metal where the Synths/Keys are the prominent part of the genre. Like already mentioned that source you provided was lifted from an article written by Wikipedians where the bands used as an example aren't Ambient Black Metal. And I know you lifted the description for this Wikipedia page from the 'Atmospheric Black Metal' tag on Last.fm and re-labelled it 'Ambient Black Metal'. The two aren't interchangeable. Spacepd'h777 ( talk) 17:49, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
We can use Patrick Winston's text analyzing techniques and ask the views of blackster musicians and fans.
Most (not-all) black metal bands are antichristian.
A lot of black metal bands support the political right but less when compared to the percentage of those who support antichristianity. This according to their recorded opinions and lyrics. Also the level of connection to the right isn't as explicit; for example many band are very descriptive when they express antichristianity, and sometimes merely historical when describing Nazism. (Specifics do matter in the hierarchy of values. Also statistics is based on measurement; not in persuasion.)
Most right wing political parties and far right which have enough strength to be parliamentarily represented / elected are Christians.
Values are ordered hierarchically. Usually one value has to be compromised if we really have a superior goal (antichristianity).
Otherwise we boost the tendencies of the majority (Christianity).
Pagan and non-theist / Nietzschean far right groups do exist, but they don't attracte enough supporters ever to be elected, or even if they're elected to be part of a government.
Even the non-christian rightists, they boost the overall rightist movement. The general public doesn't see Christianity threatened by the far right, but from Muslim immigrants.
This is a major issue in black metal.
This: antichristianity vs Christian hypernymous political groupings — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:2149:8266:AA00:1D2F:CD04:7DB:3621 ( talk) 14:36, 25 September 2019 (UTC)
This band has been around for quite some time and deserves a mention, they've been around since the early 2000's. https://shaytanproductions.com/al-namrood — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:8803:7A86:A400:0:0:0:1226 ( talk) 15:44, 10 April 2020 (UTC)
Putting peste noire as left-wing is not understanding what anarchism is; national anarchism is just right wing — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.40.230.48 ( talk) 17:56, 9 January 2020 (UTC)
The article stated: The use of corpse paint in the black metal imagery was mainly influenced by the American 1970s rock band Kiss.<ref name="Patterson, Dayal 2013. pp. 1-5"/> I would love to know why this source is considered to be reliable by Wikipedia standards. -- Zz ( talk) 23:38, 20 March 2019 (UTC)
"The fact that so many bands have adopted an appearance similar to the demonically face-painted and blood-spitting Gene Simmons suggests (!!!) at least an underlying (!!!) influence, even if it's simply a trickle-down consequence (!!!) of eighties groups such as Mercyful Fate."
Fore one that cannot used to source 'The use of corpse paint in the black metal imagery was mainly (!!!) influenced by the American 1970s rock band Kiss.' because, for for the umpteenth time, this isn't what the source says. Second, it's a passing thought by some random author -who underlines himself that this is his own conjecture- which is directly contradicted by the Mayhem (the originator of the concept) interview, which directly and literally tells you it was imitating a - as the name says - corpse. At no point does Hellhammer make any reference to KISS, or even Mercyful Fate. The quoted section further refers to corpse paint looking like Gene Simmons. While there are a few rare (!) exemptions which are at least somewhat similar to Gene Simmons, this is certainly not true for the original (80's era) corpse paint of Mayhem (
original corpse paint of Dead, clearly showing an imitation of a corpse's blood trickle) nor for early adopters like
Hellhammer or
Sarcófago, who were not even using white make-up for most of the time and clearly imitate the same corpse blood trickles as Dead. At no point has any of you provided any source proving that any make-up prior to Dead is considered corpse paint, which you need to stop conflating with just any stage make-up; the origins of corpse paint as a part of black metal culture and the imitation of a corpse are clearly stated by Hellhammer in the interview. Of course all of these arguments are superfluous as the source by Patterson simply doesn't say what the section says. Consensus or not, Wikipedia is Not A Democracy, and a majority of 2:1 wanting to keep a line doesn't make it supported by a source. Further, nobody to this point has contested the section I added, with two sources, so I don't see why it keeps getting removed. The edit war is on your side in that regard. ps.: it explicitly states that he wasn't the first person to use it overall. (Quote Richard BB) isn't in the interview in any way shape or form, where are you taking that from?
Korn (
talk)
07:20, 9 June 2020 (UTC)Firstly, the edit war isn't from us -- we're maintaining the status quo until the debate is resolved. Please see WP:3RR, which you're close to infringing on. Let's talk out the issue here and reach a consensus before we go any further, yeah? As Paulista said above, WP:BRD means we're now at the discussion phase, so let's just leave it at that -- I'd hate to have to go to WP:ANEW with this when we can just talk.
I take a lot of the points you're saying, particularly in regards to the Patterson book. I'd like to hear Paulista's response to this given he seems to have more familiarity with the source than I do (I don't own a copy of the book). However, in response to Dead not being the first to use it -- the interview states "He was one of the first to use make-up that soon became so popular among black metal musicians" (emphasis mine), while going on to say that he was the first to use it in black metal. Yes, there is a difference between corpse paint and monochrome make up -- but as I said above, no one is claiming KISS invented it, only influenced it. However, this draws me back to my original point that I'd prefer to see what Paulista says (I'm mostly intervening to prevent an edit war). One point in question is you saying nobody is contesting your sources, which isn't the point -- the point is that there is a dispute here which I'd like to see resolved lest we engage in edit warring. You've been bold in changing the source -- and thanks for that -- but Paulista has reverted it and moved onto the discussion stage, so let's achieve a consensus together. — Richard BB 09:41, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
Agalloch and WITTR should be better mentioned in a new section for atmospheric black metal. Better examples for ambient black metal artists could be Darkspace, Paysage d'Hiver or the Filosofem album, which combine black metal with the monotony of (dark) ambient music. -- 217.239.8.69 ( talk)
What do you mean by this there are many NSbm artists! I! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:8003:554e:7801:9dde:b7f4:3b64:ae4b ( talk • contribs)
growling in black metal is wiledy used [1] [2] [3]
References
{{
cite web}}
: External link in |work=
(
help)
— Preceding unsigned comment added by GREYBOYY ( talk • contribs) 16:18, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The standalone article has severe sourcing issues. Apart from a few sources that mention "red and black metal" or "anarchist black metal" in passing, there is no in-depth coverage such that we can write a full treatment without resorting to primary sources (and that's what has happened in the article). Everything that can be reasonably sourced on this topic would easily fit within the existing RABM section of the Black metal article. czar 22:38, 29 August 2021 (UTC)
@ ABC paulista and Second Skin: We all agree that the examples are rubbish, right? Those bands do not belong to any subgenre of black metal, they are foundational "just black metal" bands. They belong to certain scenes and can be described to have a certain style using certain attributes such as "raw", occassionally, but they don't belong to the subgenre. So how about we remove the examples until we can find reliable sources for several sane examples of actual raw black metal bands. — Alalch E. 18:26, 12 March 2023 (UTC)