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According to Wikipedia, "A social movement is a loosely organized effort by a large group of people to achieve a particular goal, typically a social or political one".
The title of the Wikipedia article about "Black Lives Matter" should be changed to "Black Lives Matter (social movement)". Then, within that article, the organizations participating in the movement can be identified and described. This structure will help readers to understand that "Black Lives Matter" is a social movement (not an organization) and that many different organization are participating in the movement. Scott Gregory Beach ( talk) 23:59, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
Carole: Searching the United States "Trademark Electronic Search System" for the words "Black Lives Matter" yields a list that includes 28 records. One of those records has the "Serial Number 88958933" The record shows that the owner is "Fisher, Haig INDIVIDUAL UNITED STATES 315 Meigs Rd. #A-281 Santa Barbara CALIFORNIA 93109". The "Goods and Services" section of the record reads "IC 035. US 100 101 102. G & S: Political party services, namely, promoting the interests of a political organization; Providing a website featuring information about political issues; Providing information regarding political issues, knowing how to vote and knowing how to register to vote; Providing information, news, and commentary in the field of politics".
At this point, I believe that there is no person or organization that has the exclusive right to use the name "Black Lives Matter".
Yes, "The social media hashtag #BlackLivesMatter led to the movement and legal entity / foundation". But there is not just one legal entity that uses "Black Lives Matter" in its name. There are 4 Delaware corporations and 3 California corporations that have the words "Black Lives Matter" in their names and probably many more in other states and provinces and other jurisdictions.
The article currently reads, in part: An organization known simply as "Black Lives Matter" exists as a decentralized network with over 30 chapters worldwide". That statement is not true. The corporation named "Black Lives Matter Global Network Foundation, Inc." has a website and numerous "chapters". That corporation may sometimes use "Black Lives Matter" as an abbreviation of its full, legal name but that usage not does legally change its name to "simply" Black Lives Matter. To legally change its name it would have to adopt and file an amendment to its articles of incorporation.
Adding "(social movement)" to the title of the article would not be necessary if the first paragraph of the article defined Black Lives Matter as a "social movement" and states that many organizations use the words "Black Lives Matter" in their full names.
Scott Gregory Beach ( talk) 14:33, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
I have drafted a new introductory paragraph for the BLM article. Please note that my draft defines BLM as a " social movement" and that it refers to BLM organizations as " social movement organizations".
Black Lives Matter (BLM) is a social movement. The primary goal of the movement is to stop unjust killings by police officers. The members of the BLM movement publicly protest against alleged acts of police brutality on Afro-American people and they sometimes block public roadways as a means of drawing attention to their protests. [1] The members of the movement have established several social movement organizations, including Black Lives Matter Sacramento, [2] Black Lives Matter Vancouver Wa, [3] Black Lives Matter Global Network, Inc. [4] and many others.
Scott Gregory Beach ( talk) 17:00, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
References
The Funding section claims "Black Lives Matter have received over $100 million in funding from the Open Society Foundations, Ford Foundation and Borealis Philanthropy among others.[70][71] In addition, the Black Lives Matter Movement has received support from organizations and foundations like the Black Youth Project 100, the Black Civic Engagement Fund, the Center for Popular Democracy, Color of Change and the Advancement Project.[72]"
This seems very poorly sourced. The 2016 Washington Times article which claims "Black Lives Matter is increasingly awash in cash, raking in pledges of more than $100 million" appears to confuse Black Lives Matter with Movement for Black Lives. It also claims the Soros foundation gave $33 million to BLM, which has been fact checked by Snopes and found to be the total donated by OSF to all organisations with even the most tangential of connections to the Ferguson protests. The Politico article "major donors consider funding black lives matter" doesn't mention any figures at all.
At the very least, it needs clarification of what is meant by 'Black Lives Matter' in the context of funding - namely dozens of different organisations involved in racial equality and justice in some way.
The most recent tax filing I can find for the Black Lives Matter Foundation (the organisation rather than the broader movement) is from 2017 and is for $279,109. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nephtys84 ( talk • contribs) 08:36, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
Ford Foundation claims to fund "Movement for Black Lives" (aka M4BL) on its own website. This link also confirms the funding from Borealis Philanthropy:
"Movement for Black Lives" is NOT in fact separate from BLM. M4BL is a coalition of groups which includes BLM ( /info/en/?search=Movement_for_Black_Lives https://web.archive.org/web/20190502120213/https://policy.m4bl.org/about/)
From Borealis Philanthropy, we see a quote from a senior member of Open Society Foundations which confirms their support for M4BL (and hence BLM):
“We are proud to be a BLMF donor in this important political moment because supporting the Movement for Black Lives (M4BL) is what will make long-lasting, systemic change possible,” said Alvin Starks, Senior Program Officer with the equality team of the Open Society Foundations’ U.S. Programs.
https://borealisphilanthropy.org/black-led-movement-fund-2018-grantees-focus-on-cross-movement-collaboration/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.247.111.114 ( talk) 00:00, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
Possible section on Bubba Wallace incident. [2] It will provide better context to the race relations tensions. It has also been one of the victories of BLM to remove the racist confederate flag from nascar.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Ice fly editor ( talk • contribs)
References
In the subsection 'Police use of excessive force', the numbers for 2019 are not accurate. Currently, it says: "In 2019, police officers shot and killed 1,001 people. About half of those killed were white, and one quarter were black.[86][87]"
It cites two sources, statista.com, [87] and WP [86]. However, following the link provided, statista gives different numbers for 2019: 1004 were killed, of whom 370 (37%) were white, and 235 (23%) were black. According to WP, the numbers for 2019 are as follows: 999 killings, of whom 403 were white (40%), 250 were black (25%). So I think that it would be better to say: "In 2019, police officers shot and killed about 1,000 people. About 40% of those killed were white, and one quarter were black.[86][87]"
Also, the following WP quote is, while technically true, less informative than it could be. It currently says that "The rate at which black Americans are killed by police is more than twice as high as the rate for white Americans." The rate for white people is 13/1m and for black people 31/1m. That is nearly three times higher. To make an analogy: If I consider buying a car, and model A has a price tag of $25k, model B of 95k, then yes, model B is 'more than twice as expensive' than model A. It is also 'more than three times as expensive' than model A. However, the most informative thing to say would be to say that it is 'almost more than four times as expensive' than model A. So I think it would be better to say that: "The rate at which black Americans are killed by police is nearly three times as high as the rate for white Americans." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:16b8:3128:300:39c1:36df:7a52:2b5d ( talk • contribs) 21:02, 29 June 2020 (UTC) (Please sign your comment with 4 tildes.)
Hi fellow editors. The article refers in a number of places — including in the infobox and articles such as this one — to BLM being internaional / global. That being the case, should the term "African-American" not be replaced by a term applicable to black people in other regions, such as Western Europe, where they experience similar police brutality? Rui ''Gabriel'' Correia ( talk) 08:26, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
I think it could be helpful to include some statistics that give more context on the issue of police violence toward black people in the U.S. Would it be best to include these in the Criticism section, or somewhere else? For example, according to an article in the Wall Street Journal: "In 2019 police officers fatally shot 1,004 people, most of whom were armed or otherwise dangerous. African-Americans were about a quarter of those killed by cops last year (235), a ratio that has remained stable since 2015. That share of black victims is less than what the black crime rate would predict, since police shootings are a function of how often officers encounter armed and violent suspects. In 2018, the latest year for which such data have been published, African-Americans made up 53% of known homicide offenders in the U.S. and commit about 60% of robberies, though they are 13% of the population....The police fatally shot nine unarmed blacks and 19 unarmed whites in 2019, according to a Washington Post database, down from 38 and 32, respectively, in 2015. " [1] Stonkaments ( talk) 05:20, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
References
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Black Lives Matter is a left wing, Marxist organization with radical views on society. They believe in the dismantling of the nuclear family, a concept proven to be unsuccessful in today's black communities. In addition, they want to eliminate the police and shut down all prisons. Further, BLM believes that success and hard work are "white" goals and that society should not have to follow these "white" goals. Ironically, they also bitch and moan that white people have it better so kind of a double standard. 2601:285:8200:84A0:6C67:C0E2:533C:F682 ( talk) 08:38, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
This is a pretty blatant misrepresentation of sources. For example, the first source says:
"The data is unequivocal. Police killings are a race problem: African-Americans are being killed disproportionately and by a wide margin. And police bias may be responsible."
But that is being used to insert text into the article which claims: " Sendhil Mullainathan has argued that the data does not show police racial bias is a major factor in accounting for killings of African Americans"
Mullainathan does say that there may be other factors at work, but the text that is being added is not reflective of that. Volunteer Marek 20:07, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
This does not qualify as RS. This is a non-peer reviewed working paper (though Fryer might have a published version of it). This again doesn't support the text that is being inserted. Volunteer Marek 20:12, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
And here is another problem. This, aside from being your fourth revert today, uses a false edit summary. The text is NOT "original research/biased language". It's straight from the source which says, quote: "In contrast to previous work that relied on the FBI’s Supplemental Homicide Reports that were constructed from self-reported cases of police-involved homicide, this data set is less likely to be biased by police reporting practices." Hence, the text is directly based on the source and is important because it accounts for differences with other studies. Volunteer Marek 21:10, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
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If the basis for Black Lives Matter's complaints regarding police actions against blacks and more generally, the need to rename buildings and remove monuments across America IS abuse of a MINORITY, African Americans, in America, then why do they quote Pew Research Center (a very questionable poll anyway in this case) saying that a MAJORITY of people across America support BLM? Their original premise is based on MINORITIES; it makes no sense for them to invoke MAJORITIES as supporting their actions as this seems a hypocritical reference use. LisaRudisill LisaRudisill ( talk) 13:17, 13 July 2020 (UTC)
The page reads: Black Lives Matter (BLM) is an organized movement in the United States advocating for non-violent civil disobedience in protest against incidents of police brutality against African-American people. The movement name is Black Live Matters. It's inclusive of all Black people, not only the African-American community. In fact, the movement official site reads: "Black Lives Matter Foundation, Inc is a global organization in the US, UK, and Canada, whose mission is to eradicate white supremacy and build local power to intervene in violence inflicted on Black communities by the state and vigilantes"
In the ABOUT page of the movement, the word African doesn't appear at all. I understand the term African-American may refer to the person's ancestry but it seems to be -I believe- incorrect in this article.
Thank you — Preceding unsigned comment added by Choma6 ( talk • contribs) 19:38, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
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Please change first sentence “BLM is is an organized movement in the United States...”
TO: “BLM is is an organized Marxist movement in the United States...”
Source: “Black Lives Matter co-founder Patrisse Cullors said in a newly surfaced video from 2015 that she and her fellow organizers are “trained Marxists” – making clear their movement’s ideological foundation, according to a report.”
NY POST, June 25, 2020, Y. Steinbuch, Black Lives Matter co-founder describes herself as ‘trained Marxist’
https://nypost.com/2020/06/25/blm-co-founder-describes-herself-as-trained-marxist/
Also 2nd Source: Patrisse herself stating trained Marxist in video embedded in Blacks and Wealth article online
https://blacksandwealth.com/2020/06/21/black-lives-matter-is-a-marxist-organization/ 66.222.102.206 ( talk) 03:43, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
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This organisation is described by many as Marxist. This is a common description by many, yet not even mentioned in the article. How come this is so? Is this a possible double standard on Wikipedia? Rudy Giuliani has among others mentioned that BLM is a Marxist organisation and there are several sources on the net that also mentionens it. - Primal Benefactor ( talk) 13:55, 4 July 2020 (UTC) — Primal Benefactor ( talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
Also, starting 1.00 minutes into the video at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgEUbSzOTZ8 , BLM co-founder Patrisse Cullors says, "We actually do have an ideological frame. Myself and Alicia in particular, we're trained organizers. We are trained Marxists. We are super versed on ideological theories." Just mentioning this for the discussion -- I haven't added anything on it to the article. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 15:30, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
BLM also has, or had until very recently, one of its stated aims on its website at the overthrow of capitalism. Which is a Marxist view. Ben Finn ( talk) 20:49, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
Also BLM’s Marxism is the subject of this article in the UK’s Telegraph newspaper, certainly reliable as journalistic sources go. Might be more of an op-ed (behind paywall) but confirms that BLM is widely regarded as Marxist. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/06/12/make-no-mistake-blm-radical-neo-marxist-political-movement/ Ben Finn ( talk) 20:55, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
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I read recently that BLM founders were well versed in understanding marxism. Despite it's statistically the older white gen guys, that are most likely to see this socialism as evil and Breitbart defintely had a field day attacking it. I have also seen quite a few opinion pieces in top leading newspapers that similarly criticises the founder's ideology. Generally attacking it by saying that Marxism stands in complete opposition to their Judeo-Christian foundation of America. And that it's atheist philosophy that attacks the "american way". It's obvious the writers are fundamental christians and they see the west as "supposed" to be christian and so they see marxism as a mortal enemy to its religion. Should we add this in to the "criticism of BLM" section or not? Some example sources - https://nypost.com/2020/06/25/blm-co-founder-describes-herself-as-trained-marxist/ https://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/jun/29/editorial-black-lives-matter-is-rooted-in-a-soulle/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/06/12/make-no-mistake-blm-radical-neo-marxist-political-movement/ P.S not that familiar in creating a new chapter in talk so sincere apologies if I actually did it improperly. MangoTareeface9 ( talk) 12:10, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
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Can you check to see if Black Lives Matter Global Network Foundation is the actual Non-Profit charity? I checked the IRS web site and there is no filing for this organization. I did find ActBlue Charities. 2601:80:4202:B7B4:ADDC:73A3:5A88:E488 ( talk) 15:06, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
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There have been a number of attempts to address violence conducted during the times of Black Lives Matter protests and they have been rejected, generally because the requests have been inappropriate or uncited.
I think it would be good to address it. At the top of the article, it says BLM is "an organized movement advocating for non-violent civil disobedience". I think the article should also state that the movement is conducted at a series of local levels, and attended by a wide body of individuals and sometimes violence become part of the protests: sometimes by police, sometimes by protesting attendees or others / opportunists. Basically, the protests have been mostly non-violent, but there have been incidents of violence, burnings, lootings - with differentiation between protestors and opportunists. I am happy to work on this, perhaps making a section for violence at BLM protests. There are tons of sources here.
The Police use of excessive force section needs a bit of work as well. Some of the information is misleading.
Any thoughts on this?– CaroleHenson ( talk) 22:23, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
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Patrisse Cullors has been on video record as saying that she and Alicia Garza are trained Marxists there is no way you can separate someones political views from their political activism and as such it's dishonest and dangerous not to include the mention of BLM as a Marxist Ideology. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgEUbSzOTZ8 For Reference. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AdvancedBarbarism ( talk • contribs)
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Anywhere the organization is listed as a movement should be changed to an organization as it is what it is, It has income, revenue and expenses. WritePeople ( talk) 02:21, 17 July 2020 (UTC)
The BLMUK gofundme page talks a lot about dismantling capitalism and imperialism, zero on police brutality. Unfortunately it's on the blacklist so no link.
The Socialist Worker's Party are out on the protests, plenty of Socialist Worker logos mixed in with BLM, eg https://socialistworker.co.uk/art/43116/Black+Lives+Matter+activists+meet+to+organise++and+discuss+strategy. You can even see a mingling of the logos on their banners.
There are various articles on how the movement has been 'hijacked' by the far left - eg https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/hard-left-hijacks-black-lives-matter-movement-lpmfn3f2j — Preceding unsigned comment added by EUBanana ( talk • contribs) 08:07, 17 July 2020 (UTC)
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An individual has contacted OTRS on VRTS ticket # 2020071810005152 asking for the following sources to be shared for possible inclusion in this article:
Best, Darren-M talk 18:16, 19 July 2020 (UTC)
I don't think anti-racist is neutral because there are some people that believe that Black Lives Matter is supposed to help blacks, but not whites hence we have All Lives Matter. Pinging @ ItsPugle: for thoughts. Interstellarity ( talk) 01:36, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
Per the cited source, the retracted study was the 2019 article in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences (PNAS), titled “Officer characteristics and racial disparities in fatal officer-involved shootings”. [7]
Is there any evidence to support the claim that the 2018 study in Social Psychological and Personality Science titled "Is There Evidence of Racial Disparity in Police Use of Deadly Force? Analyses of Officer-Involved Fatal Shootings in 2015–2016" was also retracted?
They are different studies, with different authors and different conclusions, and as far as I can tell the 2018 study was not retracted. Joseph Cesario, one of the authors of both studies, said in response to his retraction of the PNAS study: "An earlier 2019 paper of mine, which found no evidence of anti-black disparities in the likelihood of being fatally shot when controlling for crime rates, also resulted in calls for retraction and positive endorsement by prominent conservative voices, but I continue to uphold that work." [8] Stonkaments ( talk) 18:13, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
The 2019 article in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences (PNAS), titled “Officer characteristics and racial disparities in fatal officer-involved shootings,” ... have submitted a request for retraction to PNAS.
I have removed the following, inserted into the article here to this talk page section for discussion:
On July 24, 2020, the United Nations human rights department called on US security forces to limit their use of force against peaceful protesters and journalists in Portland and other US cities. The UN expressed concern about the US security forces cracking down on anti-racism protests, and stated that people have a right to protest peacefully and should not be subjected to unnecessary, disproportionate and discriminatory use of force. [1]
The insertion accurately characterizes the WAPO report. which WAPO sources to this U.N. news conference. However, it appears to me that in lifting that information out of the context of the news conference, WAPO introduced (and Wikipedia would repeat with this insertion) an invitation for readers to draw the conclusion that the call for the U.S. to limit their use of force against peaceful protesters and journalists might have been a disapprobation. It is clear from the news conference that this is not the case. The portion of the news conference of interest is about 17m18s in, with the UN spokeswoman speaking in French in response to a question posed in French. at 17m34s she switches to English and hands off to the UNHCR spokeswoman for an answer. After an introduction in French, the UNHCR spokeswoman says, "Obviously, what has been happening with regard to [protests (?)] taking place that have been making lots of the headlines, we are very much aware of that. I think what we would say is that peaceful demonstrations that have been taking place in cities in the U.S. of such importance really must be able to continue without those participating in them, and also the people reporting on them -- the journalists, risking arbitrary arrest or detention and being subject to unnecessary, disproportionate, or disciplinary use of force or suffering other violations of their rights.There have been reports that [peaceful demonstrators ...]" -- the UNHCR spokeswoman continued as reported by WAPO beginning with an uppercase P in Peaceful, and continues after the closing period inserted by WAPO to close their quotation in what was the middle of a sentence in the quoted statement. I suggest that this report, if included, be accompanied by a long enough quote from the primary source to make it clear that this is an observation that due care needs to be observed as is usual and normal in such situations and that the UNHCR spokeswoman's observation in this news conference was not a disapprobation of the U.S. by the UNHCR.
Also, separately from my comment and suggestion, I note that the UNHCR spokeswoman highlights an upcoming UNHCR general comment on the right to peaceful assembly, which is expected on 29 July; There is more information about that in the statement linked above. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 14:26, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
References
Consider listing the stated beliefs of Black Lives Matter.
The BLM website has a section entitled, "What we Believe" https://blacklivesmatter.com/what-we-believe/
The list of beliefs is similar to the Wikipedia BLM entry, "Guiding Principles", but differs. The list of beliefs is more concrete than the more amorphous list of guiding principles. One is a general overview (Principles), the other is a more distilled perspective ("What we Believe")...and more recent.
"Guiding Principles" were from 2015.
"What we Believe" is from 26 July 2020.
Many thanks for this opportunity to contribute.
Edit: I'm new here. For some reason, there is a citation from the Washington Post listed below this entry. It is not related to this particular topic and I did not place it there.
Billcorr ( talk) 19:59, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
The Criticism section is written as a dialectic. It is written in a point counter-point style which is not fitting for a section titled "Criticism" For instance, the following is not a Criticism of BLM but actually a criticism of the police "A North Carolina police chief retired after calling BLM a terrorist group.[362] A police officer in Oregon was removed from street duty following a social media post in which he said he would have to "babysit these fools", in reference to a planned BLM event.[363]" Similarly, the following is also not a criticism of BLM and is not appropriate under the criticism section "Washington Post columnist Jonathan Capehart wrote that Giuliani's comments reinforced his sense that the former mayor lives in a "racial world of make-believe".[381]" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.176.8.103 ( talk • contribs) 08:03, 29 June 2020 (UTC) (Please sign your comment with 4 tildes.)
More comments are requested at Talk:A.C.A.B.#Request for comment on text removed from ACAB article. 71.178.129.13 ( talk) 03:43, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
I'm not nearly knowledgeable enough to write this myself, but I think the article could benefit a lot from an attempt to make a coherent description of how the Black Lives Matter movement has spread outside of the US, rather than just individual countries someone has had the energy to write about. The whole is bigger than the individual pieces, so to speak. Just a few paragraphs would help, since it's not separate happenings but something taking place in a larger context. / Julle ( talk) 16:36, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
How can a good article include a banner on top stating this article is "too long", as well as an update banner, neutrality banner, and "clarification needed" tags.. Tinton5 ( talk) 06:37, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
"African-American" and "black" are not synonyms. The first sentence of the lede is incorrect because it relates BLM exclusively to African-Americans. Please change it to "black." 2A02:6B61:214E:0:CD46:F9CF:1213:F71E ( talk) 12:33, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
My removal of this section has just been reverted by Jorm, who enjoined me to first discuss this, and here I am. I believe this section, which doesn't even mention BLM, is a general expose on the topic which belongs in Police brutality in the United States. Articles on social movements such as this one are not meant to present the issues they are tackling. If this were the case, we would have to present the more general issue of racism against black people, the topic of incarceration and its links to race, and many others which the movement addresses. Clearly, this is out of scope, so we should remove the section, and provide instead a link to a dedicated article or articles such as the one mentioned above. Also, I'd like to point out that the section is the only one which doesn't focus on BLM or the reaction to it. Furthermore, the current length of the article provides additional justification for the deletion of content that doesn't focus directly on the subject matter of the article, namely the Black Lives Matter movement itself. Fa suisse ( talk) 06:15, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
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The most recent edit ( https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Black_Lives_Matter&oldid=972687061) appears to be vandalism. Could this please be reverted to the previous version ( https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Black_Lives_Matter&oldid=972586544)?
As I'm not autoconfirmed I can't make the change myself. EclipsePolenta ( talk) 11:13, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
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Why is there no mention of the fact that BLM is a Marxist/Communist Organization and is Anti-American?
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Advocates for mainly peaceful protests? This is an inaccurate statement. 2606:A000:1011:C812:3C2C:DCDB:5619:156D ( talk) 13:39, 10 September 2020 (UTC)
Hey. I think this article is confusing and lacks of citation. First paragraph says that BLM is a "decentralized movement" (without any citation confirming that) and the short description of the article says that BLM is a "social movement", but later on the article describes BLM as an international organization with own board of directors, etc. Also the article is tagged both as "too long" and as a "good article". Dinth ( talk) 07:19, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
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Please add the following statement regarding the group's stance on the nuclear family: "We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement by supporting each other as extended families and “villages” that collectively care for one another, especially our children, to the degree that mothers, parents, and children are comfortable." 2601:18D:4600:E7A0:38FB:3F53:9ED5:568B ( talk) 12:49, 23 August 2020 (UTC)
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Archive 1 | ← | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 |
According to Wikipedia, "A social movement is a loosely organized effort by a large group of people to achieve a particular goal, typically a social or political one".
The title of the Wikipedia article about "Black Lives Matter" should be changed to "Black Lives Matter (social movement)". Then, within that article, the organizations participating in the movement can be identified and described. This structure will help readers to understand that "Black Lives Matter" is a social movement (not an organization) and that many different organization are participating in the movement. Scott Gregory Beach ( talk) 23:59, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
Carole: Searching the United States "Trademark Electronic Search System" for the words "Black Lives Matter" yields a list that includes 28 records. One of those records has the "Serial Number 88958933" The record shows that the owner is "Fisher, Haig INDIVIDUAL UNITED STATES 315 Meigs Rd. #A-281 Santa Barbara CALIFORNIA 93109". The "Goods and Services" section of the record reads "IC 035. US 100 101 102. G & S: Political party services, namely, promoting the interests of a political organization; Providing a website featuring information about political issues; Providing information regarding political issues, knowing how to vote and knowing how to register to vote; Providing information, news, and commentary in the field of politics".
At this point, I believe that there is no person or organization that has the exclusive right to use the name "Black Lives Matter".
Yes, "The social media hashtag #BlackLivesMatter led to the movement and legal entity / foundation". But there is not just one legal entity that uses "Black Lives Matter" in its name. There are 4 Delaware corporations and 3 California corporations that have the words "Black Lives Matter" in their names and probably many more in other states and provinces and other jurisdictions.
The article currently reads, in part: An organization known simply as "Black Lives Matter" exists as a decentralized network with over 30 chapters worldwide". That statement is not true. The corporation named "Black Lives Matter Global Network Foundation, Inc." has a website and numerous "chapters". That corporation may sometimes use "Black Lives Matter" as an abbreviation of its full, legal name but that usage not does legally change its name to "simply" Black Lives Matter. To legally change its name it would have to adopt and file an amendment to its articles of incorporation.
Adding "(social movement)" to the title of the article would not be necessary if the first paragraph of the article defined Black Lives Matter as a "social movement" and states that many organizations use the words "Black Lives Matter" in their full names.
Scott Gregory Beach ( talk) 14:33, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
I have drafted a new introductory paragraph for the BLM article. Please note that my draft defines BLM as a " social movement" and that it refers to BLM organizations as " social movement organizations".
Black Lives Matter (BLM) is a social movement. The primary goal of the movement is to stop unjust killings by police officers. The members of the BLM movement publicly protest against alleged acts of police brutality on Afro-American people and they sometimes block public roadways as a means of drawing attention to their protests. [1] The members of the movement have established several social movement organizations, including Black Lives Matter Sacramento, [2] Black Lives Matter Vancouver Wa, [3] Black Lives Matter Global Network, Inc. [4] and many others.
Scott Gregory Beach ( talk) 17:00, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
References
The Funding section claims "Black Lives Matter have received over $100 million in funding from the Open Society Foundations, Ford Foundation and Borealis Philanthropy among others.[70][71] In addition, the Black Lives Matter Movement has received support from organizations and foundations like the Black Youth Project 100, the Black Civic Engagement Fund, the Center for Popular Democracy, Color of Change and the Advancement Project.[72]"
This seems very poorly sourced. The 2016 Washington Times article which claims "Black Lives Matter is increasingly awash in cash, raking in pledges of more than $100 million" appears to confuse Black Lives Matter with Movement for Black Lives. It also claims the Soros foundation gave $33 million to BLM, which has been fact checked by Snopes and found to be the total donated by OSF to all organisations with even the most tangential of connections to the Ferguson protests. The Politico article "major donors consider funding black lives matter" doesn't mention any figures at all.
At the very least, it needs clarification of what is meant by 'Black Lives Matter' in the context of funding - namely dozens of different organisations involved in racial equality and justice in some way.
The most recent tax filing I can find for the Black Lives Matter Foundation (the organisation rather than the broader movement) is from 2017 and is for $279,109. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nephtys84 ( talk • contribs) 08:36, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
Ford Foundation claims to fund "Movement for Black Lives" (aka M4BL) on its own website. This link also confirms the funding from Borealis Philanthropy:
"Movement for Black Lives" is NOT in fact separate from BLM. M4BL is a coalition of groups which includes BLM ( /info/en/?search=Movement_for_Black_Lives https://web.archive.org/web/20190502120213/https://policy.m4bl.org/about/)
From Borealis Philanthropy, we see a quote from a senior member of Open Society Foundations which confirms their support for M4BL (and hence BLM):
“We are proud to be a BLMF donor in this important political moment because supporting the Movement for Black Lives (M4BL) is what will make long-lasting, systemic change possible,” said Alvin Starks, Senior Program Officer with the equality team of the Open Society Foundations’ U.S. Programs.
https://borealisphilanthropy.org/black-led-movement-fund-2018-grantees-focus-on-cross-movement-collaboration/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.247.111.114 ( talk) 00:00, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
Possible section on Bubba Wallace incident. [2] It will provide better context to the race relations tensions. It has also been one of the victories of BLM to remove the racist confederate flag from nascar.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Ice fly editor ( talk • contribs)
References
In the subsection 'Police use of excessive force', the numbers for 2019 are not accurate. Currently, it says: "In 2019, police officers shot and killed 1,001 people. About half of those killed were white, and one quarter were black.[86][87]"
It cites two sources, statista.com, [87] and WP [86]. However, following the link provided, statista gives different numbers for 2019: 1004 were killed, of whom 370 (37%) were white, and 235 (23%) were black. According to WP, the numbers for 2019 are as follows: 999 killings, of whom 403 were white (40%), 250 were black (25%). So I think that it would be better to say: "In 2019, police officers shot and killed about 1,000 people. About 40% of those killed were white, and one quarter were black.[86][87]"
Also, the following WP quote is, while technically true, less informative than it could be. It currently says that "The rate at which black Americans are killed by police is more than twice as high as the rate for white Americans." The rate for white people is 13/1m and for black people 31/1m. That is nearly three times higher. To make an analogy: If I consider buying a car, and model A has a price tag of $25k, model B of 95k, then yes, model B is 'more than twice as expensive' than model A. It is also 'more than three times as expensive' than model A. However, the most informative thing to say would be to say that it is 'almost more than four times as expensive' than model A. So I think it would be better to say that: "The rate at which black Americans are killed by police is nearly three times as high as the rate for white Americans." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:16b8:3128:300:39c1:36df:7a52:2b5d ( talk • contribs) 21:02, 29 June 2020 (UTC) (Please sign your comment with 4 tildes.)
Hi fellow editors. The article refers in a number of places — including in the infobox and articles such as this one — to BLM being internaional / global. That being the case, should the term "African-American" not be replaced by a term applicable to black people in other regions, such as Western Europe, where they experience similar police brutality? Rui ''Gabriel'' Correia ( talk) 08:26, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
I think it could be helpful to include some statistics that give more context on the issue of police violence toward black people in the U.S. Would it be best to include these in the Criticism section, or somewhere else? For example, according to an article in the Wall Street Journal: "In 2019 police officers fatally shot 1,004 people, most of whom were armed or otherwise dangerous. African-Americans were about a quarter of those killed by cops last year (235), a ratio that has remained stable since 2015. That share of black victims is less than what the black crime rate would predict, since police shootings are a function of how often officers encounter armed and violent suspects. In 2018, the latest year for which such data have been published, African-Americans made up 53% of known homicide offenders in the U.S. and commit about 60% of robberies, though they are 13% of the population....The police fatally shot nine unarmed blacks and 19 unarmed whites in 2019, according to a Washington Post database, down from 38 and 32, respectively, in 2015. " [1] Stonkaments ( talk) 05:20, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
References
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Black Lives Matter is a left wing, Marxist organization with radical views on society. They believe in the dismantling of the nuclear family, a concept proven to be unsuccessful in today's black communities. In addition, they want to eliminate the police and shut down all prisons. Further, BLM believes that success and hard work are "white" goals and that society should not have to follow these "white" goals. Ironically, they also bitch and moan that white people have it better so kind of a double standard. 2601:285:8200:84A0:6C67:C0E2:533C:F682 ( talk) 08:38, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
This is a pretty blatant misrepresentation of sources. For example, the first source says:
"The data is unequivocal. Police killings are a race problem: African-Americans are being killed disproportionately and by a wide margin. And police bias may be responsible."
But that is being used to insert text into the article which claims: " Sendhil Mullainathan has argued that the data does not show police racial bias is a major factor in accounting for killings of African Americans"
Mullainathan does say that there may be other factors at work, but the text that is being added is not reflective of that. Volunteer Marek 20:07, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
This does not qualify as RS. This is a non-peer reviewed working paper (though Fryer might have a published version of it). This again doesn't support the text that is being inserted. Volunteer Marek 20:12, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
And here is another problem. This, aside from being your fourth revert today, uses a false edit summary. The text is NOT "original research/biased language". It's straight from the source which says, quote: "In contrast to previous work that relied on the FBI’s Supplemental Homicide Reports that were constructed from self-reported cases of police-involved homicide, this data set is less likely to be biased by police reporting practices." Hence, the text is directly based on the source and is important because it accounts for differences with other studies. Volunteer Marek 21:10, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
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If the basis for Black Lives Matter's complaints regarding police actions against blacks and more generally, the need to rename buildings and remove monuments across America IS abuse of a MINORITY, African Americans, in America, then why do they quote Pew Research Center (a very questionable poll anyway in this case) saying that a MAJORITY of people across America support BLM? Their original premise is based on MINORITIES; it makes no sense for them to invoke MAJORITIES as supporting their actions as this seems a hypocritical reference use. LisaRudisill LisaRudisill ( talk) 13:17, 13 July 2020 (UTC)
The page reads: Black Lives Matter (BLM) is an organized movement in the United States advocating for non-violent civil disobedience in protest against incidents of police brutality against African-American people. The movement name is Black Live Matters. It's inclusive of all Black people, not only the African-American community. In fact, the movement official site reads: "Black Lives Matter Foundation, Inc is a global organization in the US, UK, and Canada, whose mission is to eradicate white supremacy and build local power to intervene in violence inflicted on Black communities by the state and vigilantes"
In the ABOUT page of the movement, the word African doesn't appear at all. I understand the term African-American may refer to the person's ancestry but it seems to be -I believe- incorrect in this article.
Thank you — Preceding unsigned comment added by Choma6 ( talk • contribs) 19:38, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
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Please change first sentence “BLM is is an organized movement in the United States...”
TO: “BLM is is an organized Marxist movement in the United States...”
Source: “Black Lives Matter co-founder Patrisse Cullors said in a newly surfaced video from 2015 that she and her fellow organizers are “trained Marxists” – making clear their movement’s ideological foundation, according to a report.”
NY POST, June 25, 2020, Y. Steinbuch, Black Lives Matter co-founder describes herself as ‘trained Marxist’
https://nypost.com/2020/06/25/blm-co-founder-describes-herself-as-trained-marxist/
Also 2nd Source: Patrisse herself stating trained Marxist in video embedded in Blacks and Wealth article online
https://blacksandwealth.com/2020/06/21/black-lives-matter-is-a-marxist-organization/ 66.222.102.206 ( talk) 03:43, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
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This organisation is described by many as Marxist. This is a common description by many, yet not even mentioned in the article. How come this is so? Is this a possible double standard on Wikipedia? Rudy Giuliani has among others mentioned that BLM is a Marxist organisation and there are several sources on the net that also mentionens it. - Primal Benefactor ( talk) 13:55, 4 July 2020 (UTC) — Primal Benefactor ( talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
Also, starting 1.00 minutes into the video at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgEUbSzOTZ8 , BLM co-founder Patrisse Cullors says, "We actually do have an ideological frame. Myself and Alicia in particular, we're trained organizers. We are trained Marxists. We are super versed on ideological theories." Just mentioning this for the discussion -- I haven't added anything on it to the article. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 15:30, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
BLM also has, or had until very recently, one of its stated aims on its website at the overthrow of capitalism. Which is a Marxist view. Ben Finn ( talk) 20:49, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
Also BLM’s Marxism is the subject of this article in the UK’s Telegraph newspaper, certainly reliable as journalistic sources go. Might be more of an op-ed (behind paywall) but confirms that BLM is widely regarded as Marxist. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/06/12/make-no-mistake-blm-radical-neo-marxist-political-movement/ Ben Finn ( talk) 20:55, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
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I read recently that BLM founders were well versed in understanding marxism. Despite it's statistically the older white gen guys, that are most likely to see this socialism as evil and Breitbart defintely had a field day attacking it. I have also seen quite a few opinion pieces in top leading newspapers that similarly criticises the founder's ideology. Generally attacking it by saying that Marxism stands in complete opposition to their Judeo-Christian foundation of America. And that it's atheist philosophy that attacks the "american way". It's obvious the writers are fundamental christians and they see the west as "supposed" to be christian and so they see marxism as a mortal enemy to its religion. Should we add this in to the "criticism of BLM" section or not? Some example sources - https://nypost.com/2020/06/25/blm-co-founder-describes-herself-as-trained-marxist/ https://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/jun/29/editorial-black-lives-matter-is-rooted-in-a-soulle/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/06/12/make-no-mistake-blm-radical-neo-marxist-political-movement/ P.S not that familiar in creating a new chapter in talk so sincere apologies if I actually did it improperly. MangoTareeface9 ( talk) 12:10, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
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Can you check to see if Black Lives Matter Global Network Foundation is the actual Non-Profit charity? I checked the IRS web site and there is no filing for this organization. I did find ActBlue Charities. 2601:80:4202:B7B4:ADDC:73A3:5A88:E488 ( talk) 15:06, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
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There have been a number of attempts to address violence conducted during the times of Black Lives Matter protests and they have been rejected, generally because the requests have been inappropriate or uncited.
I think it would be good to address it. At the top of the article, it says BLM is "an organized movement advocating for non-violent civil disobedience". I think the article should also state that the movement is conducted at a series of local levels, and attended by a wide body of individuals and sometimes violence become part of the protests: sometimes by police, sometimes by protesting attendees or others / opportunists. Basically, the protests have been mostly non-violent, but there have been incidents of violence, burnings, lootings - with differentiation between protestors and opportunists. I am happy to work on this, perhaps making a section for violence at BLM protests. There are tons of sources here.
The Police use of excessive force section needs a bit of work as well. Some of the information is misleading.
Any thoughts on this?– CaroleHenson ( talk) 22:23, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
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Patrisse Cullors has been on video record as saying that she and Alicia Garza are trained Marxists there is no way you can separate someones political views from their political activism and as such it's dishonest and dangerous not to include the mention of BLM as a Marxist Ideology. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgEUbSzOTZ8 For Reference. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AdvancedBarbarism ( talk • contribs)
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Anywhere the organization is listed as a movement should be changed to an organization as it is what it is, It has income, revenue and expenses. WritePeople ( talk) 02:21, 17 July 2020 (UTC)
The BLMUK gofundme page talks a lot about dismantling capitalism and imperialism, zero on police brutality. Unfortunately it's on the blacklist so no link.
The Socialist Worker's Party are out on the protests, plenty of Socialist Worker logos mixed in with BLM, eg https://socialistworker.co.uk/art/43116/Black+Lives+Matter+activists+meet+to+organise++and+discuss+strategy. You can even see a mingling of the logos on their banners.
There are various articles on how the movement has been 'hijacked' by the far left - eg https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/hard-left-hijacks-black-lives-matter-movement-lpmfn3f2j — Preceding unsigned comment added by EUBanana ( talk • contribs) 08:07, 17 July 2020 (UTC)
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An individual has contacted OTRS on VRTS ticket # 2020071810005152 asking for the following sources to be shared for possible inclusion in this article:
Best, Darren-M talk 18:16, 19 July 2020 (UTC)
I don't think anti-racist is neutral because there are some people that believe that Black Lives Matter is supposed to help blacks, but not whites hence we have All Lives Matter. Pinging @ ItsPugle: for thoughts. Interstellarity ( talk) 01:36, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
Per the cited source, the retracted study was the 2019 article in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences (PNAS), titled “Officer characteristics and racial disparities in fatal officer-involved shootings”. [7]
Is there any evidence to support the claim that the 2018 study in Social Psychological and Personality Science titled "Is There Evidence of Racial Disparity in Police Use of Deadly Force? Analyses of Officer-Involved Fatal Shootings in 2015–2016" was also retracted?
They are different studies, with different authors and different conclusions, and as far as I can tell the 2018 study was not retracted. Joseph Cesario, one of the authors of both studies, said in response to his retraction of the PNAS study: "An earlier 2019 paper of mine, which found no evidence of anti-black disparities in the likelihood of being fatally shot when controlling for crime rates, also resulted in calls for retraction and positive endorsement by prominent conservative voices, but I continue to uphold that work." [8] Stonkaments ( talk) 18:13, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
The 2019 article in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences (PNAS), titled “Officer characteristics and racial disparities in fatal officer-involved shootings,” ... have submitted a request for retraction to PNAS.
I have removed the following, inserted into the article here to this talk page section for discussion:
On July 24, 2020, the United Nations human rights department called on US security forces to limit their use of force against peaceful protesters and journalists in Portland and other US cities. The UN expressed concern about the US security forces cracking down on anti-racism protests, and stated that people have a right to protest peacefully and should not be subjected to unnecessary, disproportionate and discriminatory use of force. [1]
The insertion accurately characterizes the WAPO report. which WAPO sources to this U.N. news conference. However, it appears to me that in lifting that information out of the context of the news conference, WAPO introduced (and Wikipedia would repeat with this insertion) an invitation for readers to draw the conclusion that the call for the U.S. to limit their use of force against peaceful protesters and journalists might have been a disapprobation. It is clear from the news conference that this is not the case. The portion of the news conference of interest is about 17m18s in, with the UN spokeswoman speaking in French in response to a question posed in French. at 17m34s she switches to English and hands off to the UNHCR spokeswoman for an answer. After an introduction in French, the UNHCR spokeswoman says, "Obviously, what has been happening with regard to [protests (?)] taking place that have been making lots of the headlines, we are very much aware of that. I think what we would say is that peaceful demonstrations that have been taking place in cities in the U.S. of such importance really must be able to continue without those participating in them, and also the people reporting on them -- the journalists, risking arbitrary arrest or detention and being subject to unnecessary, disproportionate, or disciplinary use of force or suffering other violations of their rights.There have been reports that [peaceful demonstrators ...]" -- the UNHCR spokeswoman continued as reported by WAPO beginning with an uppercase P in Peaceful, and continues after the closing period inserted by WAPO to close their quotation in what was the middle of a sentence in the quoted statement. I suggest that this report, if included, be accompanied by a long enough quote from the primary source to make it clear that this is an observation that due care needs to be observed as is usual and normal in such situations and that the UNHCR spokeswoman's observation in this news conference was not a disapprobation of the U.S. by the UNHCR.
Also, separately from my comment and suggestion, I note that the UNHCR spokeswoman highlights an upcoming UNHCR general comment on the right to peaceful assembly, which is expected on 29 July; There is more information about that in the statement linked above. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 14:26, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
References
Consider listing the stated beliefs of Black Lives Matter.
The BLM website has a section entitled, "What we Believe" https://blacklivesmatter.com/what-we-believe/
The list of beliefs is similar to the Wikipedia BLM entry, "Guiding Principles", but differs. The list of beliefs is more concrete than the more amorphous list of guiding principles. One is a general overview (Principles), the other is a more distilled perspective ("What we Believe")...and more recent.
"Guiding Principles" were from 2015.
"What we Believe" is from 26 July 2020.
Many thanks for this opportunity to contribute.
Edit: I'm new here. For some reason, there is a citation from the Washington Post listed below this entry. It is not related to this particular topic and I did not place it there.
Billcorr ( talk) 19:59, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
The Criticism section is written as a dialectic. It is written in a point counter-point style which is not fitting for a section titled "Criticism" For instance, the following is not a Criticism of BLM but actually a criticism of the police "A North Carolina police chief retired after calling BLM a terrorist group.[362] A police officer in Oregon was removed from street duty following a social media post in which he said he would have to "babysit these fools", in reference to a planned BLM event.[363]" Similarly, the following is also not a criticism of BLM and is not appropriate under the criticism section "Washington Post columnist Jonathan Capehart wrote that Giuliani's comments reinforced his sense that the former mayor lives in a "racial world of make-believe".[381]" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.176.8.103 ( talk • contribs) 08:03, 29 June 2020 (UTC) (Please sign your comment with 4 tildes.)
More comments are requested at Talk:A.C.A.B.#Request for comment on text removed from ACAB article. 71.178.129.13 ( talk) 03:43, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
I'm not nearly knowledgeable enough to write this myself, but I think the article could benefit a lot from an attempt to make a coherent description of how the Black Lives Matter movement has spread outside of the US, rather than just individual countries someone has had the energy to write about. The whole is bigger than the individual pieces, so to speak. Just a few paragraphs would help, since it's not separate happenings but something taking place in a larger context. / Julle ( talk) 16:36, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
How can a good article include a banner on top stating this article is "too long", as well as an update banner, neutrality banner, and "clarification needed" tags.. Tinton5 ( talk) 06:37, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
"African-American" and "black" are not synonyms. The first sentence of the lede is incorrect because it relates BLM exclusively to African-Americans. Please change it to "black." 2A02:6B61:214E:0:CD46:F9CF:1213:F71E ( talk) 12:33, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
My removal of this section has just been reverted by Jorm, who enjoined me to first discuss this, and here I am. I believe this section, which doesn't even mention BLM, is a general expose on the topic which belongs in Police brutality in the United States. Articles on social movements such as this one are not meant to present the issues they are tackling. If this were the case, we would have to present the more general issue of racism against black people, the topic of incarceration and its links to race, and many others which the movement addresses. Clearly, this is out of scope, so we should remove the section, and provide instead a link to a dedicated article or articles such as the one mentioned above. Also, I'd like to point out that the section is the only one which doesn't focus on BLM or the reaction to it. Furthermore, the current length of the article provides additional justification for the deletion of content that doesn't focus directly on the subject matter of the article, namely the Black Lives Matter movement itself. Fa suisse ( talk) 06:15, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
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The most recent edit ( https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Black_Lives_Matter&oldid=972687061) appears to be vandalism. Could this please be reverted to the previous version ( https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Black_Lives_Matter&oldid=972586544)?
As I'm not autoconfirmed I can't make the change myself. EclipsePolenta ( talk) 11:13, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
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Why is there no mention of the fact that BLM is a Marxist/Communist Organization and is Anti-American?
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Advocates for mainly peaceful protests? This is an inaccurate statement. 2606:A000:1011:C812:3C2C:DCDB:5619:156D ( talk) 13:39, 10 September 2020 (UTC)
Hey. I think this article is confusing and lacks of citation. First paragraph says that BLM is a "decentralized movement" (without any citation confirming that) and the short description of the article says that BLM is a "social movement", but later on the article describes BLM as an international organization with own board of directors, etc. Also the article is tagged both as "too long" and as a "good article". Dinth ( talk) 07:19, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
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Please add the following statement regarding the group's stance on the nuclear family: "We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement by supporting each other as extended families and “villages” that collectively care for one another, especially our children, to the degree that mothers, parents, and children are comfortable." 2601:18D:4600:E7A0:38FB:3F53:9ED5:568B ( talk) 12:49, 23 August 2020 (UTC)