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Why is 90% of the talk section and half the article just people complaining about the "accuracy" of the film? I put accuracy in quotes because this is a movie not a Thesis paper. This is Wikipedia, not a scholarly publisher or doctoral committee. This movie could portray Somalis as actual cartoons and take place in space in 1932 and it wouldn't remotely justify all this. This isn't a movie mistake database and an article about a movie set during a historical event is not the article for the event itself! That page already exists and this film, nor this page by extension, has any obligation to square away the inconsistencies. That's not the point of this website. This article should be trimmed. J1DW ( talk) 15:14, 28 September 2021 (UTC)
The "plot" section of this page reads as though it were written by a 12 year old. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.167.224.194 ( talk) 04:30, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
This is one of my favorite films, I've watched it many times. Altho the characterizations are sketchy, Eversmann is one focal character worth mentioning but his promotion is mentioned out of the blue, the sentence was a non sequiter. What's important about his role in the film is how well he acquitted himself in the field despite his lack of experience, in contrast to Blackburn, and how much or how little experience matters, as well as attitude, and luck (illustrated by the desk clerk's (Grimes) path in the film). I wonder if people who talk about racism noticed the contrast between Eversmann's respect for the "skinnies" and Blackburn's eagerness to jump into battle. As for the battle itself, I didn't add a lot of detail but I think it was necessary to clarify the sequence of events, which could be a little confusing for a casual viewer. A great many men risked their lives not just to recover wounded men but to recover the bodies, as in, "No one gets left behind." In fact that might be worth adding in itself, since it spooked some of the men and could be considered foreshadowing. We are still well within the limits for the length of the plot, so I hope you won't treat my edits as vandalism. If you have a problem Jacobite we can talk about it here. Thanks! Beadmatrix ( talk) 07:26, 16 May 2012 (UTC)Beadmatrix
Regardless of how many times you have watched this film, you should not concern yourself with how much you like it. The write-up for this film really does come off as having been written by a moon-struck child, rather than a critical and reasonable observer. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.252.97.164 ( talk) 03:16, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
This is just garbage. The film was bad enough, why does this entry need to make it worse?! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.32.181.88 ( talk) 03:07, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
I changed the image to one relating to the film. Saopaulo1 18:38, Apr 9, 2005 (UTC)
"The film neglects the wider political context in which the battle took place thereby reducing it to a simple story of good vs evil.The truth is more complex."
This seems fairly POV. I haven't seen the film, but I'm pretty sure it was meant to be from the soldier's perspective, where political context wasn't a huge deal. We shouldn't have that in here at all unless a reviewer has said it somewhere. - LtNOWIS 03:00, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
The following text in the article also appears on the imdb page for this movie:
The massive shoot of the "target building insert" sequence was intended to be among the first sequences shot in principal photography, due to its complex nature. However, negotiations to borrow four Black Hawk helicopters from the United States military were so arduous that an agreement was not reached until a month after shooting had commenced. Director Ridley Scott had prepared a rental of four Hueys from Germany that were ready to be painted black and work as substitutes in the event an agreement with the US Department of Defense could not be reached. Fortunately, the US Government was eventually satisfied that the film would portray the incident in a positive light, and shipped the helicopters to the location in two C-5 Galaxy transports. Ridley Scott says this was very fortunate for the film, since the title is "Black Hawk Down" and Hueys have no resemblance to Black Hawks.
The Making of the film section unnecessarily repeats many of the points from the Trivia section. Should the "making of" be deleted and merged with trivia? --Mikael Grizzly
Some of the paragraphs seem to be either misinterpritations, or need fact sources. Some we're either creative liberties I'm sure, or someone's own belife of X matter. Despite factual problems it's also very POV oriented.
-- ShortShadow 02:25, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
Have previous editors seem the same film that I did? Some critics view the film as blatant propaganda on behalf of the US, or favoring military intervention in general (although the film and book clearly depict the intervention as basically humanitarian and military intervention without sufficient force as a disaster in the making). - oh boy, that's so POV that it hurts. I saw the movie; it is propaganda of the US Armed Forces and has no evidence at all of "basically humanitarian" acts or intents. It does show us things (quite literally) through the POV of the American soldiers and therefore does indeed make an appeal for more military force in said interventions. However, it does fail entirely in even attempting to show us that a "disaster" would follow from the alternatives; if anything it is evidence that military intervention may very well be by definition a disaster in and of itself. Luis Dantas 14:03, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
Of course, we all remember that whatever we may personally think, our opinions are unequivocally inappropriate for inclusion in any article at any time. Find the opinion in a reputable journal, book, or publication, or leave it be. The number of interpretations of any event are not infinite, but they are very large, and they cannot all be included. 72.240.132.45 04:57, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
71.31.236.208 ( talk) 02:18, 3 December 2008 (UTC)Should there not be some mention of the fictionalized nature of many of the combat incidents depicted in the movie. For examples, the nightime ambush and destruction of the Somali heavy gun and its crew by the returning lost patrol or the depiction of Pilot Durant mowing down dozens of Somalis with his MP5K sub-machinegun, when in reality, that weapon jammed continually. http://inquirer.philly.com/packages/somalia/nov23/default23.asp
I am not so good at the whole editing thing, but I have some information that needs to be added to this article. The helicopters (and soldiers flying them) were from the 160th Special Operations Aviation Regiment (Airborne). I looked all over the place, but this didn't seem to be included anywhere. In fact, the only divisions mentioned were the ones that were involved in the rescue. I would appreciate it someone a little more technologically savvy would add this to the article!
I saw that it was already in the article, but more attention should be paid this fact than to mention it in the production notes.
Aaah, valid point. I am in the infancy of my WikiEditing, and am not sure exactly how it should be changed. My point in posting this here was only a suggestion, to be followed through by someone a little more knowledgeable in both the correct format for the appriate edit, and in the actual subject itself. Lawilkin 17:45, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
I understand what you mean about its relevance to the movie. After a little research and a little "epiphany" of common sense, I realized that there is an actual article devoted to the Battle of Mogadishu. Which leads me to another concern: is it necessary to include an entire history on this movie page of the events in the battle when there is already a page of the actual events? Should these things be included in the movie article? Because it is possible that information relavent to the movie may be added to the page for the battle but not the movie page, thereby leaving the movie page not as accurate. I guess this might just be food for thought, or it is an issue that should be addressed if it hasn't been already! Lawilkin 20:30, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
My understanding (don't have references, sorry) is the film conveys the idea that it was petty politics quite strongly. But the reality of the situation was it was largely because the Americans decided to heard of on a mission without properly telling anyone. You can't blame the Pakistanis and Malaysias for not doing proper contigency planning when they weren't properly informed of the plans. How would the Pakistanis and Malaysians (and perhaps US 10 Mountain divison?) be expected to do contigency planning when they weren't informed of what the plans were? It would seem to me that it's common sense if you people to be able to quickly respond when the shit hits the fan, you need to tell them what your planning and hopefully work through a contingency plan beforehand not suddenly given them a call later and tell them your in deep shit and need their help and expect them to come up with a plan in 1 minute. Given the lack of this consultation and planning, my understanding is the Malaysian, Pakistanis and others had to spend time coming up with the rescue mission rather then implementing a pre-existing contigency plan as would occur in an ideal situation. Presemuably, heading off like cowboys (like the earlier US mission perhaps did) was more likely to result in another blood bath so they spent the time to come up with a well planed rescue mission which they apparently implemented with a resonable degree of success Nil Einne 19:58, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
I agree that simply wasn't the case, and that is extremly POV, and very factually questionable. For starters the it's highly unlikely the 10th Mt. Devision was alreday on standby, it's very costly and expensive to contiously be in that state. The idea of that scene was to convey because they weren't informed about the raid, they weren't ready to go out that quickly, and that they needed time to assemble and get ready. It never was about conveying polotics, both Bowden and Nolan stated that in the DVD commentary. Secondly, everything you are saying you are saying in hindsight. Obviously now they would have some sort of back-up plan, but you have no proof with you that there was a back up plan. The raid was expected to last only 30 minutes they would get in and get out. Not to mention these are some of the most well trained soldiers in the United States. It was unlikely they would anticipate disaster because it never happend before. --
ShortShadow
17:03, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
The recent addition on the lack of Somalis in the film is interesting, but I'm not sure what should go into the article about it. I can imagine it would have been rather difficult to get enough actual Somalis to serve as extras without going to Somalia. I'm not sure that would have been possible, even if the Somalis aren't the faceless bad guys of the film. Some things might have been done to humanize them, but it was based on the book, which I imagine didn't draw on extensive interviews of Somalis who participated in the battle. -- Habap 04:35, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
I removed some info regarding the "omission" of khat involvement from the film. Actually, Tom Sizemore's character briefly mentions khat being used and at the time when it is already afternoon. He says this soon after the mission briefing and when he is asked 'what's the matter'. ResurgamII 01:58, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
^ Whoever added that gave a misleading IMDB.com source which was only a list of the cast/crew of the film. Identifying who's actually Somali from that source is beyond me, unless you're relying on the sounds of the names (to find out the nationality).
I've watched the "On the Set" special features of the Black Hawk Down DVD, and the extras who play Somalis are only labeled as extras, nothing more. Unless this very short section of claims, especially the 'linguistics part' which is original research, can be verified it should be removed immediately. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by ResurgamII ( talk • contribs) 04:09, 31 January 2007 (UTC). ResurgamII 04:09, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
Some critics view the film as blatant propaganda on behalf of the US, or favoring military intervention in general (although the film and book clearly depict the intervention as basically humanitarian and military intervention without sufficient force as a disaster in the making). Unlike Scott's earlier film G.I. Jane, Black Hawk Down received the full cooperation of the US military and he allowed the military a veto over every aspect of the film in order to receive this level of military involvement. Some argue that this resulted in a biased finished product, although it is not clear whether the U.S. military asked Scott to modify or censor the film in any way and the military hierarchy and political decision-making process are not portrayed in a positive light.
^ Not a big deal, but weasel words( [1]) should be cleaned up. ResurgamII 18:36, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
The paragraph that starts "The film also takes creative license when it comes to Sgt. Eversmann's role in the battle" is more of a typical change made in order to make the movie better, and wasn't a part of "propaganda" nor was it a controversial change (the paragraph doesn't claim it is either) could the paragraph be moved to the production notes or some more appropriate place? Monkeyman334 16:24, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
Yes please. More weasel wording there.
ResurgamII
01:38, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
I watched this film at least five times (including extended version), still have no idea where he appears.-- Mato Rei 17:51, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
Pakistanis may have been accurately represented for their role as US-soldier rescurers, but Pakistan was leading military involvement there before the US even showed up. So I think the comment there is appropriate, no movie was every made about them. Monkeyman334 14:37, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
Pakistan is distant geographically and wouldn't endanger Mecca, see location of Saudi Arabia and learn more about their people and plight with Iran. That's like saying the 300 Spartans movie "Phalanx" was used when it is a pretty obviously remembered Blitzkrieg, proven ineffective when scouts contact hostile forces. See: Drones, this is not Osama — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.43.193.226 ( talk) 22:33, 7 February 2018 (UTC)
Article stated that the movie ranked 154th on its opening day (possibly true, the dollar amount is correct, it was only on four screen on opening day.) For its first weekend of wide release it made $28M USD, but this only places it at 24th in box office for the weekend? What were the other 23 films being screen in theatres that weekend (for a minimum US box office total of $644 million in that weekend) Or is that for the year? Or is that a comparision of opening weekends? I'm not up to tracking down the info, so I trimmed it down to just dollar amounts and if someone else wants to get the right citations, please do. Zotdragon 19:16, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
What notable things did hoot do in the event
Is there anyway to turn this section into a 'non-list' writing? It's very difficult to ready bullet by bullet, like some sort of random info. Maybe someone can fix this in their spare time. Let me also add that it is also overly long. ResurgamII 20:06, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
Image:Black hawk down poster.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. BetacommandBot 14:45, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
"...Mohammed Farah Aidid was killed on August 1, 1996 during a battle with the militia of his rival and former ally Osman Ali Atto..."
I just recently watched the movie again and, according to the movie, Warlord Mohamed Farrah Aidid was killed in Mogadishu on 2 August 1996, not 1 August 1996. The exact text from the movie was: "Major General William F. Garrison accepted full responsibility for the outcome of the raid. On August 2, 1996, warlord Mohamed Farrah Aidid was killed in Mogadishu. The following day, General Garrison retired."
Now I don't know if the movie is wrong or the warlord's death is wrong, but it should be looked in to. Fiver2552 03:05, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
The movie is wrong he died on the 1st( ForeverDEAD 20:09, 15 September 2007 (UTC))
It wasn't a phosphorous grenade that exploded. It was the radio on his back. I'm going to go ahead and change it. 85.178.16.156 ( talk) 14:48, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
Perhaps some mention of the Hans Zimmer soundtrack? Just an idea. 70.130.139.144 21:36, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
In the movie Hoot was talking to a superior officer callsign Kilo 64 never shown in the movie , but i read some where that kilo64 was pilot of super61 , can any one confirm this ?--
Max Mayr
06:54, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
I readded the section which was inexplicible removed by User talk:Russell731 here [2]. While this section needs work (weasel words and it can probably be trimmed), it is mostly sourced so it's removal was even more unacceptable particularly considering the large trivia section most of which is unsourced. If someone wants to re-write it from scrtach, feel free but please actually do it. Don't remove a section and then don't re-write it. Nil Einne 00:53, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
Bob Dylan's song "Knockin' on Heaven's Door" was used in the first version of the movie trailer. This changed when the next version of the trailer got released. 88.215.155.90 18:33, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
Image:Blackhwdnphoto.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot 20:41, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
There's a tag at the top of the page saying the plot is too long. It's not just that, either. It reads like a narrative, very unencyclopedic ("on that fateful day"). I'm in the process of rewriting it to what I believe to be an appropriate length, then if consensus is that it should be longer, it can be gradually built up from there. Briefplan ( talk) 11:54, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
The "Other production information" section is getting ridiculous. Most if not all the information in it is unencyclopedic. I would just remove it, but I think it would upset a few people who have contributed. But I really don't think it should be there. Can we have a few opinions? Briefplan ( talk) 11:29, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
Ok, nobody has responded, so I will just delete the section. In order to follow the ideal of improve rather than delete, here are a few of the bullet points which I think are notable enough to be integrated back into the article, but only if they can be worked into the text. A couple of them can't fit in the article the way it is currently structured, but they might fit in future sections.
That's all in my opinion, but it's not a hard and fast list. I'll maybe have a go at writing a couple of them in. Briefplan ( talk) 02:27, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
The film won 2 awards in the 2001 Oscars, and was nominated for several others. However the article suggests, on casual reading, the awards/nominations were made for the 2002 Oscars. Given Oscars are awarded in (the March of) a given year for films released in the previous year, what's the correct nomenclature for an Oscar? Is it the year the statue was awarded or the respective award year? The back of the DVD sleeve for this film suggests the latter, since it states '... this Oscar - winning movie (2001-Film Editing and Sound) ...' Fizzackerly ( talk) 14:14, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Wow, talk about a whitewash. Does Ridley Scott have a full-time staffer blanking material from this article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.233.1.78 ( talk) 17:12, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
There is an edit war over the accusation of racism directed at this movie in The Daily Princetonian. Whether this publication is notable enough to warrant the inclusion of the accusation, I am not sure. I suggest the two parties discuss it here and everyone else joins in. Personally, I think the newspaper is a bit insignificant and its inclusion here is a little odd. Bretonbanquet ( talk) 20:41, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
My views on why this is not an acceptable source:
That's the basis for my opinion anyway. The source isn't even reporting a fact, it's presenting a very extreme and subjective POV by a college student. There is no evidence of this view being shared on any substantial level in the criticism community. Betty Logan ( talk) 20:58, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
An administrator has chimed in at the aforementioned Reliable Source report, and stated that the DP qualifies as a reliable source (as are many "school newspapers"). He went on to state that doesn't extend to opinions (which is what the edit involves), but the host of links I provided above more than settles any sort of "fringe theory" argument. Sounds like this has been wrapped up with a nice little bow, just in time for Christmas! Tool2Die4 ( talk) 21:57, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
A request was made for a 3rd opinion on this topic. I hope my thoughts can be helpful.
For a source to be considered reliable, there should be an expectation that its providing incorrect information would lead to negative consequences. A normal news journal or TV organisation will usually have staff who earn their living by working for such an organisation - write a very poor article and such a journalist might possibly expect their boss to want a discussion, or even a change in employment status. A person employed by a university who acts contrary to the institution's rules equally expects negative consequences. Someone employed by a company who gives unauthorised and incorrect information to the public expects trouble. A person working for a voluntary organisation or NGO would normally be a member because it's a cause in which they believed and will usually remain associated long-term - being thrown out is rarely desired.
A college newspaper staffed by students is inevitably a highly transient organisation. I understand the DP is independent of Princeton University, and thus the university would have very limited sanctions against its published articles. This is different to those school newspapers which have a formal association with the school. The students acting as journalists will normally do so on the side, with studies at the university taking the focus of their time. The consequences of writing a bad article are limited - one can still carry on with the degree course. The readership will have a high churn rate - perhaps 30% or more per year by virtue of university enrollments. Further, existing enrolled students would expect the editorial team and their policy to change on a far more regular basis (perhaps every semester) compared to other newspapers or media organisations.
For these 2 reasons - both the absence of significant penalty for articles that could be ill-considered, and the highly transient nature of the editorial team and their policy, I would have difficulty treating a the DP as a reliable source. Pmbma ( talk) 22:10, 24 December 2008 (UTC)Pmbma
Well there seems to be support for this citation to remain and be removed. All the relevant points have been made, and we should perhaps just vote on it and go with the majority. At least then the issue will be resolved one way or the other - at least then a sole party hasn't got a legitimate basis to alter it if a vote has been taken:
I have removed the DP citation now. The racism charge is made by a NYTimes and Entertainment Weekly critics with a response by Jerry Bruckheimer. If this isn't satisfactory please discuss any further changes you would like to be made here. I personally feel NYT and EW are adequate and reputable sources so hopefully this will suffice. Betty Logan ( talk) 06:08, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
With regards to the current warring [3], while I accept the anon is breaking the rules I can't help but feel he has a point. Is the "Philadelphia Weekly" a reliable source (having read its Wiki entry I am slightly dubious", and is it even necessary when we have citations from much stronger sources voicing more or less the same criticisms? Even if it is a legitimate inclusion do we really need to include a big chunk of the review into the article? It seems to devalue the collective strength of the sources without adding anything new to the criticism. Betty Logan ( talk) 17:45, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
How about this:
" Sean Burns, film critic for Philadelphia Weekly, wrote the following:
... Black Hawk Down begins to resemble Starship Troopers, only without all the klutzy satirical aspirations--and with black people instead of alien bugs.
That's where we run into the real trouble. I have no idea if Ridley Scott is a racist (though judging from Cuba Gooding Jr.'s scenes in Pearl Harbor I'm certain Jerry Bruckheimer is), but Black Hawk Down often plays like Birth of a Nation: The Next Generation.
"
I think it complements the other quotes without being redundant, I think it is pertinent to add it and I believe that the fact its source is "alternative" is quite a shallow argument to bring about -- and one that would just obliterate most other quotes by film critics of other sources, such as Village Voice or Ozu's film reviews.
I know it explicitly accuses Bruckenheimer of being a racist, but you see, racism isn't just an abstract phenomenon going on in the stratosphere, but something done and thought by people with names and surnames. It is a bold attempt by the author to make a point, and I stand by it. Walter Sobchak0 ( talk) 15:37, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
In the Charges of racism section, it says "Soon after Black Hawk Down's release, several organizations, including the Somali Justice Advocacy Center in California, called for its boycott and denounced what they felt was its brutal and dehumanizing depiction of Somalis." While true (at least according to the cited article), unless I missed it, the cited article doesn't actually say anything about racism. This might be a case of WP:OR and WP:SYN to include this information in a section about alleged racism. A Quest For Knowledge ( talk) 02:01, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
There's no cite for this claim, and the Entertainment Weekly's movie review was by Lisa Schwarzbaum [11] and the DVD review was by Erin Richter. [12] A Quest For Knowledge ( talk) 02:52, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
Although I've proofed the section and removed the subheads, I have not removed any statements as currently represented, despite some dodgy sourcing. This is not to be taken as condoning the section as it exists now.
Most films are not shot where they are set, don't capture the look or feel of the places and people to suit those who live there, and star actors who do not share their characters' ethnicity. Most people portrayed on the screen feel the film does not do justice to the reality, with reactions from dismissiveness to humiliation to deep-seated resentment.
To the general issue, show me the war film that doesn't condense characters and oversimplify details. How many war films present both sides as noble human beings? Even when one side could be said to be "right", does that mean all its soldiers were fine and upstanding individuals? There are complexities in war that could never possibly be examined in a film that also has to tell a story in two hours. That some films do a better job than others is one of the facts of moviemaking and could be said about films on any subject.
None of this is to say that the accusations are wrong, and in fact I have not seen the film. I'm simply raising the logical point that every article on a film based on a true story could have a section where people point out all the things that the film got wrong (often intentionally, as dramatic license or budgetary and screen-time constraints). There is also a degree to which all films could be (and in some circles are) called racist, homophobic, sexist, etc., because they focus on the experience of that society's straight men. Notice I don't say American men, because the same phenomenon exists in other cultures. That we note this at Wikipedia when it is notably and reliably sourced is reasonable. But to give it undue weight is against reason, perspective, and Wiki's own guidelines.
I would point out that one of the articles currently referenced for that section includes this:
The reality of the Somali character is captured in this movie," said Mohamed Ali Abdi, who had been living at Bar Ubah junction, where the battle took place. "But there is not a single word of the Somali language, no Somali music, nothing of our culture. This is absurd, but still they reproduced our sandy streets and battered buildings and the crazy way Somalis just kept on fighting"... (T)he young Somali men in the audience jumped up and cheered after an American helicopter was hit by Somali gunmen and crashed. "The movie is good but overdramatized," said Warsameh Abdi (a random young man in Somalia who had just watched the film)... Although the young men cheered whenever an American was hit, there was no reaction from the audience when a Somali character went down.
I point this out to counter the point made by the Philadelphia alternative newspaper's writer that Americans cheered at American "successes" in the film. The young Somali man seemed to understand and accept the limitations of the film better than these critics, and didn't get in the way of them enjoying it, even if Somali audience response was the mirror image of a Western audience response. Is either side right to cheer? This isn't a basketball game. Personally, I'd say no. Then again, there is a long history of war movies being made to rally public nationalism. I'm sure it's due in part to the way the films are made and in part to the fact that the majority of us are raised to be blindly nationalistic regardless of what we're shown. Why am I sure? Because both sides cheer this movie. That gives me no comfort. In fact, it seems like part of the problem. But to write this section of the article like the other half of this truth doesn't exist is to miss the point. Nationalism is racist, to some degree, no matter what your nation, and particularly in issues of war, international casualties and attacks on your own soil; war films just bring that point home. Something tells me those reviewers might well be saying the same things if they watched any of a number of war films generally considered classics today. Then again, they could simply review the news... Abrazame ( talk) 07:52, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
It seems reasonable to remove that "controversy" regarding the fact that the film does not accurately portray Somali culture. Having seen the movie multiple times, I am not aware of any instance where the movie attempts to portray Somali culture. It is certainly within the realm of possibility that the movie could have portrayed any number of elements, tangential the story it tells. The movie could have attempted to portray the nature of trade in the Bakara Market or the ins and outs of the local populations love of soccer. Since it does not attempt to portray those things, saying that it does not "accurately portray" them is not a criticism. The movie portrays the battle. There are many things that are not portrayed in the battle. To present this lack of portrayal as a criticism is, in my view, invalid on its face. - Gwopy 03:41, 2 January 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gwopy ( talk • contribs)
I removed the follwoing ELs because they seemed inappropriate per WP:EL, but they might be appropriate to work in as inline references, so here they are:
Novaseminary ( talk) 16:34, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
We need to find a reference for the real life identity of characters portrayed in the movie that are not in the credits. I'll check back in a while to see if any are added, but if they cannot be verified then the information should be deleted. Seaphoto Talk 21:47, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
Did this movie made any profits? I heard that a movie needs to gross three times its production costs in order to make any profits. The gross of this movie is less than twice the production costs. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.21.214.42 ( talk) 22:32, 25 December 2010 (UTC)
The plot section contains some details, that are not mentioned in the film or wrong. I guess they might originate from the Book
-- Murata ( talk) 03:35, 4 January 2013 (UTC) You can see from the maps in the Mark Bowden book, Eversman's chalk is dropped in the wrong place. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.13.72.135 ( talk) 19:25, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
JesseRafe insists on including in the lede that Bowden's book was based on a series of article he wrote for The Philadelphia Inquirer. I say that this information is appropriate for the article about the book, but there is no reason to mention it here, as this film is based on the book. I removed the information and he reverted, with no explanation given. Does anyone else have any opinions on this? --- The Old Jacobite The '45 17:54, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
I was wondering if you could put the real life characters look into it if they where true, but add pages, Matt Eversmann, John Grimes, Danny McKnight, Shawn Nelson, Mike Kurth, Kurt Schmid, John Beales, Ed Yurek, Jamie Smith, Dominick Pilla, Richard Kowalewski, Lance Twombly and Scott Galentine, Casey Joyce, Todd Blackburn, and Lorenzo Ruiz, and John Maddox, as well, if they are true could you add them if possible if they do have history, also Clifton Wolcott we forgot, 203.97.114.146 ( talk) 20:40, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
No doubt this film was not an accurate representation of the situation in Somalia - for three good reasons: it was made ten years later, it was made for an American audience, and it was not made in Somalia. However the statement that "At one screening in Somalia, young men cheered whenever an American soldier's character was shot on screen" is irrelevant to the accuracy debate. It is no surprise that Somali's sympathise with their own people rather than invaders. Royalcourtier ( talk) 09:26, 18 August 2015 (UTC)
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The cast list is too long. It is very rare to see a film article with every cast member listed. In this case, most of these people are not even identifiable. I propose that the cast list be reduced to the 10 or so most notable people. --- The Old Jacobite The '45 13:46, 7 January 2017 (UTC)
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The movie was mostly filmed in Morocco this is a known fact. In one of the scenes appear bottles of mineral water with the logo of an Israeli mineral water company, written both in English AND Hebrew. I doubt this is meant to be US military issue and I also doubt this logo is freely found in Morocco, especially with the Hebrew script. My conclusion is that this sequence was filmed in Israel in contrary to official filming locations. Could not find reliable sources to support this. Anyone knows?
This has way too much detail about individual soldiers. The discussion needs more distance and summary - it is not supposed to replace the article Battle of Mogadishu. Parkwells ( talk) 16:04, 15 September 2018 (UTC)
Agree that reference to Bowden's articles in The Philadelphia Inquirer should be moved to the article on the book, not the film. It's not the point here. He could be described as an embedded journalist, if there is a source for that. Parkwells ( talk) 16:04, 15 September 2018 (UTC)
The article says there were two of them, but does not expain what they are. Nor does there appear to be any link to CSO. Rwflammang ( talk) 18:59, 10 September 2023 (UTC)
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Why is 90% of the talk section and half the article just people complaining about the "accuracy" of the film? I put accuracy in quotes because this is a movie not a Thesis paper. This is Wikipedia, not a scholarly publisher or doctoral committee. This movie could portray Somalis as actual cartoons and take place in space in 1932 and it wouldn't remotely justify all this. This isn't a movie mistake database and an article about a movie set during a historical event is not the article for the event itself! That page already exists and this film, nor this page by extension, has any obligation to square away the inconsistencies. That's not the point of this website. This article should be trimmed. J1DW ( talk) 15:14, 28 September 2021 (UTC)
The "plot" section of this page reads as though it were written by a 12 year old. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.167.224.194 ( talk) 04:30, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
This is one of my favorite films, I've watched it many times. Altho the characterizations are sketchy, Eversmann is one focal character worth mentioning but his promotion is mentioned out of the blue, the sentence was a non sequiter. What's important about his role in the film is how well he acquitted himself in the field despite his lack of experience, in contrast to Blackburn, and how much or how little experience matters, as well as attitude, and luck (illustrated by the desk clerk's (Grimes) path in the film). I wonder if people who talk about racism noticed the contrast between Eversmann's respect for the "skinnies" and Blackburn's eagerness to jump into battle. As for the battle itself, I didn't add a lot of detail but I think it was necessary to clarify the sequence of events, which could be a little confusing for a casual viewer. A great many men risked their lives not just to recover wounded men but to recover the bodies, as in, "No one gets left behind." In fact that might be worth adding in itself, since it spooked some of the men and could be considered foreshadowing. We are still well within the limits for the length of the plot, so I hope you won't treat my edits as vandalism. If you have a problem Jacobite we can talk about it here. Thanks! Beadmatrix ( talk) 07:26, 16 May 2012 (UTC)Beadmatrix
Regardless of how many times you have watched this film, you should not concern yourself with how much you like it. The write-up for this film really does come off as having been written by a moon-struck child, rather than a critical and reasonable observer. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.252.97.164 ( talk) 03:16, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
This is just garbage. The film was bad enough, why does this entry need to make it worse?! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.32.181.88 ( talk) 03:07, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
I changed the image to one relating to the film. Saopaulo1 18:38, Apr 9, 2005 (UTC)
"The film neglects the wider political context in which the battle took place thereby reducing it to a simple story of good vs evil.The truth is more complex."
This seems fairly POV. I haven't seen the film, but I'm pretty sure it was meant to be from the soldier's perspective, where political context wasn't a huge deal. We shouldn't have that in here at all unless a reviewer has said it somewhere. - LtNOWIS 03:00, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
The following text in the article also appears on the imdb page for this movie:
The massive shoot of the "target building insert" sequence was intended to be among the first sequences shot in principal photography, due to its complex nature. However, negotiations to borrow four Black Hawk helicopters from the United States military were so arduous that an agreement was not reached until a month after shooting had commenced. Director Ridley Scott had prepared a rental of four Hueys from Germany that were ready to be painted black and work as substitutes in the event an agreement with the US Department of Defense could not be reached. Fortunately, the US Government was eventually satisfied that the film would portray the incident in a positive light, and shipped the helicopters to the location in two C-5 Galaxy transports. Ridley Scott says this was very fortunate for the film, since the title is "Black Hawk Down" and Hueys have no resemblance to Black Hawks.
The Making of the film section unnecessarily repeats many of the points from the Trivia section. Should the "making of" be deleted and merged with trivia? --Mikael Grizzly
Some of the paragraphs seem to be either misinterpritations, or need fact sources. Some we're either creative liberties I'm sure, or someone's own belife of X matter. Despite factual problems it's also very POV oriented.
-- ShortShadow 02:25, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
Have previous editors seem the same film that I did? Some critics view the film as blatant propaganda on behalf of the US, or favoring military intervention in general (although the film and book clearly depict the intervention as basically humanitarian and military intervention without sufficient force as a disaster in the making). - oh boy, that's so POV that it hurts. I saw the movie; it is propaganda of the US Armed Forces and has no evidence at all of "basically humanitarian" acts or intents. It does show us things (quite literally) through the POV of the American soldiers and therefore does indeed make an appeal for more military force in said interventions. However, it does fail entirely in even attempting to show us that a "disaster" would follow from the alternatives; if anything it is evidence that military intervention may very well be by definition a disaster in and of itself. Luis Dantas 14:03, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
Of course, we all remember that whatever we may personally think, our opinions are unequivocally inappropriate for inclusion in any article at any time. Find the opinion in a reputable journal, book, or publication, or leave it be. The number of interpretations of any event are not infinite, but they are very large, and they cannot all be included. 72.240.132.45 04:57, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
71.31.236.208 ( talk) 02:18, 3 December 2008 (UTC)Should there not be some mention of the fictionalized nature of many of the combat incidents depicted in the movie. For examples, the nightime ambush and destruction of the Somali heavy gun and its crew by the returning lost patrol or the depiction of Pilot Durant mowing down dozens of Somalis with his MP5K sub-machinegun, when in reality, that weapon jammed continually. http://inquirer.philly.com/packages/somalia/nov23/default23.asp
I am not so good at the whole editing thing, but I have some information that needs to be added to this article. The helicopters (and soldiers flying them) were from the 160th Special Operations Aviation Regiment (Airborne). I looked all over the place, but this didn't seem to be included anywhere. In fact, the only divisions mentioned were the ones that were involved in the rescue. I would appreciate it someone a little more technologically savvy would add this to the article!
I saw that it was already in the article, but more attention should be paid this fact than to mention it in the production notes.
Aaah, valid point. I am in the infancy of my WikiEditing, and am not sure exactly how it should be changed. My point in posting this here was only a suggestion, to be followed through by someone a little more knowledgeable in both the correct format for the appriate edit, and in the actual subject itself. Lawilkin 17:45, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
I understand what you mean about its relevance to the movie. After a little research and a little "epiphany" of common sense, I realized that there is an actual article devoted to the Battle of Mogadishu. Which leads me to another concern: is it necessary to include an entire history on this movie page of the events in the battle when there is already a page of the actual events? Should these things be included in the movie article? Because it is possible that information relavent to the movie may be added to the page for the battle but not the movie page, thereby leaving the movie page not as accurate. I guess this might just be food for thought, or it is an issue that should be addressed if it hasn't been already! Lawilkin 20:30, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
My understanding (don't have references, sorry) is the film conveys the idea that it was petty politics quite strongly. But the reality of the situation was it was largely because the Americans decided to heard of on a mission without properly telling anyone. You can't blame the Pakistanis and Malaysias for not doing proper contigency planning when they weren't properly informed of the plans. How would the Pakistanis and Malaysians (and perhaps US 10 Mountain divison?) be expected to do contigency planning when they weren't informed of what the plans were? It would seem to me that it's common sense if you people to be able to quickly respond when the shit hits the fan, you need to tell them what your planning and hopefully work through a contingency plan beforehand not suddenly given them a call later and tell them your in deep shit and need their help and expect them to come up with a plan in 1 minute. Given the lack of this consultation and planning, my understanding is the Malaysian, Pakistanis and others had to spend time coming up with the rescue mission rather then implementing a pre-existing contigency plan as would occur in an ideal situation. Presemuably, heading off like cowboys (like the earlier US mission perhaps did) was more likely to result in another blood bath so they spent the time to come up with a well planed rescue mission which they apparently implemented with a resonable degree of success Nil Einne 19:58, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
I agree that simply wasn't the case, and that is extremly POV, and very factually questionable. For starters the it's highly unlikely the 10th Mt. Devision was alreday on standby, it's very costly and expensive to contiously be in that state. The idea of that scene was to convey because they weren't informed about the raid, they weren't ready to go out that quickly, and that they needed time to assemble and get ready. It never was about conveying polotics, both Bowden and Nolan stated that in the DVD commentary. Secondly, everything you are saying you are saying in hindsight. Obviously now they would have some sort of back-up plan, but you have no proof with you that there was a back up plan. The raid was expected to last only 30 minutes they would get in and get out. Not to mention these are some of the most well trained soldiers in the United States. It was unlikely they would anticipate disaster because it never happend before. --
ShortShadow
17:03, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
The recent addition on the lack of Somalis in the film is interesting, but I'm not sure what should go into the article about it. I can imagine it would have been rather difficult to get enough actual Somalis to serve as extras without going to Somalia. I'm not sure that would have been possible, even if the Somalis aren't the faceless bad guys of the film. Some things might have been done to humanize them, but it was based on the book, which I imagine didn't draw on extensive interviews of Somalis who participated in the battle. -- Habap 04:35, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
I removed some info regarding the "omission" of khat involvement from the film. Actually, Tom Sizemore's character briefly mentions khat being used and at the time when it is already afternoon. He says this soon after the mission briefing and when he is asked 'what's the matter'. ResurgamII 01:58, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
^ Whoever added that gave a misleading IMDB.com source which was only a list of the cast/crew of the film. Identifying who's actually Somali from that source is beyond me, unless you're relying on the sounds of the names (to find out the nationality).
I've watched the "On the Set" special features of the Black Hawk Down DVD, and the extras who play Somalis are only labeled as extras, nothing more. Unless this very short section of claims, especially the 'linguistics part' which is original research, can be verified it should be removed immediately. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by ResurgamII ( talk • contribs) 04:09, 31 January 2007 (UTC). ResurgamII 04:09, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
Some critics view the film as blatant propaganda on behalf of the US, or favoring military intervention in general (although the film and book clearly depict the intervention as basically humanitarian and military intervention without sufficient force as a disaster in the making). Unlike Scott's earlier film G.I. Jane, Black Hawk Down received the full cooperation of the US military and he allowed the military a veto over every aspect of the film in order to receive this level of military involvement. Some argue that this resulted in a biased finished product, although it is not clear whether the U.S. military asked Scott to modify or censor the film in any way and the military hierarchy and political decision-making process are not portrayed in a positive light.
^ Not a big deal, but weasel words( [1]) should be cleaned up. ResurgamII 18:36, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
The paragraph that starts "The film also takes creative license when it comes to Sgt. Eversmann's role in the battle" is more of a typical change made in order to make the movie better, and wasn't a part of "propaganda" nor was it a controversial change (the paragraph doesn't claim it is either) could the paragraph be moved to the production notes or some more appropriate place? Monkeyman334 16:24, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
Yes please. More weasel wording there.
ResurgamII
01:38, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
I watched this film at least five times (including extended version), still have no idea where he appears.-- Mato Rei 17:51, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
Pakistanis may have been accurately represented for their role as US-soldier rescurers, but Pakistan was leading military involvement there before the US even showed up. So I think the comment there is appropriate, no movie was every made about them. Monkeyman334 14:37, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
Pakistan is distant geographically and wouldn't endanger Mecca, see location of Saudi Arabia and learn more about their people and plight with Iran. That's like saying the 300 Spartans movie "Phalanx" was used when it is a pretty obviously remembered Blitzkrieg, proven ineffective when scouts contact hostile forces. See: Drones, this is not Osama — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.43.193.226 ( talk) 22:33, 7 February 2018 (UTC)
Article stated that the movie ranked 154th on its opening day (possibly true, the dollar amount is correct, it was only on four screen on opening day.) For its first weekend of wide release it made $28M USD, but this only places it at 24th in box office for the weekend? What were the other 23 films being screen in theatres that weekend (for a minimum US box office total of $644 million in that weekend) Or is that for the year? Or is that a comparision of opening weekends? I'm not up to tracking down the info, so I trimmed it down to just dollar amounts and if someone else wants to get the right citations, please do. Zotdragon 19:16, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
What notable things did hoot do in the event
Is there anyway to turn this section into a 'non-list' writing? It's very difficult to ready bullet by bullet, like some sort of random info. Maybe someone can fix this in their spare time. Let me also add that it is also overly long. ResurgamII 20:06, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
Image:Black hawk down poster.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
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"...Mohammed Farah Aidid was killed on August 1, 1996 during a battle with the militia of his rival and former ally Osman Ali Atto..."
I just recently watched the movie again and, according to the movie, Warlord Mohamed Farrah Aidid was killed in Mogadishu on 2 August 1996, not 1 August 1996. The exact text from the movie was: "Major General William F. Garrison accepted full responsibility for the outcome of the raid. On August 2, 1996, warlord Mohamed Farrah Aidid was killed in Mogadishu. The following day, General Garrison retired."
Now I don't know if the movie is wrong or the warlord's death is wrong, but it should be looked in to. Fiver2552 03:05, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
The movie is wrong he died on the 1st( ForeverDEAD 20:09, 15 September 2007 (UTC))
It wasn't a phosphorous grenade that exploded. It was the radio on his back. I'm going to go ahead and change it. 85.178.16.156 ( talk) 14:48, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
Perhaps some mention of the Hans Zimmer soundtrack? Just an idea. 70.130.139.144 21:36, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
In the movie Hoot was talking to a superior officer callsign Kilo 64 never shown in the movie , but i read some where that kilo64 was pilot of super61 , can any one confirm this ?--
Max Mayr
06:54, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
I readded the section which was inexplicible removed by User talk:Russell731 here [2]. While this section needs work (weasel words and it can probably be trimmed), it is mostly sourced so it's removal was even more unacceptable particularly considering the large trivia section most of which is unsourced. If someone wants to re-write it from scrtach, feel free but please actually do it. Don't remove a section and then don't re-write it. Nil Einne 00:53, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
Bob Dylan's song "Knockin' on Heaven's Door" was used in the first version of the movie trailer. This changed when the next version of the trailer got released. 88.215.155.90 18:33, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
Image:Blackhwdnphoto.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
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BetacommandBot 20:41, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
There's a tag at the top of the page saying the plot is too long. It's not just that, either. It reads like a narrative, very unencyclopedic ("on that fateful day"). I'm in the process of rewriting it to what I believe to be an appropriate length, then if consensus is that it should be longer, it can be gradually built up from there. Briefplan ( talk) 11:54, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
The "Other production information" section is getting ridiculous. Most if not all the information in it is unencyclopedic. I would just remove it, but I think it would upset a few people who have contributed. But I really don't think it should be there. Can we have a few opinions? Briefplan ( talk) 11:29, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
Ok, nobody has responded, so I will just delete the section. In order to follow the ideal of improve rather than delete, here are a few of the bullet points which I think are notable enough to be integrated back into the article, but only if they can be worked into the text. A couple of them can't fit in the article the way it is currently structured, but they might fit in future sections.
That's all in my opinion, but it's not a hard and fast list. I'll maybe have a go at writing a couple of them in. Briefplan ( talk) 02:27, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
The film won 2 awards in the 2001 Oscars, and was nominated for several others. However the article suggests, on casual reading, the awards/nominations were made for the 2002 Oscars. Given Oscars are awarded in (the March of) a given year for films released in the previous year, what's the correct nomenclature for an Oscar? Is it the year the statue was awarded or the respective award year? The back of the DVD sleeve for this film suggests the latter, since it states '... this Oscar - winning movie (2001-Film Editing and Sound) ...' Fizzackerly ( talk) 14:14, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Wow, talk about a whitewash. Does Ridley Scott have a full-time staffer blanking material from this article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.233.1.78 ( talk) 17:12, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
There is an edit war over the accusation of racism directed at this movie in The Daily Princetonian. Whether this publication is notable enough to warrant the inclusion of the accusation, I am not sure. I suggest the two parties discuss it here and everyone else joins in. Personally, I think the newspaper is a bit insignificant and its inclusion here is a little odd. Bretonbanquet ( talk) 20:41, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
My views on why this is not an acceptable source:
That's the basis for my opinion anyway. The source isn't even reporting a fact, it's presenting a very extreme and subjective POV by a college student. There is no evidence of this view being shared on any substantial level in the criticism community. Betty Logan ( talk) 20:58, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
An administrator has chimed in at the aforementioned Reliable Source report, and stated that the DP qualifies as a reliable source (as are many "school newspapers"). He went on to state that doesn't extend to opinions (which is what the edit involves), but the host of links I provided above more than settles any sort of "fringe theory" argument. Sounds like this has been wrapped up with a nice little bow, just in time for Christmas! Tool2Die4 ( talk) 21:57, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
A request was made for a 3rd opinion on this topic. I hope my thoughts can be helpful.
For a source to be considered reliable, there should be an expectation that its providing incorrect information would lead to negative consequences. A normal news journal or TV organisation will usually have staff who earn their living by working for such an organisation - write a very poor article and such a journalist might possibly expect their boss to want a discussion, or even a change in employment status. A person employed by a university who acts contrary to the institution's rules equally expects negative consequences. Someone employed by a company who gives unauthorised and incorrect information to the public expects trouble. A person working for a voluntary organisation or NGO would normally be a member because it's a cause in which they believed and will usually remain associated long-term - being thrown out is rarely desired.
A college newspaper staffed by students is inevitably a highly transient organisation. I understand the DP is independent of Princeton University, and thus the university would have very limited sanctions against its published articles. This is different to those school newspapers which have a formal association with the school. The students acting as journalists will normally do so on the side, with studies at the university taking the focus of their time. The consequences of writing a bad article are limited - one can still carry on with the degree course. The readership will have a high churn rate - perhaps 30% or more per year by virtue of university enrollments. Further, existing enrolled students would expect the editorial team and their policy to change on a far more regular basis (perhaps every semester) compared to other newspapers or media organisations.
For these 2 reasons - both the absence of significant penalty for articles that could be ill-considered, and the highly transient nature of the editorial team and their policy, I would have difficulty treating a the DP as a reliable source. Pmbma ( talk) 22:10, 24 December 2008 (UTC)Pmbma
Well there seems to be support for this citation to remain and be removed. All the relevant points have been made, and we should perhaps just vote on it and go with the majority. At least then the issue will be resolved one way or the other - at least then a sole party hasn't got a legitimate basis to alter it if a vote has been taken:
I have removed the DP citation now. The racism charge is made by a NYTimes and Entertainment Weekly critics with a response by Jerry Bruckheimer. If this isn't satisfactory please discuss any further changes you would like to be made here. I personally feel NYT and EW are adequate and reputable sources so hopefully this will suffice. Betty Logan ( talk) 06:08, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
With regards to the current warring [3], while I accept the anon is breaking the rules I can't help but feel he has a point. Is the "Philadelphia Weekly" a reliable source (having read its Wiki entry I am slightly dubious", and is it even necessary when we have citations from much stronger sources voicing more or less the same criticisms? Even if it is a legitimate inclusion do we really need to include a big chunk of the review into the article? It seems to devalue the collective strength of the sources without adding anything new to the criticism. Betty Logan ( talk) 17:45, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
How about this:
" Sean Burns, film critic for Philadelphia Weekly, wrote the following:
... Black Hawk Down begins to resemble Starship Troopers, only without all the klutzy satirical aspirations--and with black people instead of alien bugs.
That's where we run into the real trouble. I have no idea if Ridley Scott is a racist (though judging from Cuba Gooding Jr.'s scenes in Pearl Harbor I'm certain Jerry Bruckheimer is), but Black Hawk Down often plays like Birth of a Nation: The Next Generation.
"
I think it complements the other quotes without being redundant, I think it is pertinent to add it and I believe that the fact its source is "alternative" is quite a shallow argument to bring about -- and one that would just obliterate most other quotes by film critics of other sources, such as Village Voice or Ozu's film reviews.
I know it explicitly accuses Bruckenheimer of being a racist, but you see, racism isn't just an abstract phenomenon going on in the stratosphere, but something done and thought by people with names and surnames. It is a bold attempt by the author to make a point, and I stand by it. Walter Sobchak0 ( talk) 15:37, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
In the Charges of racism section, it says "Soon after Black Hawk Down's release, several organizations, including the Somali Justice Advocacy Center in California, called for its boycott and denounced what they felt was its brutal and dehumanizing depiction of Somalis." While true (at least according to the cited article), unless I missed it, the cited article doesn't actually say anything about racism. This might be a case of WP:OR and WP:SYN to include this information in a section about alleged racism. A Quest For Knowledge ( talk) 02:01, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
There's no cite for this claim, and the Entertainment Weekly's movie review was by Lisa Schwarzbaum [11] and the DVD review was by Erin Richter. [12] A Quest For Knowledge ( talk) 02:52, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
Although I've proofed the section and removed the subheads, I have not removed any statements as currently represented, despite some dodgy sourcing. This is not to be taken as condoning the section as it exists now.
Most films are not shot where they are set, don't capture the look or feel of the places and people to suit those who live there, and star actors who do not share their characters' ethnicity. Most people portrayed on the screen feel the film does not do justice to the reality, with reactions from dismissiveness to humiliation to deep-seated resentment.
To the general issue, show me the war film that doesn't condense characters and oversimplify details. How many war films present both sides as noble human beings? Even when one side could be said to be "right", does that mean all its soldiers were fine and upstanding individuals? There are complexities in war that could never possibly be examined in a film that also has to tell a story in two hours. That some films do a better job than others is one of the facts of moviemaking and could be said about films on any subject.
None of this is to say that the accusations are wrong, and in fact I have not seen the film. I'm simply raising the logical point that every article on a film based on a true story could have a section where people point out all the things that the film got wrong (often intentionally, as dramatic license or budgetary and screen-time constraints). There is also a degree to which all films could be (and in some circles are) called racist, homophobic, sexist, etc., because they focus on the experience of that society's straight men. Notice I don't say American men, because the same phenomenon exists in other cultures. That we note this at Wikipedia when it is notably and reliably sourced is reasonable. But to give it undue weight is against reason, perspective, and Wiki's own guidelines.
I would point out that one of the articles currently referenced for that section includes this:
The reality of the Somali character is captured in this movie," said Mohamed Ali Abdi, who had been living at Bar Ubah junction, where the battle took place. "But there is not a single word of the Somali language, no Somali music, nothing of our culture. This is absurd, but still they reproduced our sandy streets and battered buildings and the crazy way Somalis just kept on fighting"... (T)he young Somali men in the audience jumped up and cheered after an American helicopter was hit by Somali gunmen and crashed. "The movie is good but overdramatized," said Warsameh Abdi (a random young man in Somalia who had just watched the film)... Although the young men cheered whenever an American was hit, there was no reaction from the audience when a Somali character went down.
I point this out to counter the point made by the Philadelphia alternative newspaper's writer that Americans cheered at American "successes" in the film. The young Somali man seemed to understand and accept the limitations of the film better than these critics, and didn't get in the way of them enjoying it, even if Somali audience response was the mirror image of a Western audience response. Is either side right to cheer? This isn't a basketball game. Personally, I'd say no. Then again, there is a long history of war movies being made to rally public nationalism. I'm sure it's due in part to the way the films are made and in part to the fact that the majority of us are raised to be blindly nationalistic regardless of what we're shown. Why am I sure? Because both sides cheer this movie. That gives me no comfort. In fact, it seems like part of the problem. But to write this section of the article like the other half of this truth doesn't exist is to miss the point. Nationalism is racist, to some degree, no matter what your nation, and particularly in issues of war, international casualties and attacks on your own soil; war films just bring that point home. Something tells me those reviewers might well be saying the same things if they watched any of a number of war films generally considered classics today. Then again, they could simply review the news... Abrazame ( talk) 07:52, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
It seems reasonable to remove that "controversy" regarding the fact that the film does not accurately portray Somali culture. Having seen the movie multiple times, I am not aware of any instance where the movie attempts to portray Somali culture. It is certainly within the realm of possibility that the movie could have portrayed any number of elements, tangential the story it tells. The movie could have attempted to portray the nature of trade in the Bakara Market or the ins and outs of the local populations love of soccer. Since it does not attempt to portray those things, saying that it does not "accurately portray" them is not a criticism. The movie portrays the battle. There are many things that are not portrayed in the battle. To present this lack of portrayal as a criticism is, in my view, invalid on its face. - Gwopy 03:41, 2 January 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gwopy ( talk • contribs)
I removed the follwoing ELs because they seemed inappropriate per WP:EL, but they might be appropriate to work in as inline references, so here they are:
Novaseminary ( talk) 16:34, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
We need to find a reference for the real life identity of characters portrayed in the movie that are not in the credits. I'll check back in a while to see if any are added, but if they cannot be verified then the information should be deleted. Seaphoto Talk 21:47, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
Did this movie made any profits? I heard that a movie needs to gross three times its production costs in order to make any profits. The gross of this movie is less than twice the production costs. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.21.214.42 ( talk) 22:32, 25 December 2010 (UTC)
The plot section contains some details, that are not mentioned in the film or wrong. I guess they might originate from the Book
-- Murata ( talk) 03:35, 4 January 2013 (UTC) You can see from the maps in the Mark Bowden book, Eversman's chalk is dropped in the wrong place. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.13.72.135 ( talk) 19:25, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
JesseRafe insists on including in the lede that Bowden's book was based on a series of article he wrote for The Philadelphia Inquirer. I say that this information is appropriate for the article about the book, but there is no reason to mention it here, as this film is based on the book. I removed the information and he reverted, with no explanation given. Does anyone else have any opinions on this? --- The Old Jacobite The '45 17:54, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
I was wondering if you could put the real life characters look into it if they where true, but add pages, Matt Eversmann, John Grimes, Danny McKnight, Shawn Nelson, Mike Kurth, Kurt Schmid, John Beales, Ed Yurek, Jamie Smith, Dominick Pilla, Richard Kowalewski, Lance Twombly and Scott Galentine, Casey Joyce, Todd Blackburn, and Lorenzo Ruiz, and John Maddox, as well, if they are true could you add them if possible if they do have history, also Clifton Wolcott we forgot, 203.97.114.146 ( talk) 20:40, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
No doubt this film was not an accurate representation of the situation in Somalia - for three good reasons: it was made ten years later, it was made for an American audience, and it was not made in Somalia. However the statement that "At one screening in Somalia, young men cheered whenever an American soldier's character was shot on screen" is irrelevant to the accuracy debate. It is no surprise that Somali's sympathise with their own people rather than invaders. Royalcourtier ( talk) 09:26, 18 August 2015 (UTC)
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The cast list is too long. It is very rare to see a film article with every cast member listed. In this case, most of these people are not even identifiable. I propose that the cast list be reduced to the 10 or so most notable people. --- The Old Jacobite The '45 13:46, 7 January 2017 (UTC)
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The movie was mostly filmed in Morocco this is a known fact. In one of the scenes appear bottles of mineral water with the logo of an Israeli mineral water company, written both in English AND Hebrew. I doubt this is meant to be US military issue and I also doubt this logo is freely found in Morocco, especially with the Hebrew script. My conclusion is that this sequence was filmed in Israel in contrary to official filming locations. Could not find reliable sources to support this. Anyone knows?
This has way too much detail about individual soldiers. The discussion needs more distance and summary - it is not supposed to replace the article Battle of Mogadishu. Parkwells ( talk) 16:04, 15 September 2018 (UTC)
Agree that reference to Bowden's articles in The Philadelphia Inquirer should be moved to the article on the book, not the film. It's not the point here. He could be described as an embedded journalist, if there is a source for that. Parkwells ( talk) 16:04, 15 September 2018 (UTC)
The article says there were two of them, but does not expain what they are. Nor does there appear to be any link to CSO. Rwflammang ( talk) 18:59, 10 September 2023 (UTC)