This article is within the scope of WikiProject Melanesia, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Melanesia on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.MelanesiaWikipedia:WikiProject MelanesiaTemplate:WikiProject MelanesiaMelanesia articles
Black-faced cuckooshrike is part of WikiProject Birds, an attempt at creating a standardized, informative and easy-to-use ornithological resource. If you would like to participate, visit the
project page, where you can join the
discussion and see a list of open tasks. Please do not
substitute this template.BirdsWikipedia:WikiProject BirdsTemplate:WikiProject Birdsbird articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Indonesia, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Indonesia and
Indonesia-related topics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.IndonesiaWikipedia:WikiProject IndonesiaTemplate:WikiProject IndonesiaIndonesia articles
Black-faced cuckooshrike is within the scope of WikiProject Australia, which aims to improve Wikipedia's coverage of
Australia and
Australia-related topics. If you would like to participate, visit the
project page.AustraliaWikipedia:WikiProject AustraliaTemplate:WikiProject AustraliaAustralia articles
Hi, not sure but the image in the taxobox looks like a juvenile or otherwise a race I'm not familiar with. I'm from Sydney, the photo I took was from Perth and they have a wholly black face there.
cheers
Cas Liber 10:11, 2 June 2006 (UTC)reply
Requested move
The following discussion is an archived discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the move request was: Move.Cúchullaint/
c 23:28, 10 February 2014 (UTC)reply
Black-faced Cuckoo-shrike → Black-faced Cuckooshrike – To have consistency with IOC English names and consistency with other Wiki pages for species of this genus. WP Birds have a policy of using IOC names unless there is a very good reason not to.
Snowman (
talk) 10:56, 31 January 2014 (UTC)reply
I presume that your opinion is because of your preference of lower case letters in bird names; however, the Wiki and many authorities use upper case in bird names. see
Wikipedia:NCCAPS#Organisms.
Snowman (
talk) 19:31, 6 February 2014 (UTC)reply
Support move as proposed.
- WPGA2345 - ☛ 03:33, 5 February 2014 (UTC
Support move as proposed.
Pvmoutside (
talk) 00:09, 10 February 2014 (UTC)reply
Support move as proposed. What's the point of having a naming convention if it is not applied?
Maias (
talk) 05:17, 10 February 2014 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a
move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
Requested move 11 February 2014
The following discussion is an archived discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the move request was: not moved. There is a clear consensus to retain the unhyphenated title. This RM should actually have been speedily closed. It is a misuse of process to open an RM discussion to revert a decision made at an RM close only 7 hours earlier. In future, if editors disagree with the outcome of an RM discussion, please open a move review rather than just starting a re-run of the previous discussion. --
BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (
contribs) 22:31, 20 February 2014 (UTC)reply
Black-faced Cuckooshrike → Black-faced Cuckoo-shrike – The above reason the the move to Black-faced Cuckooshrike was flawed, no project can control what articles will use, unless there is a strong consensus to do so (this would see it being part of the MOS).
WP:COMMONNAME has more weight then a project "policy", meaning that
Black-faced Cuckoo-shrike is the correct spelling in the country of origin.
Bidgee (
talk) 06:40, 11 February 2014 (UTC)reply
Comment - I closed the last RM, which had no objection, and I want to point out that using IOC names is indeed recommended by several guidelines, it's not just a WikiProject Birds convention. It's part of
Wikipedia:Naming conventions (fauna), and
Wikipedia:NCCAPS#Organisms was specifically brought up in the last discussion. In the last discussion no evidence was presented that "Black-faced Cuckoo-shrike" was the
common name;
Bidgee, can you supply some evidence supporting that claim?--
Cúchullaint/
c 18:27, 11 February 2014 (UTC)reply
Conventions put in place by self interest groups, that wasn't done via a site wide discussion and consensus. It's quite obvious the naming convention needs a major revamp, section about IOC has no support from the community but is just
assumed that it isn't controversial for common names.
"Index of Bird Species: Common Names". Australian Field Ornithology. 26 (4): 160. December 2009.
ISSN1448-0107.
Debus, S. J. S.; Ford, H. A.; Page, D. (2006). "Bird Communities in Remnant Woodland on the New England Tablelands, New South Wales". Pacific Conservation Biology. 12 (1): 56.
ISSN1038-2097.
Batianoff, George N.; Cornelius, N. J.; Page, D. (2005). "Birds of Raine Island: Population Trends, Breeding Behaviour and Nesting Habitats". Proceedings of the Royal Society of Queensland. 112: 56.
ISSN0080-469X.
Freeman, Amanda N. D. (2009). "Bird use of revegetated sites along a creek connecting rainforest remnants". Emu. 109 (4): 334.
doi:
10.1071/MU09089. {{
cite journal}}: Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (
help)
Briggs, S. V. (2007). "Structures of bird communities in woodland remnants in central New South Wales, Australia". Australian Journal of Zoology. 55 (1): 33.
doi:
10.1071/ZO06064. {{
cite journal}}: Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (
help)
SUTTON, R. H. (September 1983). "Poxvirus infection in a black-faced cuckoo-shrike (Coracina novaehollandiae)". Australian Veterinary Journal. 60 (9): 280–281.
doi:
10.1111/j.1751-0813.1983.tb07110.x. {{
cite journal}}: Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (
help)
Fraser, Ian (2013). Australian bird names: a complete guide. Collingwood, Vic.: CSIRO Publishing. p. 223.
ISBN9780643104693. {{
cite book}}: Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (
help)
Campbell, Iain (2013). Wildlife of Australia. UK: Princeton University Press. p. 222.
ISBN9780691153537. {{
cite book}}: Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (
help)
Boles, authors, Les Christidis ; Walter E. (2007). Systematics and taxonomy of Australian birds. Collingwood, Vic.: CSIRO Publishing. p. 34.
ISBN9780643065116.{{
cite book}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (
link)
Tzaros, Chris (2005). Wildlife of the box-ironbark country. Melbourne: CSIRO Publishing. p. 142.
ISBN9780643069671. {{
cite book}}: Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (
help)
there are more sources out there but I think this is enough to show that the IOC's naming isn't yet WP:COMMONNAME in Australia.
Bidgee (
talk) 03:26, 13 February 2014 (UTC)reply
Oppose - We have just had consensus to move this article to where it is now; let it rest.
Maias (
talk) 03:24, 13 February 2014 (UTC)reply
Support – The commoname argument seems compelling here, with over 90% of book hits having the hyphenated cuckoo-shrike. This is the "very good reason not to" that the bird title guideline allows for. Well,
n-grams says not 90%, but a vast majority still.
With caps it's more complicated; but still overwhelmingly hyphenated; "Cuckooshrike" is rising to become a contender eventually, probably.
Dicklyon (
talk) 05:01, 13 February 2014 (UTC)reply
Your search only covers use up to 2008. Using a standard web-search for "Black-faced Cuckoo-shrike" indicated 34,800 hits, and for "Black-faced Cuckooshrike" 179,000 hits (both search terms entered within inverted commas). Using the Ngram Viewer with (Black-faced Cuckooshrike) and (Black-faced Cuckoo-shrike) I found about equal number of hits for the two terms. There results are again only up to 2008, which seems to be a limit of the Ngram. I used both search terms on Ngram within round brackets, which are necessary owing the the hyphen.
Snowman (
talk) 15:42, 13 February 2014 (UTC)reply
Oppose. To have consistency with IOC English names and consistency with other Wiki pages for species of this genus. WP Birds have a policy of using IOC names unless there is a very good reason not to.
Snowman (
talk) 14:11, 13 February 2014 (UTC)reply
Note that this rationale is a copy of my previous nomination to move this page to "Black-faced Cuckooshrike", which was closed on 10 February 2014, with the support of three (not including myself as nominator) and no one opposing.
Snowman (
talk) 14:20, 13 February 2014 (UTC)reply
Oppose country of origin is a flawed argument since many birds have different English names in the various countries in which they occur. A long-running Common Loon v Great Northern Diver was resolved when we agreed to accept IOC name as standard. Country of origin could also lead to different members of the same genus having different naming styles because they occur in different countries. There at least 50 species named as
cuckooshrikes, it's nonsense to have one named in a different style to all the other simply because it occurs in Australia. Petty parochialism is no substitute for consistency Jimfbleak - talk to me? 14:31, 13 February 2014 (UTC)reply
Oppose: As the previous poster points out, there are at least 50 species of cuckooshrikes, and to have one of them listed with a dash while the others would be wildly inconsistent....
Pvmoutside (
talk) 15:04, 13 February 2014 (UTC)reply
Oppose: per Jimfbleak. Standards are not a bad thing.
FunkMonk (
talk) 17:23, 13 February 2014 (UTC)reply
Oppose: would be a mess if we did not follow a single standard. Can live with redirects and mentions of alternates in the lead although I personally prefer the hyphenated form.
Shyamal (
talk) 13:21, 16 February 2014 (UTC)reply
Discussion
Any additional comments:
The recent move to "Black-faced Cuckooshrike" was made following a formal move request which was open to all editors and readers; hence, I see no evidence supporting the allegation that the move to "Black-faced Cuckooshrike" was controlled by WP Birds. Of course, the consensus could have gone either way and clearly the discussion was not controlled by WP Birds nor myself as the nominator. To me, is seems that move to "Black-faced Cuckooshrike" was made because of the consensus to use the most sensible and least confusing name for this en Wiki species page. "Black-faced Cuckooshrike" it is consistent with the naming convention used by WP Birds.
Snowman (
talk) 14:11, 13 February 2014 (UTC)reply
Is there a point to that comment? I would have thought that it was obvious that bird project members would be particularly interested in how birds are named, especially when there is a parochial attempt to move one article out of line with all the related species Jimfbleak - talk to me? 10:38, 14 February 2014 (UTC)reply
There is
WP:ENGVAR and
WP:COMMONNAME that has more weight then a project's naming convention. You've ignored the fact that the spelling of "cuckooshrike" is currently "cuckoo-shrike" in Australia (even Government sources use it with the hyphen).
Bidgee (
talk) 10:56, 14 February 2014 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a
move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Melanesia, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Melanesia on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.MelanesiaWikipedia:WikiProject MelanesiaTemplate:WikiProject MelanesiaMelanesia articles
Black-faced cuckooshrike is part of WikiProject Birds, an attempt at creating a standardized, informative and easy-to-use ornithological resource. If you would like to participate, visit the
project page, where you can join the
discussion and see a list of open tasks. Please do not
substitute this template.BirdsWikipedia:WikiProject BirdsTemplate:WikiProject Birdsbird articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Indonesia, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Indonesia and
Indonesia-related topics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.IndonesiaWikipedia:WikiProject IndonesiaTemplate:WikiProject IndonesiaIndonesia articles
Black-faced cuckooshrike is within the scope of WikiProject Australia, which aims to improve Wikipedia's coverage of
Australia and
Australia-related topics. If you would like to participate, visit the
project page.AustraliaWikipedia:WikiProject AustraliaTemplate:WikiProject AustraliaAustralia articles
Hi, not sure but the image in the taxobox looks like a juvenile or otherwise a race I'm not familiar with. I'm from Sydney, the photo I took was from Perth and they have a wholly black face there.
cheers
Cas Liber 10:11, 2 June 2006 (UTC)reply
Requested move
The following discussion is an archived discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the move request was: Move.Cúchullaint/
c 23:28, 10 February 2014 (UTC)reply
Black-faced Cuckoo-shrike → Black-faced Cuckooshrike – To have consistency with IOC English names and consistency with other Wiki pages for species of this genus. WP Birds have a policy of using IOC names unless there is a very good reason not to.
Snowman (
talk) 10:56, 31 January 2014 (UTC)reply
I presume that your opinion is because of your preference of lower case letters in bird names; however, the Wiki and many authorities use upper case in bird names. see
Wikipedia:NCCAPS#Organisms.
Snowman (
talk) 19:31, 6 February 2014 (UTC)reply
Support move as proposed.
- WPGA2345 - ☛ 03:33, 5 February 2014 (UTC
Support move as proposed.
Pvmoutside (
talk) 00:09, 10 February 2014 (UTC)reply
Support move as proposed. What's the point of having a naming convention if it is not applied?
Maias (
talk) 05:17, 10 February 2014 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a
move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
Requested move 11 February 2014
The following discussion is an archived discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the move request was: not moved. There is a clear consensus to retain the unhyphenated title. This RM should actually have been speedily closed. It is a misuse of process to open an RM discussion to revert a decision made at an RM close only 7 hours earlier. In future, if editors disagree with the outcome of an RM discussion, please open a move review rather than just starting a re-run of the previous discussion. --
BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (
contribs) 22:31, 20 February 2014 (UTC)reply
Black-faced Cuckooshrike → Black-faced Cuckoo-shrike – The above reason the the move to Black-faced Cuckooshrike was flawed, no project can control what articles will use, unless there is a strong consensus to do so (this would see it being part of the MOS).
WP:COMMONNAME has more weight then a project "policy", meaning that
Black-faced Cuckoo-shrike is the correct spelling in the country of origin.
Bidgee (
talk) 06:40, 11 February 2014 (UTC)reply
Comment - I closed the last RM, which had no objection, and I want to point out that using IOC names is indeed recommended by several guidelines, it's not just a WikiProject Birds convention. It's part of
Wikipedia:Naming conventions (fauna), and
Wikipedia:NCCAPS#Organisms was specifically brought up in the last discussion. In the last discussion no evidence was presented that "Black-faced Cuckoo-shrike" was the
common name;
Bidgee, can you supply some evidence supporting that claim?--
Cúchullaint/
c 18:27, 11 February 2014 (UTC)reply
Conventions put in place by self interest groups, that wasn't done via a site wide discussion and consensus. It's quite obvious the naming convention needs a major revamp, section about IOC has no support from the community but is just
assumed that it isn't controversial for common names.
"Index of Bird Species: Common Names". Australian Field Ornithology. 26 (4): 160. December 2009.
ISSN1448-0107.
Debus, S. J. S.; Ford, H. A.; Page, D. (2006). "Bird Communities in Remnant Woodland on the New England Tablelands, New South Wales". Pacific Conservation Biology. 12 (1): 56.
ISSN1038-2097.
Batianoff, George N.; Cornelius, N. J.; Page, D. (2005). "Birds of Raine Island: Population Trends, Breeding Behaviour and Nesting Habitats". Proceedings of the Royal Society of Queensland. 112: 56.
ISSN0080-469X.
Freeman, Amanda N. D. (2009). "Bird use of revegetated sites along a creek connecting rainforest remnants". Emu. 109 (4): 334.
doi:
10.1071/MU09089. {{
cite journal}}: Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (
help)
Briggs, S. V. (2007). "Structures of bird communities in woodland remnants in central New South Wales, Australia". Australian Journal of Zoology. 55 (1): 33.
doi:
10.1071/ZO06064. {{
cite journal}}: Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (
help)
SUTTON, R. H. (September 1983). "Poxvirus infection in a black-faced cuckoo-shrike (Coracina novaehollandiae)". Australian Veterinary Journal. 60 (9): 280–281.
doi:
10.1111/j.1751-0813.1983.tb07110.x. {{
cite journal}}: Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (
help)
Fraser, Ian (2013). Australian bird names: a complete guide. Collingwood, Vic.: CSIRO Publishing. p. 223.
ISBN9780643104693. {{
cite book}}: Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (
help)
Campbell, Iain (2013). Wildlife of Australia. UK: Princeton University Press. p. 222.
ISBN9780691153537. {{
cite book}}: Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (
help)
Boles, authors, Les Christidis ; Walter E. (2007). Systematics and taxonomy of Australian birds. Collingwood, Vic.: CSIRO Publishing. p. 34.
ISBN9780643065116.{{
cite book}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (
link)
Tzaros, Chris (2005). Wildlife of the box-ironbark country. Melbourne: CSIRO Publishing. p. 142.
ISBN9780643069671. {{
cite book}}: Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (
help)
there are more sources out there but I think this is enough to show that the IOC's naming isn't yet WP:COMMONNAME in Australia.
Bidgee (
talk) 03:26, 13 February 2014 (UTC)reply
Oppose - We have just had consensus to move this article to where it is now; let it rest.
Maias (
talk) 03:24, 13 February 2014 (UTC)reply
Support – The commoname argument seems compelling here, with over 90% of book hits having the hyphenated cuckoo-shrike. This is the "very good reason not to" that the bird title guideline allows for. Well,
n-grams says not 90%, but a vast majority still.
With caps it's more complicated; but still overwhelmingly hyphenated; "Cuckooshrike" is rising to become a contender eventually, probably.
Dicklyon (
talk) 05:01, 13 February 2014 (UTC)reply
Your search only covers use up to 2008. Using a standard web-search for "Black-faced Cuckoo-shrike" indicated 34,800 hits, and for "Black-faced Cuckooshrike" 179,000 hits (both search terms entered within inverted commas). Using the Ngram Viewer with (Black-faced Cuckooshrike) and (Black-faced Cuckoo-shrike) I found about equal number of hits for the two terms. There results are again only up to 2008, which seems to be a limit of the Ngram. I used both search terms on Ngram within round brackets, which are necessary owing the the hyphen.
Snowman (
talk) 15:42, 13 February 2014 (UTC)reply
Oppose. To have consistency with IOC English names and consistency with other Wiki pages for species of this genus. WP Birds have a policy of using IOC names unless there is a very good reason not to.
Snowman (
talk) 14:11, 13 February 2014 (UTC)reply
Note that this rationale is a copy of my previous nomination to move this page to "Black-faced Cuckooshrike", which was closed on 10 February 2014, with the support of three (not including myself as nominator) and no one opposing.
Snowman (
talk) 14:20, 13 February 2014 (UTC)reply
Oppose country of origin is a flawed argument since many birds have different English names in the various countries in which they occur. A long-running Common Loon v Great Northern Diver was resolved when we agreed to accept IOC name as standard. Country of origin could also lead to different members of the same genus having different naming styles because they occur in different countries. There at least 50 species named as
cuckooshrikes, it's nonsense to have one named in a different style to all the other simply because it occurs in Australia. Petty parochialism is no substitute for consistency Jimfbleak - talk to me? 14:31, 13 February 2014 (UTC)reply
Oppose: As the previous poster points out, there are at least 50 species of cuckooshrikes, and to have one of them listed with a dash while the others would be wildly inconsistent....
Pvmoutside (
talk) 15:04, 13 February 2014 (UTC)reply
Oppose: per Jimfbleak. Standards are not a bad thing.
FunkMonk (
talk) 17:23, 13 February 2014 (UTC)reply
Oppose: would be a mess if we did not follow a single standard. Can live with redirects and mentions of alternates in the lead although I personally prefer the hyphenated form.
Shyamal (
talk) 13:21, 16 February 2014 (UTC)reply
Discussion
Any additional comments:
The recent move to "Black-faced Cuckooshrike" was made following a formal move request which was open to all editors and readers; hence, I see no evidence supporting the allegation that the move to "Black-faced Cuckooshrike" was controlled by WP Birds. Of course, the consensus could have gone either way and clearly the discussion was not controlled by WP Birds nor myself as the nominator. To me, is seems that move to "Black-faced Cuckooshrike" was made because of the consensus to use the most sensible and least confusing name for this en Wiki species page. "Black-faced Cuckooshrike" it is consistent with the naming convention used by WP Birds.
Snowman (
talk) 14:11, 13 February 2014 (UTC)reply
Is there a point to that comment? I would have thought that it was obvious that bird project members would be particularly interested in how birds are named, especially when there is a parochial attempt to move one article out of line with all the related species Jimfbleak - talk to me? 10:38, 14 February 2014 (UTC)reply
There is
WP:ENGVAR and
WP:COMMONNAME that has more weight then a project's naming convention. You've ignored the fact that the spelling of "cuckooshrike" is currently "cuckoo-shrike" in Australia (even Government sources use it with the hyphen).
Bidgee (
talk) 10:56, 14 February 2014 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a
move review. No further edits should be made to this section.