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Are there any theories as why we tend to import Italian food words into English in the plural form: biscotti, porcini, panini, etc? Let alone all the pasta shapes—though there you could argue, I suppose, that a spaghetto is not much use to a cook. — Ian Spackman 16:35, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm answering ten years later! Because that's how we come across these words, as plurals on packets of penne, spaghetti, biscotti, porcini etc. Another interesting question would be why we are unconscious that the names of pasta shapes are plurals and use them as singulars ("When the spaghetti is cooked..."). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Campolongo ( talk • contribs) 10:24, 13 September 2016 (UTC)
Gosh, just one year later than Campolongo (and 11 after Ian Spackman! "Spaghetti", "ravioli", etc. aren't singular in English, but numberless: they have no plurals. Do we ever say "spaghettis" or "raviolis"? Only when we mean different kinds of spaghetti or of ravioli. They're what we call mass nouns or "non-count nouns". -- Thnidu ( talk) 06:14, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
I've certainly heard raviolis in the U.S., and just last week cannolis. The curious one of late in terms of source is panini, as they/it do not normally come prepackaged with a plural label such as spaghetti, ravioli, etc. But sure enough, panini is the default form in North America, and is treated as singular rather than non-count, so that the normal plural is paninis. And then there's the reverse, the label lasagne anglicized to a singular in form, lasagna. 2600:8800:A400:37E0:3543:F1FF:AEA0:1491 ( talk) 13:45, 18 April 2018 (UTC)
Took out the second "traditionally" in the first paragraph. It appears too quickly after the first.
Cantuccini appears to be identical or similar to the traditional Catalan carquinyolis. Are there any reliable sources about the origin of this cookie? Perhaps Italy or Spain/Catalonia? Libido 21:50, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
I removed the following addition as it has no source. If it is accurate, significant, and can be sourced, it should probably become a separate article.
— Ian Spackman ( talk) 04:57, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
There is a widely cited association of Pliny the Elder with Biscotti, but I have not been able to find a citation to any specific passage in Pliny. For a discussion see this blog entry. It seems that the present claim that " Pliny the Elder boasted that such goods would be edible for centuries" needs to be qualified unless a reliable source can be found. It may be significant that this claim is not found in the parallel articles in the other Western European wikipedias. SteveMcCluskey ( talk) 19:11, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
"Biscotto" is the italian word for "cookie" - as in, any type of cookie. Why this specific cookie is named after the generic word for it? 82.111.146.18 ( talk) 09:23, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
Pepperbeast has reverted an edit of mine in § Name as "unnecessary". Rather than edit warring I am raising the subject for discussion here, where Pepperbeast can respond and others can comment.
Here is the paragraph as it was before my edit and as it is now, after the reversion; the sentences on a grey background are not involved in the reversion and do not affect its meaning:
Here is my version, which I summarized as Balance descriptions of the British and American senses of the word "biscuit":
If the British sense of the word "biscuit" is worth mentioning, the American one is also. My edit covers both dialects in a balanced manner.
Further down, and not involved in the reversion, the one-sentence subsection History: North America defines the "North American" use of "biscotti" differently, and wrongly:
In my almost seventy years I have lived in New York, Massachusetts, Berkeley, and Philadelphia, and I have never heard "biscotti" used for anything but "twice-baked, oblong-shaped, dry, crunchy" baked goods. (I can't speak for any part of Canada.) Merriam-Webster defines thus:
I'm editing that subsection to match.
-- Thnidu ( talk) 17:51, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
It has been proposed in this section that
Biscotti be
renamed and moved to
Cantucci. A bot will list this discussion on the requested moves current discussions subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the closing instructions). Please base arguments on article title policy, and keep discussion succinct and civil. Please use {{
subst:requested move}} . Do not use {{
requested move/dated}} directly. |
Biscotti → cantucci – this page (including the images) refers to "cantucci" ( https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantuccio), not to "biscotti" ( https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biscotto). Given that in Italy there are different types of biscotti, it's profoundly wrong to refer only to cantucci on a page with a name that includes all types of biscotti in Italy; if a group of non-Italians people go to Italy and ask for a biscotto, they don't just get cantucci. In conclusion, this page isn't very encyclopedic at the moment. JacktheBrown ( talk) 06:01, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
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Are there any theories as why we tend to import Italian food words into English in the plural form: biscotti, porcini, panini, etc? Let alone all the pasta shapes—though there you could argue, I suppose, that a spaghetto is not much use to a cook. — Ian Spackman 16:35, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm answering ten years later! Because that's how we come across these words, as plurals on packets of penne, spaghetti, biscotti, porcini etc. Another interesting question would be why we are unconscious that the names of pasta shapes are plurals and use them as singulars ("When the spaghetti is cooked..."). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Campolongo ( talk • contribs) 10:24, 13 September 2016 (UTC)
Gosh, just one year later than Campolongo (and 11 after Ian Spackman! "Spaghetti", "ravioli", etc. aren't singular in English, but numberless: they have no plurals. Do we ever say "spaghettis" or "raviolis"? Only when we mean different kinds of spaghetti or of ravioli. They're what we call mass nouns or "non-count nouns". -- Thnidu ( talk) 06:14, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
I've certainly heard raviolis in the U.S., and just last week cannolis. The curious one of late in terms of source is panini, as they/it do not normally come prepackaged with a plural label such as spaghetti, ravioli, etc. But sure enough, panini is the default form in North America, and is treated as singular rather than non-count, so that the normal plural is paninis. And then there's the reverse, the label lasagne anglicized to a singular in form, lasagna. 2600:8800:A400:37E0:3543:F1FF:AEA0:1491 ( talk) 13:45, 18 April 2018 (UTC)
Took out the second "traditionally" in the first paragraph. It appears too quickly after the first.
Cantuccini appears to be identical or similar to the traditional Catalan carquinyolis. Are there any reliable sources about the origin of this cookie? Perhaps Italy or Spain/Catalonia? Libido 21:50, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
I removed the following addition as it has no source. If it is accurate, significant, and can be sourced, it should probably become a separate article.
— Ian Spackman ( talk) 04:57, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
There is a widely cited association of Pliny the Elder with Biscotti, but I have not been able to find a citation to any specific passage in Pliny. For a discussion see this blog entry. It seems that the present claim that " Pliny the Elder boasted that such goods would be edible for centuries" needs to be qualified unless a reliable source can be found. It may be significant that this claim is not found in the parallel articles in the other Western European wikipedias. SteveMcCluskey ( talk) 19:11, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
"Biscotto" is the italian word for "cookie" - as in, any type of cookie. Why this specific cookie is named after the generic word for it? 82.111.146.18 ( talk) 09:23, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
Pepperbeast has reverted an edit of mine in § Name as "unnecessary". Rather than edit warring I am raising the subject for discussion here, where Pepperbeast can respond and others can comment.
Here is the paragraph as it was before my edit and as it is now, after the reversion; the sentences on a grey background are not involved in the reversion and do not affect its meaning:
Here is my version, which I summarized as Balance descriptions of the British and American senses of the word "biscuit":
If the British sense of the word "biscuit" is worth mentioning, the American one is also. My edit covers both dialects in a balanced manner.
Further down, and not involved in the reversion, the one-sentence subsection History: North America defines the "North American" use of "biscotti" differently, and wrongly:
In my almost seventy years I have lived in New York, Massachusetts, Berkeley, and Philadelphia, and I have never heard "biscotti" used for anything but "twice-baked, oblong-shaped, dry, crunchy" baked goods. (I can't speak for any part of Canada.) Merriam-Webster defines thus:
I'm editing that subsection to match.
-- Thnidu ( talk) 17:51, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
It has been proposed in this section that
Biscotti be
renamed and moved to
Cantucci. A bot will list this discussion on the requested moves current discussions subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the closing instructions). Please base arguments on article title policy, and keep discussion succinct and civil. Please use {{
subst:requested move}} . Do not use {{
requested move/dated}} directly. |
Biscotti → cantucci – this page (including the images) refers to "cantucci" ( https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantuccio), not to "biscotti" ( https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biscotto). Given that in Italy there are different types of biscotti, it's profoundly wrong to refer only to cantucci on a page with a name that includes all types of biscotti in Italy; if a group of non-Italians people go to Italy and ask for a biscotto, they don't just get cantucci. In conclusion, this page isn't very encyclopedic at the moment. JacktheBrown ( talk) 06:01, 19 July 2024 (UTC)