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RPG Hamaca — Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.243.10.202 ( talk) 11:19, 10 June 2015 (UTC) There's an unattributed line about tool use leading to bipedalism, which seems odd considering some pre-australopithecines were bipedal, and yet tool use is completely unevidenced before A. garhi. Can we just delete this?
It is absurd that the AAH gets so much attention on this page, when it's a main article for an important concept in paleoanthropology and animal evolution. In any case, I support this removal of Algis' work. He's hardly a big name in anthropology, and is a primary source discussing a single experiment. Wikipedia should be based on secondary sources - review articles and the like - making this inclusion inappropriate particularly when there are better sources from more reputable authors (who haven't tried to spam the idea across wikipedia). WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules: simple/ complex 14:11, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
I made this change because AAH is not the only hypothesis that talks about wading bipedalism. Wrangham, Cunnane and Niemitz are professionals in their own fields, their theories have good evidences and are only loosely related to AAH. Niemitz even rejects AAH, grouping him with it is unfair to him. Even if AAH is to be debunked as a whole, the plausibility of these wading models should not be affected. (BTW, wading in shallow water is a *terrestrial* locomotion, not aquatic/semi-aquatic.)
You may object my editing using UNDUE, but please look at other models. Many of them are discredited (e.g. stone tool carrying -- wrong evolutionary time) or unconvincing on key assumptions (e.g. monogamy in provisioning model). Even the thermoregulatory model (in fact one of my favorite theory) also lose ground becuase Ardi & Lucy didn't live on a hot dry grassland (so it isn't the initial stimulus = isn't the origin). These hypotheses are out-dated but still enjoy "full coverage", there's no reason why only water-related ideas have coverage reduced (I don't suggest to reduce those out-dated hypotheses, they're important historical ideas). Chakazul ( talk) 17:48, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
The entire last sentence of the first paragraph is pretty suspect - there's certainly no way to claim it's had "the most" public interest, and the length of time an idea has been around means absolutely nothing. It also notably lacks any strong note about *why* AAH and wading theories are rejected (lack of evidence, rarity of aquatic movement of any type in modern apes, etc.). I also don't like the "name dropping" - I think it's unencyclopedic, and smacks of promoting names over ideas. Mokele ( talk) 15:40, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
Can mention of Persistence hunting be made in this article? It seems like a good way to compare the advantages of bipedal motion, particularly in relation to the disadvantages of quadripedal running and it's effect on thermoregulation in animals that must pant. Roidroid ( talk) 13:08, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
The section needs a simple statement informing readers about the absence of scientific standing for this "theory". If we remove that statement, then we need to remove Morgan's "theory" altogether, as per WP:UNDUE: "Generally, the views of tiny minorities should not be included at all, except perhaps in a "see also" to an article about those specific views. For example, the article on the Earth does not directly mention modern support for the Flat Earth concept, the view of a distinct minority; to do so would give undue weight to it." Morgan's "theory" is as credible as a flat earth "theory".
The problem here is one that has arisen in other articles, that the fringe belief has become popularised despite being held by no credible scientists. As a result it really should addressed in the article since it is clearly notable. But it can’t be simply added without comment because it is a fringe theory. Mark Marathon ( talk) 02:33, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
All quoted hypotheses do not address the issue of the appropriate control of the newly emerging posture. They take for granted the ability to control upright bipedal locomotion with additional trunk rotations and head, eye and forelimb movements. To perform locomotion and assume a certain posture, the basic condition (conditio sine qua non) is to ensure the stability of the body. In a recently published article: Significance of adequate postural control in the appearance of habitual upright bipedal locomotion, Sekulic et al. Medical Hypotheses 2012; 79: 564-71 new hypothesis was published. Analysis of qualitative indicators of stability of the body during different types of locomotion in primates suggests that bipedal locomotion is not variation of some other type of locomotion. Transition from quadrupedal to bipedal locomotion is accompanied by a qualitative difference in body stability. Because of assuming an upright bipedal posture, the center of mass is lifted, the surface of the base of support is reduced, and the body structure does not provide passive stability in relation to moments of force of the body around Y-axis (quadrupedal mammals already loosed stability provided by body construction around X and Z axis) . Additional head movements, trunk rotations, forelimb manipulations with objects and surveying the surroundings are necessary for survival, but they increase the degree of freedom of movement and further complicate the task of maintaining balance in the case of a postural change from erect quadrupedal to erect bipedal. This article presents a hypothesis that the transition from quadrupedal to habitual upright bipedal locomotion was caused by qualitative changes in the nervous system that allowed controlling the more demanding type of locomotion. The ability to control a more demanding posture increases possibilities of interactions between the organism and the complex environment and consequently increases the survival rate, breeding possibilities, and chances for occupying a new environmental niche. Existing data show that ability to execute the more demanding type of locomotion was made possible because of changes in the frontal lobe and pyramidal system. Only after the more demanding posture was enabled by changes in the nervous system, could advantages of bipedal over quadrupedal locomotion be utilized, including better scanning of the environment, carrying food and infants, simultaneous upper extremity movements and observation of the environment, limitless manipulation of objects with upper extremities above the individual, and less space for rotating around the Z-axis. The aforementioned advantages of habitual bipedal over quadrupedal locomotion are present in physically complex environments, such as the forest, which is associated with the appearance of habitual bipedal locomotion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sekulic1965 ( talk • contribs) 08:07, 11 April 2014 (UTC) Sekulic1965 ( talk) 08:26, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
I think that in the Savannah Based Theory section it would be worth mentioning something about how bipedalism in the savannah would have helped regulated body temperature by reducing the surface area of the body exposed to the hot savannah sun. The section of the Savannah theory that talks about the fossils having curved fingers suggesting bipedalism adapted to arboreal life could be its own section. In that section it could be mentioned that the arboreal bipedalism could have evolved from upright running in the trees aided by using the arms to grasp braches for balance. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pallotta.8 ( talk • contribs) 23:05, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
This article is great in many ways but can be improved in some parts. For one, it could mention how one of the purposes of the human foot is for propulsion. It talks about how it was built to support weight and maintain balance, but it does not mention the importance of shock absorption. If it weren't for shock absorption our joints could be worn down and not last as long. Also, the article could mention how the human foot evolved under selection to be a flexible rather than stiff structure.
[1]
Christine K. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Koporc.3 ( talk • contribs) 06:24, 1 October 2014 (UTC)
Response: I can see your point! This article does focus more around that subject, but I was just putting a suggestion for that part of the article. The evolution of the human foot has so many aspects to it, without them we wouldn't be able to walk the way we do today! I was just suggesting putting more content about it so the article was more informative, maybe having it as some extra/background information. Koporc.3 ( talk) 18:00, 10 October 2014 (UTC)Christine K.
References
I had a couple of suggestions for this article. First, while this is over the evolution of bipedalism in general, I think this article could talk more in depth about the specific lineages and evolutions leading up to bipedalism in humans as well as after. Also, the evolution of sexual dimorphism/lumbar spine that accompanied bipedalism could be made into its own paragraph in this article. It is only briefly mentioned. Lastly, the theories as to why amphibians and reptiles never developed bipedalism could be added to the respective sections within this page. -Sam Stephensen
Some suggestions that I have for the page include the following: The Evolution of Bipedalism tab describes how there are twelve different hypotheses but fails to discuss each one. It’s missing the knuckle walking hypothesis. I think it could also use some more information on the traveling efficiency hypothesis, such as who proposed this. The Physiology tab could use more information about how different bones of the body changed or they could connect readers with the Human Skeletal Change due to Bipedalism page ( /info/en/?search=Human_skeletal_changes_due_to_bipedalism) The Physiology tab could also discuss how the tibia is formed and that the way the bone is distributed helps to support the weight of humans walking bipedally.
Cole.622 ( talk) 01:06, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
Suggestions: 1.) In the biomechanic's section, material can be added to discuss the efficiency of bipedalism compared to quadrapedalism and the kinematics in animals such as chimps that invoke bipedalism. 2.) I agree that the different hypothesis could be discussed more or even outlined and that there is little on here for a terrestrial shift for bipedalism. The inclusion of the Knuckle walking hypothesis would definitely help balance this. 3.) The flexible branch theory could also be added to the end of the Savanna-Based Theory which suggests that bipedalism arose arboreally and was retained as primates descended from trees rather than being innovative at the time.
Ondrejech.1 22:25, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
This article could also include the evolutionary concepts that this subject relates to.
As Francois Jacob wrote, “evolution is a tinker not an engineer”. Evolution did not suddenly produce organisms, organisms emerged from the genetic variation that was present in the already existing gene pool (National Academy of Sciences).
[1] Koporc.3 ( talk) 20:37, 18 November 2014 (UTC)Christine K.
References
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Bij most bipedal animals, including humans the knee bends forward. However by birds the knee bends backward. I see no mention of this. Smiley.toerist ( talk) 11:01, 30 April 2019 (UTC)
Bipedalism 70.70.230.22 ( talk) 14:30, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
Definition incorrect: the Ostrich is not a tetrapod, though considered a biped. Gil_mo ( talk) 07:24, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
About the Limited bipedalism in mammals section. Raccoons also rarely walk on their forelimbs: https://twitter.com/CameraTrapSue/status/1772329198645809482?s=19 https://twitter.com/CameraTrapSue/status/1772278606640644351?s=19 I'm not sure how to incorporate this into the article, but I'd appreciate it if anyone that feels qualified would take a shot. Aveaoz ( talk) 22:06, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
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This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 3 January 2022 and 11 March 2022. Further details are available
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Avela057.
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RPG Hamaca — Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.243.10.202 ( talk) 11:19, 10 June 2015 (UTC) There's an unattributed line about tool use leading to bipedalism, which seems odd considering some pre-australopithecines were bipedal, and yet tool use is completely unevidenced before A. garhi. Can we just delete this?
It is absurd that the AAH gets so much attention on this page, when it's a main article for an important concept in paleoanthropology and animal evolution. In any case, I support this removal of Algis' work. He's hardly a big name in anthropology, and is a primary source discussing a single experiment. Wikipedia should be based on secondary sources - review articles and the like - making this inclusion inappropriate particularly when there are better sources from more reputable authors (who haven't tried to spam the idea across wikipedia). WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules: simple/ complex 14:11, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
I made this change because AAH is not the only hypothesis that talks about wading bipedalism. Wrangham, Cunnane and Niemitz are professionals in their own fields, their theories have good evidences and are only loosely related to AAH. Niemitz even rejects AAH, grouping him with it is unfair to him. Even if AAH is to be debunked as a whole, the plausibility of these wading models should not be affected. (BTW, wading in shallow water is a *terrestrial* locomotion, not aquatic/semi-aquatic.)
You may object my editing using UNDUE, but please look at other models. Many of them are discredited (e.g. stone tool carrying -- wrong evolutionary time) or unconvincing on key assumptions (e.g. monogamy in provisioning model). Even the thermoregulatory model (in fact one of my favorite theory) also lose ground becuase Ardi & Lucy didn't live on a hot dry grassland (so it isn't the initial stimulus = isn't the origin). These hypotheses are out-dated but still enjoy "full coverage", there's no reason why only water-related ideas have coverage reduced (I don't suggest to reduce those out-dated hypotheses, they're important historical ideas). Chakazul ( talk) 17:48, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
The entire last sentence of the first paragraph is pretty suspect - there's certainly no way to claim it's had "the most" public interest, and the length of time an idea has been around means absolutely nothing. It also notably lacks any strong note about *why* AAH and wading theories are rejected (lack of evidence, rarity of aquatic movement of any type in modern apes, etc.). I also don't like the "name dropping" - I think it's unencyclopedic, and smacks of promoting names over ideas. Mokele ( talk) 15:40, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
Can mention of Persistence hunting be made in this article? It seems like a good way to compare the advantages of bipedal motion, particularly in relation to the disadvantages of quadripedal running and it's effect on thermoregulation in animals that must pant. Roidroid ( talk) 13:08, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
The section needs a simple statement informing readers about the absence of scientific standing for this "theory". If we remove that statement, then we need to remove Morgan's "theory" altogether, as per WP:UNDUE: "Generally, the views of tiny minorities should not be included at all, except perhaps in a "see also" to an article about those specific views. For example, the article on the Earth does not directly mention modern support for the Flat Earth concept, the view of a distinct minority; to do so would give undue weight to it." Morgan's "theory" is as credible as a flat earth "theory".
The problem here is one that has arisen in other articles, that the fringe belief has become popularised despite being held by no credible scientists. As a result it really should addressed in the article since it is clearly notable. But it can’t be simply added without comment because it is a fringe theory. Mark Marathon ( talk) 02:33, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
All quoted hypotheses do not address the issue of the appropriate control of the newly emerging posture. They take for granted the ability to control upright bipedal locomotion with additional trunk rotations and head, eye and forelimb movements. To perform locomotion and assume a certain posture, the basic condition (conditio sine qua non) is to ensure the stability of the body. In a recently published article: Significance of adequate postural control in the appearance of habitual upright bipedal locomotion, Sekulic et al. Medical Hypotheses 2012; 79: 564-71 new hypothesis was published. Analysis of qualitative indicators of stability of the body during different types of locomotion in primates suggests that bipedal locomotion is not variation of some other type of locomotion. Transition from quadrupedal to bipedal locomotion is accompanied by a qualitative difference in body stability. Because of assuming an upright bipedal posture, the center of mass is lifted, the surface of the base of support is reduced, and the body structure does not provide passive stability in relation to moments of force of the body around Y-axis (quadrupedal mammals already loosed stability provided by body construction around X and Z axis) . Additional head movements, trunk rotations, forelimb manipulations with objects and surveying the surroundings are necessary for survival, but they increase the degree of freedom of movement and further complicate the task of maintaining balance in the case of a postural change from erect quadrupedal to erect bipedal. This article presents a hypothesis that the transition from quadrupedal to habitual upright bipedal locomotion was caused by qualitative changes in the nervous system that allowed controlling the more demanding type of locomotion. The ability to control a more demanding posture increases possibilities of interactions between the organism and the complex environment and consequently increases the survival rate, breeding possibilities, and chances for occupying a new environmental niche. Existing data show that ability to execute the more demanding type of locomotion was made possible because of changes in the frontal lobe and pyramidal system. Only after the more demanding posture was enabled by changes in the nervous system, could advantages of bipedal over quadrupedal locomotion be utilized, including better scanning of the environment, carrying food and infants, simultaneous upper extremity movements and observation of the environment, limitless manipulation of objects with upper extremities above the individual, and less space for rotating around the Z-axis. The aforementioned advantages of habitual bipedal over quadrupedal locomotion are present in physically complex environments, such as the forest, which is associated with the appearance of habitual bipedal locomotion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sekulic1965 ( talk • contribs) 08:07, 11 April 2014 (UTC) Sekulic1965 ( talk) 08:26, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
I think that in the Savannah Based Theory section it would be worth mentioning something about how bipedalism in the savannah would have helped regulated body temperature by reducing the surface area of the body exposed to the hot savannah sun. The section of the Savannah theory that talks about the fossils having curved fingers suggesting bipedalism adapted to arboreal life could be its own section. In that section it could be mentioned that the arboreal bipedalism could have evolved from upright running in the trees aided by using the arms to grasp braches for balance. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pallotta.8 ( talk • contribs) 23:05, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
This article is great in many ways but can be improved in some parts. For one, it could mention how one of the purposes of the human foot is for propulsion. It talks about how it was built to support weight and maintain balance, but it does not mention the importance of shock absorption. If it weren't for shock absorption our joints could be worn down and not last as long. Also, the article could mention how the human foot evolved under selection to be a flexible rather than stiff structure.
[1]
Christine K. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Koporc.3 ( talk • contribs) 06:24, 1 October 2014 (UTC)
Response: I can see your point! This article does focus more around that subject, but I was just putting a suggestion for that part of the article. The evolution of the human foot has so many aspects to it, without them we wouldn't be able to walk the way we do today! I was just suggesting putting more content about it so the article was more informative, maybe having it as some extra/background information. Koporc.3 ( talk) 18:00, 10 October 2014 (UTC)Christine K.
References
I had a couple of suggestions for this article. First, while this is over the evolution of bipedalism in general, I think this article could talk more in depth about the specific lineages and evolutions leading up to bipedalism in humans as well as after. Also, the evolution of sexual dimorphism/lumbar spine that accompanied bipedalism could be made into its own paragraph in this article. It is only briefly mentioned. Lastly, the theories as to why amphibians and reptiles never developed bipedalism could be added to the respective sections within this page. -Sam Stephensen
Some suggestions that I have for the page include the following: The Evolution of Bipedalism tab describes how there are twelve different hypotheses but fails to discuss each one. It’s missing the knuckle walking hypothesis. I think it could also use some more information on the traveling efficiency hypothesis, such as who proposed this. The Physiology tab could use more information about how different bones of the body changed or they could connect readers with the Human Skeletal Change due to Bipedalism page ( /info/en/?search=Human_skeletal_changes_due_to_bipedalism) The Physiology tab could also discuss how the tibia is formed and that the way the bone is distributed helps to support the weight of humans walking bipedally.
Cole.622 ( talk) 01:06, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
Suggestions: 1.) In the biomechanic's section, material can be added to discuss the efficiency of bipedalism compared to quadrapedalism and the kinematics in animals such as chimps that invoke bipedalism. 2.) I agree that the different hypothesis could be discussed more or even outlined and that there is little on here for a terrestrial shift for bipedalism. The inclusion of the Knuckle walking hypothesis would definitely help balance this. 3.) The flexible branch theory could also be added to the end of the Savanna-Based Theory which suggests that bipedalism arose arboreally and was retained as primates descended from trees rather than being innovative at the time.
Ondrejech.1 22:25, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
This article could also include the evolutionary concepts that this subject relates to.
As Francois Jacob wrote, “evolution is a tinker not an engineer”. Evolution did not suddenly produce organisms, organisms emerged from the genetic variation that was present in the already existing gene pool (National Academy of Sciences).
[1] Koporc.3 ( talk) 20:37, 18 November 2014 (UTC)Christine K.
References
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Bij most bipedal animals, including humans the knee bends forward. However by birds the knee bends backward. I see no mention of this. Smiley.toerist ( talk) 11:01, 30 April 2019 (UTC)
Bipedalism 70.70.230.22 ( talk) 14:30, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
Definition incorrect: the Ostrich is not a tetrapod, though considered a biped. Gil_mo ( talk) 07:24, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
About the Limited bipedalism in mammals section. Raccoons also rarely walk on their forelimbs: https://twitter.com/CameraTrapSue/status/1772329198645809482?s=19 https://twitter.com/CameraTrapSue/status/1772278606640644351?s=19 I'm not sure how to incorporate this into the article, but I'd appreciate it if anyone that feels qualified would take a shot. Aveaoz ( talk) 22:06, 18 April 2024 (UTC)