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The article is missing details of Bill Shortens work experience This should be included
I believe the rape allegations should be included in the article. The ABC, The Herald Sun and the Sydney Morning Herald all reported on it widely. Why are you opposed to it? Please put my edits back into the article or discuss why you removed very well sourced material. Birdy1234 ( talk) 01:51, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
Nick-D if we add the sentence Shorten publicly dismissed rape claims against him as "untrue and abhorrent" would that be balanced enough. I agree his claim of innocence should be included and is in the 2016 book. I'm open to discussion an d am trying to resolve your concerns. Birdy1234 ( talk) 09:36, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
So far no objective reasons based on policy or logic have been provided. Reasons that have been provided I have countered through objective means. My addition to Shorten's Personal Life section is very consistent with WP:BLP especially the section relating to notable persons. The only editors who have commented are Australian and given Shorten is the ALP leader this is too close to home. I suggest we open it up to other editors based overseas who have never heard of Shorten and can provide a truly independent and neutral opinion as to whether the rape allegations should be included similar to the AWU matter in the Julia Gillard's Personal Life section. I have now read many other bios of public figures and they too include serious criminal allegations not just charges or prosecutions that were widely covered at the time in reputable Sources. Why not in Shorten's case? As Shorten has admitted in his most recent book about his life these rape allegations deeply affected him. As they would. I have been careful to include Shorten's side and him disputing the allegations so it is not just focusing on the rape allegations from the victim. Would you be open to independent and neutral overseas editors helping to resolve this Bilby? Birdy1234 ( talk) 03:38, 6 June 2017 (UTC)
The above appears similar to the disruptive POV-pushing conduct by Birdy1234 in the Virginia Trioli article. Birdy1234, you really need to read WP:BLP and understand that it is taken very seriously. Nick-D ( talk) 08:51, 6 June 2017 (UTC)
As far as I can tell "no reasonable prospect of conviction" is the same as saying that no substantial evidence of the alleged crime was found by police. As a result, the matter falls under Wikipedia policy regarding "allegations" in general. If no charges are brought, and there is appreciable doubt as to the crime, it does not belong in any BLP. I note further that such material must be left out of the BLP sans a strong consensus for inclusion, which appears not to be a remote possibility from the discussion above. And this would be true of any person from any nation one could conceivable posit. Collect ( talk) 14:31, 6 June 2017 (UTC)
Comment (in response to request at BLP noticeboard) - contrary to Collect's comments above, BLP not only does not proscribe the inclusion of allegations tout court, but, under certain circumstances, almost mandates them. More precisely, if the BLP subject is a public figure, and the allegations are "noteworthy, relevant, and well-documented" in a "multitude of reliable published sources", then BLP explicitly underscores that they "belong in the article, even if (...) negative and the subject dislikes all mention of it", per WP:WELLKNOWN. Y'all'll need to assess whether or not the coverage of the allegations about Shorten meets the tests above, but there's no BLP escape hatch if they do, since the ( WP:NPF) policy track, which contains WP:BLPCRIME, which encourages editors to strongly consider not including information anywhere that someone has committed a crime (or is even so accused) absent a conviction in a court of law, only governs relatively unknown people. Advocata ( talk) 00:42, 7 June 2017 (UTC)
The Australian, The Age, News.com.au, Dailymail.co.uk, The ABC, Channel 9 News, The Herald Sun, The Guardian, Fox News, and the Sydney Morning Herald to name but a few of the sources all ran major articles on the Shorten rape allegations and police investigations which followed. We can use all of them in the article and these articles more than satisfy WP:BLP policies. Are any of those sources not reliable or reputable Bilby and do you agree with what Advocata said? I believe that the rape allegations should be in the article and as Advocata said we are almost mandated to do that. Birdy1234 ( talk) 08:09, 7 June 2017 (UTC)
so when will the right thing be done? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.91.232.210 ( talk) 05:22, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
Given that the overwhelming majority of respondents have agreed that the Bill Shorten rape allegations should be included (similar to the Barnaby Joyce allegations from WA (see his page) - let's work towards how we will include them 2001:8003:6A23:2C00:4417:FE9B:8238:3C1D ( talk) 13:18, 30 March 2018 (UTC)
To this end I propose we put a new subtitle under Personal life that addresses the allegation objectively. This story has been discussed by many reputable news organisations, the police, the alleged victim, a biographer, Shorten and Turnbull. Add to it extensive coverage of less serious (non-rape) allegations on Wikipedia: Joyce MP, Kevin Spacey, Harvey Weinstein, Don Burke, Dustin Hoffman, etc. User:Bilby is wrong to say there is consensus and to delete my contribution. Who made Bilby the arbiter of the truth? Deleted section:
Rape allegation In 2013 a woman, known as Kathy, accused Shorten of having raped her during a 1986 Young Labor camp in Portarlington when she was 16 and he was 19.( http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/woman-who-accuses-opposition-leader-bill-shorten-of-rape-says-police-failed-her/news-story/a92bad447392ff36830daa5ef2f8971e; https://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/the-man-in-the-machine-20160512-gotfb2.html) Rumours of the allegation proliferated "for some time" in Canberra and online before it became public. ( https://thenewdaily.com.au/news/national/2014/08/21/bill-shorten-rape-allegations/; https://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/the-man-in-the-machine-20160512-gotfb2.html) Victoria Police interviewed Shorten and various witnesses over a ten month period and decided not to lodge charges when the DPP advised "there was no reasonable prospect of conviction" based on the evidence collected.( http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-08-21/no-charges-for-labor-figure-over-alleged-rape-in-1980s/5685846) Afterward, Shorten said the allegation was "untrue and abhorrent".( http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-08-21/bill-shorten-says-name-cleared-over-rape-allegation/5687172) According to journalist and Shorten biographer, David Marr, Kathy's "allegation [was] detailed" but he also noted her "confusion and distress". ( https://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/the-man-in-the-machine-20160512-gotfb2.html) In November 2014, Kathy's lawyer revealed that she had not consulted a lawyer about the rape allegation until after the police closed their investigation.( https://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/bill-shorten-faces-bid-to-revisit-sex-claim/news-story/6621d8e7906a412d012ca81d4eb21f86) jackbulldog2012 06:32, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
BLP rules allow for the publication of an alleged event that is based on uncontentious and well sourced material that is cited and easily verified and where no undue weight is placed on it. It was positioned at the bottom of the wiki, it was made clear that it was an allegation, the sources were cited with links, the sources were reputable, the story lasted longer than a week (much longer - check the dates) and the subject (Shorten) himself addressed the allegations, as well as the police, the Prime Minister, and the subject's biographer (read the book). Further,l Geoffrey Rush's allegation is on his wiki, it is more prominently placed (higher up the article), it received less attention, hasn't lasted as long and is not nearly as serious as a an alleged rape. jackbulldog2012 09:10, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
Bilby continues to sweep this issue under the rug, I'd encourage the vast majority of people who want to see an objective & balanced statement on this very significant and serious issue, to reverse his contributions to bury the already well-known, public, and published accusations. It is well within Wikipedia's guidelines, despite people's objections, as they are published stories from reputable news sources - and the best middle-ground for achieving consensus would be to strive for objectivity by replicating how similar allegations are displayed on other prominent person's pages. Any edits counter to this should be reversed.
The ABC (neutral and even left leaning media), reports that Bill Shorten “misheard” questions about his taxes to superannuation, which resulted in ScoMo calling him a “liar”. This is the citation ( https://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2019-04-17/federal-election-shorten-clarifies-labor-superannuation-policy/11024002). Can we include this 120.29.51.76 ( talk) 17:43, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
We seem to get this every time a leader announces their departure in their concession speech. Announcing you're stepping down is not the same thing as immediately vacating the post. Normally a resignation needs to be formally accepted by a relevant official and arrangements determined for how the post is held in the immediate future (the incumbent might stay in post until the successor is elected, the deputy may step up, an executive may appoint a senior figure who isn't standing for the long term). Until we have definitive sources from those who know what they're talking about, not fast commentary on the night, Shorten should still be listed as leader. Timrollpickering ( Talk) 14:05, 18 May 2019 (UTC)
Why was my edit just reverted by you Bilby? I looked at similar articles like the John Hewson article and they include a sentence which is definitely notable so why not for Bill Shorten. John Robert Hewson AM (born 28 October 1946) is a former Australian politician who served as leader of the Liberal Party from 1990 to 1994. He led the Coalition to defeat at the 1993 federal election. Sportstir ( talk) 07:05, 31 May 2019 (UTC)
There have been multiple sources which tell us that Bill Shorten's alleged rape case of Kathy in the mid 90's is going to be re-opened. Perhaps we should have a separate section in the article about Bill's alleged rape of this woman as it seems not to be going away and is being reported on again in 2019. https://www.xyz.net.au/rape-case-may-reopen-could-metoo-hurt-bill-shorten/ This seems as notable as Julian Assange's alleged rape case being re-opened does it not? Now he is no longer ever going to be PM of Australian can we now actually report this alleged rape case. There seems to be a hell of a lot of reliable sources reporting on it. Sportstir ( talk) 04:57, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
I don't mind a few sentences describing what the reliable sources reported about this in 2013/14. For future reference however, Peter Faris is not a prestigious lawyer. Onetwothreeip ( talk) 09:17, 20 June 2019 (UTC)
Should this section on a rape allegation be included in the article? – Tera tix ₵ 02:20, 21 June 2019 (UTC)
In 2013, after being elected as leader of the Australian Labor Party, Shorten publicly identified himself as the senior ALP figure at the centre of an allegation of rape said to have occurred in 1986. Shorten strongly denied the allegations. The Victoria Police investigated, the Office of Public Prosecutions advised there was no reasonable prospect of a conviction and no charges were laid. [1] [2]
Bill Shorten is a prominent Australian politician who led the Labor opposition from 2013 until recently. Whether to include this allegation has been the subject of perennial discussion
stretching back to 2014, when it first surfaced in the media, culminating in
a 2018 RfC which resulted in no consensus. Both sides agree the allegation has received coverage from reliable sources – the dispute is whether this coverage is enough to show the allegation is noteworthy, relevant, and well documented
, per
WP:PUBLICFIGURE. I have opened this RfC in an effort to achieve a definitive consensus. Note the proposed text has changed significantly since the previous RfC. –
Tera
tix
₵
02:20, 21 June 2019 (UTC)
From previous RfC, references that may be useful as citations: [3] [4] [5] [6] [7]
References
{{
cite news}}
: Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |work=
(
help)
applies to individuals who are not public figures, but Bill Shorten is a public figure, so WP:BLPCRIME does not apply. WP:BLPCRIME does not say that the person has to be a public figure at the time of the alleged offense. Thus, per WP:PUBLICFIGURE, we can document what reliable sources say. Here's an example: Michael Gove was accused of taking cocaine when he was a journalist and not yet a politician. Those sources provided above are adequate for the short paragraph proposed. starship .paint ( talk) 03:38, 21 June 2019 (UTC)
Notified BLP/N, WP Bio's Politics workgroup, WP Politics, WP Aus Politics and the Australian Wikipedians' noticeboard. – Tera tix ₵ 02:43, 21 June 2019 (UTC)
Although I support the proposal, I believe the following to be more appropriate, as it doesn't suggest there was some particular event at some particular time, and some minor editing.
Onetwothreeip ( talk) 04:59, 21 June 2019 (UTC)In 2013, after being elected as leader of the Labor Party, Shorten publicly identified himself as the senior ALP figure being investigated regarding an alleged historic rape offence. Shorten strongly denied the allegations. After Victoria Police conducted a ten month investigation, the Office of Public Prosecutions advised there was "no reasonable prospect of
aconviction" and no charges were laid. [1]
no reasonable prospect of conviction" (not "
... a conviction"), to accurately reflect the source. Mitch Ames ( talk) 05:34, 21 June 2019 (UTC)
References
{{
cite news}}
: Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |work=
(
help)
I'm struck by how many of the "Supports" above have said some variation of "It's been reported in reliable sources (ie, various newspapers), therefore its inclusion is unassailable". That might be true for Wikinews, but Wikipedia has a higher bar. This article should be an encyclopaedic biography including all notable aspects of that person's life. As many others have said, refuted allegations which did not even result in any public scandal, far less actual charges or a conviction, do not meet this description. Comparisons with Donald Trump or Luke Foley (aside from being an appeal to OTHERSTUFFEXISTS) are inapt - those allegations had immediate and ongoing political ramifications, in Clinton's case for well over 20 years. Each case has to be weighed on its own merits; Wikipedia should be more than an unthinking parrot for anything written in the papers - we are NOTNEWS. - Yeti Hunter ( talk) 00:22, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Obviously with the case back in the news in 2021, being mentioned in comparison to the Christian Porter allegations, this needs to be in. But even back in 2019 I would have given support. I almost always believe in including these sort of things (true "scandalous" stories about politicians' personal lives), because many people are interested to know about them, and go to Wikipedia for this sort of information. And it is far better for readers to get a neutral and factual mention on Wikipedia, not only because the alternative is to get a biased description of it elsewhere, but also because omitting it leaves WP open to accusations of hiding the truth. And there is very little downside to including it: just one short paragraph in a long article. Adpete ( talk) 22:51, 10 March 2021 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Bill Shorten article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1 |
![]() | This article is written in Australian English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, realise, program, labour (but Labor Party)) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
![]() | This page is about an active politician who is running for office or has recently run for office, is in office and campaigning for re-election, or is involved in some current political conflict or controversy. Because of this, this article is at increased risk of biased editing, talk-page trolling, and simple vandalism. |
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | The following Wikipedia contributor may be personally or professionally connected to the subject of this article. Relevant policies and guidelines may include
conflict of interest,
autobiography, and
neutral point of view.
|
![]() |
Daily pageviews of this article
A graph should have been displayed here but
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The article is missing details of Bill Shortens work experience This should be included
I believe the rape allegations should be included in the article. The ABC, The Herald Sun and the Sydney Morning Herald all reported on it widely. Why are you opposed to it? Please put my edits back into the article or discuss why you removed very well sourced material. Birdy1234 ( talk) 01:51, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
Nick-D if we add the sentence Shorten publicly dismissed rape claims against him as "untrue and abhorrent" would that be balanced enough. I agree his claim of innocence should be included and is in the 2016 book. I'm open to discussion an d am trying to resolve your concerns. Birdy1234 ( talk) 09:36, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
So far no objective reasons based on policy or logic have been provided. Reasons that have been provided I have countered through objective means. My addition to Shorten's Personal Life section is very consistent with WP:BLP especially the section relating to notable persons. The only editors who have commented are Australian and given Shorten is the ALP leader this is too close to home. I suggest we open it up to other editors based overseas who have never heard of Shorten and can provide a truly independent and neutral opinion as to whether the rape allegations should be included similar to the AWU matter in the Julia Gillard's Personal Life section. I have now read many other bios of public figures and they too include serious criminal allegations not just charges or prosecutions that were widely covered at the time in reputable Sources. Why not in Shorten's case? As Shorten has admitted in his most recent book about his life these rape allegations deeply affected him. As they would. I have been careful to include Shorten's side and him disputing the allegations so it is not just focusing on the rape allegations from the victim. Would you be open to independent and neutral overseas editors helping to resolve this Bilby? Birdy1234 ( talk) 03:38, 6 June 2017 (UTC)
The above appears similar to the disruptive POV-pushing conduct by Birdy1234 in the Virginia Trioli article. Birdy1234, you really need to read WP:BLP and understand that it is taken very seriously. Nick-D ( talk) 08:51, 6 June 2017 (UTC)
As far as I can tell "no reasonable prospect of conviction" is the same as saying that no substantial evidence of the alleged crime was found by police. As a result, the matter falls under Wikipedia policy regarding "allegations" in general. If no charges are brought, and there is appreciable doubt as to the crime, it does not belong in any BLP. I note further that such material must be left out of the BLP sans a strong consensus for inclusion, which appears not to be a remote possibility from the discussion above. And this would be true of any person from any nation one could conceivable posit. Collect ( talk) 14:31, 6 June 2017 (UTC)
Comment (in response to request at BLP noticeboard) - contrary to Collect's comments above, BLP not only does not proscribe the inclusion of allegations tout court, but, under certain circumstances, almost mandates them. More precisely, if the BLP subject is a public figure, and the allegations are "noteworthy, relevant, and well-documented" in a "multitude of reliable published sources", then BLP explicitly underscores that they "belong in the article, even if (...) negative and the subject dislikes all mention of it", per WP:WELLKNOWN. Y'all'll need to assess whether or not the coverage of the allegations about Shorten meets the tests above, but there's no BLP escape hatch if they do, since the ( WP:NPF) policy track, which contains WP:BLPCRIME, which encourages editors to strongly consider not including information anywhere that someone has committed a crime (or is even so accused) absent a conviction in a court of law, only governs relatively unknown people. Advocata ( talk) 00:42, 7 June 2017 (UTC)
The Australian, The Age, News.com.au, Dailymail.co.uk, The ABC, Channel 9 News, The Herald Sun, The Guardian, Fox News, and the Sydney Morning Herald to name but a few of the sources all ran major articles on the Shorten rape allegations and police investigations which followed. We can use all of them in the article and these articles more than satisfy WP:BLP policies. Are any of those sources not reliable or reputable Bilby and do you agree with what Advocata said? I believe that the rape allegations should be in the article and as Advocata said we are almost mandated to do that. Birdy1234 ( talk) 08:09, 7 June 2017 (UTC)
so when will the right thing be done? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.91.232.210 ( talk) 05:22, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
Given that the overwhelming majority of respondents have agreed that the Bill Shorten rape allegations should be included (similar to the Barnaby Joyce allegations from WA (see his page) - let's work towards how we will include them 2001:8003:6A23:2C00:4417:FE9B:8238:3C1D ( talk) 13:18, 30 March 2018 (UTC)
To this end I propose we put a new subtitle under Personal life that addresses the allegation objectively. This story has been discussed by many reputable news organisations, the police, the alleged victim, a biographer, Shorten and Turnbull. Add to it extensive coverage of less serious (non-rape) allegations on Wikipedia: Joyce MP, Kevin Spacey, Harvey Weinstein, Don Burke, Dustin Hoffman, etc. User:Bilby is wrong to say there is consensus and to delete my contribution. Who made Bilby the arbiter of the truth? Deleted section:
Rape allegation In 2013 a woman, known as Kathy, accused Shorten of having raped her during a 1986 Young Labor camp in Portarlington when she was 16 and he was 19.( http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/woman-who-accuses-opposition-leader-bill-shorten-of-rape-says-police-failed-her/news-story/a92bad447392ff36830daa5ef2f8971e; https://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/the-man-in-the-machine-20160512-gotfb2.html) Rumours of the allegation proliferated "for some time" in Canberra and online before it became public. ( https://thenewdaily.com.au/news/national/2014/08/21/bill-shorten-rape-allegations/; https://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/the-man-in-the-machine-20160512-gotfb2.html) Victoria Police interviewed Shorten and various witnesses over a ten month period and decided not to lodge charges when the DPP advised "there was no reasonable prospect of conviction" based on the evidence collected.( http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-08-21/no-charges-for-labor-figure-over-alleged-rape-in-1980s/5685846) Afterward, Shorten said the allegation was "untrue and abhorrent".( http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-08-21/bill-shorten-says-name-cleared-over-rape-allegation/5687172) According to journalist and Shorten biographer, David Marr, Kathy's "allegation [was] detailed" but he also noted her "confusion and distress". ( https://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/the-man-in-the-machine-20160512-gotfb2.html) In November 2014, Kathy's lawyer revealed that she had not consulted a lawyer about the rape allegation until after the police closed their investigation.( https://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/bill-shorten-faces-bid-to-revisit-sex-claim/news-story/6621d8e7906a412d012ca81d4eb21f86) jackbulldog2012 06:32, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
BLP rules allow for the publication of an alleged event that is based on uncontentious and well sourced material that is cited and easily verified and where no undue weight is placed on it. It was positioned at the bottom of the wiki, it was made clear that it was an allegation, the sources were cited with links, the sources were reputable, the story lasted longer than a week (much longer - check the dates) and the subject (Shorten) himself addressed the allegations, as well as the police, the Prime Minister, and the subject's biographer (read the book). Further,l Geoffrey Rush's allegation is on his wiki, it is more prominently placed (higher up the article), it received less attention, hasn't lasted as long and is not nearly as serious as a an alleged rape. jackbulldog2012 09:10, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
Bilby continues to sweep this issue under the rug, I'd encourage the vast majority of people who want to see an objective & balanced statement on this very significant and serious issue, to reverse his contributions to bury the already well-known, public, and published accusations. It is well within Wikipedia's guidelines, despite people's objections, as they are published stories from reputable news sources - and the best middle-ground for achieving consensus would be to strive for objectivity by replicating how similar allegations are displayed on other prominent person's pages. Any edits counter to this should be reversed.
The ABC (neutral and even left leaning media), reports that Bill Shorten “misheard” questions about his taxes to superannuation, which resulted in ScoMo calling him a “liar”. This is the citation ( https://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2019-04-17/federal-election-shorten-clarifies-labor-superannuation-policy/11024002). Can we include this 120.29.51.76 ( talk) 17:43, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
We seem to get this every time a leader announces their departure in their concession speech. Announcing you're stepping down is not the same thing as immediately vacating the post. Normally a resignation needs to be formally accepted by a relevant official and arrangements determined for how the post is held in the immediate future (the incumbent might stay in post until the successor is elected, the deputy may step up, an executive may appoint a senior figure who isn't standing for the long term). Until we have definitive sources from those who know what they're talking about, not fast commentary on the night, Shorten should still be listed as leader. Timrollpickering ( Talk) 14:05, 18 May 2019 (UTC)
Why was my edit just reverted by you Bilby? I looked at similar articles like the John Hewson article and they include a sentence which is definitely notable so why not for Bill Shorten. John Robert Hewson AM (born 28 October 1946) is a former Australian politician who served as leader of the Liberal Party from 1990 to 1994. He led the Coalition to defeat at the 1993 federal election. Sportstir ( talk) 07:05, 31 May 2019 (UTC)
There have been multiple sources which tell us that Bill Shorten's alleged rape case of Kathy in the mid 90's is going to be re-opened. Perhaps we should have a separate section in the article about Bill's alleged rape of this woman as it seems not to be going away and is being reported on again in 2019. https://www.xyz.net.au/rape-case-may-reopen-could-metoo-hurt-bill-shorten/ This seems as notable as Julian Assange's alleged rape case being re-opened does it not? Now he is no longer ever going to be PM of Australian can we now actually report this alleged rape case. There seems to be a hell of a lot of reliable sources reporting on it. Sportstir ( talk) 04:57, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
I don't mind a few sentences describing what the reliable sources reported about this in 2013/14. For future reference however, Peter Faris is not a prestigious lawyer. Onetwothreeip ( talk) 09:17, 20 June 2019 (UTC)
Should this section on a rape allegation be included in the article? – Tera tix ₵ 02:20, 21 June 2019 (UTC)
In 2013, after being elected as leader of the Australian Labor Party, Shorten publicly identified himself as the senior ALP figure at the centre of an allegation of rape said to have occurred in 1986. Shorten strongly denied the allegations. The Victoria Police investigated, the Office of Public Prosecutions advised there was no reasonable prospect of a conviction and no charges were laid. [1] [2]
Bill Shorten is a prominent Australian politician who led the Labor opposition from 2013 until recently. Whether to include this allegation has been the subject of perennial discussion
stretching back to 2014, when it first surfaced in the media, culminating in
a 2018 RfC which resulted in no consensus. Both sides agree the allegation has received coverage from reliable sources – the dispute is whether this coverage is enough to show the allegation is noteworthy, relevant, and well documented
, per
WP:PUBLICFIGURE. I have opened this RfC in an effort to achieve a definitive consensus. Note the proposed text has changed significantly since the previous RfC. –
Tera
tix
₵
02:20, 21 June 2019 (UTC)
From previous RfC, references that may be useful as citations: [3] [4] [5] [6] [7]
References
{{
cite news}}
: Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |work=
(
help)
applies to individuals who are not public figures, but Bill Shorten is a public figure, so WP:BLPCRIME does not apply. WP:BLPCRIME does not say that the person has to be a public figure at the time of the alleged offense. Thus, per WP:PUBLICFIGURE, we can document what reliable sources say. Here's an example: Michael Gove was accused of taking cocaine when he was a journalist and not yet a politician. Those sources provided above are adequate for the short paragraph proposed. starship .paint ( talk) 03:38, 21 June 2019 (UTC)
Notified BLP/N, WP Bio's Politics workgroup, WP Politics, WP Aus Politics and the Australian Wikipedians' noticeboard. – Tera tix ₵ 02:43, 21 June 2019 (UTC)
Although I support the proposal, I believe the following to be more appropriate, as it doesn't suggest there was some particular event at some particular time, and some minor editing.
Onetwothreeip ( talk) 04:59, 21 June 2019 (UTC)In 2013, after being elected as leader of the Labor Party, Shorten publicly identified himself as the senior ALP figure being investigated regarding an alleged historic rape offence. Shorten strongly denied the allegations. After Victoria Police conducted a ten month investigation, the Office of Public Prosecutions advised there was "no reasonable prospect of
aconviction" and no charges were laid. [1]
no reasonable prospect of conviction" (not "
... a conviction"), to accurately reflect the source. Mitch Ames ( talk) 05:34, 21 June 2019 (UTC)
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I'm struck by how many of the "Supports" above have said some variation of "It's been reported in reliable sources (ie, various newspapers), therefore its inclusion is unassailable". That might be true for Wikinews, but Wikipedia has a higher bar. This article should be an encyclopaedic biography including all notable aspects of that person's life. As many others have said, refuted allegations which did not even result in any public scandal, far less actual charges or a conviction, do not meet this description. Comparisons with Donald Trump or Luke Foley (aside from being an appeal to OTHERSTUFFEXISTS) are inapt - those allegations had immediate and ongoing political ramifications, in Clinton's case for well over 20 years. Each case has to be weighed on its own merits; Wikipedia should be more than an unthinking parrot for anything written in the papers - we are NOTNEWS. - Yeti Hunter ( talk) 00:22, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Obviously with the case back in the news in 2021, being mentioned in comparison to the Christian Porter allegations, this needs to be in. But even back in 2019 I would have given support. I almost always believe in including these sort of things (true "scandalous" stories about politicians' personal lives), because many people are interested to know about them, and go to Wikipedia for this sort of information. And it is far better for readers to get a neutral and factual mention on Wikipedia, not only because the alternative is to get a biased description of it elsewhere, but also because omitting it leaves WP open to accusations of hiding the truth. And there is very little downside to including it: just one short paragraph in a long article. Adpete ( talk) 22:51, 10 March 2021 (UTC)