![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
I was looking for a place to put this orphaned image before it was deleted when I found this article referring to it. Is everyone OK with it?-- ChubsterII ( talk) 12:10, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
The administrations result was to keep it here if not then take it back to FFD. Deletion was already stopped twice there by the administration.-- ChubsterII ( talk) 23:33, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
--Windowasher 22:57, 1 November 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Windowasher ( talk • contribs)
The photo was a copyright violation with no valid reasons for using it, so it has been removed again. DreamGuy ( talk) 17:41, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
In the section "View Among the Scientific Community," the article rightly states that Jane Goodall "hopes" that there is such a creature, but admits that there is no scientific evidence for its existence. The very next sentence states that "Anthropologist Carlton S. Coon...also expressed support for Bigfoot's existence." This is disingenuous in that Goodall did NOT "express support" for its existence, so it should not say ALSO. Goodall only stated that it would be great if the creature DID exist. Since the article is locked, I guess this (possibly purposeful) error will remain to lie to people for years to come. The truth is, the scientific community is pretty much unanimous in their NON-acceptance of such a creature as Bigfoot, and for many reasons (no physical evidence, no credible eyewitness reports, varied descriptions, the inability of such a large creature to sustain itself on available food sources, etc., etc.). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.126.229.138 ( talk) 23:40, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
She does say on video tape that she does believe that it exists.
See tape on BFRO website.
75.166.179.110 ( talk) 19:08, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
I've listened to the audio recording of the Goodall interview several times and Goodall says (and I quote her exactly) that she "IS SURE THAT THEY EXIST". Instead the editors of this article are quoting her completely out of context.
This article is being 'camped out on'. There is no fair debate here. Just aggressive reverts and domination by aggressive control tactics.
The article is not even written to Wikipedia standards.
The word "supposedly" is not considered acceptable in the opening paragraph in ANY Wikipedia article for any reason. It's an extremely biased word.
The word "allegedly" is far better, and shows neutrality. The fact that aggressive reverts have stopped the deletion of the word "supposedly" from this article for over a year now shows that this article is grossly biased and is besieged (stalked and camped out on) by those who don't understand the difference between fair and balanced debate and aggressive social manipulation.
Aggressively reverting edits to "win" a power struggle has NOTHING to do with fair debate, balanced discussion, or the truth. And it reflects very poorly on the article, which as written, is no more than a poorly articulated opinion piece.
69.171.160.147 ( talk) 15:34, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
Michael Rugg has presented a theory and video suggesting that bigfoots might be related to the animals that produced the Meganthropus fossils. In the same videos, he discusses why Gigantopithecus is not likely related. The videos are interesting in that Rugg presents a molar that was found in 2004, which compares very favorably to the Meganthropus fossils. Rugg notes the worn occlusal enamel, but fails to identify the significance; this is a trait only found in humans and their very close relatives (i.e. neanderthals and homo erectus), and is indicative of a substantial amount of ingested grit.
The presentation is rather recent, and there has not been any substantive review of the theory or the tooth. The Meganthropus fossils are not widely recognized as belonging to a unique species, but rather are believed to be from abnormal individuals of otherwise known extinct species (i.e. pananthropus and homo erectus). Owing to these two facts, I have inserted content about Rugg's comparison and theory under the general "Extinct Hominidae" heading. Magic pumpkin ( talk) 20:30, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
I remember reading on Yahoo! News a new sighting of 'Bigfoot' in Minnesota (I'm pretty sure). It was a hunter, like the mange-bear one, with motion-detector hunting cameras, only the pic he caught showed something that looked like it was actually walking. Does anyone have any idea what I'm talking about? If so, if it hasn't already been thoroughly disproven, I'd like to see a mention of it. Masternachos ( talk) 07:27, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
MonsterQuest On the show monsterquest the found a hair. After removing the traces of galvinized iron from the hair, the scientists found it to be primate, but no know primate. Clearly this is evidence in bigfoot or either a bigfoot like creature.
This section presently has major POV issues, and I have tagged it as such. Despite the fact that that mainstream scientific view is that megafauna cryptids such as bigfoot probably do not exist, the majority of this section covers a small fraction of sympathetic fringe perspectives that are sympathetic to the possibility of its existence. The section gives entirely undue weight to these fringe perspectives. Whats worse, some of these perspectives are referenced from cryptozoological and fringe sources! There is no way that fringe sources are reliable sources for documenting the view of the mainstream scientific community. Finally, the fact that the mainstream scientific view is presently relegated to a separate section at the bottom of the page is not idea. The mainstream view should be clear from the beginning and should be incorporated wherever possible throughout the article to lend balance and perspective to fringe claims. I will try to work on this over time, but it may be a big project, so help would be appreciated. Locke9k ( talk) 17:04, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
Ok, I have done some major cleanup on this section. I haven't removed any references or general facts, but I have cut out a lot of the excessive detail in order to keep the same information while reducing the undue weight issue of giving too much space to a fringe view. I'll probably work on it some more later, but hopefully this is a start. Locke9k ( talk) 21:55, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
Locke9k has done some major cleanup on this section cutting a lot of excessive detail reducing the undue weight issue. What other suggestions are there for future editing in this section?--
Timpicerilo (
talk)
13:43, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
Since this material is covered in short in the introduction and since the later section went into excessive detail (and rather poor writing) I removed it. It did not ad anything to the article but promote a certain agenda that took all neutrality out of the issue. This isn't the Skeptical Inquirer article on Bigfoot, it is the Wikipedia article. Gingermint ( talk) 21:43, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
This is just in plain words: a crappy, one-sided definition. Daegling holds no position to be labeled as the "Scientific community". All of you are taking your personal stance on this issue and dumping into this wiki page. Shame on you hypocrites. The first paragraph.. neigh the FIRST SENTENCE needs a re-do and contain neutrality as it DOES NOT contain such. Rokclimber17 ( talk • contribs) 18:17, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
Jane Goodall is not a 'fringe scientist', but is rather an internationally recognized primatologist who has been recognized for major contributions to the field. Goodall has publicly stated that she believes that Bigfoot does exist. Sean7phil ( talk) 13:16, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
I am with you that picture of big foot looks like a gorila walking on two legs. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.160.42.76 ( talk) 01:34, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
The wording of the opening statement is still sub-optimal. It is somewhat misleading, using fallacious terms such as "scientific community" (a fictitious entity) and "scientific consensus" (an oxymoron often employed as a formal fallacy), and is even contradicted by properly supported statements made later in the article. Several of the sources cited (including Daegling's book) do not actually support the preceding statements, or are themselves of questionable validity. For example, one source, used to support the postulate that there would be an insufficient breeding population, appears to be a blog. In an objective article, logical fallacies should be avoided, as well as our own postulates and conclusions ( WP:OR). To this end, I have removed the fallacious terms, the blog as a source, and tried to sum Bigfoot as factually, and concisely as possible. Magic pumpkin ( talk) 20:47, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
I do realize that there are some editors who are very passionate about portraying bigfoot as nothing more than a myth, and are willing to resort to fallacies in order to do it, but please consider this. The Scientific Bigfoot Research Community would obviously be at odds with having an editor claim that they claim that their research topic doesn't exist, while the Scientific Native American Mythology Research Community may be perfectly fine with calling bigfoot a myth. The Scientific Zoology Community would probably prefer we don't put words into their mouths, as they have never actually had an opportunity to study a bigfoot, so as to make conclusions pertaining to its diet, habitat, social structure, and reproduction. Then again, maybe some zoologist has, but has not yet put the evidence up for a community vote, not that there is a vote. Magic pumpkin ( talk) 20:47, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
Good tweaks, the revised lead works much better. - LuckyLouie ( talk) 19:51, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
The blog post cited in this edit isn't a reliable source for criticism of mainstream scientific opinions about Bigfoot. - LuckyLouie ( talk) 20:51, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
"Canadian Sasquatch authority, John Green, wasn’t positive about the book and stated, “there are enough factual errors and ill founded assumptions to thoroughly mislead anyone who has no other source of information on the subject." Minnesota filmmaker Doug Hajicek, responsible for the production of Sasquatch: Legend Meets Science weighed in as well, “this author should be ashamed of using his credentials to skate by with laziness of both action and thinking.” "I’m not sure if Dr. Daegling proofread his manuscript. Says the Florida anthropologist, “individual mammals do not extend their home ranges across entire continents.” Whether you are in Alaska or Florida, all you have to do is roll down your window and you’ll see plenty of mammals: people." "Daegling might be his own worst enemy in reference to the “r” word: replication. It is seen on pages 62, 63, 132, 214 and probably elsewhere. In reference to an old story about scientists Fleischman and Pons and their ‘cold fusion’ Daegling would write, “...when researchers at other institutions tried to replicate the results, they came up empty more often than not.” Later he writes, “replication of results is absolutely critical for a claim to be scientifically valid.”-- Timpicerilo ( talk) 23:49, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
I was looking for a place to put this orphaned image before it was deleted when I found this article referring to it. Is everyone OK with it?-- ChubsterII ( talk) 12:10, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
The administrations result was to keep it here if not then take it back to FFD. Deletion was already stopped twice there by the administration.-- ChubsterII ( talk) 23:33, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
--Windowasher 22:57, 1 November 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Windowasher ( talk • contribs)
The photo was a copyright violation with no valid reasons for using it, so it has been removed again. DreamGuy ( talk) 17:41, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
In the section "View Among the Scientific Community," the article rightly states that Jane Goodall "hopes" that there is such a creature, but admits that there is no scientific evidence for its existence. The very next sentence states that "Anthropologist Carlton S. Coon...also expressed support for Bigfoot's existence." This is disingenuous in that Goodall did NOT "express support" for its existence, so it should not say ALSO. Goodall only stated that it would be great if the creature DID exist. Since the article is locked, I guess this (possibly purposeful) error will remain to lie to people for years to come. The truth is, the scientific community is pretty much unanimous in their NON-acceptance of such a creature as Bigfoot, and for many reasons (no physical evidence, no credible eyewitness reports, varied descriptions, the inability of such a large creature to sustain itself on available food sources, etc., etc.). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.126.229.138 ( talk) 23:40, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
She does say on video tape that she does believe that it exists.
See tape on BFRO website.
75.166.179.110 ( talk) 19:08, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
I've listened to the audio recording of the Goodall interview several times and Goodall says (and I quote her exactly) that she "IS SURE THAT THEY EXIST". Instead the editors of this article are quoting her completely out of context.
This article is being 'camped out on'. There is no fair debate here. Just aggressive reverts and domination by aggressive control tactics.
The article is not even written to Wikipedia standards.
The word "supposedly" is not considered acceptable in the opening paragraph in ANY Wikipedia article for any reason. It's an extremely biased word.
The word "allegedly" is far better, and shows neutrality. The fact that aggressive reverts have stopped the deletion of the word "supposedly" from this article for over a year now shows that this article is grossly biased and is besieged (stalked and camped out on) by those who don't understand the difference between fair and balanced debate and aggressive social manipulation.
Aggressively reverting edits to "win" a power struggle has NOTHING to do with fair debate, balanced discussion, or the truth. And it reflects very poorly on the article, which as written, is no more than a poorly articulated opinion piece.
69.171.160.147 ( talk) 15:34, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
Michael Rugg has presented a theory and video suggesting that bigfoots might be related to the animals that produced the Meganthropus fossils. In the same videos, he discusses why Gigantopithecus is not likely related. The videos are interesting in that Rugg presents a molar that was found in 2004, which compares very favorably to the Meganthropus fossils. Rugg notes the worn occlusal enamel, but fails to identify the significance; this is a trait only found in humans and their very close relatives (i.e. neanderthals and homo erectus), and is indicative of a substantial amount of ingested grit.
The presentation is rather recent, and there has not been any substantive review of the theory or the tooth. The Meganthropus fossils are not widely recognized as belonging to a unique species, but rather are believed to be from abnormal individuals of otherwise known extinct species (i.e. pananthropus and homo erectus). Owing to these two facts, I have inserted content about Rugg's comparison and theory under the general "Extinct Hominidae" heading. Magic pumpkin ( talk) 20:30, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
I remember reading on Yahoo! News a new sighting of 'Bigfoot' in Minnesota (I'm pretty sure). It was a hunter, like the mange-bear one, with motion-detector hunting cameras, only the pic he caught showed something that looked like it was actually walking. Does anyone have any idea what I'm talking about? If so, if it hasn't already been thoroughly disproven, I'd like to see a mention of it. Masternachos ( talk) 07:27, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
MonsterQuest On the show monsterquest the found a hair. After removing the traces of galvinized iron from the hair, the scientists found it to be primate, but no know primate. Clearly this is evidence in bigfoot or either a bigfoot like creature.
This section presently has major POV issues, and I have tagged it as such. Despite the fact that that mainstream scientific view is that megafauna cryptids such as bigfoot probably do not exist, the majority of this section covers a small fraction of sympathetic fringe perspectives that are sympathetic to the possibility of its existence. The section gives entirely undue weight to these fringe perspectives. Whats worse, some of these perspectives are referenced from cryptozoological and fringe sources! There is no way that fringe sources are reliable sources for documenting the view of the mainstream scientific community. Finally, the fact that the mainstream scientific view is presently relegated to a separate section at the bottom of the page is not idea. The mainstream view should be clear from the beginning and should be incorporated wherever possible throughout the article to lend balance and perspective to fringe claims. I will try to work on this over time, but it may be a big project, so help would be appreciated. Locke9k ( talk) 17:04, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
Ok, I have done some major cleanup on this section. I haven't removed any references or general facts, but I have cut out a lot of the excessive detail in order to keep the same information while reducing the undue weight issue of giving too much space to a fringe view. I'll probably work on it some more later, but hopefully this is a start. Locke9k ( talk) 21:55, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
Locke9k has done some major cleanup on this section cutting a lot of excessive detail reducing the undue weight issue. What other suggestions are there for future editing in this section?--
Timpicerilo (
talk)
13:43, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
Since this material is covered in short in the introduction and since the later section went into excessive detail (and rather poor writing) I removed it. It did not ad anything to the article but promote a certain agenda that took all neutrality out of the issue. This isn't the Skeptical Inquirer article on Bigfoot, it is the Wikipedia article. Gingermint ( talk) 21:43, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
This is just in plain words: a crappy, one-sided definition. Daegling holds no position to be labeled as the "Scientific community". All of you are taking your personal stance on this issue and dumping into this wiki page. Shame on you hypocrites. The first paragraph.. neigh the FIRST SENTENCE needs a re-do and contain neutrality as it DOES NOT contain such. Rokclimber17 ( talk • contribs) 18:17, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
Jane Goodall is not a 'fringe scientist', but is rather an internationally recognized primatologist who has been recognized for major contributions to the field. Goodall has publicly stated that she believes that Bigfoot does exist. Sean7phil ( talk) 13:16, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
I am with you that picture of big foot looks like a gorila walking on two legs. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.160.42.76 ( talk) 01:34, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
The wording of the opening statement is still sub-optimal. It is somewhat misleading, using fallacious terms such as "scientific community" (a fictitious entity) and "scientific consensus" (an oxymoron often employed as a formal fallacy), and is even contradicted by properly supported statements made later in the article. Several of the sources cited (including Daegling's book) do not actually support the preceding statements, or are themselves of questionable validity. For example, one source, used to support the postulate that there would be an insufficient breeding population, appears to be a blog. In an objective article, logical fallacies should be avoided, as well as our own postulates and conclusions ( WP:OR). To this end, I have removed the fallacious terms, the blog as a source, and tried to sum Bigfoot as factually, and concisely as possible. Magic pumpkin ( talk) 20:47, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
I do realize that there are some editors who are very passionate about portraying bigfoot as nothing more than a myth, and are willing to resort to fallacies in order to do it, but please consider this. The Scientific Bigfoot Research Community would obviously be at odds with having an editor claim that they claim that their research topic doesn't exist, while the Scientific Native American Mythology Research Community may be perfectly fine with calling bigfoot a myth. The Scientific Zoology Community would probably prefer we don't put words into their mouths, as they have never actually had an opportunity to study a bigfoot, so as to make conclusions pertaining to its diet, habitat, social structure, and reproduction. Then again, maybe some zoologist has, but has not yet put the evidence up for a community vote, not that there is a vote. Magic pumpkin ( talk) 20:47, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
Good tweaks, the revised lead works much better. - LuckyLouie ( talk) 19:51, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
The blog post cited in this edit isn't a reliable source for criticism of mainstream scientific opinions about Bigfoot. - LuckyLouie ( talk) 20:51, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
"Canadian Sasquatch authority, John Green, wasn’t positive about the book and stated, “there are enough factual errors and ill founded assumptions to thoroughly mislead anyone who has no other source of information on the subject." Minnesota filmmaker Doug Hajicek, responsible for the production of Sasquatch: Legend Meets Science weighed in as well, “this author should be ashamed of using his credentials to skate by with laziness of both action and thinking.” "I’m not sure if Dr. Daegling proofread his manuscript. Says the Florida anthropologist, “individual mammals do not extend their home ranges across entire continents.” Whether you are in Alaska or Florida, all you have to do is roll down your window and you’ll see plenty of mammals: people." "Daegling might be his own worst enemy in reference to the “r” word: replication. It is seen on pages 62, 63, 132, 214 and probably elsewhere. In reference to an old story about scientists Fleischman and Pons and their ‘cold fusion’ Daegling would write, “...when researchers at other institutions tried to replicate the results, they came up empty more often than not.” Later he writes, “replication of results is absolutely critical for a claim to be scientifically valid.”-- Timpicerilo ( talk) 23:49, 21 June 2010 (UTC)