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[The following edit relates to an article edit in relation to the "My Tidy Up" topic, though the reasons given refer to the reasons given relate to the unconnected "Information on enforcement" topic - see the "Unfortunate Confusion" topic below. As additions to this section are continuing, I have inserted the above "My Tidy Up - Redux" topic header to separate it from "Information on enforcement". Hopefully this will help folk navigate and allow the "Information on enforcement" topic to continue without being usurped by this one.
I will return later to respond to the comments below. Kiwikiped ( talk) 18:45, 5 July 2013 (UTC)]
If someone wanted to write the article Bicycle helmets in New South Wales then the info might be due weight there; it is not here. - Sitush ( talk) 20:56, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
Can you please undo your accidental reversion.
We can discuss issues over "Information on Enforcement" separately, like Richard Keatinge I think you are wrong on this one and this needs to be resolved. But let's sort out this accidental reversion first! Kiwikiped ( talk) 23:38, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
(With apologies in advance to Tim C ;-)) Sigh.
What is it about this topic which so encourages going around in circles, stubbornness, etc., etc.? Previously when faced with the endless merry-go-round so beloved of editors in this forum I've ended up resorting to a detailed analysis and history to make the games and rule violations obvious, and fortunately we've been able to move to conclusion. I considered doing so again, but frankly I doubt it would help with the particular three positions now prevalent.
Let's see if we can really wrap this up. So much trouble over three (currently two, one at best postponed till a later date) sentences! To keep things short I'll comment on just two things Sitush writes:
Seriously?? Sitush nixes two edits, on different topics, by different editors, and starts confusion. Later he nixes a later edit, giving reasons completely off topic, and places the Talk comment in a different topic. On his talk page Sitush writes "Whether confused or not, I'm still correct." And then after having apologised, making reference to medication, indicating he will be away for a few days, comes back after a few hours, continues with multiple postings, and implies that somehow the identity of the person whose edit he reverted caused him to start all the confusion? Words fail. Probably violates a Wikipedia policy, or three, as well but let's skip the legalese.
Sitush continues:
The argument simply does not stand up, Australia is a federation of States and Territories, they have their own laws, their own priorities, etc.; but they are all Australia and share federal law. Does an article on America, with a similar arrangement, have to only quote sources which cover all 52 States? Of course not.
We will soon have a Federal election [1]. If, say, Tasmania decides to run a referendum at the same time with the question "Do you support the continued existence of the bicycle helmet legislation" should that and its outcome be reported in this article? Surely yes? Except by the rules Sitush is choosing to impose, and I see no consensus for this position, it will not be allowed. This appears to make a mockery of Wikipedia as an Encyclopedia.
In my opinion, in dealing with this topic, given the strong opposing views, one needs firmness, but not stubbornness - accept in being resilient to the inevitable slings and arrows, in the pursuit of NPOV. I fear a kind of inappropriate ownership WP:OWN is being enforced without consensus - there are now three distinct positions held by regular editors of this article.
Let's move to the topic at hand, a brief history of the edit:
1. On visiting this page after some time I found it much improved, I wrote:
2. These rough edges were things out of order, a few wrong words, a duplicate reference, etc. So I tidied up. Just a litte janitorial effort.
3. Once the janitorial work was done I noticed that there was a chronological omission, the article did not report the present day situation. I thought I could address that with three short NPOV sentences... Yes, as I've had cause to remark on this forum before, I am a fool sometimes...
And the merry-go-round started up...
However we need progress, not continual blockading, so...
Let's move forward!
I am going to make another, so-called "bold", edit based on the following reasoning:
A. The article has a chronological gap, it does not report the present day situation. Wikipedia should be up-to-date.
B. It is incontrovertible that Australian academics/researchers continue to produce research whose conclusions fall into too broad categories - research that is supportive of helmets laws, and research that is unsupportive. The debate continues in Australia (as it does elsewhere, but that is not for this article to mention).
C. Sitush expresses a strong dislike for providing any actual examples unless they meet his own self-imposed criteria. While this does not follow normal Wikipedia practice, where references are made to support the facts presented, he is most insistent on this point - indeed to the point of appearing to claim the right to veto the article contents in possible violation of WP:OWN. While the motivation for this position may be for the good, I disagree, and think Wikipedia will be the poorer for it, but such is life. No examples will be included.
Of course I've offered a version without references before and it was vetoed with the remark "BRD is the argument" - which might be fine accept that WP:BRD makes it clear that BRD is not an argument in itself but a process... Kiwikiped ( talk) 00:05, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
Above there are two separate threads "My Tidy Up" and "Information on enforcement" on different topics relating to text by different editors. Unfortunately the issues started with some confusion as Sitush reverted both separate edits as a single action, and while the threads were separated there are still comments in the wrong thread after that point. To err is human and collectively we did so here.
Unfortunately when the BRD process for the first thread came to its natural end and I added the resultant text, which was the original text, into the article Sitush unintentionally reverted that edit giving as reasons issues to do with the second, unrelated topic. Sitush has apologise for this confusion, referring to a medical issue, but his ongoing comments do not fully add up (e.g. ongoing references to NSW). This is a somewhat delicate situation, Sitush has made a valuable contribution to this and other articles on Wikipedia, and Wikipedia is not the place to be discussing his personal circumstances. On the other hand we cannot have the BRD process confused and edits revoked with invalid justification. Sitush has also indicated he will be away for a few days. I am sure we all wish him well and hope he is feeling better by the time he returns.
On his talk page Sitush has suggested that he intended {{ Essay-like}} rather than WP:ESSAY in doing the reversion, but if I have untwined the threads correctly and then he might have been meaning {{ Tone}}, but I of course cannot be sure of that. This is in relation to the final part of the edit only, which refers to the recent organisation by the opposition which pairs with a comment in the History section. If that is the issue, while it should have been raised in the BRD process, it is down to my choice of language and it can certainly be dealt with. I will look at rewording keeping that in mind, even if {{ Tone}} is not a concern there should be no harm in such a rewording.
I will separate the edit into two, one on the continuing academic debate closed by the BRD process above, and one of the organisation of the opposition. Kiwikiped ( talk) 04:52, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
Is this the "1989" AGB McNair survey that is currently tagged as requiring a full citation? - Sitush ( talk) 09:06, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
In re-instating the de Jong reference, Kiwikiped appears to have overlooked my comments of 30 June:
In asking (at 22:28 on 30 June) "Are reliable cyclist-population counts available to pair with fine counts?", Kiwikiped appears to have overlooked this info I had posted about 10 hours earlier: "According to ERASS surveys, in 2010 there were 603,500 cyclists aged 15 and over in NSW. 6,537/603,500=1.1%".
Dorre had previously commented: "I'm not sure everyone would agree that 10,000 cyclists receiving fines every year in a state of about 4 million people represents a tiny fringe."
According to the ABS data I have been using, the population of NSW was about 4 million in 1991, and about 7 million in 2005 and 2010.
I have been unable to find any info on the total number traffic infringement notices (TINs) issued in NSW, some rough calculations using the limited data I have been able to find:
Kiwikiped claims that my request for a declaration of any interest/s with respect to the BHRF is filibustering, and that I have "gone off on a tangent", introducing some of my "pet whipping posts, which are completely irrelevant". Around the time that Sitush was pressing Dorre and Colin at cycling to declare any relevant interest/s, Sitush noted that " Dorre is a potentially misleading name for a WP:SPA account because a person called Dorre Robinson does much more than just 'cycle for transport'. I'll probably raise the issue at UAA or COIN when I get home." Asking that Kiwikiped declare any interest/s with respect to the BHRF is neither filibustering nor (completely) irrelevant. Linda.m.ward ( talk) 06:56, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
Kiwikiped has accused me of choosing to ignore the invitation to nominate an anti-helmet paper that would merit being referenced in the article. This claim is as arrogant as it is baseless. I was writing a response explaining why none of the 'anti' papers that I am aware of hold up to scrutiny, when 'somebody' cut through a fibre link (in Queensland), and Darwin dropped out of cyberspace for several hours . . .
With respect to Rissel
(Given that errors identified by Tim C resulted in the retraction of the Rissel paper, and a whole-of-article corrigendum for the Elvik paper, Kiwikiped's previous description of Tim C as a "seeker of insignificant errors" seems more than a little odd.)
In various papers, Robinson has claimed that
In the 2006 article, Robinson cites injury data from an SA study by Marshall et al., but fails to note that participation data in the same study showed that
Injury data from Vic, NSW and SA all indicate that there was (little or) no reduction in cycling as a result of the helmet law. As does the census ride-to-work data, and the SA cycling participation household surveys. Povey et al. made the point that contrary to a claim by Robinson that the helmet law reduced cycling, there was no evidence of any such reduction in Kiwi-land (NZ). (An analysis by Kiwi BHRF editorial board member Nigel Perry used injury data for all Kiwi cyclists, even though the helmet law applies only to on-road cycling, did not take injury severity into account, and concluded that the helmet law failed to improve cyclist safety. This finding is at odds with the results of the Povey study, and data from another Kiwi study by Tin Tin et al..)
Robinson's 2006 article also contained a number of 'inaccuracies' with respect to the study by Carr et al.
With respect to the study by Marshall et al., in addition to failing to cite the data that indicated that there was no reduction in (overall) cycling, Robinson
Curnow's outrageous cherry-picking with respect to cycling participation has recently been highlighted by Tim C, a further example is contained in Robinson's 2005 paper: "Curnow (2005) compared 1988 (before any helmet law) with 1994 (when all states had enforced laws); cyclist, pedestrian and all road user deaths fell by 35%, 36% and 38% respectively; head-injury deaths fell by 30%, 38% and 42%. Thus, despite helmet legislation, the reductions for cyclists were no greater than for other road users." It beggars belief that a "senior statistician" cited/accepted without question, a single year comparison either side of the law. ATSB data shows that between 1992 and 1994, compared to 1987-1989, the number of pedestrian fatalities fell by 28%, and the number of cyclist fatalities fell by 45%.
Robinson's 1996 analysis found that the risk of dying of head injury per million hours was 0.19 for cyclists, 0.34 for pedestrians, and 0.17 for car occupants. The finding that cyclist are less at considerably less risk than pedestrians, and are at about at the same level of risk as car occupants is hugely at odd with a (2010) study by Tin Tin et al., and data published by the UK Department for Transport Statistics (DfTS). Tin Tin et al. found that in NZ between 2003 and 2007, the average number of serious (AIS>2) injuries per million hours spent travelling was 6.2 for cyclists, 1.0 for pedestrians, and 0.8 for car/van drivers. The UK DfTS data shows that in 2011, cyclists comprised 1.0% of the kilometres travelled and 13% of reported road deaths and serious injuries; cars/taxis comprised 78% of the kilometres travelled, car occupants comprised 37% of reported road deaths and serious injuries. This data suggests that the risk of death or serious injury per kilometre travelled in the UK is 27 times higher for cyclists than for car occupants.
(In Robinson's 2001 article, Robinson claimed that Povey et al. "did not fit a time-trend in their models". Povey et al. noted that cyclist limb fractures reflects both the amount of travel done by cyclists and changes to the cycling environment, which include changes in the nature of cycle use and safety improvements in the overall road environment". It seems that Robinson did not realise that including a limb injury effect in the model was doing what Robinson describes as "fitting a time-trend'. The only time I have enountered an expression such as "fit a time-trend" is when it has been used by Robinson. In the modelling methodology I am familiar with, and teach, trends are not 'fitted', models are fitted, trend effect terms are included to improve model fit.)
As (more recently) noted by Tim C, the fact that de Jong resides in Australian is irrelevant, the evaluation does not include any Australian data.
Linda.m.ward ( talk) 12:54, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
(Added a header, I think Colin at cycling is starting a new topic. Kiwikiped ( talk) 00:11, 6 July 2013 (UTC))
I am not at all sure the topic is suitable for Wiki to cover. As far as I know Wiki reports topic where the evidence is clear. Some of the evidence relating to bicycle helmets in Australia is not very clear in one way or another. I would probably suggest deleting the whole topic. In any case the present article is not a NPOV in some respects. It does not cover issues properly and fails to convey points where agreement has not occurred. It could be better to bin the article than mislead the public. A few examples may help. No info on fines or changes in cycling levels caused by imposing legislation, it mentions the claim that helmets reduce injuries by 40% or conveys indication that they may but the claim came from 1987 when most helmets were hard shell, no longer in common use, but it does not explain this aspect. Issues via Wiki seem to be suppressed rather than resolved. Wiki cannot provide original research so it cannot make real progress. Details of articles supporting legislation are included but little information conveyed directly of any opposing view. what does Wiki say about covering topics were the evidence may be unclear in some respects? Colin at cycling ( talk) 21:30, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
Obviously what's not clear is the exact impact of those laws on cycling numbers and on cyclist safety. This article needs to find a way of addressing this with a NPOV. That's the challenge but it's definitely not worth deleting the entire article simply because it's a big challenge that we haven't rise to yet (but have taken great steps towards). Dsnmi ( talk) 05:48, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
Much of the articles relates to the helmet laws and several papers have been published together with various other reports. looking at the sections and contents, e.g.
'Because Australian bicycle helmet laws came into effect before such laws were enacted elsewhere, much of the data about mandatory bicycle helmet use comes from Australia'
'History: lead-up to the laws'
'Two Decades On[edit] Two decades after the introduction of the first mandatory helmet laws in Australia the debate is still ongoing as to the merits'
Research[edit] 'Empirical studies of helmet use by injured cyclists were published from the late 1980s, some in Australia, both before and after helmet legislation.'
'Legal requirements'
Clearly if all references to the helmet laws are removed there is not much left.
Seriously, to report the issues is not that difficult.
They expected reduced fatalities and injuries, based on claims of halving the fatality rate and 85% / 88% reduction in head or brain injuries, both claims later revised down considerably. They did not take account of the health implications if people cycled less. They assumed that seat belts and motorcycle helmets were similar in some way to cycle helmets. They had vested interests who could gain from being the first to legislate and gain a potentially larger market share for helmet production. Cycling groups were not sure that legislation would be enforced even if introduced. After legislation the authorities noted that cycling had been reduced so limited surveys and made the issue less clear than it could have been. e.g if all none wearers stopped cycling there would be a 100% wearing rate but focusing on the wearing rate of 100% would take attention from the reduction in cycling. Victoria published results from 64 survey sites in Melbourne, representing 640 hours of surveying. NSW had extensive surveys. Only one report used survey data and related to accident data in the immediate years following legislation, Robinson 1996. The data presented strongly indicated that safety had been reduced, Australia does not have annual survey information on overall cycling activity levels therefore they cannot be sure about the accident rates per billion km. Road safety, age profile of cyclists have tended to change over time making it difficult to evaluate helmet effects in isolation. Added to this the accident rate appears to have increased with helmet use. Plus extra provision for safe cycling has been provided and cycle training has increased. Thousands of fines had to be issued and the level of fines increased substantially to deter people from riding without helmets. Australia failed to provided a full health and safety assessment of the changes that occurred. 20 years on the vexed issue continues because the safety case is questionable, high fines are imposed, civil liberties reduced and around the world most countries can enjoy their cycling without having to imposed legislation. Australia does not want to admit it was a mistake.
One problem is that helmet believers or supporters do not accept the facts and wish to avoid providing the details, that is why so much is disputed. Colin at cycling ( talk) 20:19, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
Despite repeated requests to declare any relevant interest/s,
Colin at cycling has avoided like the plague stating whether it is true that he is Colin Clarke (long-time Brit anti-helmet campaigner). Clarke's (NZMJ) article, purportedly about the effects of the helmet law in NZ, 'overlooks' many facts that do not support his claim that the helmet law did more harm than good. (Having encountered such material in their literature review, a competent and objective researcher would have reported these critical facts in their article.)
Clarke's NZMJ article
Colin Clarke is a campaigner with the CTC ( http://www.ctc.org.uk/campaigns/right-to-ride/rep/mr-colin-clarke), a British cycling organisation that has "long campaigned against helmet laws" ( http://www.ctc.org.uk/campaign/cycle-helmets-evidence). It would be rather detrimental to the (British) anti-helmet cause if the "truth were to be let out of the bag".
It has been stated several time that Colin@cycling has no substantial conflict of interest in regards to the article. Anyone opposing helmet laws will probably not gain from possible reduced helmet sales or is unlikely to gain in any other way.
If the ID is provided by one person should it not be provided by all wiki editors? I am happy to use my name if a Wiki requirement applies for all editors. I think a clear Wiki policy is needed to avoid some from using pseudonyms and others using their own names.
Details of a NZ report I would suggest could be a distraction from the topic.
Colin at cycling ( talk) 19:17, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
'Large' deleted - 2 citations provided were to Vic 1991, Walker NSW. In NSW 25% wore helmets pre law and for Vic about 30% roughly, using 'large' may give a wrong impression. Colin at cycling ( talk) 20:16, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
As for your comment regarding removals, any studies restricted to one state are dangerous things in this article: different laws, different times etc. I've said all this before and, frankly, am getting fed up that people riding various hobbyhorses cannot see the blindingly obvious point that this article is not about X or Y state/territory and thus that selecting certain areas is bound to be undue weight. Your conflict of interest may not be commercial but it is represented through your advocacy role with the CTC and your extremely obvious POV. - Sitush ( talk) 23:49, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for the details provided, your point of view is made even clearer and this helps in understanding. I tend to agree with a slow approach. Unfortunately what exist are mainly state reports about their helmet laws. A few national reports may be accessible. They are state laws. It would be like trying to write a wiki page ‘bike helmets in GB’, but Wales or Scotland or NI may have different histories, trying to lump them together may not be the best approach.
You say; Your conflict of interest may not be commercial but it is represented through your advocacy role with the CTC and your extremely obvious POV.
The CTC position is not anti helmet but pro choice. Most countries or states/provinces are either pro choice or some pro legislation for children. My position is strongly pro choice, like the CTC but I can take my own position. I do not see a conflict of interest in a person taking this position, at least less conflict of interest than being pro helmet or pro legislation. They would be advising either using a product that has some know risks or supporting removing freedom of choice, again with know public health potential disadvantages.
I do not really agree that having a pro choice point of view or writing reports on helmets or helmet laws constitute a ‘conflict of interest’, it primarily slows an interest in the topic and supporting civil liberties. Admittedly Wiki publishing information that conflicts with an author’s view may lead to disputes. It is part of the difficulty in dealing with the topic but all information should be considered. For Wiki to provide a NPOV it should be aware of all points of view. Colin at cycling ( talk) 09:51, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
I have already said - and probably more than once - that if someone wants to write an article about, say, bicycle helmets in NSW then the reports relevant to NSW might be applicable. Note: might and note that you almost certainly should not write it. - Sitush ( talk) 10:51, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
One part states; A report from the Australian Department of Transport in 1987 examined cycling accident victims and found that "of the unhelmeted cases involving severe head injury, over 40 percent would definitely have had an improved outcome if a substantial bicycle helmet had been worn". It also found that, while "children do have substantial protection from impacts to the head when wearing a bicycle helmet, it is likely that substantial head deformation occurs in a major impact due to the stiffness of the bicycle helmet liner in the Australian Standard bicycle helmet." It recommended changes to the standards, in particular softer foam, which were not implemented.[17]
I have expanded the details to include information allowing the reader to understand the claims better.
A report from the Australian Department of Transport in 1987 examined 171 cycling accident victims and reported 19 to be serious. Helmets used at the time were mainly hard shell heavier types that are no longer in common use for cycling. It estimated that of the unhelmeted cases involving severe head injury, over 40 percent would definitely have had an improved outcome if a substantial bicycle helmet had been worn, 8 cases from 19 serious. It also found that, while children do have substantial protection from impacts to the head when wearing a bicycle helmet, it is likely that substantial head deformation occurs in a major impact due to the stiffness of the bicycle helmet liner in the Australian Standard bicycle helmet. It recommended changes to the standards, in particular softer foam, which were not implemented.[17]
I think this explains the findings better, any suggestions to make it clearer? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.141.121.28 ( talk) 13:48, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
Cutting down seems a more promising approach. Any comments on this idea? Richard Keatinge ( talk) 15:53, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
So, User:Colin at cycling, you are suggesting that the surgeons and injury researchers involved in lobbying for mandatory helmets in the 1980s may have engaged in insider trading? If so, could you please make those suggestions somewhere else, not on WP, not even on these Talk pages. The BHRF web site carries material that impugns the integrity of researchers - see for example the reference to Hynd et al. on this page http://www.cyclehelmets.org/1047.html which describes their work with the words "Despite attempts to manipulate the results..." - they might be willing to publish your suspicions. Tim C ( talk) 05:13, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
The material reinstated by Kiwikiped is not acceptable. There are 2 Robinson references, yet no mention of the MUARC, NSW/RTA, SA DoRS, UWA or UNSW studies. As noted by Sitush, there is no consensus, the material should be (re-)removed. Linda.m.ward ( talk) 09:30, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
I included the following information on fines, with 3 citations, that was removed without sufficient reason being provided, please explain.
"Victoria issued more than 19,000 fines ($15 each) for not wearing helmets in the first 12 months of their helmet law. [2] In 2005 almost 10,000 cyclists in NSW were fined for not wearing a helmet but that number has reduced. [3] In 2013 fines are now $176 in Victoria and lower in other states. [4] Colin at cycling ( talk) 14:11, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
You may have questions, but having questions is not sufficient reason to undue posts. If you asked the questions first and did not obtain reasonable information then perhaps it would give grounds to undue a post.
The article states: "Mandatory helmet laws were first introduced in Victoria in July 1990, followed in January 1991 by laws for adult cyclists in New South Wales and all age-groups in Tasmania." The first piece of information related to Victoria and the info is on the web for anyone to check out. "Victoria issued more than 19,000 fines ($15 each) for not wearing helmets in the first 12 months of their helmet law. [5]
The second reference: "In 2005 almost 10,000 cyclists in NSW were fined for not wearing a helmet but that number has reduced. [6] can also be checked
The info on fines provides a useful comparison between when the law was first introduced and current levels.
If you can provide sound reasons why the information should not be included we can discuss these. No reasons have been provided so far. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Colin at cycling ( talk • contribs) 17:33, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
Sitush (talk) 10:59, 26 June 2013 (UTC wrote "I've reverted your latter change and the likely more problematic survey added by Colin, who has a considerable POV. Surveys are problematic and need discussions before addition, as per my previous comment in the section above. I'm now away for a couple of days, so that should provide some time for people to talk. - Sitush (talk) 10:59, 26 June 2013 (UTC)"
it stated "A survey in Victoria reported that eighteen percent of respondents did not know that legislation was being introduced. A lower awareness amongst adults was noted. [7]"
A survey in Victoria from 61% of respondents who already owned a helmet, reported 84% in favour of mandation. Eighteen percent of respondents did not know that legislation was being introduced. A lower awareness amongst adults was apparent. Thirteen percent reported they would either cycle less or not at all. AGB Bike helmet survey published May 1990. The articles states "Opposition was fragmented and ineffective; no major cycling groups opposed the law in public" It is good for the public to be made aware that a proportion of adults did not even know that the law was being introduced. Therefore it is understandable to a degree that opposition was fragmented. It raises the question about the public consultation process and if the public were given suitable information or the topic suitably discussed in the media. Again if good reasons can be provided why this information should not be included they can be discussed Colin at cycling ( talk) 18:23, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
With no good reasons provided why the information, ""A survey in Victoria reported that eighteen percent of respondents did not know that legislation was being introduced. A lower awareness amongst adults was noted. [8]" I intend to reinsert shortly.
Similar with no good reasons being provided for not including the following information, "Victoria issued more than 19,000 fines ($15 each) for not wearing helmets in the first 12 months of their helmet law. [9] In 2005 almost 10,000 cyclists in NSW were fined for not wearing a helmet but that number has reduced. [10] In 2013 fines are now $176 in Victoria and lower in other states. [11] Colin at cycling — Preceding unsigned comment added by Colin at cycling ( talk • contribs) 08:45, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
Sitush, I cannot assume that you act in good faith because you have shown bias in my view with your previous comments and replies. Prior to you joining the discussions a lot of material was being discussed and the contents were lengthy at more than 9000 words but included significant details. Quite a few people had worked on the contents. You admitted not knowing what was right or wrong but taking bold steps with your view and in your assumptions of good faith. You removed most of the content to arrive at a short version of a few aspects, not covering the issue properly, at currently 775 words.
The points I raised;
1 “ Victoria issued more than 19,000 fines ($15 each) for not wearing helmets in the first 12 months of their helmet law.” No one has disputed this information in the Talk section or in previous discussions.
2 In 2005 almost 10,000 cyclists in NSW were fined for not wearing a helmet but that number has reduced.[9] No one has disputed this information in the Talk section or in previous discussions.
3 In 2013 fines are now $176 in Victoria and lower in other states.[10] No one has disputed this information in the Talk section or in previous discussions. I explained; “The article states: "Mandatory helmet laws were first introduced in Victoria in July 1990, followed in January 1991 by laws for adult cyclists in New South Wales and all age-groups in Tasmania." The first piece of information related to Victoria and the info is on the web for anyone to check out. "Victoria issued more than 19,000 fines ($15 each) for not wearing helmets in the first 12 months of their helmet law.[4]” Data for some regions has been included in reports or published by the press. National data is generally not provided, so only a portion of the data is available. Wiki can only report data that has been published.
4 The other point I raised “A survey in Victoria reported that eighteen percent of respondents did not know that legislation was being introduced. A lower awareness amongst adults was noted. [12]” You asked to be discussed in the Talk pages, I posted information without reply. The survey I mentioned “Bicycle helmet study AGB Spectrum May 1990” had not previously been discussed. You assume that no agreement on this survey could be found when in fact it had not been discussed.
So, really you are off the mark, in your approach and judgment, together with the underlying bias. I suggest the 4 points go to an independent evaluation to consider if they should be included. Colin at cycling ( talk) 15:37, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
Some have mentioned the number of fines vs. the size of the population, a reasonable point surely. This seems harder to address in an NPOV way - is %age of the population or rate of issue more important? E.g. 10,000 fines might be a small or large proportion of the population, it's also - given that we all sleep - around one fine every 30 minutes. Quoting any of those is likely to be seen as biased by someone! As in just about the whole of this debate, what and how you count and what you deem important decides what results you produce. Are reliable cyclist-population counts available to pair with fine counts? Any consensus on what additional, if any, contextual information should accompanying fine numbers? Kiwikiped ( talk) 22:28, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
Basically Australia has states helmet laws, the levels of fines vary and are open to the police discretion if they give a ticket. Some of the number of fines have been detailed for some states and for a selected years. Australian data covering the whole country has not been reported as far as I know because they are state matters subject state laws. The article has only two main section 'Legal requirements' being one but then it provides no information about the enforcement aspect. Some data has been published. Williams RESEARCH NOTE 17/94 EVALUATION OF THE NSW INTRODUCTION OF COMPULSORY BICYCLE HELMET LEGISLATION Meredyth-Ann Williams Page 13 Table 2 provides data for 1991, 92, 93, fines were 5.8K, 15.2k, 14k respectively. For Victoria the most widely quoted figure has probably been the 19k. Wiki can provide an indication of the enforcement aspect and this was my intention. It is one of the aspects that can be considered a fact, x fines were issued. Accident data can change due to several factors. Wiki would be providing facts on this issue. My view is of course this would be worth including. Colin at cycling ( talk) 17:27, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
ps If I had been selecting data with the intention to focus on the least favourable data then the 1992 data for NSW would probably have been used but I mentioned more recent data indicating less than 10k fines, "In 2005 almost 10,000 cyclists in NSW were fined for not wearing a helmet but that number has reduced" In any case, I wanted just a brief mention and not heaps of details Colin at cycling ( talk) 17:53, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
Colin at cycling, I made a suggestion above as a way forward on this impasse. To address
Sitush's concerns any edit must avoid the possibility of invalid inference by including wording along the lines of "Information for other States and Territories is not readily available, and may be higher or lower than those quoted.". Furthermore any figures quoted should be the latest available, for example
Linda.m.ward has pointed out that there are more recent figures for NSW, these clearly must be used rather than older ones. Are you willing to propose wording meeting these criteria? Or make an argument the criteria are wrong? Let's wrap this up!
Kiwikiped (
talk) 19:37, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
Most comments indicates that some information on fines should be included and I suggest the following. "Fines for not wearing helmets vary from state to state and national data on the number of fines has not been published. One report detailed Victoria issued more than 19,000 fines ($15 each) for not wearing helmets in the first 12 months of their helmet law. [16] A newspaper reported that in 2005 almost 10,000 cyclists in NSW were fined for not wearing a helmet but that number reduced to 6537 in 2009. http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/cyclists-getting-an-easy-ride-20101208-18px7.html ref>'Cyclists 'getting an easy ride' SMH http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/cyclists-getting-an-easy-ride-20101208-18px7.html</ref> In 2013 fines are now $176 in Victoria and lower in other states. [17] Colin at cycling ( talk) 10:32, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
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[The following edit relates to an article edit in relation to the "My Tidy Up" topic, though the reasons given refer to the reasons given relate to the unconnected "Information on enforcement" topic - see the "Unfortunate Confusion" topic below. As additions to this section are continuing, I have inserted the above "My Tidy Up - Redux" topic header to separate it from "Information on enforcement". Hopefully this will help folk navigate and allow the "Information on enforcement" topic to continue without being usurped by this one.
I will return later to respond to the comments below. Kiwikiped ( talk) 18:45, 5 July 2013 (UTC)]
If someone wanted to write the article Bicycle helmets in New South Wales then the info might be due weight there; it is not here. - Sitush ( talk) 20:56, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
Can you please undo your accidental reversion.
We can discuss issues over "Information on Enforcement" separately, like Richard Keatinge I think you are wrong on this one and this needs to be resolved. But let's sort out this accidental reversion first! Kiwikiped ( talk) 23:38, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
(With apologies in advance to Tim C ;-)) Sigh.
What is it about this topic which so encourages going around in circles, stubbornness, etc., etc.? Previously when faced with the endless merry-go-round so beloved of editors in this forum I've ended up resorting to a detailed analysis and history to make the games and rule violations obvious, and fortunately we've been able to move to conclusion. I considered doing so again, but frankly I doubt it would help with the particular three positions now prevalent.
Let's see if we can really wrap this up. So much trouble over three (currently two, one at best postponed till a later date) sentences! To keep things short I'll comment on just two things Sitush writes:
Seriously?? Sitush nixes two edits, on different topics, by different editors, and starts confusion. Later he nixes a later edit, giving reasons completely off topic, and places the Talk comment in a different topic. On his talk page Sitush writes "Whether confused or not, I'm still correct." And then after having apologised, making reference to medication, indicating he will be away for a few days, comes back after a few hours, continues with multiple postings, and implies that somehow the identity of the person whose edit he reverted caused him to start all the confusion? Words fail. Probably violates a Wikipedia policy, or three, as well but let's skip the legalese.
Sitush continues:
The argument simply does not stand up, Australia is a federation of States and Territories, they have their own laws, their own priorities, etc.; but they are all Australia and share federal law. Does an article on America, with a similar arrangement, have to only quote sources which cover all 52 States? Of course not.
We will soon have a Federal election [1]. If, say, Tasmania decides to run a referendum at the same time with the question "Do you support the continued existence of the bicycle helmet legislation" should that and its outcome be reported in this article? Surely yes? Except by the rules Sitush is choosing to impose, and I see no consensus for this position, it will not be allowed. This appears to make a mockery of Wikipedia as an Encyclopedia.
In my opinion, in dealing with this topic, given the strong opposing views, one needs firmness, but not stubbornness - accept in being resilient to the inevitable slings and arrows, in the pursuit of NPOV. I fear a kind of inappropriate ownership WP:OWN is being enforced without consensus - there are now three distinct positions held by regular editors of this article.
Let's move to the topic at hand, a brief history of the edit:
1. On visiting this page after some time I found it much improved, I wrote:
2. These rough edges were things out of order, a few wrong words, a duplicate reference, etc. So I tidied up. Just a litte janitorial effort.
3. Once the janitorial work was done I noticed that there was a chronological omission, the article did not report the present day situation. I thought I could address that with three short NPOV sentences... Yes, as I've had cause to remark on this forum before, I am a fool sometimes...
And the merry-go-round started up...
However we need progress, not continual blockading, so...
Let's move forward!
I am going to make another, so-called "bold", edit based on the following reasoning:
A. The article has a chronological gap, it does not report the present day situation. Wikipedia should be up-to-date.
B. It is incontrovertible that Australian academics/researchers continue to produce research whose conclusions fall into too broad categories - research that is supportive of helmets laws, and research that is unsupportive. The debate continues in Australia (as it does elsewhere, but that is not for this article to mention).
C. Sitush expresses a strong dislike for providing any actual examples unless they meet his own self-imposed criteria. While this does not follow normal Wikipedia practice, where references are made to support the facts presented, he is most insistent on this point - indeed to the point of appearing to claim the right to veto the article contents in possible violation of WP:OWN. While the motivation for this position may be for the good, I disagree, and think Wikipedia will be the poorer for it, but such is life. No examples will be included.
Of course I've offered a version without references before and it was vetoed with the remark "BRD is the argument" - which might be fine accept that WP:BRD makes it clear that BRD is not an argument in itself but a process... Kiwikiped ( talk) 00:05, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
Above there are two separate threads "My Tidy Up" and "Information on enforcement" on different topics relating to text by different editors. Unfortunately the issues started with some confusion as Sitush reverted both separate edits as a single action, and while the threads were separated there are still comments in the wrong thread after that point. To err is human and collectively we did so here.
Unfortunately when the BRD process for the first thread came to its natural end and I added the resultant text, which was the original text, into the article Sitush unintentionally reverted that edit giving as reasons issues to do with the second, unrelated topic. Sitush has apologise for this confusion, referring to a medical issue, but his ongoing comments do not fully add up (e.g. ongoing references to NSW). This is a somewhat delicate situation, Sitush has made a valuable contribution to this and other articles on Wikipedia, and Wikipedia is not the place to be discussing his personal circumstances. On the other hand we cannot have the BRD process confused and edits revoked with invalid justification. Sitush has also indicated he will be away for a few days. I am sure we all wish him well and hope he is feeling better by the time he returns.
On his talk page Sitush has suggested that he intended {{ Essay-like}} rather than WP:ESSAY in doing the reversion, but if I have untwined the threads correctly and then he might have been meaning {{ Tone}}, but I of course cannot be sure of that. This is in relation to the final part of the edit only, which refers to the recent organisation by the opposition which pairs with a comment in the History section. If that is the issue, while it should have been raised in the BRD process, it is down to my choice of language and it can certainly be dealt with. I will look at rewording keeping that in mind, even if {{ Tone}} is not a concern there should be no harm in such a rewording.
I will separate the edit into two, one on the continuing academic debate closed by the BRD process above, and one of the organisation of the opposition. Kiwikiped ( talk) 04:52, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
Is this the "1989" AGB McNair survey that is currently tagged as requiring a full citation? - Sitush ( talk) 09:06, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
In re-instating the de Jong reference, Kiwikiped appears to have overlooked my comments of 30 June:
In asking (at 22:28 on 30 June) "Are reliable cyclist-population counts available to pair with fine counts?", Kiwikiped appears to have overlooked this info I had posted about 10 hours earlier: "According to ERASS surveys, in 2010 there were 603,500 cyclists aged 15 and over in NSW. 6,537/603,500=1.1%".
Dorre had previously commented: "I'm not sure everyone would agree that 10,000 cyclists receiving fines every year in a state of about 4 million people represents a tiny fringe."
According to the ABS data I have been using, the population of NSW was about 4 million in 1991, and about 7 million in 2005 and 2010.
I have been unable to find any info on the total number traffic infringement notices (TINs) issued in NSW, some rough calculations using the limited data I have been able to find:
Kiwikiped claims that my request for a declaration of any interest/s with respect to the BHRF is filibustering, and that I have "gone off on a tangent", introducing some of my "pet whipping posts, which are completely irrelevant". Around the time that Sitush was pressing Dorre and Colin at cycling to declare any relevant interest/s, Sitush noted that " Dorre is a potentially misleading name for a WP:SPA account because a person called Dorre Robinson does much more than just 'cycle for transport'. I'll probably raise the issue at UAA or COIN when I get home." Asking that Kiwikiped declare any interest/s with respect to the BHRF is neither filibustering nor (completely) irrelevant. Linda.m.ward ( talk) 06:56, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
Kiwikiped has accused me of choosing to ignore the invitation to nominate an anti-helmet paper that would merit being referenced in the article. This claim is as arrogant as it is baseless. I was writing a response explaining why none of the 'anti' papers that I am aware of hold up to scrutiny, when 'somebody' cut through a fibre link (in Queensland), and Darwin dropped out of cyberspace for several hours . . .
With respect to Rissel
(Given that errors identified by Tim C resulted in the retraction of the Rissel paper, and a whole-of-article corrigendum for the Elvik paper, Kiwikiped's previous description of Tim C as a "seeker of insignificant errors" seems more than a little odd.)
In various papers, Robinson has claimed that
In the 2006 article, Robinson cites injury data from an SA study by Marshall et al., but fails to note that participation data in the same study showed that
Injury data from Vic, NSW and SA all indicate that there was (little or) no reduction in cycling as a result of the helmet law. As does the census ride-to-work data, and the SA cycling participation household surveys. Povey et al. made the point that contrary to a claim by Robinson that the helmet law reduced cycling, there was no evidence of any such reduction in Kiwi-land (NZ). (An analysis by Kiwi BHRF editorial board member Nigel Perry used injury data for all Kiwi cyclists, even though the helmet law applies only to on-road cycling, did not take injury severity into account, and concluded that the helmet law failed to improve cyclist safety. This finding is at odds with the results of the Povey study, and data from another Kiwi study by Tin Tin et al..)
Robinson's 2006 article also contained a number of 'inaccuracies' with respect to the study by Carr et al.
With respect to the study by Marshall et al., in addition to failing to cite the data that indicated that there was no reduction in (overall) cycling, Robinson
Curnow's outrageous cherry-picking with respect to cycling participation has recently been highlighted by Tim C, a further example is contained in Robinson's 2005 paper: "Curnow (2005) compared 1988 (before any helmet law) with 1994 (when all states had enforced laws); cyclist, pedestrian and all road user deaths fell by 35%, 36% and 38% respectively; head-injury deaths fell by 30%, 38% and 42%. Thus, despite helmet legislation, the reductions for cyclists were no greater than for other road users." It beggars belief that a "senior statistician" cited/accepted without question, a single year comparison either side of the law. ATSB data shows that between 1992 and 1994, compared to 1987-1989, the number of pedestrian fatalities fell by 28%, and the number of cyclist fatalities fell by 45%.
Robinson's 1996 analysis found that the risk of dying of head injury per million hours was 0.19 for cyclists, 0.34 for pedestrians, and 0.17 for car occupants. The finding that cyclist are less at considerably less risk than pedestrians, and are at about at the same level of risk as car occupants is hugely at odd with a (2010) study by Tin Tin et al., and data published by the UK Department for Transport Statistics (DfTS). Tin Tin et al. found that in NZ between 2003 and 2007, the average number of serious (AIS>2) injuries per million hours spent travelling was 6.2 for cyclists, 1.0 for pedestrians, and 0.8 for car/van drivers. The UK DfTS data shows that in 2011, cyclists comprised 1.0% of the kilometres travelled and 13% of reported road deaths and serious injuries; cars/taxis comprised 78% of the kilometres travelled, car occupants comprised 37% of reported road deaths and serious injuries. This data suggests that the risk of death or serious injury per kilometre travelled in the UK is 27 times higher for cyclists than for car occupants.
(In Robinson's 2001 article, Robinson claimed that Povey et al. "did not fit a time-trend in their models". Povey et al. noted that cyclist limb fractures reflects both the amount of travel done by cyclists and changes to the cycling environment, which include changes in the nature of cycle use and safety improvements in the overall road environment". It seems that Robinson did not realise that including a limb injury effect in the model was doing what Robinson describes as "fitting a time-trend'. The only time I have enountered an expression such as "fit a time-trend" is when it has been used by Robinson. In the modelling methodology I am familiar with, and teach, trends are not 'fitted', models are fitted, trend effect terms are included to improve model fit.)
As (more recently) noted by Tim C, the fact that de Jong resides in Australian is irrelevant, the evaluation does not include any Australian data.
Linda.m.ward ( talk) 12:54, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
(Added a header, I think Colin at cycling is starting a new topic. Kiwikiped ( talk) 00:11, 6 July 2013 (UTC))
I am not at all sure the topic is suitable for Wiki to cover. As far as I know Wiki reports topic where the evidence is clear. Some of the evidence relating to bicycle helmets in Australia is not very clear in one way or another. I would probably suggest deleting the whole topic. In any case the present article is not a NPOV in some respects. It does not cover issues properly and fails to convey points where agreement has not occurred. It could be better to bin the article than mislead the public. A few examples may help. No info on fines or changes in cycling levels caused by imposing legislation, it mentions the claim that helmets reduce injuries by 40% or conveys indication that they may but the claim came from 1987 when most helmets were hard shell, no longer in common use, but it does not explain this aspect. Issues via Wiki seem to be suppressed rather than resolved. Wiki cannot provide original research so it cannot make real progress. Details of articles supporting legislation are included but little information conveyed directly of any opposing view. what does Wiki say about covering topics were the evidence may be unclear in some respects? Colin at cycling ( talk) 21:30, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
Obviously what's not clear is the exact impact of those laws on cycling numbers and on cyclist safety. This article needs to find a way of addressing this with a NPOV. That's the challenge but it's definitely not worth deleting the entire article simply because it's a big challenge that we haven't rise to yet (but have taken great steps towards). Dsnmi ( talk) 05:48, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
Much of the articles relates to the helmet laws and several papers have been published together with various other reports. looking at the sections and contents, e.g.
'Because Australian bicycle helmet laws came into effect before such laws were enacted elsewhere, much of the data about mandatory bicycle helmet use comes from Australia'
'History: lead-up to the laws'
'Two Decades On[edit] Two decades after the introduction of the first mandatory helmet laws in Australia the debate is still ongoing as to the merits'
Research[edit] 'Empirical studies of helmet use by injured cyclists were published from the late 1980s, some in Australia, both before and after helmet legislation.'
'Legal requirements'
Clearly if all references to the helmet laws are removed there is not much left.
Seriously, to report the issues is not that difficult.
They expected reduced fatalities and injuries, based on claims of halving the fatality rate and 85% / 88% reduction in head or brain injuries, both claims later revised down considerably. They did not take account of the health implications if people cycled less. They assumed that seat belts and motorcycle helmets were similar in some way to cycle helmets. They had vested interests who could gain from being the first to legislate and gain a potentially larger market share for helmet production. Cycling groups were not sure that legislation would be enforced even if introduced. After legislation the authorities noted that cycling had been reduced so limited surveys and made the issue less clear than it could have been. e.g if all none wearers stopped cycling there would be a 100% wearing rate but focusing on the wearing rate of 100% would take attention from the reduction in cycling. Victoria published results from 64 survey sites in Melbourne, representing 640 hours of surveying. NSW had extensive surveys. Only one report used survey data and related to accident data in the immediate years following legislation, Robinson 1996. The data presented strongly indicated that safety had been reduced, Australia does not have annual survey information on overall cycling activity levels therefore they cannot be sure about the accident rates per billion km. Road safety, age profile of cyclists have tended to change over time making it difficult to evaluate helmet effects in isolation. Added to this the accident rate appears to have increased with helmet use. Plus extra provision for safe cycling has been provided and cycle training has increased. Thousands of fines had to be issued and the level of fines increased substantially to deter people from riding without helmets. Australia failed to provided a full health and safety assessment of the changes that occurred. 20 years on the vexed issue continues because the safety case is questionable, high fines are imposed, civil liberties reduced and around the world most countries can enjoy their cycling without having to imposed legislation. Australia does not want to admit it was a mistake.
One problem is that helmet believers or supporters do not accept the facts and wish to avoid providing the details, that is why so much is disputed. Colin at cycling ( talk) 20:19, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
Despite repeated requests to declare any relevant interest/s,
Colin at cycling has avoided like the plague stating whether it is true that he is Colin Clarke (long-time Brit anti-helmet campaigner). Clarke's (NZMJ) article, purportedly about the effects of the helmet law in NZ, 'overlooks' many facts that do not support his claim that the helmet law did more harm than good. (Having encountered such material in their literature review, a competent and objective researcher would have reported these critical facts in their article.)
Clarke's NZMJ article
Colin Clarke is a campaigner with the CTC ( http://www.ctc.org.uk/campaigns/right-to-ride/rep/mr-colin-clarke), a British cycling organisation that has "long campaigned against helmet laws" ( http://www.ctc.org.uk/campaign/cycle-helmets-evidence). It would be rather detrimental to the (British) anti-helmet cause if the "truth were to be let out of the bag".
It has been stated several time that Colin@cycling has no substantial conflict of interest in regards to the article. Anyone opposing helmet laws will probably not gain from possible reduced helmet sales or is unlikely to gain in any other way.
If the ID is provided by one person should it not be provided by all wiki editors? I am happy to use my name if a Wiki requirement applies for all editors. I think a clear Wiki policy is needed to avoid some from using pseudonyms and others using their own names.
Details of a NZ report I would suggest could be a distraction from the topic.
Colin at cycling ( talk) 19:17, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
'Large' deleted - 2 citations provided were to Vic 1991, Walker NSW. In NSW 25% wore helmets pre law and for Vic about 30% roughly, using 'large' may give a wrong impression. Colin at cycling ( talk) 20:16, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
As for your comment regarding removals, any studies restricted to one state are dangerous things in this article: different laws, different times etc. I've said all this before and, frankly, am getting fed up that people riding various hobbyhorses cannot see the blindingly obvious point that this article is not about X or Y state/territory and thus that selecting certain areas is bound to be undue weight. Your conflict of interest may not be commercial but it is represented through your advocacy role with the CTC and your extremely obvious POV. - Sitush ( talk) 23:49, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for the details provided, your point of view is made even clearer and this helps in understanding. I tend to agree with a slow approach. Unfortunately what exist are mainly state reports about their helmet laws. A few national reports may be accessible. They are state laws. It would be like trying to write a wiki page ‘bike helmets in GB’, but Wales or Scotland or NI may have different histories, trying to lump them together may not be the best approach.
You say; Your conflict of interest may not be commercial but it is represented through your advocacy role with the CTC and your extremely obvious POV.
The CTC position is not anti helmet but pro choice. Most countries or states/provinces are either pro choice or some pro legislation for children. My position is strongly pro choice, like the CTC but I can take my own position. I do not see a conflict of interest in a person taking this position, at least less conflict of interest than being pro helmet or pro legislation. They would be advising either using a product that has some know risks or supporting removing freedom of choice, again with know public health potential disadvantages.
I do not really agree that having a pro choice point of view or writing reports on helmets or helmet laws constitute a ‘conflict of interest’, it primarily slows an interest in the topic and supporting civil liberties. Admittedly Wiki publishing information that conflicts with an author’s view may lead to disputes. It is part of the difficulty in dealing with the topic but all information should be considered. For Wiki to provide a NPOV it should be aware of all points of view. Colin at cycling ( talk) 09:51, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
I have already said - and probably more than once - that if someone wants to write an article about, say, bicycle helmets in NSW then the reports relevant to NSW might be applicable. Note: might and note that you almost certainly should not write it. - Sitush ( talk) 10:51, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
One part states; A report from the Australian Department of Transport in 1987 examined cycling accident victims and found that "of the unhelmeted cases involving severe head injury, over 40 percent would definitely have had an improved outcome if a substantial bicycle helmet had been worn". It also found that, while "children do have substantial protection from impacts to the head when wearing a bicycle helmet, it is likely that substantial head deformation occurs in a major impact due to the stiffness of the bicycle helmet liner in the Australian Standard bicycle helmet." It recommended changes to the standards, in particular softer foam, which were not implemented.[17]
I have expanded the details to include information allowing the reader to understand the claims better.
A report from the Australian Department of Transport in 1987 examined 171 cycling accident victims and reported 19 to be serious. Helmets used at the time were mainly hard shell heavier types that are no longer in common use for cycling. It estimated that of the unhelmeted cases involving severe head injury, over 40 percent would definitely have had an improved outcome if a substantial bicycle helmet had been worn, 8 cases from 19 serious. It also found that, while children do have substantial protection from impacts to the head when wearing a bicycle helmet, it is likely that substantial head deformation occurs in a major impact due to the stiffness of the bicycle helmet liner in the Australian Standard bicycle helmet. It recommended changes to the standards, in particular softer foam, which were not implemented.[17]
I think this explains the findings better, any suggestions to make it clearer? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.141.121.28 ( talk) 13:48, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
Cutting down seems a more promising approach. Any comments on this idea? Richard Keatinge ( talk) 15:53, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
So, User:Colin at cycling, you are suggesting that the surgeons and injury researchers involved in lobbying for mandatory helmets in the 1980s may have engaged in insider trading? If so, could you please make those suggestions somewhere else, not on WP, not even on these Talk pages. The BHRF web site carries material that impugns the integrity of researchers - see for example the reference to Hynd et al. on this page http://www.cyclehelmets.org/1047.html which describes their work with the words "Despite attempts to manipulate the results..." - they might be willing to publish your suspicions. Tim C ( talk) 05:13, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
The material reinstated by Kiwikiped is not acceptable. There are 2 Robinson references, yet no mention of the MUARC, NSW/RTA, SA DoRS, UWA or UNSW studies. As noted by Sitush, there is no consensus, the material should be (re-)removed. Linda.m.ward ( talk) 09:30, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
I included the following information on fines, with 3 citations, that was removed without sufficient reason being provided, please explain.
"Victoria issued more than 19,000 fines ($15 each) for not wearing helmets in the first 12 months of their helmet law. [2] In 2005 almost 10,000 cyclists in NSW were fined for not wearing a helmet but that number has reduced. [3] In 2013 fines are now $176 in Victoria and lower in other states. [4] Colin at cycling ( talk) 14:11, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
You may have questions, but having questions is not sufficient reason to undue posts. If you asked the questions first and did not obtain reasonable information then perhaps it would give grounds to undue a post.
The article states: "Mandatory helmet laws were first introduced in Victoria in July 1990, followed in January 1991 by laws for adult cyclists in New South Wales and all age-groups in Tasmania." The first piece of information related to Victoria and the info is on the web for anyone to check out. "Victoria issued more than 19,000 fines ($15 each) for not wearing helmets in the first 12 months of their helmet law. [5]
The second reference: "In 2005 almost 10,000 cyclists in NSW were fined for not wearing a helmet but that number has reduced. [6] can also be checked
The info on fines provides a useful comparison between when the law was first introduced and current levels.
If you can provide sound reasons why the information should not be included we can discuss these. No reasons have been provided so far. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Colin at cycling ( talk • contribs) 17:33, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
Sitush (talk) 10:59, 26 June 2013 (UTC wrote "I've reverted your latter change and the likely more problematic survey added by Colin, who has a considerable POV. Surveys are problematic and need discussions before addition, as per my previous comment in the section above. I'm now away for a couple of days, so that should provide some time for people to talk. - Sitush (talk) 10:59, 26 June 2013 (UTC)"
it stated "A survey in Victoria reported that eighteen percent of respondents did not know that legislation was being introduced. A lower awareness amongst adults was noted. [7]"
A survey in Victoria from 61% of respondents who already owned a helmet, reported 84% in favour of mandation. Eighteen percent of respondents did not know that legislation was being introduced. A lower awareness amongst adults was apparent. Thirteen percent reported they would either cycle less or not at all. AGB Bike helmet survey published May 1990. The articles states "Opposition was fragmented and ineffective; no major cycling groups opposed the law in public" It is good for the public to be made aware that a proportion of adults did not even know that the law was being introduced. Therefore it is understandable to a degree that opposition was fragmented. It raises the question about the public consultation process and if the public were given suitable information or the topic suitably discussed in the media. Again if good reasons can be provided why this information should not be included they can be discussed Colin at cycling ( talk) 18:23, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
With no good reasons provided why the information, ""A survey in Victoria reported that eighteen percent of respondents did not know that legislation was being introduced. A lower awareness amongst adults was noted. [8]" I intend to reinsert shortly.
Similar with no good reasons being provided for not including the following information, "Victoria issued more than 19,000 fines ($15 each) for not wearing helmets in the first 12 months of their helmet law. [9] In 2005 almost 10,000 cyclists in NSW were fined for not wearing a helmet but that number has reduced. [10] In 2013 fines are now $176 in Victoria and lower in other states. [11] Colin at cycling — Preceding unsigned comment added by Colin at cycling ( talk • contribs) 08:45, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
Sitush, I cannot assume that you act in good faith because you have shown bias in my view with your previous comments and replies. Prior to you joining the discussions a lot of material was being discussed and the contents were lengthy at more than 9000 words but included significant details. Quite a few people had worked on the contents. You admitted not knowing what was right or wrong but taking bold steps with your view and in your assumptions of good faith. You removed most of the content to arrive at a short version of a few aspects, not covering the issue properly, at currently 775 words.
The points I raised;
1 “ Victoria issued more than 19,000 fines ($15 each) for not wearing helmets in the first 12 months of their helmet law.” No one has disputed this information in the Talk section or in previous discussions.
2 In 2005 almost 10,000 cyclists in NSW were fined for not wearing a helmet but that number has reduced.[9] No one has disputed this information in the Talk section or in previous discussions.
3 In 2013 fines are now $176 in Victoria and lower in other states.[10] No one has disputed this information in the Talk section or in previous discussions. I explained; “The article states: "Mandatory helmet laws were first introduced in Victoria in July 1990, followed in January 1991 by laws for adult cyclists in New South Wales and all age-groups in Tasmania." The first piece of information related to Victoria and the info is on the web for anyone to check out. "Victoria issued more than 19,000 fines ($15 each) for not wearing helmets in the first 12 months of their helmet law.[4]” Data for some regions has been included in reports or published by the press. National data is generally not provided, so only a portion of the data is available. Wiki can only report data that has been published.
4 The other point I raised “A survey in Victoria reported that eighteen percent of respondents did not know that legislation was being introduced. A lower awareness amongst adults was noted. [12]” You asked to be discussed in the Talk pages, I posted information without reply. The survey I mentioned “Bicycle helmet study AGB Spectrum May 1990” had not previously been discussed. You assume that no agreement on this survey could be found when in fact it had not been discussed.
So, really you are off the mark, in your approach and judgment, together with the underlying bias. I suggest the 4 points go to an independent evaluation to consider if they should be included. Colin at cycling ( talk) 15:37, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
Some have mentioned the number of fines vs. the size of the population, a reasonable point surely. This seems harder to address in an NPOV way - is %age of the population or rate of issue more important? E.g. 10,000 fines might be a small or large proportion of the population, it's also - given that we all sleep - around one fine every 30 minutes. Quoting any of those is likely to be seen as biased by someone! As in just about the whole of this debate, what and how you count and what you deem important decides what results you produce. Are reliable cyclist-population counts available to pair with fine counts? Any consensus on what additional, if any, contextual information should accompanying fine numbers? Kiwikiped ( talk) 22:28, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
Basically Australia has states helmet laws, the levels of fines vary and are open to the police discretion if they give a ticket. Some of the number of fines have been detailed for some states and for a selected years. Australian data covering the whole country has not been reported as far as I know because they are state matters subject state laws. The article has only two main section 'Legal requirements' being one but then it provides no information about the enforcement aspect. Some data has been published. Williams RESEARCH NOTE 17/94 EVALUATION OF THE NSW INTRODUCTION OF COMPULSORY BICYCLE HELMET LEGISLATION Meredyth-Ann Williams Page 13 Table 2 provides data for 1991, 92, 93, fines were 5.8K, 15.2k, 14k respectively. For Victoria the most widely quoted figure has probably been the 19k. Wiki can provide an indication of the enforcement aspect and this was my intention. It is one of the aspects that can be considered a fact, x fines were issued. Accident data can change due to several factors. Wiki would be providing facts on this issue. My view is of course this would be worth including. Colin at cycling ( talk) 17:27, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
ps If I had been selecting data with the intention to focus on the least favourable data then the 1992 data for NSW would probably have been used but I mentioned more recent data indicating less than 10k fines, "In 2005 almost 10,000 cyclists in NSW were fined for not wearing a helmet but that number has reduced" In any case, I wanted just a brief mention and not heaps of details Colin at cycling ( talk) 17:53, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
Colin at cycling, I made a suggestion above as a way forward on this impasse. To address
Sitush's concerns any edit must avoid the possibility of invalid inference by including wording along the lines of "Information for other States and Territories is not readily available, and may be higher or lower than those quoted.". Furthermore any figures quoted should be the latest available, for example
Linda.m.ward has pointed out that there are more recent figures for NSW, these clearly must be used rather than older ones. Are you willing to propose wording meeting these criteria? Or make an argument the criteria are wrong? Let's wrap this up!
Kiwikiped (
talk) 19:37, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
Most comments indicates that some information on fines should be included and I suggest the following. "Fines for not wearing helmets vary from state to state and national data on the number of fines has not been published. One report detailed Victoria issued more than 19,000 fines ($15 each) for not wearing helmets in the first 12 months of their helmet law. [16] A newspaper reported that in 2005 almost 10,000 cyclists in NSW were fined for not wearing a helmet but that number reduced to 6537 in 2009. http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/cyclists-getting-an-easy-ride-20101208-18px7.html ref>'Cyclists 'getting an easy ride' SMH http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/cyclists-getting-an-easy-ride-20101208-18px7.html</ref> In 2013 fines are now $176 in Victoria and lower in other states. [17] Colin at cycling ( talk) 10:32, 9 July 2013 (UTC)