This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 |
I have taken Sitush's strong suggestion and at this diff I have greatly abbreviated the article, removing in particular almost all of the disputation but leaving (for the moment) the references. I must apologise to Tim; I said I would give plenty of opportunity to comment before I did any such thing, and now I've gone and done it without any significant input from anyone else at all. In the spirit of WP:BRD the discussion above, and no doubt further discussion to come, may perhaps be taken as plenty of opportunity to comment.
No doubt everyone will comment as they please, and I'm aware of many defects. I'd particularly appreciate your opinions on whether, as I hope, this very rough first cut is actually an improvement on the previous version. If we can restart work from here we may leave this article in relative peace and set about the much more difficult task of achieving good quality in Bicycle helmet, which does need to include a better summary of the state of the scientific debate. Richard Keatinge ( talk) 22:08, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
OK, I'll revert it now, and we can try again. Tim C ( talk) 06:53, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
The section headed Surveys of helmet use and cycling participation is pointless for the reasons stated by Marshall and White in 1994. Since we are not comparing like with like and since the outcomes of the various surveys are so vague in terms of conclusions, please can we consider either removing the entire section or replacing it merely with non-statistical summaries of the surveys mentioned. Rather than clearing the air, the stats there cloud it. - Sitush ( talk) 08:33, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
Agreed. It duplicates the material in section on changes without concurrent control groups. It also refers to a paper about New Zealand, and breaks Wiki rules about synthesis - Carr & Williams didn't infer cycle use from injury data. Given its current state, it seemed better to delete it. Dorre ( talk) 10:18, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
Richard, the Census on cycle commuting is essential to an article on cycling in Australia, but not to this article on Bicycle Helmets in Australia. You, and User:Dorre, have made the leap of faith that changes in cycle commuting in the Census data are due to helmet laws. Some of those changes may well be, but other factors almost certainly play a role, and further research needs to be done to estimate what proportion of the changes in cycle commuting in the Census data are likely to have been due to helmet laws. To present the Census data in THIS article without having done that further research, and having it vetted by scientific peers and published in a reputable journal, is potentially misleading because it implies that all, or a large part of the changes in cycle commuting in the 1990s were due to helmet laws, and that may not be the case.
Regarding control groups, of course I am familiar with the concept in the context of both experimental (eg RCTs) and observational studies (eg cohort and case-control studies). However those sections contained descriptions of Census data and helmet wearing surveys, and I found the the concept of "control groups" (or lack thereof) with respect to a census or a survey rather peculiar. Tim C ( talk) 09:24, 13 June 2013 (UTC~)
I have used this graph or one very similar as a nice simple way to illustrate the concept of control groups to first-year students. None of them had any trouble understanding the point. I'll take Sitush's opinion and leave the issue of this particular graph for the moment. Richard Keatinge ( talk) 21:28, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
I really, really do not have any stake in this argument and I'm really unsure who is right and who is wrong. Indeed, both "sides" may be equally right or wrong. What I do know is that edits to this article are by and large coming from people who have a pre-set agenda either in favour of mandatory helmet use or opposed to it. That is not the best environment for achieving a neutral article. Or, rather, it is not the best if people keep pushing A or B without really discussing things first. Yes, there has been a lot of discussion but much of it is going round in circles and it has become apparent that there is an element of obtuseness from certain contributors.
I've reverted to my last edit. It is almost certainly the wrong version but it is more certainly less wrong than what followed because that came from a contributor who has indeed been obtuse. If needs must, we will have to take this to a higher level. RfCs are pointless, in my opinion but something in the dispute resolution process looks likely unless we can begin to define exactly what it is that this article is supposed to be focussed on. Thoughts? - Sitush ( talk) 23:45, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
................................................................................. problem with line space................................................................................. -- There has been evidence for and against helmets and any article may need to reflect both views. Other Wiki topics may not have this degree of difficulty. In some ways you need to know right from wrong to provide a neutral article. Provided each view is supported by suitable evidence that is probably the best approach. Reverting to a previous version without considering each change and its merits does not encourage me to help write a worthy article. As noted I am contributing to one topic at the minute and many of the protocols may take some time to digest. Time of course is limited. Colin at cycling ( talk) 11:58, 14 June 2013 (UTC) http://www.bmj.com/content/346/bmj.f3817 worth a read Colin at cycling ( talk) 12:35, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
I removed a couple of graphs, which had also received a bit of flak in the recent ANI report. They are, in my opinion, confusing rather than helpful. Furthermore, they are the work of one study (which makes them undue weight) and I remain concerned that we do not have the correct permissions to reproduce them here. - Sitush ( talk) 11:03, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
I agree that the first graph is confusing, but the second one is fairly simple - reporting percentages cycling to work in states with and without helmet laws at the 1991 census. There is no problem with permissions to reproduce them here and I disagree that census data can be interpreted as the results of a "study". It is simply a report of the percentage of the workforce who cycled there. In the spirit of compromise, I'll remove the first graph that could be confusing, but the second one certainly is not. I believe is provides an extremely relevant picture of the effect of helmet laws on the entire country, so should not be removed. Dorre ( talk) 11:12, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
The reference and authority for the graphs in question, created by User:Dorre, is given as a page on the Bicycle Helmets Research Foundation (BHRF) web site. Other editors need to be aware that User:Richard Keatinge is one of two listed Directors of the BHRF (see http://www.companieslist.co.uk/04864151-the-bicycle-helmet-research-foundation ) and is listed as being on its Editorial Board. Previous WP discussion of the BHRF, including discussion of these graphs in question here, can be found at Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_146#Bicycle_Helmet_Research_Foundation. Tim C ( talk) 21:59, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
As for a picture being worth a thousand words, well, I'm not great at creating graphs but one thing I had drummed into me was that the choice of style can affect the viewer's perception of the data. So, which thousand words? - Sitush ( talk) 05:00, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
In reverting User:Colin at cycling's recent re-insertion of a graph, User:Sitush has described User:Colin at cycling's re-insertion as an edit 'in good faith'. Is this assessment based on the assumption that User:Colin at cycling does not have any undeclared interest/s with respect to
Colin Clarke does not work for, consult to, own shares in or receive funding from any company or organisation that would benefit from this article as far as I know. People can be opposed to helmet laws because of a range of values and may not believe that helmets are a useful safety product or a reliable product. From what I can see the graph provided useful information and is easy to follow. I do not agree with removing it. Issues of concern about bicycle helmets are being avoided in trying to provide a simple approach. The Wiki process, many changes in one day, poor reasons given for deleting material and people deleting material that questions the benefits of imposing helmet legislation, it adds up to quite a poor process without real agreement. Colin at cycling ( talk) 15:53, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
Despited numerous previous requests to declare any interest, specifically with respect to Colin F Clarke (the author of many, many references that have been added by User:Colin at cycling), User:Colin at cycling has yet again failed to provide a satisfactory response.
Re the (Clarke) graph, if any of my students were to produce such a graph, they would cop a big fat fail for it. Partly because it does not state which year/s 'post-law' refers to, presumably 1991. In which case the graph is grossly misleading (hence ***FAIL***) because it ignores the fact that Finch et al. noted that one site, which was part of a popular recreation area, and defined bike track, HAD RAIN DURING ALL THE 1991 OBSERVATIONS (and very few cyclist were observed). Linda.m.ward ( talk) 07:06, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
They had 64 sites and details of the weather was mentioned in the report where the graph is published. http://www.ta.org.br/site/Banco/7manuais/colin_clarke_cycle_helmet.pdf
Weekend weather conditions suggest 1992 had the driest survey periods, followed by 1990 and 1991. The Velo link provided to the report has been deleted by the reverting process.
Colin at cycling ( talk) 12:59, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
Finch et al. found that after taking the weather conditions and riding patterns into account, there was no reduction in adult cycling as a result of the helmet law. This finding is consistent with adults cyclist counts in both NSW and SA.
The SA study also found that there was no reduction in overall cycling, and that a reduction in cycling to school, which comprised only 20% of cycling in that age group prior to the law, was accompanied by a equivalent-sized increase in cycling to/around other venues after the helmet law.
Cyclist non-head hospital admission data in Vic, NSW and SA also indicate that there was no (overall) reduction in cycling as a result of the helmet law. (This is consistent with an observatoin by Povey et al. that there was no evidence of any reduction in cycling as a result of the helmet law in NZ.)
One of the first things taught in health research courses is not to attach too much weight to just one study. Numerous data sources from multiple (Australian) jurisdictions all point to (little or) no reduction in (overall) cycling.
Finch et al. anlaysed various factors that could have affected cyclist counts, the Clarke graph is a crudely simplistic 'analysis' that ignores critical factors such as the weather. It gives a message that is inconsistent the the original (actual) analysis by Finch et al., and wildly inconsistent with numerous data sources reported in other Vic, NSW and SA studies.
Linda.m.ward ( talk) 11:49, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
Linda says “Finch et al. found that after taking the weather conditions and riding patterns into account, there was no reduction in adult cycling as a result of the helmet law. This finding is consistent with adults cyclist counts in both NSW and SA”. http://www.cycle-helmets.com/finch-melbourne.pdf page 35, states “ 5.6.4 Numbers of Bicyclists Observed During Each of the MUARC Surveys The number of bicyclists observed in the 64 sites in common to each of the MUARC surveys is shown in figure 28. In the total group of bicyclists, the number of bicyclists fell by 36% from 3121 in 1990 to 2011 in 1991.
http://www.cycle-helmets.com/robinson-head-injuries.pdf
page 466 number of cyclists in Victoria surveys, Table 4, 1990, 91 and 92 figures, adults 1567, 1106, 1484.
The 1992 survey had the best weather plus a cycle rally for one site.
Even so the figure was still lower than 1990.
Clearly Linda you are incorrect.
For NSW it is more complicated,
The details of adult cyclists counted at road sites are shown below
1990 1991 1992 1993 Sydney 2730 3332 2796 2591 Rural 2650 2402 1933* 1660 Totals 5380 5734 4729 4251
The 1990 survey was conducted in spring, with poor Sydney weather conditions. Walker reported: “As it turns out, the first survey was conducted in overcast conditions in Sydney and, in some areas, was interrupted by rain whereas the second survey was conducted in sunny conditions” 6. Adult rural road cycling reduced by 37%, according to a simple estimate (1660/2650 = 0.63). From 1991 to 1993, a drop of 22% occurred in Sydney. In 1991, the helmet law already applied to adults.
Again Linda you are incorrect.
The data for SA seems to be based on Adelaide and only 2 surveys, hardly reliable. In any case their census data shows a 35% reduction from 1991 to 1996. http://www.cyclehelmets.org/1194.html Cycling to work in South Australia 1976 1981 1986 1991 1996 2001 2006 2011 2.04% 2.45% 2.27% 1.95% 1.27% 1.17% 1.43% 1.25% Census data
Linda says
“that there was no evidence of any reduction in cycling as a result of the helmet law in NZ.”
http://www.cycle-helmets.com/zealand_helmets.html
51% reduction.
Linda your view is totally at odds with much of the evidence. Please do not mislead others with these invalid statements. Sorry to have to point to so many mistakes and I hope you can see that you are misguided. Monash reports may have misled you with some of their publications.
The Velo paper provides details about the weather in Vic for the 1990, 91 and 92 and some extra reference to the weather could be made for a Wiki graph. Colin at cycling ( talk) 14:12, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
While discussing graphs, I notice that the remaining graph in the article, contributed by User:Dorre to WikiMedia Commons - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:WA_HI_HelmetLaws.png - is described as:
Percentage of road users in Western Australia with head injury in relation to the timing of bicycle helmet laws. Drawn from data provided by Delia Hendrie and Bruce Robinson and analysed as part of: Hendrie, D., M. Legge, D. Rosman, and C. Kirov. 1999. An economic evaluation of the mandatory bicycle helmet legislation in Western Australia, Road Accident Prevention Unit.
The graph doesn't appear in the Hendrie et al. paper. It is a synthesis of data supplied to User:Dorre by Di Rosman, one of the authors of the Hendrie et al. report, and by Bruce Robinson. As such, I don't think it is eligible for inclusion in a WP article under WP guidelines on synthesis and original research. Tim C ( talk) 00:19, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
The graph shows the 36% drop that is for the basic data, Finch confirms this aspect. The 10% extra wearing helmets comes from the basic survey data. The main points are not really in dispute. The 42% "where 42% wore helmets before the law" comes from ref 7 in the paper, "weighted average wearing rate", so the reports does in fact refer to a published weighted average. In this regard Tim assumed the 42% had been calculated by the author when in fact it had not. The Velo paper reports the basic numbers, weather is mentioned, a weighted average for Melbourne pre law and weekday information. All this information gives a fairly good picture to inform readers. If other people wish to use other information to provide better graphs that is OK. Making invalid assumptions and others thinking the are valid and ADDING UNSUITABLE COMMENTS does not help. Colin at cycling ( talk) 20:00, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
Thanks Tim for providing quite a detailed reply. More or less we seem to agree about the figures I think.
It report “A reported 36% drop in number of cyclists (Finch, Heiman, Nelger) from 3121 to 2011 was from surveys in Melbourne, where 42% wore helmets before the law.”
The 42% figure is from another source. Victorian Bicycling Strategy; Vic Roads, Australia 1991, it provided a weighted average wearing rate for Melbourne. The 42% figure would have come from Vic Roads annual surveys.
The Monash surveys were a 64 subset of 105 survey sites. Providing the 42% figure would probably have been more accurate than the 32% figure, at least that’s my understanding and judgement. If anyone had any questions contact details were provided.
With hindsight a clear ref to where the 42% figure came from may have been better.
In both cases 42% or 32% wearing helmets pre law, 58% or 68% not wearing, the drop of 36% is more than half. So it could be reported that the helmet law discouraged about 50% of pre law non -helmeted cyclists.
The Clarke graph shows the basic data for 1990 -1991 and is based on Finch etc. It appears to be accurate.
If you revise your comment to reflect that the 42% figure was not a spelling typo that may be better.
The data for 1992 is subject to a large cycle rally and dryer weather conditions. Wiki cannot provide original research and the Clarke graph has not been subject to peer review criticism. If Tim or Linda had quoted peer review criticism of the graph, that may have been suitable grounds not to include it. Has it stands it is really just people pushing their own point of view about Wiki content, excluding what they think, rather then on merit or principle. The graph was displayed for a number of weeks and is useful to show the changes in both number cycling, wearing rates and it clearly shows that the main effect of legislation was to discourage cycling. This was perhaps the clearest effect from helmet legislation in Australia.
I suggest that the graph issue go to independent consideration for inclusion or not. Please advise who to contact to proceed. Colin at cycling ( talk) 15:50, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
As for Colin's graph, well, it seems more and more likely that he may be working outside his capabilities when it comes to stats etc. That doesn't stop him from commenting here, of course, but it makes me wonder whether anything based on his studies should appear in the article without a really solid consensus. And that consensus seems unlikely at present. Colin, you could escalate the graph issue to WP:DRN or institute a RfC but I'd advise you to simplify any comments that you make there: people's eyes glaze over when they see the sort of thing that has been going on at this talk page and the outcome will not be good in a RfC or at DRN if similar stuff happens there. - Sitush ( talk) 09:42, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
I am not sure what to suggest for the best. For "Cycling levels before and after the introduction of mandatory helmet laws[edit]" Curnow provides a reference to changes in cycling activity across Australia in Table 1, provides one source that has been peer reviewed. It avoids too much discussion. http://www.cyclehelmets.org/papers/p787.pdf
Discouragement,, Though it was known that compulsion to wear a helmet could discourage cycling [3], no national monitoring for it was done, but in most jurisdictions (percentages of total population shown in Table 1, second column) surveys made before and after the helmet laws, mainly to measure compliance with them, found declines in cycling/numbers of cyclists. The measured declines are shown in Table 1 (reproduced from Curnow [74] with kind permission of Health Promotion Journal of Australia), as follows. Table 1. Declines in cycling, Australia
State/territory % Class of cyclist Decline pre-to post-law'
If permission could be obtained for including Table 1, this could be the main data provided and perhaps a short description based on Curnow's report.
This would effectively cuts out most of the present discussions,, 'A 1993 Victorian study by Finch et al',, 'Studies conducted for the NSW Roads and Traffic Authority',, 'The (1995) report by Williams noted',, 'A 1995 SA study by Marshall and White found that',, 'Automatic counters installed on two key cyclist bridges over the Swan river',,
A short summary could be included that helmet wearing rates pre legislation ranged from about 10% to 47% depending on the type of cyclist and location, e.g. a recreational teenager cyclist in country Victoria compared to adults commuting in Melbourne (ref Vic Bike Strategy 1991).
Robinson noted that for children, the decrease in numbers of cyclists counted in New South Wales and Victoria)was greater than the increase in numbers wearing helmets, suggesting that the main effect of the law was to discourage cycling rather than persuade cyclists to wear helmets.[12]
This could effectively sum up the changes in cycling levels for Australia and avoid graphs. As an optional extra, including the Clarke graph or similar with a suitable caveat, if required, would make it clearer to the reader but this aspect could be considered as an extra. Colin at cycling ( talk) 15:00, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
In an area full of strong opinions and COI affecting virtually everyone who rides a bike (and indeed governments with a desire to justify laws to win elections), the best hope of achieving a consensus is to report facts, not opinions. For every published argument in favour, another one can be added against, leading to an ever-increasing indigestible mass of words. But there is no dispute about the data, only its interpretation. Instead of discussing how to present relevant facts (which I personally find hard to interpret without graphs), much time has been wasted on attacking sources of factual information (e.g. the BHRF, of which I serve on the editorial board) or individual editors, many of whom, like myself, ride bikes and so could be considered to have major COI. While these disputes have continued, as I have noted on the talk page, the current article contains factual errors. It's time to move beyond the strong, personal opinions and try and achieve a consensus on what facts should be presented. Dorre ( talk) 22:48, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
My view is that the scope of the article should be left as it now is - it covers all the aspects of bicycle helmets in Australia that are unique to Australia. It is inappropriate to cover bicycle helmet effectiveness in this article, because that it not unique to Australia, and it makes no sense to cover just Australian studies of helmet effectiveness, divorced from the context of similar overseas studies. The same argument applies to surveys and studies of the effects of mandatory bicycle helmet laws - Australia may have been the first country to introduce such laws, but that was two decades ago, and now it is far from unique in having mandatory helmet laws, and there is a lot of evidence on the effects of helmet laws on both cycling participation (how many people ride bikes) and on injury rates in cyclists from jurisdictions other than Australia, including NZ, Canada, Spain, the US and Sweden. Thus it makes little sense to examine the effects of just the Australian helmet laws in isolation. My feeling is that the effectiveness of bicycle helmets and related topics (including risk compensation theories) should be covered in the main Bicycle helmets article (they are already), and that promotion of helmet wearing and mandatory helmet laws, and their effects, should have its own article, but one which encompasses all jurisdictions and countries (perhaps with country-specific sections if required). And all these helmet articles should be part of a broader set of article on bicycle safety, helmets being only one aspect of cycling safety. Tim C ( talk) 23:29, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
TimC's observation that "the material on the BHRF is relentlessly anti-helmet and anti-helmet promotion/laws" is not a "distortion", it is entirely consistent with the views expressed by a number of editors in response to the BHFR RfC. Some examples:
During the RfC,I noted a number of factual errors with respect to material on the BHRF site. That was about 3 months ago, and at least 4 BHRF editiorial board members would have seen those comments. I don't think any of those corrections have been made (1 correction was to remove the reference to an anti-helmet paper that was retracted more than a year ago). Refusal to accept facts is 'not conducive' to consensus. Linda.m.ward ( talk) 07:47, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
With more work the article may become suitable. Colin at cycling ( talk) 08:37, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
You are correct. I mean a balanced article that reflects the facts from a neutral point of view. I will see if I can suggest some changes to help. Colin at cycling ( talk) 17:09, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
It's good to come back to this page and see it vastly shrunk and more readable.
The edits have resulted in a few rough edges, e.g.: "The 1978 inquiry" - what inquiry? A reference listed twice (15, 18). A rather strange summary on a list of references from both sides of the debate "These consistently show..." - if they were consistent with each other there wouldn't be a debate! Some of the dates don't seem right/out-of-order. Other odds'n'ends. So I'm going to try and clean these up. It will probably look like a lot more than it is as some bits seem out-of-order so I'll move them around, but the length shouldn't change appreciably. Regarding the 1978 inquiry and its report I'll just insert [full citation needed] - there appears to be no details of what the inquiry was or its report, unless I've missed them... Indeed the whole para contains one reference marked as unreliable, maybe it should just go? Kiwikiped ( talk) 21:45, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
Reading the page there was "History" but no "Now" so I've added a very short section "Two Decades On" (rather than "Today" as it dates better!). In that I have simply referenced one recent paper from each side of the debate and one of the groups formed in opposition to follow up on the comment in the history section about the opposition being initially fragmented. The papers were not chosen as they stand out (and I do not know the authors of either personally), the group was picked based on its recent formation as an Australia-wide collaboration and hence indicative of the recent increase in activity. If people wish to substitute any one of these for one other, without analysis/argument/discussion/original research etc. then that should be OK. Kiwikiped ( talk) 10:07, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
I've no interest in this subject matter and have read only a very few of the sources, so your general amplifications and your corrections to long-standing errors etc were welcome. Surely, there must be a reliable source that is completely independent of the various governmental bodies and the various sides in this argument? Even a newspaper report would be better than taking our finger out of this dyke? Just about every regular contributor to this talk page seems to have an emotional (and frequently intellectual) investment and I'd rather we tried to avoid any encouragement of it. - Sitush ( talk) 12:28, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
I don't know, and please correct me if I am wrong, of any meta-analysis relating to the current state in Australia (well enough one that would be viewed as impartial by both POVs); or a newspaper article doing the same. When I first posted I invited others to substitute one-for-one (yes, no taking the finger out of the dyke!) other suitable references, I've no attachment to the two I selected - any reputable recent paper representative of one of the opposing conclusions would suffice as an example (and best not authored by any of the editors here if possible - that is a "cat meet pigeon" invitation). My second offering was to remove the references to particular papers and simply state that Australian Universities were publishing research coming to opposing conclusions. While I do think supporting references are better, better to report the current state of play than to not report it because people are fighting over the papers to reference.
As I see it now one reference has received no comments against it and the other an insubstantial "original research" comment from the opposing POV. Give it a bit more time for discussion and then add one of the versions in? I think the article would be better with the first, but what is the consensus? Kiwikiped ( talk) 20:38, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
That there are a growing number of anti-law sites/blogs/groups/individuals/whatever is clear, and some have garnered a certain amount of attention (e.g. The Freedom Cyclist probably due to Court cases). Whether any of this is significant or will result in pro-law groups emerging to counter them who knows? And its not for wikipedia to speculate either!
I understand that the earlier statement is factual, so like you I'd leave it. Given it is there it seemed right to bring it up-to-date - while not introducing any opinion either way as to the merits of these groups! The section can of course omit any reference to organisation among the opposition and just make reference to the ongoing debate apparent through work of the various universities. Is there a consensus that it should not be included? Or that some other group should be used as an example?
I picked de Jong as an example of a published research by an Australian academic which comes to one particular conclusion. Whether folk who favour research which comes to the opposing conclusion find fault with this work is both unsurprising and not relevant in this context. I strongly suspect the folk of the opposing POV to you find fault with the CARRS-Q paper which was selected as an example of a recent Australian paper supportive of legislation - but again that is not relevant in this context.
The question for you is there any recent paper by an Australian academic which is unsupportive of legislation that you would be happy for Wikipedia to reference? If you can present an alternative paper, or an argument why no such paper can be referenced, then please do so. I've no axe to grind as to the selection of de Jong or CARRS-Q, they were just picked as examples of the opposing conclusions coming from different Australian academics, and I said from the start appropriate substitutions can be made. Indeed, though I think it less informative, I offered a second version of the text which included *no* references, just reported the fact that today there are Australian academics producing papers coming to opposing conclusions. Given your passion for your POV I would understand your position if you expressed a wish that these academics would "see the light", but I wouldn't accept your position if you argue that the very existence of their work should be suppressed - any more than I would accept someone from the opposing POV arguing that the work of academics supportive of your POV should be suppressed! Kiwikiped ( talk) 21:53, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
BRD Process Wrapup
Sitush initiated a BRD process for this small addition to the article to bring it up to the present day. No specific reason was given. Regular contributors: ( Linda.m.ward, Dorre, Tim C and Richard Keatinge (Note: the latter's comments appear in the following thread - this thread started off as one as Sitush reverted two different edits at the same time); representative of both major POVs editing the article have contributed to the discussion. Over a week has transpired since the discussion started and no additions have been made for 5 days.
Concerns were expressed over one of the two references selected. These appear to be have sprung from a genuine misunderstanding of the purpose of the references, which is simply to be examples of recent work by Australian academics which have come to opposing conclusions. From the start it was made clear that alternative papers could be suggested, no such suggestions have been made. Also no objections to including references have been made, though an alternative wording along those lines was presented by me early on it found no supporters.
BRD requires us to move the process along. Based on the above the edit is being reinstated in its original form. Should folk feel that other references should be used, or other changes be made to the wording, it is strongly encouraged that such changes be posited in the Talk section first and consensus achieved. Kiwikiped ( talk) 19:29, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 |
I have taken Sitush's strong suggestion and at this diff I have greatly abbreviated the article, removing in particular almost all of the disputation but leaving (for the moment) the references. I must apologise to Tim; I said I would give plenty of opportunity to comment before I did any such thing, and now I've gone and done it without any significant input from anyone else at all. In the spirit of WP:BRD the discussion above, and no doubt further discussion to come, may perhaps be taken as plenty of opportunity to comment.
No doubt everyone will comment as they please, and I'm aware of many defects. I'd particularly appreciate your opinions on whether, as I hope, this very rough first cut is actually an improvement on the previous version. If we can restart work from here we may leave this article in relative peace and set about the much more difficult task of achieving good quality in Bicycle helmet, which does need to include a better summary of the state of the scientific debate. Richard Keatinge ( talk) 22:08, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
OK, I'll revert it now, and we can try again. Tim C ( talk) 06:53, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
The section headed Surveys of helmet use and cycling participation is pointless for the reasons stated by Marshall and White in 1994. Since we are not comparing like with like and since the outcomes of the various surveys are so vague in terms of conclusions, please can we consider either removing the entire section or replacing it merely with non-statistical summaries of the surveys mentioned. Rather than clearing the air, the stats there cloud it. - Sitush ( talk) 08:33, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
Agreed. It duplicates the material in section on changes without concurrent control groups. It also refers to a paper about New Zealand, and breaks Wiki rules about synthesis - Carr & Williams didn't infer cycle use from injury data. Given its current state, it seemed better to delete it. Dorre ( talk) 10:18, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
Richard, the Census on cycle commuting is essential to an article on cycling in Australia, but not to this article on Bicycle Helmets in Australia. You, and User:Dorre, have made the leap of faith that changes in cycle commuting in the Census data are due to helmet laws. Some of those changes may well be, but other factors almost certainly play a role, and further research needs to be done to estimate what proportion of the changes in cycle commuting in the Census data are likely to have been due to helmet laws. To present the Census data in THIS article without having done that further research, and having it vetted by scientific peers and published in a reputable journal, is potentially misleading because it implies that all, or a large part of the changes in cycle commuting in the 1990s were due to helmet laws, and that may not be the case.
Regarding control groups, of course I am familiar with the concept in the context of both experimental (eg RCTs) and observational studies (eg cohort and case-control studies). However those sections contained descriptions of Census data and helmet wearing surveys, and I found the the concept of "control groups" (or lack thereof) with respect to a census or a survey rather peculiar. Tim C ( talk) 09:24, 13 June 2013 (UTC~)
I have used this graph or one very similar as a nice simple way to illustrate the concept of control groups to first-year students. None of them had any trouble understanding the point. I'll take Sitush's opinion and leave the issue of this particular graph for the moment. Richard Keatinge ( talk) 21:28, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
I really, really do not have any stake in this argument and I'm really unsure who is right and who is wrong. Indeed, both "sides" may be equally right or wrong. What I do know is that edits to this article are by and large coming from people who have a pre-set agenda either in favour of mandatory helmet use or opposed to it. That is not the best environment for achieving a neutral article. Or, rather, it is not the best if people keep pushing A or B without really discussing things first. Yes, there has been a lot of discussion but much of it is going round in circles and it has become apparent that there is an element of obtuseness from certain contributors.
I've reverted to my last edit. It is almost certainly the wrong version but it is more certainly less wrong than what followed because that came from a contributor who has indeed been obtuse. If needs must, we will have to take this to a higher level. RfCs are pointless, in my opinion but something in the dispute resolution process looks likely unless we can begin to define exactly what it is that this article is supposed to be focussed on. Thoughts? - Sitush ( talk) 23:45, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
................................................................................. problem with line space................................................................................. -- There has been evidence for and against helmets and any article may need to reflect both views. Other Wiki topics may not have this degree of difficulty. In some ways you need to know right from wrong to provide a neutral article. Provided each view is supported by suitable evidence that is probably the best approach. Reverting to a previous version without considering each change and its merits does not encourage me to help write a worthy article. As noted I am contributing to one topic at the minute and many of the protocols may take some time to digest. Time of course is limited. Colin at cycling ( talk) 11:58, 14 June 2013 (UTC) http://www.bmj.com/content/346/bmj.f3817 worth a read Colin at cycling ( talk) 12:35, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
I removed a couple of graphs, which had also received a bit of flak in the recent ANI report. They are, in my opinion, confusing rather than helpful. Furthermore, they are the work of one study (which makes them undue weight) and I remain concerned that we do not have the correct permissions to reproduce them here. - Sitush ( talk) 11:03, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
I agree that the first graph is confusing, but the second one is fairly simple - reporting percentages cycling to work in states with and without helmet laws at the 1991 census. There is no problem with permissions to reproduce them here and I disagree that census data can be interpreted as the results of a "study". It is simply a report of the percentage of the workforce who cycled there. In the spirit of compromise, I'll remove the first graph that could be confusing, but the second one certainly is not. I believe is provides an extremely relevant picture of the effect of helmet laws on the entire country, so should not be removed. Dorre ( talk) 11:12, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
The reference and authority for the graphs in question, created by User:Dorre, is given as a page on the Bicycle Helmets Research Foundation (BHRF) web site. Other editors need to be aware that User:Richard Keatinge is one of two listed Directors of the BHRF (see http://www.companieslist.co.uk/04864151-the-bicycle-helmet-research-foundation ) and is listed as being on its Editorial Board. Previous WP discussion of the BHRF, including discussion of these graphs in question here, can be found at Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_146#Bicycle_Helmet_Research_Foundation. Tim C ( talk) 21:59, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
As for a picture being worth a thousand words, well, I'm not great at creating graphs but one thing I had drummed into me was that the choice of style can affect the viewer's perception of the data. So, which thousand words? - Sitush ( talk) 05:00, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
In reverting User:Colin at cycling's recent re-insertion of a graph, User:Sitush has described User:Colin at cycling's re-insertion as an edit 'in good faith'. Is this assessment based on the assumption that User:Colin at cycling does not have any undeclared interest/s with respect to
Colin Clarke does not work for, consult to, own shares in or receive funding from any company or organisation that would benefit from this article as far as I know. People can be opposed to helmet laws because of a range of values and may not believe that helmets are a useful safety product or a reliable product. From what I can see the graph provided useful information and is easy to follow. I do not agree with removing it. Issues of concern about bicycle helmets are being avoided in trying to provide a simple approach. The Wiki process, many changes in one day, poor reasons given for deleting material and people deleting material that questions the benefits of imposing helmet legislation, it adds up to quite a poor process without real agreement. Colin at cycling ( talk) 15:53, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
Despited numerous previous requests to declare any interest, specifically with respect to Colin F Clarke (the author of many, many references that have been added by User:Colin at cycling), User:Colin at cycling has yet again failed to provide a satisfactory response.
Re the (Clarke) graph, if any of my students were to produce such a graph, they would cop a big fat fail for it. Partly because it does not state which year/s 'post-law' refers to, presumably 1991. In which case the graph is grossly misleading (hence ***FAIL***) because it ignores the fact that Finch et al. noted that one site, which was part of a popular recreation area, and defined bike track, HAD RAIN DURING ALL THE 1991 OBSERVATIONS (and very few cyclist were observed). Linda.m.ward ( talk) 07:06, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
They had 64 sites and details of the weather was mentioned in the report where the graph is published. http://www.ta.org.br/site/Banco/7manuais/colin_clarke_cycle_helmet.pdf
Weekend weather conditions suggest 1992 had the driest survey periods, followed by 1990 and 1991. The Velo link provided to the report has been deleted by the reverting process.
Colin at cycling ( talk) 12:59, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
Finch et al. found that after taking the weather conditions and riding patterns into account, there was no reduction in adult cycling as a result of the helmet law. This finding is consistent with adults cyclist counts in both NSW and SA.
The SA study also found that there was no reduction in overall cycling, and that a reduction in cycling to school, which comprised only 20% of cycling in that age group prior to the law, was accompanied by a equivalent-sized increase in cycling to/around other venues after the helmet law.
Cyclist non-head hospital admission data in Vic, NSW and SA also indicate that there was no (overall) reduction in cycling as a result of the helmet law. (This is consistent with an observatoin by Povey et al. that there was no evidence of any reduction in cycling as a result of the helmet law in NZ.)
One of the first things taught in health research courses is not to attach too much weight to just one study. Numerous data sources from multiple (Australian) jurisdictions all point to (little or) no reduction in (overall) cycling.
Finch et al. anlaysed various factors that could have affected cyclist counts, the Clarke graph is a crudely simplistic 'analysis' that ignores critical factors such as the weather. It gives a message that is inconsistent the the original (actual) analysis by Finch et al., and wildly inconsistent with numerous data sources reported in other Vic, NSW and SA studies.
Linda.m.ward ( talk) 11:49, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
Linda says “Finch et al. found that after taking the weather conditions and riding patterns into account, there was no reduction in adult cycling as a result of the helmet law. This finding is consistent with adults cyclist counts in both NSW and SA”. http://www.cycle-helmets.com/finch-melbourne.pdf page 35, states “ 5.6.4 Numbers of Bicyclists Observed During Each of the MUARC Surveys The number of bicyclists observed in the 64 sites in common to each of the MUARC surveys is shown in figure 28. In the total group of bicyclists, the number of bicyclists fell by 36% from 3121 in 1990 to 2011 in 1991.
http://www.cycle-helmets.com/robinson-head-injuries.pdf
page 466 number of cyclists in Victoria surveys, Table 4, 1990, 91 and 92 figures, adults 1567, 1106, 1484.
The 1992 survey had the best weather plus a cycle rally for one site.
Even so the figure was still lower than 1990.
Clearly Linda you are incorrect.
For NSW it is more complicated,
The details of adult cyclists counted at road sites are shown below
1990 1991 1992 1993 Sydney 2730 3332 2796 2591 Rural 2650 2402 1933* 1660 Totals 5380 5734 4729 4251
The 1990 survey was conducted in spring, with poor Sydney weather conditions. Walker reported: “As it turns out, the first survey was conducted in overcast conditions in Sydney and, in some areas, was interrupted by rain whereas the second survey was conducted in sunny conditions” 6. Adult rural road cycling reduced by 37%, according to a simple estimate (1660/2650 = 0.63). From 1991 to 1993, a drop of 22% occurred in Sydney. In 1991, the helmet law already applied to adults.
Again Linda you are incorrect.
The data for SA seems to be based on Adelaide and only 2 surveys, hardly reliable. In any case their census data shows a 35% reduction from 1991 to 1996. http://www.cyclehelmets.org/1194.html Cycling to work in South Australia 1976 1981 1986 1991 1996 2001 2006 2011 2.04% 2.45% 2.27% 1.95% 1.27% 1.17% 1.43% 1.25% Census data
Linda says
“that there was no evidence of any reduction in cycling as a result of the helmet law in NZ.”
http://www.cycle-helmets.com/zealand_helmets.html
51% reduction.
Linda your view is totally at odds with much of the evidence. Please do not mislead others with these invalid statements. Sorry to have to point to so many mistakes and I hope you can see that you are misguided. Monash reports may have misled you with some of their publications.
The Velo paper provides details about the weather in Vic for the 1990, 91 and 92 and some extra reference to the weather could be made for a Wiki graph. Colin at cycling ( talk) 14:12, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
While discussing graphs, I notice that the remaining graph in the article, contributed by User:Dorre to WikiMedia Commons - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:WA_HI_HelmetLaws.png - is described as:
Percentage of road users in Western Australia with head injury in relation to the timing of bicycle helmet laws. Drawn from data provided by Delia Hendrie and Bruce Robinson and analysed as part of: Hendrie, D., M. Legge, D. Rosman, and C. Kirov. 1999. An economic evaluation of the mandatory bicycle helmet legislation in Western Australia, Road Accident Prevention Unit.
The graph doesn't appear in the Hendrie et al. paper. It is a synthesis of data supplied to User:Dorre by Di Rosman, one of the authors of the Hendrie et al. report, and by Bruce Robinson. As such, I don't think it is eligible for inclusion in a WP article under WP guidelines on synthesis and original research. Tim C ( talk) 00:19, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
The graph shows the 36% drop that is for the basic data, Finch confirms this aspect. The 10% extra wearing helmets comes from the basic survey data. The main points are not really in dispute. The 42% "where 42% wore helmets before the law" comes from ref 7 in the paper, "weighted average wearing rate", so the reports does in fact refer to a published weighted average. In this regard Tim assumed the 42% had been calculated by the author when in fact it had not. The Velo paper reports the basic numbers, weather is mentioned, a weighted average for Melbourne pre law and weekday information. All this information gives a fairly good picture to inform readers. If other people wish to use other information to provide better graphs that is OK. Making invalid assumptions and others thinking the are valid and ADDING UNSUITABLE COMMENTS does not help. Colin at cycling ( talk) 20:00, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
Thanks Tim for providing quite a detailed reply. More or less we seem to agree about the figures I think.
It report “A reported 36% drop in number of cyclists (Finch, Heiman, Nelger) from 3121 to 2011 was from surveys in Melbourne, where 42% wore helmets before the law.”
The 42% figure is from another source. Victorian Bicycling Strategy; Vic Roads, Australia 1991, it provided a weighted average wearing rate for Melbourne. The 42% figure would have come from Vic Roads annual surveys.
The Monash surveys were a 64 subset of 105 survey sites. Providing the 42% figure would probably have been more accurate than the 32% figure, at least that’s my understanding and judgement. If anyone had any questions contact details were provided.
With hindsight a clear ref to where the 42% figure came from may have been better.
In both cases 42% or 32% wearing helmets pre law, 58% or 68% not wearing, the drop of 36% is more than half. So it could be reported that the helmet law discouraged about 50% of pre law non -helmeted cyclists.
The Clarke graph shows the basic data for 1990 -1991 and is based on Finch etc. It appears to be accurate.
If you revise your comment to reflect that the 42% figure was not a spelling typo that may be better.
The data for 1992 is subject to a large cycle rally and dryer weather conditions. Wiki cannot provide original research and the Clarke graph has not been subject to peer review criticism. If Tim or Linda had quoted peer review criticism of the graph, that may have been suitable grounds not to include it. Has it stands it is really just people pushing their own point of view about Wiki content, excluding what they think, rather then on merit or principle. The graph was displayed for a number of weeks and is useful to show the changes in both number cycling, wearing rates and it clearly shows that the main effect of legislation was to discourage cycling. This was perhaps the clearest effect from helmet legislation in Australia.
I suggest that the graph issue go to independent consideration for inclusion or not. Please advise who to contact to proceed. Colin at cycling ( talk) 15:50, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
As for Colin's graph, well, it seems more and more likely that he may be working outside his capabilities when it comes to stats etc. That doesn't stop him from commenting here, of course, but it makes me wonder whether anything based on his studies should appear in the article without a really solid consensus. And that consensus seems unlikely at present. Colin, you could escalate the graph issue to WP:DRN or institute a RfC but I'd advise you to simplify any comments that you make there: people's eyes glaze over when they see the sort of thing that has been going on at this talk page and the outcome will not be good in a RfC or at DRN if similar stuff happens there. - Sitush ( talk) 09:42, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
I am not sure what to suggest for the best. For "Cycling levels before and after the introduction of mandatory helmet laws[edit]" Curnow provides a reference to changes in cycling activity across Australia in Table 1, provides one source that has been peer reviewed. It avoids too much discussion. http://www.cyclehelmets.org/papers/p787.pdf
Discouragement,, Though it was known that compulsion to wear a helmet could discourage cycling [3], no national monitoring for it was done, but in most jurisdictions (percentages of total population shown in Table 1, second column) surveys made before and after the helmet laws, mainly to measure compliance with them, found declines in cycling/numbers of cyclists. The measured declines are shown in Table 1 (reproduced from Curnow [74] with kind permission of Health Promotion Journal of Australia), as follows. Table 1. Declines in cycling, Australia
State/territory % Class of cyclist Decline pre-to post-law'
If permission could be obtained for including Table 1, this could be the main data provided and perhaps a short description based on Curnow's report.
This would effectively cuts out most of the present discussions,, 'A 1993 Victorian study by Finch et al',, 'Studies conducted for the NSW Roads and Traffic Authority',, 'The (1995) report by Williams noted',, 'A 1995 SA study by Marshall and White found that',, 'Automatic counters installed on two key cyclist bridges over the Swan river',,
A short summary could be included that helmet wearing rates pre legislation ranged from about 10% to 47% depending on the type of cyclist and location, e.g. a recreational teenager cyclist in country Victoria compared to adults commuting in Melbourne (ref Vic Bike Strategy 1991).
Robinson noted that for children, the decrease in numbers of cyclists counted in New South Wales and Victoria)was greater than the increase in numbers wearing helmets, suggesting that the main effect of the law was to discourage cycling rather than persuade cyclists to wear helmets.[12]
This could effectively sum up the changes in cycling levels for Australia and avoid graphs. As an optional extra, including the Clarke graph or similar with a suitable caveat, if required, would make it clearer to the reader but this aspect could be considered as an extra. Colin at cycling ( talk) 15:00, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
In an area full of strong opinions and COI affecting virtually everyone who rides a bike (and indeed governments with a desire to justify laws to win elections), the best hope of achieving a consensus is to report facts, not opinions. For every published argument in favour, another one can be added against, leading to an ever-increasing indigestible mass of words. But there is no dispute about the data, only its interpretation. Instead of discussing how to present relevant facts (which I personally find hard to interpret without graphs), much time has been wasted on attacking sources of factual information (e.g. the BHRF, of which I serve on the editorial board) or individual editors, many of whom, like myself, ride bikes and so could be considered to have major COI. While these disputes have continued, as I have noted on the talk page, the current article contains factual errors. It's time to move beyond the strong, personal opinions and try and achieve a consensus on what facts should be presented. Dorre ( talk) 22:48, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
My view is that the scope of the article should be left as it now is - it covers all the aspects of bicycle helmets in Australia that are unique to Australia. It is inappropriate to cover bicycle helmet effectiveness in this article, because that it not unique to Australia, and it makes no sense to cover just Australian studies of helmet effectiveness, divorced from the context of similar overseas studies. The same argument applies to surveys and studies of the effects of mandatory bicycle helmet laws - Australia may have been the first country to introduce such laws, but that was two decades ago, and now it is far from unique in having mandatory helmet laws, and there is a lot of evidence on the effects of helmet laws on both cycling participation (how many people ride bikes) and on injury rates in cyclists from jurisdictions other than Australia, including NZ, Canada, Spain, the US and Sweden. Thus it makes little sense to examine the effects of just the Australian helmet laws in isolation. My feeling is that the effectiveness of bicycle helmets and related topics (including risk compensation theories) should be covered in the main Bicycle helmets article (they are already), and that promotion of helmet wearing and mandatory helmet laws, and their effects, should have its own article, but one which encompasses all jurisdictions and countries (perhaps with country-specific sections if required). And all these helmet articles should be part of a broader set of article on bicycle safety, helmets being only one aspect of cycling safety. Tim C ( talk) 23:29, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
TimC's observation that "the material on the BHRF is relentlessly anti-helmet and anti-helmet promotion/laws" is not a "distortion", it is entirely consistent with the views expressed by a number of editors in response to the BHFR RfC. Some examples:
During the RfC,I noted a number of factual errors with respect to material on the BHRF site. That was about 3 months ago, and at least 4 BHRF editiorial board members would have seen those comments. I don't think any of those corrections have been made (1 correction was to remove the reference to an anti-helmet paper that was retracted more than a year ago). Refusal to accept facts is 'not conducive' to consensus. Linda.m.ward ( talk) 07:47, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
With more work the article may become suitable. Colin at cycling ( talk) 08:37, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
You are correct. I mean a balanced article that reflects the facts from a neutral point of view. I will see if I can suggest some changes to help. Colin at cycling ( talk) 17:09, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
It's good to come back to this page and see it vastly shrunk and more readable.
The edits have resulted in a few rough edges, e.g.: "The 1978 inquiry" - what inquiry? A reference listed twice (15, 18). A rather strange summary on a list of references from both sides of the debate "These consistently show..." - if they were consistent with each other there wouldn't be a debate! Some of the dates don't seem right/out-of-order. Other odds'n'ends. So I'm going to try and clean these up. It will probably look like a lot more than it is as some bits seem out-of-order so I'll move them around, but the length shouldn't change appreciably. Regarding the 1978 inquiry and its report I'll just insert [full citation needed] - there appears to be no details of what the inquiry was or its report, unless I've missed them... Indeed the whole para contains one reference marked as unreliable, maybe it should just go? Kiwikiped ( talk) 21:45, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
Reading the page there was "History" but no "Now" so I've added a very short section "Two Decades On" (rather than "Today" as it dates better!). In that I have simply referenced one recent paper from each side of the debate and one of the groups formed in opposition to follow up on the comment in the history section about the opposition being initially fragmented. The papers were not chosen as they stand out (and I do not know the authors of either personally), the group was picked based on its recent formation as an Australia-wide collaboration and hence indicative of the recent increase in activity. If people wish to substitute any one of these for one other, without analysis/argument/discussion/original research etc. then that should be OK. Kiwikiped ( talk) 10:07, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
I've no interest in this subject matter and have read only a very few of the sources, so your general amplifications and your corrections to long-standing errors etc were welcome. Surely, there must be a reliable source that is completely independent of the various governmental bodies and the various sides in this argument? Even a newspaper report would be better than taking our finger out of this dyke? Just about every regular contributor to this talk page seems to have an emotional (and frequently intellectual) investment and I'd rather we tried to avoid any encouragement of it. - Sitush ( talk) 12:28, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
I don't know, and please correct me if I am wrong, of any meta-analysis relating to the current state in Australia (well enough one that would be viewed as impartial by both POVs); or a newspaper article doing the same. When I first posted I invited others to substitute one-for-one (yes, no taking the finger out of the dyke!) other suitable references, I've no attachment to the two I selected - any reputable recent paper representative of one of the opposing conclusions would suffice as an example (and best not authored by any of the editors here if possible - that is a "cat meet pigeon" invitation). My second offering was to remove the references to particular papers and simply state that Australian Universities were publishing research coming to opposing conclusions. While I do think supporting references are better, better to report the current state of play than to not report it because people are fighting over the papers to reference.
As I see it now one reference has received no comments against it and the other an insubstantial "original research" comment from the opposing POV. Give it a bit more time for discussion and then add one of the versions in? I think the article would be better with the first, but what is the consensus? Kiwikiped ( talk) 20:38, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
That there are a growing number of anti-law sites/blogs/groups/individuals/whatever is clear, and some have garnered a certain amount of attention (e.g. The Freedom Cyclist probably due to Court cases). Whether any of this is significant or will result in pro-law groups emerging to counter them who knows? And its not for wikipedia to speculate either!
I understand that the earlier statement is factual, so like you I'd leave it. Given it is there it seemed right to bring it up-to-date - while not introducing any opinion either way as to the merits of these groups! The section can of course omit any reference to organisation among the opposition and just make reference to the ongoing debate apparent through work of the various universities. Is there a consensus that it should not be included? Or that some other group should be used as an example?
I picked de Jong as an example of a published research by an Australian academic which comes to one particular conclusion. Whether folk who favour research which comes to the opposing conclusion find fault with this work is both unsurprising and not relevant in this context. I strongly suspect the folk of the opposing POV to you find fault with the CARRS-Q paper which was selected as an example of a recent Australian paper supportive of legislation - but again that is not relevant in this context.
The question for you is there any recent paper by an Australian academic which is unsupportive of legislation that you would be happy for Wikipedia to reference? If you can present an alternative paper, or an argument why no such paper can be referenced, then please do so. I've no axe to grind as to the selection of de Jong or CARRS-Q, they were just picked as examples of the opposing conclusions coming from different Australian academics, and I said from the start appropriate substitutions can be made. Indeed, though I think it less informative, I offered a second version of the text which included *no* references, just reported the fact that today there are Australian academics producing papers coming to opposing conclusions. Given your passion for your POV I would understand your position if you expressed a wish that these academics would "see the light", but I wouldn't accept your position if you argue that the very existence of their work should be suppressed - any more than I would accept someone from the opposing POV arguing that the work of academics supportive of your POV should be suppressed! Kiwikiped ( talk) 21:53, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
BRD Process Wrapup
Sitush initiated a BRD process for this small addition to the article to bring it up to the present day. No specific reason was given. Regular contributors: ( Linda.m.ward, Dorre, Tim C and Richard Keatinge (Note: the latter's comments appear in the following thread - this thread started off as one as Sitush reverted two different edits at the same time); representative of both major POVs editing the article have contributed to the discussion. Over a week has transpired since the discussion started and no additions have been made for 5 days.
Concerns were expressed over one of the two references selected. These appear to be have sprung from a genuine misunderstanding of the purpose of the references, which is simply to be examples of recent work by Australian academics which have come to opposing conclusions. From the start it was made clear that alternative papers could be suggested, no such suggestions have been made. Also no objections to including references have been made, though an alternative wording along those lines was presented by me early on it found no supporters.
BRD requires us to move the process along. Based on the above the edit is being reinstated in its original form. Should folk feel that other references should be used, or other changes be made to the wording, it is strongly encouraged that such changes be posited in the Talk section first and consensus achieved. Kiwikiped ( talk) 19:29, 4 July 2013 (UTC)