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User:Colin at cycling added a quote from a 20 year-old non-peer-reviewed report by a UK policy analyst Mayer Hillman asserting that bicycle helmets do not protect from rotational injury. The Hillman report is not available online, but the quote gives a reference to this assertion: McCarthy 1992. Presumably this reference is to an opinion piece in the BMJ by Mike McCarthy - see http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1883058/ - in which MCarthy makes the assertion that "...helmets may lessen direct compression but do not protect the brain from rotational trauma" without the support of any references or citations of biomechanical or epidemiological research (in fact, no references in support of this assertion at all). For these reasons, I don't think this quote meets WP standards for sufficient authority. Furthermore, this article is about bicycle helmets in Australia. The 20 year old opinions of a UK policy analyst just do not belong in this article. Therefore removing the addition. Tim C ( talk) 11:08, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
User:Colin at cycling The statement by Dr Hillman has not been disputed in almost 20 years. Both medical professions Mike McCarthy Senior lecturer University of London at the time and Dr Hillman Senior Fellow Emeritus who had both written about cycling, health and safety, they had suitable infortmation backgrounds to support their statement. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Colin at cycling ( talk • contribs) 11:22, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
I don't agree - neither Hillman nor McCarthy cite any research in support of their claims. Neither are expert injury researchers. Also, the quote is 20 years old - there has been more research since then - indeed, the most recent research is mentioned in the preceding sentence. The addition of such a 20 year old quote from a UK policy person at that particular point in this article about bicycle helmets in Australia is misplaced given that recent Australian helmet research is being covered in this section of the article. It is not necessary to offset every positive helmet research finding with a juxtaposed quote which sheds doubt on helmet effectiveness. If the quote warrants mention in WP at all (I don't believe it does), then it should be added to the relevant section of the main Bicycle helmet article. Tim C ( talk) 11:32, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
As User:Richard Keatinge has noted, this article has become unencyclopaedic, as more and more details are added. These details are important for the accuracy of the article and to maintain a NPOV, but they make it very hard to read. The typical solution to this, used in scholarly writing for hundreds of years, is the footnote. As an experiment, I have moved some critique of one of Dorothy Robinson's review papers to a footnote, as well as a reference to a magistrate's opinion which had been inserted between the mention of Robinson's paper and the discussion of critiques of it (thus interrupting the flow of the discourse). If there are no objections, I intend to do this throughout the article, as time permits. Others are encouraged to do so too. Note that it must be done fairly and from a NPOV - details of critiques of all papers, no matter what they report, should be given the same footnote treatment, if the discussion is technical or very detailed. But not everything needs to be moved to footnotes - judgement is required. Please make such footnote changes one edit at a time, so that each can be reviewed by other editors and reverted or modified if necessary. Comments? Tim C ( talk) 21:34, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
I should add that footnotes are inserted using the efn template. Ref tags can be included in the footnotes, so whole chunks of existing page mark-up just need to be cut-and-pasted inside an efn template to move that text and all associated references into a footnote. Tim C ( talk) 21:45, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
This would result in a more misleading article, as most readers do not read footnotes. Many helmet studies, notably funded by governments keen to defend current policy, use flawed methodologies that exaggerate the benefits of helmets. Their results can be misleading. To include the claims in the main text, while putting balancing arguments in less prevalent footnotes results in the misleading material being given undue prominence.
A better way to make this article more readable would be not to include controversial studies. The claims and counter claims amount to little more than confusing people. That would be much clearer and more succinct than giving prominence to misleading claims. Harvey4931 ( talk) 21:42, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
-Who determines which studies are controversial and which ones aren't? Is there any study cited in this article that isn't controversial in some way? If Footnotes are the way to go then it's an all or nothing approach and all sources have to be treated equally. Dsnmi ( talk) 02:57, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
User:Colin at cycling has added a whole major section, titled "Head rotation and injury rates", without any consultation, and which is not specific to the topic of this article, which is bicycle helmets in Australia. There is already a sub-section titled "rotational injury" in the main Bicycle helmet article and the material added belongs there, if it meets WP standards (noting that only one author, Curnow, has pushed the rotational injury theory about bicycle helmets - that is, it is not a widely held concern amongst injury experts that bicycle helmets cause or worsen rotational injury to the brian, and recent evidence suggests that they don't). However, I also note that much of the material added to this new section is a non-NPOV rehash of material that is already in the main article. In addition, the new major section has been added in a way that makes subsequent sections subordinate to it, when they should not be. In view of this major disruption to the article, I am reverting the changes. Tim C ( talk) 12:22, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
"this new section is a non-NPOV rehash of material that is already in the main article" It is not intended to be, can precise details of the non-NPOV be provided? ~~Colin at cycling~~ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Colin at cycling ( talk • contribs) 16:29, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
Response by User:Tim.churches: Sure. User:Colin at cycling added:
"StClair and Chinn recorded acceleration in helmet tests from approximately 3000 to 20000 rad./sec2, higher than the level that could result in death. Average rotational acceleration for size E, 54cms, were 5333 rad./sec2 compared to J size, 57cms, of 13505 rad./sec2."
The StClair and Chinn report is available online. Here is the relevant section of the abstract for the report:
"Assuming that the response of the unhelmeted head is similar to the helmeted head during an oblique impact at 8.5m/s at 15º, this may generate between 7500rad/s² and 12000rad/s² of rotational acceleration. This is potentially more severe than the 3000rad/s² to 8500rad/s² measured during abrasive and projection oblique tests with size 54cm (E) helmeted headforms. However, for the most severe cases using a size 57cm (J) headform, rotational acceleration was typically greater than 10,000rad/s² and increased to levels of 20,000rad/s², a level at which a 35% - 50% risk of serious AIS3+ injuries is anticipated. Overall, it was concluded that for the majority of cases considered, the helmet can provide life saving protection during typical linear impacts and, in addition, the typical level of rotational acceleration observed using a helmeted headform would generally be no more injurious than expected for a bare human head."
Thus, the material added to the article gives the reader the impression that StClair and Chinn found that helmets increase rotational acceleration compared to a non-helmeted situation, but in fact, they found no such thing. The addition of selected facts from StClair and Chinn while omitting their conclusion that "...the typical level of rotational acceleration observed using a helmeted headform would generally be no more injurious than expected for a bare human head" represents a non-NPOV edit.
User:Colin at cycling added:
"Williams in Australia evaluated the protective performance of 64 helmets and provided details of the impact locations, most were to the sides and temporal regions, few to the crown or some to the front. This suggested that most impacts will incur a level of rotation."
This omits the important detail that Williams evaluated helmets from crashes occurring between 1987 and 1989, with experiements on new helmets available in Australia in 1989, which is 24 years ago. Both helmet technology and construction techniques and helmet testing standards have improved substantially since then - bicycle helmets have evolved and changed a lot in the last quarter of a century. To mention the Williams research while omitting this detail represents a non-NPOV edit in my opinion.
User:Colin at cycling added:
"[Colin] Clarke 2007 compared possible impacts for helmeted v non-helmeted head profile in the occipital region and relative impact forces and number of impacts, reasoning that helmets will incur more impacts than a bare head due to their larger size. Total relative helmeted forces were 54% higher based on a head to helmet width ratio of 1.27, but the average force per impact was lower"
The reference given is for a paper given at a cycling conference, not a peer-reviewed scientific conference or journal. Clarke appears to be a cycling activist, not an injury epidemiologist or statistician, nor a biomechanical safety expert. As such, the source given for these statements does not meet WP standards for authority.
Finally, User:Colin at cycling added the text:
"Many factors may be involved in a crash, impact velocity, impact locations, size of helmet, how well a fit, style of helmets, if a near miss may occur for a bare head, Experiments may account for some aspects."
No source, reference or authority was provided for these assertions, and thus they must be assumed to be the opinion of the editor who added them. I think that the intent is to suggest that experimental studies on helmets do not precisely replicate all the aspects of real-life helmet/head impacts in cycling accidents. The question is whether the important aspects are replicated in experiments. That is a complex technical question, and requires referenced scientific evidence. Tim C ( talk) 23:43, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
Response by Colin at cycling: Thank you Tim for those details. Picking out the important points.
The figures I quote for helmet impacts are measured results for modern helmets, 5333 rad./sec2 and 13505 rad./sec2, 20000 rad./sec2.
"Assuming that the response of the unhelmeted head is similar to the helmeted head" This assumption is invalid, a bare head/hair coefficient of friction is about 0.15 (hair), helmets about 0.4. Reporting the StClair and Chinn assumption would be adding to their invalid approach.
“...the typical level of rotational acceleration observed using a helmeted headform would generally be no more injurious than expected for a bare human head"
Could be included but a note to say this is disputed, Cyclehelmets.org provides discussion of this issue. It takes no account of near misses for bare head that result in impacts for one helmeted.
“This omits the important detail that Williams evaluated helmets from crashes occurring between 1987 and 1989, with experiments on new helmets available in Australia in 1989, which is 24 years ago.”
Williams details the impact locations and this information is likely to be similar today, mainly to the sides and frontal temporal areas. 'In 1991 Williams in Australia', a simple change dates the article, but also the citation dates the article.
“Clarke 2007 compared possible impacts for helmeted” Velocity Munch 2007 included the paper, after reviewing. Clarke published ‘Safer Cycling 1995’ an 80 page technical booklet on safety issues and cycling. Restricting Wiki comments to selected groups?
The details provided added important information and intended as a NPOV but granted more information could have been added, but the length of the article is already long and trying to be concise was also a priority.
~~
Colin at cycling:~~ — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Colin at cycling (
talk •
contribs) 09:40, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
Tim C (talk) 20:57, 7 April 2013 (UTC) says
“Yes, material to be included in WP articles is restricted - see the WP policy at Wikipedia:Verifiability. As I said, the opinions of a cycling advocate presented at cycling conference do not constitute sufficient authority for a discussion of the biomechanics of head collisions in bicycle accidents. A paper in a peer-reviewed scientific journal on biomechanics or similar, or a conference paper by a recognised biomechanical researcher, is required to back up such assertions.”
Tim is referring to a published paper by Velocity cycling confernce Munich 2007, it considered the impacts that could occur for a helmeted profile compared to non-helmeted profile together with a range of helmet issues. ( http://www.nationaler-radverkehrsplan.de/eu-bund-laender/eu/velocity/presentations/velocity2007_pp_17c_long_public.pdf). The ECF and Velocity have review committees and scientists who consider cycling information before accepting it as suitable for publication and including in their program. The author of the report provides his email address in case any questions arise.
Accepting published reports from cycling conferences allows Wikipedia to provide much more information than would occur from a narrow selection from specialists, that is if they addressed a particular topic. Funding may not be available or other projects may have higher priorities. Bikesafe Conference Newcastle 1986 provided a range of useful report, various Velocity conferences provide very useful reports. Allowing a selection process by Tim or others to suit a particular point of view is not a progressive or fair approach. Tim or others are free to point to any weaknesses or errors in reports and this allows a suitable balance. ~~Colin at cycling~~ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Colin at cycling ( talk • contribs) 10:13, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
User:Colin at cycling added - Hillman stated, "they do not protect the head from rotational trauma which can seriously damage the brain and brain stem and which is quite common when cyclists are hit a glancing blow from a motor vehicle rather than in direct collision with it (McCarthy, 1992)".[78]
Reasons, Dr Hillman Senior Fellow Emerious and who wrote the MBA publication Cylcing Towards Health and Safety 1992 view are worthy of including as perhaps the most qualified person in the world on cycling and health aspects. The quote is from his considered report on cycle helmets. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Colin at cycling ( talk • contribs) 11:07, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
User:Harvey4931 has resurrected a large section of this Talk page that had been archived, but doesn't seem to have added anything to that discussion. Was this a mistake? Can it be archived again? All the past discussion is still available on the archive page for this Talk i.e. it is still readily accessible. Bringing back old discussions but then not adding anything is potentially very confusing. Tim C ( talk) 05:28, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
Currently there are two instances in this article in which self-published, anonymous web pages on the web site of an organisation called the Cyclists Rights Action Group (CRAG) are used as sources for statements and assertions in the article. I do not think that such web pages meet the WP policy requirements for reliable sources, and instead fall into the self-published category. In particular, the "About US" page of the CRAG web site states: "The Cyclists Rights Action Group (CRAG) was formed at a public meeting in Canberra, ACT, Australia, on 30th January 1992, in direct response to the introduction of Mandatory Helmet Laws (MHL) for bicyclists, with the aim of protecting cyclists against undue interference by Governments and erosion of civil liberties. The current aim of CRAG is to oppose legislation compelling cyclists to wear helmets." As such, it is impossible to consider CRAG or its web site as a reliable, unbiased source with a neutral point-of-view - the organisation has an explicit agenda and thus should not be used as a source for material in this WP article. I propose removal of the references and the statements and assertions which they are used to support. Tim C ( talk) 21:40, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
I have added a citation needed tag to the assertion that in SA law may not have been enforced immediately. As noted on Talk by Jake Olivier on 27 Feb 2013, this claim is not substantiated by any analysis or given a citation Linda.m.ward ( talk) 03:50, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
The Marshall and White study was cited as the source for a claim of a decrease in the number of people over 15 who cycled at least once a week, from 12.0 per 100 people to 10.4. I could not find these numbers in the Marshall and White study so have added a citation needed tag. Linda.m.ward ( talk) 12:28, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
I have tagged 2 occurences of a 250% increase in cycling in Sydney. The citation provided was Robinson's 1996 study, which in turn cited the Ausbike 92 proceedings, which mentioned an RTA report, but did not provide a citation. Linda.m.ward ( talk) 09:39, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
No reference has been cited for a claim of an increase in cycling from 300,000 to 400,000 between 1986 and 1989 in WA, so I have added a citation needed tag. Linda.m.ward ( talk) 11:40, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
Recent edits have left us with large numbers of claims, counter-claims and counter-counter claims that will leave most readers thoroughly confused. The details of these studies tell us little that is useful for an encyclopedic article, except that there is an ongoing debate.
This does not lead to a clear and informative Wikipedia article. The article has become much more confusing than it was two months ago. To re-balance the article, it might be useful to repeat what we did late last year:
We need to report on the fact of debates, and even very long lists of references may be useful as further reading, but we need to outline the main points of debate rather than rehearse every detail of every argument. Harvey4931 ( talk) 23:28, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
I think the key is to agree on same basic guidelines in order to neaten it up. If we can establish an agreed set of rules that all future edits adhere to then there's no reason why we can't maintain the Neutral POV which this article now has (and hasn't enjoyed for a long time) while making the article less intimidating to a first time reader. Both sides of the debate need to accept that this page is never going to become a propaganda page for their own way of thinking and trust that a neutral presentation of the research relating to the issue will back up their side without their own need to editorialise and censor. Dsnmi ( talk) 00:50, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but I am totally opposed to any reversion to an earlier version. A lot of effort has gone into this article over the last few months, both in bringing a much more NPOV to it by reflecting all POVs with a better balance, removal of editorialising, and in being much more comprehensive in its reference to the scientific literature (and lots of tidying up of poorly formatted and incomplete references, redundant references etc). The reality is that there is evidence published in reliable sources (scientific journals etc) that helmets protect the head and brain, aren't dangerous and that helmet laws increase helmet wearing and decrease head injuries. The fact that evidence exists must be reflected in the article in the same way that the work of Dorothy Robinson and Bill Curnow is reflected in the article. If some of the scientific literature which is relevant to this article is discussed, then all of it must be discussed in order to maintain a NPOV. Yes, that makes for a rather unencyclopaedic article, difficult, tedious and probably somewhat confusing to read. But NPOV trumps encyclopaedic in WP, I'm afraid. I am in favour of judicious restructuring of the article (discuss in Talk first!) in order to make it read better, and for greater use of footnotes in a balanced and NPOV manner. But hoping for a nice concise summary article is a pipe dream, simply because the range of views of what constitutes "the truth" are so different. What may seem like a fair summary to one person is a totally-biased bunch of misinformation to another. Tim C ( talk) 00:05, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
Some contributors have missed the key issue: an encyclopedia is written for the benefit of readers, by providing a clear, concise, neutral and informative article. However, some helmet advocates seem to place promoting their points of view above that objective.
Helmet advocates seem too eager to quote studies that reinforces their beliefs, without considering the objectivity of the study quoted. For example, studies have been quoted, without disclosing that they were funded by a party with a conflict of interest. Those studies typically use flawed methodologies, resulting in misleading claims not supported by the underlying data. This inevitably leads others to fill in the gaps, pointing out flaws in the study. The resulting set of claims and counterclaims interests few people except avid helmet advocates keen to promote their point of view. The claim that this article has become more neutral after adding misleading studies is incorrect.
Helmet advocates mean well, however their misleading claims and the inevitable rebuttals do not belong in an encyclopedia. We could spend the next few years counter claiming and arguing about misleading claims, or we could revert to an earlier version of the article that is not loaded with misleading claims.
The bottom line is that Wikipedia is not an advocacy platform for people's causes. There are other outlets more appropriate for that. Harvey4931 ( talk) 23:45, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
User:Dsnmi: The edits I made followed a long discussion on the talk page of Bicycle Helmets as I stated in the editing comment - start at the topic "Ding-dong over describing authors" which continues as "Attribution of articles published by the Bicycle Helmet Research Foundation (BHRF) in this article". Apologies I thought the reference to the topic on the other page would be sufficient for anyone to follow and there was no need to repeat it all here. Many of the same editors of that page have edited this page and some of the same inappropriate attributions - clear violations of normal practice and Wikipedia guidelines - have been added here (not necessarily by the same editors of course). In making the edit I came across a number of structure errors in references (you can see the error messages inserted by Wikipedia in the article) and fixed then, your undo has also put all those errors back. Note that the same cleanup (though there was much less to do) has been done on Bicycle helmets in New Zealand. Kiwikiped ( talk) 09:40, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
I watched as one POV added Dihn's recent Letter to the Editor, followed by the other POV adding balancing material (from their POV), etc. yet nobody mentioned it was actually a Letter to the Editor, not a peer-reviewed published study... Am I wrong, are Letters to the MJA peer-reviewed? And then one side edited a reference adding during this time to make it clear it was a Letter, yet still restraint from the other size and Dihn's remains a "study" with the clear implication it is a peer-review publication in the MJA. Maybe I am wrong, but as far as I can see the Dihn reference is just a letter. Frankly I think this article is going (or has gone) the way of the main Bicycle Helmets one - far too long and unreadable - and all the stuff added by both POV's around the Dihn Letter could just go and the article would probably be better. However as a compromise I announce my intention to go in and make sure it is clear this is a Letter to the Editor, pending the response to this Talk item - unless of course whoever added (I can't remember) it would like to do that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kiwikiped ( talk • contribs) 03:51, 26 May 2013 (UTC)
User:Drmies has deleted some material from the section "Health implications of bicycle helmets legislation", with the edit note of "none of this content pertains to the content. if you wish to argue that helmet laws lead to more bicycle use and thus more health--well, that's probably OR [original research])"
This post to Talk is not to take issue with the edit made - it is a useful pruning of the article, in my view. Rather it is just to note that I don't think any researcher or anyone else has ever suggested that bicycle helmet laws lead to more bicycle use. There is quite a lot of contention over whether bicycle helmet laws reduce cycling levels long-term, and if so, by how much, and the degree of any short- or long-term effects on various age groups etc. Unfortunately the available data on these questions is far from conclusive either way and the real picture is probably quite complex, and almost certainly varies from country to country. Related questions are: if helmet laws and/or helmet promotion do in fact reduce cycling, is the reduction in health (remembering that cycling is not the only form of exercise possible) significant and does it outweigh benefits due to reduced head injuries etc? Almost every aspect of these questions is contended, and for some aspects, there is a complete lack of research at the moment. Tim C ( talk) 02:08, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
I've just removed a lot of content from the History section. This entire article needs to be trimmed by about 80-90% and probably merged with another article. In its present state, it is absolutely ridiculous content for an encyclopaedia: far too detailed, and in particular far too reliant on contested studies and indeed studies, period. If people want to have an in-depth about the merits or otherwise of various studies and pieces of legislation then please go do it somewhere else. - Sitush ( talk) 13:02, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
Since you are familiar with the article subject and seem to accept that it has excessive detail, perhaps you could start to remove it? Be bold. - Sitush ( talk) 08:32, 1 June 2013 (UTC)
Can someone please give me the page numbers from the Robinson study that have caused us to write Before the law was enforced in Queensland, bicycle travel represented about 2.3% of total vehicle kilometres; after the helmet law was enforced in 1993, bicycle offence notices increased to 7.9% of traffic offence notices, implying that per kilometre, bicycle offence notices were about four times higher than all other traffic offences put together - speeding, drink-driving, not wearing seatbelts, careless driving or riding, etc. It is 13 pages of pretty dense statistics but at first glance what I am seeing is someone drawing their own conclusions from a source. - Sitush ( talk) 18:11, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
The first paragraph of the section titled Bicycle_helmets_in_Australia#Surveys_of_helmet_use_and_cycling_participation_before_and_after_the_introduction_of_helmet_laws seems to be a waste of space. Some guys conducted a study, came up with some numbers and said that there was a statistical problem because of a rally that was taking place but that excluding the rally element from the results would itself create a statistical problem (presumably, one related to size of the poopulation, chi-square tests etc). The figures that we show are for 1991 but at the end of the paragraph we show a re-analysis of that study, done by someone else and excluding the very thing that the original researchers said could not be excluded for statistical reasons. The figure given there is for 1992. So, we are comparing chalk and cheese (different years) and we are also getting involved in an academic argument regarding statistical viability. If the figures are not viable then we should not be showing them at all. The gist of it all seems to be that the number of cyclists in this small-scale study fell by maybe 27% or maybe a bit more, so surely it is acceptable for us to cut that entire paragraph, replacing with something like Analysis of data collected over the years 1990-1992 in Melbourne suggests that the number of cyclists fell by somewhere between 27% and XX%., where XX is whatever Finch's 1992 figure may be. We don't need all the numbers that are presently shown. - Sitush ( talk) 18:34, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
On 31 May a number of changes were made, mainly deletions. The process seems inappropriate in that to undue would probably require some time.
![]() | This article may contain an excessive amount of intricate detail that may interest only a particular audience. |
~~Colin at cycling~~
My understanding via a recent report at WP:ANI is that this article may also be subject to conflicts of interest etc - it might be best if the regular contributors at least declare their position if there is any possibility of a COI. To that end, I will say that I am a Brit, have never been to Australia and, although I once cycled extensively and thoroughly enjoyed it, I'm long since past even being able to get on a bike - too many screws, plates and pins in my leg (due to a non-cycling incident). - Sitush ( talk) 00:38, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
I have been reverted here. We say that Robinson criticised something because it ignored similar trends found in pedestrians. The figures that have been reinstated are unnecessary stats: they add nothing to the statement that is of significance.
Look,folks, we really, really need to make this article more accessible and it is not being helped by throwing all these stats around. I get the impression that a fair few of the major contributors are professional statisticians etc and they may be unaware of just how daunting it is for the average reader to comprehend such a mass of figures. - Sitush ( talk) 11:44, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
User:Dorre made a statement about her conflicts of interest at Talk:Bicycle_helmet/Archive_4#Conflicts_of_interest. Tim C ( talk) 00:01, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
As an aside to the initial point of this thread, Dorre and Richard Keatinge both seem to agree that there are too many stats. Why not do something about it, then? I realise that one of you (Richard) and probably both have conflicts of interest here but you could at least explain exactly which stats you mean and propose changes here. - Sitush ( talk) 15:44, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
Richard's declaration that he "[does not] have any conflict of interest at all" notwithstanding, other editors do need to be aware that User:Richard Keatinge is one of two listed Directors of the Bicycle Helmets Research Foundation (BHRF) (see http://www.companieslist.co.uk/04864151-the-bicycle-helmet-research-foundation ) and is listed as being on its Editorial Board. Previous WP discussion of the BHRF can be found at Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_146#Bicycle_Helmet_Research_Foundation. Tim C ( talk) 22:10, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
The site gives readers an insight into the problems, claims were made of a 70% reduction but 3 years later in the Monash report they claimed they could not tell if the reductions were due to less cycling or helmets and by 2013 Vic roads claim a reduction of 23%. Including info on pedestrians helps readers to appreciate the level of changes occurring. The primary purpose is to reflect information, if easy to read great, but the detail is important. Bearing in mind if the reduction of 23% is lower than the reduction in cycling activity, the risk per person increases. The information provided reflects various reports and provides a sort of balance. To evaluate them on wiki appears to be heading for original research. Colin at cycling ( talk) 20:11, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
That sensational title is one way of summarizing the changes to this (and the bicycle helmets) page over the past several months. So much detail has been added that it's impossible to see the wood for the trees. Most casual readers are not interested in what happened in individual states, or cities within individual states, but the effect on the whole country. However, it's very difficult for a single editor to delete this additional material without being accused of vandalism. Consider, for example the long and detailed description of the weather in the Melbourne survey where 2011 cyclists were counted in 1991:
Most people would agree that there's not a great deal of difference between 27% and 36%, and that the detailed description of the weather isn't too important because the pre-law weather was about the same as the average for the 2 post-law years (slightly better in 92, slightly worse in 91). So why all the complicated detail? A cynic would say that it's to hide the relevant information about numbers counted and helmet wearing. Pre-law, 1293 teenagers were counted, of which 272 wore helmets. A year later, 670 teenagers were counted, of which 302 wore helmets. The insightful comparison of the drop in teenage cycling (632 fewer teenage cycling) with the the increase of 30 in the number of teenagers wearing helmets gets lost because of the long and detailed discussion of the weather.
The small numbers observed in these surveys contrasts with the 100,000 people cycling to work on census day in 2011. Cycling is seasonal, so surveys taken at the same time of year generally have the same weather and are comparable. Comparing the results of surveys taken at different times of year (e.g. the pre and post-law survey of adults in NSW) is generally a lot less reliable.
The graphs of the census data is important because provides a reasonably consistent series from 1976 to 2011 for the whole country, illustrating the difference between trends unrelated to helmet wearing and the effect of helmet laws. This simply cannot be put into words.
This article's problems were compounded by the addition of new sections that effectively duplicated existing ones. For example,'Surveys of helmet use and cycling participation', effectively repeats (with many additional details to) the information that was in an existing section 'Bicycle usage: changes without concurrent control groups around the time of helmet compulsion'. Such edits added to the repetition, making the article longer and unreadable. The last time the article was pruned, there was consensus on the talk page to go back to the version as at Nov 28, 2012. Because the current article is so confusing and difficult to read, anyone who wants to prune it should consider reading that version and then see what additional material is relevant and informative. This might provide sufficient insight to help distinguish the wood from the trees.
Dorre (
talk) 22:27, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
I have great difficulty with edits that make exaggerated claims about the benefits of helmet laws. Although, as a member of the editorial board of the BHRF, some people might consider I have a conflict of interest, the data on head and non-head injuries shown on the BHRF website
Head and non-head injuries over time is not consistent with the quote added by Tim:
"A 1995 study by Carr et al. found that cyclist admissions to hospitals in Victoria in the first four years after helmet legislation was introduced were 40% below the number expected on the basis of pre-legislation trends, and that the severity of cyclist head injury had also declined subsequent to the helmet legislation.[18]"
Some balance is necessary. Tim didn't like my direct quote from the report stating the fall in head injuries, but indicating that some of the reduction might be due to reduced cycling. Does anyone therefore have a problem with a counterbalancing direct quote from the BHRF web page noting that "Both head and non-head injuries fell substantially"?
Dorre (
talk) 10:17, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
If someone wants to include a graph here then it must involve precisely zero original research, be in focus and ideally not have been created by anyone who has a stake in the academic dispute. Indeed, we may be entering the realms of WP:MEDRS and might not even be in a position where we can invite people to draw a conclusion, as you have invited me to do above. My suspicion is that, as some people said around the time of the ANI report, this article has no real reason for existing because the content that matters can be dealt with via a merge with an article about helmet legislation worldwide. - Sitush ( talk) 16:45, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
Perhaps we should list all areas and consider where general agreement exists. Basically the topic runs for 30+ years, 1980 - 2013, many reports can be accessed. What to include, built up to legislation, did Governments act properly, has legislation provided a benefit to Australia, effects on individuals, reporting the evidence etc. Reporting areas of scientific debate would help readers to appreciate why debate occurs. If the article ends up being long and slightly complicated in a few parts but accurate, reliable and balanced this may provide the best approach for understanding the topic. "removing all of the scientific debate" may not be a good objective, "this article has no real reason for existing because the content that matters can be dealt with via a merge with an article about helmet legislation worldwide" many country seems to vary their approach to helmets or legislation and trying to include all the details into one report may mean missing out important information. Colin at cycling ( talk) 18:38, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
Road safety, cycling levels, enforcement approaches, cultural aspects all vary with countries. Even within a country variation in both type of enforcement or just promotion occurs. Readers may end up not knowing which country or part of that country is being discussed. Many wiki contributions could also occur and trying to have one article and explain each aspect to both readers and people contributing may be vary time consuming.
I think we have different points of view. I have some concerns that a useful balance is being missed. The risk level of cycling v helmet effects. The 1991 article by Ron Shepard provided details of the relative risk, Ron had given evidence to government in 1986. Robinson's 1996 paper provided data on risk per million hours. The issue of wearing protection is about risk v effects. Ron Shepard's article was removed and this would not help readers. The article probably fails to adequately balance risk against effects, to help readers have a good understanding. Colin at cycling ( talk) 16:25, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 |
User:Colin at cycling added a quote from a 20 year-old non-peer-reviewed report by a UK policy analyst Mayer Hillman asserting that bicycle helmets do not protect from rotational injury. The Hillman report is not available online, but the quote gives a reference to this assertion: McCarthy 1992. Presumably this reference is to an opinion piece in the BMJ by Mike McCarthy - see http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1883058/ - in which MCarthy makes the assertion that "...helmets may lessen direct compression but do not protect the brain from rotational trauma" without the support of any references or citations of biomechanical or epidemiological research (in fact, no references in support of this assertion at all). For these reasons, I don't think this quote meets WP standards for sufficient authority. Furthermore, this article is about bicycle helmets in Australia. The 20 year old opinions of a UK policy analyst just do not belong in this article. Therefore removing the addition. Tim C ( talk) 11:08, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
User:Colin at cycling The statement by Dr Hillman has not been disputed in almost 20 years. Both medical professions Mike McCarthy Senior lecturer University of London at the time and Dr Hillman Senior Fellow Emeritus who had both written about cycling, health and safety, they had suitable infortmation backgrounds to support their statement. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Colin at cycling ( talk • contribs) 11:22, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
I don't agree - neither Hillman nor McCarthy cite any research in support of their claims. Neither are expert injury researchers. Also, the quote is 20 years old - there has been more research since then - indeed, the most recent research is mentioned in the preceding sentence. The addition of such a 20 year old quote from a UK policy person at that particular point in this article about bicycle helmets in Australia is misplaced given that recent Australian helmet research is being covered in this section of the article. It is not necessary to offset every positive helmet research finding with a juxtaposed quote which sheds doubt on helmet effectiveness. If the quote warrants mention in WP at all (I don't believe it does), then it should be added to the relevant section of the main Bicycle helmet article. Tim C ( talk) 11:32, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
As User:Richard Keatinge has noted, this article has become unencyclopaedic, as more and more details are added. These details are important for the accuracy of the article and to maintain a NPOV, but they make it very hard to read. The typical solution to this, used in scholarly writing for hundreds of years, is the footnote. As an experiment, I have moved some critique of one of Dorothy Robinson's review papers to a footnote, as well as a reference to a magistrate's opinion which had been inserted between the mention of Robinson's paper and the discussion of critiques of it (thus interrupting the flow of the discourse). If there are no objections, I intend to do this throughout the article, as time permits. Others are encouraged to do so too. Note that it must be done fairly and from a NPOV - details of critiques of all papers, no matter what they report, should be given the same footnote treatment, if the discussion is technical or very detailed. But not everything needs to be moved to footnotes - judgement is required. Please make such footnote changes one edit at a time, so that each can be reviewed by other editors and reverted or modified if necessary. Comments? Tim C ( talk) 21:34, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
I should add that footnotes are inserted using the efn template. Ref tags can be included in the footnotes, so whole chunks of existing page mark-up just need to be cut-and-pasted inside an efn template to move that text and all associated references into a footnote. Tim C ( talk) 21:45, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
This would result in a more misleading article, as most readers do not read footnotes. Many helmet studies, notably funded by governments keen to defend current policy, use flawed methodologies that exaggerate the benefits of helmets. Their results can be misleading. To include the claims in the main text, while putting balancing arguments in less prevalent footnotes results in the misleading material being given undue prominence.
A better way to make this article more readable would be not to include controversial studies. The claims and counter claims amount to little more than confusing people. That would be much clearer and more succinct than giving prominence to misleading claims. Harvey4931 ( talk) 21:42, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
-Who determines which studies are controversial and which ones aren't? Is there any study cited in this article that isn't controversial in some way? If Footnotes are the way to go then it's an all or nothing approach and all sources have to be treated equally. Dsnmi ( talk) 02:57, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
User:Colin at cycling has added a whole major section, titled "Head rotation and injury rates", without any consultation, and which is not specific to the topic of this article, which is bicycle helmets in Australia. There is already a sub-section titled "rotational injury" in the main Bicycle helmet article and the material added belongs there, if it meets WP standards (noting that only one author, Curnow, has pushed the rotational injury theory about bicycle helmets - that is, it is not a widely held concern amongst injury experts that bicycle helmets cause or worsen rotational injury to the brian, and recent evidence suggests that they don't). However, I also note that much of the material added to this new section is a non-NPOV rehash of material that is already in the main article. In addition, the new major section has been added in a way that makes subsequent sections subordinate to it, when they should not be. In view of this major disruption to the article, I am reverting the changes. Tim C ( talk) 12:22, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
"this new section is a non-NPOV rehash of material that is already in the main article" It is not intended to be, can precise details of the non-NPOV be provided? ~~Colin at cycling~~ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Colin at cycling ( talk • contribs) 16:29, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
Response by User:Tim.churches: Sure. User:Colin at cycling added:
"StClair and Chinn recorded acceleration in helmet tests from approximately 3000 to 20000 rad./sec2, higher than the level that could result in death. Average rotational acceleration for size E, 54cms, were 5333 rad./sec2 compared to J size, 57cms, of 13505 rad./sec2."
The StClair and Chinn report is available online. Here is the relevant section of the abstract for the report:
"Assuming that the response of the unhelmeted head is similar to the helmeted head during an oblique impact at 8.5m/s at 15º, this may generate between 7500rad/s² and 12000rad/s² of rotational acceleration. This is potentially more severe than the 3000rad/s² to 8500rad/s² measured during abrasive and projection oblique tests with size 54cm (E) helmeted headforms. However, for the most severe cases using a size 57cm (J) headform, rotational acceleration was typically greater than 10,000rad/s² and increased to levels of 20,000rad/s², a level at which a 35% - 50% risk of serious AIS3+ injuries is anticipated. Overall, it was concluded that for the majority of cases considered, the helmet can provide life saving protection during typical linear impacts and, in addition, the typical level of rotational acceleration observed using a helmeted headform would generally be no more injurious than expected for a bare human head."
Thus, the material added to the article gives the reader the impression that StClair and Chinn found that helmets increase rotational acceleration compared to a non-helmeted situation, but in fact, they found no such thing. The addition of selected facts from StClair and Chinn while omitting their conclusion that "...the typical level of rotational acceleration observed using a helmeted headform would generally be no more injurious than expected for a bare human head" represents a non-NPOV edit.
User:Colin at cycling added:
"Williams in Australia evaluated the protective performance of 64 helmets and provided details of the impact locations, most were to the sides and temporal regions, few to the crown or some to the front. This suggested that most impacts will incur a level of rotation."
This omits the important detail that Williams evaluated helmets from crashes occurring between 1987 and 1989, with experiements on new helmets available in Australia in 1989, which is 24 years ago. Both helmet technology and construction techniques and helmet testing standards have improved substantially since then - bicycle helmets have evolved and changed a lot in the last quarter of a century. To mention the Williams research while omitting this detail represents a non-NPOV edit in my opinion.
User:Colin at cycling added:
"[Colin] Clarke 2007 compared possible impacts for helmeted v non-helmeted head profile in the occipital region and relative impact forces and number of impacts, reasoning that helmets will incur more impacts than a bare head due to their larger size. Total relative helmeted forces were 54% higher based on a head to helmet width ratio of 1.27, but the average force per impact was lower"
The reference given is for a paper given at a cycling conference, not a peer-reviewed scientific conference or journal. Clarke appears to be a cycling activist, not an injury epidemiologist or statistician, nor a biomechanical safety expert. As such, the source given for these statements does not meet WP standards for authority.
Finally, User:Colin at cycling added the text:
"Many factors may be involved in a crash, impact velocity, impact locations, size of helmet, how well a fit, style of helmets, if a near miss may occur for a bare head, Experiments may account for some aspects."
No source, reference or authority was provided for these assertions, and thus they must be assumed to be the opinion of the editor who added them. I think that the intent is to suggest that experimental studies on helmets do not precisely replicate all the aspects of real-life helmet/head impacts in cycling accidents. The question is whether the important aspects are replicated in experiments. That is a complex technical question, and requires referenced scientific evidence. Tim C ( talk) 23:43, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
Response by Colin at cycling: Thank you Tim for those details. Picking out the important points.
The figures I quote for helmet impacts are measured results for modern helmets, 5333 rad./sec2 and 13505 rad./sec2, 20000 rad./sec2.
"Assuming that the response of the unhelmeted head is similar to the helmeted head" This assumption is invalid, a bare head/hair coefficient of friction is about 0.15 (hair), helmets about 0.4. Reporting the StClair and Chinn assumption would be adding to their invalid approach.
“...the typical level of rotational acceleration observed using a helmeted headform would generally be no more injurious than expected for a bare human head"
Could be included but a note to say this is disputed, Cyclehelmets.org provides discussion of this issue. It takes no account of near misses for bare head that result in impacts for one helmeted.
“This omits the important detail that Williams evaluated helmets from crashes occurring between 1987 and 1989, with experiments on new helmets available in Australia in 1989, which is 24 years ago.”
Williams details the impact locations and this information is likely to be similar today, mainly to the sides and frontal temporal areas. 'In 1991 Williams in Australia', a simple change dates the article, but also the citation dates the article.
“Clarke 2007 compared possible impacts for helmeted” Velocity Munch 2007 included the paper, after reviewing. Clarke published ‘Safer Cycling 1995’ an 80 page technical booklet on safety issues and cycling. Restricting Wiki comments to selected groups?
The details provided added important information and intended as a NPOV but granted more information could have been added, but the length of the article is already long and trying to be concise was also a priority.
~~
Colin at cycling:~~ — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Colin at cycling (
talk •
contribs) 09:40, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
Tim C (talk) 20:57, 7 April 2013 (UTC) says
“Yes, material to be included in WP articles is restricted - see the WP policy at Wikipedia:Verifiability. As I said, the opinions of a cycling advocate presented at cycling conference do not constitute sufficient authority for a discussion of the biomechanics of head collisions in bicycle accidents. A paper in a peer-reviewed scientific journal on biomechanics or similar, or a conference paper by a recognised biomechanical researcher, is required to back up such assertions.”
Tim is referring to a published paper by Velocity cycling confernce Munich 2007, it considered the impacts that could occur for a helmeted profile compared to non-helmeted profile together with a range of helmet issues. ( http://www.nationaler-radverkehrsplan.de/eu-bund-laender/eu/velocity/presentations/velocity2007_pp_17c_long_public.pdf). The ECF and Velocity have review committees and scientists who consider cycling information before accepting it as suitable for publication and including in their program. The author of the report provides his email address in case any questions arise.
Accepting published reports from cycling conferences allows Wikipedia to provide much more information than would occur from a narrow selection from specialists, that is if they addressed a particular topic. Funding may not be available or other projects may have higher priorities. Bikesafe Conference Newcastle 1986 provided a range of useful report, various Velocity conferences provide very useful reports. Allowing a selection process by Tim or others to suit a particular point of view is not a progressive or fair approach. Tim or others are free to point to any weaknesses or errors in reports and this allows a suitable balance. ~~Colin at cycling~~ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Colin at cycling ( talk • contribs) 10:13, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
User:Colin at cycling added - Hillman stated, "they do not protect the head from rotational trauma which can seriously damage the brain and brain stem and which is quite common when cyclists are hit a glancing blow from a motor vehicle rather than in direct collision with it (McCarthy, 1992)".[78]
Reasons, Dr Hillman Senior Fellow Emerious and who wrote the MBA publication Cylcing Towards Health and Safety 1992 view are worthy of including as perhaps the most qualified person in the world on cycling and health aspects. The quote is from his considered report on cycle helmets. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Colin at cycling ( talk • contribs) 11:07, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
User:Harvey4931 has resurrected a large section of this Talk page that had been archived, but doesn't seem to have added anything to that discussion. Was this a mistake? Can it be archived again? All the past discussion is still available on the archive page for this Talk i.e. it is still readily accessible. Bringing back old discussions but then not adding anything is potentially very confusing. Tim C ( talk) 05:28, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
Currently there are two instances in this article in which self-published, anonymous web pages on the web site of an organisation called the Cyclists Rights Action Group (CRAG) are used as sources for statements and assertions in the article. I do not think that such web pages meet the WP policy requirements for reliable sources, and instead fall into the self-published category. In particular, the "About US" page of the CRAG web site states: "The Cyclists Rights Action Group (CRAG) was formed at a public meeting in Canberra, ACT, Australia, on 30th January 1992, in direct response to the introduction of Mandatory Helmet Laws (MHL) for bicyclists, with the aim of protecting cyclists against undue interference by Governments and erosion of civil liberties. The current aim of CRAG is to oppose legislation compelling cyclists to wear helmets." As such, it is impossible to consider CRAG or its web site as a reliable, unbiased source with a neutral point-of-view - the organisation has an explicit agenda and thus should not be used as a source for material in this WP article. I propose removal of the references and the statements and assertions which they are used to support. Tim C ( talk) 21:40, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
I have added a citation needed tag to the assertion that in SA law may not have been enforced immediately. As noted on Talk by Jake Olivier on 27 Feb 2013, this claim is not substantiated by any analysis or given a citation Linda.m.ward ( talk) 03:50, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
The Marshall and White study was cited as the source for a claim of a decrease in the number of people over 15 who cycled at least once a week, from 12.0 per 100 people to 10.4. I could not find these numbers in the Marshall and White study so have added a citation needed tag. Linda.m.ward ( talk) 12:28, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
I have tagged 2 occurences of a 250% increase in cycling in Sydney. The citation provided was Robinson's 1996 study, which in turn cited the Ausbike 92 proceedings, which mentioned an RTA report, but did not provide a citation. Linda.m.ward ( talk) 09:39, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
No reference has been cited for a claim of an increase in cycling from 300,000 to 400,000 between 1986 and 1989 in WA, so I have added a citation needed tag. Linda.m.ward ( talk) 11:40, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
Recent edits have left us with large numbers of claims, counter-claims and counter-counter claims that will leave most readers thoroughly confused. The details of these studies tell us little that is useful for an encyclopedic article, except that there is an ongoing debate.
This does not lead to a clear and informative Wikipedia article. The article has become much more confusing than it was two months ago. To re-balance the article, it might be useful to repeat what we did late last year:
We need to report on the fact of debates, and even very long lists of references may be useful as further reading, but we need to outline the main points of debate rather than rehearse every detail of every argument. Harvey4931 ( talk) 23:28, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
I think the key is to agree on same basic guidelines in order to neaten it up. If we can establish an agreed set of rules that all future edits adhere to then there's no reason why we can't maintain the Neutral POV which this article now has (and hasn't enjoyed for a long time) while making the article less intimidating to a first time reader. Both sides of the debate need to accept that this page is never going to become a propaganda page for their own way of thinking and trust that a neutral presentation of the research relating to the issue will back up their side without their own need to editorialise and censor. Dsnmi ( talk) 00:50, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but I am totally opposed to any reversion to an earlier version. A lot of effort has gone into this article over the last few months, both in bringing a much more NPOV to it by reflecting all POVs with a better balance, removal of editorialising, and in being much more comprehensive in its reference to the scientific literature (and lots of tidying up of poorly formatted and incomplete references, redundant references etc). The reality is that there is evidence published in reliable sources (scientific journals etc) that helmets protect the head and brain, aren't dangerous and that helmet laws increase helmet wearing and decrease head injuries. The fact that evidence exists must be reflected in the article in the same way that the work of Dorothy Robinson and Bill Curnow is reflected in the article. If some of the scientific literature which is relevant to this article is discussed, then all of it must be discussed in order to maintain a NPOV. Yes, that makes for a rather unencyclopaedic article, difficult, tedious and probably somewhat confusing to read. But NPOV trumps encyclopaedic in WP, I'm afraid. I am in favour of judicious restructuring of the article (discuss in Talk first!) in order to make it read better, and for greater use of footnotes in a balanced and NPOV manner. But hoping for a nice concise summary article is a pipe dream, simply because the range of views of what constitutes "the truth" are so different. What may seem like a fair summary to one person is a totally-biased bunch of misinformation to another. Tim C ( talk) 00:05, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
Some contributors have missed the key issue: an encyclopedia is written for the benefit of readers, by providing a clear, concise, neutral and informative article. However, some helmet advocates seem to place promoting their points of view above that objective.
Helmet advocates seem too eager to quote studies that reinforces their beliefs, without considering the objectivity of the study quoted. For example, studies have been quoted, without disclosing that they were funded by a party with a conflict of interest. Those studies typically use flawed methodologies, resulting in misleading claims not supported by the underlying data. This inevitably leads others to fill in the gaps, pointing out flaws in the study. The resulting set of claims and counterclaims interests few people except avid helmet advocates keen to promote their point of view. The claim that this article has become more neutral after adding misleading studies is incorrect.
Helmet advocates mean well, however their misleading claims and the inevitable rebuttals do not belong in an encyclopedia. We could spend the next few years counter claiming and arguing about misleading claims, or we could revert to an earlier version of the article that is not loaded with misleading claims.
The bottom line is that Wikipedia is not an advocacy platform for people's causes. There are other outlets more appropriate for that. Harvey4931 ( talk) 23:45, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
User:Dsnmi: The edits I made followed a long discussion on the talk page of Bicycle Helmets as I stated in the editing comment - start at the topic "Ding-dong over describing authors" which continues as "Attribution of articles published by the Bicycle Helmet Research Foundation (BHRF) in this article". Apologies I thought the reference to the topic on the other page would be sufficient for anyone to follow and there was no need to repeat it all here. Many of the same editors of that page have edited this page and some of the same inappropriate attributions - clear violations of normal practice and Wikipedia guidelines - have been added here (not necessarily by the same editors of course). In making the edit I came across a number of structure errors in references (you can see the error messages inserted by Wikipedia in the article) and fixed then, your undo has also put all those errors back. Note that the same cleanup (though there was much less to do) has been done on Bicycle helmets in New Zealand. Kiwikiped ( talk) 09:40, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
I watched as one POV added Dihn's recent Letter to the Editor, followed by the other POV adding balancing material (from their POV), etc. yet nobody mentioned it was actually a Letter to the Editor, not a peer-reviewed published study... Am I wrong, are Letters to the MJA peer-reviewed? And then one side edited a reference adding during this time to make it clear it was a Letter, yet still restraint from the other size and Dihn's remains a "study" with the clear implication it is a peer-review publication in the MJA. Maybe I am wrong, but as far as I can see the Dihn reference is just a letter. Frankly I think this article is going (or has gone) the way of the main Bicycle Helmets one - far too long and unreadable - and all the stuff added by both POV's around the Dihn Letter could just go and the article would probably be better. However as a compromise I announce my intention to go in and make sure it is clear this is a Letter to the Editor, pending the response to this Talk item - unless of course whoever added (I can't remember) it would like to do that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kiwikiped ( talk • contribs) 03:51, 26 May 2013 (UTC)
User:Drmies has deleted some material from the section "Health implications of bicycle helmets legislation", with the edit note of "none of this content pertains to the content. if you wish to argue that helmet laws lead to more bicycle use and thus more health--well, that's probably OR [original research])"
This post to Talk is not to take issue with the edit made - it is a useful pruning of the article, in my view. Rather it is just to note that I don't think any researcher or anyone else has ever suggested that bicycle helmet laws lead to more bicycle use. There is quite a lot of contention over whether bicycle helmet laws reduce cycling levels long-term, and if so, by how much, and the degree of any short- or long-term effects on various age groups etc. Unfortunately the available data on these questions is far from conclusive either way and the real picture is probably quite complex, and almost certainly varies from country to country. Related questions are: if helmet laws and/or helmet promotion do in fact reduce cycling, is the reduction in health (remembering that cycling is not the only form of exercise possible) significant and does it outweigh benefits due to reduced head injuries etc? Almost every aspect of these questions is contended, and for some aspects, there is a complete lack of research at the moment. Tim C ( talk) 02:08, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
I've just removed a lot of content from the History section. This entire article needs to be trimmed by about 80-90% and probably merged with another article. In its present state, it is absolutely ridiculous content for an encyclopaedia: far too detailed, and in particular far too reliant on contested studies and indeed studies, period. If people want to have an in-depth about the merits or otherwise of various studies and pieces of legislation then please go do it somewhere else. - Sitush ( talk) 13:02, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
Since you are familiar with the article subject and seem to accept that it has excessive detail, perhaps you could start to remove it? Be bold. - Sitush ( talk) 08:32, 1 June 2013 (UTC)
Can someone please give me the page numbers from the Robinson study that have caused us to write Before the law was enforced in Queensland, bicycle travel represented about 2.3% of total vehicle kilometres; after the helmet law was enforced in 1993, bicycle offence notices increased to 7.9% of traffic offence notices, implying that per kilometre, bicycle offence notices were about four times higher than all other traffic offences put together - speeding, drink-driving, not wearing seatbelts, careless driving or riding, etc. It is 13 pages of pretty dense statistics but at first glance what I am seeing is someone drawing their own conclusions from a source. - Sitush ( talk) 18:11, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
The first paragraph of the section titled Bicycle_helmets_in_Australia#Surveys_of_helmet_use_and_cycling_participation_before_and_after_the_introduction_of_helmet_laws seems to be a waste of space. Some guys conducted a study, came up with some numbers and said that there was a statistical problem because of a rally that was taking place but that excluding the rally element from the results would itself create a statistical problem (presumably, one related to size of the poopulation, chi-square tests etc). The figures that we show are for 1991 but at the end of the paragraph we show a re-analysis of that study, done by someone else and excluding the very thing that the original researchers said could not be excluded for statistical reasons. The figure given there is for 1992. So, we are comparing chalk and cheese (different years) and we are also getting involved in an academic argument regarding statistical viability. If the figures are not viable then we should not be showing them at all. The gist of it all seems to be that the number of cyclists in this small-scale study fell by maybe 27% or maybe a bit more, so surely it is acceptable for us to cut that entire paragraph, replacing with something like Analysis of data collected over the years 1990-1992 in Melbourne suggests that the number of cyclists fell by somewhere between 27% and XX%., where XX is whatever Finch's 1992 figure may be. We don't need all the numbers that are presently shown. - Sitush ( talk) 18:34, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
On 31 May a number of changes were made, mainly deletions. The process seems inappropriate in that to undue would probably require some time.
![]() | This article may contain an excessive amount of intricate detail that may interest only a particular audience. |
~~Colin at cycling~~
My understanding via a recent report at WP:ANI is that this article may also be subject to conflicts of interest etc - it might be best if the regular contributors at least declare their position if there is any possibility of a COI. To that end, I will say that I am a Brit, have never been to Australia and, although I once cycled extensively and thoroughly enjoyed it, I'm long since past even being able to get on a bike - too many screws, plates and pins in my leg (due to a non-cycling incident). - Sitush ( talk) 00:38, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
I have been reverted here. We say that Robinson criticised something because it ignored similar trends found in pedestrians. The figures that have been reinstated are unnecessary stats: they add nothing to the statement that is of significance.
Look,folks, we really, really need to make this article more accessible and it is not being helped by throwing all these stats around. I get the impression that a fair few of the major contributors are professional statisticians etc and they may be unaware of just how daunting it is for the average reader to comprehend such a mass of figures. - Sitush ( talk) 11:44, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
User:Dorre made a statement about her conflicts of interest at Talk:Bicycle_helmet/Archive_4#Conflicts_of_interest. Tim C ( talk) 00:01, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
As an aside to the initial point of this thread, Dorre and Richard Keatinge both seem to agree that there are too many stats. Why not do something about it, then? I realise that one of you (Richard) and probably both have conflicts of interest here but you could at least explain exactly which stats you mean and propose changes here. - Sitush ( talk) 15:44, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
Richard's declaration that he "[does not] have any conflict of interest at all" notwithstanding, other editors do need to be aware that User:Richard Keatinge is one of two listed Directors of the Bicycle Helmets Research Foundation (BHRF) (see http://www.companieslist.co.uk/04864151-the-bicycle-helmet-research-foundation ) and is listed as being on its Editorial Board. Previous WP discussion of the BHRF can be found at Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_146#Bicycle_Helmet_Research_Foundation. Tim C ( talk) 22:10, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
The site gives readers an insight into the problems, claims were made of a 70% reduction but 3 years later in the Monash report they claimed they could not tell if the reductions were due to less cycling or helmets and by 2013 Vic roads claim a reduction of 23%. Including info on pedestrians helps readers to appreciate the level of changes occurring. The primary purpose is to reflect information, if easy to read great, but the detail is important. Bearing in mind if the reduction of 23% is lower than the reduction in cycling activity, the risk per person increases. The information provided reflects various reports and provides a sort of balance. To evaluate them on wiki appears to be heading for original research. Colin at cycling ( talk) 20:11, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
That sensational title is one way of summarizing the changes to this (and the bicycle helmets) page over the past several months. So much detail has been added that it's impossible to see the wood for the trees. Most casual readers are not interested in what happened in individual states, or cities within individual states, but the effect on the whole country. However, it's very difficult for a single editor to delete this additional material without being accused of vandalism. Consider, for example the long and detailed description of the weather in the Melbourne survey where 2011 cyclists were counted in 1991:
Most people would agree that there's not a great deal of difference between 27% and 36%, and that the detailed description of the weather isn't too important because the pre-law weather was about the same as the average for the 2 post-law years (slightly better in 92, slightly worse in 91). So why all the complicated detail? A cynic would say that it's to hide the relevant information about numbers counted and helmet wearing. Pre-law, 1293 teenagers were counted, of which 272 wore helmets. A year later, 670 teenagers were counted, of which 302 wore helmets. The insightful comparison of the drop in teenage cycling (632 fewer teenage cycling) with the the increase of 30 in the number of teenagers wearing helmets gets lost because of the long and detailed discussion of the weather.
The small numbers observed in these surveys contrasts with the 100,000 people cycling to work on census day in 2011. Cycling is seasonal, so surveys taken at the same time of year generally have the same weather and are comparable. Comparing the results of surveys taken at different times of year (e.g. the pre and post-law survey of adults in NSW) is generally a lot less reliable.
The graphs of the census data is important because provides a reasonably consistent series from 1976 to 2011 for the whole country, illustrating the difference between trends unrelated to helmet wearing and the effect of helmet laws. This simply cannot be put into words.
This article's problems were compounded by the addition of new sections that effectively duplicated existing ones. For example,'Surveys of helmet use and cycling participation', effectively repeats (with many additional details to) the information that was in an existing section 'Bicycle usage: changes without concurrent control groups around the time of helmet compulsion'. Such edits added to the repetition, making the article longer and unreadable. The last time the article was pruned, there was consensus on the talk page to go back to the version as at Nov 28, 2012. Because the current article is so confusing and difficult to read, anyone who wants to prune it should consider reading that version and then see what additional material is relevant and informative. This might provide sufficient insight to help distinguish the wood from the trees.
Dorre (
talk) 22:27, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
I have great difficulty with edits that make exaggerated claims about the benefits of helmet laws. Although, as a member of the editorial board of the BHRF, some people might consider I have a conflict of interest, the data on head and non-head injuries shown on the BHRF website
Head and non-head injuries over time is not consistent with the quote added by Tim:
"A 1995 study by Carr et al. found that cyclist admissions to hospitals in Victoria in the first four years after helmet legislation was introduced were 40% below the number expected on the basis of pre-legislation trends, and that the severity of cyclist head injury had also declined subsequent to the helmet legislation.[18]"
Some balance is necessary. Tim didn't like my direct quote from the report stating the fall in head injuries, but indicating that some of the reduction might be due to reduced cycling. Does anyone therefore have a problem with a counterbalancing direct quote from the BHRF web page noting that "Both head and non-head injuries fell substantially"?
Dorre (
talk) 10:17, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
If someone wants to include a graph here then it must involve precisely zero original research, be in focus and ideally not have been created by anyone who has a stake in the academic dispute. Indeed, we may be entering the realms of WP:MEDRS and might not even be in a position where we can invite people to draw a conclusion, as you have invited me to do above. My suspicion is that, as some people said around the time of the ANI report, this article has no real reason for existing because the content that matters can be dealt with via a merge with an article about helmet legislation worldwide. - Sitush ( talk) 16:45, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
Perhaps we should list all areas and consider where general agreement exists. Basically the topic runs for 30+ years, 1980 - 2013, many reports can be accessed. What to include, built up to legislation, did Governments act properly, has legislation provided a benefit to Australia, effects on individuals, reporting the evidence etc. Reporting areas of scientific debate would help readers to appreciate why debate occurs. If the article ends up being long and slightly complicated in a few parts but accurate, reliable and balanced this may provide the best approach for understanding the topic. "removing all of the scientific debate" may not be a good objective, "this article has no real reason for existing because the content that matters can be dealt with via a merge with an article about helmet legislation worldwide" many country seems to vary their approach to helmets or legislation and trying to include all the details into one report may mean missing out important information. Colin at cycling ( talk) 18:38, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
Road safety, cycling levels, enforcement approaches, cultural aspects all vary with countries. Even within a country variation in both type of enforcement or just promotion occurs. Readers may end up not knowing which country or part of that country is being discussed. Many wiki contributions could also occur and trying to have one article and explain each aspect to both readers and people contributing may be vary time consuming.
I think we have different points of view. I have some concerns that a useful balance is being missed. The risk level of cycling v helmet effects. The 1991 article by Ron Shepard provided details of the relative risk, Ron had given evidence to government in 1986. Robinson's 1996 paper provided data on risk per million hours. The issue of wearing protection is about risk v effects. Ron Shepard's article was removed and this would not help readers. The article probably fails to adequately balance risk against effects, to help readers have a good understanding. Colin at cycling ( talk) 16:25, 11 June 2013 (UTC)