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Took baseline/inspiration from a user sandbox who may have copied it from a copyrighted source, so it definitely needed changing and footnoting before re-inserting. It is vastly changed from when it first appeared.
Having said that, this information has been known since it was written roughly 2000 years ago. So the sources all say about the same thing. In some cases (Revelation, for example), there isn't much to say unless the reader believes in the literal translation, which is fine, but not what this article documents. Student7 ( talk) 19:03, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
Ian.thomson ( talk) 16:15, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
I added... The number Forty is a recurring Bible theme with it first appearing in Genesis 7:4, "For in seven days it will rain for forty days and forty nights". Moses did the #40 several times: he was 40-years-old when he was exiled from Egypt, he returned 40 years later to lead the Hebrews out of captivity, 40 days atop Mount Sinai, 40 years of the Hebrews wandering in the dessert, etc. Goliath challenged the Israelites for 40 days before David killed him and King David ruled for 40 years. Jesus was tempted by Satan in the desert for 40 days. 40 hours after Jesus was taken down from the Cross, he appeared outside the tomb of Joseph of Arimathea to Mary Magdalen. Jesus hung out in Jerusalem and Galilee for 40 days before leaving for ---. 73.85.202.197 ( talk) 16:38, 6 June 2020 (UTC)
What is meaning of 40. And what citation supports that meaning? Same with 13. Bile only Student7 ( talk) 19:42, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
No consensus to move. After much-extended time for discussion, there is no consensus for a move at this time. To the extent that this discussion addresses issues beyond the title issue, that discussion should be continued in an appropriate forum. BD2412 T 03:38, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
This article is named "Biblical numerology" which seems to imply that the article's content should be limited to just the bible (and perhaps exegesis). But this seems like it could perhaps result in a slippery slope with regard to stuff only implicitly mentioned in the bible. Take the seven sacraments, for example. (It's listed as a bullet point under section "7".) As a Catholic, I would say that these are in fact "biblical". But I acknowledge that nowhere in the bible does it give a listing of the sacraments, or even say that there are exactly seven. The listing of seven (no more, no less) comes from extra-biblical tradition, not from the bible.
But then where do we draw the line? Take the Holy Triduum, for example. (It's listed under section "3".) The Holy Triduum is a liturgical celebration, not something found in the bible. (The events that it's modelled after are found in the bible, but the Triduum itself is not.) So should it be listed?
Then there is also the stuff about "ten fingers and ten toes", "twelve lunar months", etc. This might help to draw connections, but it's not the least bit "biblical".
I am not saying these things should be removed. I do think it's perfectly appropriate (especially the stuff concerning extrabiblical tradition and liturgy). But I am just wondering if maybe the article's name should be changed to "Christian numerology" or "Significance of numbers in Christianity"? I'm opening a name change request below. 2601:49:C301:D810:60D6:3777:B8C0:7F2D ( talk) 15:57, 22 December 2020 (UTC) —Relisting. Jack Frost ( talk) 13:16, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
Below I am storing some information which I do not believe is worth including in the page but I do not want to outright delete.
According to the two censuses taken in Numbers 1 and 26, there were approximately 600,000 adult men alone who left Egypt to Israel. These totals are given as the cumulative whole of the number of adult men in each of the twelve tribes of Israel. These values have widely been seen as literary and unreflective of historical reality. In addition, Heinzerling has pointed to "statistical peculiarities" in the census lists which shows that the number of adult men in each of the twelve tribes do not reflect real population statistics or random numbers but in fact carefully chosen literary values. For one, in the first census list, the tribe of Ephraim numbers 40,500 individuals. In the second census list, it is the tribe of Gad which numbers 40,500 individuals. In the first census list, the tribe of Naphtali numbers 53,400 individuals. In the second census list, it is the tribe of Asher which numbers 53,400 individuals. In addition, there appear to be numerical doublets across these numbers between the two census lists: 40500/60500 (Ephraim/Zebulun), 32200/22200 (Manasseh/Simeon), 62700/52700 (Dan/Manasseh), 54400/64400 (Issacher/Dan), 35400/45400 (Benjamin/Naphtali), 46500/76500 (Reuben/Judah). [1]
First Census | Count | Second Census | Count |
---|---|---|---|
1. Reuben (cf. 4) | 46,500 | 1. Reuben | 43,730 |
2. Simeon | 59,300 | 2. Simeon | 22,200 |
3. Gad | 45,650 | 3. Gad | 40,500 |
4. Judah | 74,600 | 4. Judah | 76,500 |
5. Issachar (cf. 10) | 54,400 | 5. Issachar | 64,300 |
6. Zebulun | 57,400 | 6. Zebulun | 60,500 |
7. Ephraim (cf. 3., 6.) | 40,500 | 7. Ephraim | 32,500 |
8. Manasseh (cf. 2) | 32,200 | 8. Manasseh | 52,700 |
9. Benjamin (cf. 12) | 35,400 | 9. Benjamin | 45,600 |
10. Dan (cf. 8) | 62,700 | 10. Dan | 64,400 |
11. Asher | 41,500 | 11. Asher | 53,400 |
12. Naphtali (cf. 11) | 53,400 | 12. Naphtali | 45,400 |
Heinzerling's theories are considered speculative and complicated by many scholars which therefore raises the question as to whether such complex usages of numbers were being made by the authors of the census texts.
Editshmedt ( talk) 07:34, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
References
I propose merging Numerology and the Church Fathers into Biblical numerology. The former is fairly brief and discusses historical attitudes of the Catholic Church towards biblical numerology; I think it could be comfortably incorporated into the latter. — Moriwen ( talk) 15:00, 16 June 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Took baseline/inspiration from a user sandbox who may have copied it from a copyrighted source, so it definitely needed changing and footnoting before re-inserting. It is vastly changed from when it first appeared.
Having said that, this information has been known since it was written roughly 2000 years ago. So the sources all say about the same thing. In some cases (Revelation, for example), there isn't much to say unless the reader believes in the literal translation, which is fine, but not what this article documents. Student7 ( talk) 19:03, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
Ian.thomson ( talk) 16:15, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
I added... The number Forty is a recurring Bible theme with it first appearing in Genesis 7:4, "For in seven days it will rain for forty days and forty nights". Moses did the #40 several times: he was 40-years-old when he was exiled from Egypt, he returned 40 years later to lead the Hebrews out of captivity, 40 days atop Mount Sinai, 40 years of the Hebrews wandering in the dessert, etc. Goliath challenged the Israelites for 40 days before David killed him and King David ruled for 40 years. Jesus was tempted by Satan in the desert for 40 days. 40 hours after Jesus was taken down from the Cross, he appeared outside the tomb of Joseph of Arimathea to Mary Magdalen. Jesus hung out in Jerusalem and Galilee for 40 days before leaving for ---. 73.85.202.197 ( talk) 16:38, 6 June 2020 (UTC)
What is meaning of 40. And what citation supports that meaning? Same with 13. Bile only Student7 ( talk) 19:42, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
No consensus to move. After much-extended time for discussion, there is no consensus for a move at this time. To the extent that this discussion addresses issues beyond the title issue, that discussion should be continued in an appropriate forum. BD2412 T 03:38, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
This article is named "Biblical numerology" which seems to imply that the article's content should be limited to just the bible (and perhaps exegesis). But this seems like it could perhaps result in a slippery slope with regard to stuff only implicitly mentioned in the bible. Take the seven sacraments, for example. (It's listed as a bullet point under section "7".) As a Catholic, I would say that these are in fact "biblical". But I acknowledge that nowhere in the bible does it give a listing of the sacraments, or even say that there are exactly seven. The listing of seven (no more, no less) comes from extra-biblical tradition, not from the bible.
But then where do we draw the line? Take the Holy Triduum, for example. (It's listed under section "3".) The Holy Triduum is a liturgical celebration, not something found in the bible. (The events that it's modelled after are found in the bible, but the Triduum itself is not.) So should it be listed?
Then there is also the stuff about "ten fingers and ten toes", "twelve lunar months", etc. This might help to draw connections, but it's not the least bit "biblical".
I am not saying these things should be removed. I do think it's perfectly appropriate (especially the stuff concerning extrabiblical tradition and liturgy). But I am just wondering if maybe the article's name should be changed to "Christian numerology" or "Significance of numbers in Christianity"? I'm opening a name change request below. 2601:49:C301:D810:60D6:3777:B8C0:7F2D ( talk) 15:57, 22 December 2020 (UTC) —Relisting. Jack Frost ( talk) 13:16, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
Below I am storing some information which I do not believe is worth including in the page but I do not want to outright delete.
According to the two censuses taken in Numbers 1 and 26, there were approximately 600,000 adult men alone who left Egypt to Israel. These totals are given as the cumulative whole of the number of adult men in each of the twelve tribes of Israel. These values have widely been seen as literary and unreflective of historical reality. In addition, Heinzerling has pointed to "statistical peculiarities" in the census lists which shows that the number of adult men in each of the twelve tribes do not reflect real population statistics or random numbers but in fact carefully chosen literary values. For one, in the first census list, the tribe of Ephraim numbers 40,500 individuals. In the second census list, it is the tribe of Gad which numbers 40,500 individuals. In the first census list, the tribe of Naphtali numbers 53,400 individuals. In the second census list, it is the tribe of Asher which numbers 53,400 individuals. In addition, there appear to be numerical doublets across these numbers between the two census lists: 40500/60500 (Ephraim/Zebulun), 32200/22200 (Manasseh/Simeon), 62700/52700 (Dan/Manasseh), 54400/64400 (Issacher/Dan), 35400/45400 (Benjamin/Naphtali), 46500/76500 (Reuben/Judah). [1]
First Census | Count | Second Census | Count |
---|---|---|---|
1. Reuben (cf. 4) | 46,500 | 1. Reuben | 43,730 |
2. Simeon | 59,300 | 2. Simeon | 22,200 |
3. Gad | 45,650 | 3. Gad | 40,500 |
4. Judah | 74,600 | 4. Judah | 76,500 |
5. Issachar (cf. 10) | 54,400 | 5. Issachar | 64,300 |
6. Zebulun | 57,400 | 6. Zebulun | 60,500 |
7. Ephraim (cf. 3., 6.) | 40,500 | 7. Ephraim | 32,500 |
8. Manasseh (cf. 2) | 32,200 | 8. Manasseh | 52,700 |
9. Benjamin (cf. 12) | 35,400 | 9. Benjamin | 45,600 |
10. Dan (cf. 8) | 62,700 | 10. Dan | 64,400 |
11. Asher | 41,500 | 11. Asher | 53,400 |
12. Naphtali (cf. 11) | 53,400 | 12. Naphtali | 45,400 |
Heinzerling's theories are considered speculative and complicated by many scholars which therefore raises the question as to whether such complex usages of numbers were being made by the authors of the census texts.
Editshmedt ( talk) 07:34, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
References
I propose merging Numerology and the Church Fathers into Biblical numerology. The former is fairly brief and discusses historical attitudes of the Catholic Church towards biblical numerology; I think it could be comfortably incorporated into the latter. — Moriwen ( talk) 15:00, 16 June 2023 (UTC)