Between You & Me (Betty Who song) is within the scope of WikiProject Australia, which aims to improve Wikipedia's coverage of
Australia and
Australia-related topics. If you would like to participate, visit the
project page.AustraliaWikipedia:WikiProject AustraliaTemplate:WikiProject AustraliaAustralia articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Pop music, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles related to
pop music on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Pop musicWikipedia:WikiProject Pop musicTemplate:WikiProject Pop musicPop music articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Songs, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
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This article is of interest to WikiProject LGBT studies, which tries to ensure comprehensive and factual coverage of all
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project page or contribute to the
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This article is within the scope of WikiProject Women in Music, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
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Starting the review
I will add my comments per criterion as I go along but reserve the right to return to earlier criteria until the review is finished. This may take a few days (hopefully not more than a week).
shaidar cuebiyar (
talk)
07:16, 18 July 2019 (UTC)reply
Reduce overuse of terms: Who, song, (these may also be overused in other sections)
Show songwriters' actual names. Give their performance names or aliases in brackets, link to subject's article per most commonly used name. By the way, I doubt this blog source is reliable for song writing information.
would not complete > did not complete Past tense.
Remove 2nd feelings from sentence starting with Who drew inspiration...
In the sentence starting with A fan of the television... should who be capitalised?
Reduce overuse of terms: Who, song, "Between You & Me", (these may also be overused in other sections)
Check capitalisations of Who.
Why wikilink sophomore album to sophomore slump? By the way, "sophomore", is a particularly North American term, you should consider "second" as being more universal for general wikipedia readers.
Is Who contradicting herself? Consider, "... Who drew similarities between the song and 'Just Thought You Should Know', another track ...", compared with "... There isn't anything else on the record that is quite like [it]..." Some clarification is required.
I don't see it as contradictory. Who says that Just Thought You Should Know is similar thematically, but when she was saying "There isn't anything else on the record that is quite like [it]" she was referring to the acoustic arrangement/production.--
Changedforbetter (
talk)
17:48, 19 July 2019 (UTC)reply
De-link common terms. Reduce overuse of terms. Check apostrophes, e.g. Who’s vocals > Who's vocals. Check quote marks, e.g. if you do too”. > if you do too." Check these in other sections.
Delete in duration as redundant.
Delete sentence starting with Who's online store as biased and unreliable.
Consider ''[[Notion (magazine)|Notion]]'' deemed itNotion is a magazine, it can't deem anything. Try ''[[Notion (magazine)|Notion]]''{{'}}s staff writer(s) deemed it
it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with
the layout style guideline;
reliable sources are
cited inline. All content that
could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose);
References
I will be checking all the references and each comment below is under their number as they existed at
this time. The order may change from this numbering as refs get moved, added or deleted. Preliminary comment: all refs including newspapers should have a publisher or website/work. Newspapers and other works are generally italicised but publishers are not. Check titles for title case and formatting. Check for author(s) names. Use mdy dates for date, archive date and retrieved date.
shaidar cuebiyar (
talk)
02:01, 19 July 2019 (UTC)03:51, 19 July 2019 (UTC)reply
Fix last = Aliaga and first = Jon. Fix title, e.g. with.
How is this blog a reliable source for song writers? You need a better authority, e.g.
ASCAP or
APRA, especially for actual name
cf. performance name(s).
Fix title. by and Betty. Fix & wikilink work. [[Clash (magazine)|Clash]] Add editor = Simon Harper It seems the content was written by Who, "Betty Who kindly penned a full Track by Track guide for Clash readers, and she told us: Making Betty has been one of the greatest experiences of my life." In which case add values for last = and first = and authorlink =. Content verified (and correctly attributed to Who in main text).
Fix website. Euphoria. Content verified.
Fix title. Wikilink work. Quotes starting with Getting a little closer to comes from the other Spanos' article (currently at ref [17]) not from the one at [8]. Content at c or at g is not verified. Don't see "plucky" here.
shaidar cuebiyar (
talk)
10:54, 19 July 2019 (UTC)reply
Fix title. Fix apostrophe in the inner quote. Content verified.
Fix title. Add last = staff writer, editor = Silke K Bader. Wikilink website = [[Lesbians on the Loose|LOTL]]
. Content verified.
Wikilink work. In main text italicise it. At second mention, in main text, just use Williams (not whole name again). Content verified.
Fix title. Wikilink work. Content verified.
Okay.
Does not mention Spotify. The 500,000 may be an accumulative total of various streaming services. Furthermore, this source incorrectly calls the album, I Remember; while its next single, "Nobody Loves Me Like You Do", is about to be released. Content not verified.
Even though many sources are cited some say almost exactly the same as each other: this suggests those references are citing Press Release(s) (or some other common source) and hence are not independent.
Review is on hold pending editors improving article according to instructions above. I will wait seven days to determine if sufficient work has been made.
shaidar cuebiyar (
talk)
04:48, 20 July 2019 (UTC)reply
Note: p.k.a. should be in an abbr template so that the hover function spells it out for users who don't know what the initials stand for. Check wikicode above to see how its done.
Overuse of terms: Who (12×), song (9×) in Background and writing, I didn't check other sections but they still have too many overused terms.
This entire section is literally about the process of Who writing the song; multiple mentions of both her name and the word "song" are to be expected throughout the article, no? It would be like trying to write an article about a formula Albert Einstein developed, but not being able to use the terms "Einstein" or "formula". I'll make another pass, but I'm not sure how this can be avoided.--
Changedforbetter (
talk)
02:52, 21 July 2019 (UTC)reply
All or nothing? I asked for the terms to be reduced: not totally eliminated. I find it wearying to have so many mentions of these terms: find further alternatives and make the article easier to read.
shaidar cuebiyar (
talk)
10:09, 22 July 2019 (UTC)reply
In Release
You have "Who and the producers had". Shouldn't this be singular?
Current refs (using
this version) not formatted properly &/or wikilinks not provided: [1], [2], [5], [7], [10]... (too many more). Check them all again.
Consider
WP:MoS and information at
title case. Specifically, place single quote marks for song titles inside quotations/titles of articles: e.g. at [2] use title = 'Between You & Me' Title case: e.g. at [7]: title = Track by Track: Betty Who on ''Betty''shaidar cuebiyar (
talk)
10:09, 22 July 2019 (UTC)reply
I can't access Spotify desktop app and so can't check this information. In any case, Peter Thomas is Peter Walsh, Zak Waters/Pretty Sister is Zakariah Stucchi.
shaidar cuebiyar (
talk)
23:33, 20 July 2019 (UTC)reply
I've removed the blog link. You claim that Peter Thomas and Zak Waters' real names are Peter Walsh and Zakariah Stucchi, respectively, but this isn't cited in Walsh's Wikipedia article, nor in the Spotify credits.--
Changedforbetter (
talk)
21:45, 22 July 2019 (UTC)reply
Of course I know Wikipedia is not a reliable source; I was just suggesting that wouldn't someone have already mentioned Waters' alleged "full name" in his Wikipedia biography if it were verifiable? I would just cite the album's liner notes, but you'd probably say that's not a good source either because you can't access it. Information for the song is not available on ASCAP or APRA – I've already checked – probably because it's an independent release. However, I've added three additional sources: Shazam, Deezer (which you require a subscription to access) and Ultratop; each source cites their names as Peter Thomas and Zak Waters. Awaiting final verdict, as per my message at the bottom of this page.--
Changedforbetter (
talk)
15:11, 23 July 2019 (UTC)shaidar cuebiyarreply
The use of four references for the song's writers is not required. None is as authoratative as ASCAP or APRA but it seems your checking there did not get the same outcome. Consider: <ref name="ASCAP Between">{{cite web | url = https://www.ascap.com/repertory#ace/search/workID/895968697 | title = ACE Repertory – Work ID 895968697 | publisher = [[American Society of Composers, Authors and Publishers]] (ASCAP) | accessdate = 25 July 2019 }}</ref> and <ref name="APRA Between">{{cite web | publisher = [[Australasian Performing Right Association]] (APRA) | [[Australasian Mechanical Copyright Owners Society]] (AMCOS) | title = 'Between You and Me' at APRA search engine | url = http://apraamcos.com.au/search?searchtype=works&keywords=between+you+and+me | accessdate = 25 July 2019 }} Note: For additional work user may have to select 'Search again' and then 'Enter a title:' &/or 'Performer:'</ref> The former gives Zakariah Dane Stucchi and Peter Thomas, the latter gives Z Stucchi and P Walsh respectively. If you explore ASCAP's ACE Repertory you'll find Peter Thomas Walsh (search under writer) is the full name of Peter Thomas. He is the sole writer of
Anton Hagman's "Running in the Dark".
shaidar cuebiyar (
talk)
13:26, 25 July 2019 (UTC)reply
Thank you for your patience and help finding this information; it appears as though I was overlooking the "Include alternate titles" option on ASCAP. I've added both references in addition to Shazam and, since Thomas seems to alternate between Thomas and Thomas Walsh, I'm referring to him as "Thomas Walsh" throughout the article. Awaiting verdict.--
Changedforbetter (
talk)
14:44, 25 July 2019 (UTC)Shaidar cuebiyarreply
Perhaps the website only requires you to register if you are trying to access from certain regions, since I have always been able to access the link without registering nor am I prompted to register, but I've added the warning.--
Changedforbetter (
talk)
03:24, 21 July 2019 (UTC)reply
A warning is still needed to make this wp accessible to a greater range of users.
Criterion 4:
Re: charting... Although not specifically referring to this song, PopMatters' Evan Sawdey has "She absolutely strikes you as the kind of artist who would've had a Top 40 single or two by this point." (see
here). Article should describe that it has not charted (whether that is a commercial failure is left to the readers to decide). How do you explain all the critical acclaim, high Spotify streaming (400,000 times in two weeks) and yet no charting anywhere?
Betty Who has experienced chart success, just not with this single. A song can be a critical success with decent online streams without impacting the charts, especially in the digital age. Unless I have a source clearly stating or alluding to the fact that the song has not charted, I don't think I can really reference its lack of chart success at all. But I have referenced the song being a streaming success.--
Changedforbetter (
talk)
03:30, 21 July 2019 (UTC)reply
All points addressed. References have been corrected and content has been shortened wherever possible, including limiting direct quotes and decreasing the repetition of certain words. In cases where the title of the source placed the album's title (Betty) in quotations, I've corrected it by italicizing. My source for the songwriters' credits does not cite Peter Thomas and Zak Waters as the names you've given. Awaiting verdict. --
Changedforbetter (
talk)
21:46, 22 July 2019 (UTC)Shaidar cuebiyarreply
Between You & Me (Betty Who song) is within the scope of WikiProject Australia, which aims to improve Wikipedia's coverage of
Australia and
Australia-related topics. If you would like to participate, visit the
project page.AustraliaWikipedia:WikiProject AustraliaTemplate:WikiProject AustraliaAustralia articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Pop music, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles related to
pop music on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Pop musicWikipedia:WikiProject Pop musicTemplate:WikiProject Pop musicPop music articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Songs, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
songs on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SongsWikipedia:WikiProject SongsTemplate:WikiProject Songssong articles
This article is of interest to WikiProject LGBT studies, which tries to ensure comprehensive and factual coverage of all
LGBT-related issues on Wikipedia. For more information, or to get involved, please visit the
project page or contribute to the
discussion.LGBT studiesWikipedia:WikiProject LGBT studiesTemplate:WikiProject LGBT studiesLGBT articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Women in Music, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Women in music on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Women in MusicWikipedia:WikiProject Women in MusicTemplate:WikiProject Women in MusicWomen in music articles
Starting the review
I will add my comments per criterion as I go along but reserve the right to return to earlier criteria until the review is finished. This may take a few days (hopefully not more than a week).
shaidar cuebiyar (
talk)
07:16, 18 July 2019 (UTC)reply
Reduce overuse of terms: Who, song, (these may also be overused in other sections)
Show songwriters' actual names. Give their performance names or aliases in brackets, link to subject's article per most commonly used name. By the way, I doubt this blog source is reliable for song writing information.
would not complete > did not complete Past tense.
Remove 2nd feelings from sentence starting with Who drew inspiration...
In the sentence starting with A fan of the television... should who be capitalised?
Reduce overuse of terms: Who, song, "Between You & Me", (these may also be overused in other sections)
Check capitalisations of Who.
Why wikilink sophomore album to sophomore slump? By the way, "sophomore", is a particularly North American term, you should consider "second" as being more universal for general wikipedia readers.
Is Who contradicting herself? Consider, "... Who drew similarities between the song and 'Just Thought You Should Know', another track ...", compared with "... There isn't anything else on the record that is quite like [it]..." Some clarification is required.
I don't see it as contradictory. Who says that Just Thought You Should Know is similar thematically, but when she was saying "There isn't anything else on the record that is quite like [it]" she was referring to the acoustic arrangement/production.--
Changedforbetter (
talk)
17:48, 19 July 2019 (UTC)reply
De-link common terms. Reduce overuse of terms. Check apostrophes, e.g. Who’s vocals > Who's vocals. Check quote marks, e.g. if you do too”. > if you do too." Check these in other sections.
Delete in duration as redundant.
Delete sentence starting with Who's online store as biased and unreliable.
Consider ''[[Notion (magazine)|Notion]]'' deemed itNotion is a magazine, it can't deem anything. Try ''[[Notion (magazine)|Notion]]''{{'}}s staff writer(s) deemed it
it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with
the layout style guideline;
reliable sources are
cited inline. All content that
could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose);
References
I will be checking all the references and each comment below is under their number as they existed at
this time. The order may change from this numbering as refs get moved, added or deleted. Preliminary comment: all refs including newspapers should have a publisher or website/work. Newspapers and other works are generally italicised but publishers are not. Check titles for title case and formatting. Check for author(s) names. Use mdy dates for date, archive date and retrieved date.
shaidar cuebiyar (
talk)
02:01, 19 July 2019 (UTC)03:51, 19 July 2019 (UTC)reply
Fix last = Aliaga and first = Jon. Fix title, e.g. with.
How is this blog a reliable source for song writers? You need a better authority, e.g.
ASCAP or
APRA, especially for actual name
cf. performance name(s).
Fix title. by and Betty. Fix & wikilink work. [[Clash (magazine)|Clash]] Add editor = Simon Harper It seems the content was written by Who, "Betty Who kindly penned a full Track by Track guide for Clash readers, and she told us: Making Betty has been one of the greatest experiences of my life." In which case add values for last = and first = and authorlink =. Content verified (and correctly attributed to Who in main text).
Fix website. Euphoria. Content verified.
Fix title. Wikilink work. Quotes starting with Getting a little closer to comes from the other Spanos' article (currently at ref [17]) not from the one at [8]. Content at c or at g is not verified. Don't see "plucky" here.
shaidar cuebiyar (
talk)
10:54, 19 July 2019 (UTC)reply
Fix title. Fix apostrophe in the inner quote. Content verified.
Fix title. Add last = staff writer, editor = Silke K Bader. Wikilink website = [[Lesbians on the Loose|LOTL]]
. Content verified.
Wikilink work. In main text italicise it. At second mention, in main text, just use Williams (not whole name again). Content verified.
Fix title. Wikilink work. Content verified.
Okay.
Does not mention Spotify. The 500,000 may be an accumulative total of various streaming services. Furthermore, this source incorrectly calls the album, I Remember; while its next single, "Nobody Loves Me Like You Do", is about to be released. Content not verified.
Even though many sources are cited some say almost exactly the same as each other: this suggests those references are citing Press Release(s) (or some other common source) and hence are not independent.
Review is on hold pending editors improving article according to instructions above. I will wait seven days to determine if sufficient work has been made.
shaidar cuebiyar (
talk)
04:48, 20 July 2019 (UTC)reply
Note: p.k.a. should be in an abbr template so that the hover function spells it out for users who don't know what the initials stand for. Check wikicode above to see how its done.
Overuse of terms: Who (12×), song (9×) in Background and writing, I didn't check other sections but they still have too many overused terms.
This entire section is literally about the process of Who writing the song; multiple mentions of both her name and the word "song" are to be expected throughout the article, no? It would be like trying to write an article about a formula Albert Einstein developed, but not being able to use the terms "Einstein" or "formula". I'll make another pass, but I'm not sure how this can be avoided.--
Changedforbetter (
talk)
02:52, 21 July 2019 (UTC)reply
All or nothing? I asked for the terms to be reduced: not totally eliminated. I find it wearying to have so many mentions of these terms: find further alternatives and make the article easier to read.
shaidar cuebiyar (
talk)
10:09, 22 July 2019 (UTC)reply
In Release
You have "Who and the producers had". Shouldn't this be singular?
Current refs (using
this version) not formatted properly &/or wikilinks not provided: [1], [2], [5], [7], [10]... (too many more). Check them all again.
Consider
WP:MoS and information at
title case. Specifically, place single quote marks for song titles inside quotations/titles of articles: e.g. at [2] use title = 'Between You & Me' Title case: e.g. at [7]: title = Track by Track: Betty Who on ''Betty''shaidar cuebiyar (
talk)
10:09, 22 July 2019 (UTC)reply
I can't access Spotify desktop app and so can't check this information. In any case, Peter Thomas is Peter Walsh, Zak Waters/Pretty Sister is Zakariah Stucchi.
shaidar cuebiyar (
talk)
23:33, 20 July 2019 (UTC)reply
I've removed the blog link. You claim that Peter Thomas and Zak Waters' real names are Peter Walsh and Zakariah Stucchi, respectively, but this isn't cited in Walsh's Wikipedia article, nor in the Spotify credits.--
Changedforbetter (
talk)
21:45, 22 July 2019 (UTC)reply
Of course I know Wikipedia is not a reliable source; I was just suggesting that wouldn't someone have already mentioned Waters' alleged "full name" in his Wikipedia biography if it were verifiable? I would just cite the album's liner notes, but you'd probably say that's not a good source either because you can't access it. Information for the song is not available on ASCAP or APRA – I've already checked – probably because it's an independent release. However, I've added three additional sources: Shazam, Deezer (which you require a subscription to access) and Ultratop; each source cites their names as Peter Thomas and Zak Waters. Awaiting final verdict, as per my message at the bottom of this page.--
Changedforbetter (
talk)
15:11, 23 July 2019 (UTC)shaidar cuebiyarreply
The use of four references for the song's writers is not required. None is as authoratative as ASCAP or APRA but it seems your checking there did not get the same outcome. Consider: <ref name="ASCAP Between">{{cite web | url = https://www.ascap.com/repertory#ace/search/workID/895968697 | title = ACE Repertory – Work ID 895968697 | publisher = [[American Society of Composers, Authors and Publishers]] (ASCAP) | accessdate = 25 July 2019 }}</ref> and <ref name="APRA Between">{{cite web | publisher = [[Australasian Performing Right Association]] (APRA) | [[Australasian Mechanical Copyright Owners Society]] (AMCOS) | title = 'Between You and Me' at APRA search engine | url = http://apraamcos.com.au/search?searchtype=works&keywords=between+you+and+me | accessdate = 25 July 2019 }} Note: For additional work user may have to select 'Search again' and then 'Enter a title:' &/or 'Performer:'</ref> The former gives Zakariah Dane Stucchi and Peter Thomas, the latter gives Z Stucchi and P Walsh respectively. If you explore ASCAP's ACE Repertory you'll find Peter Thomas Walsh (search under writer) is the full name of Peter Thomas. He is the sole writer of
Anton Hagman's "Running in the Dark".
shaidar cuebiyar (
talk)
13:26, 25 July 2019 (UTC)reply
Thank you for your patience and help finding this information; it appears as though I was overlooking the "Include alternate titles" option on ASCAP. I've added both references in addition to Shazam and, since Thomas seems to alternate between Thomas and Thomas Walsh, I'm referring to him as "Thomas Walsh" throughout the article. Awaiting verdict.--
Changedforbetter (
talk)
14:44, 25 July 2019 (UTC)Shaidar cuebiyarreply
Perhaps the website only requires you to register if you are trying to access from certain regions, since I have always been able to access the link without registering nor am I prompted to register, but I've added the warning.--
Changedforbetter (
talk)
03:24, 21 July 2019 (UTC)reply
A warning is still needed to make this wp accessible to a greater range of users.
Criterion 4:
Re: charting... Although not specifically referring to this song, PopMatters' Evan Sawdey has "She absolutely strikes you as the kind of artist who would've had a Top 40 single or two by this point." (see
here). Article should describe that it has not charted (whether that is a commercial failure is left to the readers to decide). How do you explain all the critical acclaim, high Spotify streaming (400,000 times in two weeks) and yet no charting anywhere?
Betty Who has experienced chart success, just not with this single. A song can be a critical success with decent online streams without impacting the charts, especially in the digital age. Unless I have a source clearly stating or alluding to the fact that the song has not charted, I don't think I can really reference its lack of chart success at all. But I have referenced the song being a streaming success.--
Changedforbetter (
talk)
03:30, 21 July 2019 (UTC)reply
All points addressed. References have been corrected and content has been shortened wherever possible, including limiting direct quotes and decreasing the repetition of certain words. In cases where the title of the source placed the album's title (Betty) in quotations, I've corrected it by italicizing. My source for the songwriters' credits does not cite Peter Thomas and Zak Waters as the names you've given. Awaiting verdict. --
Changedforbetter (
talk)
21:46, 22 July 2019 (UTC)Shaidar cuebiyarreply