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Q: Im a photographer and a designer not a writer, but does anyone think this article is a little short? This is on the most significant Industrial sites in our nation, that has recently (and about 10 years ago) had major portions demolished, wiping sections of our industrial history off the planet. We all need to take this article very seriously and make sure that it represents the significance of the site. Wheres the Beef? Id be happy to provide photos and to research and use public domain historic photos if the content was a bit richer, you dig? —urbanarcheolgy
Q: I'm not sure that Bethlehem Steel was founded in South Bethlehem, Pennsylvania. I think the proper place is Bethlehem, Pennsylvania (but correctly, the south side of it). I didn't know that South Bethlehem was even a city until I clicked the link, it's out north of Pittsburgh. Bethlehem, PA is out in eastern PA next to Allentown and is where Beth Steel has been for years.
A: South Bethlehem was a separate municipality at the time that Bethlehem Steel was founded. Bethlehem and South Bethlehem merged in 1917. See http://www.leo.lehigh.edu/projects/tax/bethhistory.html
Someone can put it back later if it proves to be OK. Highly dysfunctional right now (crashed both Firefox 1.5.0.6 and IE7).
I revised the discussion there to make it NPOV, and explain some of the science behind uranium processing. Existing text implied that uranium processing involves unsafe doses of radiation, which it does not, because fresh uranium is only very weakly radioactive. The CNN article that the earlier discussion was based on was just the reporter repeating what the elderly worker said -- I've added some more scientific sources, but I suggest we may want to remove that discussion entirely, since it just boils down to one guy's attempt at getting worker's comp. Dreadengineer ( talk) 20:32, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
The comments about the company abandoning the hardworking people of Johnstown, PA seem POV. Vorenus 13:42, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
You can't dispute the truth, no matter how much it hurts. There is no way a casino can replace a steel mill when it comes to America's former industrial might.
MakeChooChooGoNow
15:10, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
I have a bunch of photos from the steel. I would like to share some on this site. How do people feel about adding a photo album to this page. Also, I changed the photo that was on the Lehigh Valley and Pennsylvania pages. I would appreciate feedback. Jschnalzer 23:22, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
The Naval Historical Center has wonderful aerial photograph of the Bethlehem-Hingham shipyard dated February 1944, its catalogue number is 80-G-218183 and if somebody could get and upload a copy it would make a great addition to this article (alas it is not one of the images that the Naval Historical Center has available on-line). As I understand it images from the Naval Historical Center are public domain in the United States because they are a work of the United States Federal Government under the terms of 17 U.S.C. § 105. Thefrood 02:24, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
I wanted to add a link to the Bethlehem Steel page, at www.oboylephoto.com/steel I think that the photographs in my essay of Bethelehem Steel, all taken in 2006, give a very in depth look at the unseen buildings, architecture and hardware found at The Steel as it was just prior to the Casino construction. I did add a link myself, and it was removed, I wan't sure how to use the talk area to discuss the issue until now. I personally think the photographs add a great deal to the understanding of the scale and complexity of the Bethlehem Steel site, and show many buildings that have now been removed for parking lots. Any feedback would be appreciated. Soboyle ( talk) 17:59, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
yes, those photos belong linked to this article, despite the OPINIONS of the359 and NcSchu who keep touting the rules. I understand that wiki rules dictate that you cannot link to your personal site for self promotion, I think its time to think outside the box here and come to a concensus that those photographs add infinite value to the article. That particular type of industrial architecture is specific to this company and therefore directly related to the company contrary to the limited view of user the359. People need to see them, and to deprive them of the images, which in my opinion, at this point offer far more words than the skimpy article created here and until the "writers" of this article find a way to enrich the writing beyond its bare bones state i vote they stay. Perhaps the359 should stick to editing racecar articles? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Urbanarcheology ( talk • contribs) 15:25, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
I can see both sides of this debate (delete these photos versus keep them). The359 actually makes really good points in his recent comments above. This article needs a lot more info and lots of photos from the days of busy production. To focus heavily on arty photos of postindustrial decay really does represent a tangent away from what this article needs to be. But I think the answer is that it needs BOTH. Eventually this article needs to be developed to the point that it shows plenty of the steel being made and talks about things like how amazing Burns Harbor was when it was designed (full vertical integration, fully served by deep-draft ships, etc). It should also then let the reader see some photos of the subsequent decay at the Bethlehem PA plant. But I think the way to get there is not by *taking away* the arty content—it is by *adding* the industrial content. The reason we've been too heavy on arty decay so far is simply by the nature of this project. This project is made by volunteers, and the easy starting point for most volunteers is the arty decay. For every 8,000 people who say, "ooh, look at the arty photos of the big rusty things—I think my grandpa used to work with those", there are only 8 people who both (a) have knowledge of the business, industry, and history, have read the monographs, etc, and (b) also are volunteering their time to write it up for Wikipedia. So I guess my point is, we're trying to make chicken soup and we currently have all water and almost no chicken, because water is plentiful but chicken is harder to come by. But the answer is not to eliminate all water; it is to find the elusive chicken and add it. Now, that being said, there needs to be a limit on how much water we keep around here in the absence of more chicken. So a few arty decay photos are OK, but don't add so many that they steal the focus of the article. And as for Bethlehem Steel Corporation being all about the one plant, or this article being only about that one plant, that is very inaccurate. It was a huge corporation that absorbed many smaller ones and had many facilities across the USA and elsewhere. For example, its shipyards on both coasts are every bit as key to understanding its history as the one riverbank in South Bethlehem, PA. It is NOT all about Bethlehem, PA in particular—no more than U.S. Steel was only about Pittsburgh, PA. </2¢> — ¾-10 01:52, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
It obviously does have something to do with what perspective is painted of bethlehem steel, you just made that very clear 359. You obviously have an emotional bias here that will surely lead us down one road. No one ever said that the ruins of the plant were to be played up as the most important thing, which is exactly why seans photo essay is an EXTERNAL LINK. It is not the main article. Its an external link to the state of those buidings a few years ago, you CANNOT refute that they do not add anything to the article because that is your opinion. If you cannot see how decaying buildings paint any picture of the company then you are not the kind of person we need editing this article, because when you look at those photos you can see the entire history of the company and our industrial history from start to finish, if you cant see then we cant help you, but we can help everyone else who thinks that is valuable. If you want to help this article then start writing it. If you have so much experience and expertise here then stop worrying about external links to 'artsy photographs' and start doing your part, we are certainly doing ours. If people do step up and actually create some writing here I will help with researching and providing historical imagery to go with it. I have hundreds of historical photos to use during the plants operation that are public domain but we dont have enough content to accommodate it. By the way, thats a 5 to 2 Vote on keeping the link. The internet is the ultimate democracy. They are demolishing the rest of the EFM building this week. If you in the area i suggest you go down to 3rd street and take a look. —Preceding unsigned comment added by urbanarchelogy
If some of you claim to have photos of Bethlehem Steel plants (again, we need more than the Bethlehem, PA plant), why are more and more pictures of the abandoned plant being added to an already overloaded article? I can't say that this image adds much to the section it is in, nor does it very easy to even see. Color would be preferred over black and white, but this picture is simply very dark so as it is.
Also, I cannot help but question some of the pictures being uploaded recently. this for instance is not public domain since it is not the work of the government. Other pictures being uploaded have no source information with which to back up the claim that they are indeed public domain or Creative Commons. The359 ( talk) 23:20, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
The photo is apparently incorrectly titled because the Saucona Iron Company did not build any works. Works were not built until after the company name was changed to Bethlehem Iron Company. Robert M. Hunt ( talk) 13:24, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
First of all let me say that I find it strangely ironic that User:24.239.189.6/ User:Urbanarcheology would call for the discussion to be taken to talk and then go ahead and start an edit war. This article has a problem, and it's never going to be stopped as long as people keep reverting each other's edits and act like they own this article and its content. We must make logical picking and choosing of the most relevant images, namely ones that aren't of the same thing and ones that actually have some meaning to the reader. And I'm sorry, User:Urbanarcheology, but the image of the "High House" I removed does nothing for the reader. Please explain the "importance" you claim in your edit comment. It seems to show nothing but an empty steal-reinforced concrete shell. If this keeps going on, I'm going to call for this page to be protected so that these issues can be resolved. Wikipedia is not a repository of images and as editors have pointed out previously, a few of these photos just don't enhance the article. Unless the size of this article can be doubled, at least two images have to go. NcSchu( Talk) 04:16, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
Im going to remove the color image and move the black and white below the logo. The color photo is not clearer, is not of good quality and no one is to say that color or black and white images are more informative that the other, thats just a left brain way of thinking. I can see through your lens and my own... It takes all kinds of people to produce content like this and reverting the article back to your preferred version is narrow. The image of the High House, which you have proven neither of you know anything about is not 'useless' it shows a 100 ton overhead crane, shows clearly the scale necessary to heat treat 14" guns for warships into the oil quenching tanks below. It also shows a very important style of industrial architecture specific to this company (I will add more info to the caption) That building looks the same as it did when it was in production you just dont know enough about it to understand that. Please dont let your ignorance of what is really in that picture prevent someone else from better understanding the use of that building and its historical siginificance. If you think that the photo of the high house 'does nothing for the reader' then it seems strange that the Smithsonian Institution has retained it in its permanent collection for the very reason it preserves the historic equipment it shows. Just because it doesnt do anything for you obviously doesnt mean anything to the rest of the world who can benefit from it. This article is not about you, its about sharing information with the world, which I have been very generous to do with my work. If you are so concerned about the length of the article, once again, instead of nit picking over details perhaps you should help to write it, something neither one of you have done. At least 359 found some good images but said clearly before he would prefer text so how bout doing a little research on that so i can worry about photos. Ive made it very clear that I am not a writer, that is the thing i know least about. You need to understand what you are good at and do it. Im good at photography (specifically industrial architecture) and using climbing equipment to place pro 100 feet up on an 80 year old blast furnace thats rotting away to secure myself and my gear in the proper position to take photographs of that quality, in order to preserve our industrial history, and to give it back to people so that they can see it themselves and dont have to put themselves in that danger. If you you dont have any photo editing experience dont do it, If you dont know how to research content and include it then dont do it. Everyone wants to contribute but you two have contributed the least and continue to complain the most. You dont see Robert Hunt complaining do you? Thats because he is scientist and a scholar and has been working on this article long before you two showed up and continues to make valid edits to the article. Dont complain, do some research, add some text, and help to make this article better. -urbanarcheology
that sounds great, and while this dispute is going on I will continue to conduct oral history interviews of steelworkers in the area, to help paint a picture of the working class men and women that helped build this country from the ground up... and of course to continue photographing the demolition of historic buildings as our industrial history is knocked to the ground. For the record I do know why the Smithsonian collected the image because I am working directly with them Urbanarcheology ( talk) 23:31, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
stay in school nick Urbanarcheology ( talk) 23:51, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
If you are working for the Smithsonian, and that is your picture that you took, why on Jeremy Blakeslee's website, which you cite as the original photographer, is there no mention of working with the Smithsonian? In fact, your user page on Wikipedia lists multiple publishers and companies that are not listed on Jeremy Blakeslee's website.
If you are not Jeremy Blakeslee (most likely User talk:Jbdesign2), then the photo isn't yours to begin with. If you are Jeremy Blakeslee, and the the photograph is yours, then I'd appreciate a Smithsonian Catalog number if possible.
You've had problems uploading photos with information as to where you obtained them, as well as uploading under incorrect licenses, so I think this is necessary. The359 ( talk) 00:57, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
wow what your detective work has discovered is that I have an assistant who has helps me scan, do research, and upload files sometimes. we are, in fact, two different people. the photo you found in the magazine once again proves your ineptness with regards to photography, that is obviously a different photo, not a cropped version or high resolution version. which images i upload is up to me. all of this time you could have been doing research and making a contribution but you choose to play games. you guys are hilarious i hope your having a good time. ha ha Urbanarcheology ( talk) 15:06, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
Ahh my favorite expert still angy eh? If my assistant uploads an architectural photograph with my credit hes not claiming he took it, the photo of the high house shows important equipment, scale, and architecture, and I told you I would upload those photos as soon as you starting writing content that is suitable enough for the power of those images. No one has even begun to scratch the surface with that article and you certainly have not been of any help. I replaced some low quality digital images on chichen itza and uxmal with high quality architectural photographs, they were reverted, and I did not start an edit war but im sure that would make you very happy. Just because an architectural photo is black and white does not mean its some piece of fine art that does not provide encyclopedic information, that once again, is your very limited view surfacing. I dont have to prove anything to you, and will continue to contribute this article when this is resolved. If you want to make a difference then stop complaining and do some research while the page is locked so you can make a real contribution in the future. What was it you said your connection is to The Steel? 35 years of what exactly because it has obviously made you very bitter. If you dont have any expertise in this area or have any resources available to you which you have already admitted, then go edit something you know something about and stop trying to enlighten me with your undying wisdom of art. what we are dealing with here is a simple example of prickly people vs gooey people. Prickly people are advocates of intellectual porcupinism, they want precise sta-tis-tics they have a certain clipped attitude in their voices, you know them very well in academic circles...always edgy and and they accuse other people of being disgustingly vague and miasmic and mystical. but the vague miasmic and mystical people accuse the prickly people of being mere skeletons with no flesh on their bones, and they say to them, you just rattle, you not a human being you know the words but you dont know the music. if your the prickly type you hope that the ultimate constituent of matter is particles, if your the gooey type you hope its waves. prickly, classicist, gooey, romanticist. and so it goes, but we know that this universe is comprised of both and you cannot have one without the other. Just like the fact that there is a place for both color and black and white photos in this article. I have only made great efforts to give the images i produce back to people who can benefit from them, what you have done we are not sure. what is the difference between deaf ears and blind eyes anyway? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Urbanarcheology ( talk • contribs) 20:13, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
ha ha ha im really getting a kick out of all of this you guys are so angry and would love to make me took bad, fantastic! is it working out how you planned? boy i hope so. ha ha ha!. my background is in graphic design and photography not art, which is more than i can say for the likes of you, and I have uploaded historic photos where appropriate, you must have been busy "cleaning up" the article (ha ha ha) and didnt notice what was right in front of you...exactly the kind of person we need helping the article out... while your dying to find things im doing wrong im actually down there photographing our history being demolished. if you cant contribute, dont bitch. Urbanarcheology ( talk) 23:19, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
Dispute over the selection and use of photographs as well as external links to photographs in regards to the former company Bethlehem Steel. The359 ( talk) 21:51, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
Would-be RFC commentator: Can someone explain what this dispute is about? The edit war that got this page protected seems to have been about a section of the article—not the pictures. I'm not sure what the problem with the pictures is. If you want to add more non-decay pictures, why don't we? Cool Hand Luke 06:36, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Ok, in light of this explanation, and after confirming much of what you say, I'll offer my independent opinion: I agree with the apparent consensus that this was an unnecessary link per WP:EL and that we don't need spammy captions like this. I also agree that many versions of the article place far too much emphasis on decay for an encyclopedia article. That said, the pictures do have some aesthetic merit. My suggestion is to upload all of the freely-licensed photos to Wikipedia commons, adding them to this commons category. That way, we will have a gallery of images without having to unbalance the article. I would trim perhaps one of the Bethlehem, PA pictures from the article because they're all of the same closed plant. As we get more pictures, we shouldn't need more than one of this closed location. All of these pictures should all be available in the commons gallery, though. Cool Hand Luke 03:11, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
Now that there has been some outside input regarding this article, as well as the removal of the article protection, I think it is safe to start discussion once again over the state of the article. Recently, even more photos have been added, and I think that there is simply too much here, and some consensus is really needed about what photos should be used and what should be put on Commons, how pictures should be oriented and how big they should be, and how some text should be rearranged or rewritten. All suggestions welcomed. The359 ( talk) 05:39, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
Thanks 359 I enjoy discussion, and I am glad you welcome my suggestions I will have a few as time goes on. There is simply too much here, and I look forward to a consensus on what photos should be used and what should be put on commons. Nick, stating that only one picture of the bethlehem site is needed is POV considering that this is the flagship facility and its over 5 miles long, and so is saying that images that are more artistic rather than informative should be removed. If your are confused about what is artistic and what is informative architectural photography i recommend: Julius Shulman: Architecture and Its Photography. As this discussion moves forward I would like to point out that simply because a photo is not in color does not make it any less informative, informational or encyclopedic. All of the outside input has acknowledged the fact that there is room for both historic and contemporary photographic images in this article and as the article becomes longer as people actually make literal contributions we will be able to find a good balance of both. Urbanarcheology ( talk) 00:45, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
Agree with the removal of Image:Bethlehemsteel.jpg, though I think the other pictures of Burns Harbor and the other factories don't necessarily belong in a section about those individual plants (because with the number of facilities they could get out of hand), but just in a general section about the plants, which doesn't actually exist yet. Also agree on the plaque, I'm having trouble reading it. NcSchu( Talk) 04:34, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
you can try to argue my point against me if you wish, but digital files dont contain nearly as much information as film images in black and white or color (flim images have the same resolution despite their color properties). The fact that an image is digital AND of very low quality, AND blurry (!) has significant bearing on whether or not it is worthy, especially since the image you were declaring worthy is anything but, further calling into question your photo editing ability. I agree with nick, thumbnails are supposed to be clear as thumbnails as well, and that GG bridge plaque is illegible. We should have a section dedicated to the other plants but not necessarily one section for each. the fact that other plants were larger doesnt have any bearing on the company, which started in bethlehem, those plants are an extension of the company and are important, but for right now, we dont have any other information in the article about other plants, so lets not flood the article with more imagery of the other plants that no one has chosen to do research or write about yet. as they come, there will be more room for more imagery. Urbanarcheology ( talk) 04:22, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
the superiority is not lost at all, in fact, with todays scanning technology, its even better than traditional darkroom techniques. negatives have density so you can actually scan them multiple times and composite the information, unlike a digital file. Urbanarcheology ( talk) 16:32, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
thank you for your insight. please dont add any blurry low quality images or try to "fix" them by throwing away even more information at a smaller resolution. you can notice a benefit between film and digital images even at 200 pixels, besides this isnt about thumbnails, its about imagery and more importantly content which you have created zero. if you know so much about the other plants, perhaps you should add it? that would be a greater contribution than your most recent suggestions. Jbdesign2 ( talk) 21:16, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
From Wikipedia:Avoid weasel words:
Implicit endorsement of faulty logic.
The second sentence of the new segment is Clearly, if the company was going to remain viable long term, a new product line needed to be developed.. That's just reason #1 why the weasel word template deserve to be there.
See also:
Etc. 21:27, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
You are really good at complaining and slapping tags on things! Perhaps you should focus on editing the content? If you are able to improve this information please do so but whining and knee jerk reactions dont benefit anyone. Urbanarcheology ( talk) 15:17, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
what happened —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.251.53.2 ( talk) 16:41, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
Why are both of these two images needed? I still find it sort of odd that out of the dozens and dozens of factories/plants/yards that Bethlehem Steel once had, we (well, some) choose to focus most of the article on the life and afterlife of only one of them. Yes, it perhaps was the main one, but why do we have to follow the construction of something that's not part of Bethlehem Steel. I find the demolition picture to be informative and useful. Perhaps if this one showed more of the actual factory it might be useful, but because it really doesn't show much of anything except some construction trailers, pieces of steel framing, and a tiny crane in the background, it could be anywhere or anything. NcSchu( Talk) 17:41, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
I worked in the Bethlehem plant 35 years ago, and am very proud of that fact. I left the Lehigh Valley long ago. I am embarrassed by the childish verbal disputes that fill this overlong Talk page. I assume that the entry has been the site of revert wars a well. Wikipedia revert wars and accusations of sock/meat puppetry are among the biggest time wasters of contemporary civilization. My 2 cents worth:
The entry also fails to mention:
This image on the bottom and its caption are misleading. As the beginning of the article correctly states, there are five blast furnaces and they are all still standing. 64.121.150.175 ( talk) 21:01, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
It astounds me how many people have opinions on this article who have yet to contribute to it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.205.136.150 ( talk) 00:30, 4 March 2012 (UTC)
I've recently uploaded historical photos that greatly benefit this article. The moment that anyone like this 359 guy start causing problems and picking fights for no reason with dogmatic knee jerk personal reactions, I'm pulling the images in protest, selfish I know but something has to be done with this clown'. He has yet to contribute anything positive to this page and its sad to see that. As long as he is an editor on this article it is next to impossible for it to advance. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Winter4368 ( talk • contribs) 01:10, 4 March 2012 (UTC)
as you wish, it seems the uploader of those images made a mistake. they were not in the public domain. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Winter4368 ( talk • contribs) 06:54, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
i like your little 359 diagonal design, it makes you look bored. enjoy your life rotting away in pennsylvania; its all you'll ever have. I have hundres of historical images i could attribute properly, unfortunately, wikipedia is run by volunteers like you, depriving the world of information. we do not forgive. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Winter4368 ( talk • contribs) 07:07, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
let me guess. you live alone in pennsylvania. you have no girlfriend so you bought a labradoodle. you ended up here with your english degree acting like you're employed by wikipedia. I guess i'm just not smart enough to properly credit those images and make them public domain. you get off on citing rules and never actually contributing any content to this article. your talk page is full of people who can't stand you, and watching you waste your time arguing with me makes me very, very happy. while you are at home watching star trek with your dog or out taking amateur photos of cars, I am researching, hunting down, and photographing professionally historic industrial architecture and machinery that is disappearing at an alarming rate. if you would like to keep removing an academic link to a reputable publication with information about bethlehem steel that could be sited in this article by someone like YOU or hopefully smarter, than the only one depriving people of information is you. I have hundreds of historic photos of bethlehem steel in operation that i could site properly, but as long as you continue to edit this article i am withholding them, that is correct, in protest of your editing tactics. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.193.133.208 ( talk) 16:43, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
Dear wikipedians, I think that this article would benefit with the inclusion of a brief list of the most significant products, maybe linking to a more extensive list in a separate page. Does anyone know what to use as a "starting point"? Thanks & regards, DPdH ( talk) 03:16, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
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The lead section on this is completely uncited and parts of it are over eight years old. It also uses weasel words and the last section reads like an essay conclusion. Do we just need to put the work in to get citations for it, or should we rewrite? Qxu21 ( talk) 06:36, 2 October 2019 (UTC)
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Q: Im a photographer and a designer not a writer, but does anyone think this article is a little short? This is on the most significant Industrial sites in our nation, that has recently (and about 10 years ago) had major portions demolished, wiping sections of our industrial history off the planet. We all need to take this article very seriously and make sure that it represents the significance of the site. Wheres the Beef? Id be happy to provide photos and to research and use public domain historic photos if the content was a bit richer, you dig? —urbanarcheolgy
Q: I'm not sure that Bethlehem Steel was founded in South Bethlehem, Pennsylvania. I think the proper place is Bethlehem, Pennsylvania (but correctly, the south side of it). I didn't know that South Bethlehem was even a city until I clicked the link, it's out north of Pittsburgh. Bethlehem, PA is out in eastern PA next to Allentown and is where Beth Steel has been for years.
A: South Bethlehem was a separate municipality at the time that Bethlehem Steel was founded. Bethlehem and South Bethlehem merged in 1917. See http://www.leo.lehigh.edu/projects/tax/bethhistory.html
Someone can put it back later if it proves to be OK. Highly dysfunctional right now (crashed both Firefox 1.5.0.6 and IE7).
I revised the discussion there to make it NPOV, and explain some of the science behind uranium processing. Existing text implied that uranium processing involves unsafe doses of radiation, which it does not, because fresh uranium is only very weakly radioactive. The CNN article that the earlier discussion was based on was just the reporter repeating what the elderly worker said -- I've added some more scientific sources, but I suggest we may want to remove that discussion entirely, since it just boils down to one guy's attempt at getting worker's comp. Dreadengineer ( talk) 20:32, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
The comments about the company abandoning the hardworking people of Johnstown, PA seem POV. Vorenus 13:42, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
You can't dispute the truth, no matter how much it hurts. There is no way a casino can replace a steel mill when it comes to America's former industrial might.
MakeChooChooGoNow
15:10, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
I have a bunch of photos from the steel. I would like to share some on this site. How do people feel about adding a photo album to this page. Also, I changed the photo that was on the Lehigh Valley and Pennsylvania pages. I would appreciate feedback. Jschnalzer 23:22, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
The Naval Historical Center has wonderful aerial photograph of the Bethlehem-Hingham shipyard dated February 1944, its catalogue number is 80-G-218183 and if somebody could get and upload a copy it would make a great addition to this article (alas it is not one of the images that the Naval Historical Center has available on-line). As I understand it images from the Naval Historical Center are public domain in the United States because they are a work of the United States Federal Government under the terms of 17 U.S.C. § 105. Thefrood 02:24, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
I wanted to add a link to the Bethlehem Steel page, at www.oboylephoto.com/steel I think that the photographs in my essay of Bethelehem Steel, all taken in 2006, give a very in depth look at the unseen buildings, architecture and hardware found at The Steel as it was just prior to the Casino construction. I did add a link myself, and it was removed, I wan't sure how to use the talk area to discuss the issue until now. I personally think the photographs add a great deal to the understanding of the scale and complexity of the Bethlehem Steel site, and show many buildings that have now been removed for parking lots. Any feedback would be appreciated. Soboyle ( talk) 17:59, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
yes, those photos belong linked to this article, despite the OPINIONS of the359 and NcSchu who keep touting the rules. I understand that wiki rules dictate that you cannot link to your personal site for self promotion, I think its time to think outside the box here and come to a concensus that those photographs add infinite value to the article. That particular type of industrial architecture is specific to this company and therefore directly related to the company contrary to the limited view of user the359. People need to see them, and to deprive them of the images, which in my opinion, at this point offer far more words than the skimpy article created here and until the "writers" of this article find a way to enrich the writing beyond its bare bones state i vote they stay. Perhaps the359 should stick to editing racecar articles? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Urbanarcheology ( talk • contribs) 15:25, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
I can see both sides of this debate (delete these photos versus keep them). The359 actually makes really good points in his recent comments above. This article needs a lot more info and lots of photos from the days of busy production. To focus heavily on arty photos of postindustrial decay really does represent a tangent away from what this article needs to be. But I think the answer is that it needs BOTH. Eventually this article needs to be developed to the point that it shows plenty of the steel being made and talks about things like how amazing Burns Harbor was when it was designed (full vertical integration, fully served by deep-draft ships, etc). It should also then let the reader see some photos of the subsequent decay at the Bethlehem PA plant. But I think the way to get there is not by *taking away* the arty content—it is by *adding* the industrial content. The reason we've been too heavy on arty decay so far is simply by the nature of this project. This project is made by volunteers, and the easy starting point for most volunteers is the arty decay. For every 8,000 people who say, "ooh, look at the arty photos of the big rusty things—I think my grandpa used to work with those", there are only 8 people who both (a) have knowledge of the business, industry, and history, have read the monographs, etc, and (b) also are volunteering their time to write it up for Wikipedia. So I guess my point is, we're trying to make chicken soup and we currently have all water and almost no chicken, because water is plentiful but chicken is harder to come by. But the answer is not to eliminate all water; it is to find the elusive chicken and add it. Now, that being said, there needs to be a limit on how much water we keep around here in the absence of more chicken. So a few arty decay photos are OK, but don't add so many that they steal the focus of the article. And as for Bethlehem Steel Corporation being all about the one plant, or this article being only about that one plant, that is very inaccurate. It was a huge corporation that absorbed many smaller ones and had many facilities across the USA and elsewhere. For example, its shipyards on both coasts are every bit as key to understanding its history as the one riverbank in South Bethlehem, PA. It is NOT all about Bethlehem, PA in particular—no more than U.S. Steel was only about Pittsburgh, PA. </2¢> — ¾-10 01:52, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
It obviously does have something to do with what perspective is painted of bethlehem steel, you just made that very clear 359. You obviously have an emotional bias here that will surely lead us down one road. No one ever said that the ruins of the plant were to be played up as the most important thing, which is exactly why seans photo essay is an EXTERNAL LINK. It is not the main article. Its an external link to the state of those buidings a few years ago, you CANNOT refute that they do not add anything to the article because that is your opinion. If you cannot see how decaying buildings paint any picture of the company then you are not the kind of person we need editing this article, because when you look at those photos you can see the entire history of the company and our industrial history from start to finish, if you cant see then we cant help you, but we can help everyone else who thinks that is valuable. If you want to help this article then start writing it. If you have so much experience and expertise here then stop worrying about external links to 'artsy photographs' and start doing your part, we are certainly doing ours. If people do step up and actually create some writing here I will help with researching and providing historical imagery to go with it. I have hundreds of historical photos to use during the plants operation that are public domain but we dont have enough content to accommodate it. By the way, thats a 5 to 2 Vote on keeping the link. The internet is the ultimate democracy. They are demolishing the rest of the EFM building this week. If you in the area i suggest you go down to 3rd street and take a look. —Preceding unsigned comment added by urbanarchelogy
If some of you claim to have photos of Bethlehem Steel plants (again, we need more than the Bethlehem, PA plant), why are more and more pictures of the abandoned plant being added to an already overloaded article? I can't say that this image adds much to the section it is in, nor does it very easy to even see. Color would be preferred over black and white, but this picture is simply very dark so as it is.
Also, I cannot help but question some of the pictures being uploaded recently. this for instance is not public domain since it is not the work of the government. Other pictures being uploaded have no source information with which to back up the claim that they are indeed public domain or Creative Commons. The359 ( talk) 23:20, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
The photo is apparently incorrectly titled because the Saucona Iron Company did not build any works. Works were not built until after the company name was changed to Bethlehem Iron Company. Robert M. Hunt ( talk) 13:24, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
First of all let me say that I find it strangely ironic that User:24.239.189.6/ User:Urbanarcheology would call for the discussion to be taken to talk and then go ahead and start an edit war. This article has a problem, and it's never going to be stopped as long as people keep reverting each other's edits and act like they own this article and its content. We must make logical picking and choosing of the most relevant images, namely ones that aren't of the same thing and ones that actually have some meaning to the reader. And I'm sorry, User:Urbanarcheology, but the image of the "High House" I removed does nothing for the reader. Please explain the "importance" you claim in your edit comment. It seems to show nothing but an empty steal-reinforced concrete shell. If this keeps going on, I'm going to call for this page to be protected so that these issues can be resolved. Wikipedia is not a repository of images and as editors have pointed out previously, a few of these photos just don't enhance the article. Unless the size of this article can be doubled, at least two images have to go. NcSchu( Talk) 04:16, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
Im going to remove the color image and move the black and white below the logo. The color photo is not clearer, is not of good quality and no one is to say that color or black and white images are more informative that the other, thats just a left brain way of thinking. I can see through your lens and my own... It takes all kinds of people to produce content like this and reverting the article back to your preferred version is narrow. The image of the High House, which you have proven neither of you know anything about is not 'useless' it shows a 100 ton overhead crane, shows clearly the scale necessary to heat treat 14" guns for warships into the oil quenching tanks below. It also shows a very important style of industrial architecture specific to this company (I will add more info to the caption) That building looks the same as it did when it was in production you just dont know enough about it to understand that. Please dont let your ignorance of what is really in that picture prevent someone else from better understanding the use of that building and its historical siginificance. If you think that the photo of the high house 'does nothing for the reader' then it seems strange that the Smithsonian Institution has retained it in its permanent collection for the very reason it preserves the historic equipment it shows. Just because it doesnt do anything for you obviously doesnt mean anything to the rest of the world who can benefit from it. This article is not about you, its about sharing information with the world, which I have been very generous to do with my work. If you are so concerned about the length of the article, once again, instead of nit picking over details perhaps you should help to write it, something neither one of you have done. At least 359 found some good images but said clearly before he would prefer text so how bout doing a little research on that so i can worry about photos. Ive made it very clear that I am not a writer, that is the thing i know least about. You need to understand what you are good at and do it. Im good at photography (specifically industrial architecture) and using climbing equipment to place pro 100 feet up on an 80 year old blast furnace thats rotting away to secure myself and my gear in the proper position to take photographs of that quality, in order to preserve our industrial history, and to give it back to people so that they can see it themselves and dont have to put themselves in that danger. If you you dont have any photo editing experience dont do it, If you dont know how to research content and include it then dont do it. Everyone wants to contribute but you two have contributed the least and continue to complain the most. You dont see Robert Hunt complaining do you? Thats because he is scientist and a scholar and has been working on this article long before you two showed up and continues to make valid edits to the article. Dont complain, do some research, add some text, and help to make this article better. -urbanarcheology
that sounds great, and while this dispute is going on I will continue to conduct oral history interviews of steelworkers in the area, to help paint a picture of the working class men and women that helped build this country from the ground up... and of course to continue photographing the demolition of historic buildings as our industrial history is knocked to the ground. For the record I do know why the Smithsonian collected the image because I am working directly with them Urbanarcheology ( talk) 23:31, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
stay in school nick Urbanarcheology ( talk) 23:51, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
If you are working for the Smithsonian, and that is your picture that you took, why on Jeremy Blakeslee's website, which you cite as the original photographer, is there no mention of working with the Smithsonian? In fact, your user page on Wikipedia lists multiple publishers and companies that are not listed on Jeremy Blakeslee's website.
If you are not Jeremy Blakeslee (most likely User talk:Jbdesign2), then the photo isn't yours to begin with. If you are Jeremy Blakeslee, and the the photograph is yours, then I'd appreciate a Smithsonian Catalog number if possible.
You've had problems uploading photos with information as to where you obtained them, as well as uploading under incorrect licenses, so I think this is necessary. The359 ( talk) 00:57, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
wow what your detective work has discovered is that I have an assistant who has helps me scan, do research, and upload files sometimes. we are, in fact, two different people. the photo you found in the magazine once again proves your ineptness with regards to photography, that is obviously a different photo, not a cropped version or high resolution version. which images i upload is up to me. all of this time you could have been doing research and making a contribution but you choose to play games. you guys are hilarious i hope your having a good time. ha ha Urbanarcheology ( talk) 15:06, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
Ahh my favorite expert still angy eh? If my assistant uploads an architectural photograph with my credit hes not claiming he took it, the photo of the high house shows important equipment, scale, and architecture, and I told you I would upload those photos as soon as you starting writing content that is suitable enough for the power of those images. No one has even begun to scratch the surface with that article and you certainly have not been of any help. I replaced some low quality digital images on chichen itza and uxmal with high quality architectural photographs, they were reverted, and I did not start an edit war but im sure that would make you very happy. Just because an architectural photo is black and white does not mean its some piece of fine art that does not provide encyclopedic information, that once again, is your very limited view surfacing. I dont have to prove anything to you, and will continue to contribute this article when this is resolved. If you want to make a difference then stop complaining and do some research while the page is locked so you can make a real contribution in the future. What was it you said your connection is to The Steel? 35 years of what exactly because it has obviously made you very bitter. If you dont have any expertise in this area or have any resources available to you which you have already admitted, then go edit something you know something about and stop trying to enlighten me with your undying wisdom of art. what we are dealing with here is a simple example of prickly people vs gooey people. Prickly people are advocates of intellectual porcupinism, they want precise sta-tis-tics they have a certain clipped attitude in their voices, you know them very well in academic circles...always edgy and and they accuse other people of being disgustingly vague and miasmic and mystical. but the vague miasmic and mystical people accuse the prickly people of being mere skeletons with no flesh on their bones, and they say to them, you just rattle, you not a human being you know the words but you dont know the music. if your the prickly type you hope that the ultimate constituent of matter is particles, if your the gooey type you hope its waves. prickly, classicist, gooey, romanticist. and so it goes, but we know that this universe is comprised of both and you cannot have one without the other. Just like the fact that there is a place for both color and black and white photos in this article. I have only made great efforts to give the images i produce back to people who can benefit from them, what you have done we are not sure. what is the difference between deaf ears and blind eyes anyway? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Urbanarcheology ( talk • contribs) 20:13, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
ha ha ha im really getting a kick out of all of this you guys are so angry and would love to make me took bad, fantastic! is it working out how you planned? boy i hope so. ha ha ha!. my background is in graphic design and photography not art, which is more than i can say for the likes of you, and I have uploaded historic photos where appropriate, you must have been busy "cleaning up" the article (ha ha ha) and didnt notice what was right in front of you...exactly the kind of person we need helping the article out... while your dying to find things im doing wrong im actually down there photographing our history being demolished. if you cant contribute, dont bitch. Urbanarcheology ( talk) 23:19, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
Dispute over the selection and use of photographs as well as external links to photographs in regards to the former company Bethlehem Steel. The359 ( talk) 21:51, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
Would-be RFC commentator: Can someone explain what this dispute is about? The edit war that got this page protected seems to have been about a section of the article—not the pictures. I'm not sure what the problem with the pictures is. If you want to add more non-decay pictures, why don't we? Cool Hand Luke 06:36, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Ok, in light of this explanation, and after confirming much of what you say, I'll offer my independent opinion: I agree with the apparent consensus that this was an unnecessary link per WP:EL and that we don't need spammy captions like this. I also agree that many versions of the article place far too much emphasis on decay for an encyclopedia article. That said, the pictures do have some aesthetic merit. My suggestion is to upload all of the freely-licensed photos to Wikipedia commons, adding them to this commons category. That way, we will have a gallery of images without having to unbalance the article. I would trim perhaps one of the Bethlehem, PA pictures from the article because they're all of the same closed plant. As we get more pictures, we shouldn't need more than one of this closed location. All of these pictures should all be available in the commons gallery, though. Cool Hand Luke 03:11, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
Now that there has been some outside input regarding this article, as well as the removal of the article protection, I think it is safe to start discussion once again over the state of the article. Recently, even more photos have been added, and I think that there is simply too much here, and some consensus is really needed about what photos should be used and what should be put on Commons, how pictures should be oriented and how big they should be, and how some text should be rearranged or rewritten. All suggestions welcomed. The359 ( talk) 05:39, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
Thanks 359 I enjoy discussion, and I am glad you welcome my suggestions I will have a few as time goes on. There is simply too much here, and I look forward to a consensus on what photos should be used and what should be put on commons. Nick, stating that only one picture of the bethlehem site is needed is POV considering that this is the flagship facility and its over 5 miles long, and so is saying that images that are more artistic rather than informative should be removed. If your are confused about what is artistic and what is informative architectural photography i recommend: Julius Shulman: Architecture and Its Photography. As this discussion moves forward I would like to point out that simply because a photo is not in color does not make it any less informative, informational or encyclopedic. All of the outside input has acknowledged the fact that there is room for both historic and contemporary photographic images in this article and as the article becomes longer as people actually make literal contributions we will be able to find a good balance of both. Urbanarcheology ( talk) 00:45, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
Agree with the removal of Image:Bethlehemsteel.jpg, though I think the other pictures of Burns Harbor and the other factories don't necessarily belong in a section about those individual plants (because with the number of facilities they could get out of hand), but just in a general section about the plants, which doesn't actually exist yet. Also agree on the plaque, I'm having trouble reading it. NcSchu( Talk) 04:34, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
you can try to argue my point against me if you wish, but digital files dont contain nearly as much information as film images in black and white or color (flim images have the same resolution despite their color properties). The fact that an image is digital AND of very low quality, AND blurry (!) has significant bearing on whether or not it is worthy, especially since the image you were declaring worthy is anything but, further calling into question your photo editing ability. I agree with nick, thumbnails are supposed to be clear as thumbnails as well, and that GG bridge plaque is illegible. We should have a section dedicated to the other plants but not necessarily one section for each. the fact that other plants were larger doesnt have any bearing on the company, which started in bethlehem, those plants are an extension of the company and are important, but for right now, we dont have any other information in the article about other plants, so lets not flood the article with more imagery of the other plants that no one has chosen to do research or write about yet. as they come, there will be more room for more imagery. Urbanarcheology ( talk) 04:22, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
the superiority is not lost at all, in fact, with todays scanning technology, its even better than traditional darkroom techniques. negatives have density so you can actually scan them multiple times and composite the information, unlike a digital file. Urbanarcheology ( talk) 16:32, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
thank you for your insight. please dont add any blurry low quality images or try to "fix" them by throwing away even more information at a smaller resolution. you can notice a benefit between film and digital images even at 200 pixels, besides this isnt about thumbnails, its about imagery and more importantly content which you have created zero. if you know so much about the other plants, perhaps you should add it? that would be a greater contribution than your most recent suggestions. Jbdesign2 ( talk) 21:16, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
From Wikipedia:Avoid weasel words:
Implicit endorsement of faulty logic.
The second sentence of the new segment is Clearly, if the company was going to remain viable long term, a new product line needed to be developed.. That's just reason #1 why the weasel word template deserve to be there.
See also:
Etc. 21:27, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
You are really good at complaining and slapping tags on things! Perhaps you should focus on editing the content? If you are able to improve this information please do so but whining and knee jerk reactions dont benefit anyone. Urbanarcheology ( talk) 15:17, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
what happened —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.251.53.2 ( talk) 16:41, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
Why are both of these two images needed? I still find it sort of odd that out of the dozens and dozens of factories/plants/yards that Bethlehem Steel once had, we (well, some) choose to focus most of the article on the life and afterlife of only one of them. Yes, it perhaps was the main one, but why do we have to follow the construction of something that's not part of Bethlehem Steel. I find the demolition picture to be informative and useful. Perhaps if this one showed more of the actual factory it might be useful, but because it really doesn't show much of anything except some construction trailers, pieces of steel framing, and a tiny crane in the background, it could be anywhere or anything. NcSchu( Talk) 17:41, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
I worked in the Bethlehem plant 35 years ago, and am very proud of that fact. I left the Lehigh Valley long ago. I am embarrassed by the childish verbal disputes that fill this overlong Talk page. I assume that the entry has been the site of revert wars a well. Wikipedia revert wars and accusations of sock/meat puppetry are among the biggest time wasters of contemporary civilization. My 2 cents worth:
The entry also fails to mention:
This image on the bottom and its caption are misleading. As the beginning of the article correctly states, there are five blast furnaces and they are all still standing. 64.121.150.175 ( talk) 21:01, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
It astounds me how many people have opinions on this article who have yet to contribute to it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.205.136.150 ( talk) 00:30, 4 March 2012 (UTC)
I've recently uploaded historical photos that greatly benefit this article. The moment that anyone like this 359 guy start causing problems and picking fights for no reason with dogmatic knee jerk personal reactions, I'm pulling the images in protest, selfish I know but something has to be done with this clown'. He has yet to contribute anything positive to this page and its sad to see that. As long as he is an editor on this article it is next to impossible for it to advance. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Winter4368 ( talk • contribs) 01:10, 4 March 2012 (UTC)
as you wish, it seems the uploader of those images made a mistake. they were not in the public domain. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Winter4368 ( talk • contribs) 06:54, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
i like your little 359 diagonal design, it makes you look bored. enjoy your life rotting away in pennsylvania; its all you'll ever have. I have hundres of historical images i could attribute properly, unfortunately, wikipedia is run by volunteers like you, depriving the world of information. we do not forgive. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Winter4368 ( talk • contribs) 07:07, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
let me guess. you live alone in pennsylvania. you have no girlfriend so you bought a labradoodle. you ended up here with your english degree acting like you're employed by wikipedia. I guess i'm just not smart enough to properly credit those images and make them public domain. you get off on citing rules and never actually contributing any content to this article. your talk page is full of people who can't stand you, and watching you waste your time arguing with me makes me very, very happy. while you are at home watching star trek with your dog or out taking amateur photos of cars, I am researching, hunting down, and photographing professionally historic industrial architecture and machinery that is disappearing at an alarming rate. if you would like to keep removing an academic link to a reputable publication with information about bethlehem steel that could be sited in this article by someone like YOU or hopefully smarter, than the only one depriving people of information is you. I have hundreds of historic photos of bethlehem steel in operation that i could site properly, but as long as you continue to edit this article i am withholding them, that is correct, in protest of your editing tactics. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.193.133.208 ( talk) 16:43, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
Dear wikipedians, I think that this article would benefit with the inclusion of a brief list of the most significant products, maybe linking to a more extensive list in a separate page. Does anyone know what to use as a "starting point"? Thanks & regards, DPdH ( talk) 03:16, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
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The lead section on this is completely uncited and parts of it are over eight years old. It also uses weasel words and the last section reads like an essay conclusion. Do we just need to put the work in to get citations for it, or should we rewrite? Qxu21 ( talk) 06:36, 2 October 2019 (UTC)