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Let's discuss this. From my perspective, at least the bit about MacFadden distrusting medical science should be in the lead (by my count, 3 RSs mention it). I do not know whether or not the daugthers' deaths should go there, but I would lean toward "no," since it is not primarily what he was known for, and it's still unclear to me if all three of those RS mention that incident specifically.
I do not see how the cited sources are "shaky", as one editor puts it. Are there scholarly, secondary sources that refute them? If not, each one is sufficiently reliable, even though they are journalistic/non-scholarly.-- MattMauler ( talk) 17:05, 13 June 2021 (UTC)
I myself am perhaps a bit shaky in my age but what I meant was that the sources were written and published quite some time after the death and Macfadden's alleged scorning of it but do not to my knowledge directly cite their own source for this claim. They do seem to be rely-able sources in general but sources to be relied upon entirely regarding this point they are not! It seems they reference Macfadden in passing; fine books perhaps but the manner in which they bring him up and put him down does not take the character of an assertion of exclusive fact, which we need for a Wikipedia source (no?). There's probably a kernel of fact here but if the sources are reliable then there should be something better to relied upon for it, viz. that which they relied upon: they are likely at least exaggerating for narrative purposes, harmless in their own context but unduly damaging when promoted elsewhere...? I mean that just as his "distrust for medical science" seems to be very exaggerated; in his own books and he cites doctors and occasionally even recommends that his readers consult them. Maybe worth noting as well that while his health recommendations do seem compatible with a contempt for medicine when looked upon in our time, they were somewhat consistent with contemporaneous mainstream views. Even then they are not so outlandish -- read his books about nutrition and he's largely just telling you that you need vitamins, whole grains etc., carbohydrates ought to be the main source of energy etc. etc.: much of it is still repeated today, though maybe in a less eccentric tone. Samuel Enderby ( talk) 22:11, 13 June 2021 (UTC)
Schazjmd (talk) 17:45, 18 June 2021 (UTC)The Graphic was the brainchild of publishing millionaire Bernarr Macfadden. While other publishing magnates like Pulitzer and Hearst may be been willful and even eccentric, Macfadden was a genuine crackpot. He believed that all illness could be cured by a combination of physical exercise and proper diet. In Macfadden's view, all doctors were "quacks". He thoroughly believed what he preached and it cost the lives of two of his children, who were denied proper medical treatment.
'tain't original research, Matthew. If you're so fastidious about the definition of "interpretation" as to insist that what I'm doing is "interpretation" not simply applying the Law of Identity, how about we say "Macfadden thought all doctors were quacks and that all health problems could be fixed by eating right[cite journalist]. M'fadden believed that a competent physician should be present in the event that a catheter needs to be inserted [cite the man himself]." Let the readers sort it out for themselves...? He references practicing physicians, albeit mostly for their scientific contributions, but nonetheless indicating that he don't see them as QUACKS. If we resign ourselves to trusting "a historian" then this hypostatized ideal of a historian ought at least to have glanced across a few of these pages, which your journalists don't seem to have done. Again: they mention him anecdotally or in passing. Always (it seems) in the character of "Bernarr Macfadden, who thought that doctors were quacks and on that account sent two of his children to the glue factory, presided over a considerable amount of public influence in the '20s..." They're hardly authoritative, nor do they seem to pretend to be on this point. Samuel Enderby ( talk) 06:19, 24 June 2021 (UTC)
Throughout the five volume work harsh words for doctors abound, but the chapter entitled 'Medicine, the Science of Guessing' gives a focus. Plainly Macfadden found as many absurdities in the medical literature as his doctor readers found in his.
Hunt describes him asThe big problem with the profession, in Macfadden's view, was that doctors in their commercial greed turned away from the principles of Hippocrates. Hippocrates found diseases in the fluids of the body--as did Macfadden. One cannot improve on Hippocrates.
generally antagonistic to medical opinion. He writes
Quacks and other foes of the AMA like Macfadden labored persistently to convince the public that the AMA was suspect on all fronts--and were remarkably successful.
Macfadden, by his own admision, was utterly innocent of scientific training yet pontificated and advertised himself nationally as a health expert--even daring to diagnose and prescribe by letter.
Macfadden announced the establishment of the American Protective League, dedicated to saving people from "absolute autocracy", and inviting members to help him save the country from the doctors. "Are you going to submit to medical tyranny?", Macfadden asked the public.
Schazjmd (talk) 13:57, 24 June 2021 (UTC)Cramp explained Macfadden's tactic: "After damning the medical profession from Dan to Beersheba, and thus playing for the support of all the cultists, faddists, and quacks, he now turns around and attempts to get the doctors to say that they believe in his particular brand of physical culture. Those who are will to admit this he will 'recommend' as physicians who are safe to go to. It should be quite obvious that any recommendation from Bernarr Macfadden is a heavy liability for a decent physician."
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Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Bernarr Macfadden. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 15:28, 31 October 2016 (UTC)
Let's discuss this. From my perspective, at least the bit about MacFadden distrusting medical science should be in the lead (by my count, 3 RSs mention it). I do not know whether or not the daugthers' deaths should go there, but I would lean toward "no," since it is not primarily what he was known for, and it's still unclear to me if all three of those RS mention that incident specifically.
I do not see how the cited sources are "shaky", as one editor puts it. Are there scholarly, secondary sources that refute them? If not, each one is sufficiently reliable, even though they are journalistic/non-scholarly.-- MattMauler ( talk) 17:05, 13 June 2021 (UTC)
I myself am perhaps a bit shaky in my age but what I meant was that the sources were written and published quite some time after the death and Macfadden's alleged scorning of it but do not to my knowledge directly cite their own source for this claim. They do seem to be rely-able sources in general but sources to be relied upon entirely regarding this point they are not! It seems they reference Macfadden in passing; fine books perhaps but the manner in which they bring him up and put him down does not take the character of an assertion of exclusive fact, which we need for a Wikipedia source (no?). There's probably a kernel of fact here but if the sources are reliable then there should be something better to relied upon for it, viz. that which they relied upon: they are likely at least exaggerating for narrative purposes, harmless in their own context but unduly damaging when promoted elsewhere...? I mean that just as his "distrust for medical science" seems to be very exaggerated; in his own books and he cites doctors and occasionally even recommends that his readers consult them. Maybe worth noting as well that while his health recommendations do seem compatible with a contempt for medicine when looked upon in our time, they were somewhat consistent with contemporaneous mainstream views. Even then they are not so outlandish -- read his books about nutrition and he's largely just telling you that you need vitamins, whole grains etc., carbohydrates ought to be the main source of energy etc. etc.: much of it is still repeated today, though maybe in a less eccentric tone. Samuel Enderby ( talk) 22:11, 13 June 2021 (UTC)
Schazjmd (talk) 17:45, 18 June 2021 (UTC)The Graphic was the brainchild of publishing millionaire Bernarr Macfadden. While other publishing magnates like Pulitzer and Hearst may be been willful and even eccentric, Macfadden was a genuine crackpot. He believed that all illness could be cured by a combination of physical exercise and proper diet. In Macfadden's view, all doctors were "quacks". He thoroughly believed what he preached and it cost the lives of two of his children, who were denied proper medical treatment.
'tain't original research, Matthew. If you're so fastidious about the definition of "interpretation" as to insist that what I'm doing is "interpretation" not simply applying the Law of Identity, how about we say "Macfadden thought all doctors were quacks and that all health problems could be fixed by eating right[cite journalist]. M'fadden believed that a competent physician should be present in the event that a catheter needs to be inserted [cite the man himself]." Let the readers sort it out for themselves...? He references practicing physicians, albeit mostly for their scientific contributions, but nonetheless indicating that he don't see them as QUACKS. If we resign ourselves to trusting "a historian" then this hypostatized ideal of a historian ought at least to have glanced across a few of these pages, which your journalists don't seem to have done. Again: they mention him anecdotally or in passing. Always (it seems) in the character of "Bernarr Macfadden, who thought that doctors were quacks and on that account sent two of his children to the glue factory, presided over a considerable amount of public influence in the '20s..." They're hardly authoritative, nor do they seem to pretend to be on this point. Samuel Enderby ( talk) 06:19, 24 June 2021 (UTC)
Throughout the five volume work harsh words for doctors abound, but the chapter entitled 'Medicine, the Science of Guessing' gives a focus. Plainly Macfadden found as many absurdities in the medical literature as his doctor readers found in his.
Hunt describes him asThe big problem with the profession, in Macfadden's view, was that doctors in their commercial greed turned away from the principles of Hippocrates. Hippocrates found diseases in the fluids of the body--as did Macfadden. One cannot improve on Hippocrates.
generally antagonistic to medical opinion. He writes
Quacks and other foes of the AMA like Macfadden labored persistently to convince the public that the AMA was suspect on all fronts--and were remarkably successful.
Macfadden, by his own admision, was utterly innocent of scientific training yet pontificated and advertised himself nationally as a health expert--even daring to diagnose and prescribe by letter.
Macfadden announced the establishment of the American Protective League, dedicated to saving people from "absolute autocracy", and inviting members to help him save the country from the doctors. "Are you going to submit to medical tyranny?", Macfadden asked the public.
Schazjmd (talk) 13:57, 24 June 2021 (UTC)Cramp explained Macfadden's tactic: "After damning the medical profession from Dan to Beersheba, and thus playing for the support of all the cultists, faddists, and quacks, he now turns around and attempts to get the doctors to say that they believe in his particular brand of physical culture. Those who are will to admit this he will 'recommend' as physicians who are safe to go to. It should be quite obvious that any recommendation from Bernarr Macfadden is a heavy liability for a decent physician."