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Why has the author missed Treptower Park? If he or she thinks that soviet soldiers do not deserve any respect, at list he or she should have recognised their existance. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Freenation ( talk • contribs) 22:37, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
This article was formerly listed as a good article, but was removed from the listing because Soviet War memorial at Treptower Park is not listed anywhere in the article.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Freenation ( talk • contribs) 22:44, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
The missing monument is the most unsufficient argument I ever heard. Who lead the discussion on denomination and where is that publicised ? Sashandre
The section on schools needs expansion. Education in Germany lists all sorts of things that vary from state to state in Germany; what is the state of affairs in Berlin? Also, the article currently says that secondary schooling lasts 6 years, but that can't be true across the board: again according to Education in Germany, Hauptschulen go to 9th grade, Realschulen to 10th grade, and Gymnasien to 12th or 13th grade. If they each start in 7th grade, then Hauptschule lasts 3 years, Realschule 4, and Gymnasium 6 or 7. Again, what is the situation in Berlin? Angr ( talk • contribs) 19:07, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
I would be in favor of renaming "Zoos, botanical gardens, parks" simply "Green spaces" and discussing Berlin's forests as well. Not many cities have as high a percentage of their land dedicated to forest as Berlin. It's true in both parts of the city, but a friend of mine who grew up in West Berlin said having so much forestland where you felt like you were completely out of the city was "what kept us sane" during the years that West Berlin was walled in and it was impossible to take a day trip outside the city limits. I'll see what I can do myself, but I don't have a lot of free time, so I'll need help if other people agree this would be a valuable addition to the article. I certainly think it's something that makes Berlin different from most other large cities in industrialized countries. Angr ( talk • contribs) 19:49, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
"Green spaces" seems not specific to me, a sentence about the forest character of Berlin should be there. Either in "Setting" or "parks". Sashandre
City bounderies of Berlin include big forest and lakeside areas, I think that should be mentioned in the Setting-section( or Geography, but that would be doubled). Parks and Botanical Gardens are purely cultivated through science ,design and political will, a clear case for me to be in culture. Sashandre
I also think it would be better to list all parks under "Green spaces", but I think the problem lies somewhere else. English speakers don´t use the "Begriff" "Kultur" in the same way as Germans do. Just to translate it to "Culture" doesn´t mean it sounds right to English ears.. Therefore "Green spaces" seems to me the best way to include forests and parks and the Berliner saying "ins jrüne"! IsarSteve
Sashandre, I don't understand why you removed Image:BerlinEastSpree.jpg but left Image:Spreebad kl.jpg. Not only is the first a much better-quality photo (higher resolution, fewer distracting artifacts), it much better illustrates the Spree in relation to the city, showing as it does such Kennzeichen as the Oberbaumbrücke and the Molecule Men--only in the distant background, granted, but the second photo doesn't have anything distinctly Berlin in it. No one who knows Berlin could possibly mistake the first picture for Warsaw. (Neither could anyone who knows Warsaw, I'll warrant.) Angr ( talk • contribs) 20:48, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
Hi Angr, I´d love to have a satellite-photo or at least an aerial view of Spree-Berlin-Characterstics but this here is just to foggy.I can hardly identify Oberbaum or Treptowers. It could be any central european city for non Berliners. The current picture has simply a combination of Spree / Recreational/ and former Industrial areas. By far not perfect but at least crisp and in focus. By the way, very contemporary as well... Sashandre all the best
Sashandre, I'm disappointed you felt the need to remove my image - I spent some time considering whether to add it or not, but I felt it worthwhile in the end... The whole article only contains images of "things", there's not a single image that shows a wide view of Berlin. Berlin is a large, flat city, with a huge range of things (residential, commercial, industrial, rail, waterways, roads), all of which were shown in that photo. I added it because I felt the article needed an 'overview' of the setting. And, while I'll admit it could be better in terms of clarity, I felt it sufficiently good for these purposes. I'd be interested in other opinions, but I'm minded to put it back. AlanFord 22:13, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
Hi AlanFord, you are right! Berlin is flat and Berlin needs a satellite-photo or at least an aerial view. But we need one from the city centre and not from the outskirts. The photo quality (foggy) also can´t meet the high standard on this page, so it lacks on significance and on quality. Both together adds to no appropriate improvement. Sashandre all the best for you
I have requested Fair use review concerning the use of the Berlinale logo in this article. Angr ( talk • contribs) 21:11, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
I´m fine with that. I think it can stand it . see also BBC on London page! Sashandre
Well, the body of my parents' relative among the bodies of other 20,000 soldiers rests under that 'insufficient monument'. And every bloody year, I visit the city to pay the tribute to those whom, as I belive, I owe a lot. And the author of this article, since he or she writes about Berlin, must know everything, or at leats a lot about the city. Yet, the huge park, which is not a steet light, was not mentioned in the artice, as if it had never existed. Finally, the fact that such huge monument had not been mentioned in the artice, is called 'insufficient argument'. I wonder if the Holocaust Memorial or Museum of Indian Art was missing in the article, would the remark about its absence be 'insufficient argument' as well?
IsarSteve, what exactly is "degrading" about the photo of Klaus Wowereit you removed? He obviously didn't consider it degrading or he wouldn't have posed for it. I think a photograph of the openly gay mayor at a gay pride event standing beside a drag queen who has just been crowned Miss CSD illustrates Berlin's personality perfectly. Angr ( talk • contribs) 23:25, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
1.I agree with Angr on the mayor picture, it is the only people picture anyway... I´m also about restoring the Kiez-Kastanienallee-picture, it illustrates the context and is one of most famous neighbourhoods as well. 2.I have to question the new nightlife paragraph. There is no need telling history or nonexisting clubs in this section. I´m about to delete it. Sashandre all the best for you
Would Diepgen have posed for a photograph with "Miss German Tits & Bum 1994" in the first place? This isn't a candid shot where Wowereit happened to be in the same frame with the DQ, they are standing together for the explicit purpose of having their picture taken together. Angr ( talk • contribs) 00:07, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
Even not being gay one can reckognise that Wowereit´s attitude is a broader approach to represent the city´s state of mind.Time magazine called him #Glamour Guy#, the picture captures that. Prenzlauer Berg is the focus Stadtteil of german & international immigration in the last 15 years. It is widely regarded as home to the new arts of all kinds, especially Kastanienallee( also known as Castingallee). The picture illustrates the fact of having large Boroughs made of several Stadteile, as described in the text. Sashandre
OK if you think so, but an image of Schloss Charlottenburg would do the same thing, be more interesting and also illustrate a Berlin touri-attraction. The new Borough of Wilmersdorf-Charlottenburg has all the same qualities as Pankow, more so in fact, in that has seen an enormous intake of Russians since 1989, not to mention the use of Charlottengrad. IsarSteve 08:01, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
Berlin is a multicentered, multi-lifestyled and multihistoric metropolis; the article should provide a broad view on that.There is no real Berlin. Emphasizing the map is fine for me, but having a Kiez picture is appropriate as well.It covers the typical Gründerzeit housing and is spread in all of the city. There is simply no other other high quality pic available which captures a situation like that.By the way ,Kreuzberg was rather home to counter-culture and not the arts. Sashandre
I´d like to change the use of " GDR " in the article to " East Germany ", which I think is the term most commonly used (and understood) in the English speaking world, to denote The " Deutsche Demokratische Republik ". Therefore, before I do so, I´d like your comments. IsarSteve 01:23, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
Its not the entertaining issue, but I think we need a visual representation (Memorial) of the Third Reich. The site is by now one of the most visited in Berlin. It features a Documentation center (kind of museum). I´m going to put it back in Museum section, where it once was ... Sashandre
The glass dome itself is one of maybe 5 iconic landmarks of the city this cant be neglected. Sashandre
The dome inside has singular value and is of iconic quality. The situation now in the #famous sights# -section is not satisfiying, showing 2 second-level sights related to WW2.The museum section is not perfect but what is on this page. If we can´t find a solution I suggest keeping the glass dome. Sashandre
For the time being the World Cup is the most dominant event on Earth. A modern internet-encyclopedia can and should react on that, otherwise I could take a look in my Britannica and read about Nazis still in power... Afterwards it can be deleted again; thats contemporary Wikipedia. London is presenting the olympic logo !6 years! in advance .... Sashandre
I cant see any layout improvement. Both pictures where there before. Philharmonie has to be small because section is small. Shoe has to be in old position because the table looks better. It is so obvious don´t you think? Sashandre
Sashandre, why did you remove the {{ unsourcedsect}} tags from "Higher education, research" and "Economic trends"? Both sections need sources to back up their statistics. I also don't understand your removal of all West Berlin nightclubs. The only "nonexisting" nightclub in the section was the LaBelle; the others are still in operation. IsarSteve has already pointed out that this article exhibits a distinct East Berlin bias, and removing the West Berlin nightclubs just makes it even less NPOV. Calling it a "highly volatile section" is just laughable -- I only added that paragraph yesterday, and no one touched it until you deleted it. That's not "volatile". You also removed my request for expansion from the "Schools" section. That section is pitifully small now and contains nothing of interest at all; either it must be expanded or deleted altogether. The way it is now is simply a joke. Angr ( t • c) 21:38, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
see degrading disc./ see 1920 Berlin/ see Roaring twenties/ Cant find {{ unsourcedsect}} tags in 30 major cities around the globe/ There is no West-Berlin anymore, nor East-Berlin. Only high & low significance. The West has historically a low one.Volatile refers to sec. changing. If there is something to expand or to be referenced, do it. Remove Palace or I do it! Sashandre all the best for you
I haven´t amended this section yet... but due to the recent friction over deletions etc., I want to put a few points forward: In this section, it is mentioned that
I´d like your opinions on whether these points should be changed.. IsarSteve 22:06, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
1. without Germany, Prussia certainly 2. neoclassical 3. see Politics ....all the best
Thanks for your comments, my problem is, I still can´t see Unter den Linden as a symbol of anything. It´s a nice place to be.. but a symbol? of what? of town planning perhaps?? IsarSteve 10:48, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
Berlin is NOT the second biggest city in Europe as written in the article. Rome, Paris, London are definately bigger and many other cities as well...—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Danieldk ( talk • contribs) 22:59, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
I tried to update Berlin >Famous Sights today, but the edit was almost immediately reversed by some "unknown" person. At the moment Alexanderplatz reads as follows:-
It just makes you cringe to read it.. Whether as square can feature something, is open to debate, but the next sentence that the centrum store was the GDR´s (remember we also agreed to call it East Germany"), department store. So because this "Unknown person" keeps reversing edits..I ask somebody else to re-write Alexanderplatz. I thought maybe on the lines :- Alexanderplatz named after a Russian Tsar, is about 200years old.. etc., Dominated by the station and two 1920s Buildings desingned by Peter Behrens etc.,
So please re-write this part of famous sights.. I´m going to blank it again right now.. IsarSteve 16:01, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
First of all it has to be said that the Brandenburg Gate picture is an excellent one which truly meets the criteria of style, quality and significance. But it focuses rather german history and fails to transport the message of an international, multicentered, global city. The half skyline picture including a station, the TV-Tower and a highrise building (center of commerce) can provide that. I can also report that this view is very much shared by an internet and my personal community (living abroad). Up to now I never used this argument in the last discussions , but I think it broadens the view this time.
Sashandre all the best
Major cities with multiple historical, cultural and architectural heritage can´t be reduced to one symbol. Berlin´s heterogenic landscape especially has many iconic buildings. Thats why a skyline-picture containing various elements is used by most of the global cities.It avoids the focus on one aspect of the city and provides a panorama impression. I have to reject the argument that there is only a trainstation. We do see the TV-Tower which has iconic quality and is dominating the face of the city. The River Spree is also a part of the picture as well as a highrise building which are both shaping the city´s appearance. The Brandenburg Gate in all other languages has been introduced by myself to start with at least one picture.... The English-Berlin WP is a reference language and should be more than that ,providing a cosmopolitan image of the lead picture Sashandre
First I have to admit I've been the one changing the main image to Brandenburg Gate a few times the last couple of days. Instead I should have begun a discussion about it. Sorry for that.
Living abroad and not in Berlin anymore, I can state that people, asked for a symbol of Berlin, mostly name the Brandenburg Gate. It is THE symbol for the division and reunification of Berlin.
The picture of Bahnhof Friedrichstraße is definately a quite nice one, but absolutely inadequate as a the needed strong symbol of Berlin. Television towers exist all over the world, and train stations too. Almost nobody outside of Berlin - and even some people in Berlin - would recognize this photo as taken in Berlin.
And I have to reject your impression that the television tower "is dominating the face of the city". It dominates surely the borough of Mitte, but not much more. The "cosmopolitan aspect" that you're talking about can surely be elaborated in the article.
82.123.218.171
14:02, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
There is no consensus at all I can sum up. Berlin´s heritage is one of the most diverse. This must be expressed in the lead picture. The question for THE symbol is not the appropriate one for the lead picture. Watch New York, Tokyo Chicago, Frankfurt, Hong Kong, Los Angeles, Singapore, Shanghai , Melbourne , Washington, D.C. All of these cities avoid THE symbol because they have many. And yes, the Tower dominates the most significant parts of Berlin. Sashandre
.......and move on. IsarSteve 23:00, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
one opinion has sympathy for the innercity-pic, one sees the problem of showing only B-Gate, one is without identification,one is for B-Gate and one (me) has strong arguments which haven´t been countered. Ergo no consensus at all and especially not pro B-Gate... Sashandre
NYC is not showing statue of liberty, San Francisco not Golden Gate, L.A. not the Hollywood sign.
Tokyo,Barcelona,Sydney also present not a single icon because there is a reason for it.
The lead picture is NOT the place for one symbol. Please respect this unwritten but very obvious
logic. Stop reducing the city to one symbol, it also denies the city´s multiple character. Thank you !
Sashandre all the best
The flickr picture would be definitely an improvement. It has my support. Ask him for this one [3] , too. Sashandre
I´m going to put the pronunciation of Berlin in the infobox. Eliminating is the second option . I don´t think this item has an important significance.It also destructs the fluent text. Sashandre
I was surprised not to read of the huge amoung of debt that Berlin has accumulated since the reunification. Even more was I surprised when I had to look around the German WP for quite a bit to find any information regarding the subject. Actually, I thought about including a short mentioning in the intro paragraphs. Berlin's debt has accumulated to rougly 60 billion Euros, and — it is claimed — that Berlin is virtually unable to rise out of this debt by themselves.. Even if this is not actually the case, most of the politics in Berlin are predetermined by this factor, a lot of the cultural institutions are endangered, the universities/public hospitals/... are cutting down on basically everything that's expensible... Using the words of Berlin's finance minister: "if Berlin were a private company, the city would have gone bankrupt long ago" [4] -- Johnnyw 16:51, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
No mention of the gay/lesbian subculture than thrived during the 1920's and was destroyed by the Nazis. Berlin had more gay/lesbian/trans bars and clubs in the 1920s than Toronto, Ontario, Canada does today. The movie Bent is about this, but I don't have a book or internet source to quote.
So, I just got back from a short trip to Viktoriapark, where I took some pictures of the skyline of Berlin. They're not great art, and unfortunately there aren't too many icons of Berlin visible from up there, but here they are anyway in case anyone sees fit to include them.
I also took the photos that I just added to Viktoriapark. Angr ( talk) 19:12, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
Making any article on a German subject into an article on the suffering of Jews is POV as well as anti-German racism. It is totally inappropriate to flood a brief history section with suffering of Jews, when other much more significant aspects of its history are only dealt with in a sentence, if adressed at all (all wartime destruction: one sentence. No mention of large numbers of refugees at all. No mention of massive Soviet war crimes against population of Berlin). This is an article about the city of Berlin. It is not an article about Auschwitz which is in Poland and not in Berlin. It is appropriate for a history section to mention that Berlin had a large Jewish population, and that it was for a large part destroyed. Details on Auschwitz etc. which is unrelated to the history of Berlin are to be left to the holocaust article.
The Soviet photo is a well known, staged war propaganda photo (perhaps one of the most famous from the war). It clearly needs to be identified as such, to not give the false impression that the photo was actually taken when Stalin's men actually entered the Reichstag, or taken by a neutral third party for neutral purposes. Just the way 21:33, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
The mentioned paragraph about the extinction of the jewish community seems not disproportionate to me. There might be overemphasizing in other german related articles but rather not in this one. In this case the city itself (Nazi government) decided to murder a relevant part of german-jewish culture of their own city society. This cultural life had been built up over centuries and was then ended. It is of significance for world history and especially of the city´s history. Sashandre
You tell me British slave trade that was carried out from London isn't relevant to London, because only some Black "sub-human beings" were victims, and not the British "masters"? Again we see different rules for Germany-related articles than articles of all other countries. Crimes of the British doesn't need to be mentioned in the article on their capital, while the article on the German capital must mostly deal with wrongdoings.
When you use 75 % of the space to describe wrongdoings against Jews, and 25 % to describe the entire rest of it's war-time history, you are flooding. Appropriate would be, say 20 % of the war-time description, and only thing specifically affecting Berlin (it had a large Jewish community, which was 170,000 and not 160 as you are claiming, that was destroyed). This is not the holocaust article. Things that has nothing to do with Berlin should not be mentioned. What happened in Poland belong in other articles than the Berlin article.
You don't mention the expulsion, are you going to deny the expulsion next? You don't mention terror bombing, are you going to deny that too? If the page is already twice as long as it ought to be, you should be cooperating on shortening it. In your version, one aspect of history is given disproportionate attention. If you want to keep such a lengthy description of wrongdoings, I will have to write ten times as much as the current version on other aspects of war-time history. Just the way 10:59, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Also, I see no reason why Image:Train station Berlin Friedrichstrasse 5.jpg should be on the top of the article. What is significant with that picture? I suggest the Brandenburg Gate should be kept (like this one). Just the way 21:52, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
Please stop changing 1918 to 1871. Berlin was the capital of the Kingdom of Prussia for its entire existence, from 1701 to 1918, and continued to be the capital of the Free State of Prussia thereafter. Just the way 22:02, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
Also please leave the link to the German Democratic Republic. The article is, after much discussion, located at German Democratic Republic, not "East Germany". German Democratic Republic is the correct name of the country. "East Germany" is 1) a colloquialism (just like "America" is for the United States of America), 2) POV, 3) ambigious. Just the way 22:09, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
"commonly known in English as East Germany" taken from the GDR page of wikipedia .... (it doesn't matter what it is called in German)
just the way, don't be offensive and bother people with your POV because it apparently isn't a NPOV (me=german)
84.189.204.155
23:33, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
A more suitable image needs to be found. Just because a person is gay, his sexual orientation doesn't need to be primary thing he is associated with as a politician. Representing him with a drag queen is heavily POV. A politician should be represented with a neutral photo. Just the way 22:16, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
I try contacting these photographers [5] (my favourite), [6], [7] and how about this one [8] ?
Sashandre all the best
The perfect picture is a daylight panorama, I agree. I spent hours to find one at flickr, but none could meet the standard. The current one is very close to quality we want ,I think. Sashandre all the best
He confirmed with an e-mail the new licence written in the Wikipedia/Commons rules and by CC-BY-SA-2.5 Standard. Sashandre
I agree on topic (1.),(4.),(5.). On (2.): A few more sentences in `setting´ may be in zoo,parks...are ok.Its not an important aspect. On (3.):LGBT is highly represented through picture and sentence,every other extention in new articles. On (6.): Citation has to be kept short. book template is not acceptable. On (7.): The lead is comparable to most of the city articles and covers the relevant parts. Details can be discussed. On (8.): Total disagreement.Length is widely tolerated because of exceptional article-status (also length of country-articles). Major City-articles vary from 50-80kb, Berlin has 63kb.The history section is very short in comparison and has very high relevance, especially 20th century Berlin. I´m going to delete this topic and (7.) from To-Do-List. Sashandre all the best
FA - Status is a desirable goal. I watch the development of around 40 global cities(city-articles) in engl.Wiki towards this aim.I also compare the development in 10 other Wiki-languages concerning city-articles.By now only 3 midsize cities/articles gained FA status ; Boston, Detroit, Michigan and Seattle. Given these ´models` (1.) and (5.)is a problem (6.) and (8.) is not,(7.) could be questioned. BUT, through my investigation I learned that FA status is very difficult to gain and to keep for the majority of global cities/articles for a number of reasons.One is a typical dilemma. How to present a city reasonable and based on facts AND show the relevance and the city´s character without exaggeration or disproportion. I like to develop a combination of both, without compromising one to much.To aim FA is not a contradiction. The Berlin-article is in many respects one of the very finest in the world of city-articles by now, with or without FA. I will support accuracy and expansion (certainly not more than 70kb) but will also keep the complex character of the articles content. Sorry, (7.) and (8.) can´t prevail. Sashandre all the best
It´s untrue .... watch the mentioned FA - cities, the current length is the smallest problem of all. Same for the leading 4 paragraphs ... what part is it exactly do you worry? Problem (1.),(4.)(5.) plus the not existing Economy-section seems much more urgent. Sashandre all the best
Well, you have seen it for yourself ...The FA-Rules are hardly working on city-articles because of the special premises.Though it is fine goal... As I said, only aiming to FA-status in terms of length will fail in this case.Nobody would have the idea to cut NYC,Paris,Los Angeles down to 40 kb.Even though there is still many room to improvement.And by the way , we didn´t even request FA-candidate, so it doesn´t make sense speculate about the outcome. Sashandre
The new tag has been added. Because of the recent grading debate I´d like to draw the attention to this page Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Assessment. The next step of upgrading could be A-class-status. Sashandre
At the very bottom of the page is a template named #Boroughs of Berlin#. How is it possible to modify it? Or, who is able to do it / or has access to it? The part 'Boroughs prior to 2001' needs to be deleted because it is outdated. Sashandre
There are also Berliners who want back the Berlin wall, or count in D-Mark ... The phrase has at least to be renamed in #Neighborhoods# within a new template. Sashandre
What real boroughs ? Any other name is fine for me too.The division East/West has to be deleted as well. Sashandre
Nazi-Kaiser-Kennedy-Berlin, whatever. Everything is interesting to anybody ! The Berlin wall is down for 18 years now. I don´t want to be forced creating a new template only because I cant find this one. The last option would be deletion
because of outdated facts. But this is not my interest ....
Sashandre
Berlin consists of 12 totally different Boroughs and even more different Stadtteile. Don´t speculate what Berlin thinks,just be factual correct, I know you are. Sashandre
Yeah, and Hitler still in power ... don´t disappoint me! I´m not not discussing this one. Fact is, there are Boroughs and no East and West, please delete this from the template when you are able to ,or I have to delete the whole one, thank you ,last sentence! Sashandre
If there are 100 people who say East Berlin is the still existing capital of the GDR , its still wrong. If you really think so, which I doubt, you might be better off taking a break. Sashandre
Sashandre in your latest purge, you deleted a Stendahl quotation, Now I´m not against pruning things per se, the quotation wasn´t that important, but you have now suceeded in deleting both mentions of "Märkische Sand" in the article. You seem to have an obsession of standardising everything. I feel your deletions make the article faceless, Berlin is Berlin but Chicago oder "sonst wo" is somewhere else, the articles shouldn´t all be the same. Being built on sand makes Berlin special, what other inland cities have beaches like Berlin?? No mention here!! A polite request from me, when you decide to delete something, think about what has been lost and try and add the (compressed) information somewhere else... -- IsarSteve 23:02, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Hi IsarSteve, good point. Please add a sentence on the inland beaches in #recreation# or about the sandy character in #Geography#. / I can´t share your opinion about standardisation or faceless´article,I feel the opposite. The article improves in complexity,character, quality and dephts in my eyes. Sashandre
Well, at least one good thing came out of having the World Cup Final as well as other important games in Berlin: There are now lots more Berlin photos at Flickr! I have just uploaded the following to Commons:
Which if any of these would we like to add to this article? User:Angr 11:13, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
I've compiled a list of links to many design institutions in Berlin (mesuems, agencies, schools, magazines, etc.), it is here — http://bact.blogspot.com/2006/07/design-city-berlin.html . -- 172.182.55.93 11:47, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Some of us English-speaking Wikipedians from Berlin are going to meet up in August. If you'd like to join us, sign up at Wikipedia:Meetup/Berlin. Lear 21 19:23, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Why has the author missed Treptower Park? If he or she thinks that soviet soldiers do not deserve any respect, at list he or she should have recognised their existance. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Freenation ( talk • contribs) 22:37, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
This article was formerly listed as a good article, but was removed from the listing because Soviet War memorial at Treptower Park is not listed anywhere in the article.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Freenation ( talk • contribs) 22:44, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
The missing monument is the most unsufficient argument I ever heard. Who lead the discussion on denomination and where is that publicised ? Sashandre
The section on schools needs expansion. Education in Germany lists all sorts of things that vary from state to state in Germany; what is the state of affairs in Berlin? Also, the article currently says that secondary schooling lasts 6 years, but that can't be true across the board: again according to Education in Germany, Hauptschulen go to 9th grade, Realschulen to 10th grade, and Gymnasien to 12th or 13th grade. If they each start in 7th grade, then Hauptschule lasts 3 years, Realschule 4, and Gymnasium 6 or 7. Again, what is the situation in Berlin? Angr ( talk • contribs) 19:07, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
I would be in favor of renaming "Zoos, botanical gardens, parks" simply "Green spaces" and discussing Berlin's forests as well. Not many cities have as high a percentage of their land dedicated to forest as Berlin. It's true in both parts of the city, but a friend of mine who grew up in West Berlin said having so much forestland where you felt like you were completely out of the city was "what kept us sane" during the years that West Berlin was walled in and it was impossible to take a day trip outside the city limits. I'll see what I can do myself, but I don't have a lot of free time, so I'll need help if other people agree this would be a valuable addition to the article. I certainly think it's something that makes Berlin different from most other large cities in industrialized countries. Angr ( talk • contribs) 19:49, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
"Green spaces" seems not specific to me, a sentence about the forest character of Berlin should be there. Either in "Setting" or "parks". Sashandre
City bounderies of Berlin include big forest and lakeside areas, I think that should be mentioned in the Setting-section( or Geography, but that would be doubled). Parks and Botanical Gardens are purely cultivated through science ,design and political will, a clear case for me to be in culture. Sashandre
I also think it would be better to list all parks under "Green spaces", but I think the problem lies somewhere else. English speakers don´t use the "Begriff" "Kultur" in the same way as Germans do. Just to translate it to "Culture" doesn´t mean it sounds right to English ears.. Therefore "Green spaces" seems to me the best way to include forests and parks and the Berliner saying "ins jrüne"! IsarSteve
Sashandre, I don't understand why you removed Image:BerlinEastSpree.jpg but left Image:Spreebad kl.jpg. Not only is the first a much better-quality photo (higher resolution, fewer distracting artifacts), it much better illustrates the Spree in relation to the city, showing as it does such Kennzeichen as the Oberbaumbrücke and the Molecule Men--only in the distant background, granted, but the second photo doesn't have anything distinctly Berlin in it. No one who knows Berlin could possibly mistake the first picture for Warsaw. (Neither could anyone who knows Warsaw, I'll warrant.) Angr ( talk • contribs) 20:48, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
Hi Angr, I´d love to have a satellite-photo or at least an aerial view of Spree-Berlin-Characterstics but this here is just to foggy.I can hardly identify Oberbaum or Treptowers. It could be any central european city for non Berliners. The current picture has simply a combination of Spree / Recreational/ and former Industrial areas. By far not perfect but at least crisp and in focus. By the way, very contemporary as well... Sashandre all the best
Sashandre, I'm disappointed you felt the need to remove my image - I spent some time considering whether to add it or not, but I felt it worthwhile in the end... The whole article only contains images of "things", there's not a single image that shows a wide view of Berlin. Berlin is a large, flat city, with a huge range of things (residential, commercial, industrial, rail, waterways, roads), all of which were shown in that photo. I added it because I felt the article needed an 'overview' of the setting. And, while I'll admit it could be better in terms of clarity, I felt it sufficiently good for these purposes. I'd be interested in other opinions, but I'm minded to put it back. AlanFord 22:13, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
Hi AlanFord, you are right! Berlin is flat and Berlin needs a satellite-photo or at least an aerial view. But we need one from the city centre and not from the outskirts. The photo quality (foggy) also can´t meet the high standard on this page, so it lacks on significance and on quality. Both together adds to no appropriate improvement. Sashandre all the best for you
I have requested Fair use review concerning the use of the Berlinale logo in this article. Angr ( talk • contribs) 21:11, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
I´m fine with that. I think it can stand it . see also BBC on London page! Sashandre
Well, the body of my parents' relative among the bodies of other 20,000 soldiers rests under that 'insufficient monument'. And every bloody year, I visit the city to pay the tribute to those whom, as I belive, I owe a lot. And the author of this article, since he or she writes about Berlin, must know everything, or at leats a lot about the city. Yet, the huge park, which is not a steet light, was not mentioned in the artice, as if it had never existed. Finally, the fact that such huge monument had not been mentioned in the artice, is called 'insufficient argument'. I wonder if the Holocaust Memorial or Museum of Indian Art was missing in the article, would the remark about its absence be 'insufficient argument' as well?
IsarSteve, what exactly is "degrading" about the photo of Klaus Wowereit you removed? He obviously didn't consider it degrading or he wouldn't have posed for it. I think a photograph of the openly gay mayor at a gay pride event standing beside a drag queen who has just been crowned Miss CSD illustrates Berlin's personality perfectly. Angr ( talk • contribs) 23:25, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
1.I agree with Angr on the mayor picture, it is the only people picture anyway... I´m also about restoring the Kiez-Kastanienallee-picture, it illustrates the context and is one of most famous neighbourhoods as well. 2.I have to question the new nightlife paragraph. There is no need telling history or nonexisting clubs in this section. I´m about to delete it. Sashandre all the best for you
Would Diepgen have posed for a photograph with "Miss German Tits & Bum 1994" in the first place? This isn't a candid shot where Wowereit happened to be in the same frame with the DQ, they are standing together for the explicit purpose of having their picture taken together. Angr ( talk • contribs) 00:07, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
Even not being gay one can reckognise that Wowereit´s attitude is a broader approach to represent the city´s state of mind.Time magazine called him #Glamour Guy#, the picture captures that. Prenzlauer Berg is the focus Stadtteil of german & international immigration in the last 15 years. It is widely regarded as home to the new arts of all kinds, especially Kastanienallee( also known as Castingallee). The picture illustrates the fact of having large Boroughs made of several Stadteile, as described in the text. Sashandre
OK if you think so, but an image of Schloss Charlottenburg would do the same thing, be more interesting and also illustrate a Berlin touri-attraction. The new Borough of Wilmersdorf-Charlottenburg has all the same qualities as Pankow, more so in fact, in that has seen an enormous intake of Russians since 1989, not to mention the use of Charlottengrad. IsarSteve 08:01, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
Berlin is a multicentered, multi-lifestyled and multihistoric metropolis; the article should provide a broad view on that.There is no real Berlin. Emphasizing the map is fine for me, but having a Kiez picture is appropriate as well.It covers the typical Gründerzeit housing and is spread in all of the city. There is simply no other other high quality pic available which captures a situation like that.By the way ,Kreuzberg was rather home to counter-culture and not the arts. Sashandre
I´d like to change the use of " GDR " in the article to " East Germany ", which I think is the term most commonly used (and understood) in the English speaking world, to denote The " Deutsche Demokratische Republik ". Therefore, before I do so, I´d like your comments. IsarSteve 01:23, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
Its not the entertaining issue, but I think we need a visual representation (Memorial) of the Third Reich. The site is by now one of the most visited in Berlin. It features a Documentation center (kind of museum). I´m going to put it back in Museum section, where it once was ... Sashandre
The glass dome itself is one of maybe 5 iconic landmarks of the city this cant be neglected. Sashandre
The dome inside has singular value and is of iconic quality. The situation now in the #famous sights# -section is not satisfiying, showing 2 second-level sights related to WW2.The museum section is not perfect but what is on this page. If we can´t find a solution I suggest keeping the glass dome. Sashandre
For the time being the World Cup is the most dominant event on Earth. A modern internet-encyclopedia can and should react on that, otherwise I could take a look in my Britannica and read about Nazis still in power... Afterwards it can be deleted again; thats contemporary Wikipedia. London is presenting the olympic logo !6 years! in advance .... Sashandre
I cant see any layout improvement. Both pictures where there before. Philharmonie has to be small because section is small. Shoe has to be in old position because the table looks better. It is so obvious don´t you think? Sashandre
Sashandre, why did you remove the {{ unsourcedsect}} tags from "Higher education, research" and "Economic trends"? Both sections need sources to back up their statistics. I also don't understand your removal of all West Berlin nightclubs. The only "nonexisting" nightclub in the section was the LaBelle; the others are still in operation. IsarSteve has already pointed out that this article exhibits a distinct East Berlin bias, and removing the West Berlin nightclubs just makes it even less NPOV. Calling it a "highly volatile section" is just laughable -- I only added that paragraph yesterday, and no one touched it until you deleted it. That's not "volatile". You also removed my request for expansion from the "Schools" section. That section is pitifully small now and contains nothing of interest at all; either it must be expanded or deleted altogether. The way it is now is simply a joke. Angr ( t • c) 21:38, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
see degrading disc./ see 1920 Berlin/ see Roaring twenties/ Cant find {{ unsourcedsect}} tags in 30 major cities around the globe/ There is no West-Berlin anymore, nor East-Berlin. Only high & low significance. The West has historically a low one.Volatile refers to sec. changing. If there is something to expand or to be referenced, do it. Remove Palace or I do it! Sashandre all the best for you
I haven´t amended this section yet... but due to the recent friction over deletions etc., I want to put a few points forward: In this section, it is mentioned that
I´d like your opinions on whether these points should be changed.. IsarSteve 22:06, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
1. without Germany, Prussia certainly 2. neoclassical 3. see Politics ....all the best
Thanks for your comments, my problem is, I still can´t see Unter den Linden as a symbol of anything. It´s a nice place to be.. but a symbol? of what? of town planning perhaps?? IsarSteve 10:48, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
Berlin is NOT the second biggest city in Europe as written in the article. Rome, Paris, London are definately bigger and many other cities as well...—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Danieldk ( talk • contribs) 22:59, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
I tried to update Berlin >Famous Sights today, but the edit was almost immediately reversed by some "unknown" person. At the moment Alexanderplatz reads as follows:-
It just makes you cringe to read it.. Whether as square can feature something, is open to debate, but the next sentence that the centrum store was the GDR´s (remember we also agreed to call it East Germany"), department store. So because this "Unknown person" keeps reversing edits..I ask somebody else to re-write Alexanderplatz. I thought maybe on the lines :- Alexanderplatz named after a Russian Tsar, is about 200years old.. etc., Dominated by the station and two 1920s Buildings desingned by Peter Behrens etc.,
So please re-write this part of famous sights.. I´m going to blank it again right now.. IsarSteve 16:01, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
First of all it has to be said that the Brandenburg Gate picture is an excellent one which truly meets the criteria of style, quality and significance. But it focuses rather german history and fails to transport the message of an international, multicentered, global city. The half skyline picture including a station, the TV-Tower and a highrise building (center of commerce) can provide that. I can also report that this view is very much shared by an internet and my personal community (living abroad). Up to now I never used this argument in the last discussions , but I think it broadens the view this time.
Sashandre all the best
Major cities with multiple historical, cultural and architectural heritage can´t be reduced to one symbol. Berlin´s heterogenic landscape especially has many iconic buildings. Thats why a skyline-picture containing various elements is used by most of the global cities.It avoids the focus on one aspect of the city and provides a panorama impression. I have to reject the argument that there is only a trainstation. We do see the TV-Tower which has iconic quality and is dominating the face of the city. The River Spree is also a part of the picture as well as a highrise building which are both shaping the city´s appearance. The Brandenburg Gate in all other languages has been introduced by myself to start with at least one picture.... The English-Berlin WP is a reference language and should be more than that ,providing a cosmopolitan image of the lead picture Sashandre
First I have to admit I've been the one changing the main image to Brandenburg Gate a few times the last couple of days. Instead I should have begun a discussion about it. Sorry for that.
Living abroad and not in Berlin anymore, I can state that people, asked for a symbol of Berlin, mostly name the Brandenburg Gate. It is THE symbol for the division and reunification of Berlin.
The picture of Bahnhof Friedrichstraße is definately a quite nice one, but absolutely inadequate as a the needed strong symbol of Berlin. Television towers exist all over the world, and train stations too. Almost nobody outside of Berlin - and even some people in Berlin - would recognize this photo as taken in Berlin.
And I have to reject your impression that the television tower "is dominating the face of the city". It dominates surely the borough of Mitte, but not much more. The "cosmopolitan aspect" that you're talking about can surely be elaborated in the article.
82.123.218.171
14:02, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
There is no consensus at all I can sum up. Berlin´s heritage is one of the most diverse. This must be expressed in the lead picture. The question for THE symbol is not the appropriate one for the lead picture. Watch New York, Tokyo Chicago, Frankfurt, Hong Kong, Los Angeles, Singapore, Shanghai , Melbourne , Washington, D.C. All of these cities avoid THE symbol because they have many. And yes, the Tower dominates the most significant parts of Berlin. Sashandre
.......and move on. IsarSteve 23:00, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
one opinion has sympathy for the innercity-pic, one sees the problem of showing only B-Gate, one is without identification,one is for B-Gate and one (me) has strong arguments which haven´t been countered. Ergo no consensus at all and especially not pro B-Gate... Sashandre
NYC is not showing statue of liberty, San Francisco not Golden Gate, L.A. not the Hollywood sign.
Tokyo,Barcelona,Sydney also present not a single icon because there is a reason for it.
The lead picture is NOT the place for one symbol. Please respect this unwritten but very obvious
logic. Stop reducing the city to one symbol, it also denies the city´s multiple character. Thank you !
Sashandre all the best
The flickr picture would be definitely an improvement. It has my support. Ask him for this one [3] , too. Sashandre
I´m going to put the pronunciation of Berlin in the infobox. Eliminating is the second option . I don´t think this item has an important significance.It also destructs the fluent text. Sashandre
I was surprised not to read of the huge amoung of debt that Berlin has accumulated since the reunification. Even more was I surprised when I had to look around the German WP for quite a bit to find any information regarding the subject. Actually, I thought about including a short mentioning in the intro paragraphs. Berlin's debt has accumulated to rougly 60 billion Euros, and — it is claimed — that Berlin is virtually unable to rise out of this debt by themselves.. Even if this is not actually the case, most of the politics in Berlin are predetermined by this factor, a lot of the cultural institutions are endangered, the universities/public hospitals/... are cutting down on basically everything that's expensible... Using the words of Berlin's finance minister: "if Berlin were a private company, the city would have gone bankrupt long ago" [4] -- Johnnyw 16:51, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
No mention of the gay/lesbian subculture than thrived during the 1920's and was destroyed by the Nazis. Berlin had more gay/lesbian/trans bars and clubs in the 1920s than Toronto, Ontario, Canada does today. The movie Bent is about this, but I don't have a book or internet source to quote.
So, I just got back from a short trip to Viktoriapark, where I took some pictures of the skyline of Berlin. They're not great art, and unfortunately there aren't too many icons of Berlin visible from up there, but here they are anyway in case anyone sees fit to include them.
I also took the photos that I just added to Viktoriapark. Angr ( talk) 19:12, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
Making any article on a German subject into an article on the suffering of Jews is POV as well as anti-German racism. It is totally inappropriate to flood a brief history section with suffering of Jews, when other much more significant aspects of its history are only dealt with in a sentence, if adressed at all (all wartime destruction: one sentence. No mention of large numbers of refugees at all. No mention of massive Soviet war crimes against population of Berlin). This is an article about the city of Berlin. It is not an article about Auschwitz which is in Poland and not in Berlin. It is appropriate for a history section to mention that Berlin had a large Jewish population, and that it was for a large part destroyed. Details on Auschwitz etc. which is unrelated to the history of Berlin are to be left to the holocaust article.
The Soviet photo is a well known, staged war propaganda photo (perhaps one of the most famous from the war). It clearly needs to be identified as such, to not give the false impression that the photo was actually taken when Stalin's men actually entered the Reichstag, or taken by a neutral third party for neutral purposes. Just the way 21:33, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
The mentioned paragraph about the extinction of the jewish community seems not disproportionate to me. There might be overemphasizing in other german related articles but rather not in this one. In this case the city itself (Nazi government) decided to murder a relevant part of german-jewish culture of their own city society. This cultural life had been built up over centuries and was then ended. It is of significance for world history and especially of the city´s history. Sashandre
You tell me British slave trade that was carried out from London isn't relevant to London, because only some Black "sub-human beings" were victims, and not the British "masters"? Again we see different rules for Germany-related articles than articles of all other countries. Crimes of the British doesn't need to be mentioned in the article on their capital, while the article on the German capital must mostly deal with wrongdoings.
When you use 75 % of the space to describe wrongdoings against Jews, and 25 % to describe the entire rest of it's war-time history, you are flooding. Appropriate would be, say 20 % of the war-time description, and only thing specifically affecting Berlin (it had a large Jewish community, which was 170,000 and not 160 as you are claiming, that was destroyed). This is not the holocaust article. Things that has nothing to do with Berlin should not be mentioned. What happened in Poland belong in other articles than the Berlin article.
You don't mention the expulsion, are you going to deny the expulsion next? You don't mention terror bombing, are you going to deny that too? If the page is already twice as long as it ought to be, you should be cooperating on shortening it. In your version, one aspect of history is given disproportionate attention. If you want to keep such a lengthy description of wrongdoings, I will have to write ten times as much as the current version on other aspects of war-time history. Just the way 10:59, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Also, I see no reason why Image:Train station Berlin Friedrichstrasse 5.jpg should be on the top of the article. What is significant with that picture? I suggest the Brandenburg Gate should be kept (like this one). Just the way 21:52, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
Please stop changing 1918 to 1871. Berlin was the capital of the Kingdom of Prussia for its entire existence, from 1701 to 1918, and continued to be the capital of the Free State of Prussia thereafter. Just the way 22:02, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
Also please leave the link to the German Democratic Republic. The article is, after much discussion, located at German Democratic Republic, not "East Germany". German Democratic Republic is the correct name of the country. "East Germany" is 1) a colloquialism (just like "America" is for the United States of America), 2) POV, 3) ambigious. Just the way 22:09, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
"commonly known in English as East Germany" taken from the GDR page of wikipedia .... (it doesn't matter what it is called in German)
just the way, don't be offensive and bother people with your POV because it apparently isn't a NPOV (me=german)
84.189.204.155
23:33, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
A more suitable image needs to be found. Just because a person is gay, his sexual orientation doesn't need to be primary thing he is associated with as a politician. Representing him with a drag queen is heavily POV. A politician should be represented with a neutral photo. Just the way 22:16, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
I try contacting these photographers [5] (my favourite), [6], [7] and how about this one [8] ?
Sashandre all the best
The perfect picture is a daylight panorama, I agree. I spent hours to find one at flickr, but none could meet the standard. The current one is very close to quality we want ,I think. Sashandre all the best
He confirmed with an e-mail the new licence written in the Wikipedia/Commons rules and by CC-BY-SA-2.5 Standard. Sashandre
I agree on topic (1.),(4.),(5.). On (2.): A few more sentences in `setting´ may be in zoo,parks...are ok.Its not an important aspect. On (3.):LGBT is highly represented through picture and sentence,every other extention in new articles. On (6.): Citation has to be kept short. book template is not acceptable. On (7.): The lead is comparable to most of the city articles and covers the relevant parts. Details can be discussed. On (8.): Total disagreement.Length is widely tolerated because of exceptional article-status (also length of country-articles). Major City-articles vary from 50-80kb, Berlin has 63kb.The history section is very short in comparison and has very high relevance, especially 20th century Berlin. I´m going to delete this topic and (7.) from To-Do-List. Sashandre all the best
FA - Status is a desirable goal. I watch the development of around 40 global cities(city-articles) in engl.Wiki towards this aim.I also compare the development in 10 other Wiki-languages concerning city-articles.By now only 3 midsize cities/articles gained FA status ; Boston, Detroit, Michigan and Seattle. Given these ´models` (1.) and (5.)is a problem (6.) and (8.) is not,(7.) could be questioned. BUT, through my investigation I learned that FA status is very difficult to gain and to keep for the majority of global cities/articles for a number of reasons.One is a typical dilemma. How to present a city reasonable and based on facts AND show the relevance and the city´s character without exaggeration or disproportion. I like to develop a combination of both, without compromising one to much.To aim FA is not a contradiction. The Berlin-article is in many respects one of the very finest in the world of city-articles by now, with or without FA. I will support accuracy and expansion (certainly not more than 70kb) but will also keep the complex character of the articles content. Sorry, (7.) and (8.) can´t prevail. Sashandre all the best
It´s untrue .... watch the mentioned FA - cities, the current length is the smallest problem of all. Same for the leading 4 paragraphs ... what part is it exactly do you worry? Problem (1.),(4.)(5.) plus the not existing Economy-section seems much more urgent. Sashandre all the best
Well, you have seen it for yourself ...The FA-Rules are hardly working on city-articles because of the special premises.Though it is fine goal... As I said, only aiming to FA-status in terms of length will fail in this case.Nobody would have the idea to cut NYC,Paris,Los Angeles down to 40 kb.Even though there is still many room to improvement.And by the way , we didn´t even request FA-candidate, so it doesn´t make sense speculate about the outcome. Sashandre
The new tag has been added. Because of the recent grading debate I´d like to draw the attention to this page Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Assessment. The next step of upgrading could be A-class-status. Sashandre
At the very bottom of the page is a template named #Boroughs of Berlin#. How is it possible to modify it? Or, who is able to do it / or has access to it? The part 'Boroughs prior to 2001' needs to be deleted because it is outdated. Sashandre
There are also Berliners who want back the Berlin wall, or count in D-Mark ... The phrase has at least to be renamed in #Neighborhoods# within a new template. Sashandre
What real boroughs ? Any other name is fine for me too.The division East/West has to be deleted as well. Sashandre
Nazi-Kaiser-Kennedy-Berlin, whatever. Everything is interesting to anybody ! The Berlin wall is down for 18 years now. I don´t want to be forced creating a new template only because I cant find this one. The last option would be deletion
because of outdated facts. But this is not my interest ....
Sashandre
Berlin consists of 12 totally different Boroughs and even more different Stadtteile. Don´t speculate what Berlin thinks,just be factual correct, I know you are. Sashandre
Yeah, and Hitler still in power ... don´t disappoint me! I´m not not discussing this one. Fact is, there are Boroughs and no East and West, please delete this from the template when you are able to ,or I have to delete the whole one, thank you ,last sentence! Sashandre
If there are 100 people who say East Berlin is the still existing capital of the GDR , its still wrong. If you really think so, which I doubt, you might be better off taking a break. Sashandre
Sashandre in your latest purge, you deleted a Stendahl quotation, Now I´m not against pruning things per se, the quotation wasn´t that important, but you have now suceeded in deleting both mentions of "Märkische Sand" in the article. You seem to have an obsession of standardising everything. I feel your deletions make the article faceless, Berlin is Berlin but Chicago oder "sonst wo" is somewhere else, the articles shouldn´t all be the same. Being built on sand makes Berlin special, what other inland cities have beaches like Berlin?? No mention here!! A polite request from me, when you decide to delete something, think about what has been lost and try and add the (compressed) information somewhere else... -- IsarSteve 23:02, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Hi IsarSteve, good point. Please add a sentence on the inland beaches in #recreation# or about the sandy character in #Geography#. / I can´t share your opinion about standardisation or faceless´article,I feel the opposite. The article improves in complexity,character, quality and dephts in my eyes. Sashandre
Well, at least one good thing came out of having the World Cup Final as well as other important games in Berlin: There are now lots more Berlin photos at Flickr! I have just uploaded the following to Commons:
Which if any of these would we like to add to this article? User:Angr 11:13, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
I've compiled a list of links to many design institutions in Berlin (mesuems, agencies, schools, magazines, etc.), it is here — http://bact.blogspot.com/2006/07/design-city-berlin.html . -- 172.182.55.93 11:47, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Some of us English-speaking Wikipedians from Berlin are going to meet up in August. If you'd like to join us, sign up at Wikipedia:Meetup/Berlin. Lear 21 19:23, 24 July 2006 (UTC)